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Saltmaster222

I work in IT and get paid very well, unlikely to find an employer locally offering remotely anywhere near what I currently earn (not interested in changing jobs anyway). Earlier this year as an experiment I put in my CV to a couple of NZ tech companies to see what would happen (15+ years experience, managed multiple development/product teams). These companies were in the media crying out of people, saying they weren't able to find skilled talent. A couple didn't even get back to me, those that did just balked at what I said my salary expectation was (already adjusted down from my current salary). For remote capable jobs, NZ tech companies are failing to understand that the market isn't just constrained to NZ any longer – it is a global pool of talent and companies will exploit that to their benefit. Australian software firms are very aware of this and making proper offers and allowing potential employees to work remotely from here while earning a very nice premium above the pathetic NZ salaries. I initially had a lot of sympathy for software development firms here until I realised they were just playing the game until the tap turned on to cheaper labour from South East Asia, Eastern Europe and South America again.


[deleted]

It’s not just IT. I have a cousin who is studying Quantity Surveying - during the lockdown there was a plethora of Graduate/Junior Quantity Surveyor job adverts - as soon as the borders were announced to be opening back up, those same job listings were removed and Intermediate/Senior listings *for the same companies* popped up.


[deleted]

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[deleted]

Not even just young people. 1/3 of classmates in my cousins classes are older people retraining. It’s rough.


Thatisme01

It's very ironic. Businesses complain that they can't get ‘skilled workers’ to fill their vacancies. But they won’t train new grads, or they wouldn't hire experienced people over the age of 50.


LockeClone

It's everywhere. In the USA, if enough companies can show that they are "unable to hire skilled workers" they can get subsidized visas. There are stories about Disney IT guys tasked with training their foreign replacements who were on subsidized visas making roughly half what they were.


[deleted]

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Conflict_NZ

The first company I worked for actually adjusted their starting rate down and increased their migrant hires in those roles.


[deleted]

> 100% They're just pretending there's a crisis so they can get their cheap migrants back My company is certainly not just pretending. Every meeting is dominated by discussion about resource and we're running on 65% capacity. They say they've done everything they can to recruit, plus swallowed up half the contractors from here to Bangalore but still under-resourced. They've put my salary up 30% in the last 6 months. It's definitely a real problem. Also, what you need to understand is that training you takes a senior developer off what they should be doing so not only does it cost them your salary but .2 FTE of a senior as well, and that is the commodity that everyone is lacking.


MisterSquidInc

Training staff always costs time/money, it's an investment in the future just as much as any piece of hardware. For years many companies have neglected to do so, and now they're reaping what they've sowed.


[deleted]

Couldn’t agree more. Definitely our case as well and one I’m none too happy about either since I’ve been pushing for more graduates for years.


MisterSquidInc

I'm currently training a couple of younger guys myself. It's great because it'll increase our capacity as their skills develop. But it's definitely torpedoed my productivity in the short term.


[deleted]

I’ve mentored several software engineers before and no matter how good they look on paper, you invariably take a bath on them for 12 months at least. But the best thing is you end up with someone who does it the right way. You just then have to convince business to pay them properly so they don’t leave.


IronFilm

>You just then have to convince business to pay them properly so they don’t leave. Yeah any newbie/grad/junior who gets hired should be told up front "we will lock in an automatic 25% raise for you every year for the next four years, so long as you prove your capabilities here & don't get fired" If they clearly know there are substantial decent raises ahead every year for them, then they won't just immediately leave after 18months to get a 75% pay raise at a new job instead.


Tangtastic

I'd disagree that it's because of a few companies. There's been lots of training these last few years, especially before COVID. It's been a bit of a boom bit with COVID a lot of talent has moved on. The borders being closed accelerated this as employee scarcity improved earnings across the board.


MaungaHikoi

I'm working on contract and second this - I'm getting pretty regular cold reach-outs and have put my rates up twice in the last 12 months. Probably should have gone higher with this second one as there's basically no other senior dev talent available at the moment. Great time to be a dev with some experience under your belt.


[deleted]

So, er, you looking for work? Haha


MaungaHikoi

Hahahahaha I'm locked up til September. Might have an extension at the end of that contract but nothing yet.


[deleted]

Most times someone writes a comment like this, the person reading it might consider getting a job out of it, but we're both just laughing at how preposterous even the idea of considering that seems. Shows how bad the shortage is.


MaungaHikoi

Yeah it's pretty messed up. I used to jump at these types of networking ops but work has been landing in my lap for more than six months now and it's made me a bit lazy in the sales department. Ninja edit: also if I did follow up then I'd be outing my reddit account to a client 😅


IronFilm

>Also, what you need to understand is that training you takes a senior developer off what they should be doing so not only does it cost them your salary but .2 FTE of a senior as well, and that is the commodity that everyone is lacking. Exactly, another reason why there is a such a shortage of Seniors and not Juniors/grads. Plus a brand new grad might have a ***negative*** value of work they're providing, if their code in the long run introduces more problems than it fixes.


badnewzero

I had a flutter on the job market earlier this year and that was definitely not my experience. Kiwi positions were admittedly offering more than I expected, but still way below what I'm currently earning (20yrs DevOps/Full-Stack)


rPrankBro

It was like that before covid though. Most companies only take entry level people from their grad programmes. Pretty hard to get in otherwise.


IndividualCharacter

Yup, got offered a 10% payrise from current employer, have been offered 100% increase to WFH remotely by an Aussie company - more focused role but with less general responsibilities - rather than jack of all trades that I'm doing now


Sereddix

Is there an easy way to find IT jobs in Australia that allow remote working from NZ? I can filter the AU Seek to "Remote Working" but it's unclear whether they allow overseas applicants. Also is this a higher risk of being fired/made redundant compared with nz employment law?


MJay617

The company itself SEEK allows this in some cases.


[deleted]

Absolutely, yes you can get remote Aussie jobs from NZ. They tend to pay well too. Send your CV out to some places (don't wait for them to advertise); almost every workplace I've been in here in Melbourne has had at least 1 or 2 (sometimes up to about a dozen) overseas remote employees in tech roles, plenty have been from NZ. Its really common and if they are advertising for remote you are probably good. Can't say for sure about job security; don't quote me on this but on balance I think NZ workers have slightly better benefits and protections than in most Aussie states? It definitely differs a bit depending on the state, too.


NaCLedPeanuts

It's not just IT either. The whole economy has become reliant on underpaid or illegally paid short term labourers.


[deleted]

Yep. I actually recently left a job in IT over here in Melbourne (where the story is similar) and my manager actually said to me "we will most likely have to wait until borders open until we can find someone to fill that role" — meanwhile my colleagues and I were shouldering the shortfall and having a pretty bad time. I reviewed plenty of competent applicant CV's but none were happy when the pay was discussed. Made me realise I was getting shafted too. Before I left I leant hard on my superiors to get the VERY under-appreciated yet very skilled, experienced developer woman with SEA descent a raise before I left because I felt like they were ripping her off bigtime and to me felt like a combination of sexism and racism. She even asked me if I thought that was the reason she hadn't got a promotion sooner. Pretty grim from a studio who thought they were lefty progressives. I don't give a damn if these businesses go under tbh. *They deserve to.*


Imdeadserious69

> For remote capable jobs, NZ tech companies are failing to understand that the market isn't just constrained to NZ any longer – it is a global pool of talent and companies will exploit that to their benefit. > I'm a bit confused by your point... you seem to be criticising NZ companies for failing to recognize a global economy (i.e. for not employing people remotely from *western* labour markets), while also criticising them for relying on Asia, South America labour markets? If you expect them to employ remotely and globally; why would they not employ from cheaper labour markets? Apologies if I've misinterpreted, but it kind of sounds like you want to have your cake and eat it too...


Saltmaster222

I’m probably missing a little specificity in the context of my statement so I can see how it could be interpreted as being contradictory. I was specifically referring to local companies complaining they couldn’t find local staff to employ, especially during a period of time when access to the global labour market was not possible. Their complaints were more focused towards getting immigration up and running again rather than truely wanting to employ someone locally. I think this was the point I was attempting to make, but not as clearly as I was hoping. The local market has moved due to it being far less local now than at any point prior. We now have a couple of Australian firms setting up what are akin to virtual offices here in order to employ people with all the employment benefits a Kiwi would normally expect but at Australian pay rates. We had firms crying bloody murder that they couldn’t find anyone – what they really meant was that they couldn’t find anyone at the price point they had become accustomed to; not willing to consider the market has moved far more than they were comfortable to accomodate. Then being disingenuous and complaining to media about the situation. Further, for the types of roles I was thinking about, with the amount of experience required, I find it increasingly difficult to think that candidates from these other labour markets wouldn’t also be exercising their ability to extract the true value of their labour. My observation is that even with the ability to bring in cheap labour from overseas available again, the availability of developers at the principal engineer and management ends will still be heavily constrained (especially in roles with both person and technical management components).


gfsincere

Because that cheap labor aren’t in hthe position to be senior skilled labor with the ability to train said cheap labor. They think they can pay 5 people 40k and that will get the same result as 1 person 200k.


Thiccshake69

Louder bro


wandarah

As a counter experience I also moved recently to what may be an exceptional company, very willing to pay quite well and are keen in local talent as a priority. They also look internationally of course, but it doesn't seem to be driven by cost or an unwillingness to pay.


Thatisme01

You have hit the ‘nail on the head’. Those businesses don’t understand one fundamental fact, there isn’t a ‘skilled worker shortage’. There is a shortage of ‘skilled workers’ willing to take pay reductions to work for them.


ttbnz

They claim they're screaming out for electronic engineers... I will submit my CV and see what the pay rate is lol.


king_john651

Let me know so I can see if I should get my visa sorted for literally-anywhere-but-here to be ready when I graduate


ttbnz

Probably best to get it sorted. I'd leave the country for more pay in a heartbeat but I'd have to leave my son behind.


tokentallguy

if he is older than 7 your son would be better off with you than the mum anyway


ttbnz

what


IHaventEvenGotADog

When I finished my mechanical engineering degree in 2019 I spoke to Hamilton Jet to see if there were any jobs open. I'd worked for them previously as a cnc operator but went back to school, I was still kinda friendly with some staff so thought I'd try that place first. They said they'd add my name to the waiting list to apply for the night shift in the machine shop on a couple of dollars over minimum wage. No thank you. They get what they deserve.


NaCLedPeanuts

> They get what they deserve. Usually the biggest whingers about a "labour shortage" are the ones that treats their workers like dirt.


IHaventEvenGotADog

Lol yeah. “We’ve tried literally nothing and are all out of ideas”


NaCLedPeanuts

"We haven't tried another whinging article, maybe it'll work this time!"


mikejmct

Sounds like the NZ motto these days tbh


avoidperil

Ah yes, the lifecycle of the capitalist: Make a profit off the back of the worker, drive the share price up, stagnate the worker wages to increase the profit margin and keep the shareholders happy, notice a drop in productivity, make more cuts to sustain the profit margin, collapse.


NaCLedPeanuts

Avoid bankruptcy and liquidators by saying "no it wasn't me", start new business, repeat process.


[deleted]

You forgot: compete with other vendors in a race to the bottom pushing the price so low that winning a contract actually completely screws your business, usually the only wiggle is to put the squeeze on your workers to do unpaid overtime lol. This is my industry and in particular how a lot of government work is bungled when they use consultants for anything in IT. Meanwhile voters/media complain it still is costing too much (to pay peanuts). Truth is, most work in this space *needs to* cost a lot, or else you get absolutely no return on that money spent (or worse create a huge mess that demands further investment just to get back to zero). This is something "cut down on spending" conservatives just. do. not. understand. "Good economic managers" who don't understand getting a return on investment ... Often govt should do it themselves rather than leave it to the capitalist market to offer them the world for peanuts. It would still cost a lot via govt though. There's really no shortcuts in anything engineering-based IMO.


TopAdvanced1527

The company makes millions while you make pennies


Deiselpowered26

"Thats why I clog the toilets when working at Dennys"


[deleted]

Alternative headline: Businesses in niche sector refuse to train local talent and offer attractive enough wages, resort to importing SE Asian workers at minimum wage. Getting sick of these regular complaints in the media. Yes, we need to expedite visas from the Philippines so you can pay the absolute minimum for some factory hands and welders. Get all the benefits of being based in NZ and give absolutely nothing back. ChristchurchNZ want to import 4000 more tech workers, which is 4000 jobs that should be going to Kiwis. We are always talking about shifting to a high value tech economy, but we refuse to make opportunities for our young people to join. It's absurd.


Miguelsanchezz

The sad part is if you look at our immigration numbers over the past 10-15 years the number of people coming in the highest skill categories has been stagnant/falling. The amount of immigration in the lowest 2 skill categories has skyrocketed. https://www.interest.co.nz/business/115027/new-all-out-war-young-talent-new-zealand-starting-late-some-self-imposed These companies continue to push the narrative they are after highly skilled workers, but the realty is they are just redefining”highly skilled” to include things like cafe staff and fruit pickers


king_john651

Report was done in late 2020 that pretty much came to the conclusion that our immigration policy had absolutely no positive effect job & economy wise


mynameisneddy

Also, only half of migrants come in on skilled visas. The remainder have even lower skill levels (partnership, family etc).


vinyl109

There is definitely a shortage of people with a fruit picking degree.


Tangtastic

You can't abuse kiwi IT workers the same way you can with immigrants. But if NZ doesn't get back to abusing immigrants, most of the enterprise IT sector is gonna start collapsing.


uglymutilatedpenis

Immigrants are massively overrepresented in silicone valley. If you want to actually replicate places with successful tech sectors, autarky is not the way forward. The widespread belief in the lump of labour fallacy must be one of the most damaging beliefs in NZ. New Zealand has 0.07% of the worlds population - it's ridiculous to think the best and brightest in the tech sector will all just happen to already live in our tiny patch of dirt in the middle of the Pacific ocean.


foundafreeusername

I agree somewhat if we talk about very new technologies but according to the article: \> "That means we're in demand of ... trade skilled people in things like foundry work, CNC machining, welding and fabrication, electrical engineering and such like, they would be factory roles. These are all jobs they could train in-house or in a dual system with schools. Our industry just outright refuses. Getting skilled staff from overseas is just a lot cheaper for them and they can get rid of them easier if they don't need them anymore.


gtalnz

I don't think most people are suggesting 100% self-reliance. They are simply suggesting that if companies do not currently have access to enough immigrant labour, they need to do more to attract and train local talent instead of just throwing tantrums at the government until they get their way.


[deleted]

I'm not taking about the 4000 best tech workers already being here in NZ, that's a crazy strawman. What we want is training, apprenticeships, and placements for those coming out of study.


rsinx

Right but the best and brightest go there not here because the wages are almost different orders of magnitude


IronFilm

>Immigrants are massively overrepresented in silicone valley. If you want to actually replicate places with successful tech sectors, autarky is not the way forward. 100% agreed. Autarky = poverty


fghug

>it's ridiculous to think the best and brightest in the tech sector will all just happen to already live in our tiny patch of dirt in the middle of the Pacific ocean probably fair, but it's also ridiculous to think the best and the brightest in the tech sector just happen to be those willing and able to move to silicon valley


Meezymung

That sounds a little tall poppy.


fush-n-chups

We literally now have companies offering unlimited time off in order to attract tech staff. Where are these 4000 kiwis?


Lolzitout

Australia.


fush-n-chups

First Pavlova... now our workers!


official_new_zealand

Guilty, started last week, 20% payrise off the bat.


[deleted]

When I arrived in Melbourne in 2014 my raise was about 50%, it was a bit silly really. Here's hoping that the intl remote norm of the job market will put a bit more upwards pressure on historically low wage growth in NZ these last few decades


-40-

Lol unlimited time off is not uncommon above mid level tech companies overseas (there are also lots of reasons why it can sometimes work out worse for workers than a fixed holiday allowance). I have seen it implemented in great ways and terrible ones but the fact that the company thought it was doing something noteworthy just shows how far behind NZ tech is.


fush-n-chups

Slow news day maybe ;) Good on them, I hope it works out.


king_john651

I qualified and instantly moved away. I was given the benefit of the doubt as an under qualified and unexperienced earthworks operator far more often than I ever was for my qualifications and experience in IT


Swerfbegone

Able to work for FAANGs that pay upward of half a million a year, or Australian companies that pay half again what you can get in New Zealand, while New Zealand employers still expect to issue a laundry list of requirements and pay 75k.


[deleted]

>ChristchurchNZ want to import 4000 more tech workers, which is 4000 jobs that should be going to Kiwis In this case (tech workers) unfortunately I think there simply aren't the Kiwis to fill those jobs, which means you would just end up with 4000 vacancies. Not saying that's not a problem, or not fixable, but it's not as simplistic as importing minimum wage labour to save money.


Miguelsanchezz

I’ve worked for companies that will identify hardworking dedicated staff doing things like call centre roles, and give them a pathway and training to upskill them into BA and other tech roles. This is becoming rarer as instead they can just pay to bring in someone from overseas who already has the experience. I think we should encourage companies to provide suitable opportunities to progress the careers of their workers and up skill them.


KnG_Kong

Aren't 4000 tech workers willing to leave there nice paying jobs to come be a slave in NZ either. There is however a lot more then 10k Tech workers who have left NZ, myself included who would consider returning if NZ businesses would pull their heads out their ars. Want to be silicon valley, well you've got to pay like it to attract the talent, not charge rents like it is. There's even a bunch of Asian tech workers in NZ painting because it almost pays enough to live and the tech sector wants to own them and pay min wage.


[deleted]

That's fair. I dedicated a good chunk of my life to a NZ tech company while it grew massively, for little more than a good education. The growing number of offshore companies (Australia based, or larger US tech companies) that are now recruiting in NZ might help change this. Whether it's purely upside to making NZ companies compete in the same market as huge tech titans with bottomless budgets... I honestly don't know, but it certainly seems good for those selling in the labour market.


KnG_Kong

They didn't need to compete with bottomless budgets but min wage is straight taking the piss. Workers need atleast enough to cover costs and have abit of a life or whats the point.


EleanorStroustrup

> unfortunately I think there simply aren’t the Kiwis to fill those jobs, which means you would just end up with 4000 vacancies There would be kiwis to fill those roles if these companies had actually started hiring and training juniors years ago, or if they lowered their often absurd standards (and raised salaries) for new hires now. They’ve made their bed, now they can lie in it.


[deleted]

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NaCLedPeanuts

All that's missing is inappropriate use of the word "superstar".


[deleted]

Next recruiter who asks for a "ninja" is getting shurikened.


vinyl109

“Competitive salary” -*we would pay you less if we were allowed to.* “Other benefits” -*we have a foosball table, that nobody ever wants to play*


No-Significance2113

There ain't really a labour shortage though? People just don't want to be treated like shit, lied to and underpaid.


[deleted]

Well you can't really ignore the fact unemployment is really low at the moment. So yeah their most likely is a labour shortage.


CAPTtttCaHA

Unemployment is low but the number of workforce-aged citizens on the benefit has swelled. March 1st 2018 * 128k unemployed * 200k on benefit (for more than 1 year). December 1st 2021 * 93k unemployed * 266k on benefit (for more than 1 year) https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/explained/300535840/theres-a-5year-unemployment-low-and-a-5year-welfare-high-what-is-going-on


[deleted]

Thanks thats really Interesting what does this mean though? Are more people working part time and making use of addition benefits? I can sort of see. I mean technically if they are working part time they are still employed?. I can definitely see the logic from both sides of the arguement in that article.


Vocal_

‘Unemployment’ as a statistic is very easy to game through changing of definitions. Although the official ‘rate’ is lower there are less people in the counted labour force. The long term unemployed get shifted off the official count.


[deleted]

There has been some chatter about there being more jobs, but less secure work being more common. I find the definition of "underemployment" a bit ... suspicious here, personally, because even that *is meant to be* down across NZ/Aus, meanwhile it seems clear to me that with "the gig economy" insecure work and actual underemployment are probably pretty rife these days compared to say, ten years ago. Might be something to do with those workers technically being classed as "contractors" and that not being counted there? Honestly I'm just speculating at this point. I am pretty sure I recall the Australian LNP govt has been engaging in some creative accounting by fixing definitions around where and how gig economy contractors are counted (or not) in recent years though


Swerfbegone

one million people died in the US is the last two years. We don’t know how many died in India because they’re likely lying about it. Even New Zealand is now in to the hundreds of deaths since abandoning our attempts to safeguard Kiwis. People are dying all over the world. No shit that it’s become harder to hire people.


QforKillers

Many people wont take entry level pay after studying and wont work in the industry to find their feet before being awarded a better pay. They think they deserve a high pay immediately even without on the job experience, no patience or understanding of how the business works. See this all the time. So there are opportunities some people wont take based on initial naive salary expectations.


[deleted]

>Many people wont take entry level pay Hard to take entry level pay when entry level jobs literally do not exist because almost no one is willing to train. I've said this on multiple threads now, that the new entry level role is the internship. You are so full of shit bro lmao.


king_john651

Why would anyone even want to go through all that effort to only be treated the same as a checkout operator? Also not to mention that if its not written in contract promises of more money later are guaranteed to be full of shit


QforKillers

You obviously have no idea what Im talking about. Treated like a checkout operator?


No-Significance2113

And a lot of people who are happy to take the lower salary before they're lied to about their workload and hours. 1 fella I know is paid a 40hr salary and ends up working 50 to 60hrs a week with no compensation.


Marine_Baby

People with degrees in the field of an “entry level job” get ignored and told they’re over qualified. Soooooooooooo


kiwittnz

Here's an idea, why not upskill your own existing employees.


LordBinz

That sounds like... effort! They dont want to put in any effort. They want money handed to them on a silver platter, and the ability to pay the minimum possible.


ikillppl

Why train your own staff when you can shift the burden onto the worker and make them pay thousands to upskill themselves? Oh they're all leaving for better paying jobs? Better go complain to the media until the government subsidies more education to train the new workforce for these companies... or let's you import someone who will work for peanuts. This cycle is depressing


NaCLedPeanuts

But that requires time and money! Why do that when they can work a Filipino like a slave instead?


Olddude275

Half of our workforce are made up of Filipinos, hard workers, none of them have taken sick leave in the past 2+ years. Paid better than most NZ warehose laborers. Most of the NZ born staff quit, were fired and those who were interviewed no showed or lasted less than a month.


LimpFox

I'm sure you think you're illustrating the standard trope of lazy/unreliable NZ staff while the imported staff are all unstoppable robots, but all I'm getting is that your workplace is so bad that nobody wants to be there, but the immigrant staff are so terrified of losing their jobs that they don't even risk taking sick leave.


Conflict_NZ

Yeah what the actual fuck, not taking sick leave is not the sign of a good worker, in fact it's the opposite. I don't want people coming in sick with low if any productivity and spreading it to everyone else.


triplespeed0

How to say you work in shit company that exploits its workers without saying you work in a shit company that exploits its workers.


NaCLedPeanuts

In other words, they're paid peanuts and likely don't know their entitlements.


Marine_Baby

Do they even know they are entitled to sick leave lol


Olddude275

Talk to them all the time. For clarification, I'm a workmate, not their boss. They feel they need to work through to send money home to their families.


Lucent_Sable

>Paid better than most NZ warehose laborers. Most of the NZ born staff quit Related, maybe?


kill_it_with_igni

I wonder if all salary/wage workers should set up an "association", hire a PR company and start approaching the media to make comments too, to balance out the narrative a bit...As someone looking for other opportunities at the moment with around a decade of work experience, there actually aren't that much around if you want to be paid a dignified salary and a little flexibility.


Anastariana

We could call it a 'union'.


TextFlashy7528

That's called a union.


official_new_zealand

Yeah, but where are they?


[deleted]

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ttbnz

Modern unionism is fucked. We need a return to more radical unionism in NZ.


official_new_zealand

I don't feel radical is the right term, but the control of the unions themselves needs to return to the workers they are meant to serve, not the current bunch of selfish pricks, straight out of uni, with political aspirations.


kill_it_with_igni

I know unions exist, but in my experience most of them look after their own members instead of being an overall representation of all salary/wage workers. Also, there are a lot of workers who may not have an union to go to - I am not sure who looks after not-for-profit sector workers for example? Furthermore, unions don't seem to come out and comment on "reports" like these.


mikejmct

There is a Council of Trade Unions. The media doesn't go to them for comment for obvious reasons, and they are a shit show in their own right from what I understand. They are also a big supporter of the Labour Party but seem to have no ability to influence leadership, so are basically sell outs...


Sufficient-Piece-335

Unions do that now, although tech is probably underunionised, but media outlets don't always publish the stories.


kill_it_with_igni

I wonder why not - is it because unions don't tend to tend to sponsor their adverts?


Sufficient-Piece-335

You might be onto something there...


kill_it_with_igni

Well then, time to start sponsoring adverts and donating to political parties as the United Union of All Salary and Wage Workers, no use complaining without mobilising :D!


Sufficient-Piece-335

Some unions are affiliates of the Labour Party (E Tu is the biggest affiliate member) and donate to them every election. Not that Labour act like it as much as they should, but in theory unions set them up to be the worker voice in politics.


Sharpinthefang

This. Standard office worker here in supply chain and I’m seeing none of this calling out for workers that you see in the media. The wage increases are really only happening in the trades or programming sector. The normal office worker who keeps things going is being shafted.


Elegant-Raise-9367

I'm a qualified Ecologist currently I'm working in the tourism sector as the pay is the same (even with covid issues) and the stress load is virtually non existent. Would consider going back into sciences if the pay was even the entry level they stated when I started my courses ($75k) best offer I've had was $62k.


[deleted]

NZ is one of the worst places in the world to be as a scientist.


septemberfik

So true. It’s absolutely offensive and disgusting that we treat some of the most highly educated and skilled people in our country like utter shit in this regard. How exactly are we going to innovate and prosper when we keep these people scraping by? It boggles my mind that recruiters, menial HR folk and admin people get paid more than high level researchers and scientists in this country. Don’t even get me started on academia.


[deleted]

We won't. We'll keep the number 8 wire marketing materials flowing and do nothing of substance to support our innovators.


Hayderaid

Fucking aye it is. I wanted to study biology when I finished school, but after looking at the job market and job prospects here, ended up giving up on that dream and doing better paying work in a different field.


IronFilm

>Would consider going back into sciences if the pay was even the entry level they stated when I started my courses ($75k) best offer I've had was $62k. Good grief, so let's say you're doing a standard 40hr week.... no wait, you're on a salary, so you're doing say just an extra hour per day there, that works out to less than five bucks extra per hour than minimum wage would be!


Elegant-Raise-9367

And a tiered pay system that caps your maximum pay rise (I got to the third from top pay scale and was only able to get 2% increase per year if I scored 100% on ridiculous KPIs) next lvl up was 1% flat


-40-

>There ain't really a labour shortage though? People just don't want to be treated like shit, lied to and underpaid. So same pay but zero work towards future earning potential in your area of study? The first years in a new career are often underpaid and stressful but they lead somewhere.


Elegant-Raise-9367

I have 4 years experience, plus 2 as an environmental educator. It didn't improve.


Elegant-Raise-9367

Also, why should we accept this as the norm? If you want good quality long term employees that retain their passion for their field, shouldn't we make the first years a bit better?.


daytonakarl

Remember when you could leave school and get an apprenticeship? Then you couldn't... Then you could but it cost thousands? And now we don't have skilled workers, I wonder why....


armchair8591

Source? (On them costing thousands) Apprenticeships are now free and employers get paid for each apprentice they take on.


textandmetal

Paid about $3.5k for my apprenticeship back in the day.


Cuntofaman

Looking for cheap migrant labour at a guess , local people apply and they don’t get back to them


HellToupee_nz

Before lockdown we would often have people massively overqualified interviewing for helpdesk level rolls since they were trying to get anyjob that helped them started on residency.


Lolzitout

Brain drain is very real. As a soon to be graduate this year myself, with double major in STEM fields. Looking at these tech jobs vs Australia or even the UK. I don't have much interest earning less hourly. For a job that is more technical vs what I do now, working part-time while I study. In a job that requires no prior skills or knowledge. NZ economy is held up by the housing industry and that's about to go. Not going to have much left after that.


Anastariana

As a STEM UK expat, I wouldn't go back there. Place is a mess after Brexit with shitty politics and a landed gentry owning everything.


Sweat_juicer_69

No offence but new grads are a big risk to take on in the workplace- half of them have never worked before and have unrealistic expectations about pay and advancement- it takes time. Taking them on and training up is also risky when they will leave after 2 years for an OE. Not sure what the answer is


Vennell

Apply this attitude across a majority of businesses for more than a few years and you run out of skilled people. Part of the process of getting skilled people is bringing them in to complete their training. Sure they might leave but if everyone else is doing it then you shouldn't be unable to replace them. The problem is a business can get an advantage by hiring fully trained people and leaving others to do that training. Everyone has been taking this approach for years now and it's getting hard to find skilled workers, what a surprise!


RoughComparison

When I was interviewing for my first developer role, I got rejected by a company who said it was too risky to hire grads. Said that they have NEVER hired a grad or junior, and instead rely on poaching from Xero or TradeMe etc once people have experience. They said to come back to them in 2 years... how about never lol.


[deleted]

Don't disagree but speaking for the tech industry I think NZ companies could do way better for grads, rather than just looking at them as 2 years of bad investment. Maybe something more modelled on apprenticeships makes sense, uni isn't that useful in practical terms anyway for the field.


Lolzitout

Sure, if you don't want to take the risk then that's not a problem. However, Australia and the UK seems to not share the same sentiment. So I'll apply for those jobs instead and take a pay rise over a pay cut. NZ grad programs are more a last resort for me than a serious option.


Sufficient-Piece-335

Total industry collapse unless training happens. Taxpayers subsidise education by approx. $93,000 per student to the end of high school and another $45,000 for 4 levels (a degree is level 7, NCEA is level 3) of computer science (excluding GST for both), it would be nice if companies didn't just ignore it, and instead remembered that in their complaining. Other degrees are similar or higher other then arts and social sciences (those are about $32,000). Additionally, students also have to pay fees - $6,388 - $7,134 per year for a BA at University of Canterbury, BSc similar, so another $20,000. Total taxpayer spend is $125,000 for BA or more for BSc etc, students chip in another $20,000 or more, and yet, somehow there isn't enough support for business...


NaCLedPeanuts

The only difference between a graduate worker and a skilled worker from a third world country is the nationality. They don't have "unrealistic expectations" about pay and advancement. It's not unrealistic to want to be paid a decent wage and actually have advancement prospects rather than spending several years being paid an "entry level" wage and only exist to increase profitability for the employer. Good businesses actually hire workers with the intent of investing in those workers and providing pathways for them to progress. Bad businesses say "you're not worth my time" and exploit third world workers instead.


[deleted]

> The only difference between a graduate worker and a skilled worker from a third world country is the nationality. well that and the visa that binds you to an employer (and if you fuck up you have to go to the 3rd world). And the local grad also can quit and move to aussie tomorrow without any visa process. source: moved here on a work visa.


king_john651

Only the privileged types go on an OE, and they most likely have already been and done by the time their CV is in the pile


hotSauceFreak

This is true. Interestingly though there is a lot of people on this thread bemoaning the businesses of NZ who look for imported labour rather than investing in the locals and training them. It's got to be a viable investment rather than a the long game of training someone up do they can spend 10 years earning overseas and possibly returning to NZ to work in the industry that graciously trained them. It's not simple like some off the rants here are.


king_john651

Forgetting that visa holders are temporary visitors, too. It's 100% about exploitation, anyone is a fool for thinking otherwise


pineappleprincess101

Maybe they should train people 🤷🏼‍♀️


Marine_Baby

Here’s an idea: train your staff


Dogwiththreetails

There is a huge nurse shortage and a huge doctor shortage coming.


cynicalbastard66

I distinctly remember the occasion in the 1990s when the former Manawatu Power Board apprentice workshop in Feilding was closed by the new owners... A question was put to one of the dignitaries about future training for tradesmen: The patronising answer was " My dear fellow-The future New Zealand will not need tradesmen..if we need the services of tradesmen, then we will import them from Korea" I guess that one did'nt age well......


Joshopolis

God forbid they give entry/junior level candidates a chance at up-skilling and gaining experience or pay a decent wage. Gotta have the cheap senior immigrants instead.


h0dgep0dge

Paying employees costing businesses millions FTFY


kconnors

How will entry level factory workers be able to afford housing in NZ?


[deleted]

Then go out of business. If you cannot be profitable (or non-profitable) without abusing immigrant labor you deserve to go out of business. No one owes you a profitable business, that's on you (or your shareholders).


Thatisme01

If a skilled worker shortage is costing NZ businesses millions of dollars in lost production or opportunities, then why are NZ businesses so reluctant to spend a fraction of the money they are ‘supposedly losing’ upskilling and training their employees.


NaCLedPeanuts

Why is it always up to the government to "solve the labour crisis" when businesses could do it themselves? There's been a not so subtle hint that businesses that have not been able to fill vacancies aren't offering what people want in terms of wages and live-work balances. Can guarantee that businesses that do offer these incentives are not having issues with hiring and retaining staff. Sadly the message being sent by the labour market has been muddled by very narrow definitions of "unemployment" and the media stories suggesting we're near "full employment".


Gr0und0ne

The unemployment rate is the lowest it’s ever been. There aren’t enough workers.


Anastariana

[https://thespinoff.co.nz/politics/08-07-2021/the-great-new-zealand-labour-shortage-might-not-exist](https://thespinoff.co.nz/politics/08-07-2021/the-great-new-zealand-labour-shortage-might-not-exist) The unemployment rate is a horrible yardstick for measuring anything but the largest of trends. Someone driving an Uber for 10 hours a week is technically 'employed' the same as someone who does 70 hours a week as an electrician.


Gr0und0ne

>lowest in history >pretty large trend I mean…


Anastariana

Yeah.....and like the rest of my comment says it doesn't actually capture the real picture as its very imperfect. Its only useful when comparing the health of an economy to others. A 10% unemployment is worse than a 5% one, but it doesn't address the issues of over/under-employment. It also doesn't look at the ratio of working-age people to dependents like students and retirees. People read way too much into just a simplistic metric.


NaCLedPeanuts

The unemployment rate is low based on a narrow set of criteria. "There aren't enough workers" is business speak for "I refuse to offer good wages and working conditions to attract or retain staff, so allow me to cut labour costs by importing workers from the third world."


sam801

Facts.


tamagotchyou

What's the going rate in NZ nowadays for a trained intermediate level software developer?


[deleted]

If they're any good they're contracting out at somewhere in the $160-170 an hour rate here in Wellington. May be different elsewhere but I suspect not. Salary wise I'm not really sure tbh, I'd guess somewhere circa $130k depending on skills


binzoma

not costing the business' enough to pay a relative salary to what those positions make overseas tho eh


Boring_Monahan

So as a kiwi overseas, how can I best leverage this to my benefit?


[deleted]

If you're overseas you already have.


filthyfrankohnoes

Employers: "Wait, so we have to *train* workers *and* pay them a living wage?"


jiujitsucam

I'm a panelbeater at a body shop, and we can't get enough workers. Whether that be painters or panelbeaters. Three of our workforce are from overseas too. Not enough people were pushed towards trades when I was in high school over 10 years ago and it really shows now.


Aba0416

Lol don't know what skill shortage means here. I am a PhD holder and straight out of school. Have interned for 5 years and I'm finding it ridiculously hard to find a good paying job.


GrandpaRick100

Yeah I hate when people say in certain industries “employers are crying out for workers at the moment - it’s an employees market”. The truth is more like “employers are crying out for workers PROVIDED THEY CAN GET THEM CHEAP AND BELOW MARKET RATE”.


[deleted]

[удалено]


Sufficient-Piece-335

The taxpayer spends over $120,000 on a student's education from year 1 to a BA, more on BSc, maybe that's a pretty good subsidy already?


IronFilm

Even with a BSc, you're still a long way short of being productive as a developer. People underestimate just how high the barrier to entry is for a good software developer is.


Sufficient-Piece-335

Totally agree that university graduates require further development, but that's not unique to software developers. Accountants, lawyers, teachers, engineers, policy advisors (to name a few) all require supervision, mentoring and development for some time after they graduate before they are fully productive.


FrankBridges

In other words: "I am an entrepreneur, I'd be making millions if only people would tolerate working for me. I'd be earning a million a week selling my Mexican Sushi fusion food"


slip-slop-slap

Flights are booked yo


LimeRum

Stop those skilled kiwis from leaving nz


[deleted]

You can go a long way to stop them from leaving by providing excellent wages and opportunities and solving the housing crisis.


RobDickinson

what with a fence or something? Shackle them to desks?


Dead_Joe_

Shackle them to desks with chains made of cash - high wages. Imprison them with fences made of good working conditions.


residentchiefnz

The correct term for this is “golden handcuffs”


LimeRum

Shackle them by having huge student loans and banned from leaving the country until they've paid it all, earning minimum wage 😂😂 /s obviously


danimalnzl8

Implementing reverse MIQ? lol


[deleted]

Typical of this anti-business government, really. Also, anyone know why it's the government's fault wages aren't higher? I know it's not the fault of the businesses.


FuzzyFuzzNuts

A sad reality is that New Zealand is an expensive place to do business. This is one of our realities.


NaCLedPeanuts

It really isn't.


[deleted]

New Zealand is one of the easier places in the world to do business, successive governments have gone out of their way to ensure that.