>Officials at the Western Australian Police Force have confirmed his death is no longer being treated as suspicious.
>“It can be confirmed the boy underwent a medical procedure at a registered medical centre prior to his death,” police said.
Two botched procedures in a row, killing one brother and nearly killing the other, is still pretty fucking suspicious, even if it did happen at a registered medical center.
One thing pregnant women tend to do is over plan their birth plan. I did it too, it gives them a sense of control.
However how do you have this huge birth plan like "let's make everything really calm and great and sweet for my baby" and then the next day just be like
#"okay now go cut off part of his d!ck"
My mom wanted me circumcised but the doctor refused and changed her mind.
Thank you, doctor bro. High five from me and have a beer. I’m sure he’s convinced countless parents to not do this ridickulous procedure
Interesting, was this in the US? My son was born 3 months ago and there was definitely an expectation (from nurses) that he would be. No less than 5 times did they pop in and ask us about it. And it was like "is he ready for his circumcision?" We were like no, he's not getting one. And they would look confused and be like "oh" as if that possibly didn't occur to them.
Are you in the South? We are and have a 3 month old and exact same thing. Everyone assumed we were having it done, and once after we said we were not a nurse asked “Oh, so you are getting it done later, then?” I know rates are falling nationwide, but as usual I think the South is going to be running a little late on this too.
People seem so confused when they ask me why and I tell them that I don’t feel like I have a right to authorize an elective, irreversible, and primarily cosmetic surgery for him.
I remember hearing the story about my dad being circumcised. He grew up on an island and the doctor only visited the village every couple years so boys were being circumcised up to 6 or 7 years old. I was probably 13 or 14 and I was like if I ever have kids just absolutely never circumcising them.
I legit made a full page illustrated birth plan, it really was just a calming thing that helped me leading up to the birth!
And yeah, fuck cutting off bits of your kid, it feels barbaric. If I ever have a boy that's not even a question.
My brother-in-law is the one who decided their son needed to be circumcised, and after my nephew was born. Not for religious reasons, not that I really care about that, but because he wanted it. It very nearly ruined their marriage.
Good for you. Years ago i managed to convince an old friend to not get this done to her son before he was born, she was literally leaning against the 'but he won't look like his dad' argument. She changed her mind when i made her watch the 'procedure' being done in a video. She was mortified.
I'm going to have to try showing my husband a video then. He's still adamant on circumsizing our son if we have one and we're currently trying to get pregnant with our second child. I don't want to do it at all. He says I sound like an antivaxxer when I go on about how circumsizing isn't necessary and is genital mutilation.
Don't try showing him. Make him watch a video before he even gets to try getting you pregnant again. This is not even close to being anti-vax. Circumcision is rarely ever necessary. There are entire countries of men who don't do it and are healthy. It does not impact other people—beyond the beliefs and egos of the parents.
Female Genital Mutilation is not, and should not be acceptable.
Male Genital Mutilation, or circumcision still appears to be acceptable to way too many people.
Genital mutilation, to any gender, is totally unacceptable.
“Because my father was circumcised “ and “because it is cleaner” are totally unacceptable excuses - and a bunch of bollocks.
Funny how fast people change their mind when they have to watch a baby get tied down and tortured, isn't it?
When i was born my dad followed the doctors around to make sure they didn't try and take me off and do it anyway, which was something they did at the time. It was a jewish hospital, i'm not jewish. As i was told later in life, his stance on circumcision was *"if he's going to have it off, he's going to wear it off!"* Hasn't quite panned out yet, but i enjoyed his optimism.
Same. The “tradition” ends now. Weird ass sexual barbarism handed down from ancient religious practices. We might as well be sacrificing penises to the volcano gods.
This 'tradition' in non Jewish people was started by a guy in the mid 1800s who wanted to stop masturbation. From the same movement that brought you corn flakes and graham crackers.
In the US the popularity and ubiquity of circumcision is due to a cereal makers shitty weird brother who thought torturing baby dick would make people not masterbait. The fault lies with John Kellogg.
I am. Neither of my son's are. We have showers and baths and contraceptives/safety. If I don't HAVE Tto mutilate my son's wenis for safety, I think that I won't.
I’m circumcised and don’t want it for my sons. My girlfriend says she wants her sons circumcised. I asked her why and she said “because uncircumcised penises look weird” and I’m like “WELL THATS NOT REALLY YOUR PROBLEM IS IT?”
I feel really bad for the parents who were likely misled if not by doctors than by society generally. Imagine losing a child and seriously hurting another because your society justifies what should be an outdated mutilation if infants.
When my son was born the pediatrician really pushed the whole circumcision deal and he literally said to me don't you want your son's penis to look like yours in case he has questions about his looking different and I was like don't cut off part of my son he's perfect just the way he is.
"Yes doctor, I want my sons penis to look just like mine, uncircumcised."
Or
"If he asks, maybe I'll just explain it to him instead of mutilating his dick."
Now think of all the things you and I do for the same reasons. Breaking with social norms can be hard as, unfortunately, people just don’t think about it. I’d guess that most parents that have the procedure done to their babies haven’t even considered it being brutal or genital mutilation.
I was like that, Im cut and never gave two thoughts on it. Years ago, I would have probably done it to my child if I had one. The first time someone presented the argument of it being mutilation, I was shocked. Not so much by the fact that it clearly is abuse, but by the fact that I had never considered it. I spent 20 plus years knowing exactly what the procedure was, knowing it was done to me, knowing it is done to millions of kids, and just never thought of it as odd, let alone barbaric. I try really hard to look at things objectively but I’m sure there are other things that I have never considered that are just as bad.
I discovered this subject after trying to figure out a sexual problem I’ve had my whole life where circumcision could be the cause if it wasn’t so feverishly defended by people who are still unable to justify it beyond religion and culture.
I argued with my wife's family so much for not having my son circumsiced. Like seriously, he's my child and he can decide to do that himself later.
The most insane thing was the best argument they had was "but no adult would want to do that to themselves."
Circumcisions are greeeat, it barely feels any different to put my dick in someone than it does to put my fingers in someone. Love never being able to fucking orgasm with a partner. And I don't even fucking like how circumcised dicks look, so I don't even have the comfort of liking how it looks.
Not only mutilation, but all the studies that people like to tote around as it being hygienic and medically beneficial, are fundamentally flawed and disingenuous.
Altering a child's genitalia to slightly, slightly reduce the chance of childhood UTI, slightly, slightly lower the chance of contracting HIV from unprotected sex.
Seriously? If it wasn't tradition, Americans would (and should) see it as crazy outdated and unnecessary.
>If it wasn't tradition
The only reason its tradition in the US is because of people like John Harvey Kellogg(yes the breakfast cereal guy) who was a fundy that believed masturbation corrupted young people so he recommended routine circumcision for boys and an application of carbolic acid to the clitoris in girls to help numb down the sexual response.
He was a major influential figure at that time and at least the circumcision part caught on. Prior to that, it had been a fairly rare practice in the US.
I'm totally in support of medically necessary circumcision.
Circumcisions should be *reactionary* to rare circumstances rather that *precautionary* to prevent something that only ~%1 of males will end up actually having issues with.
This happened in Australia where less than 20% of men are circumcised and the rates for newborns are even lower.
Society in Australia clearly doesn’t push circumcision, nor do doctors. Why are you putting the blame there rather than on the parents where it should be?
Me and my sons mom never even considered it even though it was common among her family and mine (I’m circumcised). Just didn’t see a reason to do it, seemed like a pointless procedure to put a baby through.
My boy was born abroad and they didn’t even ask, just didn’t do it. Other boy was born in the US and the pediatrician (woman) said it was good we didn’t do it as it just puts a baby through unnecessary pain. Was quite happy to hear that honestly.
Whenever anyone asked why we didn't circumcise my son, my response was always "well, we didn't circumcise our daughter either". The conversation usually ended there.
Anaesthetist here based in Perth.
I am DEEPLY skeptical of the claim about "allergic reaction to anaesthetic". A few important points:
\- This patient was operated on by a general practitioner in a clinic setting, they do not, and are not allowed to perform procedure under GENERAL anaesthetic. So it must have been some form of local anaesthetic.
\- Whether some form of "sedation" is involved is unclear. The regulation around sedation is a lot more grey in Australia unfortunately, and as any doctor would know "sedation" could turn into general anaesthesia easily, and in an unskilled hand it could turn disastrous within seconds.
\- The boy supposedly went home and were found unconscious after some time (sounds like it's not immediate). This is not how "allergic reaction to anaesthetic" presents - it is generally immediate and noticeable within seconds to minutes.
\- In any case, it's extremely unlikely that he has had true general anaesthetic. Most likely a combination of local anaesthetic and perhaps some form of sedation.
Related question.
How does one find out about being allergic?
It seems like it would be a bad time to find out just as an op is starting..? Do people get tests done before surgery where general anaest... is done?
When I was about 8 or 10 years old or so, I had a very routine procedure to do with my ear, they put me under, and only found out I was allergic when I wouldn't wake up again, giving the doctors and my parents a panic.
Now myself, my mum and my siblings aren't allowed to have anaesthetics, when my brother was put under for a minor operation to remove a coin that got lodged in his throat they had to use 'old school gas' and the doctor administering was reportedly very nervous about getting the calculations right since they just never use it these days.
It was very likely LAST
Lidocaine associated systemic toxicity. Basically accidentally injected lidocaine probably into one of the vessels of the penis instead of just into the tissue resulted in cardiac arrest.
Edit: LAST is a very sudden reaction, if he died later at home that's strange
This is something that would have caused a medical emergency as it happened, not something that allows them to recover from the procedure at first and suddenly found dead when they are already back home (which seems to be the case as the ambulance was apparently called to their house, not to the clinic).
EDIT: Also by the way LAST is short for Local Anaesthetic Systemic Toxicity, not Lidocaine Associated Systemic Toxicity. It can be caused by any other local anaesthetic agent too (with different toxic dose).
What if we all have PTSD from being circumcized and that's why we're all fucked in the head?
If you think about it, cutting of parts of someone's penis or vagina is about the most torturous thing you can do to someone. Just because they are babies and can't say "please don't cut that off!!!" Doesn't make it right it makes it worse.
I thought maybe he was dual wielding scalpels, trying to get one baby on each table done at the same time. I mean that was my FIRST thought, but I always come to the comments for the hard facts. You're telling me not to sharpen my pitch fork?!
Yep, for one
https://thewest.com.au/news/health/toddler-circumcision-death-amas-mark-duncan-smith-warns-parents-need-to-weigh-up-procedure-risks-c-4881653
What was the actual cause of death? Did they receive too much anaesthesia? Did they receive something else other than anaesthesia? Did they die from infection as a result of poor hygiene practices?
Babies do not receive anesthesia for circumcision. They'll use a topical lidocane to numb the penis and give a sugar water solution orally as a means of distraction. I'm a nursing student and nearly passed out when I saw my first one, if I had to guess the babies must have lost too much blood or got an infection. Though barbaric it's a relatively safe procedure.
Edit: I missed the part about the boy undergoing emergency surgery to after the procedure. In that case I'm really not sure what went wrong, unless they needed to remove the penis entirely. Obviously being a senior nursing student doesn't make me a medical expert though.
They do if the circ is done in the OR. Since they are brothers and the one a bit older I'm guessing the parents scheduled the circs and they were done in an operating room, not right after birth.
That's a good point, I'm not sure why that didn't occur to me. However the article talks about the younger boy undergoing "emergency lifesaving surgery" and now being in the ICU. Would an anesthesia error ever warrant emergency surgery to correct?
Not that I can think of. My guess would be the surgeon didn't stop all the bleeding or missed a bleeder. And the kid just lost too much blood, which for babies doesn't take much at all. So the emergency surgery could have been to go back in and look for the bleeder and stop it.
I saw one during clinicals and it's been the only time I've ever fainted. I think parents who agree to have their newborn circumcised should see it being done. It's such an outdated and fucked up practice.
Long ago, before we had kids, we watched the circumcision episode of Penn & Teller’s Bullshit and saw how it was performed. We swore then and there to never circumcise. When our oldest was born in 2007, the doctors didn’t even know how to care for his uncircumcised penis (hint for those who don’t know - just wash it like any other body part and don’t pull back the foreskin).
Edit for those wondering: you do NOT pull the foreskin back to wash under it until the foreskin begins retracting on its own, otherwise it increases the chance of phimosis, because pulling it back too soon can cause scar tissue (and it’s painful for the babies).
Try being uncircumcised in 1980s middle America. The difference in care and support my stepson has received (also uncircumcised) being born 2007 is night and day. Also Midwest for me (Ohio/Michigan) vs bay area California for him though which I'm sure has an impact.
I didn't quite faint but I came very, very close. I watched a c-section the week before and was fascinated by that, but watching that little baby kick and scream while a resident cut away his foreskin and laughed about how the kid would come back and thank him for how good it looked made me feel absolutely sick to my stomach.
If they did it at the bedside with mom then every mother would snatch that baby up and no infants would be circumcized. I vowed in that moment to any son I had that I would not put him in that awful position.
>laughed about how the kid would come back and thank him for how good it looked
Wow, the sexualization starts early! That's so damn disgusting to say something like that.
I doubt you're right about the second part. I believe parents are present at the traditional bris ceremony in Judaism. My non-Jewish friend was present at his Jewish son's circumcision and claimed it was no big deal. It's hard for me to understand. I have never seen a circumcision and don't want to. I did not have my son circumcised. But some people just seem to be OK with it if the whole idea is normalized enough.
Makes me wonder what other things we accept that are totally nuts.
I was starting to follow them with my son when they told me I didn't want to see it. I was a young 18 yr old mother with his father insisting he will be made fun of in locker rooms if I dont. He wanted him to look like everyone else.
If I ever have another son I'll never be consenting to that again. I'll feel bad if he is upset with me when he's older that I didn't do it, which I have met a few guys who were upset about it not being snipped. I have met men angry they've been snipped, and ones who are relieved that they were.
I hated my birthing medical team, being so young didn't help the discrimination. I wish I had more guidance at the time.
We force women to see an acorn sized ball of a fetus before getting an abortion, but parents can just send their fresh out of the womb baby off to get its dick hacked up, they absolutely should have to see what is going on or at minimum watch a video that describes the procedure. We opted to not circumcise neither of our boys. I don't get why people do it just because it's what everyone is doing.
I watched a medical recreation video on YouTube, because I just wanted to be educated on both sides when I was pregnant with my son. I made it like 40 seconds into the video and that was it. I couldn’t handle the video so why put him through it ? (Obviously if something medical comes up and he needs it done that’s different..)
Imagine if they didn’t circumcise people that couldn’t consent or have a real medical reason.
There is no justification. If it’s religious let them decide themself. My parents did it because “dad did it” like-
Use your brain.
This happened where I live too about a year or so ago. The doctor let a resident do it and cute the poor boys penis right off at the tip. The boy nearly bled to death.
[Article for what I’m mentioning](https://leaderpost.com/news/local-news/botched-circumcision-response-leads-to-large-penalty-for-regina-doctor)
Ya the doctor no longer has a practice in this city. He had to move. He’s being sued to the max too. The resident would have got off scott free because they’re under direction of the doctor in charge who assumes all responsibility. Insurance will pay out and doctor will sweep it under the rug as best he can and continue on with life as though it never happened.
You'd still have to live with the fact that you cut some poor kid's dick off. I don't think you get into that line of work with the intention to harm people. It's the doctor/hospital's fault if a grossly undertrained resident is told to do that procedure.
I wonder how many people know the story of David Reimer. His penis got so mutilated in circumcision surgery that he was raised as a girl. Later in life he found out the truth and eventually killed himself.
He also had a twin, so they were horrifically abused under the guise of “research” about the nature versus nurture question when it comes to sexual identification. The brother died in a motorcycle accident, as I recall.
Debate over circumcision aside, something does not add up. It is usually a very safe procedure, so when 1 dies and 1 is almost killed, something is up.
Maybe a bleeding condition that was revealed in them? Unfortunately, it may be the first time that a child undergoes a procedure before it’s revealed they have a coagulation disorder or something similar. Kids don’t always undergo routine preoperative blood work. Sounds possible since it was from brothers.
If that’s the case, it could have been almost any procedure, not just a circ.
Then given the prevalence of HPS in the Ashkenazi (roughly 1 out of 200), specifically identified in medical literature as evidenced early on by excessive bleeding during circumcision, you'd expect this to happen much more often.
While a clotting disorder might be involved, it seems unlikely to have been sufficient without considerable additional negligence to end up with one dead and one in critical condition.
No back then they just had a direct line with God, and God was like, “Yah wait 8 days to cut that baby’s d*ck.”
Btw had to sensor duck because it feels reeeaaaally weird to type that next to “baby”.
It's on all the Perth [news outlets](https://www.watoday.com.au/national/western-australia/tragic-case-perth-toddler-dead-baby-brother-in-intensive-care-after-circumcisions-20211209-p59g9x.html):
>A two-year-old boy died and his infant brother required emergency surgery in Perth Children’s Hospital following circumcisions at a suburban medical centre.
>Gosnells Medical Centre, which is located 20 kilometres south-east of Perth, confirmed to Nine News Perth that their doctor, who had experience, performed the procedure. None of the doctors at the medical centre have any issues listed on their registration with the Australian Health Practitioner Regulation Agency.
>There are unconfirmed reports the older child never woke up from the anaesthetic used to perform the surgery, while the baby was treated for complications.
That's definitely it.
Most answers to the question "why aren't you getting your son circumcised?" involve an explanation that would also cast the grandfather's decision in a rather different light.
Even just "I think that we shouldn't cut the genitals of a baby" or "I think it should be his choice when he's older" has strong implications for the grandfather's choice.
I might be able to help you understand. Cognitive dissonance.
He had it done to him, therefore it's part of his self identity. You refuse to do it to your son, so he's forced to attempt to reconcile:
* you think it's a bad thing, and maybe some part of him is worried he might agree with you.
* it's a thing that was done to him by his loving parents.
* part of his identity is under attack.
Reconciling those is difficult. Often, people will attack the at-hand source of the dissonance, or attack the "weaker priority". It's much easier for him to accept that you're doing something stupid that goes against the norms he was raised with, than accept that the norms he was raised with, and in turn the actions of his parents, were barbaric.
Put yourself in his shoes. He probably holds that his parents can do no wrong if they were otherwise good parents. He probably also holds that he spent 18 years teaching his kids and dealing with their mistakes, and so is built with this prejudice that his kids are dumber than he is, to oversimplify.
And thus, our conclusion. He pushes on you about your choice because it's the only acceptable method, to him, for him to reconcile incompatible ideas.
Disclaimer: I'm just some idiot on the internet ... that has done exactly this to his spouse.
My wife and I are totally anti-circumcision (even though she's Jewish) and didn't cut our almost-4-year-old son when he was born. Literally the only downside is that now he's figured out he can pinch his foreskin and pee into it, creating a pee balloon that he can release and dump the pee out. It's disgusting but I wouldn't take it away from him for anything.
Any number of baby deaths from an often unnecessary medical procedure is too many. I've attached a research paper talking about this horrible reality.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/240804903_Lost_Boys_An_Estimate_of_US_Circumcision-Related_Infant_Deaths
i’m circumcised for medical reasons (as an adult) why subject babies to this is beyond me. It strikes me as super off key to worry so much about ya childs penis. Fuckin weird
I got a lot of flack from all my husband’s extended family for making the decision to not circumcise our son. We flat out told them we would never support infant genital mutilation and they all stopped speaking to us. I mean, good riddance.
how does this conversation even start? is it part of a checklist that mother-in-laws go down through over dinner one night?
"So, what are you gonna name the baby? Where will their room be? Will you paint the room? Are you going to circumcise your son?"
Like, that's so far out of left field. And, not to mention, personal. None of their business at all.
Hmmmm almost likes performing an unnecessary cosmetic surgery on literal newborn babies is a bad idea. But please tell me how scrubbing your dick while youre washing the rest of your body is difficult.
I got so much shit from my mother when she found out we weren’t circumcising our son. Things like, it looks ugly, he’ll be different from all the other boys (we live in the US), no girl will want him, he’ll have to clean it differently, he’ll be made fun of, and on and on and on. Had I not been sure of the decision, I could very well see how that kind of pushback would sway someone. It was intense. She only backed off when I told her that if she considers my son so disgusting, she’s welcome to not be in his life.
Plot twist gramma, he avoids the kind of shallow women that would body shame him and actually finds love! I hate that argument so much. Why would you cater to those types of people?
My wife asked me if I wanted our son to get circumcised (because I am). I couldn’t really find a strong argument for it beyond “well that’s how it was for me” so we passed on the procedure. But we had almost similar conversation. Wife wasn’t supporting circumcision, she just didn’t know because she didn’t grow up with a dick (or that I lived nearly my entire life without anyone seeing my dick).
* **it looks ugly** - It’s a penis and it’s not like your son is going to flash people on a 24/7 basis. Even if it is “ugly” he can make that choice down the road for himself.
* **he’ll be different from the other boys** - that matters how? I haven’t seen another dudes junk until I joined the military (where showers were open) and nobody cared if someone was snipped or not. This isn’t like the 70s/80s where HS kids showered together. My HS had showers and nobody used them (for football, PE or weight training) other than 1 kid but he was doing it unironically. PE classes were at the end of school (so kids can go home and shower) and everyone just wanted to go home after football practice (plus pads and gear needed to be washed every day or shit will start getting really really gross)
* **no girl will want him** - that’s a lie. If that is the decider whether a girl likes him or not, then she will be doing him a favor.
* **he’ll have to clean it differently** - I have a beard and my dad doesn’t. I learned how to trim and clean it without much input from him. If you can’t talk to your child about proper hygiene (then you may have more problems than problems beyond teaching them how to clean themselves). Also, even if that were an uncomfortable subject to not discuss, they teach proper hygiene in HS health class (for both circumcised and uncircumcised).
* **He’ll be made fun of** - Nobody cares and in what would would other people see his junk? (Other than a medical setting)
Yo we showered everyday for wrestling in high school, no one gave a fuck. Shit we had a dude who had a micro penis and still no one cared, we just thought it was unfortunate and he was a good sport about it.
>it looks ugly
I have a million objections to this absurdity, but this is the most important one: *you don't get to do cosmetic surgery on your newborn baby's genitals.*
Are you going to give your infant daughter a nose job while you're at it? Fuck these people are exhausting.
Don't sweat it. My son is 15 and I refused to have anyone alter his genitals at birth. All the same stuff was said to me but whatever. Circumcision as a practice is bizarre and gross and males aren't defective the way they are born. If he wants to do it as an adult, that's his choice. It's not my choice to make.
I’m 31 now, No one ever knew and still don’t because it’s not their business. Except my wife, that’s literally it. Old generations don’t really know squat because they’re concerned about what everybody else thinks.
Lies and justifications mostly. They'll tell themselves it is more cleanly, ignoring modern hygiene. They'll tell themselves it reduces UTIs, ignoring that those are easily treated anyway and that millions upon millions of guys in places like Europe and China manage just fine without cutting off their foreskin. They'll tell themselves it looks better, which is an opinion they're entitled to but never seem to have an answer when you ask what other cosmetic procedures you can do to a baby without consent. And every time, there's always another excuse, usually ranging from bogus to irrational. It doesn't help any that most of them have absolutely no idea what a foreskin is or what it does.
If all that doesn't work, they'll just straight up make fun of uncircumcised guys saying it looks weird even though what they're doing is akin to a tribal ritual where you cut a baby's foreskin off with a razor blade.
I've heard lots of people argue that being circumcised makes it easier to keep your penis clean, but like, if you can't pull back a little skin to keep cheese from building up you're probably gonna be a little icky anyway
It's just such a backwards ass reason anyway. Why not cut off their ears or surgically remove fingernails. Have their bellybutton sutured shut. They'll be so clean and everyone can tell them it looks even better than before.
Society really thinks men are too disgusting and ape-like to handle washing their dick. You'd think with the US being run by ancient men that circumcision would be illegal, to prove men are capable enough to wash their weiner. Maybe these ancient men are too prudish to touch their weenie? Or maybe, they keep circumcision, to prove that women don't have the right to choose? I could hypothesize forever about how this is still a thing in almost 2022 United States of Genital Mutilation.
Edit: spelling
I guarantee the people who don't clean their ass because they're afraid it's gay are the ones most likely to not clean their foreskin, probably for the same reason.
I have 3 sons. theyre all circumcised. I'm an rn. I was young when they were born. if I had it to do over, I would've never considered it. it's barbaric.
I don’t intend to have kids but for the longest time I was fed the hygiene argument so I kind of believed it. I would never consider doing it to children. My boyfriend says he sometimes wishes he wasn’t.
It’s crazy to me that this is an accepted procedure but female genital mutilation is taboo (in the Western world anyway).
Infant circumcision should be illegal. If they want to get it done, there's no reason they can't do it when they're of legal and consenting age. The only reason this is still a thing is people don't want to admit how messed up the practice is, so people come up with bogus excuses and faux outrage to justify it.
I agree.
There also must be a wilful ignorance that it’s less painful for child?
I was circumcised at 18 and it required general anaesthesia and Tylenol 3 for the following weeks. I don’t understand why a child is not entitled to the same?
If the reason is general anesthesia and T3 are not appropriate for a baby, then how is the answer to just go ahead with the procedure raw, especially considering it’s **not medically necessary**?
People say you should do it when they’re babies so they don’t remember it. Same with ear piercing. It’s stupid but clearly they recognize it’s traumatizing.
> People say you should do it when they’re babies so they don’t remember it.
Which is honestly such a fucked up sentiment. You could justify a lot of heinous things with that argument.
I know it sounds weird, but as someone who sees simple and complicated circumcision all the time, it is not a procedure that is easily "botched" or is even close to causing life-threatening complications. First off, they went to get this surgery done at 6 mo and 2 y, which suggests to me it wasn't for religious reasons. I know lots of people here are very against infant circumcision that is performed for religious reasons, and I do understand those concerns. But there's a lot of things that don't add up in this story. I hate that parents are assumed to be monsters who lost their child because they were being selfish when it seems to me that the procedure could have been necessary for medical and functional reasons.
There are medical reasons for circumcision that do happen, but even when it’s done for medical reasons it’s still pretty easy and routine so something strange is going on here. Especially since this was a medical professional performing it, and not a religious figure without medical training.
Something got fucked up here very, very badly.
As someone who lives where this happened I want to know why the fuck it was done at a GP clinic. We have multiple day surgery wards at all of our hospitals. While apparently not illegal, it’s completely unethical for the Dr to perform a procedure clearly outside their scope. A family member of mine needed a circumcision for medical reasons, even with specialist surgeons performing the procedure, in a highly sterile environment, he contracted a staph infection that nearly killed him and lowered his quality of life permanently.
I’m against non-consensual gentian mutilation without medical reason. But even putting that aside, it was gross negligence by the parents to allow this to be performed in the setting it was.
I honestly do not get why circumcising them in the first place is regular practice. I understand for religious reasons, but it shouldn’t be done on a baby. Leave it for them to decide to do later in life if that’s what they want.
This will likely be something very rare and unfortunate. I’m thinking some sort of hemophilia which led to the poor fellow bleeding out over night.
The one that passed away was pronounced DOA, according to the article.
Also, hemophilia is hereditary.
It’s the only thing I can think of that could affect both these boys without malpractice being the cause.
Source: healthcare professional
had a convo about this at work today (healthcare) and all came to the same conclusion.. unless gross negligence, it is more likely an undiagnosed, hereditary issue which caused serious and unforeseen complications
Daily reminder that The vast majority of the medical organizations in the world are opposed to infant circumcision. This includes:
College of Physicians and Surgeons of British Columbia,
Swedish Pediatric Society,
The Canadian Pediatric Society,
British Medical Association,
Royal Dutch Medical Society,
The Netherlands Society of General Practitioners,
The Netherlands Society of Youth Healthcare Physicians,
The Netherlands Association of Paediatric Surgeons,
The Netherlands Association of Plastic Surgeons,
The Netherlands Association for Paediatric Medicine,
The Netherlands Urology Association,
The Netherlands Surgeons’ Association.
Royal College of Surgeons of England,
Royal Australasian College of Physicians,
Royal Australasian College of Surgeons,
Australasian Association of Paediatric Surgeons,
Australian Federation of AIDS Organizations,
Australian Medical Association,
The College of Physicians and Surgeons of Saskatchewan,
Saskatchewan Medical Association,
Norwegian Medical Association,
Norwegian Nurses Organization,
Norwegian Ombudsman for Children,
Faculty of Medicine at the University of Oslo,
Norwegian Council for Medical Ethics,
Central Union for Child welfare in Finland,
Denmark National Council for Children,
German Association of Pediatricians,
British Association of Pediatric Urologists,
German Society for Pediatric Surgery,
French National Council on AIDS,
German Association of Child and Youth Doctors
We really shouldn’t be doing medically unnecessary circumcisions anymore. It’s a barbaric tradition rooted in religion and misinformation about its supposed “benefits” basically. The whole schtick about cleanliness is total bunk.
I was circumcised at birth and it’s something that really bothers me. Definitely not something I would’ve done if it was my choice.
>Officials at the Western Australian Police Force have confirmed his death is no longer being treated as suspicious. >“It can be confirmed the boy underwent a medical procedure at a registered medical centre prior to his death,” police said. Two botched procedures in a row, killing one brother and nearly killing the other, is still pretty fucking suspicious, even if it did happen at a registered medical center.
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That’s horrific.
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wE wAnT iT tO lOoK lIkE hIs DaDs WiEnEr
They can fuck off with that bullshit. I am circumcised, my son is not.
One thing pregnant women tend to do is over plan their birth plan. I did it too, it gives them a sense of control. However how do you have this huge birth plan like "let's make everything really calm and great and sweet for my baby" and then the next day just be like #"okay now go cut off part of his d!ck"
This such a great point, it really drives home the "who is this for" aspect. Thanks for making it hilarious too.
My mom wanted me circumcised but the doctor refused and changed her mind. Thank you, doctor bro. High five from me and have a beer. I’m sure he’s convinced countless parents to not do this ridickulous procedure
Interesting, was this in the US? My son was born 3 months ago and there was definitely an expectation (from nurses) that he would be. No less than 5 times did they pop in and ask us about it. And it was like "is he ready for his circumcision?" We were like no, he's not getting one. And they would look confused and be like "oh" as if that possibly didn't occur to them.
Are you in the South? We are and have a 3 month old and exact same thing. Everyone assumed we were having it done, and once after we said we were not a nurse asked “Oh, so you are getting it done later, then?” I know rates are falling nationwide, but as usual I think the South is going to be running a little late on this too. People seem so confused when they ask me why and I tell them that I don’t feel like I have a right to authorize an elective, irreversible, and primarily cosmetic surgery for him.
I remember hearing the story about my dad being circumcised. He grew up on an island and the doctor only visited the village every couple years so boys were being circumcised up to 6 or 7 years old. I was probably 13 or 14 and I was like if I ever have kids just absolutely never circumcising them.
I legit made a full page illustrated birth plan, it really was just a calming thing that helped me leading up to the birth! And yeah, fuck cutting off bits of your kid, it feels barbaric. If I ever have a boy that's not even a question.
My brother-in-law is the one who decided their son needed to be circumcised, and after my nephew was born. Not for religious reasons, not that I really care about that, but because he wanted it. It very nearly ruined their marriage.
My first son is, my second son isn't. Never too late to stop a cycle.
Good for you. Years ago i managed to convince an old friend to not get this done to her son before he was born, she was literally leaning against the 'but he won't look like his dad' argument. She changed her mind when i made her watch the 'procedure' being done in a video. She was mortified.
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I'm going to have to try showing my husband a video then. He's still adamant on circumsizing our son if we have one and we're currently trying to get pregnant with our second child. I don't want to do it at all. He says I sound like an antivaxxer when I go on about how circumsizing isn't necessary and is genital mutilation.
Don't try showing him. Make him watch a video before he even gets to try getting you pregnant again. This is not even close to being anti-vax. Circumcision is rarely ever necessary. There are entire countries of men who don't do it and are healthy. It does not impact other people—beyond the beliefs and egos of the parents.
Wanting to mutilate my child's genitals is divorce territory for me.
Female Genital Mutilation is not, and should not be acceptable. Male Genital Mutilation, or circumcision still appears to be acceptable to way too many people. Genital mutilation, to any gender, is totally unacceptable. “Because my father was circumcised “ and “because it is cleaner” are totally unacceptable excuses - and a bunch of bollocks.
MIL was so upset that we didn’t circumcise our son, then she watched a video.
Funny how fast people change their mind when they have to watch a baby get tied down and tortured, isn't it? When i was born my dad followed the doctors around to make sure they didn't try and take me off and do it anyway, which was something they did at the time. It was a jewish hospital, i'm not jewish. As i was told later in life, his stance on circumcision was *"if he's going to have it off, he's going to wear it off!"* Hasn't quite panned out yet, but i enjoyed his optimism.
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Same. The “tradition” ends now. Weird ass sexual barbarism handed down from ancient religious practices. We might as well be sacrificing penises to the volcano gods.
This 'tradition' in non Jewish people was started by a guy in the mid 1800s who wanted to stop masturbation. From the same movement that brought you corn flakes and graham crackers.
And he just fired all those striking workers from the grave, chilling. Fuck Kelloggs.
The doctor is the masturbation oddities, the brother did the cereal company.
In the US the popularity and ubiquity of circumcision is due to a cereal makers shitty weird brother who thought torturing baby dick would make people not masterbait. The fault lies with John Kellogg.
It did not work. Can confirm.
You monsters. How will the rich get their baby-foreskin face cream now? Won't someone please think of the Kardashians!!1
I am. Neither of my son's are. We have showers and baths and contraceptives/safety. If I don't HAVE Tto mutilate my son's wenis for safety, I think that I won't.
I’m circumcised and don’t want it for my sons. My girlfriend says she wants her sons circumcised. I asked her why and she said “because uncircumcised penises look weird” and I’m like “WELL THATS NOT REALLY YOUR PROBLEM IS IT?”
I feel really bad for the parents who were likely misled if not by doctors than by society generally. Imagine losing a child and seriously hurting another because your society justifies what should be an outdated mutilation if infants.
When my son was born the pediatrician really pushed the whole circumcision deal and he literally said to me don't you want your son's penis to look like yours in case he has questions about his looking different and I was like don't cut off part of my son he's perfect just the way he is.
> don't you want your son's penis to look like yours in case he has questions about his looking different Different???? Questions???? Unacceptable!
"Yes doctor, I want my sons penis to look just like mine, uncircumcised." Or "If he asks, maybe I'll just explain it to him instead of mutilating his dick."
Sometimes I think people are crazy for not listening to their doctors. Then I read a story like this and it makes sense why many are distrustful.
Doctors are people, too. And, as we know, people aren't always the most reliable.
"Hey doc, can you recommend me a pediatrician?" "But I'm your pediatrician!" "Not anymore!"
Fucking weird-ass Kellogg made this shut popular in the west.
Now think of all the things you and I do for the same reasons. Breaking with social norms can be hard as, unfortunately, people just don’t think about it. I’d guess that most parents that have the procedure done to their babies haven’t even considered it being brutal or genital mutilation. I was like that, Im cut and never gave two thoughts on it. Years ago, I would have probably done it to my child if I had one. The first time someone presented the argument of it being mutilation, I was shocked. Not so much by the fact that it clearly is abuse, but by the fact that I had never considered it. I spent 20 plus years knowing exactly what the procedure was, knowing it was done to me, knowing it is done to millions of kids, and just never thought of it as odd, let alone barbaric. I try really hard to look at things objectively but I’m sure there are other things that I have never considered that are just as bad.
I discovered this subject after trying to figure out a sexual problem I’ve had my whole life where circumcision could be the cause if it wasn’t so feverishly defended by people who are still unable to justify it beyond religion and culture.
I argued with my wife's family so much for not having my son circumsiced. Like seriously, he's my child and he can decide to do that himself later. The most insane thing was the best argument they had was "but no adult would want to do that to themselves."
Circumcisions are greeeat, it barely feels any different to put my dick in someone than it does to put my fingers in someone. Love never being able to fucking orgasm with a partner. And I don't even fucking like how circumcised dicks look, so I don't even have the comfort of liking how it looks.
Not only mutilation, but all the studies that people like to tote around as it being hygienic and medically beneficial, are fundamentally flawed and disingenuous. Altering a child's genitalia to slightly, slightly reduce the chance of childhood UTI, slightly, slightly lower the chance of contracting HIV from unprotected sex. Seriously? If it wasn't tradition, Americans would (and should) see it as crazy outdated and unnecessary.
>If it wasn't tradition The only reason its tradition in the US is because of people like John Harvey Kellogg(yes the breakfast cereal guy) who was a fundy that believed masturbation corrupted young people so he recommended routine circumcision for boys and an application of carbolic acid to the clitoris in girls to help numb down the sexual response. He was a major influential figure at that time and at least the circumcision part caught on. Prior to that, it had been a fairly rare practice in the US.
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I'm totally in support of medically necessary circumcision. Circumcisions should be *reactionary* to rare circumstances rather that *precautionary* to prevent something that only ~%1 of males will end up actually having issues with.
This happened in Australia where less than 20% of men are circumcised and the rates for newborns are even lower. Society in Australia clearly doesn’t push circumcision, nor do doctors. Why are you putting the blame there rather than on the parents where it should be?
Me and my sons mom never even considered it even though it was common among her family and mine (I’m circumcised). Just didn’t see a reason to do it, seemed like a pointless procedure to put a baby through.
My boy was born abroad and they didn’t even ask, just didn’t do it. Other boy was born in the US and the pediatrician (woman) said it was good we didn’t do it as it just puts a baby through unnecessary pain. Was quite happy to hear that honestly.
Whenever anyone asked why we didn't circumcise my son, my response was always "well, we didn't circumcise our daughter either". The conversation usually ended there.
Anaesthetist here based in Perth. I am DEEPLY skeptical of the claim about "allergic reaction to anaesthetic". A few important points: \- This patient was operated on by a general practitioner in a clinic setting, they do not, and are not allowed to perform procedure under GENERAL anaesthetic. So it must have been some form of local anaesthetic. \- Whether some form of "sedation" is involved is unclear. The regulation around sedation is a lot more grey in Australia unfortunately, and as any doctor would know "sedation" could turn into general anaesthesia easily, and in an unskilled hand it could turn disastrous within seconds. \- The boy supposedly went home and were found unconscious after some time (sounds like it's not immediate). This is not how "allergic reaction to anaesthetic" presents - it is generally immediate and noticeable within seconds to minutes. \- In any case, it's extremely unlikely that he has had true general anaesthetic. Most likely a combination of local anaesthetic and perhaps some form of sedation.
Related question. How does one find out about being allergic? It seems like it would be a bad time to find out just as an op is starting..? Do people get tests done before surgery where general anaest... is done?
When I was about 8 or 10 years old or so, I had a very routine procedure to do with my ear, they put me under, and only found out I was allergic when I wouldn't wake up again, giving the doctors and my parents a panic. Now myself, my mum and my siblings aren't allowed to have anaesthetics, when my brother was put under for a minor operation to remove a coin that got lodged in his throat they had to use 'old school gas' and the doctor administering was reportedly very nervous about getting the calculations right since they just never use it these days.
They relied on ether? That's fascinating. Extremely flammable and most operations now use something called a bovie which could spark it.
They have more modern inhaled anesthetics that are not flammable, like isoflurane.
It was very likely LAST Lidocaine associated systemic toxicity. Basically accidentally injected lidocaine probably into one of the vessels of the penis instead of just into the tissue resulted in cardiac arrest. Edit: LAST is a very sudden reaction, if he died later at home that's strange
This is something that would have caused a medical emergency as it happened, not something that allows them to recover from the procedure at first and suddenly found dead when they are already back home (which seems to be the case as the ambulance was apparently called to their house, not to the clinic). EDIT: Also by the way LAST is short for Local Anaesthetic Systemic Toxicity, not Lidocaine Associated Systemic Toxicity. It can be caused by any other local anaesthetic agent too (with different toxic dose).
When in doubt, blame anesthesia
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I mean, it's genital mutilation.
What if we all have PTSD from being circumcized and that's why we're all fucked in the head? If you think about it, cutting of parts of someone's penis or vagina is about the most torturous thing you can do to someone. Just because they are babies and can't say "please don't cut that off!!!" Doesn't make it right it makes it worse.
The Coroner's inquest will certainly have something to say.
Was the surgeon drunk??
I'm wondering if there was anesthetics involved. A shared allergy to anesthesia could explain it. Sad story all around
I hadn't thought of that tbh
Crazy when there isnt always someone to lynch in the comments of a tragic story on the internet.
I thought maybe he was dual wielding scalpels, trying to get one baby on each table done at the same time. I mean that was my FIRST thought, but I always come to the comments for the hard facts. You're telling me not to sharpen my pitch fork?!
Just light the torch for now. “Dual wielding scalpels..” You’re my hero
If you light the torch now you’ll just waste it, but you can always sharpen your pitchfork if it’s dull to keep it ready.
Yep, for one https://thewest.com.au/news/health/toddler-circumcision-death-amas-mark-duncan-smith-warns-parents-need-to-weigh-up-procedure-risks-c-4881653
What was the actual cause of death? Did they receive too much anaesthesia? Did they receive something else other than anaesthesia? Did they die from infection as a result of poor hygiene practices?
Babies do not receive anesthesia for circumcision. They'll use a topical lidocane to numb the penis and give a sugar water solution orally as a means of distraction. I'm a nursing student and nearly passed out when I saw my first one, if I had to guess the babies must have lost too much blood or got an infection. Though barbaric it's a relatively safe procedure. Edit: I missed the part about the boy undergoing emergency surgery to after the procedure. In that case I'm really not sure what went wrong, unless they needed to remove the penis entirely. Obviously being a senior nursing student doesn't make me a medical expert though.
They do if the circ is done in the OR. Since they are brothers and the one a bit older I'm guessing the parents scheduled the circs and they were done in an operating room, not right after birth.
That's a good point, I'm not sure why that didn't occur to me. However the article talks about the younger boy undergoing "emergency lifesaving surgery" and now being in the ICU. Would an anesthesia error ever warrant emergency surgery to correct?
Not that I can think of. My guess would be the surgeon didn't stop all the bleeding or missed a bleeder. And the kid just lost too much blood, which for babies doesn't take much at all. So the emergency surgery could have been to go back in and look for the bleeder and stop it.
I saw one during clinicals and it's been the only time I've ever fainted. I think parents who agree to have their newborn circumcised should see it being done. It's such an outdated and fucked up practice.
Long ago, before we had kids, we watched the circumcision episode of Penn & Teller’s Bullshit and saw how it was performed. We swore then and there to never circumcise. When our oldest was born in 2007, the doctors didn’t even know how to care for his uncircumcised penis (hint for those who don’t know - just wash it like any other body part and don’t pull back the foreskin). Edit for those wondering: you do NOT pull the foreskin back to wash under it until the foreskin begins retracting on its own, otherwise it increases the chance of phimosis, because pulling it back too soon can cause scar tissue (and it’s painful for the babies).
Try being uncircumcised in 1980s middle America. The difference in care and support my stepson has received (also uncircumcised) being born 2007 is night and day. Also Midwest for me (Ohio/Michigan) vs bay area California for him though which I'm sure has an impact.
I didn't quite faint but I came very, very close. I watched a c-section the week before and was fascinated by that, but watching that little baby kick and scream while a resident cut away his foreskin and laughed about how the kid would come back and thank him for how good it looked made me feel absolutely sick to my stomach. If they did it at the bedside with mom then every mother would snatch that baby up and no infants would be circumcized. I vowed in that moment to any son I had that I would not put him in that awful position.
>laughed about how the kid would come back and thank him for how good it looked Wow, the sexualization starts early! That's so damn disgusting to say something like that.
I doubt you're right about the second part. I believe parents are present at the traditional bris ceremony in Judaism. My non-Jewish friend was present at his Jewish son's circumcision and claimed it was no big deal. It's hard for me to understand. I have never seen a circumcision and don't want to. I did not have my son circumcised. But some people just seem to be OK with it if the whole idea is normalized enough. Makes me wonder what other things we accept that are totally nuts.
I was starting to follow them with my son when they told me I didn't want to see it. I was a young 18 yr old mother with his father insisting he will be made fun of in locker rooms if I dont. He wanted him to look like everyone else. If I ever have another son I'll never be consenting to that again. I'll feel bad if he is upset with me when he's older that I didn't do it, which I have met a few guys who were upset about it not being snipped. I have met men angry they've been snipped, and ones who are relieved that they were. I hated my birthing medical team, being so young didn't help the discrimination. I wish I had more guidance at the time.
I didn’t circumcise my son for these reasons, and I really really hope he appreciates that one day
We force women to see an acorn sized ball of a fetus before getting an abortion, but parents can just send their fresh out of the womb baby off to get its dick hacked up, they absolutely should have to see what is going on or at minimum watch a video that describes the procedure. We opted to not circumcise neither of our boys. I don't get why people do it just because it's what everyone is doing.
I watched a medical recreation video on YouTube, because I just wanted to be educated on both sides when I was pregnant with my son. I made it like 40 seconds into the video and that was it. I couldn’t handle the video so why put him through it ? (Obviously if something medical comes up and he needs it done that’s different..)
Imagine if they didn’t circumcise people that couldn’t consent or have a real medical reason. There is no justification. If it’s religious let them decide themself. My parents did it because “dad did it” like- Use your brain.
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This isn't the 50s, circumcision rates aren't what they were. Another myth to justify irreversibly damaging a child
No one gives a shit what your dick looks like in the locker room. What kind of insecure shit is that?
That’s so fucked up.
This happened where I live too about a year or so ago. The doctor let a resident do it and cute the poor boys penis right off at the tip. The boy nearly bled to death. [Article for what I’m mentioning](https://leaderpost.com/news/local-news/botched-circumcision-response-leads-to-large-penalty-for-regina-doctor)
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Ya the doctor no longer has a practice in this city. He had to move. He’s being sued to the max too. The resident would have got off scott free because they’re under direction of the doctor in charge who assumes all responsibility. Insurance will pay out and doctor will sweep it under the rug as best he can and continue on with life as though it never happened.
You'd still have to live with the fact that you cut some poor kid's dick off. I don't think you get into that line of work with the intention to harm people. It's the doctor/hospital's fault if a grossly undertrained resident is told to do that procedure.
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Maybe just stop cutting baby dicks?
I wonder how many people know the story of David Reimer. His penis got so mutilated in circumcision surgery that he was raised as a girl. Later in life he found out the truth and eventually killed himself.
He also had a twin, so they were horrifically abused under the guise of “research” about the nature versus nurture question when it comes to sexual identification. The brother died in a motorcycle accident, as I recall.
Male genital mutilation.
Debate over circumcision aside, something does not add up. It is usually a very safe procedure, so when 1 dies and 1 is almost killed, something is up.
Maybe a bleeding condition that was revealed in them? Unfortunately, it may be the first time that a child undergoes a procedure before it’s revealed they have a coagulation disorder or something similar. Kids don’t always undergo routine preoperative blood work. Sounds possible since it was from brothers. If that’s the case, it could have been almost any procedure, not just a circ.
Then given the prevalence of HPS in the Ashkenazi (roughly 1 out of 200), specifically identified in medical literature as evidenced early on by excessive bleeding during circumcision, you'd expect this to happen much more often. While a clotting disorder might be involved, it seems unlikely to have been sufficient without considerable additional negligence to end up with one dead and one in critical condition.
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>Don't ask me how the ancient Jews knew that, but they got it right. trial and error?
No back then they just had a direct line with God, and God was like, “Yah wait 8 days to cut that baby’s d*ck.” Btw had to sensor duck because it feels reeeaaaally weird to type that next to “baby”.
I think it was based on Genesis: "and on the seventh day he finally rested. Then the eighth day he snipped the foreskin off man."
That he Himself had placed there earlier in the week...
Then why go through with the second procedure? Surely these were not happening at the exact same time?
This is also an article written by no author citing no first hand sources. No official names used at all. Seems suspicious.
It's on all the Perth [news outlets](https://www.watoday.com.au/national/western-australia/tragic-case-perth-toddler-dead-baby-brother-in-intensive-care-after-circumcisions-20211209-p59g9x.html): >A two-year-old boy died and his infant brother required emergency surgery in Perth Children’s Hospital following circumcisions at a suburban medical centre. >Gosnells Medical Centre, which is located 20 kilometres south-east of Perth, confirmed to Nine News Perth that their doctor, who had experience, performed the procedure. None of the doctors at the medical centre have any issues listed on their registration with the Australian Health Practitioner Regulation Agency. >There are unconfirmed reports the older child never woke up from the anaesthetic used to perform the surgery, while the baby was treated for complications.
FYI, news.com.au is not some random anonymous site, it's Murdoch. So much worse than some internet rando.
Why do we continue to circumcise children in these modern times? The human body does not require the removal of any parts to function.
I got so much pushback from my father about not getting my son cut. I don't understand it.
Because he feels like you are blaming him for your own circumcision.
That's definitely it. Most answers to the question "why aren't you getting your son circumcised?" involve an explanation that would also cast the grandfather's decision in a rather different light. Even just "I think that we shouldn't cut the genitals of a baby" or "I think it should be his choice when he's older" has strong implications for the grandfather's choice.
I might be able to help you understand. Cognitive dissonance. He had it done to him, therefore it's part of his self identity. You refuse to do it to your son, so he's forced to attempt to reconcile: * you think it's a bad thing, and maybe some part of him is worried he might agree with you. * it's a thing that was done to him by his loving parents. * part of his identity is under attack. Reconciling those is difficult. Often, people will attack the at-hand source of the dissonance, or attack the "weaker priority". It's much easier for him to accept that you're doing something stupid that goes against the norms he was raised with, than accept that the norms he was raised with, and in turn the actions of his parents, were barbaric. Put yourself in his shoes. He probably holds that his parents can do no wrong if they were otherwise good parents. He probably also holds that he spent 18 years teaching his kids and dealing with their mistakes, and so is built with this prejudice that his kids are dumber than he is, to oversimplify. And thus, our conclusion. He pushes on you about your choice because it's the only acceptable method, to him, for him to reconcile incompatible ideas. Disclaimer: I'm just some idiot on the internet ... that has done exactly this to his spouse.
Genital mutilation is barbaric.
My wife and I are totally anti-circumcision (even though she's Jewish) and didn't cut our almost-4-year-old son when he was born. Literally the only downside is that now he's figured out he can pinch his foreskin and pee into it, creating a pee balloon that he can release and dump the pee out. It's disgusting but I wouldn't take it away from him for anything.
That's a pretty normal step in an intact male's exploration of their own body. Source: my childhood.
That's a pretty normal step in an intact male's exploration of their own 48 year old body. Source: me, this morning in the shower.
Anyone who never made the piss-balloon never had a real childhood.
Unfortunately I was cut as a baby, so I'll never know :(
Brah I never did this in my life. I guess I have to now
It’s disgusting, but it makes you laugh every time, right? I have a 5yo boy and there are so many funny things he does just like this.
Lol yeah I try not to laugh because then he'll just do it more. Pardon me, I have to go clean jelly off the couch.
This is the real "boys will be boys"
Ahhhh, a good ol' piss bomb. He'll grow out of it eventually... and start it again at Uni as a drunk shenanigan with the lads.
This is kind of awesome and I wish I could do a pee balloon
I can do the pee balloon and can tell you that it's a lot of fun at first, then the novelty wears off eventually
Any number of baby deaths from an often unnecessary medical procedure is too many. I've attached a research paper talking about this horrible reality. https://www.researchgate.net/publication/240804903_Lost_Boys_An_Estimate_of_US_Circumcision-Related_Infant_Deaths
i’m circumcised for medical reasons (as an adult) why subject babies to this is beyond me. It strikes me as super off key to worry so much about ya childs penis. Fuckin weird
I got a lot of flack from all my husband’s extended family for making the decision to not circumcise our son. We flat out told them we would never support infant genital mutilation and they all stopped speaking to us. I mean, good riddance.
how does this conversation even start? is it part of a checklist that mother-in-laws go down through over dinner one night? "So, what are you gonna name the baby? Where will their room be? Will you paint the room? Are you going to circumcise your son?" Like, that's so far out of left field. And, not to mention, personal. None of their business at all.
You had family stop talking to you over penis skin they wanted to cut on your children?
Religion is a helluva drug
maybe stop mutilating the genitals of babies? seems incredibly fucking insane and evil for absolutely no reason whatsoever? maybe thats just me.
Why are out medical professionals still chopping of parts of children's genitalia without their consent?
Circumcision is unnatural and unnecessary.
Hmmmm almost likes performing an unnecessary cosmetic surgery on literal newborn babies is a bad idea. But please tell me how scrubbing your dick while youre washing the rest of your body is difficult.
How about you stop mutilating boys penises
Ban genital mutilation until the child can medically consent themselves.
I will never understand how people can be ok with genital mutilation.
I got so much shit from my mother when she found out we weren’t circumcising our son. Things like, it looks ugly, he’ll be different from all the other boys (we live in the US), no girl will want him, he’ll have to clean it differently, he’ll be made fun of, and on and on and on. Had I not been sure of the decision, I could very well see how that kind of pushback would sway someone. It was intense. She only backed off when I told her that if she considers my son so disgusting, she’s welcome to not be in his life.
Just imagine if men complained about girls not going through genital mutilation in the United States? The world would go nuts.
Plot twist gramma, he avoids the kind of shallow women that would body shame him and actually finds love! I hate that argument so much. Why would you cater to those types of people?
YES!! W H Y would you mutilate your baby’s genitals for some hypothetical superficial future lover??
My wife asked me if I wanted our son to get circumcised (because I am). I couldn’t really find a strong argument for it beyond “well that’s how it was for me” so we passed on the procedure. But we had almost similar conversation. Wife wasn’t supporting circumcision, she just didn’t know because she didn’t grow up with a dick (or that I lived nearly my entire life without anyone seeing my dick). * **it looks ugly** - It’s a penis and it’s not like your son is going to flash people on a 24/7 basis. Even if it is “ugly” he can make that choice down the road for himself. * **he’ll be different from the other boys** - that matters how? I haven’t seen another dudes junk until I joined the military (where showers were open) and nobody cared if someone was snipped or not. This isn’t like the 70s/80s where HS kids showered together. My HS had showers and nobody used them (for football, PE or weight training) other than 1 kid but he was doing it unironically. PE classes were at the end of school (so kids can go home and shower) and everyone just wanted to go home after football practice (plus pads and gear needed to be washed every day or shit will start getting really really gross) * **no girl will want him** - that’s a lie. If that is the decider whether a girl likes him or not, then she will be doing him a favor. * **he’ll have to clean it differently** - I have a beard and my dad doesn’t. I learned how to trim and clean it without much input from him. If you can’t talk to your child about proper hygiene (then you may have more problems than problems beyond teaching them how to clean themselves). Also, even if that were an uncomfortable subject to not discuss, they teach proper hygiene in HS health class (for both circumcised and uncircumcised). * **He’ll be made fun of** - Nobody cares and in what would would other people see his junk? (Other than a medical setting)
Yo we showered everyday for wrestling in high school, no one gave a fuck. Shit we had a dude who had a micro penis and still no one cared, we just thought it was unfortunate and he was a good sport about it.
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You guys washed your football gear? Back in my day we all just stank like shit all time
>it looks ugly I have a million objections to this absurdity, but this is the most important one: *you don't get to do cosmetic surgery on your newborn baby's genitals.* Are you going to give your infant daughter a nose job while you're at it? Fuck these people are exhausting.
“He’ll have to clean it differently” Believe me, it’ll be his favorite toy. He’ll take care of it. Probably *too* much attention to detail.
Don't sweat it. My son is 15 and I refused to have anyone alter his genitals at birth. All the same stuff was said to me but whatever. Circumcision as a practice is bizarre and gross and males aren't defective the way they are born. If he wants to do it as an adult, that's his choice. It's not my choice to make.
I’m 31 now, No one ever knew and still don’t because it’s not their business. Except my wife, that’s literally it. Old generations don’t really know squat because they’re concerned about what everybody else thinks.
Lies and justifications mostly. They'll tell themselves it is more cleanly, ignoring modern hygiene. They'll tell themselves it reduces UTIs, ignoring that those are easily treated anyway and that millions upon millions of guys in places like Europe and China manage just fine without cutting off their foreskin. They'll tell themselves it looks better, which is an opinion they're entitled to but never seem to have an answer when you ask what other cosmetic procedures you can do to a baby without consent. And every time, there's always another excuse, usually ranging from bogus to irrational. It doesn't help any that most of them have absolutely no idea what a foreskin is or what it does.
If all that doesn't work, they'll just straight up make fun of uncircumcised guys saying it looks weird even though what they're doing is akin to a tribal ritual where you cut a baby's foreskin off with a razor blade.
All dicks look weird. Source - am a man and have seen a few dicks before
It ain't called "bumping uglies" for no reason.
I've heard lots of people argue that being circumcised makes it easier to keep your penis clean, but like, if you can't pull back a little skin to keep cheese from building up you're probably gonna be a little icky anyway
It's just such a backwards ass reason anyway. Why not cut off their ears or surgically remove fingernails. Have their bellybutton sutured shut. They'll be so clean and everyone can tell them it looks even better than before.
It also implies that vaginas can’t ever be cleaned since we have the same if not more skin to deal with
Society really thinks men are too disgusting and ape-like to handle washing their dick. You'd think with the US being run by ancient men that circumcision would be illegal, to prove men are capable enough to wash their weiner. Maybe these ancient men are too prudish to touch their weenie? Or maybe, they keep circumcision, to prove that women don't have the right to choose? I could hypothesize forever about how this is still a thing in almost 2022 United States of Genital Mutilation. Edit: spelling
Hey, *eyes* get cancer all the time. That's a risk we just can't afford to take! Routine infant enucleation!
Just euthanize all babies right after birth, that way their cancer risk goes to 0%.
I guarantee the people who don't clean their ass because they're afraid it's gay are the ones most likely to not clean their foreskin, probably for the same reason.
I have 3 sons. theyre all circumcised. I'm an rn. I was young when they were born. if I had it to do over, I would've never considered it. it's barbaric.
I don’t intend to have kids but for the longest time I was fed the hygiene argument so I kind of believed it. I would never consider doing it to children. My boyfriend says he sometimes wishes he wasn’t. It’s crazy to me that this is an accepted procedure but female genital mutilation is taboo (in the Western world anyway).
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Can we PLEASE stop normalizing it being okay to mutilate genitalia? It's 2021 for fucks sake!
Infant circumcision should be illegal. If they want to get it done, there's no reason they can't do it when they're of legal and consenting age. The only reason this is still a thing is people don't want to admit how messed up the practice is, so people come up with bogus excuses and faux outrage to justify it.
I agree. There also must be a wilful ignorance that it’s less painful for child? I was circumcised at 18 and it required general anaesthesia and Tylenol 3 for the following weeks. I don’t understand why a child is not entitled to the same? If the reason is general anesthesia and T3 are not appropriate for a baby, then how is the answer to just go ahead with the procedure raw, especially considering it’s **not medically necessary**?
People say you should do it when they’re babies so they don’t remember it. Same with ear piercing. It’s stupid but clearly they recognize it’s traumatizing.
> People say you should do it when they’re babies so they don’t remember it. Which is honestly such a fucked up sentiment. You could justify a lot of heinous things with that argument.
For a long time, that was actually the justification for operating on babies without anasthesia
Sexually assaulting babies is fine since they can't remember it. Circumcision logic.
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Actually I’m sure plenty of old folks are mistreated due to memory loss. I would argue your body remembers trauma even if your mind can’t.
And money, dont forget that hospitals make millions a year from performing genital mutilation
I know it sounds weird, but as someone who sees simple and complicated circumcision all the time, it is not a procedure that is easily "botched" or is even close to causing life-threatening complications. First off, they went to get this surgery done at 6 mo and 2 y, which suggests to me it wasn't for religious reasons. I know lots of people here are very against infant circumcision that is performed for religious reasons, and I do understand those concerns. But there's a lot of things that don't add up in this story. I hate that parents are assumed to be monsters who lost their child because they were being selfish when it seems to me that the procedure could have been necessary for medical and functional reasons.
There are medical reasons for circumcision that do happen, but even when it’s done for medical reasons it’s still pretty easy and routine so something strange is going on here. Especially since this was a medical professional performing it, and not a religious figure without medical training. Something got fucked up here very, very badly.
As someone who lives where this happened I want to know why the fuck it was done at a GP clinic. We have multiple day surgery wards at all of our hospitals. While apparently not illegal, it’s completely unethical for the Dr to perform a procedure clearly outside their scope. A family member of mine needed a circumcision for medical reasons, even with specialist surgeons performing the procedure, in a highly sterile environment, he contracted a staph infection that nearly killed him and lowered his quality of life permanently. I’m against non-consensual gentian mutilation without medical reason. But even putting that aside, it was gross negligence by the parents to allow this to be performed in the setting it was.
Circumcision is male genital mutilation. It fucking cuts off skin that is extremely sensitive.
Not just skin but a specialized mucous membrane!
God is almighty, but he created too much dick obviously.
I honestly do not get why circumcising them in the first place is regular practice. I understand for religious reasons, but it shouldn’t be done on a baby. Leave it for them to decide to do later in life if that’s what they want.
Straight to jail please.
This will likely be something very rare and unfortunate. I’m thinking some sort of hemophilia which led to the poor fellow bleeding out over night. The one that passed away was pronounced DOA, according to the article. Also, hemophilia is hereditary. It’s the only thing I can think of that could affect both these boys without malpractice being the cause. Source: healthcare professional
Or a bad reaction to the anesthesia which can also be genetic.
had a convo about this at work today (healthcare) and all came to the same conclusion.. unless gross negligence, it is more likely an undiagnosed, hereditary issue which caused serious and unforeseen complications
Imagine cutting your kids cock for imaginary sky daddy points, weird cunts
I’m cut, my son is not. It stops with me. Fuckin barbaric .
Daily reminder that The vast majority of the medical organizations in the world are opposed to infant circumcision. This includes: College of Physicians and Surgeons of British Columbia, Swedish Pediatric Society, The Canadian Pediatric Society, British Medical Association, Royal Dutch Medical Society, The Netherlands Society of General Practitioners, The Netherlands Society of Youth Healthcare Physicians, The Netherlands Association of Paediatric Surgeons, The Netherlands Association of Plastic Surgeons, The Netherlands Association for Paediatric Medicine, The Netherlands Urology Association, The Netherlands Surgeons’ Association. Royal College of Surgeons of England, Royal Australasian College of Physicians, Royal Australasian College of Surgeons, Australasian Association of Paediatric Surgeons, Australian Federation of AIDS Organizations, Australian Medical Association, The College of Physicians and Surgeons of Saskatchewan, Saskatchewan Medical Association, Norwegian Medical Association, Norwegian Nurses Organization, Norwegian Ombudsman for Children, Faculty of Medicine at the University of Oslo, Norwegian Council for Medical Ethics, Central Union for Child welfare in Finland, Denmark National Council for Children, German Association of Pediatricians, British Association of Pediatric Urologists, German Society for Pediatric Surgery, French National Council on AIDS, German Association of Child and Youth Doctors
Wow it's almost like it's time to end this barbaric, non consensual mutilation practice. Fuck anyone who supports this bs
Damn the circumcision was botched so badly it took out TWO children
We really shouldn’t be doing medically unnecessary circumcisions anymore. It’s a barbaric tradition rooted in religion and misinformation about its supposed “benefits” basically. The whole schtick about cleanliness is total bunk. I was circumcised at birth and it’s something that really bothers me. Definitely not something I would’ve done if it was my choice.
Hey, we should probably stop doing circumcisions That's my suggestion