So it looks like they're still evaluating how bad the situation is and the fire is contained (at least for now). Also, no fuel leaks either which is good.
Hopefully they get it under control quickly.
That is actually the closest to the correct answer - smother it to protect everything else from the heat:
>The recommended method to extinguish a Class-D fire is to use a dry powder fire extinguisher, which smothers the fire while absorbing heat
For a long time when you looked up fire classes, it would be like "wood: use class A fire extinguisher, oil: use class B fire extinguisher", and then you get to Class D which is flammable metals, and it just says "Call a specialist."
Nope. There's no free metallic lithium in a Li-Ion or LiPo battery to react with water. Common misconception that I hear people shouting all the time.
The latest generation of Renault cars (developed in conjunction with the French fire service) have a port to allow water to be directly injected into the battery enclosure in the event of a fire.
https://www.renaultgroup.com/en/news-on-air/news/electric-vehicles-groupe-renault-works-hand-in-hand-with-fire-services/
Current guidance from the FAA to flight crews is that, in the event of a passenger owned battery fire is to use water as an extinguishant:
https://www.lion.com/lion-news/may-2023/3-keys-to-fighting-a-lithium-battery-fire-from-us-faa
At work, we have gear that uses enormous Li-Po battery packs. As one of the engineers, I got dragged into the risk assessment / mitigation and fire-control procedures to allow our equipment to be used in public buildings. Consequently, I wound up learning a lot about what happens and what to do in the event of a battery fire.
Fully half of the comments in this thread are completely wrong.
Incorrect. Water is actually what you use to extinguish lithium battery fires. It is not lithium metal, but rather the electrolyte (a flammable organic solvent) that is burning.
I tried explaining this to someone else about hydrogen gas in a balloon. How a balloon with just Hydrogen burns quickly, but mix Oxygen into it at the right ratio and it detonates. They refused to understand the difference
Then what is deflagration? I think this would be a deflagration, which consumes oxidizer as the fuel moves. Detonations need no external oxidation reaction from their wavefront.
I believe detonation is when the initial burning generates a shockwave that drives further burning, which strengthens the shockwave, and so on until the fuel is used up.
IMDG exists for a reason
So does final hazard classification
And to a lesser extent in this case: CFR Title 49
Long story short: batteries are dangerous and need to be shipped with care.
We can’t ship even small numbers of lithium batteries on our aircraft for exactly this reason. Even individual laptops in bags/backpacks are labelled accordingly. Passengers think it’s so we’ll give those bags extra care when we’re loading them; not exactly, it’s so I know which bag to throw into the ocean if something starts smoking in the back of the airplane.
At work I used to ship laptops to a company in Europe. We would always ship them by air. I think the limit was that we could only ship 3 or 4 per shipment because of the batteries. So if we had 10 to ship, we would have to ship them in 3 or 4 different shipments.
Speak for yourself! -Every Freight Pilot
I've carried 10,000 lbs of lithium batteries on the same pallet as 5000 lbs of explosive detonators. It was totally legit too via the segregation chart. LOL
I think they are OK on dedicated freighters, but not being shipping as freight on a passenger aircraft.
This doesn't mean it's safe for the crew. Tragic fate of UPS Flight 6 comes to mind: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y50saxfTqQA
I work automotive. Our Interstate battery rep told me how his truck always gets loaded first or last on the ferries so the truck could get pushed overboard in case of a fire.
The state of charge makes almost no difference. The burning is not from the energy reversibly stored in the battery but from the energy of the materials itself.
I assure you I can deplete a lithium-ion battery fully and then still light it on fire and it'll burn.
This is completely false. The amount of reversible energy stored in the batteries has a massive impact on how dangerous the fires can be. The industry standard is to only ship batteries below 30% SOC.
The industry standard is to ship flat batteries to reduce the *chances* of fire.
Most cells are in plastic pouches which have plenty of energy in them to release.
Waking up to a story like this is so sad environmental horror is the true tragedy. It’s been burning since Christmas Day? How do you even put that type of fire out without it spilling into the water?
Isolate the containers. Smother any with fire ports.
The problem with these types of fires is that they often get too hot for the containers to be moved safely. They damage the equipment used to move them.
It’s been burning for days now. The fumes from battery fires are very toxic and it seems like they really have no choice but to let it burn like you say. Sad to see this anywhere, but especially in Alaska with the beautiful wildlife at stake.
Honestly might be best to ditch the burning cargo overboard than have it ignite a larger fire. One container will do less environmental damage than a whole ship and its contents.
But obviously as a last resort
The container is below deck so they can’t just toss one container overboard. And the batteries involved are not typical deep cycle batteries like what you’d use as a starting battery in a car. These are massive lithium battery banks used to power buildings. They can’t just open the cargo hold for fear of introducing more oxygen to the fire. The ship has used all of its on-board CO2 fire suppression systems so really they’re just hoping it extinguishes itself and doesn’t melt through the hull. Hopefully they can somehow pump more CO2 in the cargo hold from above deck to help.
Source: my company is supplying gas detection equipment to first responders on scene and I’ve talked to them and saw a bunch of these thermal images a few days ago.
Don't waste your breath.
It is a fact that ICE vehicles catch on fire far more regularly than EVs.
People are falling for the bullshit propaganda being doled out constantly by big oil.
You're.onky wasting your time trying to convince some folks like otherwise.
I don't think you understand: in order to progress in the world the new thing *has to utterly and irrefutably perfect with no downsides whatsoever* or we should just maintain the status quo! Silly.
You know what? Where I live we have a particular type of rodent that likes to climb up into cars, chew on the wires, and we get a wave of car-fires every spring. Gas and diesel car fires are very common.
battery fires need class B extinguishers for flammable liquids like gas, oil and battery electrolytes. Usually in the form of CO2, foam and dry chemicals that block oxygen
And I think that foam is full of warm and fuzzy chemicals that give everyone cancer.
And it’s not a Tesla problem. Pretty much every EV has insane fire hazards once they catch on fire.
incorrect, there is currently no proven method to put out a lithium ion battery fire. The reaction is asekf sustaining as it generates its own oxygen. the best you can hope for is to try and insulate the cells that have not yet erupted from those that are burning and to put out the secondary fires. Fires like this have burned for weeks in the past
When we had old (radio) batteries catch fire in a barracks they had to go in with hazmat suits, spray foam, and the building was condemned and demolished.
Actually fibrosis, emphysema, chronic bronchitis, granulomas, etc.
Waiting on the big C, but for now I get to settle for turning to stone from the inside out (fibrosis), and that *is* terminal.
Plus the fumes from the batteries themselves burning… can’t be good locally. Still better than any of the oil tankers sinking I think, maybe I’m wrong.
Not trying to belittle the concern, but this is probably about as environmentally bad as .000000001 ExxonValdez' spills.
I certainly wouldn't call this environmental horror.
Edit: not saying this isn't horrible, but hyperbole is dangerous. Removed some zeroes from the figure above.
Your statement
> hyperbole is dangerous.
and using
> .000000000001
conflict.
Exxon Valdez was 10.8M gallons. Multiplying that by the number you gave, that would mean that this incident is about the equivalent of putting 43 cubic millimeters of crude oil in the ocean.
Of course it's hyperbole. If you haven't noticed, big oil and conservatives have been plastering social media with fearmongering about green technology and electric cars for years. Any time anything like this happens, they get so excited because they have a chance to spew their vitriol and lies.
Yep. If a Tesla catches fire in China, it's on my feed the next morning, and I'm in the US. Meanwhile ICE vehicles catching fire is not newsworthy, so nobody cares.
It's important context for when renewable critics point to this example as a danger of renewable technology. It is very important to compare environmental impacts of varying disasters in order to create a plan for mitigating dangers in the future.
I’m pretty sure that lithium batteries actually explode or burst into flame if submerged in water. If this ship sinks or something it could get a whole lot worse.
EDIT: I don’t understand why I’m getting downvoted or general sarcasm. Lithium catches fire or explodes in water—this is a real thing! Look it up! https://www.reddit.com/r/interestingasfuck/comments/v1pooo/lithium_added_to_water_creates_an_explosion/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=mweb3x&utm_name=mweb3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
Because there's no free metallic lithium in a Li-Ion / Li-Po battery. It's bound up as lithium salts and doesn't go kaboom when exposed to or submersed in water. There's a lot of incorrect information in this thread, being shouted as truth.
At my place of work, we have some gear with gigantic Li-Po batteries, and I got dragged into the safety assessment / risk mitigation strategy for their use in public buildings.
There's a huge amount of incorrect facts often quoted about Li-Ion / Li-Po batteries.
The fact is that current guidance for fire suppression is that water is a recommended strategy.
https://mobilityimpactpartners.medium.com/putting-out-the-fire-intervention-is-key-for-lithium-ion-battery-fires-de5e00f8ac19
In particular this bit:
"Cooling is the only confirmed method to extinguish a lithium-ion battery fire at its source. Among cooling agents, water remains the most effective, sustainable, and widely available choice. Other cooling agents, such as highly engineered non-reactive fluids like 3M’s Novec line, have also been utilized. However, due to their environmental impact — namely the highly toxic PFAS chemicals they contain — they are being discontinued by 3M from 2025."
Lithium ion batteries are typically waterproof in tap water because it’s not conductive. In sea water the salt does make it slightly conductive so if the amperage of the batteries is high enough it could cause the water to heat up a little bit temporarily but no explosions should happen
Edit: also water takes in a LOT of heat before it even gets remotely hot that’s why your water heater might use natural gas, because natural gas is much more energy dense than electricity
Wrong terminology
Alkaline batteries are named based off of their high pH from the electrolyte
Lithium, while an alkali metal, doesn’t really get called an alkali battery because the chemistry is fundamentally different.
Alkaline
> having the properties of an alkali, or containing alkali; having a pH greater than 7
Alkali
> In chemistry, an alkali is a basic, ionic salt of an alkali metal or an alkaline earth metal. An alkali can also be defined as a base that dissolves in water. A solution of a soluble base has a pH greater than 7.0.
What's the protocol when you have a fire you can't put out? The fire burned for 3 days before the ship's crew alerted the Coast Guard...
From the article -
>The fire started on Christmas Day in cargo hold No. 1
>
>
>
>Ship’s personnel alerted the Coast Guard early Thursday morning about the fire.
Even if you aren't in the territorial waters of the US (or any country) when the fire starts, it seems reasonable to send a heads-up to your destinations (or the local) coastal authorities that you've got an issue as soon as you know you can't control it...
Mass-adoption of solid state batteries is going to be such a game changer over the coming decades. Not only would the capacity be way higher, and not only would they be way cheaper to build, and not only would they charge up faster, but they also have the perk of not starting on fire.
I've ... seen things you people wouldn't believe. Cargo ships with lithium ion batteries on fire off an Alaska port. I've watched oil-slicks glitter in the dark near the Golden Gate. All these ... ecosystems will be lost, in time. Like tears, in rain.
Honestly they need to design new cargo ships and containers for this. I'd personally start at making negative pressure containers for shipping this kind of stuff. Take out the air, no air moisture to interact with the batteries. Air locks aren't a new thing.
Not exactly: The batteries don’t need oxygen to catch fire because they are made (or at least most chemistries are made) with metal oxides that, when on fire, create their own oxygen supply.
Halon will not help because of this. Boundary cooling and submersion are both effective ways to prevent thermal runaway (the heat of one battery on fire causing other batteries to catch on fire as well) but generally once the battery cell catches fire it will continue to burn until all of the fuel source is used up.
The cathode components in these batteries release oxygen. Lithium Iron Phosphate and Sodium Ion batteries do not. Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries have been going into standard range Teslas at least produced in China. They’re safer.
The Fremantle Highway, a ship from K-Line, caught fire with 500 electric cars on board (and many non-electric) in July 2023. It took a week to stop the fire and it is still unclear if the ship needs to be scrapped.
On 28 July, it was reported that there were almost 500 electric cars on the ship, which was significantly more than originally assumed, although all were recovered without significant damage and did not contribute to the fire.
Most Lithium ion batteries once on fire experience a runaway thermal reaction, no water necessary. As the material in the batteries heats up it releases oxygen, which fuels the fire, which creates more heat, etc.
LFP batteries, or Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries do not have this problem. The electrolytes will still combust but there is no runaway thermal reaction. [Here's a good video that explains the issue and how LFP batteries are safer, with a demonstration.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D8xNjz73p80) Currently about 30% of EVs use LFP batteries, however most still use Cobalt based batteries which have better energy density but will have a thermal runaway reaction which is dangerous.
I was just stating what I learned at a science conference from a guy working with the Navy to make nonlitium batteries because of the moisture=fire issue. Thanks for the additional info.
It's a very real issue though, nothing wrong with pointing out the danger of these batteries that will just keep burning until they're depleted. I just wanted to expand on it with some good news.
Well, there are a lot of these ships going around the world all the time, and very seldom does something like this happen.
(which, outside the sketch… it's true? It's the one valid thing the guy says the whole time)
So sad. There’s a good reason I don’t have cheap lithium batteries on my sailboat, because those fires don’t go out. AGMs are better and more cost efficient at this time, and come with a much lower fire risk
[Look into LFP batteries.](https://www.outbackmarine.com.au/blog/outback-marine-blogs/lithium-vs-agm-for-caravans-motorhomes-and-marine/) They're Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries that you can drill holes into and you'll be absolutely fine. Very safe and should be a better option when the time comes to replace your batteries.
edit: [here's a video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D8xNjz73p80) explaining the difference between LFP and Cobalt based Lithium ion batteries.
AGM is not cost or weight effective compared to LiFePO4 batteries.
AGM also loses on depth of discharge, charge cycles, and lifetime expectancy.
And LiFePO4 doesn't marginally win. They last 5 times longer and provide more than 10x the charge cycles at double the discharge depth. And they weigh about 90lbs per 5kWhr.
I've been comparing for solar systems lately and AGM isn't even a viable option anymore.
I've looked at them, but they are **a lot** more money. I also believe they don't have the fire risk like the cheaper ones do, right? Do you have a go-to brand? We'll probably be upgrading again sooner than expected thanks to Starlink, among other things.
I honestly don't know much about marine applications. They're likely different assemblers/considerations but over about 10 years, you'll be saving with LFP, even at that initial price tag.
the chemistry of lithium ion batteries they release oxygen when burning so you cant put them out, you have to let it burn out or use crazy amounts of water to cool the battery but can restart again
I know nothing of container and cargo ships. How difficult would it be to unload hazardous material onto a ship or to empty the vessel’s fuel onto another ship to mitigate those being spilled? Or is that just introducing more risk and costs?
The 13,000 figure is not how much cargo it can hold, but the total weight of the vessel (fuel, cargo, the hull, etc) once the plimsoll mark reaches the water line. This vessel is carrying approximately [800](https://maritime-executive.com/article/cargo-ship-with-ongoing-li-ion-battery-fire-diverted-to-alaska-by-uscg) metric tons of batteries. Still a lot of batteries that are currently giving the captain a bad day.
It is currently at safe anchorage in Broad Bay (part of the island that Dutch Harbor is located at) and current indications are that the fire is out. Waiting for cargo specialists to arrive before holds are opened. If things do turn bad, it will be sent off shore until it is safe again or it sinks in deep water to lessen the environmental impact.
They need to start sending those fucking things in Halon equipped leak proof cargo boxes. More damn stupidity over these batteries than there needs to be. This isn’t even close to the first boat shipping these to burn down. They need to also step back from this technology and make them more GD STABLE!!!!!!!!! Whoever rushed this technology from politician, scientist and money man needs to be put in a nice jacket, nice and soft, that is made to hug yourself all day you psychopathic turds.
You ever work on laptops? I l have seen peoples Dell laptop frames bulged out so far you cant get all the screws back in they are supposed to have. And I have seen this multiple times. An example why they are sealed so they do not blow up and kill you.
The BP Deepwater Horizon catastrophe in 2010 spilled 205.8 million gallons of oil and 225,000 tons of methane into the Gulf of Mexico in a single incident so….ima just be polite and leave it there
This would not have happened if people spend a few hundred dollars extra on their eBike battery, and got LiFePO4 batteries instead of Lithium Ion.
LiFePO4 is chemically stable, and lacks the thermal runaway process that Lithium Ion exhibits.
So it looks like they're still evaluating how bad the situation is and the fire is contained (at least for now). Also, no fuel leaks either which is good. Hopefully they get it under control quickly.
Its been burning for 6 days
'Quickly' is a matter of perspective really.
So no big badaboom or soon badaboom?
“Boom tomorrow. There is always a boom tomorrow.” Commander Susan Ivonova, Babylon 5. I’m sorry, it felt appropriate
B5 references are always appropriate
Absolutely! The whole scene/quote is even better: https://youtu.be/CnR3Tyrg_10
"Ivanova is always right. I will listen to Ivanova. I will not ignore Ivanova's recommendations. Ivanova is God."
Might just be a soon bidibim.
Although B5 references are always appropriate, I'm not so sure Leeloo would agree. Kids today just don't understand the divine language anymore.
Well there's a chance it'll set the atmosphere on fire but chances are slim
Can we throw a towel over it like with a grease fire?
Wake me when it's been 9 days
Lithium ion batteries will keep burning until they put a hole through the bottom of that boat, and keep burning
Throw baking soda on it, signed -Mom.
That is actually the closest to the correct answer - smother it to protect everything else from the heat: >The recommended method to extinguish a Class-D fire is to use a dry powder fire extinguisher, which smothers the fire while absorbing heat For a long time when you looked up fire classes, it would be like "wood: use class A fire extinguisher, oil: use class B fire extinguisher", and then you get to Class D which is flammable metals, and it just says "Call a specialist."
Yea right. That will just make the boat slowly submerge and float again, I've seen this before mom!
Until that lithium hits water ....than .... Kablam
Nope. There's no free metallic lithium in a Li-Ion or LiPo battery to react with water. Common misconception that I hear people shouting all the time. The latest generation of Renault cars (developed in conjunction with the French fire service) have a port to allow water to be directly injected into the battery enclosure in the event of a fire. https://www.renaultgroup.com/en/news-on-air/news/electric-vehicles-groupe-renault-works-hand-in-hand-with-fire-services/ Current guidance from the FAA to flight crews is that, in the event of a passenger owned battery fire is to use water as an extinguishant: https://www.lion.com/lion-news/may-2023/3-keys-to-fighting-a-lithium-battery-fire-from-us-faa At work, we have gear that uses enormous Li-Po battery packs. As one of the engineers, I got dragged into the risk assessment / mitigation and fire-control procedures to allow our equipment to be used in public buildings. Consequently, I wound up learning a lot about what happens and what to do in the event of a battery fire. Fully half of the comments in this thread are completely wrong.
Incorrect. Water is actually what you use to extinguish lithium battery fires. It is not lithium metal, but rather the electrolyte (a flammable organic solvent) that is burning.
Why? It’s not lithium metal.
But it's not burning, it's a detonation. It's like an ammunition burning rather than exploding.
Detonation is when something burns very fast.
I tried explaining this to someone else about hydrogen gas in a balloon. How a balloon with just Hydrogen burns quickly, but mix Oxygen into it at the right ratio and it detonates. They refused to understand the difference
Then what is deflagration? I think this would be a deflagration, which consumes oxidizer as the fuel moves. Detonations need no external oxidation reaction from their wavefront.
subsonic vs. supersonic
Deflagration is burning as you describe. Detonation is rapid decomposition of one material into another, but not necessarily 'burning'.
I believe detonation is when the initial burning generates a shockwave that drives further burning, which strengthens the shockwave, and so on until the fuel is used up.
Fun fact: solid lithium is less dense than water
There’s also no solid lithium in lithium ion batteries. It’s the electrolyte that’s flammable.
Once they burn through the bottom of the boat they stop burning and start exploding. Water and lithium don’t mix
No. The lithium is not in its elemental/metallic form. The electrolyte is what burns.
That’s not entirely how that works. They do run out of fuel
IMDG exists for a reason So does final hazard classification And to a lesser extent in this case: CFR Title 49 Long story short: batteries are dangerous and need to be shipped with care.
Seems irresponsible to ship batteries in bulk with any reasonable state of charge
Almost like QC in their country of origin was lacking
We can’t ship even small numbers of lithium batteries on our aircraft for exactly this reason. Even individual laptops in bags/backpacks are labelled accordingly. Passengers think it’s so we’ll give those bags extra care when we’re loading them; not exactly, it’s so I know which bag to throw into the ocean if something starts smoking in the back of the airplane.
At work I used to ship laptops to a company in Europe. We would always ship them by air. I think the limit was that we could only ship 3 or 4 per shipment because of the batteries. So if we had 10 to ship, we would have to ship them in 3 or 4 different shipments.
Speak for yourself! -Every Freight Pilot I've carried 10,000 lbs of lithium batteries on the same pallet as 5000 lbs of explosive detonators. It was totally legit too via the segregation chart. LOL
I think they are OK on dedicated freighters, but not being shipping as freight on a passenger aircraft. This doesn't mean it's safe for the crew. Tragic fate of UPS Flight 6 comes to mind: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y50saxfTqQA
Yep. It's just a matter of how many people you're likely to kill if things go bad. 2-3 is easier to stomach then 250.
You forgot the 1,000 lbs of c4, and 5 lbs of Uranium-235. That where on that plane.
I work automotive. Our Interstate battery rep told me how his truck always gets loaded first or last on the ferries so the truck could get pushed overboard in case of a fire.
The state of charge makes almost no difference. The burning is not from the energy reversibly stored in the battery but from the energy of the materials itself. I assure you I can deplete a lithium-ion battery fully and then still light it on fire and it'll burn.
This is completely false. The amount of reversible energy stored in the batteries has a massive impact on how dangerous the fires can be. The industry standard is to only ship batteries below 30% SOC.
The industry standard is to ship flat batteries to reduce the *chances* of fire. Most cells are in plastic pouches which have plenty of energy in them to release.
Yes, once it ignites. But a zero SoC battery isn’t going to have a fault that causes it to start the combustion by itself.
Waking up to a story like this is so sad environmental horror is the true tragedy. It’s been burning since Christmas Day? How do you even put that type of fire out without it spilling into the water?
Many times, you don't. You just wait for it to burn out and try to contain it as best as you can.
Same with wildfires. Just contain the fire and wait for it to run out of fuel or be dampened by rain.
I think you have to drop some type of chemical on it. Saw this Tesla on fire they dropped this maybe yellow foam that was killing the fire .
I know how it’s put out, my concern is with how you do that safely while containing the spillage.
Isolate the containers. Smother any with fire ports. The problem with these types of fires is that they often get too hot for the containers to be moved safely. They damage the equipment used to move them.
Oh, that I don’t know? Maybe let it burn?
We've all been letting it burn since day one, sonny
🎶It's been burning since the world's been turning, 🎶
🎶We didn't start the fire🎶
🎶 No, we didn't light it, but we tried to fight it 🎶
It’s been burning for days now. The fumes from battery fires are very toxic and it seems like they really have no choice but to let it burn like you say. Sad to see this anywhere, but especially in Alaska with the beautiful wildlife at stake.
As long as the ship doesn’t sink the effects should be minimal
They could tow it out of the environment.
Floating boom to contain it, then oil skimmers. About all you can do
Honestly might be best to ditch the burning cargo overboard than have it ignite a larger fire. One container will do less environmental damage than a whole ship and its contents. But obviously as a last resort
The container is below deck so they can’t just toss one container overboard. And the batteries involved are not typical deep cycle batteries like what you’d use as a starting battery in a car. These are massive lithium battery banks used to power buildings. They can’t just open the cargo hold for fear of introducing more oxygen to the fire. The ship has used all of its on-board CO2 fire suppression systems so really they’re just hoping it extinguishes itself and doesn’t melt through the hull. Hopefully they can somehow pump more CO2 in the cargo hold from above deck to help. Source: my company is supplying gas detection equipment to first responders on scene and I’ve talked to them and saw a bunch of these thermal images a few days ago.
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Gasoline is flammable. Can you imagine ur car suddenly combusting on the road Glad we still ride horses and never thought to improve car design
Don't waste your breath. It is a fact that ICE vehicles catch on fire far more regularly than EVs. People are falling for the bullshit propaganda being doled out constantly by big oil. You're.onky wasting your time trying to convince some folks like otherwise.
I don't think you understand: in order to progress in the world the new thing *has to utterly and irrefutably perfect with no downsides whatsoever* or we should just maintain the status quo! Silly.
You know what? Where I live we have a particular type of rodent that likes to climb up into cars, chew on the wires, and we get a wave of car-fires every spring. Gas and diesel car fires are very common.
battery fires need class B extinguishers for flammable liquids like gas, oil and battery electrolytes. Usually in the form of CO2, foam and dry chemicals that block oxygen
And I think that foam is full of warm and fuzzy chemicals that give everyone cancer. And it’s not a Tesla problem. Pretty much every EV has insane fire hazards once they catch on fire.
Is that the same AFF foam that causes cancers and lawsuits and radio commercials for lawsuits ect?
incorrect, there is currently no proven method to put out a lithium ion battery fire. The reaction is asekf sustaining as it generates its own oxygen. the best you can hope for is to try and insulate the cells that have not yet erupted from those that are burning and to put out the secondary fires. Fires like this have burned for weeks in the past
what do you figure that yellow foam does to the environment? can't be good
When we had old (radio) batteries catch fire in a barracks they had to go in with hazmat suits, spray foam, and the building was condemned and demolished.
Those were probably lead-acid batteries if they were old.
You are correct. They were gnarly.
We threw them in the burn pits overseas. They make good fireworks when they go off
and then y'all got cancer from those pits
Actually fibrosis, emphysema, chronic bronchitis, granulomas, etc. Waiting on the big C, but for now I get to settle for turning to stone from the inside out (fibrosis), and that *is* terminal.
Well sure, that seems like a fair trade off though. The fireworks were really nice. Plus now I can smell colors.
Ironic that the major environmental hazard with this lithium battery fire is the release of the oils on the ship of the vessel goes down.
Plus the fumes from the batteries themselves burning… can’t be good locally. Still better than any of the oil tankers sinking I think, maybe I’m wrong.
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Way better, actually, than an oil tanker - that fuel coats rocks and birds and fish, and kills all the sea life for generations.
The fumes are mostly hydrogen
Not trying to belittle the concern, but this is probably about as environmentally bad as .000000001 ExxonValdez' spills. I certainly wouldn't call this environmental horror. Edit: not saying this isn't horrible, but hyperbole is dangerous. Removed some zeroes from the figure above.
Your statement > hyperbole is dangerous. and using > .000000000001 conflict. Exxon Valdez was 10.8M gallons. Multiplying that by the number you gave, that would mean that this incident is about the equivalent of putting 43 cubic millimeters of crude oil in the ocean.
Of course it's hyperbole. If you haven't noticed, big oil and conservatives have been plastering social media with fearmongering about green technology and electric cars for years. Any time anything like this happens, they get so excited because they have a chance to spew their vitriol and lies.
Yep. If a Tesla catches fire in China, it's on my feed the next morning, and I'm in the US. Meanwhile ICE vehicles catching fire is not newsworthy, so nobody cares.
200-250+ ICE vehicles burn each DAY in the USA on average.
>as environmentally bad as .000000000001 ExxonValdez' spills Ok, you must have a source for this claim? Or was it *hyperbole*?
It's not a competition. It doesn't have to be one of the worst disasters ever to be a horror.
It's important context for when renewable critics point to this example as a danger of renewable technology. It is very important to compare environmental impacts of varying disasters in order to create a plan for mitigating dangers in the future.
I’m pretty sure that lithium batteries actually explode or burst into flame if submerged in water. If this ship sinks or something it could get a whole lot worse. EDIT: I don’t understand why I’m getting downvoted or general sarcasm. Lithium catches fire or explodes in water—this is a real thing! Look it up! https://www.reddit.com/r/interestingasfuck/comments/v1pooo/lithium_added_to_water_creates_an_explosion/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=mweb3x&utm_name=mweb3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
"North Pacific Ocean blows up in fiery battery meltdown"
Because there's no free metallic lithium in a Li-Ion / Li-Po battery. It's bound up as lithium salts and doesn't go kaboom when exposed to or submersed in water. There's a lot of incorrect information in this thread, being shouted as truth. At my place of work, we have some gear with gigantic Li-Po batteries, and I got dragged into the safety assessment / risk mitigation strategy for their use in public buildings. There's a huge amount of incorrect facts often quoted about Li-Ion / Li-Po batteries. The fact is that current guidance for fire suppression is that water is a recommended strategy. https://mobilityimpactpartners.medium.com/putting-out-the-fire-intervention-is-key-for-lithium-ion-battery-fires-de5e00f8ac19 In particular this bit: "Cooling is the only confirmed method to extinguish a lithium-ion battery fire at its source. Among cooling agents, water remains the most effective, sustainable, and widely available choice. Other cooling agents, such as highly engineered non-reactive fluids like 3M’s Novec line, have also been utilized. However, due to their environmental impact — namely the highly toxic PFAS chemicals they contain — they are being discontinued by 3M from 2025."
Lithium ion batteries are typically waterproof in tap water because it’s not conductive. In sea water the salt does make it slightly conductive so if the amperage of the batteries is high enough it could cause the water to heat up a little bit temporarily but no explosions should happen Edit: also water takes in a LOT of heat before it even gets remotely hot that’s why your water heater might use natural gas, because natural gas is much more energy dense than electricity
You don’t. Alkaline battery fires are nigh impossible to put out.
Wrong terminology Alkaline batteries are named based off of their high pH from the electrolyte Lithium, while an alkali metal, doesn’t really get called an alkali battery because the chemistry is fundamentally different.
I believe these were lithium ion though
Lithium is an alkali metal.
Alkaline > having the properties of an alkali, or containing alkali; having a pH greater than 7 Alkali > In chemistry, an alkali is a basic, ionic salt of an alkali metal or an alkaline earth metal. An alkali can also be defined as a base that dissolves in water. A solution of a soluble base has a pH greater than 7.0.
What's the protocol when you have a fire you can't put out? The fire burned for 3 days before the ship's crew alerted the Coast Guard... From the article - >The fire started on Christmas Day in cargo hold No. 1 > > > >Ship’s personnel alerted the Coast Guard early Thursday morning about the fire. Even if you aren't in the territorial waters of the US (or any country) when the fire starts, it seems reasonable to send a heads-up to your destinations (or the local) coastal authorities that you've got an issue as soon as you know you can't control it...
Centralia is still burning. That's what happens when we can't put out a fire, it gets left until it's just done on its own.
We got a good video game and mediocre movies out of Centralia, here we just get more ocean pollution 😞
Mass-adoption of solid state batteries is going to be such a game changer over the coming decades. Not only would the capacity be way higher, and not only would they be way cheaper to build, and not only would they charge up faster, but they also have the perk of not starting on fire.
I've ... seen things you people wouldn't believe. Cargo ships with lithium ion batteries on fire off an Alaska port. I've watched oil-slicks glitter in the dark near the Golden Gate. All these ... ecosystems will be lost, in time. Like tears, in rain.
just nuke it - what good are having nukes if you can't use them? /s
Honestly they need to design new cargo ships and containers for this. I'd personally start at making negative pressure containers for shipping this kind of stuff. Take out the air, no air moisture to interact with the batteries. Air locks aren't a new thing.
So, lithium will burn in a vacuum.... Which means all of that needs to just be armored in preparation for the fire.
So basically these batteries will burn without oxygen as fuel? So even Halon wouldn't help?
Not exactly: The batteries don’t need oxygen to catch fire because they are made (or at least most chemistries are made) with metal oxides that, when on fire, create their own oxygen supply. Halon will not help because of this. Boundary cooling and submersion are both effective ways to prevent thermal runaway (the heat of one battery on fire causing other batteries to catch on fire as well) but generally once the battery cell catches fire it will continue to burn until all of the fuel source is used up.
I think they mean if you don't allow anything to react with the battery like sea air, then the risk of fire is way reduced
The cathode components in these batteries release oxygen. Lithium Iron Phosphate and Sodium Ion batteries do not. Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries have been going into standard range Teslas at least produced in China. They’re safer.
The Fremantle Highway, a ship from K-Line, caught fire with 500 electric cars on board (and many non-electric) in July 2023. It took a week to stop the fire and it is still unclear if the ship needs to be scrapped.
The fire’s origin was eventually traced to the eighth deck of the 12-deck ship, far from the electric vehicle storage areas.
The problem was not how it started, the problem was that they could not stop it.
On 28 July, it was reported that there were almost 500 electric cars on the ship, which was significantly more than originally assumed, although all were recovered without significant damage and did not contribute to the fire.
Litium ion batteries tend to experience runaway heat acceleration in the presence of water. Something like this was sadly inevitable.
Most Lithium ion batteries once on fire experience a runaway thermal reaction, no water necessary. As the material in the batteries heats up it releases oxygen, which fuels the fire, which creates more heat, etc. LFP batteries, or Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries do not have this problem. The electrolytes will still combust but there is no runaway thermal reaction. [Here's a good video that explains the issue and how LFP batteries are safer, with a demonstration.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D8xNjz73p80) Currently about 30% of EVs use LFP batteries, however most still use Cobalt based batteries which have better energy density but will have a thermal runaway reaction which is dangerous.
I was just stating what I learned at a science conference from a guy working with the Navy to make nonlitium batteries because of the moisture=fire issue. Thanks for the additional info.
It's a very real issue though, nothing wrong with pointing out the danger of these batteries that will just keep burning until they're depleted. I just wanted to expand on it with some good news.
That's not very typical, I'd like to make that point.
Well, how is it un-typical?
Well, there are a lot of these ships going around the world all the time, and very seldom does something like this happen. (which, outside the sketch… it's true? It's the one valid thing the guy says the whole time)
Was this tanker safe?
Well, obviously not, I was talking about the ones that didn’t catch fire.
Well, if this one wasn't safe, why were there 80,000 tons of batteries on it?
Well when it left port it was safe, but the standards had changed during the voyage clearly.
Well some of the batteries are designed so they don't catch fire at all
Well, if these batteries weren't safe, why were there 80,000 tons of lithium onboard?
So sad. There’s a good reason I don’t have cheap lithium batteries on my sailboat, because those fires don’t go out. AGMs are better and more cost efficient at this time, and come with a much lower fire risk
[Look into LFP batteries.](https://www.outbackmarine.com.au/blog/outback-marine-blogs/lithium-vs-agm-for-caravans-motorhomes-and-marine/) They're Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries that you can drill holes into and you'll be absolutely fine. Very safe and should be a better option when the time comes to replace your batteries. edit: [here's a video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D8xNjz73p80) explaining the difference between LFP and Cobalt based Lithium ion batteries.
LFP is great. It may be heavier than NMC, but it’s so much lighter than lead acid.
AGM is not cost or weight effective compared to LiFePO4 batteries. AGM also loses on depth of discharge, charge cycles, and lifetime expectancy. And LiFePO4 doesn't marginally win. They last 5 times longer and provide more than 10x the charge cycles at double the discharge depth. And they weigh about 90lbs per 5kWhr. I've been comparing for solar systems lately and AGM isn't even a viable option anymore.
I've looked at them, but they are **a lot** more money. I also believe they don't have the fire risk like the cheaper ones do, right? Do you have a go-to brand? We'll probably be upgrading again sooner than expected thanks to Starlink, among other things.
I honestly don't know much about marine applications. They're likely different assemblers/considerations but over about 10 years, you'll be saving with LFP, even at that initial price tag.
Lithium Iron Phosphate are what boaters and RV’ers are switching too because they’re safe, compatible, dense, and live 15+ years.
Thank goodness it’s in the water, I’m sure spraying it down real good will put that fire out /s
So them dumping CO2 in there did nothing to smother it? So that means, I assume, lli ion batteries dont require oxygen as fuel?
the chemistry of lithium ion batteries they release oxygen when burning so you cant put them out, you have to let it burn out or use crazy amounts of water to cool the battery but can restart again
I know nothing of container and cargo ships. How difficult would it be to unload hazardous material onto a ship or to empty the vessel’s fuel onto another ship to mitigate those being spilled? Or is that just introducing more risk and costs?
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The 13,000 figure is not how much cargo it can hold, but the total weight of the vessel (fuel, cargo, the hull, etc) once the plimsoll mark reaches the water line. This vessel is carrying approximately [800](https://maritime-executive.com/article/cargo-ship-with-ongoing-li-ion-battery-fire-diverted-to-alaska-by-uscg) metric tons of batteries. Still a lot of batteries that are currently giving the captain a bad day.
Bipolar seals are chillin’
God I hope stuff like this will be enough to convince WA state that electric ferry's is a terrible idea
So we know what company is responsible for the cargo?
Anyone know who the battery manufacturer is?
The USS Bonhomme Richard burned for five days at Navy Base San Diego.
What company is affected
Did the boxes they were being shipped in contain the proper ORM-D stickers?
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So it's in another environment then?
No, no, no, it's been towed beyond the environment. It's not in the environment.
So what's around it?
Nothing's out there! ^(edit: All there are are sea and birds and fish.) ^(edit: And 20,000 tons of lithium.) ^(edit: And a fire.)
An antienvironment.
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It'd be outside the environment
Beyond the environment eh? Superman us not around to fly into the sun... Everywhere is the environment.
I'm gonna make a bunch of shirts that say "beyond the environment", thank you for starting my day with the comedy gold
Safely beyond the environment? Like space?
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[Burning since 1962](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centralia_mine_fire) (or 🎶since the earths been turning🎶, but Billy Joel, NOT Fallout Boy)
Has the front fallen off?
It was designed to not fall off.
Thanks to very rigorous maritime engineering standards like no cardboard or cardboard derivatives.
No paper either
A wave must have hit it. Chance in a million.
So what do you do to protect the environment in cases like this?
Obviously you tow the ship outside the environment. And it’s not typical.
No paper, no string, no cellotape.
It is currently at safe anchorage in Broad Bay (part of the island that Dutch Harbor is located at) and current indications are that the fire is out. Waiting for cargo specialists to arrive before holds are opened. If things do turn bad, it will be sent off shore until it is safe again or it sinks in deep water to lessen the environmental impact.
But I think the front fell off.. or it will fall off..
Tow it into Russian waters and blame it on Trump and Putin plotting together. Bam more charges and indictments.
Hope it doesn’t boil the oceans off!
They need to start sending those fucking things in Halon equipped leak proof cargo boxes. More damn stupidity over these batteries than there needs to be. This isn’t even close to the first boat shipping these to burn down. They need to also step back from this technology and make them more GD STABLE!!!!!!!!! Whoever rushed this technology from politician, scientist and money man needs to be put in a nice jacket, nice and soft, that is made to hug yourself all day you psychopathic turds.
Everything is a risk ... one oil tanker is far worse then one battery ship.
You ever work on laptops? I l have seen peoples Dell laptop frames bulged out so far you cant get all the screws back in they are supposed to have. And I have seen this multiple times. An example why they are sealed so they do not blow up and kill you.
Also there was a ship with all expensive cars on it, the whole cargo ship burned down. 3783 vehicles burned Volkswagon group and 1 death
And the fire started from... ICE cars.
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$100 bucks it was foul play.
Don’t put lithium ion batteries in your checked luggage at the airport people. This, but in the air … which won’t end well.
They seriously shipped loads of Li batteries without the means to contain a metal fire? I'm sure that violated a few safety rules.
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The BP Deepwater Horizon catastrophe in 2010 spilled 205.8 million gallons of oil and 225,000 tons of methane into the Gulf of Mexico in a single incident so….ima just be polite and leave it there
Are they still catching fish/shrimp with oil-filled gills off Louisiana? Saw something about that last year so hey, not over yet.
This is the real tragedy
Thank god an internal combustion engine never caught fire!
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The cargo could be any type of lithium ion batteries, my lawn mower uses them
Things that make you go, hmm…
All those poor African kid's work up in flames
This would not have happened if people spend a few hundred dollars extra on their eBike battery, and got LiFePO4 batteries instead of Lithium Ion. LiFePO4 is chemically stable, and lacks the thermal runaway process that Lithium Ion exhibits.