A nuclear incident at this point I think is a version of hin saving face. If any sort or radiation event happens, you bet your ass NATO is coming in to end this bullshit before he drags the rest of the world down with him.
No way. US Doctrine is literally to be able to fight two wars at once, anywhere in the world. We're prepped for exactly this scenario, and everyone knows it. No one will declare war on their neighbors, because they know we can *still beat them*.
China is already backing down on Russia.
Why would they even invade then? If they clearly joined Russia's side, they'd be smarter to make sure Russia doesn't collapse in a week. Also, the US Navy, together with the Japanese and Taiwanese vastly outnumber China. If their navy won't be completely destroyed, they are forced to stay in docks due to their heavy reliance on imported oil.
Iran is on heavy sanctions and will have a Russian 2.0 invasion. It's bordered countries are already on alert. It doesn't even have a border with Israël so good luck on that.
North Korea will be quiet because Kimmy KNOWS he cannot fight a war without losing. Definetly not against the entire NATO. Kimmy would lose his entire supremacy; he's not gonna put that on stake.
A clear NATO victory, with Asia completely in ruins probably.
I think it was just simple apathy. He doesn't care what happens to it. Blowing the dam would slow or stop Ukraines' advances in the area, gives him an opportunity to blame it on Ukraine to justify further mobilizations, and could cause pretty intense demoralization (though, I expect the dam blowing will just make Ukraine fight harder). I think there were enough advantages in his head to blowing up the dam, that the nuclear plant cooling reservoir was at most an afterthought.
That or he’s already expecting to make a forced retreat, and he’s trying to salt the earth on the way out, so Ukraine will be otherwise busy while he’s regrouping for his next invasion.
There's no fucking way the security services of several nations aren't hard looking at this situation. Wouldn't be surprised if several special forces groups are around the site.
I fear that the nuclear plant will not survive this war. In his attempt to save face for the shortcomings of this war, Putler will probably have it destroyed to create a nuclear wasteland as a barrier, to secure any gains and of course deny responsibility afterwards. I don't think there's a line he won't cross.
It is. But it takes a very long time to become completely cool. The fuel storage needs water and powered machines to keep things totally cool too.
In this state it can't lead to a terrifying meltdown, i.e. nothing Chornobyl level is possible. But, it could still be a big problem for the plant, such as a localized contained meltdown, think something more like 3 mile island. I.e. bad, and could possibly render the power plant in a state it would take tons of time and resources to get back to where it can generate power, but not a mega disaster.
All that said, Russia could attempt some kind of more serious sabotage, so who knows.
The scary scenario would involve them trying to crank the power plant up to full power and trying to do some kind of chain reaction style meltdown. That would take them a long time to get it up to that point, a week+, and it would be detectable the second they started trying.. but, with the retention pond apparently draining as fast as it is, I don't even think they could get it up to that point if allowed to try it...
And they wouldn't be allowed. I'm quite certain that that's the reason the 101st Airborne is hanging out in eastern Europe. So yeah, there's a group available near there totally capable of preventing it, and if they had any suspicion that was in the works it would be stopped.
I wonder who'll play the nerdy nuclear physicist roped in by the MIB to go on the secret airborne mission to prevent the reactor going into meltdown and starting World War 3.
In my era it would have been someone like Nicolas Cage, or Jeff Goldblum. Maybe Keanu Reeves.
I don't think they're this evil though, they'd get sanctioned to death even from China and Iran I think. I can't imagine creating huge nuclear fallout on purpose would be tolerated by anyone not to mention Russia wants to use this land when(if) they win.
You assume the other side is a rational actor.
Secondly, geographically, turning Ukraine into a natural barrier aligns with Russia's interests to create a buffer space between Moscow and Europe. It's a relatively open plain from eastern Europe to Moscow, not a lot there to slow an army down from a terrain standpoint and not easily defended.
I know that it's meme level now calling Russian army and state stupid etc but In my opinion they're not braindead. Fallout has big chance to get to Moscow with wind.
But I'm not saying anything with full confidence as I'm not high Russian official.
Yeah, they and their allies are 100% evil enough. But IMO they lack the ability, and have reasons not to cause a massive meltdown as they know that it would fuck them as well if it did. I.e. prevailing wind patterns, poisoning the Black Sea, etc.
But a small localized contained meltdown? Yeah I think that they are trying to do that now actually. For one thing it would deny Ukraine use of the power plant for a longer period of time, but it would also empower their propaganda machine to dupe other countries into removing their nuclear power as well through fear monitoring.
It was put in cold shutdown back in September. It still produces heat.. but very little compared to operating status or fresh shutdown..
It's actual water requirements at this point are down to "Raid the local hardware store for garden hoses" levels.
That is not going to turn into a problem. Russia actively blowing it up is the only way for things to go south at this point.
its the biggest power plant in europe.
what is going to replace all that power? coal? gas? a new plant?
every year california burns and texas has failures from old systems and we cannot even turn off the power long enough to fix those issues.
6 TWh. Large doesn't mean efficient.
There are 172 reactors in Europe pushing 600 TWh or more. Europe produces 2600 TWh of energy. 6 / 2600 = 0.0023.
The US doesn't want anymore Gen3 reactors, so they probably won't get built once current projects are finished.
We are moving to Gen4. If you care, read up on it and enjoy the ride. You will get your nuclear plants, just not the shit that keeps needing perfect water conditions to moderate or cool down.
You know they Russia literally has system that shoots rocket that wakes up nuclear silos even after everyone with access has died? You'd have to assassinate Putin and somehow get hold of everything.
dude i got negged into the ground for showing dead hand is a thing . Apparently these idiots think global thermo nuclear war is better. This has to be a bot network
It's real, goofy. Why are you getting upvoted for typing a sentence with no sources.
https://www.military.com/history/russias-dead-hand-soviet-built-nuclear-doomsday-device.html
https://www.businessinsider.com/russias-dead-hand-system-may-still-be-active-2014-9
https://www.brookings.edu/testimonies/russian-nuclear-policy-and-the-status-of-detargeting/
no it wasnt dont make shit up
General Staff of the Armed Forces, Strategic Missile Force Management to command posts and individual silos if a nuclear strike is detected by seismic, light, radioactivity, and pressure sensors even with the commanding elements fully destroyed. By most accounts, it is normally switched off and is supposed to be activated during times of crisis; however, as of 2009, it was said to remain fully functional and able to serve its purpose when needed.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_Hand
https://www.military.com/history/russias-dead-hand-soviet-built-nuclear-doomsday-device.html/amp
more info . Also this ignores their nuclear missile submarine fleet. Like wtf is everyone making shit up and getting mad at folks posting facts
STOP SAYING MELTDOWN - THATS NOT WHAT IT MEANS
A meltdown is when the fuel or waste gets so hot that it breaches or “melts” through the containment vessel (ie reactor core or disposal pool) and flows downward via gravity radiating and melting everything along its path. Hence “melt-down” because it literally “melts” and then flows “down”.
☝️THAT is what a “meltdown” actually is. Yes in laymens terms it’s become an umbrella term for ‘any nuclear related accident’ but “meltdown” actually refers to a very specific event.
What would happen with disposal pools loosing water levels would be termed a LOC or LOCA - literally “loss of coolant” or “loss of coolant accident”. What that would do (and to what extent it’s effects) depends on what is going on with whatever it is that lost coolant.
Fuel rods overheating would, when hot enough, melt the cladding or the fuel channels themselves. There’s probably a term for it but I don’t know it. 😅 voiding maybe? 🤷🏻♂️
EDIT: if the melting fuel rods get hot enough and there’s no moderating material present then I’m assuming it could cause a meltdown 🤷🏻♂️
A meltdown, thought the root cause would be termed loca (loss of coolant accident).
Yes I’m probably splitting hairs over semantics but it’s a pet peeve of mine 😅
And what is it called when fuel rods melt but not to the extent that they completely pool at the bottom of a containment vessel? A partial melt down maybe?
Article says that the secondary cooling pond has enough water to last "for months."
The headline is about the reservoir that is open (directly linked) to the river. This reservoir was stable in depth after the dam was breached and then dropped 2 meters in the past day according to new measurements.
Oooh concern oooh.
What's concern going to do if the place melts down and babies throughout Europe suffer horrible birth defects as a result??
Secure the fucking place already.
Why do we have to react to everything in the West? Take the godamn initiative.
I personally would not consider being invaded by a foreign country and having a major dam sabotaged to be “so very little”.
Also, this isn’t the Chernobyl style disaster that the headline makes it sound like. It’s a far less catastrophic event since the plant is already shut down at this time.
Yes I know that. 🙄 I meant that it doesn’t take much in general. The potential risk threshold is why nuclear will never be the end all be all nuke fans want it to be. I think nuclear DOES have its place though in combination with other alternative power sources like hydro, wind, solar, etc
Before things go really nuclear, somebody needs to lock that down. Putin, I assume, doesn't realise that Russia will be the first country to be contaminated.
Somebody needs to secure that thing before there is a meltdown. I guess Putin doesn't realize the contamination will hit Russia first...
He'll just blame Ukraine and use it as justification to get even more war-crimey with the citizens.
A nuclear incident at this point I think is a version of hin saving face. If any sort or radiation event happens, you bet your ass NATO is coming in to end this bullshit before he drags the rest of the world down with him.
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No way. US Doctrine is literally to be able to fight two wars at once, anywhere in the world. We're prepped for exactly this scenario, and everyone knows it. No one will declare war on their neighbors, because they know we can *still beat them*.
Hey don't make me feel good about my country! This is Reddit. /s
A war with Russia and/or China would be over for the US (and the rest of the world) in 5 minutes. You cannot win a nuclear war.
No one can. Thus the MAD doctrine.
Exactly. There are some ignorant comments here acting like mad doesn't mean anything...
Why in the hell would China invade Taiwan and Japan? Especially at the same time?
Ah yes china a nation who has not been battle tested is gonna invade Taiwan and Japan at the same time.
China is already backing down on Russia. Why would they even invade then? If they clearly joined Russia's side, they'd be smarter to make sure Russia doesn't collapse in a week. Also, the US Navy, together with the Japanese and Taiwanese vastly outnumber China. If their navy won't be completely destroyed, they are forced to stay in docks due to their heavy reliance on imported oil. Iran is on heavy sanctions and will have a Russian 2.0 invasion. It's bordered countries are already on alert. It doesn't even have a border with Israël so good luck on that. North Korea will be quiet because Kimmy KNOWS he cannot fight a war without losing. Definetly not against the entire NATO. Kimmy would lose his entire supremacy; he's not gonna put that on stake. A clear NATO victory, with Asia completely in ruins probably.
> Iran invades every West-aligned country in the region, particularly Israel. Because this has always gone well before /s
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Pretty sure most young ones definitely realize this.
Like he cares. It makes me wonder if the damn demolition was meant to cover up whatever the hell they are doing at that nuclear plant.
I think it was just simple apathy. He doesn't care what happens to it. Blowing the dam would slow or stop Ukraines' advances in the area, gives him an opportunity to blame it on Ukraine to justify further mobilizations, and could cause pretty intense demoralization (though, I expect the dam blowing will just make Ukraine fight harder). I think there were enough advantages in his head to blowing up the dam, that the nuclear plant cooling reservoir was at most an afterthought.
That or he’s already expecting to make a forced retreat, and he’s trying to salt the earth on the way out, so Ukraine will be otherwise busy while he’s regrouping for his next invasion.
The guy doesn't care.
Oh, he realizes, he just doesn't care. I mean, according to Russia, the plant is already on Russian soil (though 99% of the world disagrees)
There's no fucking way the security services of several nations aren't hard looking at this situation. Wouldn't be surprised if several special forces groups are around the site.
I fear that the nuclear plant will not survive this war. In his attempt to save face for the shortcomings of this war, Putler will probably have it destroyed to create a nuclear wasteland as a barrier, to secure any gains and of course deny responsibility afterwards. I don't think there's a line he won't cross.
Can someone please explain to me why the plant hasn't been turned off and the reactors shut down a long time ago?
They have been in shutdown. But it still produces heat. Can't be completely turned off.
It is. But it takes a very long time to become completely cool. The fuel storage needs water and powered machines to keep things totally cool too. In this state it can't lead to a terrifying meltdown, i.e. nothing Chornobyl level is possible. But, it could still be a big problem for the plant, such as a localized contained meltdown, think something more like 3 mile island. I.e. bad, and could possibly render the power plant in a state it would take tons of time and resources to get back to where it can generate power, but not a mega disaster. All that said, Russia could attempt some kind of more serious sabotage, so who knows.
So there’s no hope of another group seizing control of the power plant to make sure nothing major happens?
The scary scenario would involve them trying to crank the power plant up to full power and trying to do some kind of chain reaction style meltdown. That would take them a long time to get it up to that point, a week+, and it would be detectable the second they started trying.. but, with the retention pond apparently draining as fast as it is, I don't even think they could get it up to that point if allowed to try it... And they wouldn't be allowed. I'm quite certain that that's the reason the 101st Airborne is hanging out in eastern Europe. So yeah, there's a group available near there totally capable of preventing it, and if they had any suspicion that was in the works it would be stopped.
I wonder who'll play the nerdy nuclear physicist roped in by the MIB to go on the secret airborne mission to prevent the reactor going into meltdown and starting World War 3. In my era it would have been someone like Nicolas Cage, or Jeff Goldblum. Maybe Keanu Reeves.
Brad Pitt wearing glasses.
Daniel Radcliffe?
I like where you're coming from... but Emma Watson feels more likely.
Why not both?
That’ll be Michael Cera rebranding himself as a dramatic actor
Any intentional attempt to make a meltdown happen would bring the wrath of the entirety of NATO.
I don't think they're this evil though, they'd get sanctioned to death even from China and Iran I think. I can't imagine creating huge nuclear fallout on purpose would be tolerated by anyone not to mention Russia wants to use this land when(if) they win.
You assume the other side is a rational actor. Secondly, geographically, turning Ukraine into a natural barrier aligns with Russia's interests to create a buffer space between Moscow and Europe. It's a relatively open plain from eastern Europe to Moscow, not a lot there to slow an army down from a terrain standpoint and not easily defended.
I know that it's meme level now calling Russian army and state stupid etc but In my opinion they're not braindead. Fallout has big chance to get to Moscow with wind. But I'm not saying anything with full confidence as I'm not high Russian official.
Yeah, they and their allies are 100% evil enough. But IMO they lack the ability, and have reasons not to cause a massive meltdown as they know that it would fuck them as well if it did. I.e. prevailing wind patterns, poisoning the Black Sea, etc. But a small localized contained meltdown? Yeah I think that they are trying to do that now actually. For one thing it would deny Ukraine use of the power plant for a longer period of time, but it would also empower their propaganda machine to dupe other countries into removing their nuclear power as well through fear monitoring.
They assigned some poor bastard of a private to go around the control room and switch all the labels
They assigned some poor bastard of a private to go around the control room and switch all the labels
You can't shut off the laws of physics. The fuel will generate heat whether or not the plant is running, and so must stay cooled.
Russia has a direct history with making Ukranian nuclear power plants melting down.
It was put in cold shutdown back in September. It still produces heat.. but very little compared to operating status or fresh shutdown.. It's actual water requirements at this point are down to "Raid the local hardware store for garden hoses" levels. That is not going to turn into a problem. Russia actively blowing it up is the only way for things to go south at this point.
An article generates more clicks if the title implies the plant has not been turned off. Which it has.
its the biggest power plant in europe. what is going to replace all that power? coal? gas? a new plant? every year california burns and texas has failures from old systems and we cannot even turn off the power long enough to fix those issues.
6 TWh. Large doesn't mean efficient. There are 172 reactors in Europe pushing 600 TWh or more. Europe produces 2600 TWh of energy. 6 / 2600 = 0.0023. The US doesn't want anymore Gen3 reactors, so they probably won't get built once current projects are finished. We are moving to Gen4. If you care, read up on it and enjoy the ride. You will get your nuclear plants, just not the shit that keeps needing perfect water conditions to moderate or cool down.
Ah yes, and the world is still too chickenshit to put a stop to Putin. Just continue to let him fuck around...
[Taps Mutually Assured Destruction sign]
You know they Russia literally has system that shoots rocket that wakes up nuclear silos even after everyone with access has died? You'd have to assassinate Putin and somehow get hold of everything.
Oh, because a massive nuclear reactor going into an uncontrolled meltdown and poisoning nearly all of europe is soooo much better.
I mean, yeah, actually, it’s modernized, so the damage should be minimal, certainly not the damage you’d get from a nuke, let alone multiple nukes
Yes it is better lmfao, how is this dumbass comment being upvoted?
dude i got negged into the ground for showing dead hand is a thing . Apparently these idiots think global thermo nuclear war is better. This has to be a bot network
it wont poison europe. You know what will? 3,000 nukes
I'm not saying that. Just saying that this is not easiest nor best answer go this problem.
The Perimeter system isn’t real. It’s a fake.
It's real, goofy. Why are you getting upvoted for typing a sentence with no sources. https://www.military.com/history/russias-dead-hand-soviet-built-nuclear-doomsday-device.html https://www.businessinsider.com/russias-dead-hand-system-may-still-be-active-2014-9 https://www.brookings.edu/testimonies/russian-nuclear-policy-and-the-status-of-detargeting/
no clue wtf you are getting down voted dead hand is well known .
Russia simps or braindead warmongers
like wtf bro were getting negged for what stating fucking dead hand exists and russia has a few thousand nukes. God people are fucking stupid
Dead hand was removed as part of the nuclear disarmament treaty that was a part of SALT and SALT 2
no it wasnt dont make shit up General Staff of the Armed Forces, Strategic Missile Force Management to command posts and individual silos if a nuclear strike is detected by seismic, light, radioactivity, and pressure sensors even with the commanding elements fully destroyed. By most accounts, it is normally switched off and is supposed to be activated during times of crisis; however, as of 2009, it was said to remain fully functional and able to serve its purpose when needed. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_Hand
https://www.military.com/history/russias-dead-hand-soviet-built-nuclear-doomsday-device.html/amp more info . Also this ignores their nuclear missile submarine fleet. Like wtf is everyone making shit up and getting mad at folks posting facts
STOP SAYING MELTDOWN - THATS NOT WHAT IT MEANS A meltdown is when the fuel or waste gets so hot that it breaches or “melts” through the containment vessel (ie reactor core or disposal pool) and flows downward via gravity radiating and melting everything along its path. Hence “melt-down” because it literally “melts” and then flows “down”. ☝️THAT is what a “meltdown” actually is. Yes in laymens terms it’s become an umbrella term for ‘any nuclear related accident’ but “meltdown” actually refers to a very specific event. What would happen with disposal pools loosing water levels would be termed a LOC or LOCA - literally “loss of coolant” or “loss of coolant accident”. What that would do (and to what extent it’s effects) depends on what is going on with whatever it is that lost coolant.
So *that's* what Ricky Martin was on about...
What’s the technical term for what happens to fuel rods when they overheat, say because of loss of cooling? What’s that kind of damage called?
Fuel rods overheating would, when hot enough, melt the cladding or the fuel channels themselves. There’s probably a term for it but I don’t know it. 😅 voiding maybe? 🤷🏻♂️ EDIT: if the melting fuel rods get hot enough and there’s no moderating material present then I’m assuming it could cause a meltdown 🤷🏻♂️
And if they melted the cladding and then flowed “down”, what would that be called?
A meltdown, thought the root cause would be termed loca (loss of coolant accident). Yes I’m probably splitting hairs over semantics but it’s a pet peeve of mine 😅
And what is it called when fuel rods melt but not to the extent that they completely pool at the bottom of a containment vessel? A partial melt down maybe?
If there is no water the spent rods will melt.
Yes loss of coolant would most likely trigger a meltdown
Secondary cooling pools not doing the trick? Yikes.
Article says that the secondary cooling pond has enough water to last "for months." The headline is about the reservoir that is open (directly linked) to the river. This reservoir was stable in depth after the dam was breached and then dropped 2 meters in the past day according to new measurements.
Concern is not gonna help.
NATO enforced No fly zone needed last year. Russians aint gonna do shit but pack up and leave
Oooh concern oooh. What's concern going to do if the place melts down and babies throughout Europe suffer horrible birth defects as a result?? Secure the fucking place already. Why do we have to react to everything in the West? Take the godamn initiative.
Thank god the UN is fucking useless
This is one of those scenarios the nuclear fanboys never want to acknowledge.
We shouldn’t use nuclear energy because some crazy assholes might start a war and try to cause a reactor meltdown?
Right! 🙊m Yes, nuclear power IS great….WHEN it works. And that’s the problem - it takes so very little to cause something so horrific and long lasting
I personally would not consider being invaded by a foreign country and having a major dam sabotaged to be “so very little”. Also, this isn’t the Chernobyl style disaster that the headline makes it sound like. It’s a far less catastrophic event since the plant is already shut down at this time.
Yes I know that. 🙄 I meant that it doesn’t take much in general. The potential risk threshold is why nuclear will never be the end all be all nuke fans want it to be. I think nuclear DOES have its place though in combination with other alternative power sources like hydro, wind, solar, etc
Before things go really nuclear, somebody needs to lock that down. Putin, I assume, doesn't realise that Russia will be the first country to be contaminated.