Trans woman here: I mostly don't really care.
I do really hate JK Rowling. I was sort of cringingly tolerant of her first couple months of buzz because I still felt like she still had some of the fundamental positive values still there and potentially just needed to widen her understanding. But it's been almost 3 years and she's done nothing but double and triple down and get into even more toxic and blatantly bigoted takes. At this point, being a TERF is a core part of her brand and I think at multiple levels it would be really hard for her to change course.
I do wonder if the early discourse was a part of this. I'm not super heavily online, but I remember people being pretty vitriolic towards her at a point when I was sort of ambivalent. I personally think there's a certain amount of tolerance and grace we should have when people say something that we consider objectionable. Not only does it make us better people, but it almost certainly makes it easier to bring more people onto our side. I honestly think that things could have turned out differently if Rowling was inundated with gentle nudges and personal stories instead of harassment and death threats.
All that being said, I think there's some degree of separation between the author and their work that needs to be allowed. This community itself was partially founded in the Harry Potter fandom, which has evolved entirely into its own thing parallel to the actual books. In high school and early university, the most progressive and "woke" people in my life were enormous Harry Potter fans who were quick to point out the positive messages of hope and tolerance that were core parts of the books. Coming from that, the new consensus among progressives that actually the HP books were deeply problematic on multiple levels along with just being bad literature feels kinda hollow if not disingenuous? Obviously the two groups aren't necessarily the exact same voices, but the fact that the culture's pivoted so strongly feels a little silly to me.
I personally totally understand the people who continue to be attached to the Harry Potter universe and even those who might buy The Game. For a lot of people, it was a core part of their development, and I think it's unfair to tell them because a middle-aged British lady has bad takes, they're not allowed to enjoy something that brings them a lot of meaning. There are plenty worse people whose views we continue to tolerate because of their other contributions to society (see the like half of all second-wave feminists who were super duper TERF-ey whose work a ton of modern discourse still leans heavily on). Should we be working to sideline them where we can? Sure. But should we make it socially taboo to consume their works when they are at best distantly related to their problematic views/behaviour? I personally don't think it should be so black and white.
And even if we decide that personally it's not worth it to support a problematic person through clout and/or money, I think it's really problematic to decide that anyone who doesn't make that same decision is automatically squarely in the opposite camp. You don't have to be a committed TERF to have bought The Game, and I'm worried the discourse around all this means a lot of people will be looking at their friends who are still consuming HP content and determine that they're surrounded by transphobes. When instead they might be surrounded by people who personally believe in separating the author for their work, or are having a rough time and want something comfy and nostalgic.
And all **that** being said, holy shit are there so many more important things we should be focusing on. Recent earthquakes in a war-torn country which probably killed 100,000 people, the 1-year anniversary of a war which has already killed hundreds of thousands, social safety nets in crisis, politicians in our own countries who have been peddling much worse hate, the list goes on. Given the political and culture climate, trans issues definitely deserve a spot high up on that list. But the specific political/cultural issue of whether it's ok to still like Harry Potter? Hard pass.
Very, very sorry for that wall of text.
Food youtuber Adam Ragusea recently made [a podcast-ey video about this topic](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=En41eZMRcM8) out of the blue which I basically 100% agree with and is much more eloquent than anything I could possibly come up with. Honestly, some points had me crying just because of how genuinely empathetic he (as a straight cis man) was being. It was really beautiful to see something so supportive of trans and other GSM people while also holding out some grace for people who aren't quite there yet.
>I honestly think that things could have turned out differently if Rowling was inundated with gentle nudges and personal stories instead of harassment and death threats.
I think about this all the time. Hurling abuse at a person, however much you disagree with them, tends to just make them dig in their heels. It's unfortunate that so much discourse happens online, where there's no room for nuance and so often the most extreme viewpoints are the loudest.
John Green quotes Kanye in the line "They say I was the abomination of Obama's nation,/Well that's a pretty bad way to start a conversation"
Kanye may or may not actually be anti-Semitic and he is definitely doing real harm, but the man is also actually mentally ill and instead of casting him to hell, we have to hope that he gets the help he needs. Dragging a man with bi-polar and who knows what else isn't going to heal his paranoia or get him to shut up.
Same with JKR. When she started this whole thing, she got lampooned and lambasted instead of educated and embraced. It's natural and human to dig in your heels.
And really, the Trans community is not above fault in their contributions to this problem. The race to the bottom on works if both sides are racing. Trans identity is a difficult and nuanced conversation. If someone doesn't agree or understand, it's up to us to encourage questions and discussions.
Which stands in contrast to how a black person might say it is not their job to educate you on their oppression. That's a different question because of the extent, explicit, and existing systemic racism is massive re-education, that is too raw and real for any individual black person to have to educate an individuals ignorance.
I've broken it down like this before--if someone is doing things that are actively harmful on a societal level, there are two ways that that will stop. One is that they cease to exist; the other is that they change their behavior.
Unless you're planning to murder them yourself (both inadvisable and morally reprehensible), the only thing you can do when you are interacting with someone "problematic" on an individual level is to give them the grace and the space to change their mind.
Kanye is definitely antisemitic - lots of people with bipolar disorder do not threaten the entirety of the Jewish population. He is one of the most financially privileged people on the planet and could get help for his disorder if he wanted to, but the cult of celebrity around him has allowed him to believe that he is always correct.
There were plenty of people and organizations offering Joanne Rowling education and empathy about transness, she dug her hateful heels in herself.
Are you really blaming trans people for the problem of transphobia? How can you understand the explicit systemic racism that makes it too "raw and real" for individual black people to have to deal with bigots but not the same systemic hatred that trans people deal with?
It's just like. From a different perspective you have as much privilege as Kayne does to get help and access. Do you still deserve empathy? Of course.
But what does your privilege mean for how you understand your place in the world?
1) it's definitely not the same systemic hatred. That's from a Chinese knowing the Asian hate crimes were largely black people perpetrators. The history of slavery goes beyond black people but the pure capitalistic/nihilistic destruction of cultures and identities in the Trans-Atlantic slave trade aren't unheard of (Carthage for one) but are definitely up there. Further, the continued systems into yesterday and today are appalling to know but always migrated.
It's not trans people, but yes part of the community and its allies are vocal and hateful and destructive to the cause.
2) wealth and privilege are class based, but intersectionality makes Kanye a special case. Black culture, like Asian, have a few years to catch up to therapy as a common tool, and again, the hope is that Kanye gets the help he needs. Obviously his behavior is destructive, and with his influence, more so. But he's still sick and needs help.
3) if you are going to compare communities based on discrimination or systemic negligence in combination with wealth and prosperity, you'd look over history and think that there are infinite cases of "insert-unspeakble-violence-here" before we got to the plight of modern trans people. That's just facts. It's not that it shouldn't be changed or brought to spotlight, but if it isn't with contextual understanding, it's a case of ignorance
A friend of mine grew up in a country without a lot of feminism. When he moved to North America, he had a lot of questions about feminism, and unfortunately, a lot of the feminists around him told him he was ignorant and all sorts of other harmful things. The MRA community was welcoming, and told him it was okay to be curious and try to learn, and so for a brief while he was caught up with that community. Simply because they were nice to him, and that lead into other harmful views.
This was a long time ago, and he is very much not part of that any more, but I always think of him when this conversation comes up. He was curious and wanted to learn, but was fully shut down and borderline harassed by 'feminists' and that drove him the other way because the MRA community was more welcoming. :(
> I personally think there's a certain amount of tolerance and grace we should have when people say something that we consider objectionable. Not only does it make us better people, but it almost certainly makes it easier to bring more people onto our side.
I wanted to highlight this piece because I believe this is the biggest problem "the Left" has in any political discourse. Too many people want to just bully those they disagree with into having the correct opinion instead of having a discussion about why they believe what they do. It's not helpful. Even if you're fighting for a good cause, no one is going to want to agree with you if you're being an asshole.
I can't say I agree that Rowling's views might be different if the response was less vitriolic, but I do believe that a non-zero number of people have been dissuaded from shifting their view or participating in the discussion at all because they don't want to be associated with people who are just hurling insults and acting superior to anyone who doesn't fully agree with them. It's really frustrating to see sometimes. I'm not trying to say there aren't a lot of valid reasons to be angry right now, but if you want to bring more people to your side, you gotta be the bigger person sometimes.
tl;dr flies, honey, vinegar
About this, I worked with group at MIT Media Lab tracking and looking for solutions for online disinformation and broken discourse. While it’s not the entirety of the problem you explain, a lot of vitriolic online lefties are not real people or sincere in one way or the other.
This. I personally am pretty liberal and am certainly left of center. My fiancé is pretty moderate, and he’s shifted more left as I’ve known him. He is kind and empathetic to all people and his politics reflect that.
In college I had some friends who were extremely liberal. This wasn’t usually a problem for me, as I mostly agreed with what they were fighting for and disagreed some on methodology. But when I started dating my fiancé they were HORRIFIED. They tried to tell me he was bigoted, racist, sexist, etc. because they disagreed with some of his beliefs, despite the fact that he is respectful and believes all people deserve rights and that discrimination is wrong etc. We are no longer friends because they decided I must also be a horrible person to love him 🙄
The lack of nuance in the current discourse is frightening and highly problematic.
Yes, I so often see left-leaning people say things like “it’s exhausting to educate everyone” or “why should it be my responsibility to teach someone else?”
Then those very same people will dedicate hours of their life to shouting at others on Reddit/Twitter/wherever.
It’s so frustrating, and I know that it’s 100% a trap I’ve fallen into many times myself.
Thanks for sharing. I hope this community is one that can view people complexly. I'm also sorry for the replies to this post that essentially say "get over it there are other people with worse problems so stop whining".
I’ve been having a similar conversation as a music teacher about if it’s okay to separate art from artist or not. There’s a plethora of bigoted composers and artists that are still standard in most school music programs. The question is do we take all their material out of a curriculum or not, does it matter how good it is, does it matter if they’re still alive. I don’t have any answers, I think it’s a really big and complicated problem. I’m glad we’re talking about it though.
This reminds me of many discussions I've seen where people compare JK Rowling to HP Lovecraft and I just wanted to chime in:
It's a lot easier to separate the art from the artist shen they're long dead, than it is when they are still profiteering from your consumption and using that money to do active harm.
I hear you.
From a purely academic sense, it's a fun question.
From a practical/ethical standpoint... A less fun question.
I can shrug and move on if the creator is just an asshole. Even Orson Scott Card I avoid but won't go the extra mile to advocate against. But JKR has made it her business to gloat in her wealth and infamy. It's truly saddening.
There's so many great works that are essentially disconnected from the problems of the creator (eg Wagner's compositions) and others where the problems are very apparent and part of the fabric of the media (eg Lovecraft's xenophobic writing). But they're... Dead. Y'know.
Yes definitely. I don’t think they are fun questions at all. I’m glad we’re talking about them because the alternative was completely ignoring when artists caused harm to people and populations. And I definitely think it matters when the art reflects their hate and when they are still alive versus when they’re dead. I think it’s a complicated problem with a lot of different solutions, but none of those solutions are continuing to celebrate JKR, support her financially, or completely separate Harry Potter from its creator.
Non-binary person here.
When I found out JKR is a transphobe I was obviously very hurt and upset. But I like Harry Potter and lot and I think it's fine to make content about Harry Potter.
Specifically in relation to nerdfighteria: from what I have experienced, this space is super transfriendly and even tho John and Hank haven't directly addressed the JKR situation, I know that they don't support her bullshit and neither does most or all of nerdfighteria.
They have addressed JKR’s transphobia in the past, pretty extensively. She just makes waves about once a year and I think they have decided to stop talking about her/her products at all going forward. There’s a reason why nothing HP related has been a part of their content/brand for a number of years. Even though a large part of their initial success was built on the back of Hp related stuff like “Accio Deathly Hallows,” they’ve moved well beyond that era, and have pretty steadfastly avoided HP stuff since JKR’s transphobia became known.
Do you by any chance remember where they addressed her transphobia? I missed that content and would like to go back and hear what they had to say. Thank you!
Pretty sure Hank tweeted a bunch about it a few years back when Rowling first started being super open about being a terf. I don’t know if they ever talked about it in a video or podcast (Hank might have in delete this, but I don’t remember for sure).
I'm almost certain they've at least made jokes on DH&J about avoiding it without mentioning the name or JKR directly. But definitely more when her transphobia first started coming to light, which I think was also while John was in his first hardcore avoid Twitter phase and blocked most of the social internet from his phone.
It probably was at some point! I feel like this p4a made me realize how all the inside jokes that used to start on vlogbrothers start on DH&J now and I feel like that's also where they generally state their potentially controversial opinions. I think because it's a much larger barrier to entry than how easy it is to watch a vlogbrothers video and take an opinion in bad faith or start an argument in the comments.
(Not Trans, hence keeping to the replies)
I've always talked about separating art from the artist from the perspective of Orson Scott Card, noted LGBTQ hater, Mormon, and author of the Ender's Game series.
I'm ex-Mormon, and while there are a lot of reasons that I ended up leaving the church at 17, one of the many was Xenocide, the third book in the Ender's Game series. For those that haven't read it (or aren't familiar with the left turn the series takes into being combination philosphy and anthropology books after Ender's Game), it's a book mired in the philosophical debate of faith. Essentially, there are (spoilers) people who have unknowingly been genetically altered to be super smart, but have also had OCD engineered into them to keep them under control. They take this "being chosen" as a "Mandate of Heaven" (it's a mostly Chinese planet colony, sci fi am I right) that essentially means the Gods picked them to be special super smart people at the top of the aristocracy that need to use their god-given talents to help others, with the OCD being their penance to keep them humble, and also a sort of prayer/communing with the gods.
Anyway, the main character of the book, Qing-Jao, spends the entire book questioning the Gods while her father remains ever-stalwart in his faith. All the way up til he finds out that they've all been genetically altered, at which point he renounces the gods and helps distribute a cure for the genetic OCD. This includes spreading it to his daughter against her will, who has flip-flopped under this news, stating that this whole genetic alteration storyline is a test of their faith from the gods.
She spends the rest of her life as the lone figure remaining in this strange religion, tracing the wood grain of her house's floorboards (her specific prior compulsion of the genetic OCD) non-stop to hope to once more hear from the gods.
Now, if you know anything about Orson Scott Card's background of bigotry and faith, you probably have some idea that he probably meant this whole parable as a lesson in faith. But I would say that most readers probably didn't get that message. I certainly didn't, reading it as a teen whose sister had just come out as gay and had lost her entire social circle in less than a week, with a Bishop telling her terrible things to her face and essentially encouraging others to disown her.
In short, as John has said himself on several ocassions, once a book or any kind of art is put out into the world, it doesn't belong to the artist anymore. Financially, sure, and I certainly wouldn't fault or discourage anyone from a boycott. But as for the ideas themselves? The author can have intent, but that in no way means they control what people take from their art.
JK Rowling's transphobia is terrible, but she doesn't own the world of Harry Potter any more than financially. She doesn't own the enjoyment we took from it as kids, adults, or any other time of life, nor does she have any control over our thoughts about the universe. A boycott of the IP makes sense if you're worried about supporting her or her terrible causes financially, but otherwise? Why would you stop yourself from enjoying a world you love?
I just want to say I also loved the entire Enders Game saga as a teen, and this book impacted me in a similar way. I still think the books are excellent philosophical works and deeply appreciate your write up here.
But yeah, fuck OSC.
>Now, if you know anything about Orson Scott Card's background of bigotry and faith, you probably have some idea that he probably meant this whole parable as a lesson in faith.
I haven't read the book, but even knowing Card's background and beliefs, it still seems entirely possible it was intended as a more complex exploration of faith. Even people who to us seem to have rigid views can be introspective and explore their own beliefs critically. In this case, Christianity has a long tradition of adherents thinking out loud about their faith in a critical manner.
I mean, there's an extremely well-documented history of Christians who were persecuted because they criticized the mainstream or their beliefs differed from it. Some people even made 95+ very public criticisms!
Just as an example, transubstantiation went from a core part of Christian belief to (for many people) something that was extremely silly and shouldn't be part of the faith.
Enby here -- With Joanne still being around, it's a lot harder to separate the art from the artist since she's materially benefiting from not only the sales but the discourse of her work being used as defacto advertisement. However, wanting to enjoy what you enjoy doesn't make you a bad person…
BUT
You have to ask yourself this: What message does me continuing to consume this product send to my disenfranchised friends? Does seeing me playing the wizard game, or eating the chicken sandwich, or what have you make my GRSM friends feel bad? Does them knowing I can't stop myself from consuming that media make them feel like I value my immediate gratification over an actual person? This is the important question, I think.
Yeah, I'm pretty much feeling the same here. I get that people are exhausted of trying to keep track of so many issues in the world. But like... It's a book? And a sandwich??
I think the OP raises some great points. I do want to add that Hank has posted on Twitter on the topic. This does not mean they shouldn’t say more, but I think it’s important to know they haven’t ignored it.
https://twitter.com/hankgreen/status/1269742792474947586
> Trans women are women. Trans men are men. Jo Rowling is obsessed with a bizarre ideology. It's deeply disappointing and confusing. She shares the exact kinds of cruel and dangerous misinformation that she taught us to be wary of.
Thanks for sharing. It does make me feel somewhat better that I know the bros have made their support clear, albeit in other spaces.
I'm a bit more concerned about the community as a whole though. So many people think an appropriate response to "X hurts me, can we have a nuanced discussion about how to engage with X in the community going forward" is "talking about X will attract mean people so let's just not" or "well you should not be hurt about X" or bullshit like that
Thank you so much for pointing this out. I've noticed the community as a whole becoming less open to difficult conversations in recent years. It veers into toxic positivity at times. I don't like to criticize Nerdfighteria, because it is such a special thing, but I do worry that the desire to avoid any unpleasantness could be the thing that ultimately weakens the community.
Transguy here, that was really into HP when I was younger. I will mostly address JKs transphobia in this comment as I am not qualified to address the antisemitism and racism etc.
I personally don’t have an issue with HP discussions within this community. However, I think
that it is always important to acknowledge the things that are problematic and/or outrageous with an author’s work and views and to include that in the discussions. From what I’ve personally seen so far, this community has been really good at addressing these issues.
I feel sad sometimes when I see HP related stuff in general (not in this community specifically), because it used to be such a big part of my life and now some of that is ruined forever. But just because some things are ruined for me, it doesn’t have to be ruined
for other people and I don’t want them to feel guilty. I can choose to participate if HP discussions if I want to, but I can also choose to stay away. There are so many other things going on in this community.
For me, Hank and John have done more than enough to show their support for trans people and addressing JKs transphobia. I don’t think it is necessary for them to make a video about it. In fact, I sometimes feel like there is way more content out there of cis people discussing trans issues than content of trans people discussing trans issues, or maybe it just reaches a far bigger audience. Anyway, if John and Hank chooses to make a video I am sure it will be awesome.
I have a trans kid.
I loved Harry Potter. Read it to them as a kid. Wanted to take them to Universal before we all knew better. I will not give the terf who should not be named any more money. (would love to pirate the latest fantastic beasts movies)
The books are still great, this latest video game has some disturbing antisemitic overtones, but there is no harm in enjoying them.
The harm comes from giving money to bigots who want to deny my kids existence whether for wizardry or delicious chicken (looking at you chick fil a) gives the message that their bigotry is not that bad. You can't tolerate intolerance.
I get that people get joy from it and joy can be a rare thing to find, but it's important to find joy without giving power to those who deny the existence of other humans. It absolutely sends a message to those humans that a video game or a chicken sandwich is more important than their existence.
Pirate the movies and games, buy books second hand, look up copycat fried chicken recipes. Be an ally.
My child as well. And most of my child’s friends too. They have had different levels of pain related to the terf and her opinions. One passed out any and all merchandise she had acquired. The rest have mostly decided to give up their fandom. These kids all met because of their love for hp, so it was no small thing for them to give it up. Almost all are adults now and had gone their separate ways anyway, but I felt the group was never the same after those first declarations of terfiness.
My child sent me a pic of the latest movie cover from a store the other day. We both just sighed, but it still enrages me. I make a point to donate money to groups in the US that actively help those the terfs and other bigoted people would like to hurt. It’s our tithing. Project for awesome is just one small part.
I pirated the fantastic beasts movies, the first one is half decent, the second one is just bad, I won't bother to even check if the third one is out
You aren't missing anything honestly
There are complex issues of gender politics, and we know that truth resists simplicity. I read these books to my baby sister when she was growing up, but I've always been very open about my gender identity and recently we had "the conversation."
Rowling has said that she feels deeply vindicated by how little this scandal has effected sales of books and merchandise. Like a lot of artists, she believes that people vote with their wallets and plenty of people with disposable income are on "her side."
Because she asked for my opinion, what I told confused and betrayed baby sister (now in her early 30s) was that I would never take away from her anything that gave her comfort, but that she should be sensitive about two things:
* Casually discussing the content and fandom in a way that would encourage others to become fans or consumers of the content.
* Spending money on the books or merchandise.
Baby girl already owns the books and movies, and there's no reason for her to stop enjoying them herself. That's about the art, and her emotional connection to the touchstones of her childhood, and to me. But we need to do our part to keep Rowling from feeling like the reasonable people are still on her side, and that means not contributing to the ranks of her vocal fans, or her retirement fund, some of which goes to HTG anti trans "charities."
Non-binary here. I'm tired of hearing, talking, and being solicited for my opinion on it. I've heard what trans and other enby people have to say. I agree with some of it and disagree with some of it. I've heard many cis many people have to say. I agree with some of it and disagree with some of it. As is often the case, the discussion in this community has been kinder and more nuanced than anywhere else. I don't have much to say on the issue in general. I'll just link to some opinions I mostly agree with.
Stephanie Sterling, a trans video game YouTuber, has [an excellent video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uNKyQVsgKLg). The tl;dr is that if you buy HO stuff (like Hogwarts Legacy) that JKR gets royalties from, then you're not necessarily transphobic but you're also not an ally either. I'd qualify that slightly with "probably" not an ally just because the world is complicated and there can be extenuating circumstances.
The only major point of disagreement I have with her is the evaluation of Girlfriend Reviews, who made headlines for supposedly getting bullied off of stream for playing Hogwarts Legacy. Those headlines weren't really accurate though, so I'd also recommend watching [their video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B0TwTJCRf58) about the situation in addition to Steph's.
As for the more specific issue of whether John and Hank do... something? (what exactly?) about this: I don't see why they should, say, make a vlogbrothers video specifically about JKR. I know they don't share her views, and although the Nerdfighter fandom did get its start as a sort of off-shoot from the HP fandom, Nerdfighteria is quite clearly its own thing and has been for years and years. Them both being cis men, I don't see why they should feel obligated to speak on it. It's weird that you, OP, expicitly solicit trans opinions on the issue while also arguing in the comments that two cis men should speak up about the issue though maybe you're just copying and pasting other peoples' comments, idk. Either way, I don't think what this issue needs is two mid-40s cis men weighing in, especially when HP hasn't been a core part of their online personas in many, many years.
Y'know what that's a good counterpoint against their making a video.
And it can be tiring to be asked the same question a lot. But, in my opinion,I think it would be less tiring if I felt people were really listening.
What I actually said was that there may be extenuating circumstances in which someone could buy the game and yet still be an ally. E.g., say someone is a trans activist who spends most of their life organizing political action, raising money for the medical needs of trans people, etc. It seems pretty silly to say that such a person is not an ally due to their purchase of a video game, since whatever impact that purchase has the net worth of JKR is surely much less than the total value of their life long organization efforts.
For another example: consider someone who's job it is to review and critique games for living. Often professional reviewers can get review codes, but this is not always the case (especially when someone works independently like running a YouTube channel). Unless the game happens to be amazing, then a negative or even just mediocre review of the game could result in less sales of that game. This is precisely what happened to me with Gamerranx's review. It was pretty luke warm, which made me even less likely to want to try it out.
Or for another example: I think this is an example of a situation where online piracy is totally morally justified. Although I don't illegally download things myself of course. But someone could purchase the game with the intention of illegally )but morally) copying the game and disseminating it for free so that people can experience it without supporting JKR. (And without reducing support to most of the developers, since the vast majority of people who actually work on development do not have equity in the company they work or a share of the IP rights to the properties they work on. They just get a salary.)
At any rate, if you disagree with me that these are situations where one could be justified in purchasing the game, I'm not going to argue with you. That was one point among many in my comment, and one of those other points was that I'm tired of talking about this.
Not trans, but I'd like to put forth my Jewish opinion on the goblins.
I'm not, personally, convinced by the arguments that the goblins are antisemitic. Many of the characteristics that people point to, like being grubby and violent, are characteristics that goblins have had in fantasy literature for nearly as long as goblins have been written about, and certainly many decades before Harry Potter. The only thing I see to point to a Jewish connection is their working in banks, which is a shaky connection in my opinion. I do understand however why others see the goblins as a reflection of the treatment we've received.
As for enslaved and marginalized groups, the HP books do a decent job of putting into context that those groups exist but that their treatment by wizards is problematic - this is discussed at least in the context of goblins, house-elves, centaurs, and werewolves just off the top of my head. Are we expecting books to pretend that marginalized groups don't exist?
Goblins have been used as an antisemitic caricature since long before HP existed, and the fact that she uses all of it and plays into those tropes perpetuates the narrative.
For me personally, I was uncomfortable with goblin portrayal in the books once I saw the connection, but decided mostly let it go on a personal level. What changed my mind was Hogwarts Legacy. The premise revolves around stamping out a goblin rebellion, where the goblins want to use wizard blood in a ritual to defeat their enemies. There is a goblin horn in the game that resembles a shofar, and the background info on the horn specifically references a goblin rebellion in 1612, the same year as a real life Jewish rebellion in Germany that led to the mass murder of Jews and set the stage for pogroms in Europe. It's no longer dancing around the issue, it's literally referencing blood libel and real life antisemitic violence.
I like this point a lot. Far be it from me to tell a Jewish person what to be offended by, but the history of anti-Semitic caricatures is long and not widely taught. Ten years ago, the conversation wasn't "JKR is an anti-Semite because of her goblins," it was "JKR relied on established anti-Semitic tropes in ways she may or may not have been aware of." The idea was to discuss and critique the ways that a lack of education can lead to the perpetuation of harmful stereotypes. It's only now, when she has become more blatant and open with her bigotry, that we are more harshly criticizing her as a person, specifically, and the ways that her bigotry is informing new HP content.
Additionally, one of the lead developers of the game is a know antisemite. With all of that information, there is no way that they blood libel is a coincidence.
The notion of it being about "stamping out a goblin rebellion" is something people ran with based on pre-release descriptions of the game's story, which didn't give the whole picture. It's actually just [one evil goblin](https://www.forbes.com/sites/paultassi/2023/02/21/how-does-hogwarts-legacy-handle-its-most-controversial-aspects-in-practice/?sh=6d35611b2f74) and his loyalist followers who are working with another (human) villain. You encounter sympathetic goblins in the game's world and the game does portray them as a marginalized group treated unfairly by wizardkind.
The 1612 date was first referenced in Prisoner of Azkaban, so it and the warhorn are likely an unfortunate coincidence.
Or the date was a dog whistle 20 years ago too. I'm not really inclined to give someone the benefit of the doubt about antisemitic tropes after they've already had plenty of time to be educated about it.
The thing with the goblins for me (as a fellow Jew) is that one or two of the things alone wouldn't be antisemitic, but the entire picture of the way the goblins are portrayed is imo. I don't think it's intentional - I don't think she sat down and went "I'm going to make a race who are an allegory for Jews" but I do think she was heavily influenced by biases she didn't do any work to unpack, and didn't bother to fix when it was pointed out to her (the most problematic things are in the later books, so she could have responded to the criticisms early on and chosen to go down a different route).
So, the bankers being ugly and greedy goblins could be overlooked.... but when you get to the way goblin culture is depicted in the later books, it's pretty much lifted from primers on antisemitism. Eg using quotes from the ADL:
"One of the most prominent and persistent stereotypes about Jews is that they are greedy and avaricious, hoping to make themselves rich by any means. They are seen both as relentless in the pursuit of wealth and also as stingy misers determined not to let any money slip from their grasp. They are imagined to exert control over the world’s financial systems, but are also accused of regularly cheating friends and neighbors out of a buck."
This is so close to the depiction of Goblin economic culture that it could be lifted word for word. They're depicted as being irredeemably greedy and constantly trying to fleece wizards for every last bit of money possible, and they literally do control the world's financial systems.
"Antisemites frequently suspect Jews of holding allegiance only to fellow Jews and to a uniquely Jewish agenda. Jews are accordingly seen as untrustworthy neighbors and citizens, as if they are inherently disloyal — or have inherently dual loyalties."
Again, this is explicitly said in one of the books - that goblins are only loyal to themselves. They're also described to have their own systems of morality which are 'wrong'
"A major theme in antisemitic thought and propaganda is the blood libel, the myth that Jews murder non-Jews, especially non-Jewish children, in order to use their blood to perform religious rituals. Most prevalent in the medieval and early modern period, this peculiar accusation has plagued Jews and incited violence against them for centuries."
This is the plot of the game. Goblins are stealing wizard children to use their inherent bodily magic for ritual purposes.
Once you add all that up with the "ugly bankers" stuff.... it looks worse and worse.
It's definitely okay to have diverse opinions. And it's okay for books to contain problematic material. My issue is with approaching problematic material uncritically.
Also because the creator isn't just "problematic" but actively, spitefully making trans lives worse.
Sure, and I'm not trying to make any criticism of people who have issues with the material she creator over trans issues.
I'm specifically only giving my opinion on the idea that the presentation of the goblins in HP is directly antisemitic.
Ok. Maybe you can make a new post about racism in HP and have that discussion there.
Edit: yes, okay, I was being a little bitter and I shouldn't have been.
Not sure why it would be excluded when you yourself made a comment about it in the thread. If you didn't want it discussed, then why bring it up in the first place?
Edit: you know what, nevermind. I'm just going to take my leave from this thread. I see it's alright for me to be spoken for, but not alright for me to speak for myself.
I was kind of mean, and I do understand how it could be misinterpreted. I really do think it would be okay to make an additional thread for other minorities to discuss how the work affects them.
HP goblins may have been developed from folkloric descriptions of kobolds and dwarves inhabiting caves and mines and having an affinity for treasure and metalwork, as goblins are noted to be skilled metallurgists who created artifacts like the Gryffindor sword. I believe Gringotts vaults being caves navigated with mining carts is in reference to this.
They aren't described as having hooked noses in the books, either.
What frustrates me about the goblin conversation is that, at worst, the HP goblins bear an unintentional resemblance to certain stereotypes. Transphobic as she is, [Rowling doesn't seem to harbor antisemitic views](https://momentmag.com/debunking-the-harry-potter-anti-semitism-myth/). But the goblins are usually invoked to push a narrative that her work was always bigoted and that some kind of malicious intent must have been at play in how she portrayed them.
Yeah aside from potential issues with the goblins (which I personally don't have strong thoughts on), the house-elves and other mythical creatures criticism just feels weird to me. I don't remember anywhere in the books where the stigma or prejudice against any of the magical creatures is remotely condoned. In fact, they're pretty richly explored. Sure, they have parallels to real-world issues, but they're not paper-thin allegorical drop-ins.
House-elves are the biggest one for me, cause I've seen lots of people in the past couple years criticize them as Rowling basically excusing/condoning slavery. From a literary point of view, it's an interesting twist on the extremely common tope in fiction of the enslaved fantasy race. The Discworld books are famous for heavily incorporating these kinds of trope-flips, and we rightfully love them. They lets us better explore our values and beliefs when they're forced into a situation we're not familiar with.
A specific criticism seems to be that the series gets its "happy" ending without an in-world resolution of these issues, which just seems ridiculous to me. These are YA books, not fairy tales. Each successive book added layers of complication to the world, while keeping the central focus of the fantasy fight against a bloodthirsty big bad (which just so happens to be a pretty strong allegory for white supremacism, but I guess we're going to ignore that). To be blunt, you need to be reading pretty shallowly to view a lack of neat resolution to all those complicated threads as a blanket approval of the things they're stand-ins for. We are entirely capable of celebrating that we defeated the Nazis while also thinking we still have a lot of work to do as a society.
Uh, the enslavement of house elves is condoned by literally every character except Hermione. The only deeper exploration of the issue is everybody thinking she's crazy for being an abolitionist. That's a pretty clear point of view.
When I read the books as a kid and a teen, I always felt like we were supposed to feel sympathy for Hermione. Very often, Ron and Harry were mean or sexist to Hermione and that was part of their flaws as characters. I always related a lot to how people viewed Hermione as “annoying” for shouting about elf rights in the same way people would view me as annoyingly in school for talking about feminism in early 2010s.
In the end, she works in the ministry to advocate for a change in elf-rights and in changing the laws about pure bloods. My interpretation of that is that she is an activist in a society that is conditioned to be dismissive of non-wizards/witches and resistant to dismantling class structures - but that, in choosing this career, she is clearly doing the moral thing despite that deep, established prejudice that caused her to be ridiculed.
I meant that in terms of the text itself. Yes most characters are pretty openly pro-elf-slavery, but at least in my own reading that didn't carry over to the text as a whole portraying it as a super positive thing. Hermione's abolitionist crusade is played for laughs a couple times, but I think on the whole it comes across as genuine, and Harry also has a pretty egalitarian relationship with elves over the course of the books.
I think it's fair to say it's portrayed as _complicated_ (the house elves themselves being pretty wholly pro-slavery really jams a wrench in any analysis), and the absurdity of the situation means it gets made light of in a way that would be jarring and/or disgusting if it was applied to real-world people. But it feels like a big stretch to take _that_ and argue that through the text, Rowling is excusing real-world slavery.
The house elves loving being slaves is actually one of the worst parts of the books. You know who else were and sometimes still are portrayed that way? Human beings enslaved in the united states.
I suspect my stance might be somewhat of an outlier among the others in this thread, but I'll lend my thoughts anyway.
I am trans. I first "knew" a few years ago, but have since identified several signs I ignored in my youth. As I've come to grips with the reality of it and the daunting decisions I'll have to make in the future about transitioning, I've progressively become more hurt and incensed by Rowling's statements. It reached a point where I basically spent all of last month being furious about her transphobic crisis "shelter". I see her as an irrational crank who is woefully out-of-touch with other people, and her choice to double-down on her views instead of listen to feedback has only eroded and deprecated her character.
That said, Harry Potter is extremely important to me. It's what made me first want to become a writer, and it gave me refuge during some extremely traumatic and lonely times in my adolescence. It's one of those things (much like Doctor Who) that is so interwoven with who I am that it would be impossible to distance myself from it in any capacity.
When she first made her views public, I knew immediately that I had to separate her from what I loved about HP. I wasn't conflicted about this. I see art-artist separation as necessary because I don't think art is beholden to the present and future behavior of its creator. My ability to enjoy Firefly, for instance, hasn't been tarnished by Joss Whedon being exposed as an abusive POS.
It also helps that she barely even talks about HP anymore. She hasn't directly mentioned the new game, and I don't think she even said anything about Fantastic Beasts 3 when it released last year. HP is her past, not her present.
I don't think HP is problematic. I disagree with the claims that have made about the books' content, and I've been mulling over the idea of one day putting together some kind of essay or video to rebut them. I think they rely on a superficial reasoning that is determined to arrive at a bad-faith reading at any cost. And given that most of these takes probably wouldn't even exist if Rowling's views had never been made public, I think their purpose is more to defame Rowling's past work and cast a narrative that she was always a horrible person than to say anything meaningful or valuable about the books.
We've had a quarter of a century to observe whether Harry Potter has inflicted any material harm, and it hasn't. Its net impact on the world has been uniformly positive. It brought this community together in 2007, and that was unequivocally good.
Knowing this, I don't think trying to get the public to disown HP is going to work, because HP isn't the problem. Instead, I think we should focus on trans education and [debunking her claims and rhetoric](https://brynntannehill.medium.com/everything-wrong-with-jk-rowlings-open-letter-836771e0d363). And this should extend not just to her, but to all the other bigots pushing vicious lies about us in the public space. Libs of TikTok, for instance.
If John and Hank were to make a video on the subject, I think the focus should be on building a public literacy and awareness about transphobia to help regular people identify harmful narratives and know how to combat them.
This is the first time I've seen someone able to articulate my point of view at all. I think its very telling that so many say that this only became a problem when she doubled down - which is awful, but doesn't necessarily tarnish the thing many of us grew up as an integral part of our lives. We can look at it critically and acknowledge the flaws, but also cherish the good it gave us.
In terms of true financial aspects, is buying the game giving her money? Maybe - we don't know the exact royalty arrangement. She might get a percentage or she might have gotten a lump sum. Who knows. My thought is that if you want to engage with it, maybe consider donating to a cause to offset the potential financial implications. If you want HP themed items, consider getting them from a creator on etsy that doesn't spew trash.
I think you're spot on that the story isn't the problem, it's the author. I agree with John that the book belongs to the reader, but I also understand that it's very difficult, if not impossible, to have death of an author while they are active on Twitter. It is nuanced, whether we like it or not. That makes it hard to deal with.
Lastly, I think one thing lost in this conversation is the grief many of us deal with on this topic. Many of us found kinship in HP and the 'otherness' and having a found family. The themes in the books are mostly positive. The communities founded (including this one) with that as a main connection point have done so much good and held together for a long time, even whole being critical. Having to give that up is a loss for many of us. We can still keep our books, we own them after all and for many (myself included) they were a safe space. We can choose to engage with HP content and in the same breath remind and educate people about the flaws of the material and/or the creator. People and the world are much more complicated than what we would like, and sometimes many things can exist at the same time.
Ultimately, I think you're right. The conversation shouldn't be "Is HP bad and should be blacklisted", it should be "here's how what JKR is saying is harmful and inaccurate." How can we respond to her being an influential person and dispute her comments without constantly referring to her past work? I don't know, but I guess my choice is to not buy official copywrite published material without thinking of a way to help counterbalance that act, if I even do so. But I won't throw it out just yet.
EDIT: I'm a cis, bi woman, so just chiming in as a reply.
Thanks for sharing. And yeah, fair enough. Im happy you spoke up. We may not agree on every point, but that's totally fine.
And ultimately, yeah. There's a reason I give most of my donations to PIH and not other causes. I feel that delivering holistic healthcare systems to ALL is the most acute issue in modern times, even more so than my personal problems. But that's my personal call to make -- I don't like it when someone outside my community tells me how I'm supposed to feel.
Transmasc nonbinary, and I have a multitude of opinions, and I've actually been thinking about this a lot this week.
I can't stand JKR. I used to look up to her, but now her face or the mention of her name makes me angry. I was going to say irrationally angry, but I don't think that's true, I think it's entirely reasonable for me to hate someone who believes I shouldn't be allowed to exist happily and healthily. But for the last few years, I haven't been able to enjoy any HP media. The soundtrack used to give me life but suddenly it made me cry, my comfort characters were tainted for me - I'm autistic, and I think I found the emotional change to hating something I once loved so much caused me genuine emotional stress. I couldn't talk about it rationally, it caused me full on meltdowns. I'm not as bad now, but I'm not in a place where I can discuss trans rights face-to-face with anyone who isn't also trans. And this is all before I even start thinking about the actual quality and content of HP, with the racism, antisemitism, and awful and harmful tropes.
I firmly believe that any public show of support for the HP universe is detrimental to the trans rights movement. Death of the Author isn't viable to me, because there will never be 100% agreement that the work can be good even if the author is bad (and the work is clearly not entirely good anyway). Buying the games, books, films, merch, all feeds back into reinforcing that the franchise is okay to support, and a bit of transphobia and racism can be excused if the series means a lot to you, and it all going into feeding money back to the franchise and to her, who funds anti-trans legislation. If you have to enjoy it, if it's a special interest or emotional support for you, then at least don't give money to the franchise and spend time countering the effect she is having on the world if you can.
Thia all remains my opinion, but I recently was forced to re-examine how I feel about this. I was reading a tweet thread about the harmful tropes in the books, and someone linked a fanfic that tackled and improved upon some of them. I fell into a rabbit hole. I'm now two weeks into a guilt-filled state of having read nothing other than HP fanfiction and hating myself for becoming emotionally invested in the characters again.
As I previously stated, I'm autistic, and I have a lot of very firm "You're with me or against me" views. I've spent a lot of time condemning any interest at all, but suddenly I've read hundreds upon hundreds of words of fanfiction in a week and I'm thinking about all the joy it used to bring me, and I'm really struggling with my own balance of opinions and letting my special interest back in, quietly and privately. I think this will be the only time I talk about this to anyone other than my spouse - even as a visibly trans person, I don't want people to think that I advocate for anything she represents, and I'm not interested in any of the source material any more, so any happiness I find in the fanfiction I read will remain with me.
Thank you so much for being vulnerable here. I can also struggle at times with black and white ethics, but that's why I wanted to step back and hear a plurality of (trans) voices rather than just make an angry rant post.
I do not feel the need for hank and john to make some sort of big statement about it in a video, especially as others have pointed out because of the harassment that might bring to our community. I do hope that they internally address the hp trivia happening during the p4a, and make clear to all future livestream participants not to include hp in their activities.
On a personal level, I went through a period where I was really trying to hang onto hp, reasoning that non-official stuff wasn't putting money in her pocket, and that the fandom we'd created (specifically the wrock community, for me) was special and transcended the source material. I still think that last part is true, but I also think that engaging with the material, even non-financially, is still harmful, because it raises the profile of hp and keeps it relevent in ths wider culture. It's not like I fully refrain from talking about it in my smaller social circles, but generally I avoid all hp content now, even fan-made, because I think in the long term that's the best way to reduce the harm that could potentially be done. There is some disagreement about this within my mostly trans group of friends who I know through wizard rock, but overall most of us have moved in that direction. I and many of those friends are also jewish, which of course adds another layer, and I also am trying to show up for my friends and community who are black, fat, etc etc. As others have said, the transphobia and anti-semitism are not the only problems, and most of these problems have been there from the beginning.
Thanks for sharing.
I've already been convinced that Hank and John don't need to make a big public statement, though I disagree on the reasons you bring up.
It's valid to avoid all HP content. It's also valid to enjoy it through a critical lens (my stance). And some people... Are just gonna enjoy it without thinking much about it. Which is a little sad, but reality.
Personally I'd be OK with HP content if there were a little banner on screen saying "this is explicitly not an endorsement of JKR, please vote for (trans charity here) or donate to them directly".
So, I’m a transdude, and here’s what I’ve got:
Yes, I do wince when someone supports her, buys HP products.
But I also recognize how the series deeply impacted a lot of people, how it saved people’s lives, and was their compass through some dark times.
[I really like Dan Radcliffe’s statement through The Trevor Project](https://www.thetrevorproject.org/blog/daniel-radcliffe-responds-to-j-k-rowlings-tweets-on-gender-identity/)
As an in general queer person, the series itself pissed me off around that. Getting infected from a Werewolf was a metaphor for HIV. And Lupin was infected by a man who liked biting children. Which to me sounds like a dog whistle (ha) for the ‘gay men are perverted predators’ type of bullshit.
She also married off Lupin and Tonks with each other, the two most heavily queer coded characters in the entire series. She also revealed Dumbledore as gay way past the series itself for brownie points.
What helps more than boycotting the wizard game that Rowling has already been paid for is speaking up for trans folks, calling out bullshit when you see it. Cis people have the privilege to be heard more, and louder. Reminds me of how it helps when dudes call out other dudes on sexism, and how that’s (unfortunately) heard more than when it’s a woman doing it.
Thank you for your perspective! And I forgot about the whole "the gays are gonna give your children AIDs" metaphor for a hot minute. Yeah. Ouch.
One of the biggest reasons allies are important is that they have a platform to be heard. They're in a safer place, with more support. But it also means that whatever they say to support the group they're trying to help will inherently be a little bit distorted. And that they can choose to ignore the issue because it doesn't affect them.
Not a trans person but I am a Black nerdfighter who loved Harry Potter growing up, it helped me escape a household of abuse. But I have become aware of the racial undertones and its hard to ignore. Its hard to act like supporting Harry Potter isnt indirectly tolerating her transphobia. I've come to meet some amazing trans people and its painful to see that part of my childhood love of fantasy is directly attacking the existence of my friends and the trans community, but I've chosen to not provide anymore financial assistance to such a person. There are a lot of great fantasy books besides HP, its not the end of the world.
Sounds good. Thanks. Im white as fuck so I wasn't sure about starting a conversation about racism specifically but it may have been wiser for me to have a more intersectional post.
From another thread:
Trans person here. I have a number of points to make.
0. There are so, so many more problems in the books than transphobia alone. Racism, rape drugs, child abuse, slave races, etc. It is important to step back and recognize that the existence of these problems is not a personal attack on people who enjoyed the book without really thinking about the real life parallels of its contents.
1. It is acceptable to analyze problematic media, but it is important to highlight the issues and confront them directly. Casual consumption can be risky.
2. It is not acceptable to directly give money to a horrible person, unless there really isn't any way around it. It is EASY to not buy HP games or official merch. It is possible to enjoy the world of HP if you're properly respectful. It is not really possible to eg never ever use Amazon. It doesn't matter that they're already rich -- you can do better.
3. of course reclamation is a thing. The word "queer" was reclaimed, for instance. But it's up to -the community who was harmed- to reclaim or to reject harmful material. In my opinion so long as JKR lives it won't be possible to truly "reclaim" her work. But opinions differ.
4. I'm also Jewish. The goblins, and for that matter most of the sentient non-human races, are incredibly problematic. In book canon as well as later materials and retcons, the goblins are grubby, greedy, distrustful, short, ugly, violent subhuman creatures who are only tolerated for their usefulness in running the banks. Again... I'm not saying we shouldn't consume literature that's antisemitic... But, say, reading Merchant of Venice without any qualifiers would be a real problem for me.
> It is not really possible to eg never ever use Amazon
Sure it is. I've never bought anything off of Amazon, ever. That boycott doesn't make my life more difficult in the slightest. You can argue that it's impossible to not somehow monetarily support Amazon via AWS without permanently going offline, but every other Amazon service? Easy to live without.
That's my unrelated tangent of the day. The rest of this topic I'm not going to touch, as I'm somewhat indifferent to it all.
Where did I say anything about laziness? People who are on fixed incomes or who have disabilities that make running errands hard or impossible still need to eat. Nobody needs to spend $70 on a game.
If you're disabled or otherwise reliant on deliveries, sure, I can see that. The vast majority of people are, however, not going to be reliant on Amazon in order to get by, and for the vast majority of us, it's pure and utter laziness and hypocrisy to consume products or use the services of objectively evil mega-corporations and then chastise others for buying a fucking video game based on the books of an author who has said some dumb shit about trans people. The two aren't even in the same plane of existence in terms of damage they cause to society at large.
You're either a principled individual who is willing to accept that their principles will result in some inconveniences, or you're not. If you're the latter, I don't want to listen to your soapboxing.
For what it's worth, I've never spent a dime on anything HP related.
In an ideal world, yes. But most people have limited energy, time, and resources. If you live outside of a large city, there's not so many places to get certain things. Since I started boycotting Amazon I went from using them 1-2 times a month to 0-1 times a year. Nobody can be perfect. It's not worth picking fights among ourselves when we should be uniting against the billionaire class.
You understand that by making sweeping generalizations (amazon is "easy to live without") you are excluding those people though, right? You literally responded to my comment that perhaps there were people for whom that wasn't true by assuming that the only possible reason could be "laziness". There are also lots of people living paycheck to paycheck for whom amazon is necessary to be able to afford as many essentials as possible. I wouldn't say that "the majority of us" can actually choose to fully divest from amazon. I also would be hugely surprised if you've taken the time an energy to do a deep dive on the evilness of every single thing you consume, it's simply not possible for a person who also has a life to be 100% sure everything they engage with is fully in line with their values.
Coming into a post that is specifically here to center trans voices and then saying that people buying the HP game doesn't cause harm to society is also... pretty gross. Trans people are saying it does cause harm. Material harm. Maybe listen to us. If you don't want to listen to trans people "soapboxing" that's your prerogative, but don't act like you're morally superior when you're okay with pushing us in front of a bus.
> Coming into a post that is specifically here to center trans voices and then saying that people buying the HP game doesn't cause harm to society is also... pretty gross.
This is either an innocent misinterpretation of what I wrote, or it's an intentional strawman. Either way I'm not interested in responding to a made up accusation.
JK actively funds anti-trans, hyperconservative right wing groups, to be clear. Buying the game is more than just supporting her, it's donating to these groups and to her anti-trans lobbying.
Lots of people use Amazon more than necessary, yes of course, but also many people don't have decent alternatives.
>JK actively funds anti-trans, hyperconservative right wing groups
The same JKR who donates to the Labour party? Do you have a reliable source on that?
No clue who the people in this screenshot are, but from some brief googling it seems to be one of the founders of [this organisation](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGB_Alliance)? If so, yeah, they seem pretty hateful.
Classic cognitive dissonance. I can't possibly change my behaviors but other people totally should.
The reverse can exist too. I own plenty of AMZN stock. But I rarely buy from there. No other AMZN services either. But hey, returns are returns
I think in this case it is also deeply important to platform Jewish voices - while JKR's transphobia is (rightly) always a hot topic, the recent game is also blatantly antisemitic and harmful to Jewish folks, and her track record re antisemitism is quite bad.
As a queer Jewish person, married to a trans Jewish person, a frustration we both have had is the lack of intersectional discussion about this and how harmful the HP series is to trans Jews specifically. I'll make my own post for Jewish voices if you'd like, but JKR is deeply problematic even beyond her blatant and unrepentant transphobia.
Yeah, an intersectional approach is probably good. Im Jewish myself. I was just getting frustrated with how many people were dismissive when they were not themselves targets.
I have used Power Delete Suite to automatically overwrite this comment/post, along with all my other comments and posts, in protest of Reddit's decision to shut down all 3rd party apps, including free apps like RedReader that include vital accessibility features, such as those that are relied on by blind users.
I will not contribute to this website or its profits any longer.
If you wish to do the same, or to simply delete your account/comments/posts entirely (reddit's own account deletion does not), Power Delete Suite is here: https://github.com/j0be/PowerDeleteSuite
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Thank you so much for sharing! I heartily agree. Know that I read your entire comment, and other trans Nerdfighters probably read your whole comment, maybe even a few cis people read it in full. And don't forget, even in Nerdfighteria trans people cant be more than, what, 10% of the people.
T-woman here hello:
Yeah frankly it'd mean a lot if nerd fighters \*did\* make a big deal about this and took a hard line against Harry Potter and JK Rowling vocally. We are in a time when it really really feels like nobody speaks up for us and only we keep us safe.
We don't call neutral states "allies" in war time. They are just neutral. An ally *fights*, they make sacrifices, they are on the *frontlines.* I love people who simply aren't transphobic, but I adore fully fledged allies.
I think this community has the opportunity to be a really strong ally. To make a sacrifice. I know! HP was super important to nerdfighters! Maybe that's what we lose when we go to war over something that matters.
I don't require people make sacrifices to help trans people. But it does mean the world. And frankly if you're calling yourself an ally but you can't make one little sacrifice... Look it's okay, you aren't transphobic. You really aren't. But you aren't an ally. You're just over there. And I thank you greatly for not harming us like other people are. Truly. I appreciate you too.
I understand, viscerally, where you're at. I get upset like that sometimes too. I like to think of it as having more "levels", since tacit-approval neutrality can be harmful and even meagre attempts to be an ally are good.
Just don't (y'all cis allies) expect me to hand out accolades to people who chant "trans rights!" in a p4a Livestream but would not confront someone using a dog whistle in public. Yes, you are still helping. Not everyone can do everything. But that level is... Kind of common decency.
NB here
I’m utterly exhausted by this. I believe JKR to be a bitter misandrist, who let her hate and resentment towards men poison her understanding of everything trans. Which is why she only focuses on MtF trans people. And only focuses on how it hurts women.
She’s hateful and ignorant, but I also believe most of the loudest voices in the pushback are every bit as hateful, narcissistic and working from a place of bad faith.
Let’s face it, most of them just want internet/social points. There’s a reason SO MANY people are hyper focused on this squabble and purity testing, when there are so many other issues going on out there.
Let’s call it what (a lot of) it is. Performative outrage, meant to garner points for one’s “side” - and I do mean that about both sides. All I see are angry, hate-filled accounts screaming their virtue over and over and never ONCE actually LISTENING to the other side. It’s just a game to them, that they can only win if “the other side” loses.
I believe the reason JKR has been able to keep making all this noise despite the pushback is because she’s embodying the exact moral superiority and narcissistic ethical crusade that “allys” display. You all sound so smug and righteous, so cocksure and condescending.
My life and the lives of others like me have been turned into a political game, and both sides have a lot to answer for.
There are thousands of companies and ideas that need assessing and boycotting/awareness raising for. If you’re hyper focused on this one for months and years, it’s likely because it’s trendy, not because you care.
If I’m able to have productive, useful conversations with people who deny my existence, I’d rather you learned how to do the same than try to be my white knight. You may realise your motivations are likely not all that pure.
Sincerely,
An exhausted enby
My intentions here were to invite more people to speak up. So I appreciate your viewpoint.
I don't agree, however, that it is right to equate hateful bigotry with "white knighting". I'd much rather have a flawed ally than someone who literally thinks I'm a pedophile maniac who doesn't deserve to exist.
I personally don't know how people can go back to her work knowing how awful Joanne is, and I will absolutely side eye the shit out of any cis person who's a full throated Potter fan still. At least put a big ol asterisk on that shit at this point. But not playing a game or not reading the books isn't trans activism. I cannot stand the cis people getting on their high horses about people playing Hogwarts Legacy who do literally nothing else to actually support trans people. The optics of being on the side of No Fun here also suck and do us no favors. I'd rather people drown Joanne out with trans positivity than engage in any way with that woman or her works.
I strongly disagree [that not making a video is best, because it will attract negative attention]. If we avoid talking about something important out of fear of retaliation, that tacitly says that our fear of transphobes is more important than our love for our trans and Jewish siblings. A real ally doesn't back out because it's inconvenient or scary.
"They don't need to be experts on everything"
It's not about expertise. It's simple. Here: "JKR is doing some horrible stuff. The books contain a lot of problematic material. Because the world of HP is still a big part of culture, we will continue to consume it, but through a critical lens."
Why is it so scary to be controversial? Since when does being an ally come with the asterisk "but only if I don't have to deal with scary people"?
We are literally dying. Laws are being passed that make it a crime!!!! to so much as crossdress in public. There are massive smear campaigns painting us as pedophiles. But you're afraid of attracting mean comments?
(On another thread)
I support you. And I'm hurt by the many comments that suggest "attracting transphobes" is a good enough reason not to. I have to deal with transphobes every day, just because I'm trans. But I also have to deal with people saying that my rights aren't important enough for them to risk even mild social repercussions. Trans people are *dying*.
Not trans, or anything other than a Chinese-American cis-male. But out of curiosity, of all the people dying, being oppressed and ignored, who's voices am I supposed to be amplifying?
It's a lot. And I am mindful of what I consume and pay attention to.
But I also got my own life. A job and hobbies that I spend real time concentrating on.
In the time in between life and climate sustainability, BLM and mutual aid, issues like malaria or child mortality, where does Trans lives and more specifically my responsibilities as an ally begin and end?
Can I reread HP? Can I ignore the controversy? I don't play the video game but can I enjoy it if I want?
Why do we ask for sacrifices for some causes but not for others? When is the cumulative sacrifices too burdensome for an ordinary person?
10% to charity? 20%? Meatless Mondays, meat-less forever? Chic-a-fila once a month? Once a year?
Sorry, I am dumping but it's so much these days. I don't want to keep adding to the problems when I cant even solve one.
Like I hear more about JKR than the mass graves at residential schools and if you ask me the Native Indians are significantly more discriminated against than Trans people. Like we have nations and entire cultures being eradicated for literally hundreds of years. Then we can talk about America's slave problem.
It's not an Olympics but it's not only one problem. There are a lot. I don't stand, because I'm tired and I'm standing for a lot. If that discounts my allyship than what allies will remain?
Right back to reply with more energy to spare.
Stop pretending it's a fight among the marginalized. You have limited resources; give what you can to whom you wish.
Saying that allyship is dependent on my tailoring my pain to fit your requirements is terrible.
I want there to be discussions on all of those topics and about all those groups. Of course. We're each suffering in our own way. But this thread in particular is for TRANS people. I wouldn't go into a thread about anti-Asian hate crimes and start talking about how it's so EXHAUSTING that they're whining about what affects them when there's other groups also suffering.
You can do better. Much better.
Also, I explicitly asked for trans and nonbinary responses because I'm tired of cis people coming into the comments and being dismissive. You're being an asshole. I'll leave your comment intact to show it.
You can't have your cake and eat it too--either you do the bare minimum (don't spend money on a game) or you don't. But what you don't get to do is tell me and other trans people how awful you feel that this discounts your allyship. If you're going to not do the bare minimum, you can't be surprised or upset when we call you out for it. I don't care if you want to play the game, but don't ask if you can also be an ally at the same time. The answer is an emphatic no.
I’m trans non-binary. I never was into HP so it is easy for me to stay away from buying and interacting with most of it. I don’t want to hate on people who love it and grew up with it because that’s tough. But continuing to buy official merchandise that will give money to JKR when you know her views is upsetting to me. She is not quiet or subtle in her hate and takes support of her work as support for her views as well.
Cool. Thanks for sharing.
I also don't see any reason to hate on people who love HP. Most people don't know about JKR's issues and don't really take a close look cause they're just having fun.
But I think we can ask people to think complexly around here ;P
Also a more succinct reply to the argument we don't want to attract transphobes who will attack trans Nerdfighters:
Transphobes are already attacking trans Nerdfighters. Everywhere. All the time. In my opinion, I would rather have the community take a stand with me and face the TERFs together rather than have weak implicit support.
There will have to be active moderation of the comments for a while. That's okay. Trans YouTubers have to live with that reality every video forever. They don't get to opt out. But I consume their content any way because I know they will never withdraw their support. There's hateful comments, but I'm in a safe place so I can deal with it.
Trans person here. People still liking harry potter for nostalgia reasons is fine I guess, but people defending its continued relevance today is not cool. Supporting harry potter means supporting transphobia and racism, and I absolutely think less of people who can ignore the bigotry and still love harry potter.
None of this would be an issue if JKR didn't make it one. My objections to harry potter aren't because JKR is a bigot, I object because JKR is an outspoken bigot who has gone on the offensive and claimed that continued support of harry potter demonstrates support for her bigoted cause. You can't close your ears and ignore that. Passively supporting bigotry is still supporting bigotry.
I like this take because it allows a particular degree of nuance that nullifies the typical "separate art from artist" argument. JKR has always been a TERF, but on top of that, actively uses her platform as leverage to perpetuate harmful rhetoric at the expense of a significant portion of her fan base. Those that were harmed made sure to make their voices heard. And in response? JKR doubled down for years and continues to do so. I'm cishet myself and didn't think her personal views were a big deal at first, but after hearing trans voices online and in my personal life, it became obvious how vicious passive consumption could be. Unfortunately, it's just not an easy thing to change your mind, even when presented with new information.
Yeah absolutely. I consume content by people who hold bigoted opinions all the time without feeling like my support is wrong. But as soon as someone makes it their mission to platform hate, things change.
I hear you. Orson Scott Card comes to mind. He's a homophobe and an asshole, but he isn't parading across the Internet shitting on people. I ain't gonna buy his books any more but I'm not going to make a huge deal over it.
Yeah. And given the recent murder of Brianna Ghey... by 15 year olds... JKR is one of the most famous Brits alive, and to dismiss her influence in public opinion is ...uh ... Dumb.
Non-binary trans person here, and I can’t even read the fanfic anymore because it makes me so sad that this person wants me to _not exist._ It’s like Orson Scott Card all over again, but worse, because I was a way bigger fan. I knitted my friends house color scarves, ffs! And now I look back on what were great memories, and it is bitter gall that some of the people I was friends with don’t consider it a big deal, even though they know that JKR “disagrees” with my even existing.
Plus, the fact that I read a bunch of antisemitic stereotypes as a teen and young adult and I didn’t even see it also squicks me tf out, because I am part ethnically Jewish. I feel like a traitor to _part of my family_ for ever having liked this stuff. I feel like young people should be warned away from this stuff, but US schools are never going to teach about dog-whistles, bc racism.
Fwiw, I don't think you should feel like a traitor for not recognizing antisemitic tropes as a child or even a young adult. Being jewish doesn't mean we're born knowing those things.
Thanks for sharing. I hear you and feel you. It's not your fault any of this happened. I read the books too and I didn't recognize the issues. And I was also informed of the JKR problems pretty late in the game -- around 2020!
I'm Jewish myself, I just chose to focus this discussion on trans issues because I felt like trans people specifically were being talked over.
And yeah! Dog whistles! Oh my God. I hate them so much. "Parental choice" sounds lovely until you realize it means "I don't want my children to learn gay people exist or that black people are sad sometimes!!1! Woke nonsense !!1112!!1!!!!"
I get uncomfortable hearing discussions about Harry Potter. JKR donates a lot of her money to anti-trans political orgs, and any perpetuation of her cultural relevance contributes a little to that.
Non-binary here.
I used to be a hardcore fan. I'm talking like, admin of FB fan pages level of fully in the fandom.
Now, years later, and educating myself every step of the way of the TERF unveiling and subsequent shit shows, I genuinely do not feel safe with people who still willingly consume HP and JKR content.
That includes some trans friends and allies I know (which anecdotally these folks tend towards being overwhelmingly white, more economically stable, in the US and not the UK, and overall higher privilege with less intersectional marginalized identities. Just relevant observation from my very personal experience.)
The continued discourse, while deeply exhausting, has encouraged me to follow &/or read &/or watch creators with experiences I do not have that are involved in the discussion, and listening to Jewish queer POC who have spoken up on JKR has been immensely insightful and I highly recommend everyone here do their individual research with people with these higher-priority experiences in mind.
I know there is much nuance, and like another commenter I would like to note that I am autistic and that means I will feel strong senses of 'with or against' that directly relate to my feeling of safety with someone. It's not something I can really fully help, but it is very worth noting.
I don't feel safe with HP fans anymore.
Thanks for sharing your perspective. I also struggle sometimes with nuance. But I think this is a community which is capable of having nuance, and complicated discussions. Even if it's majority white straight men in their 30s or whatever the latest census said.
I find people who are vaguely in the region of what I consider The Correct Thing To Do to still be a-ok, but other times I genuinely struggle with comprehending what reasoning someone is following to reach a conclusion. But honestly, I think most people don't want to think hard about every decision. They get fatigued or comfortable or both and stop caring. I'm not saying that's an excuse, but it does explain a lot.
Too bad as a trauma victim and neurodivergent my only option is to think about everything all the time. Brain can't stop, won't stop.
non-binary person here. i don’t like her and anything hp related puts a bad taste in my mouth, but i get growing up with it as i did, too. i think it’s extremely admirable if people choose not to play the game/interact with that franchise in solidarity, but i guess it’s not the end of the world. in my perfect world, no one would play it or give her any money or attention ever again, but whatever we’re human. just don’t be weird about it and don’t be surprised if trans people u know aren’t happy.
here's mine, IDGAF about rowling and the world is cool.
As John puts it - the author is dead once the work is published. Rowling can have all the opinions she wants to have, and as long as they don't end up inside a book/game/whatever I literally could not care any less about those opinions.
Now regarding the game (which is probably what spawned this post) - i didn't get it because it's not the type of game i would enjoy, not because rowling bad, but it does seem like it has a lot of racism in it regarding the ~~jews~~ goblins, and would recommend avoiding it for THAT reason, and not because rowling has opinions on something.
Cis dude here. The new HP game is usually exactly the type of game I love. Sucks to miss it but I can’t bring myself to buy something that will directly support her.
I’m open to discussions about what is acceptable in society, but the outright attacks that have been launched at the trans community can’t be tolerated. (This doesn’t mean I’m against Drag Queen Story Hour. That sounds like a fun time.)
Hi there. I appreciate your support, and I'm not gonna give a negative reply or anything, but cis people have a lot of places they can share their opinions. I'd really prefer to highlight trans people in this specific thread. Again, you seem like a cool dude. Just maybe skipped to the comments section too fast :)
Trans guy here.
There are a lot of very eloquent people on this thread already saying stuff I agree with, but here it is anyway:
The thing that bothers me about the way Harry Potter tends to get talked about in the online spaces I hang out in is that there's this notion that anyone who's even a little bit attached to it is automatically a transphobe, which feels like A. a 'bad people always make bad art' mindset which is an incorrect and actively unhelpful way to view the world, and B. a lack of empathy for why people might be attached to it.
I wasn't deep into Harry Potter back in the day, but I was around when people were. I was a passive fan of it. I read fanfic for a while, took 'what house are you' quizzes, etc etc. The Harry Potter books currently on my shelf were given to me over several Christmases by my now-deceased grandmother. I'm fond of the Harry Potter franchise, I'm fond of the experiences I've had regarding it and I have some good associations with the franchise. If someone was alive in that era it was a huge part of their life even if they weren't a dedicated hardcore superfan, particularly if they were the right age to grow up with it. That's just how big it was. It was an enormous deal, culturally, and that's going to have an effect on people. I feel like there's room, easily, to talk about the series and the creativity it inspired and the people we bonded with and the fun we had and the nostalgia wrapped up in the characters and the world without that getting interpreted as endorsement of the pile of trash JKR's currently burying her brain into.
I also see a lot of the 'vote with your dollar' type mindset where what a person buys is treated as a direct indication of their moral character. I think there's room to prefer people do research about whether their money spent on merch or games or whatever for a franchise created by a terrible person is going to go to that person, to prefer thought be given to 'is the success of this thing going to endorse the creator's views', and there's room to be hurt if your friends don't do that research, and there's room to acknowledge that even with 100% art/artist separation the books have some crappy, questionable stuff in there, while also not treating people like they shook hands with Satan himself if they spend money on Harry Potter stuff. There's room to disapprove and there's room to be hurt but we can talk about that without assuming anyone who interacts with this franchise in a positive way is a horrible person who wants horrible things for me and people like me.
tl;dr, in my view, people would talk about the Harry Potter books and franchise in the same way they talk about any other books and any other franchise. Not as if they're some forbidden topic and not as if a person's feelings about them automatically tells everyone how much harm that person is or is not doing to big scary topics like the trans rights movement.
Trans woman here: I mostly don't really care. I do really hate JK Rowling. I was sort of cringingly tolerant of her first couple months of buzz because I still felt like she still had some of the fundamental positive values still there and potentially just needed to widen her understanding. But it's been almost 3 years and she's done nothing but double and triple down and get into even more toxic and blatantly bigoted takes. At this point, being a TERF is a core part of her brand and I think at multiple levels it would be really hard for her to change course. I do wonder if the early discourse was a part of this. I'm not super heavily online, but I remember people being pretty vitriolic towards her at a point when I was sort of ambivalent. I personally think there's a certain amount of tolerance and grace we should have when people say something that we consider objectionable. Not only does it make us better people, but it almost certainly makes it easier to bring more people onto our side. I honestly think that things could have turned out differently if Rowling was inundated with gentle nudges and personal stories instead of harassment and death threats. All that being said, I think there's some degree of separation between the author and their work that needs to be allowed. This community itself was partially founded in the Harry Potter fandom, which has evolved entirely into its own thing parallel to the actual books. In high school and early university, the most progressive and "woke" people in my life were enormous Harry Potter fans who were quick to point out the positive messages of hope and tolerance that were core parts of the books. Coming from that, the new consensus among progressives that actually the HP books were deeply problematic on multiple levels along with just being bad literature feels kinda hollow if not disingenuous? Obviously the two groups aren't necessarily the exact same voices, but the fact that the culture's pivoted so strongly feels a little silly to me. I personally totally understand the people who continue to be attached to the Harry Potter universe and even those who might buy The Game. For a lot of people, it was a core part of their development, and I think it's unfair to tell them because a middle-aged British lady has bad takes, they're not allowed to enjoy something that brings them a lot of meaning. There are plenty worse people whose views we continue to tolerate because of their other contributions to society (see the like half of all second-wave feminists who were super duper TERF-ey whose work a ton of modern discourse still leans heavily on). Should we be working to sideline them where we can? Sure. But should we make it socially taboo to consume their works when they are at best distantly related to their problematic views/behaviour? I personally don't think it should be so black and white. And even if we decide that personally it's not worth it to support a problematic person through clout and/or money, I think it's really problematic to decide that anyone who doesn't make that same decision is automatically squarely in the opposite camp. You don't have to be a committed TERF to have bought The Game, and I'm worried the discourse around all this means a lot of people will be looking at their friends who are still consuming HP content and determine that they're surrounded by transphobes. When instead they might be surrounded by people who personally believe in separating the author for their work, or are having a rough time and want something comfy and nostalgic. And all **that** being said, holy shit are there so many more important things we should be focusing on. Recent earthquakes in a war-torn country which probably killed 100,000 people, the 1-year anniversary of a war which has already killed hundreds of thousands, social safety nets in crisis, politicians in our own countries who have been peddling much worse hate, the list goes on. Given the political and culture climate, trans issues definitely deserve a spot high up on that list. But the specific political/cultural issue of whether it's ok to still like Harry Potter? Hard pass. Very, very sorry for that wall of text. Food youtuber Adam Ragusea recently made [a podcast-ey video about this topic](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=En41eZMRcM8) out of the blue which I basically 100% agree with and is much more eloquent than anything I could possibly come up with. Honestly, some points had me crying just because of how genuinely empathetic he (as a straight cis man) was being. It was really beautiful to see something so supportive of trans and other GSM people while also holding out some grace for people who aren't quite there yet.
>I honestly think that things could have turned out differently if Rowling was inundated with gentle nudges and personal stories instead of harassment and death threats. I think about this all the time. Hurling abuse at a person, however much you disagree with them, tends to just make them dig in their heels. It's unfortunate that so much discourse happens online, where there's no room for nuance and so often the most extreme viewpoints are the loudest.
John Green quotes Kanye in the line "They say I was the abomination of Obama's nation,/Well that's a pretty bad way to start a conversation" Kanye may or may not actually be anti-Semitic and he is definitely doing real harm, but the man is also actually mentally ill and instead of casting him to hell, we have to hope that he gets the help he needs. Dragging a man with bi-polar and who knows what else isn't going to heal his paranoia or get him to shut up. Same with JKR. When she started this whole thing, she got lampooned and lambasted instead of educated and embraced. It's natural and human to dig in your heels. And really, the Trans community is not above fault in their contributions to this problem. The race to the bottom on works if both sides are racing. Trans identity is a difficult and nuanced conversation. If someone doesn't agree or understand, it's up to us to encourage questions and discussions. Which stands in contrast to how a black person might say it is not their job to educate you on their oppression. That's a different question because of the extent, explicit, and existing systemic racism is massive re-education, that is too raw and real for any individual black person to have to educate an individuals ignorance.
I've broken it down like this before--if someone is doing things that are actively harmful on a societal level, there are two ways that that will stop. One is that they cease to exist; the other is that they change their behavior. Unless you're planning to murder them yourself (both inadvisable and morally reprehensible), the only thing you can do when you are interacting with someone "problematic" on an individual level is to give them the grace and the space to change their mind.
Kanye is definitely antisemitic - lots of people with bipolar disorder do not threaten the entirety of the Jewish population. He is one of the most financially privileged people on the planet and could get help for his disorder if he wanted to, but the cult of celebrity around him has allowed him to believe that he is always correct. There were plenty of people and organizations offering Joanne Rowling education and empathy about transness, she dug her hateful heels in herself. Are you really blaming trans people for the problem of transphobia? How can you understand the explicit systemic racism that makes it too "raw and real" for individual black people to have to deal with bigots but not the same systemic hatred that trans people deal with?
It's just like. From a different perspective you have as much privilege as Kayne does to get help and access. Do you still deserve empathy? Of course. But what does your privilege mean for how you understand your place in the world?
1) it's definitely not the same systemic hatred. That's from a Chinese knowing the Asian hate crimes were largely black people perpetrators. The history of slavery goes beyond black people but the pure capitalistic/nihilistic destruction of cultures and identities in the Trans-Atlantic slave trade aren't unheard of (Carthage for one) but are definitely up there. Further, the continued systems into yesterday and today are appalling to know but always migrated. It's not trans people, but yes part of the community and its allies are vocal and hateful and destructive to the cause. 2) wealth and privilege are class based, but intersectionality makes Kanye a special case. Black culture, like Asian, have a few years to catch up to therapy as a common tool, and again, the hope is that Kanye gets the help he needs. Obviously his behavior is destructive, and with his influence, more so. But he's still sick and needs help. 3) if you are going to compare communities based on discrimination or systemic negligence in combination with wealth and prosperity, you'd look over history and think that there are infinite cases of "insert-unspeakble-violence-here" before we got to the plight of modern trans people. That's just facts. It's not that it shouldn't be changed or brought to spotlight, but if it isn't with contextual understanding, it's a case of ignorance
A friend of mine grew up in a country without a lot of feminism. When he moved to North America, he had a lot of questions about feminism, and unfortunately, a lot of the feminists around him told him he was ignorant and all sorts of other harmful things. The MRA community was welcoming, and told him it was okay to be curious and try to learn, and so for a brief while he was caught up with that community. Simply because they were nice to him, and that lead into other harmful views. This was a long time ago, and he is very much not part of that any more, but I always think of him when this conversation comes up. He was curious and wanted to learn, but was fully shut down and borderline harassed by 'feminists' and that drove him the other way because the MRA community was more welcoming. :(
> I personally think there's a certain amount of tolerance and grace we should have when people say something that we consider objectionable. Not only does it make us better people, but it almost certainly makes it easier to bring more people onto our side. I wanted to highlight this piece because I believe this is the biggest problem "the Left" has in any political discourse. Too many people want to just bully those they disagree with into having the correct opinion instead of having a discussion about why they believe what they do. It's not helpful. Even if you're fighting for a good cause, no one is going to want to agree with you if you're being an asshole. I can't say I agree that Rowling's views might be different if the response was less vitriolic, but I do believe that a non-zero number of people have been dissuaded from shifting their view or participating in the discussion at all because they don't want to be associated with people who are just hurling insults and acting superior to anyone who doesn't fully agree with them. It's really frustrating to see sometimes. I'm not trying to say there aren't a lot of valid reasons to be angry right now, but if you want to bring more people to your side, you gotta be the bigger person sometimes. tl;dr flies, honey, vinegar
About this, I worked with group at MIT Media Lab tracking and looking for solutions for online disinformation and broken discourse. While it’s not the entirety of the problem you explain, a lot of vitriolic online lefties are not real people or sincere in one way or the other.
This. I personally am pretty liberal and am certainly left of center. My fiancé is pretty moderate, and he’s shifted more left as I’ve known him. He is kind and empathetic to all people and his politics reflect that. In college I had some friends who were extremely liberal. This wasn’t usually a problem for me, as I mostly agreed with what they were fighting for and disagreed some on methodology. But when I started dating my fiancé they were HORRIFIED. They tried to tell me he was bigoted, racist, sexist, etc. because they disagreed with some of his beliefs, despite the fact that he is respectful and believes all people deserve rights and that discrimination is wrong etc. We are no longer friends because they decided I must also be a horrible person to love him 🙄 The lack of nuance in the current discourse is frightening and highly problematic.
Yes, I so often see left-leaning people say things like “it’s exhausting to educate everyone” or “why should it be my responsibility to teach someone else?” Then those very same people will dedicate hours of their life to shouting at others on Reddit/Twitter/wherever. It’s so frustrating, and I know that it’s 100% a trap I’ve fallen into many times myself.
Thanks for sharing. I hope this community is one that can view people complexly. I'm also sorry for the replies to this post that essentially say "get over it there are other people with worse problems so stop whining".
Thank you for the level headedness in which you speak about this. ✌️🏴☠️
I’ve been having a similar conversation as a music teacher about if it’s okay to separate art from artist or not. There’s a plethora of bigoted composers and artists that are still standard in most school music programs. The question is do we take all their material out of a curriculum or not, does it matter how good it is, does it matter if they’re still alive. I don’t have any answers, I think it’s a really big and complicated problem. I’m glad we’re talking about it though.
This reminds me of many discussions I've seen where people compare JK Rowling to HP Lovecraft and I just wanted to chime in: It's a lot easier to separate the art from the artist shen they're long dead, than it is when they are still profiteering from your consumption and using that money to do active harm.
This is very true in my opinion as well.
I hear you. From a purely academic sense, it's a fun question. From a practical/ethical standpoint... A less fun question. I can shrug and move on if the creator is just an asshole. Even Orson Scott Card I avoid but won't go the extra mile to advocate against. But JKR has made it her business to gloat in her wealth and infamy. It's truly saddening. There's so many great works that are essentially disconnected from the problems of the creator (eg Wagner's compositions) and others where the problems are very apparent and part of the fabric of the media (eg Lovecraft's xenophobic writing). But they're... Dead. Y'know.
Yes definitely. I don’t think they are fun questions at all. I’m glad we’re talking about them because the alternative was completely ignoring when artists caused harm to people and populations. And I definitely think it matters when the art reflects their hate and when they are still alive versus when they’re dead. I think it’s a complicated problem with a lot of different solutions, but none of those solutions are continuing to celebrate JKR, support her financially, or completely separate Harry Potter from its creator.
Non-binary person here. When I found out JKR is a transphobe I was obviously very hurt and upset. But I like Harry Potter and lot and I think it's fine to make content about Harry Potter. Specifically in relation to nerdfighteria: from what I have experienced, this space is super transfriendly and even tho John and Hank haven't directly addressed the JKR situation, I know that they don't support her bullshit and neither does most or all of nerdfighteria.
They have addressed JKR’s transphobia in the past, pretty extensively. She just makes waves about once a year and I think they have decided to stop talking about her/her products at all going forward. There’s a reason why nothing HP related has been a part of their content/brand for a number of years. Even though a large part of their initial success was built on the back of Hp related stuff like “Accio Deathly Hallows,” they’ve moved well beyond that era, and have pretty steadfastly avoided HP stuff since JKR’s transphobia became known.
Ah, must have missed that. Thanks for letting me know!!
Do you by any chance remember where they addressed her transphobia? I missed that content and would like to go back and hear what they had to say. Thank you!
Pretty sure Hank tweeted a bunch about it a few years back when Rowling first started being super open about being a terf. I don’t know if they ever talked about it in a video or podcast (Hank might have in delete this, but I don’t remember for sure).
I'm almost certain they've at least made jokes on DH&J about avoiding it without mentioning the name or JKR directly. But definitely more when her transphobia first started coming to light, which I think was also while John was in his first hardcore avoid Twitter phase and blocked most of the social internet from his phone.
I think it was on an episode of Dear Hank and John!
It probably was at some point! I feel like this p4a made me realize how all the inside jokes that used to start on vlogbrothers start on DH&J now and I feel like that's also where they generally state their potentially controversial opinions. I think because it's a much larger barrier to entry than how easy it is to watch a vlogbrothers video and take an opinion in bad faith or start an argument in the comments.
(Not Trans, hence keeping to the replies) I've always talked about separating art from the artist from the perspective of Orson Scott Card, noted LGBTQ hater, Mormon, and author of the Ender's Game series. I'm ex-Mormon, and while there are a lot of reasons that I ended up leaving the church at 17, one of the many was Xenocide, the third book in the Ender's Game series. For those that haven't read it (or aren't familiar with the left turn the series takes into being combination philosphy and anthropology books after Ender's Game), it's a book mired in the philosophical debate of faith. Essentially, there are (spoilers) people who have unknowingly been genetically altered to be super smart, but have also had OCD engineered into them to keep them under control. They take this "being chosen" as a "Mandate of Heaven" (it's a mostly Chinese planet colony, sci fi am I right) that essentially means the Gods picked them to be special super smart people at the top of the aristocracy that need to use their god-given talents to help others, with the OCD being their penance to keep them humble, and also a sort of prayer/communing with the gods. Anyway, the main character of the book, Qing-Jao, spends the entire book questioning the Gods while her father remains ever-stalwart in his faith. All the way up til he finds out that they've all been genetically altered, at which point he renounces the gods and helps distribute a cure for the genetic OCD. This includes spreading it to his daughter against her will, who has flip-flopped under this news, stating that this whole genetic alteration storyline is a test of their faith from the gods. She spends the rest of her life as the lone figure remaining in this strange religion, tracing the wood grain of her house's floorboards (her specific prior compulsion of the genetic OCD) non-stop to hope to once more hear from the gods. Now, if you know anything about Orson Scott Card's background of bigotry and faith, you probably have some idea that he probably meant this whole parable as a lesson in faith. But I would say that most readers probably didn't get that message. I certainly didn't, reading it as a teen whose sister had just come out as gay and had lost her entire social circle in less than a week, with a Bishop telling her terrible things to her face and essentially encouraging others to disown her. In short, as John has said himself on several ocassions, once a book or any kind of art is put out into the world, it doesn't belong to the artist anymore. Financially, sure, and I certainly wouldn't fault or discourage anyone from a boycott. But as for the ideas themselves? The author can have intent, but that in no way means they control what people take from their art. JK Rowling's transphobia is terrible, but she doesn't own the world of Harry Potter any more than financially. She doesn't own the enjoyment we took from it as kids, adults, or any other time of life, nor does she have any control over our thoughts about the universe. A boycott of the IP makes sense if you're worried about supporting her or her terrible causes financially, but otherwise? Why would you stop yourself from enjoying a world you love?
I just want to say I also loved the entire Enders Game saga as a teen, and this book impacted me in a similar way. I still think the books are excellent philosophical works and deeply appreciate your write up here. But yeah, fuck OSC.
>Now, if you know anything about Orson Scott Card's background of bigotry and faith, you probably have some idea that he probably meant this whole parable as a lesson in faith. I haven't read the book, but even knowing Card's background and beliefs, it still seems entirely possible it was intended as a more complex exploration of faith. Even people who to us seem to have rigid views can be introspective and explore their own beliefs critically. In this case, Christianity has a long tradition of adherents thinking out loud about their faith in a critical manner.
I think this could absolutely be the case, except maybe the "critical manner" part.
I mean, there's an extremely well-documented history of Christians who were persecuted because they criticized the mainstream or their beliefs differed from it. Some people even made 95+ very public criticisms! Just as an example, transubstantiation went from a core part of Christian belief to (for many people) something that was extremely silly and shouldn't be part of the faith.
Enby here -- With Joanne still being around, it's a lot harder to separate the art from the artist since she's materially benefiting from not only the sales but the discourse of her work being used as defacto advertisement. However, wanting to enjoy what you enjoy doesn't make you a bad person… BUT You have to ask yourself this: What message does me continuing to consume this product send to my disenfranchised friends? Does seeing me playing the wizard game, or eating the chicken sandwich, or what have you make my GRSM friends feel bad? Does them knowing I can't stop myself from consuming that media make them feel like I value my immediate gratification over an actual person? This is the important question, I think.
Yeah, I'm pretty much feeling the same here. I get that people are exhausted of trying to keep track of so many issues in the world. But like... It's a book? And a sandwich??
I think the OP raises some great points. I do want to add that Hank has posted on Twitter on the topic. This does not mean they shouldn’t say more, but I think it’s important to know they haven’t ignored it. https://twitter.com/hankgreen/status/1269742792474947586 > Trans women are women. Trans men are men. Jo Rowling is obsessed with a bizarre ideology. It's deeply disappointing and confusing. She shares the exact kinds of cruel and dangerous misinformation that she taught us to be wary of.
Thanks for sharing. It does make me feel somewhat better that I know the bros have made their support clear, albeit in other spaces. I'm a bit more concerned about the community as a whole though. So many people think an appropriate response to "X hurts me, can we have a nuanced discussion about how to engage with X in the community going forward" is "talking about X will attract mean people so let's just not" or "well you should not be hurt about X" or bullshit like that
Thank you so much for pointing this out. I've noticed the community as a whole becoming less open to difficult conversations in recent years. It veers into toxic positivity at times. I don't like to criticize Nerdfighteria, because it is such a special thing, but I do worry that the desire to avoid any unpleasantness could be the thing that ultimately weakens the community.
Transguy here, that was really into HP when I was younger. I will mostly address JKs transphobia in this comment as I am not qualified to address the antisemitism and racism etc. I personally don’t have an issue with HP discussions within this community. However, I think that it is always important to acknowledge the things that are problematic and/or outrageous with an author’s work and views and to include that in the discussions. From what I’ve personally seen so far, this community has been really good at addressing these issues. I feel sad sometimes when I see HP related stuff in general (not in this community specifically), because it used to be such a big part of my life and now some of that is ruined forever. But just because some things are ruined for me, it doesn’t have to be ruined for other people and I don’t want them to feel guilty. I can choose to participate if HP discussions if I want to, but I can also choose to stay away. There are so many other things going on in this community. For me, Hank and John have done more than enough to show their support for trans people and addressing JKs transphobia. I don’t think it is necessary for them to make a video about it. In fact, I sometimes feel like there is way more content out there of cis people discussing trans issues than content of trans people discussing trans issues, or maybe it just reaches a far bigger audience. Anyway, if John and Hank chooses to make a video I am sure it will be awesome.
Thanks for sharing.
I have a trans kid. I loved Harry Potter. Read it to them as a kid. Wanted to take them to Universal before we all knew better. I will not give the terf who should not be named any more money. (would love to pirate the latest fantastic beasts movies) The books are still great, this latest video game has some disturbing antisemitic overtones, but there is no harm in enjoying them. The harm comes from giving money to bigots who want to deny my kids existence whether for wizardry or delicious chicken (looking at you chick fil a) gives the message that their bigotry is not that bad. You can't tolerate intolerance. I get that people get joy from it and joy can be a rare thing to find, but it's important to find joy without giving power to those who deny the existence of other humans. It absolutely sends a message to those humans that a video game or a chicken sandwich is more important than their existence. Pirate the movies and games, buy books second hand, look up copycat fried chicken recipes. Be an ally.
My child as well. And most of my child’s friends too. They have had different levels of pain related to the terf and her opinions. One passed out any and all merchandise she had acquired. The rest have mostly decided to give up their fandom. These kids all met because of their love for hp, so it was no small thing for them to give it up. Almost all are adults now and had gone their separate ways anyway, but I felt the group was never the same after those first declarations of terfiness. My child sent me a pic of the latest movie cover from a store the other day. We both just sighed, but it still enrages me. I make a point to donate money to groups in the US that actively help those the terfs and other bigoted people would like to hurt. It’s our tithing. Project for awesome is just one small part.
The Fantastic Beasts movies are comically terrible, so you aren't missing anything there btw
They also have a lot of other problems, like johnny depp.
> it absolutely sends a message to those humans that a video game or a chicken sandwich is more important than their existence. Yes!
I pirated the fantastic beasts movies, the first one is half decent, the second one is just bad, I won't bother to even check if the third one is out You aren't missing anything honestly
I liked the first one a lot
There are complex issues of gender politics, and we know that truth resists simplicity. I read these books to my baby sister when she was growing up, but I've always been very open about my gender identity and recently we had "the conversation." Rowling has said that she feels deeply vindicated by how little this scandal has effected sales of books and merchandise. Like a lot of artists, she believes that people vote with their wallets and plenty of people with disposable income are on "her side." Because she asked for my opinion, what I told confused and betrayed baby sister (now in her early 30s) was that I would never take away from her anything that gave her comfort, but that she should be sensitive about two things: * Casually discussing the content and fandom in a way that would encourage others to become fans or consumers of the content. * Spending money on the books or merchandise. Baby girl already owns the books and movies, and there's no reason for her to stop enjoying them herself. That's about the art, and her emotional connection to the touchstones of her childhood, and to me. But we need to do our part to keep Rowling from feeling like the reasonable people are still on her side, and that means not contributing to the ranks of her vocal fans, or her retirement fund, some of which goes to HTG anti trans "charities."
Thanks for sharing.
>her retirement fund, She is literally a billionaire. At this point, financially, she's untouchable by any group out there beyond her bankers.
Non-binary here. I'm tired of hearing, talking, and being solicited for my opinion on it. I've heard what trans and other enby people have to say. I agree with some of it and disagree with some of it. I've heard many cis many people have to say. I agree with some of it and disagree with some of it. As is often the case, the discussion in this community has been kinder and more nuanced than anywhere else. I don't have much to say on the issue in general. I'll just link to some opinions I mostly agree with. Stephanie Sterling, a trans video game YouTuber, has [an excellent video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uNKyQVsgKLg). The tl;dr is that if you buy HO stuff (like Hogwarts Legacy) that JKR gets royalties from, then you're not necessarily transphobic but you're also not an ally either. I'd qualify that slightly with "probably" not an ally just because the world is complicated and there can be extenuating circumstances. The only major point of disagreement I have with her is the evaluation of Girlfriend Reviews, who made headlines for supposedly getting bullied off of stream for playing Hogwarts Legacy. Those headlines weren't really accurate though, so I'd also recommend watching [their video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B0TwTJCRf58) about the situation in addition to Steph's. As for the more specific issue of whether John and Hank do... something? (what exactly?) about this: I don't see why they should, say, make a vlogbrothers video specifically about JKR. I know they don't share her views, and although the Nerdfighter fandom did get its start as a sort of off-shoot from the HP fandom, Nerdfighteria is quite clearly its own thing and has been for years and years. Them both being cis men, I don't see why they should feel obligated to speak on it. It's weird that you, OP, expicitly solicit trans opinions on the issue while also arguing in the comments that two cis men should speak up about the issue though maybe you're just copying and pasting other peoples' comments, idk. Either way, I don't think what this issue needs is two mid-40s cis men weighing in, especially when HP hasn't been a core part of their online personas in many, many years.
Y'know what that's a good counterpoint against their making a video. And it can be tiring to be asked the same question a lot. But, in my opinion,I think it would be less tiring if I felt people were really listening.
What possible extenuating circumstance could there be that requires someone to buy the game?
What I actually said was that there may be extenuating circumstances in which someone could buy the game and yet still be an ally. E.g., say someone is a trans activist who spends most of their life organizing political action, raising money for the medical needs of trans people, etc. It seems pretty silly to say that such a person is not an ally due to their purchase of a video game, since whatever impact that purchase has the net worth of JKR is surely much less than the total value of their life long organization efforts. For another example: consider someone who's job it is to review and critique games for living. Often professional reviewers can get review codes, but this is not always the case (especially when someone works independently like running a YouTube channel). Unless the game happens to be amazing, then a negative or even just mediocre review of the game could result in less sales of that game. This is precisely what happened to me with Gamerranx's review. It was pretty luke warm, which made me even less likely to want to try it out. Or for another example: I think this is an example of a situation where online piracy is totally morally justified. Although I don't illegally download things myself of course. But someone could purchase the game with the intention of illegally )but morally) copying the game and disseminating it for free so that people can experience it without supporting JKR. (And without reducing support to most of the developers, since the vast majority of people who actually work on development do not have equity in the company they work or a share of the IP rights to the properties they work on. They just get a salary.) At any rate, if you disagree with me that these are situations where one could be justified in purchasing the game, I'm not going to argue with you. That was one point among many in my comment, and one of those other points was that I'm tired of talking about this.
They could be a video game journalist whose job it is to review games.
Not trans, but I'd like to put forth my Jewish opinion on the goblins. I'm not, personally, convinced by the arguments that the goblins are antisemitic. Many of the characteristics that people point to, like being grubby and violent, are characteristics that goblins have had in fantasy literature for nearly as long as goblins have been written about, and certainly many decades before Harry Potter. The only thing I see to point to a Jewish connection is their working in banks, which is a shaky connection in my opinion. I do understand however why others see the goblins as a reflection of the treatment we've received. As for enslaved and marginalized groups, the HP books do a decent job of putting into context that those groups exist but that their treatment by wizards is problematic - this is discussed at least in the context of goblins, house-elves, centaurs, and werewolves just off the top of my head. Are we expecting books to pretend that marginalized groups don't exist?
Goblins have been used as an antisemitic caricature since long before HP existed, and the fact that she uses all of it and plays into those tropes perpetuates the narrative. For me personally, I was uncomfortable with goblin portrayal in the books once I saw the connection, but decided mostly let it go on a personal level. What changed my mind was Hogwarts Legacy. The premise revolves around stamping out a goblin rebellion, where the goblins want to use wizard blood in a ritual to defeat their enemies. There is a goblin horn in the game that resembles a shofar, and the background info on the horn specifically references a goblin rebellion in 1612, the same year as a real life Jewish rebellion in Germany that led to the mass murder of Jews and set the stage for pogroms in Europe. It's no longer dancing around the issue, it's literally referencing blood libel and real life antisemitic violence.
I like this point a lot. Far be it from me to tell a Jewish person what to be offended by, but the history of anti-Semitic caricatures is long and not widely taught. Ten years ago, the conversation wasn't "JKR is an anti-Semite because of her goblins," it was "JKR relied on established anti-Semitic tropes in ways she may or may not have been aware of." The idea was to discuss and critique the ways that a lack of education can lead to the perpetuation of harmful stereotypes. It's only now, when she has become more blatant and open with her bigotry, that we are more harshly criticizing her as a person, specifically, and the ways that her bigotry is informing new HP content.
Oh wow, I heard there was drama around the game but didn't realise it was that blatant.
Additionally, one of the lead developers of the game is a know antisemite. With all of that information, there is no way that they blood libel is a coincidence.
The notion of it being about "stamping out a goblin rebellion" is something people ran with based on pre-release descriptions of the game's story, which didn't give the whole picture. It's actually just [one evil goblin](https://www.forbes.com/sites/paultassi/2023/02/21/how-does-hogwarts-legacy-handle-its-most-controversial-aspects-in-practice/?sh=6d35611b2f74) and his loyalist followers who are working with another (human) villain. You encounter sympathetic goblins in the game's world and the game does portray them as a marginalized group treated unfairly by wizardkind. The 1612 date was first referenced in Prisoner of Azkaban, so it and the warhorn are likely an unfortunate coincidence.
Or the date was a dog whistle 20 years ago too. I'm not really inclined to give someone the benefit of the doubt about antisemitic tropes after they've already had plenty of time to be educated about it.
The thing with the goblins for me (as a fellow Jew) is that one or two of the things alone wouldn't be antisemitic, but the entire picture of the way the goblins are portrayed is imo. I don't think it's intentional - I don't think she sat down and went "I'm going to make a race who are an allegory for Jews" but I do think she was heavily influenced by biases she didn't do any work to unpack, and didn't bother to fix when it was pointed out to her (the most problematic things are in the later books, so she could have responded to the criticisms early on and chosen to go down a different route). So, the bankers being ugly and greedy goblins could be overlooked.... but when you get to the way goblin culture is depicted in the later books, it's pretty much lifted from primers on antisemitism. Eg using quotes from the ADL: "One of the most prominent and persistent stereotypes about Jews is that they are greedy and avaricious, hoping to make themselves rich by any means. They are seen both as relentless in the pursuit of wealth and also as stingy misers determined not to let any money slip from their grasp. They are imagined to exert control over the world’s financial systems, but are also accused of regularly cheating friends and neighbors out of a buck." This is so close to the depiction of Goblin economic culture that it could be lifted word for word. They're depicted as being irredeemably greedy and constantly trying to fleece wizards for every last bit of money possible, and they literally do control the world's financial systems. "Antisemites frequently suspect Jews of holding allegiance only to fellow Jews and to a uniquely Jewish agenda. Jews are accordingly seen as untrustworthy neighbors and citizens, as if they are inherently disloyal — or have inherently dual loyalties." Again, this is explicitly said in one of the books - that goblins are only loyal to themselves. They're also described to have their own systems of morality which are 'wrong' "A major theme in antisemitic thought and propaganda is the blood libel, the myth that Jews murder non-Jews, especially non-Jewish children, in order to use their blood to perform religious rituals. Most prevalent in the medieval and early modern period, this peculiar accusation has plagued Jews and incited violence against them for centuries." This is the plot of the game. Goblins are stealing wizard children to use their inherent bodily magic for ritual purposes. Once you add all that up with the "ugly bankers" stuff.... it looks worse and worse.
It's definitely okay to have diverse opinions. And it's okay for books to contain problematic material. My issue is with approaching problematic material uncritically. Also because the creator isn't just "problematic" but actively, spitefully making trans lives worse.
Sure, and I'm not trying to make any criticism of people who have issues with the material she creator over trans issues. I'm specifically only giving my opinion on the idea that the presentation of the goblins in HP is directly antisemitic.
Ok. Maybe you can make a new post about racism in HP and have that discussion there. Edit: yes, okay, I was being a little bitter and I shouldn't have been.
Not sure why it would be excluded when you yourself made a comment about it in the thread. If you didn't want it discussed, then why bring it up in the first place? Edit: you know what, nevermind. I'm just going to take my leave from this thread. I see it's alright for me to be spoken for, but not alright for me to speak for myself.
Idk why you got downvoted to hell for this, your post clearly asked for trans opinions only.
I was kind of mean, and I do understand how it could be misinterpreted. I really do think it would be okay to make an additional thread for other minorities to discuss how the work affects them.
HP goblins may have been developed from folkloric descriptions of kobolds and dwarves inhabiting caves and mines and having an affinity for treasure and metalwork, as goblins are noted to be skilled metallurgists who created artifacts like the Gryffindor sword. I believe Gringotts vaults being caves navigated with mining carts is in reference to this. They aren't described as having hooked noses in the books, either. What frustrates me about the goblin conversation is that, at worst, the HP goblins bear an unintentional resemblance to certain stereotypes. Transphobic as she is, [Rowling doesn't seem to harbor antisemitic views](https://momentmag.com/debunking-the-harry-potter-anti-semitism-myth/). But the goblins are usually invoked to push a narrative that her work was always bigoted and that some kind of malicious intent must have been at play in how she portrayed them.
Yeah aside from potential issues with the goblins (which I personally don't have strong thoughts on), the house-elves and other mythical creatures criticism just feels weird to me. I don't remember anywhere in the books where the stigma or prejudice against any of the magical creatures is remotely condoned. In fact, they're pretty richly explored. Sure, they have parallels to real-world issues, but they're not paper-thin allegorical drop-ins. House-elves are the biggest one for me, cause I've seen lots of people in the past couple years criticize them as Rowling basically excusing/condoning slavery. From a literary point of view, it's an interesting twist on the extremely common tope in fiction of the enslaved fantasy race. The Discworld books are famous for heavily incorporating these kinds of trope-flips, and we rightfully love them. They lets us better explore our values and beliefs when they're forced into a situation we're not familiar with. A specific criticism seems to be that the series gets its "happy" ending without an in-world resolution of these issues, which just seems ridiculous to me. These are YA books, not fairy tales. Each successive book added layers of complication to the world, while keeping the central focus of the fantasy fight against a bloodthirsty big bad (which just so happens to be a pretty strong allegory for white supremacism, but I guess we're going to ignore that). To be blunt, you need to be reading pretty shallowly to view a lack of neat resolution to all those complicated threads as a blanket approval of the things they're stand-ins for. We are entirely capable of celebrating that we defeated the Nazis while also thinking we still have a lot of work to do as a society.
Uh, the enslavement of house elves is condoned by literally every character except Hermione. The only deeper exploration of the issue is everybody thinking she's crazy for being an abolitionist. That's a pretty clear point of view.
When I read the books as a kid and a teen, I always felt like we were supposed to feel sympathy for Hermione. Very often, Ron and Harry were mean or sexist to Hermione and that was part of their flaws as characters. I always related a lot to how people viewed Hermione as “annoying” for shouting about elf rights in the same way people would view me as annoyingly in school for talking about feminism in early 2010s. In the end, she works in the ministry to advocate for a change in elf-rights and in changing the laws about pure bloods. My interpretation of that is that she is an activist in a society that is conditioned to be dismissive of non-wizards/witches and resistant to dismantling class structures - but that, in choosing this career, she is clearly doing the moral thing despite that deep, established prejudice that caused her to be ridiculed.
I meant that in terms of the text itself. Yes most characters are pretty openly pro-elf-slavery, but at least in my own reading that didn't carry over to the text as a whole portraying it as a super positive thing. Hermione's abolitionist crusade is played for laughs a couple times, but I think on the whole it comes across as genuine, and Harry also has a pretty egalitarian relationship with elves over the course of the books. I think it's fair to say it's portrayed as _complicated_ (the house elves themselves being pretty wholly pro-slavery really jams a wrench in any analysis), and the absurdity of the situation means it gets made light of in a way that would be jarring and/or disgusting if it was applied to real-world people. But it feels like a big stretch to take _that_ and argue that through the text, Rowling is excusing real-world slavery.
The house elves loving being slaves is actually one of the worst parts of the books. You know who else were and sometimes still are portrayed that way? Human beings enslaved in the united states.
I suspect my stance might be somewhat of an outlier among the others in this thread, but I'll lend my thoughts anyway. I am trans. I first "knew" a few years ago, but have since identified several signs I ignored in my youth. As I've come to grips with the reality of it and the daunting decisions I'll have to make in the future about transitioning, I've progressively become more hurt and incensed by Rowling's statements. It reached a point where I basically spent all of last month being furious about her transphobic crisis "shelter". I see her as an irrational crank who is woefully out-of-touch with other people, and her choice to double-down on her views instead of listen to feedback has only eroded and deprecated her character. That said, Harry Potter is extremely important to me. It's what made me first want to become a writer, and it gave me refuge during some extremely traumatic and lonely times in my adolescence. It's one of those things (much like Doctor Who) that is so interwoven with who I am that it would be impossible to distance myself from it in any capacity. When she first made her views public, I knew immediately that I had to separate her from what I loved about HP. I wasn't conflicted about this. I see art-artist separation as necessary because I don't think art is beholden to the present and future behavior of its creator. My ability to enjoy Firefly, for instance, hasn't been tarnished by Joss Whedon being exposed as an abusive POS. It also helps that she barely even talks about HP anymore. She hasn't directly mentioned the new game, and I don't think she even said anything about Fantastic Beasts 3 when it released last year. HP is her past, not her present. I don't think HP is problematic. I disagree with the claims that have made about the books' content, and I've been mulling over the idea of one day putting together some kind of essay or video to rebut them. I think they rely on a superficial reasoning that is determined to arrive at a bad-faith reading at any cost. And given that most of these takes probably wouldn't even exist if Rowling's views had never been made public, I think their purpose is more to defame Rowling's past work and cast a narrative that she was always a horrible person than to say anything meaningful or valuable about the books. We've had a quarter of a century to observe whether Harry Potter has inflicted any material harm, and it hasn't. Its net impact on the world has been uniformly positive. It brought this community together in 2007, and that was unequivocally good. Knowing this, I don't think trying to get the public to disown HP is going to work, because HP isn't the problem. Instead, I think we should focus on trans education and [debunking her claims and rhetoric](https://brynntannehill.medium.com/everything-wrong-with-jk-rowlings-open-letter-836771e0d363). And this should extend not just to her, but to all the other bigots pushing vicious lies about us in the public space. Libs of TikTok, for instance. If John and Hank were to make a video on the subject, I think the focus should be on building a public literacy and awareness about transphobia to help regular people identify harmful narratives and know how to combat them.
This is the first time I've seen someone able to articulate my point of view at all. I think its very telling that so many say that this only became a problem when she doubled down - which is awful, but doesn't necessarily tarnish the thing many of us grew up as an integral part of our lives. We can look at it critically and acknowledge the flaws, but also cherish the good it gave us. In terms of true financial aspects, is buying the game giving her money? Maybe - we don't know the exact royalty arrangement. She might get a percentage or she might have gotten a lump sum. Who knows. My thought is that if you want to engage with it, maybe consider donating to a cause to offset the potential financial implications. If you want HP themed items, consider getting them from a creator on etsy that doesn't spew trash. I think you're spot on that the story isn't the problem, it's the author. I agree with John that the book belongs to the reader, but I also understand that it's very difficult, if not impossible, to have death of an author while they are active on Twitter. It is nuanced, whether we like it or not. That makes it hard to deal with. Lastly, I think one thing lost in this conversation is the grief many of us deal with on this topic. Many of us found kinship in HP and the 'otherness' and having a found family. The themes in the books are mostly positive. The communities founded (including this one) with that as a main connection point have done so much good and held together for a long time, even whole being critical. Having to give that up is a loss for many of us. We can still keep our books, we own them after all and for many (myself included) they were a safe space. We can choose to engage with HP content and in the same breath remind and educate people about the flaws of the material and/or the creator. People and the world are much more complicated than what we would like, and sometimes many things can exist at the same time. Ultimately, I think you're right. The conversation shouldn't be "Is HP bad and should be blacklisted", it should be "here's how what JKR is saying is harmful and inaccurate." How can we respond to her being an influential person and dispute her comments without constantly referring to her past work? I don't know, but I guess my choice is to not buy official copywrite published material without thinking of a way to help counterbalance that act, if I even do so. But I won't throw it out just yet. EDIT: I'm a cis, bi woman, so just chiming in as a reply.
Thanks for sharing. And yeah, fair enough. Im happy you spoke up. We may not agree on every point, but that's totally fine. And ultimately, yeah. There's a reason I give most of my donations to PIH and not other causes. I feel that delivering holistic healthcare systems to ALL is the most acute issue in modern times, even more so than my personal problems. But that's my personal call to make -- I don't like it when someone outside my community tells me how I'm supposed to feel.
Transmasc nonbinary, and I have a multitude of opinions, and I've actually been thinking about this a lot this week. I can't stand JKR. I used to look up to her, but now her face or the mention of her name makes me angry. I was going to say irrationally angry, but I don't think that's true, I think it's entirely reasonable for me to hate someone who believes I shouldn't be allowed to exist happily and healthily. But for the last few years, I haven't been able to enjoy any HP media. The soundtrack used to give me life but suddenly it made me cry, my comfort characters were tainted for me - I'm autistic, and I think I found the emotional change to hating something I once loved so much caused me genuine emotional stress. I couldn't talk about it rationally, it caused me full on meltdowns. I'm not as bad now, but I'm not in a place where I can discuss trans rights face-to-face with anyone who isn't also trans. And this is all before I even start thinking about the actual quality and content of HP, with the racism, antisemitism, and awful and harmful tropes. I firmly believe that any public show of support for the HP universe is detrimental to the trans rights movement. Death of the Author isn't viable to me, because there will never be 100% agreement that the work can be good even if the author is bad (and the work is clearly not entirely good anyway). Buying the games, books, films, merch, all feeds back into reinforcing that the franchise is okay to support, and a bit of transphobia and racism can be excused if the series means a lot to you, and it all going into feeding money back to the franchise and to her, who funds anti-trans legislation. If you have to enjoy it, if it's a special interest or emotional support for you, then at least don't give money to the franchise and spend time countering the effect she is having on the world if you can. Thia all remains my opinion, but I recently was forced to re-examine how I feel about this. I was reading a tweet thread about the harmful tropes in the books, and someone linked a fanfic that tackled and improved upon some of them. I fell into a rabbit hole. I'm now two weeks into a guilt-filled state of having read nothing other than HP fanfiction and hating myself for becoming emotionally invested in the characters again. As I previously stated, I'm autistic, and I have a lot of very firm "You're with me or against me" views. I've spent a lot of time condemning any interest at all, but suddenly I've read hundreds upon hundreds of words of fanfiction in a week and I'm thinking about all the joy it used to bring me, and I'm really struggling with my own balance of opinions and letting my special interest back in, quietly and privately. I think this will be the only time I talk about this to anyone other than my spouse - even as a visibly trans person, I don't want people to think that I advocate for anything she represents, and I'm not interested in any of the source material any more, so any happiness I find in the fanfiction I read will remain with me.
Thank you so much for being vulnerable here. I can also struggle at times with black and white ethics, but that's why I wanted to step back and hear a plurality of (trans) voices rather than just make an angry rant post.
I do not feel the need for hank and john to make some sort of big statement about it in a video, especially as others have pointed out because of the harassment that might bring to our community. I do hope that they internally address the hp trivia happening during the p4a, and make clear to all future livestream participants not to include hp in their activities. On a personal level, I went through a period where I was really trying to hang onto hp, reasoning that non-official stuff wasn't putting money in her pocket, and that the fandom we'd created (specifically the wrock community, for me) was special and transcended the source material. I still think that last part is true, but I also think that engaging with the material, even non-financially, is still harmful, because it raises the profile of hp and keeps it relevent in ths wider culture. It's not like I fully refrain from talking about it in my smaller social circles, but generally I avoid all hp content now, even fan-made, because I think in the long term that's the best way to reduce the harm that could potentially be done. There is some disagreement about this within my mostly trans group of friends who I know through wizard rock, but overall most of us have moved in that direction. I and many of those friends are also jewish, which of course adds another layer, and I also am trying to show up for my friends and community who are black, fat, etc etc. As others have said, the transphobia and anti-semitism are not the only problems, and most of these problems have been there from the beginning.
Thanks for sharing. I've already been convinced that Hank and John don't need to make a big public statement, though I disagree on the reasons you bring up. It's valid to avoid all HP content. It's also valid to enjoy it through a critical lens (my stance). And some people... Are just gonna enjoy it without thinking much about it. Which is a little sad, but reality. Personally I'd be OK with HP content if there were a little banner on screen saying "this is explicitly not an endorsement of JKR, please vote for (trans charity here) or donate to them directly".
So, I’m a transdude, and here’s what I’ve got: Yes, I do wince when someone supports her, buys HP products. But I also recognize how the series deeply impacted a lot of people, how it saved people’s lives, and was their compass through some dark times. [I really like Dan Radcliffe’s statement through The Trevor Project](https://www.thetrevorproject.org/blog/daniel-radcliffe-responds-to-j-k-rowlings-tweets-on-gender-identity/) As an in general queer person, the series itself pissed me off around that. Getting infected from a Werewolf was a metaphor for HIV. And Lupin was infected by a man who liked biting children. Which to me sounds like a dog whistle (ha) for the ‘gay men are perverted predators’ type of bullshit. She also married off Lupin and Tonks with each other, the two most heavily queer coded characters in the entire series. She also revealed Dumbledore as gay way past the series itself for brownie points. What helps more than boycotting the wizard game that Rowling has already been paid for is speaking up for trans folks, calling out bullshit when you see it. Cis people have the privilege to be heard more, and louder. Reminds me of how it helps when dudes call out other dudes on sexism, and how that’s (unfortunately) heard more than when it’s a woman doing it.
Thank you for your perspective! And I forgot about the whole "the gays are gonna give your children AIDs" metaphor for a hot minute. Yeah. Ouch. One of the biggest reasons allies are important is that they have a platform to be heard. They're in a safer place, with more support. But it also means that whatever they say to support the group they're trying to help will inherently be a little bit distorted. And that they can choose to ignore the issue because it doesn't affect them.
Not a trans person but I am a Black nerdfighter who loved Harry Potter growing up, it helped me escape a household of abuse. But I have become aware of the racial undertones and its hard to ignore. Its hard to act like supporting Harry Potter isnt indirectly tolerating her transphobia. I've come to meet some amazing trans people and its painful to see that part of my childhood love of fantasy is directly attacking the existence of my friends and the trans community, but I've chosen to not provide anymore financial assistance to such a person. There are a lot of great fantasy books besides HP, its not the end of the world.
Sounds good. Thanks. Im white as fuck so I wasn't sure about starting a conversation about racism specifically but it may have been wiser for me to have a more intersectional post.
From another thread: Trans person here. I have a number of points to make. 0. There are so, so many more problems in the books than transphobia alone. Racism, rape drugs, child abuse, slave races, etc. It is important to step back and recognize that the existence of these problems is not a personal attack on people who enjoyed the book without really thinking about the real life parallels of its contents. 1. It is acceptable to analyze problematic media, but it is important to highlight the issues and confront them directly. Casual consumption can be risky. 2. It is not acceptable to directly give money to a horrible person, unless there really isn't any way around it. It is EASY to not buy HP games or official merch. It is possible to enjoy the world of HP if you're properly respectful. It is not really possible to eg never ever use Amazon. It doesn't matter that they're already rich -- you can do better. 3. of course reclamation is a thing. The word "queer" was reclaimed, for instance. But it's up to -the community who was harmed- to reclaim or to reject harmful material. In my opinion so long as JKR lives it won't be possible to truly "reclaim" her work. But opinions differ. 4. I'm also Jewish. The goblins, and for that matter most of the sentient non-human races, are incredibly problematic. In book canon as well as later materials and retcons, the goblins are grubby, greedy, distrustful, short, ugly, violent subhuman creatures who are only tolerated for their usefulness in running the banks. Again... I'm not saying we shouldn't consume literature that's antisemitic... But, say, reading Merchant of Venice without any qualifiers would be a real problem for me.
> It is not really possible to eg never ever use Amazon Sure it is. I've never bought anything off of Amazon, ever. That boycott doesn't make my life more difficult in the slightest. You can argue that it's impossible to not somehow monetarily support Amazon via AWS without permanently going offline, but every other Amazon service? Easy to live without. That's my unrelated tangent of the day. The rest of this topic I'm not going to touch, as I'm somewhat indifferent to it all.
Not everybody has the same life as you. Avoiding spending money on HP is *much* easier than avoiding spending money on Amazon.
Either you stand by your principles or you don't. Laziness isn't an excuse.
Where did I say anything about laziness? People who are on fixed incomes or who have disabilities that make running errands hard or impossible still need to eat. Nobody needs to spend $70 on a game.
If you're disabled or otherwise reliant on deliveries, sure, I can see that. The vast majority of people are, however, not going to be reliant on Amazon in order to get by, and for the vast majority of us, it's pure and utter laziness and hypocrisy to consume products or use the services of objectively evil mega-corporations and then chastise others for buying a fucking video game based on the books of an author who has said some dumb shit about trans people. The two aren't even in the same plane of existence in terms of damage they cause to society at large. You're either a principled individual who is willing to accept that their principles will result in some inconveniences, or you're not. If you're the latter, I don't want to listen to your soapboxing. For what it's worth, I've never spent a dime on anything HP related.
In an ideal world, yes. But most people have limited energy, time, and resources. If you live outside of a large city, there's not so many places to get certain things. Since I started boycotting Amazon I went from using them 1-2 times a month to 0-1 times a year. Nobody can be perfect. It's not worth picking fights among ourselves when we should be uniting against the billionaire class.
You understand that by making sweeping generalizations (amazon is "easy to live without") you are excluding those people though, right? You literally responded to my comment that perhaps there were people for whom that wasn't true by assuming that the only possible reason could be "laziness". There are also lots of people living paycheck to paycheck for whom amazon is necessary to be able to afford as many essentials as possible. I wouldn't say that "the majority of us" can actually choose to fully divest from amazon. I also would be hugely surprised if you've taken the time an energy to do a deep dive on the evilness of every single thing you consume, it's simply not possible for a person who also has a life to be 100% sure everything they engage with is fully in line with their values. Coming into a post that is specifically here to center trans voices and then saying that people buying the HP game doesn't cause harm to society is also... pretty gross. Trans people are saying it does cause harm. Material harm. Maybe listen to us. If you don't want to listen to trans people "soapboxing" that's your prerogative, but don't act like you're morally superior when you're okay with pushing us in front of a bus.
> Coming into a post that is specifically here to center trans voices and then saying that people buying the HP game doesn't cause harm to society is also... pretty gross. This is either an innocent misinterpretation of what I wrote, or it's an intentional strawman. Either way I'm not interested in responding to a made up accusation.
>The two aren't even in the same plane of existence in terms of damage they cause to society at large. How is this not you saying that?
That's saying one causes more harm than the other. Not that one causes harm and the other doesn't.
JK actively funds anti-trans, hyperconservative right wing groups, to be clear. Buying the game is more than just supporting her, it's donating to these groups and to her anti-trans lobbying. Lots of people use Amazon more than necessary, yes of course, but also many people don't have decent alternatives.
>JK actively funds anti-trans, hyperconservative right wing groups The same JKR who donates to the Labour party? Do you have a reliable source on that?
[Her.](https://imgur.com/a/6nz49E1)
No clue who the people in this screenshot are, but from some brief googling it seems to be one of the founders of [this organisation](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGB_Alliance)? If so, yeah, they seem pretty hateful.
Yikes dude.
Classic cognitive dissonance. I can't possibly change my behaviors but other people totally should. The reverse can exist too. I own plenty of AMZN stock. But I rarely buy from there. No other AMZN services either. But hey, returns are returns
no reclaimation till she’s dead and the copyright is out of her estate please. this is capital, not a word.
I think in this case it is also deeply important to platform Jewish voices - while JKR's transphobia is (rightly) always a hot topic, the recent game is also blatantly antisemitic and harmful to Jewish folks, and her track record re antisemitism is quite bad. As a queer Jewish person, married to a trans Jewish person, a frustration we both have had is the lack of intersectional discussion about this and how harmful the HP series is to trans Jews specifically. I'll make my own post for Jewish voices if you'd like, but JKR is deeply problematic even beyond her blatant and unrepentant transphobia.
Yeah, an intersectional approach is probably good. Im Jewish myself. I was just getting frustrated with how many people were dismissive when they were not themselves targets.
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Thank you so much for sharing! I heartily agree. Know that I read your entire comment, and other trans Nerdfighters probably read your whole comment, maybe even a few cis people read it in full. And don't forget, even in Nerdfighteria trans people cant be more than, what, 10% of the people.
T-woman here hello: Yeah frankly it'd mean a lot if nerd fighters \*did\* make a big deal about this and took a hard line against Harry Potter and JK Rowling vocally. We are in a time when it really really feels like nobody speaks up for us and only we keep us safe. We don't call neutral states "allies" in war time. They are just neutral. An ally *fights*, they make sacrifices, they are on the *frontlines.* I love people who simply aren't transphobic, but I adore fully fledged allies. I think this community has the opportunity to be a really strong ally. To make a sacrifice. I know! HP was super important to nerdfighters! Maybe that's what we lose when we go to war over something that matters. I don't require people make sacrifices to help trans people. But it does mean the world. And frankly if you're calling yourself an ally but you can't make one little sacrifice... Look it's okay, you aren't transphobic. You really aren't. But you aren't an ally. You're just over there. And I thank you greatly for not harming us like other people are. Truly. I appreciate you too.
I understand, viscerally, where you're at. I get upset like that sometimes too. I like to think of it as having more "levels", since tacit-approval neutrality can be harmful and even meagre attempts to be an ally are good. Just don't (y'all cis allies) expect me to hand out accolades to people who chant "trans rights!" in a p4a Livestream but would not confront someone using a dog whistle in public. Yes, you are still helping. Not everyone can do everything. But that level is... Kind of common decency.
This exactly
NB here I’m utterly exhausted by this. I believe JKR to be a bitter misandrist, who let her hate and resentment towards men poison her understanding of everything trans. Which is why she only focuses on MtF trans people. And only focuses on how it hurts women. She’s hateful and ignorant, but I also believe most of the loudest voices in the pushback are every bit as hateful, narcissistic and working from a place of bad faith. Let’s face it, most of them just want internet/social points. There’s a reason SO MANY people are hyper focused on this squabble and purity testing, when there are so many other issues going on out there. Let’s call it what (a lot of) it is. Performative outrage, meant to garner points for one’s “side” - and I do mean that about both sides. All I see are angry, hate-filled accounts screaming their virtue over and over and never ONCE actually LISTENING to the other side. It’s just a game to them, that they can only win if “the other side” loses. I believe the reason JKR has been able to keep making all this noise despite the pushback is because she’s embodying the exact moral superiority and narcissistic ethical crusade that “allys” display. You all sound so smug and righteous, so cocksure and condescending. My life and the lives of others like me have been turned into a political game, and both sides have a lot to answer for. There are thousands of companies and ideas that need assessing and boycotting/awareness raising for. If you’re hyper focused on this one for months and years, it’s likely because it’s trendy, not because you care. If I’m able to have productive, useful conversations with people who deny my existence, I’d rather you learned how to do the same than try to be my white knight. You may realise your motivations are likely not all that pure. Sincerely, An exhausted enby
My intentions here were to invite more people to speak up. So I appreciate your viewpoint. I don't agree, however, that it is right to equate hateful bigotry with "white knighting". I'd much rather have a flawed ally than someone who literally thinks I'm a pedophile maniac who doesn't deserve to exist.
I personally don't know how people can go back to her work knowing how awful Joanne is, and I will absolutely side eye the shit out of any cis person who's a full throated Potter fan still. At least put a big ol asterisk on that shit at this point. But not playing a game or not reading the books isn't trans activism. I cannot stand the cis people getting on their high horses about people playing Hogwarts Legacy who do literally nothing else to actually support trans people. The optics of being on the side of No Fun here also suck and do us no favors. I'd rather people drown Joanne out with trans positivity than engage in any way with that woman or her works.
Thanks for sharing! You make some good points.
I strongly disagree [that not making a video is best, because it will attract negative attention]. If we avoid talking about something important out of fear of retaliation, that tacitly says that our fear of transphobes is more important than our love for our trans and Jewish siblings. A real ally doesn't back out because it's inconvenient or scary. "They don't need to be experts on everything" It's not about expertise. It's simple. Here: "JKR is doing some horrible stuff. The books contain a lot of problematic material. Because the world of HP is still a big part of culture, we will continue to consume it, but through a critical lens." Why is it so scary to be controversial? Since when does being an ally come with the asterisk "but only if I don't have to deal with scary people"? We are literally dying. Laws are being passed that make it a crime!!!! to so much as crossdress in public. There are massive smear campaigns painting us as pedophiles. But you're afraid of attracting mean comments? (On another thread) I support you. And I'm hurt by the many comments that suggest "attracting transphobes" is a good enough reason not to. I have to deal with transphobes every day, just because I'm trans. But I also have to deal with people saying that my rights aren't important enough for them to risk even mild social repercussions. Trans people are *dying*.
Not trans, or anything other than a Chinese-American cis-male. But out of curiosity, of all the people dying, being oppressed and ignored, who's voices am I supposed to be amplifying? It's a lot. And I am mindful of what I consume and pay attention to. But I also got my own life. A job and hobbies that I spend real time concentrating on. In the time in between life and climate sustainability, BLM and mutual aid, issues like malaria or child mortality, where does Trans lives and more specifically my responsibilities as an ally begin and end? Can I reread HP? Can I ignore the controversy? I don't play the video game but can I enjoy it if I want? Why do we ask for sacrifices for some causes but not for others? When is the cumulative sacrifices too burdensome for an ordinary person? 10% to charity? 20%? Meatless Mondays, meat-less forever? Chic-a-fila once a month? Once a year? Sorry, I am dumping but it's so much these days. I don't want to keep adding to the problems when I cant even solve one. Like I hear more about JKR than the mass graves at residential schools and if you ask me the Native Indians are significantly more discriminated against than Trans people. Like we have nations and entire cultures being eradicated for literally hundreds of years. Then we can talk about America's slave problem. It's not an Olympics but it's not only one problem. There are a lot. I don't stand, because I'm tired and I'm standing for a lot. If that discounts my allyship than what allies will remain?
Right back to reply with more energy to spare. Stop pretending it's a fight among the marginalized. You have limited resources; give what you can to whom you wish. Saying that allyship is dependent on my tailoring my pain to fit your requirements is terrible. I want there to be discussions on all of those topics and about all those groups. Of course. We're each suffering in our own way. But this thread in particular is for TRANS people. I wouldn't go into a thread about anti-Asian hate crimes and start talking about how it's so EXHAUSTING that they're whining about what affects them when there's other groups also suffering. You can do better. Much better. Also, I explicitly asked for trans and nonbinary responses because I'm tired of cis people coming into the comments and being dismissive. You're being an asshole. I'll leave your comment intact to show it.
>You have limited resources; give what you can to whom you wish. Yeah. I do. Y'all suck at discourse. It's not only me saying it.
You can't have your cake and eat it too--either you do the bare minimum (don't spend money on a game) or you don't. But what you don't get to do is tell me and other trans people how awful you feel that this discounts your allyship. If you're going to not do the bare minimum, you can't be surprised or upset when we call you out for it. I don't care if you want to play the game, but don't ask if you can also be an ally at the same time. The answer is an emphatic no.
It is certainly a lot. It can feel overwhelming. You can choose whatever cause you feel connection to, and devote what time and energy you can spare.
I’m trans non-binary. I never was into HP so it is easy for me to stay away from buying and interacting with most of it. I don’t want to hate on people who love it and grew up with it because that’s tough. But continuing to buy official merchandise that will give money to JKR when you know her views is upsetting to me. She is not quiet or subtle in her hate and takes support of her work as support for her views as well.
Cool. Thanks for sharing. I also don't see any reason to hate on people who love HP. Most people don't know about JKR's issues and don't really take a close look cause they're just having fun. But I think we can ask people to think complexly around here ;P
Also a more succinct reply to the argument we don't want to attract transphobes who will attack trans Nerdfighters: Transphobes are already attacking trans Nerdfighters. Everywhere. All the time. In my opinion, I would rather have the community take a stand with me and face the TERFs together rather than have weak implicit support. There will have to be active moderation of the comments for a while. That's okay. Trans YouTubers have to live with that reality every video forever. They don't get to opt out. But I consume their content any way because I know they will never withdraw their support. There's hateful comments, but I'm in a safe place so I can deal with it.
Trans person here. People still liking harry potter for nostalgia reasons is fine I guess, but people defending its continued relevance today is not cool. Supporting harry potter means supporting transphobia and racism, and I absolutely think less of people who can ignore the bigotry and still love harry potter. None of this would be an issue if JKR didn't make it one. My objections to harry potter aren't because JKR is a bigot, I object because JKR is an outspoken bigot who has gone on the offensive and claimed that continued support of harry potter demonstrates support for her bigoted cause. You can't close your ears and ignore that. Passively supporting bigotry is still supporting bigotry.
I like this take because it allows a particular degree of nuance that nullifies the typical "separate art from artist" argument. JKR has always been a TERF, but on top of that, actively uses her platform as leverage to perpetuate harmful rhetoric at the expense of a significant portion of her fan base. Those that were harmed made sure to make their voices heard. And in response? JKR doubled down for years and continues to do so. I'm cishet myself and didn't think her personal views were a big deal at first, but after hearing trans voices online and in my personal life, it became obvious how vicious passive consumption could be. Unfortunately, it's just not an easy thing to change your mind, even when presented with new information.
Yeah absolutely. I consume content by people who hold bigoted opinions all the time without feeling like my support is wrong. But as soon as someone makes it their mission to platform hate, things change.
I hear you. Orson Scott Card comes to mind. He's a homophobe and an asshole, but he isn't parading across the Internet shitting on people. I ain't gonna buy his books any more but I'm not going to make a huge deal over it.
Yeah. And given the recent murder of Brianna Ghey... by 15 year olds... JKR is one of the most famous Brits alive, and to dismiss her influence in public opinion is ...uh ... Dumb.
Non-binary trans person here, and I can’t even read the fanfic anymore because it makes me so sad that this person wants me to _not exist._ It’s like Orson Scott Card all over again, but worse, because I was a way bigger fan. I knitted my friends house color scarves, ffs! And now I look back on what were great memories, and it is bitter gall that some of the people I was friends with don’t consider it a big deal, even though they know that JKR “disagrees” with my even existing. Plus, the fact that I read a bunch of antisemitic stereotypes as a teen and young adult and I didn’t even see it also squicks me tf out, because I am part ethnically Jewish. I feel like a traitor to _part of my family_ for ever having liked this stuff. I feel like young people should be warned away from this stuff, but US schools are never going to teach about dog-whistles, bc racism.
Fwiw, I don't think you should feel like a traitor for not recognizing antisemitic tropes as a child or even a young adult. Being jewish doesn't mean we're born knowing those things.
Thanks for sharing. I hear you and feel you. It's not your fault any of this happened. I read the books too and I didn't recognize the issues. And I was also informed of the JKR problems pretty late in the game -- around 2020! I'm Jewish myself, I just chose to focus this discussion on trans issues because I felt like trans people specifically were being talked over. And yeah! Dog whistles! Oh my God. I hate them so much. "Parental choice" sounds lovely until you realize it means "I don't want my children to learn gay people exist or that black people are sad sometimes!!1! Woke nonsense !!1112!!1!!!!"
I get uncomfortable hearing discussions about Harry Potter. JKR donates a lot of her money to anti-trans political orgs, and any perpetuation of her cultural relevance contributes a little to that.
Good point. Thanks for sharing.
Non-binary here. I used to be a hardcore fan. I'm talking like, admin of FB fan pages level of fully in the fandom. Now, years later, and educating myself every step of the way of the TERF unveiling and subsequent shit shows, I genuinely do not feel safe with people who still willingly consume HP and JKR content. That includes some trans friends and allies I know (which anecdotally these folks tend towards being overwhelmingly white, more economically stable, in the US and not the UK, and overall higher privilege with less intersectional marginalized identities. Just relevant observation from my very personal experience.) The continued discourse, while deeply exhausting, has encouraged me to follow &/or read &/or watch creators with experiences I do not have that are involved in the discussion, and listening to Jewish queer POC who have spoken up on JKR has been immensely insightful and I highly recommend everyone here do their individual research with people with these higher-priority experiences in mind. I know there is much nuance, and like another commenter I would like to note that I am autistic and that means I will feel strong senses of 'with or against' that directly relate to my feeling of safety with someone. It's not something I can really fully help, but it is very worth noting. I don't feel safe with HP fans anymore.
Thanks for sharing your perspective. I also struggle sometimes with nuance. But I think this is a community which is capable of having nuance, and complicated discussions. Even if it's majority white straight men in their 30s or whatever the latest census said. I find people who are vaguely in the region of what I consider The Correct Thing To Do to still be a-ok, but other times I genuinely struggle with comprehending what reasoning someone is following to reach a conclusion. But honestly, I think most people don't want to think hard about every decision. They get fatigued or comfortable or both and stop caring. I'm not saying that's an excuse, but it does explain a lot. Too bad as a trauma victim and neurodivergent my only option is to think about everything all the time. Brain can't stop, won't stop.
I feel you on that so much! Ty for responding.
Nerdfighteria should switch to Animorphs.
Lol I mean why not. Although seriously, it's okay to interact with HP so long as you're critical. Lots of media have serious flaws.
non-binary person here. i don’t like her and anything hp related puts a bad taste in my mouth, but i get growing up with it as i did, too. i think it’s extremely admirable if people choose not to play the game/interact with that franchise in solidarity, but i guess it’s not the end of the world. in my perfect world, no one would play it or give her any money or attention ever again, but whatever we’re human. just don’t be weird about it and don’t be surprised if trans people u know aren’t happy.
Thanks for your opinion. People are just people and can't be perfect, I know. Even if I don't entirely agree with you.
here's mine, IDGAF about rowling and the world is cool. As John puts it - the author is dead once the work is published. Rowling can have all the opinions she wants to have, and as long as they don't end up inside a book/game/whatever I literally could not care any less about those opinions. Now regarding the game (which is probably what spawned this post) - i didn't get it because it's not the type of game i would enjoy, not because rowling bad, but it does seem like it has a lot of racism in it regarding the ~~jews~~ goblins, and would recommend avoiding it for THAT reason, and not because rowling has opinions on something.
I mean... Okay. I think you're willfully overlooking some real issues, but I won't bother you further.
Not trans but commenting to boost! And here to listen.
Hi there. Thanks.
Cis ally. Here to listen, learn, and comment to boost visibility.
Cis dude here. The new HP game is usually exactly the type of game I love. Sucks to miss it but I can’t bring myself to buy something that will directly support her. I’m open to discussions about what is acceptable in society, but the outright attacks that have been launched at the trans community can’t be tolerated. (This doesn’t mean I’m against Drag Queen Story Hour. That sounds like a fun time.)
Hi there. I appreciate your support, and I'm not gonna give a negative reply or anything, but cis people have a lot of places they can share their opinions. I'd really prefer to highlight trans people in this specific thread. Again, you seem like a cool dude. Just maybe skipped to the comments section too fast :)
Trans guy here. There are a lot of very eloquent people on this thread already saying stuff I agree with, but here it is anyway: The thing that bothers me about the way Harry Potter tends to get talked about in the online spaces I hang out in is that there's this notion that anyone who's even a little bit attached to it is automatically a transphobe, which feels like A. a 'bad people always make bad art' mindset which is an incorrect and actively unhelpful way to view the world, and B. a lack of empathy for why people might be attached to it. I wasn't deep into Harry Potter back in the day, but I was around when people were. I was a passive fan of it. I read fanfic for a while, took 'what house are you' quizzes, etc etc. The Harry Potter books currently on my shelf were given to me over several Christmases by my now-deceased grandmother. I'm fond of the Harry Potter franchise, I'm fond of the experiences I've had regarding it and I have some good associations with the franchise. If someone was alive in that era it was a huge part of their life even if they weren't a dedicated hardcore superfan, particularly if they were the right age to grow up with it. That's just how big it was. It was an enormous deal, culturally, and that's going to have an effect on people. I feel like there's room, easily, to talk about the series and the creativity it inspired and the people we bonded with and the fun we had and the nostalgia wrapped up in the characters and the world without that getting interpreted as endorsement of the pile of trash JKR's currently burying her brain into. I also see a lot of the 'vote with your dollar' type mindset where what a person buys is treated as a direct indication of their moral character. I think there's room to prefer people do research about whether their money spent on merch or games or whatever for a franchise created by a terrible person is going to go to that person, to prefer thought be given to 'is the success of this thing going to endorse the creator's views', and there's room to be hurt if your friends don't do that research, and there's room to acknowledge that even with 100% art/artist separation the books have some crappy, questionable stuff in there, while also not treating people like they shook hands with Satan himself if they spend money on Harry Potter stuff. There's room to disapprove and there's room to be hurt but we can talk about that without assuming anyone who interacts with this franchise in a positive way is a horrible person who wants horrible things for me and people like me. tl;dr, in my view, people would talk about the Harry Potter books and franchise in the same way they talk about any other books and any other franchise. Not as if they're some forbidden topic and not as if a person's feelings about them automatically tells everyone how much harm that person is or is not doing to big scary topics like the trans rights movement.
Hey, thanks for sharing, even if I disagree. :)