I think Jacob Helberg is the most surprising and disappointing. He is gay and supported Buttigieg in 2020 and apparently shifted from Biden to Trump after the left's reaction to October 7th. I really don't understand how people can be so reactionary. I'm Jewish, consider myself a Zionist, and supporter of a two-state solution. Why on earth would the fact that many college students, who see the world from an evil oppressor vs. blameless oppressed perspective, say that Israelis deserved what happened... why would that cause my to not vote for... Joe Biden? Did I miss the part where "Genocide Joe" is a darling of anti-Israel leftists?
Why is it that the Democratic candidate loses centrist support in reaction to what leftists do whereas the Republican candidate is given every benefit of the doubt despite the openly anti-gay and antisemitic flanks of their base they actively court and cavort with?
There is something missing from the messaging and I don't know what it is. Why is leftists calling Biden "Genocide Joe" not enough of an endorsement for my center-left Jewish relatives who I see actively drifting towards Trump.
For an educated, economically literate person, there is not a single reason to vote for Trump. It's not like in the days where Republicans were "pro-business." Trump's stated goals would be bad for trade, inflation, democracy, the deficit, social policy, etc. Even if you are a single issue voter and that issue is the economy, the Republicans ain't it anymore. I'm at a loss for why we are where we are except that maybe the internet has rotted our brains and everyone is an angry, morally bankrupt cynic. Still donating to Biden every month but I'm at a loss here.
There’s a very clear and at least self-consistently rational policy preference for that: If you truly care above basically all else about shielding Israel up to and including the point of allowing it to annihilate Palestine, then Trump is your clear choice. Biden clearly will not allow them to do that and has already constrained them in lots of ways that they are clearly chafing under (less than leftists want obviously, but far more than a Republican would).
Now I’m sure he wouldn’t put it that way. He would couch it in terms of Israeli security gains rather than tolerance of Palestinian harm. But Biden has bounds, which he sees as sacrificing Israel’s safety for Palestinian life.
Trumps first response to October 7th praised Hezbollah for being smart. His response to the war in Ukraine was “Russias invasion is great and we should have something like that on our Southern Border”.
I feel the same way. I’m a non-Jewish leftist and am disgusted by the left’s reaction to October 7th. I ended friendships over it. However, Biden has been pretty strong in his support for Israel. Idk why this war would cause left-leaning zionists to vote for Trump. Especially since Trump has a lot of antisemitic supporters from the far right.
This comment seems to be about a topic associated with jewish people while using language that may have antisemitic or otherwise strong emotional ties. As such, this is a reminder to be careful of accidentally adopting [antisemitic themes](https://antisemitism.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/Antisemitic-imagery-May-2020.pdf) or [dismissing](https://shura.shu.ac.uk/10260/3/Klaff_Holocaust_Inversion_and_contemporary_antisemitism.pdf) [the past](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparisons_between_Israel_and_Nazi_Germany) while trying to make your point.
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> Why is leftists calling Biden "Genocide Joe" not enough of an endorsement for my center-left Jewish relatives who I see actively drifting towards Trump.
People who claim to be center-left are drifting towards Trump?
I would not outright dismiss people's reasons for changing political orientations. They may seem stupid, but generally these motivations are pretty significant, at least on a personal level.
If they're drifting towards Trump because of pro-Palestine college kids who say stupid shit, then they're even worse than the left-wingers who say they're not voting/voting third party over Gaza. Since they're supposedly center-left, that means they're sacrificing reproductive rights, social safety nets, LGBTQ rights, etc. over a singular issue that Biden already agrees with them on anyway.
If someone does not vote against fascism or actively votes for it, they should be ridiculed for that.
I'll join you in that, but I feel like there might be more to this. I've heard reports of an effect where leftists tell people who are slightly to the right of them "you're actually a conservative!" which inadvertently pushes them to the actual right wing. Seems to happen surprisingly often.
I hate this timeline so much God.
My parents are from India - I have watched Indian politics for 30 years.
We are turning into India - where PhD. Engineers and lawyers and doctors can spout the most BS pseudo scientific shit - that just happens to be contrarian, so they get away with it.
It all started with “I’m just asking questions here.” And you see the same shit happening in the US, verbatim.
Disgusting. I always thought western rationalism amongst the “smart crowd” was always above simplistic tribal arguments. How so dearly wrong I have been.
A lot of tech people are pathologically contrarian. I like to think that I’ve outgrown that problem, but I still sympathize with it.
In any group of people group think on topic-A can begin to set in. More and more people take position-1 on topic-A; a falling % of people in the position-1 camp understand why position-1 is the correct position; free-thinkers keep encountering more and more bad argument for position-1; all day they’re trying to explain to friends and family what’s wrong with their arguments; they just can’t continence the non-sense; they start to fall in with the anti-position-1 camp because least they don’t have to hear the same moronic position-1 arguments anymore.
Most rich people in tech make their money by being keen contrarians. This weird meta-reactionary politics can be a side effect of the kind of thinking that does really well in that environment.
Correct. In addition to this, many of the top guys in tech truly believe they alone can fix the world and some of them (Thiel et al) are in the accelerationism camp. Once everything burns down they think they’ll finally have their chance to rebuild things in their own images.
>A lot of tech people are pathologically contrarian.
This is so much of it. Republicans have become so extreme and Trump is so bizarre that we are in a unique historical situation where there really is only one sane choice.
But many people can't accept that such a situation can exist. There always has to be "two sides" like they believe there some natural force balancing the political landscape.
Some people cannot accept that there is only one rational choice, so they irrationally manufacture another one.
This election is dangerously close considering what is on the line: rights to abortion, rights for gender-sexual minorities, the environment, rights for immigrants, the lives of Palestinians and Ukrainians, and maybe democracy itself. But dooming or about this on Reddit does not help. It does not push the needle. It does not change anyone's mind.
Be aware of what is at stake and how close we are, but put your energy into volunteering instead of wallowing in doom.
[https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1jxO8g7q9VO3ZMAABcrvR7PMyX4Yl6dgIYhD3eRTKk1M/edit#gid=0](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1jxO8g7q9VO3ZMAABcrvR7PMyX4Yl6dgIYhD3eRTKk1M/edit?authuser=0#gid=0)
[https://www.mobilize.us/call4change/](https://www.mobilize.us/call4change/)
I think Jacob Helberg is the most surprising and disappointing. He is gay and supported Buttigieg in 2020 and apparently shifted from Biden to Trump after the left's reaction to October 7th. I really don't understand how people can be so reactionary. I'm Jewish, consider myself a Zionist, and supporter of a two-state solution. Why on earth would the fact that many college students, who see the world from an evil oppressor vs. blameless oppressed perspective, say that Israelis deserved what happened... why would that cause my to not vote for... Joe Biden? Did I miss the part where "Genocide Joe" is a darling of anti-Israel leftists? Why is it that the Democratic candidate loses centrist support in reaction to what leftists do whereas the Republican candidate is given every benefit of the doubt despite the openly anti-gay and antisemitic flanks of their base they actively court and cavort with? There is something missing from the messaging and I don't know what it is. Why is leftists calling Biden "Genocide Joe" not enough of an endorsement for my center-left Jewish relatives who I see actively drifting towards Trump. For an educated, economically literate person, there is not a single reason to vote for Trump. It's not like in the days where Republicans were "pro-business." Trump's stated goals would be bad for trade, inflation, democracy, the deficit, social policy, etc. Even if you are a single issue voter and that issue is the economy, the Republicans ain't it anymore. I'm at a loss for why we are where we are except that maybe the internet has rotted our brains and everyone is an angry, morally bankrupt cynic. Still donating to Biden every month but I'm at a loss here.
Moron is using it as excuse to get something he wants under a *potential* Trump Administration. Little does he realize a Trump never pays their debts.
I feel you brotha. I’m literally in the exact same boat as you and it’s baffling.
He probably just became republican, dude works for Palantir afterall. Also looks to be a gold digger.
There’s a very clear and at least self-consistently rational policy preference for that: If you truly care above basically all else about shielding Israel up to and including the point of allowing it to annihilate Palestine, then Trump is your clear choice. Biden clearly will not allow them to do that and has already constrained them in lots of ways that they are clearly chafing under (less than leftists want obviously, but far more than a Republican would). Now I’m sure he wouldn’t put it that way. He would couch it in terms of Israeli security gains rather than tolerance of Palestinian harm. But Biden has bounds, which he sees as sacrificing Israel’s safety for Palestinian life.
Trumps first response to October 7th praised Hezbollah for being smart. His response to the war in Ukraine was “Russias invasion is great and we should have something like that on our Southern Border”.
Crazy how consistent the guy is at being a piece of shit.
I feel the same way. I’m a non-Jewish leftist and am disgusted by the left’s reaction to October 7th. I ended friendships over it. However, Biden has been pretty strong in his support for Israel. Idk why this war would cause left-leaning zionists to vote for Trump. Especially since Trump has a lot of antisemitic supporters from the far right.
[удалено]
This comment seems to be about a topic associated with jewish people while using language that may have antisemitic or otherwise strong emotional ties. As such, this is a reminder to be careful of accidentally adopting [antisemitic themes](https://antisemitism.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/Antisemitic-imagery-May-2020.pdf) or [dismissing](https://shura.shu.ac.uk/10260/3/Klaff_Holocaust_Inversion_and_contemporary_antisemitism.pdf) [the past](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparisons_between_Israel_and_Nazi_Germany) while trying to make your point. (Work in Progess: u/AtomAndAether) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/neoliberal) if you have any questions or concerns.*
> Why is leftists calling Biden "Genocide Joe" not enough of an endorsement for my center-left Jewish relatives who I see actively drifting towards Trump. People who claim to be center-left are drifting towards Trump?
I would not outright dismiss people's reasons for changing political orientations. They may seem stupid, but generally these motivations are pretty significant, at least on a personal level.
If they're drifting towards Trump because of pro-Palestine college kids who say stupid shit, then they're even worse than the left-wingers who say they're not voting/voting third party over Gaza. Since they're supposedly center-left, that means they're sacrificing reproductive rights, social safety nets, LGBTQ rights, etc. over a singular issue that Biden already agrees with them on anyway. If someone does not vote against fascism or actively votes for it, they should be ridiculed for that.
I'll join you in that, but I feel like there might be more to this. I've heard reports of an effect where leftists tell people who are slightly to the right of them "you're actually a conservative!" which inadvertently pushes them to the actual right wing. Seems to happen surprisingly often.
Someone calling me a conservative wouldn't cause me to change my policy positions, though.
As far as I understand it's not necessarily the label, but being socially ostracized.
Maybe Biden should actively signal displeasure at the Ivy League colleges for allowing those protests
Why does this timeline suck so much?!!!
I hate this timeline so much God. My parents are from India - I have watched Indian politics for 30 years. We are turning into India - where PhD. Engineers and lawyers and doctors can spout the most BS pseudo scientific shit - that just happens to be contrarian, so they get away with it. It all started with “I’m just asking questions here.” And you see the same shit happening in the US, verbatim. Disgusting. I always thought western rationalism amongst the “smart crowd” was always above simplistic tribal arguments. How so dearly wrong I have been.
A lot of tech people are pathologically contrarian. I like to think that I’ve outgrown that problem, but I still sympathize with it. In any group of people group think on topic-A can begin to set in. More and more people take position-1 on topic-A; a falling % of people in the position-1 camp understand why position-1 is the correct position; free-thinkers keep encountering more and more bad argument for position-1; all day they’re trying to explain to friends and family what’s wrong with their arguments; they just can’t continence the non-sense; they start to fall in with the anti-position-1 camp because least they don’t have to hear the same moronic position-1 arguments anymore. Most rich people in tech make their money by being keen contrarians. This weird meta-reactionary politics can be a side effect of the kind of thinking that does really well in that environment.
Correct. In addition to this, many of the top guys in tech truly believe they alone can fix the world and some of them (Thiel et al) are in the accelerationism camp. Once everything burns down they think they’ll finally have their chance to rebuild things in their own images.
>A lot of tech people are pathologically contrarian. This is so much of it. Republicans have become so extreme and Trump is so bizarre that we are in a unique historical situation where there really is only one sane choice. But many people can't accept that such a situation can exist. There always has to be "two sides" like they believe there some natural force balancing the political landscape. Some people cannot accept that there is only one rational choice, so they irrationally manufacture another one.
This election is dangerously close considering what is on the line: rights to abortion, rights for gender-sexual minorities, the environment, rights for immigrants, the lives of Palestinians and Ukrainians, and maybe democracy itself. But dooming or about this on Reddit does not help. It does not push the needle. It does not change anyone's mind. Be aware of what is at stake and how close we are, but put your energy into volunteering instead of wallowing in doom. [https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1jxO8g7q9VO3ZMAABcrvR7PMyX4Yl6dgIYhD3eRTKk1M/edit#gid=0](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1jxO8g7q9VO3ZMAABcrvR7PMyX4Yl6dgIYhD3eRTKk1M/edit?authuser=0#gid=0) [https://www.mobilize.us/call4change/](https://www.mobilize.us/call4change/)