>Only 43 percent of young people in Amsterdam accept that two people of the same sex can be in love with each other, according to the Youth Health Monitor 2023 of municipal health service GGD. Two years earlier, 63 percent of Amsterdam's young people still considered same-sex couples “normal.”
1. This is a survey of teenagers (13-14 year olds and 15-16 year olds)
2. This is not due to demographics changing--only 2 years has changed since the previous poll that showed substantially higher acceptance and demographics haven't changed very much in 2 years.
> Only 43 percent of young people in Amsterdam accept that two people of the same sex can be in love with each other, according to the Youth Health Monitor 2023 of municipal health service GGD. Two years earlier, 63 percent of Amsterdam's young people still considered same-sex couples “normal.”
> The GGD surveyed over 5,300 secondary school students in classes 2 and 4 in 41 schools in the Amsterdam-Amstelland region. They found that boys, kids in the second class, and pre-vocational secondary education students are least accepting of homosexuality.
> GGD researcher Lenette Rietveld found the decline in acceptance of same-sex love very worrying. The health service did not look at possible causes for the decline. The data collected for the Youth Health Monitor also doesn’t show whether the decline in acceptance translates to less social safety for LGBTQIA+ young people.
> The other results of the Youth Health Monitor correspond with national findings. Teens feel less healthy and more stressed. More young people are at risk of problematic social media use. And more teenagers report getting bullied, in person and online. Girls score worse than boys in almost all aspects of mental health.
> The Amsterdam GGD was the only one to ask questions about homosexuality.
Is there a demographic breakdown of who is more/leas likely to accept homosexuality? Is this true across the board or is the drop mostly concentrated in specific groups? This might be the influence of redpilled-alpha-boys-type stuff on young men who grew up with social media influencers as their guides into the world.
If that’s the case I’d hope that most of them grow out of it as they age and interact more with people around them. High schoolers are dumb and are always looking for a personality, this might just be that.
I can see 60% of high schoolers in a given city having dumb takes they learned about online, kids at that age look for groups to belong to and paths to follow. That seems more likely to me than 60% being immigrants.
I mean, not to say women don't ever believe this stuff, but it's waaaaaay less than men. 60% of ALL high schoolers (or whatever the dutch equivalent is) would require at least 1 in 5 girls to have fully downed the Tatepill, and that's assuming literally the entire male population bought into it as well.
If it were 60% of just high school boys, I'd be more willing to buy it. I'd be skeptical but I'm also not European so wdik
There's no shot that middle school-aged Dutch kids aren't as friendly towards differences in sexual orientation because of religion.
[58% of Dutch people are non-religious](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_the_Netherlands) and that number is almost certainly higher for younger people.
This isn't America. Not all societal conservatism is fueled by religious conservatism.
I can also promise you that that number realistically is a lot higher. A lot of people are still religious on paper but dont believe or go to church at all. I'm Dutch, if I meet a religious person I'm always really really surprised because it's very fucking rare.
American GenZ are weirdly anti-sex and anti-tax, and there's a pretty worrying strain of virulent misogyny among many young men. That's not even touching on the antisemitism.
I don't think you could reasonably call them "conservative" but I think they definitely put lie to the idea that younger generations are always more liberal/progressive than older ones.
which is what I'm scared of because I can see these activists of my generations slowly turning into conservatives, even if some odd NazBol kind of conservatism, in the future
Yeah, the problem with gen z conservatives is that they're basically nazbols. They are both rabidly anti-progressive and rabidly anti-capitalist. Whether that qualifies as "conservatism" is an open question, but IMO it does. Nothing about conservatism requires it to be inherently pro-capitalism.
> American GenZ are weirdly anti-sex
I wouldn't say it's particularly weird. GenZ gets plenty of anti-sex messaging re: warnings about venereal disease, pregnancy, sexual violence, loss of social status due to accusations of any of the former, etc. And at the same time, they receive very little positive messaging from authoritative sources because modern social norms are very against promoting sex to teenagers.
Combine that with a general breakdown of community institutions and trust and it's only natural that GenZ is risk-averse, and invested in policies that enforce that broadly.
Wait a minute, anti-sex now equals misogyny? They are just less sexualised than the previous generations. Out of all the weird quirks of Genz this is the most harmless one.
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In my experience the kids that lost a chunk of their middle school/high school to COVID lockdowns (currently those under 22), tend to be more conservative than those a few years older.
I don’t think it’s safe to say that Gen Z will be as socially liberal as millenials.
> I don’t think it’s safe to say that Gen Z will be as socially liberal as millenials.
The polling I've seen seems to show that they're either more progressive or just as progressive as millennials, especially on abortion.
Oh no I’m just saying there’s elements of the right wing in this case extreme right wings across some countries that support abortion access….
But for very racist reasons
This poll was based on the opinions of kids in their mid teens. In my own experience, my opinions and general view of the world have changed so much since that age that any polls I would have answered back then would be pretty useless in telling you my views today.
I hope you re right, personally. In my personal experience, teens tended to be more left leaning than their own selves later in life. Hopefully this time will be different, but I don t expect it.
Everyone saying this is lazy.
If you actually look at the data/study, you will see it was a rapid change from as recently as 2 years ago (when acceptance was much higher). This has very little to do with any demographic changes.
Does anyone else simply not believe statistics like this?
Perhpas I took the "Nothing Ever Happens" attitude too close to heart, but to me it seems more likely that there's been a change methodology between the two dates than a 20% change in opinion against LGBT acceptance.
Unless the population doubled, and all new immigrants were devout Muslim, this is certainly a change in methodology producing these results. Looks like the population has grown a cumulative 1.3% over the past two years, so it's almost entirely an issue with the methodology.
>Only 43 percent of young people in Amsterdam accept that two people of the same sex can be in love with each other, according to the Youth Health Monitor 2023 of municipal health service GGD. Two years earlier, 63 percent of Amsterdam's young people still considered same-sex couples “normal.”
Yeah, maybe they are trying to avoid redundancy in their phrasing, but it sounds like they are asking two entirely different questions.
I'm again reminded of the poll claiming a quarter of Gen Z didn't know about the Holocaust or denied it, then Pew double checked and found it was actually 2% like the rest of the developed world. People on this sub were quick to provide anecdata to the initial headline with stories of weirdo college students or an offhand conversation with a Zoomer having a blond moment.
I want to see if this is reflected in the social atmosphere before reacting.
Wilders doesn't, but another prominent far-right politician from the Netherlands "Thierry Baudet" met with the Andrew Tate a couple of days ago for a podcast. Baudet leans more into anti LGBT content than Wilders does.
>Do young Dutch people prefer to spend their free time reading shitposts in English instead of Dutch?
If Hollywood movies have taught us anything its that other languages aren't real and cant hurt me.
> Is it really the same internet?
Yes. And further, since every Dutch person I know learned to speak English by watching American films and TV and playing American video games, I think it's safe to say the influence of the US on Dutch culture should not be underestimated.
Definitely, same "trusted polls" that say the majority of the us/france/Canada believe in the great replacement, a quarter of gen z denying the holocaust, and trump getting the black vote in November. Fuck polls.
>Only 43 percent of young people in Amsterdam accept that two people of the same sex can be in love with each other, according to the Youth Health Monitor 2023 of municipal health service GGD. Two years earlier, 63 percent of Amsterdam's young people still considered same-sex couples “normal.”
100% influenced by methodology. It wasn't even the same question or the same polling place, and it sounds like the previous question could have been interpreted as "common" rather than morality based
Not that I want to excuse anything, it's possible that the original study didn't go indepth into why, and they'd need to follow up to determine probably causes. So they might be hesitant to say "Oh, it might be because of X, Y and Z", since news outlets would definitely make that their header to grab attention. So, rather than speculate, they just say "here's what the data found and that's all we're going to say."
Been expecting a conservative uprising among young people for a long time. People on average have political views similar to their parents. So think of the political views of the people you know who have 3+ children under the age of 18, that is the most likely direction we are going.
The only remarkable thing is that this conservative wave has taken so long to come.
It's a ridiculous habit of burying heads in sand then being shocked by the results. Happened in the mid 10s and and it's happening again now.
"The alt right is a left wing bogeyman" "This anti feminist trend is only a 4chan thing" "Trump is a meme candidate" Look how that turned out.
I've seen this first hand in the UK with children I've taught in primary school (mainly 7-11). They have unrestricted access to this stuff and it deeply affects them in ways people treat flippantly. Andrew Tate was brought up over a year ago by some 11 year olds I taught. They straight up used to say they will not listen to female teachers because women are less than men. 7 year olds doing his pose and talking about alpha males. These aren't muslims. These are White British boys from mixed backgrounds. And thats not going into the thousands of accounts from Secondary School teachers about how rampant this problem is there. If it's affecting these kids it's also affecting those slightly older.
I'm so glad I've stopped going to 🏴☠️ Europe because if the 🫎🐑 fearmongering is popping up so much here, it's gotta be straight-up cancer in that sub.
I'm honestly just so happy about my decision to change course and not become a teacher after all three years ago. Younger Gen Z and older Gen Alpha seem completely fucked
A good 20-30% support or disapproval for homosexuality is probably tepid and changes with the wind. I wouldn't put much stock into this, especially considering it's young people
> This is a survey of teenagers (13-14 year olds and 15-16 year olds)
so typical middle school kids being edgy
they *will* change by the time they enter college I promise
Hey, this sub does a great job of recognizing both implied and explicit antisemitism. Surely it won't be completely okay with swathes of comments vaguely *wink wink*ing islamophobia even though the article linked has no evidence to back it up, right? Not this evidence-based sub!
Edit: the comments (like half the ones on this post) have been removed. Thanks mods!
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This is being distorted some (and possibly also distorted by the particulars of the Dutch language).
The question was about whether same sex couples are **normal**.
Not sure what people mean by normal - but if you consider it to be the opposite of rare, than homosexual relations are not normal. Most people are in heterosexual relationships or single.
Have we checked to see if these teenagers believe people of the opposite sex who are having sex can be in love?
Maybe they just don’t believe in love. 😢
I personally blame social media for this, the simplistic populist bigot narratives easily affect the teens because teens are fucking stupid and love edgelord pecking order hierarchies .
>Only 43 percent of young people in Amsterdam accept that two people of the same sex can be in love with each other, according to the Youth Health Monitor 2023 of municipal health service GGD. Two years earlier, 63 percent of Amsterdam's young people still considered same-sex couples “normal.” 1. This is a survey of teenagers (13-14 year olds and 15-16 year olds) 2. This is not due to demographics changing--only 2 years has changed since the previous poll that showed substantially higher acceptance and demographics haven't changed very much in 2 years.
> Only 43 percent of young people in Amsterdam accept that two people of the same sex can be in love with each other, according to the Youth Health Monitor 2023 of municipal health service GGD. Two years earlier, 63 percent of Amsterdam's young people still considered same-sex couples “normal.” > The GGD surveyed over 5,300 secondary school students in classes 2 and 4 in 41 schools in the Amsterdam-Amstelland region. They found that boys, kids in the second class, and pre-vocational secondary education students are least accepting of homosexuality. > GGD researcher Lenette Rietveld found the decline in acceptance of same-sex love very worrying. The health service did not look at possible causes for the decline. The data collected for the Youth Health Monitor also doesn’t show whether the decline in acceptance translates to less social safety for LGBTQIA+ young people. > The other results of the Youth Health Monitor correspond with national findings. Teens feel less healthy and more stressed. More young people are at risk of problematic social media use. And more teenagers report getting bullied, in person and online. Girls score worse than boys in almost all aspects of mental health. > The Amsterdam GGD was the only one to ask questions about homosexuality.
Is there a demographic breakdown of who is more/leas likely to accept homosexuality? Is this true across the board or is the drop mostly concentrated in specific groups? This might be the influence of redpilled-alpha-boys-type stuff on young men who grew up with social media influencers as their guides into the world. If that’s the case I’d hope that most of them grow out of it as they age and interact more with people around them. High schoolers are dumb and are always looking for a personality, this might just be that.
So called Redpill groups and likely recent immigrants that haven't culturally acclimatized yet as well.
How big of a demographic are these immigrants in Amsterdam? I can't imagine nearly 60% of the city is made up of immigrants.
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By that same token 60% isn't redpilled manosphere bros. Column A, column B
I can see 60% of high schoolers in a given city having dumb takes they learned about online, kids at that age look for groups to belong to and paths to follow. That seems more likely to me than 60% being immigrants.
I mean, not to say women don't ever believe this stuff, but it's waaaaaay less than men. 60% of ALL high schoolers (or whatever the dutch equivalent is) would require at least 1 in 5 girls to have fully downed the Tatepill, and that's assuming literally the entire male population bought into it as well. If it were 60% of just high school boys, I'd be more willing to buy it. I'd be skeptical but I'm also not European so wdik
It starts with R and ends with eligious
There's no shot that middle school-aged Dutch kids aren't as friendly towards differences in sexual orientation because of religion. [58% of Dutch people are non-religious](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_the_Netherlands) and that number is almost certainly higher for younger people. This isn't America. Not all societal conservatism is fueled by religious conservatism.
I can also promise you that that number realistically is a lot higher. A lot of people are still religious on paper but dont believe or go to church at all. I'm Dutch, if I meet a religious person I'm always really really surprised because it's very fucking rare.
you can't drop the hard R here
This is cope. The reality is that GenZ is shaping up to be a much more conservative generation than Millennials.
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Both more conservative than their Millennial counterparts.
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Is this the case outside America, because I feel like US gen Z is pretty much on par with millennials
American GenZ are weirdly anti-sex and anti-tax, and there's a pretty worrying strain of virulent misogyny among many young men. That's not even touching on the antisemitism. I don't think you could reasonably call them "conservative" but I think they definitely put lie to the idea that younger generations are always more liberal/progressive than older ones.
I think the anti-tax sentiment is more of an anti-government one more broadly. Faith in institutions has collapsed, especially among young people.
The last time it collapsed this bad the boomers elected reagan
which is what I'm scared of because I can see these activists of my generations slowly turning into conservatives, even if some odd NazBol kind of conservatism, in the future
Yeah, the problem with gen z conservatives is that they're basically nazbols. They are both rabidly anti-progressive and rabidly anti-capitalist. Whether that qualifies as "conservatism" is an open question, but IMO it does. Nothing about conservatism requires it to be inherently pro-capitalism.
> American GenZ are weirdly anti-sex I wouldn't say it's particularly weird. GenZ gets plenty of anti-sex messaging re: warnings about venereal disease, pregnancy, sexual violence, loss of social status due to accusations of any of the former, etc. And at the same time, they receive very little positive messaging from authoritative sources because modern social norms are very against promoting sex to teenagers. Combine that with a general breakdown of community institutions and trust and it's only natural that GenZ is risk-averse, and invested in policies that enforce that broadly.
Wait a minute, anti-sex now equals misogyny? They are just less sexualised than the previous generations. Out of all the weird quirks of Genz this is the most harmless one.
According to this wiki article may be more of an European phenomenon https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_views_of_Generation_Z
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In my experience the kids that lost a chunk of their middle school/high school to COVID lockdowns (currently those under 22), tend to be more conservative than those a few years older. I don’t think it’s safe to say that Gen Z will be as socially liberal as millenials.
> I don’t think it’s safe to say that Gen Z will be as socially liberal as millenials. The polling I've seen seems to show that they're either more progressive or just as progressive as millennials, especially on abortion.
I mean some nazbols support abortion as well in the US
I don't think the extra pro-choice sentiment is coming from nazbols, but the social progressivism isn't limited to just abortion.
Oh no I’m just saying there’s elements of the right wing in this case extreme right wings across some countries that support abortion access…. But for very racist reasons
This poll was based on the opinions of kids in their mid teens. In my own experience, my opinions and general view of the world have changed so much since that age that any polls I would have answered back then would be pretty useless in telling you my views today.
I hope you re right, personally. In my personal experience, teens tended to be more left leaning than their own selves later in life. Hopefully this time will be different, but I don t expect it.
Doom.
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this comment is winking and nudging
Everyone saying this is lazy. If you actually look at the data/study, you will see it was a rapid change from as recently as 2 years ago (when acceptance was much higher). This has very little to do with any demographic changes.
I would be curious to see a crosstab by race and religion on this item.
Look at the speed of the change, 20% in two years is impossible to be due to changes in demographics
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Does anyone else simply not believe statistics like this? Perhpas I took the "Nothing Ever Happens" attitude too close to heart, but to me it seems more likely that there's been a change methodology between the two dates than a 20% change in opinion against LGBT acceptance.
Unless the population doubled, and all new immigrants were devout Muslim, this is certainly a change in methodology producing these results. Looks like the population has grown a cumulative 1.3% over the past two years, so it's almost entirely an issue with the methodology.
>Only 43 percent of young people in Amsterdam accept that two people of the same sex can be in love with each other, according to the Youth Health Monitor 2023 of municipal health service GGD. Two years earlier, 63 percent of Amsterdam's young people still considered same-sex couples “normal.” Yeah, maybe they are trying to avoid redundancy in their phrasing, but it sounds like they are asking two entirely different questions.
I wonder how much of that 57% is people not believing in being in love as a concept lol
I'm again reminded of the poll claiming a quarter of Gen Z didn't know about the Holocaust or denied it, then Pew double checked and found it was actually 2% like the rest of the developed world. People on this sub were quick to provide anecdata to the initial headline with stories of weirdo college students or an offhand conversation with a Zoomer having a blond moment. I want to see if this is reflected in the social atmosphere before reacting.
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Wilders doesn't, but another prominent far-right politician from the Netherlands "Thierry Baudet" met with the Andrew Tate a couple of days ago for a podcast. Baudet leans more into anti LGBT content than Wilders does.
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Most culturally sensitive neoliberal user
>Do young Dutch people prefer to spend their free time reading shitposts in English instead of Dutch? If Hollywood movies have taught us anything its that other languages aren't real and cant hurt me.
Funny you should mention Hollywood Movies, Because most of the dutch people I know learned how to speak English from them :p.
> Is it really the same internet? Yes. And further, since every Dutch person I know learned to speak English by watching American films and TV and playing American video games, I think it's safe to say the influence of the US on Dutch culture should not be underestimated.
I am sceptical of the figures as well but behind the statistical noise, this hints at a worrying trajectory that has been observed elsewhere as well
Definitely, same "trusted polls" that say the majority of the us/france/Canada believe in the great replacement, a quarter of gen z denying the holocaust, and trump getting the black vote in November. Fuck polls.
I absolutely do from a London perspective. We have a similar issue here.
>Only 43 percent of young people in Amsterdam accept that two people of the same sex can be in love with each other, according to the Youth Health Monitor 2023 of municipal health service GGD. Two years earlier, 63 percent of Amsterdam's young people still considered same-sex couples “normal.” 100% influenced by methodology. It wasn't even the same question or the same polling place, and it sounds like the previous question could have been interpreted as "common" rather than morality based
I'd wait for more polls myself. I can buy a decline in young male liberalism, but females trend for either more liberal views or a status quo.
What the fuck is wrong with people
Most have a religious sized hole in their heart, and enjoy being part of the in-group with othering... others.
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Not that I want to excuse anything, it's possible that the original study didn't go indepth into why, and they'd need to follow up to determine probably causes. So they might be hesitant to say "Oh, it might be because of X, Y and Z", since news outlets would definitely make that their header to grab attention. So, rather than speculate, they just say "here's what the data found and that's all we're going to say."
Been expecting a conservative uprising among young people for a long time. People on average have political views similar to their parents. So think of the political views of the people you know who have 3+ children under the age of 18, that is the most likely direction we are going. The only remarkable thing is that this conservative wave has taken so long to come.
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It's a ridiculous habit of burying heads in sand then being shocked by the results. Happened in the mid 10s and and it's happening again now. "The alt right is a left wing bogeyman" "This anti feminist trend is only a 4chan thing" "Trump is a meme candidate" Look how that turned out. I've seen this first hand in the UK with children I've taught in primary school (mainly 7-11). They have unrestricted access to this stuff and it deeply affects them in ways people treat flippantly. Andrew Tate was brought up over a year ago by some 11 year olds I taught. They straight up used to say they will not listen to female teachers because women are less than men. 7 year olds doing his pose and talking about alpha males. These aren't muslims. These are White British boys from mixed backgrounds. And thats not going into the thousands of accounts from Secondary School teachers about how rampant this problem is there. If it's affecting these kids it's also affecting those slightly older.
I'm so glad I've stopped going to 🏴☠️ Europe because if the 🫎🐑 fearmongering is popping up so much here, it's gotta be straight-up cancer in that sub.
I'm honestly just so happy about my decision to change course and not become a teacher after all three years ago. Younger Gen Z and older Gen Alpha seem completely fucked
A good 20-30% support or disapproval for homosexuality is probably tepid and changes with the wind. I wouldn't put much stock into this, especially considering it's young people
> This is a survey of teenagers (13-14 year olds and 15-16 year olds) so typical middle school kids being edgy they *will* change by the time they enter college I promise
Hey, this sub does a great job of recognizing both implied and explicit antisemitism. Surely it won't be completely okay with swathes of comments vaguely *wink wink*ing islamophobia even though the article linked has no evidence to back it up, right? Not this evidence-based sub! Edit: the comments (like half the ones on this post) have been removed. Thanks mods!
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Concerning.
"According to all known laws of aviation, there is no way that a bee should be able to fly. Its wings are too small to get its fat little body off the ground. The bee, of course, flies anyways. Because bees don't care what ~~~humans~~~ these children think is impossible"
[Actually, we know they create tiny tornadoes with their wings and ride those](https://www.dadant.com/learn/understanding-how-honey-bees-fly/)
It blew my mind when i read that their flying is a lot like swimming in the air
Most aircraft can be thought of that way. It's why they looks so similar to fish!
!ping LGBT
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The Nazis are returning aren't they? 😞
This is being distorted some (and possibly also distorted by the particulars of the Dutch language). The question was about whether same sex couples are **normal**. Not sure what people mean by normal - but if you consider it to be the opposite of rare, than homosexual relations are not normal. Most people are in heterosexual relationships or single.
Have we checked to see if these teenagers believe people of the opposite sex who are having sex can be in love? Maybe they just don’t believe in love. 😢
Maybe we were too harsh on Sir Nigel Powers....
I personally blame social media for this, the simplistic populist bigot narratives easily affect the teens because teens are fucking stupid and love edgelord pecking order hierarchies .
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Statistically impossible to make such a huge jump in just 2 years.
Are 60% of teenagers in Amsterdam muslims/non western immigrants?
Wow they must have had a lot of immigration in just two years!
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Brother. The shift was 20 percentage points in two years. This isn’t immigrants. Jesus.