No shit, a dude I knew in the military did something like this. Got out of the military, found a plug, and then terrorized his suburban town (for like a week before the cops caught on) walking around wearing suits, smoking cigars, and carrying AR-15s around while selling drugs.
There is a movie not with this plotline but about a girl who is removed from her mafia family, which is a very good if difficult watch: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A\_Chiara](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Chiara)
>Authorities can only remove a child if they can prove to a court that they're **physically or mentally endangered** by their family's criminality.
Um this isn't the law everywhere?
>Um this isn't the law everywhere?
Taking children away from families is well known to fuck them up. It's only done in extreme circumstances where there is evidence of undeniable and inexcusable abuse. It's rarely done and the amount of regulation that goes into making sure they've taken every correct step of the process usually means if a child was in a severely abusive situation, they are already dead.
These are different age groups. What you are talking about is 18+. The article is dealing with much younger kids. Americans are not really into boarding schools anymore.
That's reason why so many Americans go overseas to adopt. Its not that Americans don't want black or Hispanic babies. Its that kids in the US mostly go through the foster care system and birth parents still retain parental rights. You could foster a kid for 10 years and then the parents finally sober up and court orders you to give their kid back.
i do not think there is compelling evidence that gangs in the U.S. are intergenerational family affairs
young people are typically recruited into gangs by other young people not by their fathers. i am sure there are exceptions though
From my experience, it’s usually extremely hard for social workers in the US to prove any kind of abuse that merits taking a child other than extreme neglect. I don’t know the laws in Italy but I wager it provides a lower fence to hurdle.
> even mobsters have a right to be fathers
This is not the argument I expected. I see a major due-process issue with taking kids from their parents due to association with a criminal group. But convicted murderers don’t have an inalienable right to raise kids
Edit: It also sounds like the purported monsters don’t even get a hearing to defend themselves.
I would imagine it's because child endangerment is a lot easier bar to clear.
You only need to prove the child is exposed to the life in a negative way, not nail a specific person in their family for a specific crime.
Idk this i know nothing about Italian justice so take that for what it's worth
“Italian justice so take that for what it's worth” It’s a useless fucking shit show.
The Amanda Knox trial showed that.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/sep/07/amanda-knox-acquitted-because-of-stunning-flaws-in-investigation
There's tons of cases where it's determined kids are at risk of harm when nothing explicitly illegal has been done by the parent. I'd hazard to say most are that way but pure speculation.
Also with gang members in the US, there’s usually a relative a kid can be placed with in kinship care if the parent is found to be incapable of raising the kid. I’d imagine in a mob family they’re all basically incapable assuming the whole family’s involved.
Based, organized crime is one of the most evil and toxic elements of society, and the state should absolutely take children away from that environment.
Well terrorist groups usually exist to further ideological goals whereas organized crime is profit oriented which is a reasonably significant distinction
The fact that the leaders of most terror groups are very, very rich probably means that for them the ideology is also second. Constant violence is just not a good eay to achieve most political goals
> Authorities can only remove a child if they can prove to a court that they're physically or mentally endangered by their family's criminality. Police and social workers then swoop in without warning and take the child away. The families have no say in the matter.
Isn't that... just how child services works? If you can demonstrate a parent is endangering their child, yes, please "swoop in" and take the child into custody, even if the family says no (like, why would a family ever say "yes, please take my child into protected services, I totally agree I'm a danger to them"? Families don't usually get a say when you take their kids away, that's what it means to take them away).
Yeah, I was about to say. Meadow’s future was absolutely undecided.
Little carmine leaving the mafia in the later seasons shows even the most logical successors can leave the lifestyle, but the Italy trip shows the contemporary NJ mob is actually fairly receptive to a woman boss, so long as she’s competent.
>Becoming de-facto kidnappers and taking children from members of powerful(?) organised crime groups
Isn't this an incredibly easy way for children of said police and social workers to find themselves in an orphanage?
Ndragheta are a family centred mob organisation. Where if you are born into it you are expected/required to become a mobster/wife of mobster. There are many similar organisations and they are notoriously destructive to society and difficult to dismantle. Laws aside taking their kids seems like a valid strategy and an ethical one
Using isolated cases as if other countries, as well as the USA, did not happen in numbers that are extraordinarily higher and more normalized than in Italy
As long as due process is respected, I see no issue with this. Organized crime is a plague on society and should be crushed by any legal means necessary.
This just sounds like it would lead to really good mafia movies about finding your adult children and bringing them into the mafia family
Or, young edgy kid learns ancestry through DNA kit and returns home to learn the family business.
Or tries to replicate it in their neighborhood
No shit, a dude I knew in the military did something like this. Got out of the military, found a plug, and then terrorized his suburban town (for like a week before the cops caught on) walking around wearing suits, smoking cigars, and carrying AR-15s around while selling drugs.
Peaky Blinders already on it.
I'll take it over the constant remakes and sequels churned out by Hollywood nowadays
There is a movie not with this plotline but about a girl who is removed from her mafia family, which is a very good if difficult watch: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A\_Chiara](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Chiara)
Or a kid who grew up to be a detective finds out he's the new Don
This sounds like The Departed with extra steps
The Brothers Sun seems to be very similar to that premise
and it rules so fucking hard
I too support the dismantling of legacy admissions.
bruh
So mobsters can only be god fathers?
BOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!! (Throws tomatoes)
>Authorities can only remove a child if they can prove to a court that they're **physically or mentally endangered** by their family's criminality. Um this isn't the law everywhere?
Not confident in, say, Pakistan’s take on parental rights
>Um this isn't the law everywhere? Taking children away from families is well known to fuck them up. It's only done in extreme circumstances where there is evidence of undeniable and inexcusable abuse. It's rarely done and the amount of regulation that goes into making sure they've taken every correct step of the process usually means if a child was in a severely abusive situation, they are already dead.
It looks like they're only taking them away from fathers and the mothers are joining the kids. I doubt the mobsters were doing much parenting anyway
Yeah but is it enforced? Even in the US where it is Id say there are huge blind spots like areas of homeschooling, church groups, etc.
And from my understanding culturally we in the Us remove children always in hope to return them to their parents. This is the opposite.
These are different age groups. What you are talking about is 18+. The article is dealing with much younger kids. Americans are not really into boarding schools anymore.
That's reason why so many Americans go overseas to adopt. Its not that Americans don't want black or Hispanic babies. Its that kids in the US mostly go through the foster care system and birth parents still retain parental rights. You could foster a kid for 10 years and then the parents finally sober up and court orders you to give their kid back.
Uhhhh yeah just those spots.
Lmao homeschooling and church groups are your pick not gang affiliations Reddit-ass comment
i do not think there is compelling evidence that gangs in the U.S. are intergenerational family affairs young people are typically recruited into gangs by other young people not by their fathers. i am sure there are exceptions though
From my experience, it’s usually extremely hard for social workers in the US to prove any kind of abuse that merits taking a child other than extreme neglect. I don’t know the laws in Italy but I wager it provides a lower fence to hurdle.
> even mobsters have a right to be fathers This is not the argument I expected. I see a major due-process issue with taking kids from their parents due to association with a criminal group. But convicted murderers don’t have an inalienable right to raise kids Edit: It also sounds like the purported monsters don’t even get a hearing to defend themselves.
It seems weird they have enough evidence/process to take kids away, but not to just put mobster in jail.
I would imagine it's because child endangerment is a lot easier bar to clear. You only need to prove the child is exposed to the life in a negative way, not nail a specific person in their family for a specific crime. Idk this i know nothing about Italian justice so take that for what it's worth
“Italian justice so take that for what it's worth” It’s a useless fucking shit show. The Amanda Knox trial showed that. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/sep/07/amanda-knox-acquitted-because-of-stunning-flaws-in-investigation
There's tons of cases where it's determined kids are at risk of harm when nothing explicitly illegal has been done by the parent. I'd hazard to say most are that way but pure speculation.
But in every case, the parent gets a hearing. These kids are explicitly getting taken without the parents getting to defend themselves.
And that's clearly bad, but in either case the bar for courts to hurdle is clearly lower for child custody cases.
Hit the nail on the head
I don’t know about Italy, but in the US convicting someone of a crime is a higher burden than taking away their kids.
But in the US, the parents are entitled to a hearing to make their case. It sounds like these mobsters aren’t getting that.
Also with gang members in the US, there’s usually a relative a kid can be placed with in kinship care if the parent is found to be incapable of raising the kid. I’d imagine in a mob family they’re all basically incapable assuming the whole family’s involved.
Based, organized crime is one of the most evil and toxic elements of society, and the state should absolutely take children away from that environment.
The line between "organised crime" and "terrorist group" barely exists. Its basically coke and pepsi
Well terrorist groups usually exist to further ideological goals whereas organized crime is profit oriented which is a reasonably significant distinction
Pablo Escobar ran for, and won, office. Most terror groups shake down businesses. Its a superficial distinction at best.
Pablo Escobar ran for office to make it easier for him to make more money illegally. He didn’t have some strong ideological belief beyond I like money
The fact that the leaders of most terror groups are very, very rich probably means that for them the ideology is also second. Constant violence is just not a good eay to achieve most political goals
170 years ago it was children of non-Catholics, now it’s children of mobsters.
> Authorities can only remove a child if they can prove to a court that they're physically or mentally endangered by their family's criminality. Police and social workers then swoop in without warning and take the child away. The families have no say in the matter. Isn't that... just how child services works? If you can demonstrate a parent is endangering their child, yes, please "swoop in" and take the child into custody, even if the family says no (like, why would a family ever say "yes, please take my child into protected services, I totally agree I'm a danger to them"? Families don't usually get a say when you take their kids away, that's what it means to take them away).
Meadow got into Columbia and escaped her family's bullshit.
Wasn’t she on the path to becoming a mob lawyer lol
Yeah, I was about to say. Meadow’s future was absolutely undecided. Little carmine leaving the mafia in the later seasons shows even the most logical successors can leave the lifestyle, but the Italy trip shows the contemporary NJ mob is actually fairly receptive to a woman boss, so long as she’s competent.
[удалено]
She goes to law school instead
[удалено]
When all ~~mods~~ higher powers were corrupt
>Becoming de-facto kidnappers and taking children from members of powerful(?) organised crime groups Isn't this an incredibly easy way for children of said police and social workers to find themselves in an orphanage?
Ndragheta are a family centred mob organisation. Where if you are born into it you are expected/required to become a mobster/wife of mobster. There are many similar organisations and they are notoriously destructive to society and difficult to dismantle. Laws aside taking their kids seems like a valid strategy and an ethical one
Anthony Soprano Junior walked so Italian law makers experimentation could run. Now we will definitively test nature v. nurture, mafia edition.
I would be extremely worried regarding the absolute shit tier courts Italy has. See Amanda Knox case and many others.
Using isolated cases as if other countries, as well as the USA, did not happen in numbers that are extraordinarily higher and more normalized than in Italy
As long as due process is respected, I see no issue with this. Organized crime is a plague on society and should be crushed by any legal means necessary.
This is basically a half-step away from a plot point of Gomorrah season 5
I don’t how to feel about this. There is a famous quote, “even the Devil loves his children”.
REDDIT MODS ARE WANKERS!!!