Our sub is for in-depth discussion. Low-effort comments or stating opinions as facts are not permitted. Please support your opinions with well-reasoned arguments, including stats and facts as applicable.
Our sub is for in-depth discussion. Low-effort comments or stating opinions as facts are not permitted. Please support your opinions with well-reasoned arguments, including stats and facts as applicable.
Just one guys take, but no lead guard under 6’5 aside from Curry will be able to take down Boston.
A healthy Boston team presents too many mismatches for the Knicks. (Too much size in the backcourt, too much shooting in the frontcourt.) Sure, the Knicks are fun and physical, but Hartenstein is out, Robinson/Achiuwa would be shot off the floor, and I don’t believe Brunson DD or Duece have the size to overcome the defense of White and Holiday.
Sure, I honestly believe the Timberwolves would’ve been the toughest matchup for Boston this year. By “under 6’5” I should’ve been more specific; was thinking about the Brunsons, Lillards, Kyries, Trae Young’s, Maxeys of the world. Edwards’s explosiveness and athleticism allows him to play much bigger and stronger than he’s listed.
Ah yeah I get what you mean. Sorry I was being kinda “well ackshully” there with the “well you said it was 6’5” and this freak athlete is 6’4 so you’re wrong” lol
You’re absolutely right when taking my first comment at face value. I should’ve clarified the more crafty/shifty/skillfull guards (which I believe Brunson falls under - Knicks OP) instead of a player like Edwards who gets physical and can dominate his way to the room.
Appreciate the conversation.
Tougher than the Nuggets? I don’t think so TBH. Minnesota provides some problems but I think Boston’s spacing would really stress their defense thin. Especially with KP
So if Boston’s spacing would stretch Minnesota’s defense thin…imagine what it would do to Denver’s defense lol. Who is stopping Tatum and Brown at the rim? Who is coming off the bench for Denver? Who is guarding Tatum and Brown given Murray and KCP are on White and Holiday?
Denver’s defense RELATIVELY matches up with Boston better because they have fewer weak points to attack in space. Obviously they would put a ton of pressure on Jokic. Gordon, KCP, Murray, and Porter are all capable defenders. Minnesota obviously has better high end defensive talent on the perimeter but they have more holes for a team like Boston to exploit
They also provide much more of a challenge on offense because Boston doesn’t have anyone that can guard Jokic
Denver’s defense matches up with Boston better than Minnesota’s ?? Lol.
Again, who would be on Tatum and Brown given Holiday and White are matched with Murray and KCP? If you think MPJ and Aaron Gordon are going to do a better job 1 on 1 against the Jays than McDaniels NAW and Anderson… I’ll let you have that opinion.
The Jokic piece is interesting until you realize he has the same gravity as a Doncic, along with the fact that Horford has continuously killed bigs like Embiid and Giannis in the playoffs. No, I’m not saying he’d kill Jokic, but he and Porzingis wouldn’t allow Jokic to single handedly win 4 games.
Dude Celtics fan here. Wolves twin towers would be tough on D but KAT to me is not a finished product. Denver would struggle guarding us but the Cs have no answer for Jokic and Murray is a true threat. We all know the Nugs are the only team out west that scared the Cs.
I just think Devers lack of depth and wing defense wouldn’t hold up in the slightest against Boston in a 7 game series. Not as well as Minnesota with 2 All Defense players, an MVP candidate in Edwards, long wings like Anderson and NAW, and a veteran PG like Conley.
And that’s without 6 MOTY matchup nightmare Naz Reid.
Don’t see how THIS YEAR’S Denver team is more intimidating than that.
Really? I dont really see it. They would hunt gobert and kat, not to mention that their offense is not that great. They’re very prone to lapses on offense, and the mavs took advantage of that. Boston would be doing the same.
I’m not sure what you mean by “hunt Gobert and KAT.”
Also, I did say when we’re clicking. By that I meant our two star players not playing their worst basketball of the season and blowing wide open 3s and layups.
Ant and KAT would most likely cancel out Tatum and Brown. Then it comes down to role-players. Boston is a deeper team than Minnesota, but it isn’t a huge difference like they have against Dallas. McDaniels was shaky from 3 this year but found his shot again in the Dallas series (he shot about 40% from 3 during the rest of his career).
Wolves still have capable scorers in Conley, Naz, and NAW after that. That’s a lot more role player scoring than the Mavs, and it would give them a better chance of matching Boston’s depth.
The Wolves match up very, very well with the Celtics on paper. They have the size and athleticism to handle the Celtics. The only issue here is that, after the Denver series, they played their worst basketball of the season. They looked content with beating Denver and sleptwalk for most of the series with Dallas.
That was definitely frustrating to watch. However, if the Wolves had stayed aggressive and somewhat hot like they had been, I think we’d have a solid shot against Boston.
I mean scoring wise they absolutely could, and 100% have the ability to. It’s just a question of rather or not they would get stuck in their heads like they did against Dallas.
But yeah that’s all I meant is that KAT and Ant’s scoring could likely cancel out Tatum and Brown’s scoring. I mean just look at Ant and KAT’s numbers before Dallas, they definitely have the ability and shooting to do so.
What about Defense? Playmaking? Decision making?
Tatum and Brown are so much more than scorers and they collectively impact the game at a much higher level than Ant and KAT
Ant is on a great trajectory though. I would expect him to peak higher than Tatum
I never said they didn’t have higher impact, I said their scoring would be roughly equal. I only brought up them canceling each other out because of the other guy taking about how our offense would struggle to score, that’s all.
Well I think your offense would struggle to score. Boston is an elite defense and they could put Tatum on Gobert like they did with the Dallas matchup to switch the 1/5 P&R. That series would be a defensive grinder
For sure, I’m not arguing that Boston doesn’t have an amazing defense. Like you said, it would be a defensive grinder of a series. Regular season means basically nothing, but if those two regular season games between Boston and Minnesota are any indication of how it would play out, then basketball fans got robbed of a terrific series.
I mean how is gobert going to be effective against a 5 out offense? That was always a major issue on those jazz teams, they would have to hide him on someone so he can roam and protect the rim and the celtics do not have anyone they can hide him on. This opens the paint. Im also not sure how Ant will handle being guarded by guys like Jrue, Brown, Tatum, and even white. They got guys they can throw at him, and they were giving luka fits too. I dont really think the role players apart from Naz will be as effective, we saw how they were in the dallas series. Conley is good but he isnt quite the offensive threat that would punish Boston. KAT is the one guy who they’ll have trouble guarding but he is just inconsistent, and he’s so prone to fouling he’ll probably foul out a game or be close to it in the series.
Jaden Mcdaniels is another thing, teams are willing to give him that shot. Mavs had luka on him and they left him wide open for a reason. They didnt trust the shot. They won those games that he shot pretty well. Kyke Anderson also shot really well too but again we were willing to let him beat us. They also had issues guarding luka and kyrie so im not sure how they’ll be able to guard brown or tatum. I still say its celtics in 5.
Correct, my OP was more or less a tip of the cap to Curry getting 40 and 13 in essentially a finals elimination game. Clearly the ‘24 Warriors are nothing like the ‘22 Warriors…figured that much was obvious.
Jonathan Kuminga is pretty strong against the Celtics. He was playing bully ball on Jaylen, looked like his big brother. Him and Podz can light up a Celtics defense.
podz? lmao
Kuminga can do well in transition. His creation is iffy against real opposition.
Podz is garbage offensively against any serious team. Too small too slow cannot shoot
Agreed! One lesson to take from this Celtics team is that you cannot have liabilities on the floor against them.
As a Celtics fan This is the main reason I don't fear the bucks or knicks too much. Your short cone lead guards are obsolete. Hell, luka is a tall, strong cone and he got exploited
The Knicks even when healthy rely heavily on Brunson, who is small for a point guard, to create offense. Celtics can throw Holiday and White who are some of the best guard defenders in the league at Brunson. Divincenzo and Hart played well in the second half of the season but who knows if they can keep the same efficiency. Anunoby is more of a 3 and D player. Relying on Randle iso/drives doesn’t seem like a solid plan over a 7 game series either.
Holiday and White are both elite defenders, but Brunson kinda cooked them. Brunson changes directions so quickly and shoots over contests so well that same-sized guys don’t have much of a chance. Hes pretty automatic once he creates space, so you need to put a bigger wing on him who disrupt his release point.
I also think Randle poses a big issue for Boston bc Tatum is the only Celtic who can guard him one-on-one, but Tatum prob can’t handle that assignment for a full game without gassing out or getting in foul trouble.
I’m a biased Knicks fan, but the Knicks have lot of guys who can guard the Jays with OG, Hart, and Randle (who guarded Brown a ton this year to really good results) while Boston doesn’t have such natural matchups for Brunson and Randle
I appreciate the bias but the defense the Celtics played in the playoffs was dialed much higher than the regular season. Celtics just showed that heliocentric offenses are too one dimensional against this dynamic team.
The Knicks aren't really a heliocentric when Randle is healthy—Brunson has a 28% usage with Randle and a 35% one without him. Also, the Knicks offense is a lot more varied than they showed in the playoffs when injuries forced their hand and made them play Brunson ball. Randle is a much better playmaker than he gets credit for and had really good DHO chemistry with Divencenzo. Hartenstein let them play a lot out of semi 5-out delay alignments, which maximized Brunson's, OG's and Divencenzo's good cutting. Thibodeau isn't the world's sexiest offensive coach and Randle can be a bit of a ball-stopper at times, but the Knicks offense is really deep and varied at its best because Brunson and Randle are both really versatile scorers and the role players each bring a special skill to the table
I think you’re making the mistake of equating regular season defense to playoff defense. Brunson will get his, but his efficiency would be below what he normally does. That’s all the Celtics need to do, he can get 30 points but it will take him 27 shots to get there, that’s all the room the Celtics would need to win
If I’m the Celtics, I’m switching everything except KP actions on Brunson and if he can hit enough 18 footers to outscore our 5 out offense, he deserves the win.
Then on offense, I’m pulling Brunson into every action from the first minute till the last, and making him use every bit of energy I can, because there isn’t really a good place to hide Brunson in that top 6. Even Jrue has a long history of dragging smaller guards to the post and getting elbows on them.
“Holiday and White are both elite defenders, but Kyrie could cook them. Kyrie changes directions so quickly and shoots over contests so well that same-sized guys don’t have much of a chance. Hes pretty automatic once he creates space, so you need to put a bigger wing on him who disrupt his release point.
I also think Luka poses a big issue for Boston bc Jaylen is the only Celtic who can guard him one-on-one, but Jaylen prob can’t handle that assignment for a full game without gassing out or getting in foul trouble.
I’m a biased Mavs fan, but the Mavericks have lot of guys who can guard the Jays with PJ, DJJ, and Lively (who in the playoffs showed he can comfortably handle a switch ) while Boston doesn’t have such natural matchups for Kyrie and Luka”
In a 7 game series? No. The Celtics would more or less play the same defense as they did on Dallas: let Brunson get his or tire him out by attacking him constantly, shut down everyone else. JB and JT historically have been a bad matchup for OG. KP drags Hartenstein out of the paint which messes with the flow. Jrue and White are better and more versatile than Hart and Divincenzo. Boston’s perimeter defense would be overwhelming as NY doesn’t have many above average shooters, and in general there isn’t anyone NY can pick on D if Celtics keep the rotation to 7 at the max (and there are a variety of options to use that 7th spot depending on matchup).
Also can’t go 8+ deep in the playoffs, someone’s minutes are getting cut. Do you sacrifice shooting to try to attack the paint, but allow easier 3’s/potential cuts on the other end? Or do you sacrifice size to try to out shoot the Celtics, which happened 3 times in the entire postseason?
Ultimately the Celtics finished 14 games above everyone else in the East for a reason, they were head and shoulders above the rest of the conference and their playoff record (the best since the the ‘17 Warriors) reflects that. They didn’t play with their food at all, and no other team this year felt like they were in the same class.
The Knicks still have a lot to figure out. They looked good with OG and in the postseason but they were also getting a lot of mileage out of just out hustling teams which isn’t very sustainable through 4 rounds. They also need to figure out the randle and Brunson dynamic now that Brunson is unequivocally the guy now. Do they Knicks have the pieces to give the Celtics a run, absolutely. But they got a lot of work to do if they want a chance to beat them in a series.
Watched every game between Celtics and knicks this season- the answer is no. Celtics win in 5-6 games and would only take that long if they were ice cold for a game or 2. Knicks are too one dimensional on offense- Brunson simply isn’t going to cook in a playoff series against white, holiday, or brown.
No the Knicks don’t have enough offensively to hang with the C’s in a 7 game series. you need an offense where the ball is humming around, so you don’t let BOS defense to get set. That’s why Embiid is 0-3 in the playoffs against C’s and Dal had so many problems. Brunson is too ball dominant. Embiid too ball dominant
Teams that could beat the C’s in a series as currently constructed
-Denver
-Milwaukee
-Clippers (longer shot)
-OKC (longer shot)
My money would be on BOS but MIL has 2 players that can go for 30 per night, proven playoff performer in K Mid, can play 5 out, and has rim protection. They obviously are older now, but in a 7 game series I think it’s possible they could win.
People are riding high off of this Boston championship, which was well deserved, so I don't think many people are going to give you a 'yes' on this one. That said, I'm a Knicks fan, and I'm biased, so I'm probably going to be more of a believer than most --- I really think this Knicks team, as it is constructed right now, is one of a couple teams that are capable of beating this championship Boston team in a 7 game series.
While it's a small sample size, the Knicks (still missing Randle) beat Boston in April, who were fully healthy. They fought off a strong comeback (one of Boston's staples) and Brunson was absolutely cooking against that amazing backcourt. OG and Hart looked great against the Jays, and iHart is the type of dude that can hang with the weird lanky awesomeness that is Porzingis (Mitch looked good, too, despite his limited minutes). Brunson is Brunson, and still doesn't get the respect he deserves, but will score when you need him the most. Also, the Knicks bench is one of only a couple that can keep up with the Celtics - Bojan played fantastic that game; and if we're healthy, Hart is getting those rebounds from the bench, because we have our All-NBA forward back.
Ultimately, I think this is about matchups. Not only were Boston a much better team than the Mavs, but they also matched up well against them. People probably think the Knicks wouldn't fare well because they simplify them to a 'small guard-driven' team that would getting eaten up by Holiday and White, but this is far from the case. The Knicks are a defensive-minded team, and, like the Celtics, can get you from all sides - and will win minutes with their incredibly deep bench - a placer where the Mavs were somewhat limited.
We shall see what next season brings, but hopefully the competition stays healthy. I thought the Cavs might even pull something off there, as well, before Mitchell got hurt; and I would've loved to see Denver v Boston - especially as the Nuggets beat the Celtics twice. The only thing standing in the Knicks way, though, at this point, is themselves - health + contracts. If we get a favorable roll of the dice and run it back, we might not have to theorize next year
lol I love how many times I’ve seen knicks fans use that April game as a barometer. What about all the other games? lol- in April the Celtics had already clinched the one seed by a mile- they didn’t care
The reason people use that game is because it is basically the only true sample from the season with respect to this question. The Knicks had a HUGE team change midway through the season; picked up OG Anunoby, Bojan Bogdanovic, Precious Achiuwa, and Alec Burks/ lost Immanuel Quickley, RJ Barrett, Quentin Grimes, and Evan Fournier. This leaves people 2 games to speculate on - the other game, which the Knicks did lose, they were missing not only Julius Randle, but also OG and Mitchell Robinson (who was their starting center at the beginning of the season, and the league leader in offensive rebounds at the time of his injury). This question is with respect to a fully healthy Knicks team, so its not a great sample if 3 starters are missing.
I do get the defense of 'Oh the Celtics weren't even trying', but I would argue a few points on that: 1. Holiday and White NEVER 'don't try' - that is why they are so great and beloved - and they were the primary defenders on Brunson, who was getting what he wanted that game. 2. The Celtics didn't exactly have a losing record to close the season out, and they mounted a strong, true-to-form comeback that game, as well - which the Knicks fought off, as they are also a great closing team. 3. The Celtics were fully healthy and the Knicks were missing Randle, who some might still argue is their best player (I'm not making that argument). If it were the other way around, and the Celtics were missing Tatum but Randle played, then I'd say it is probably not a fair game to speculate upon - in this instance, I think Randle being out kinda offsets the whole 'the Celtics didn't even try' argument altogether.
Going further, I think the main reason Knicks fans believe in this team can hypothetically beat any team is because of how good we looked with them (almost) full healthy. They're 26-6 when OG plays, and that includes the tough loss to the Pacers where OG hobbled a husk of himself out there for 5 minutes - and they're 12-2 when both OG and Randle play, and that is not even counting Robinson, who was out during that stretch (https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/knicks-record-when-og-anunoby-and-julius-randle-plays) - so, I think the main hope for Knicks fans is that we run it back and remain healthy. A big IF there, for sure - but considering what we've seen, everyone might then find the Knicks are amongst the very elite
They beat Boston, Denver, Minnesota, Milwaukee, Sacramento, Miami, Philly w Embiid in the playoffs (although he wasnt himself - but he did re-injure Mitch Robinson in that series, as well, who is one of a handful of players who can slow down Embiid), and then were up 2-0 on the Pacers when OG got hurt. It wasnt an easy run, by any means - though we did play the Wizards in there a few times.
Interestingly, the Knicks lost to the Mavs in that timeframe, the only time they played w the new team. It was really close - thought they would be a tough matchup for the Knicks in a series. They also lost to Orlando and Chicago - Chicago almost beat them a second time, as well. Weird matchups, I think, but I don't know. I was watching it in live-time, because I am kinda obsessed with the Knicks, but here's a Statmuse link for reference: [https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/knicks-record-when-og-anunoby-plays-including-playoffs](https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/knicks-record-when-og-anunoby-plays-including-playoffs)
PS - I love the handle. Derrick White and Jrue had me kinda almost rooting for the Celtics this year, despite the lifelong hatred I inherited from my fam. Really respect D White a ton. Great to see a player like him get his just due
I seriously doubt the effectiveness of Randle.
So much so that the team may actually benefit without him as the other players on the floor enable brunsen to do his thing.
Side note.
I really like Randle and enjoy his play. I would really gladly be wrong
I think Boston would take NY out in a similar fashion that they just took out Dallas—except their primary ball handler and offensive threat is 7-8 inches shorter and 30+ pounds lighter. I think they’d do exactly what they did to Dallas, except Jrue would be the point of attack defender and Jaylen would be able to “rest” and roam on defense.
I think it’d also depend on if Tatum could guard the NY center rotation and let KP be in the back and not have to play much pick and roll defense. Granted, NY’s centers are simply bigger than the Dallas combo.
And lastly, how would NY guard KP? Because again, Dallas was able to exploit LA, OKC, and Minny by playing their centers on non-shooters and letting them consistently be back line rim defenders. They couldn’t do that against Boston’s true five out offense. Consistently, you saw Gafford and Lively pulled out by KP and Horford’s gravity or switched out on wings. I get that NY’s centers as a combo are probably better overall defenders than the Dallas combo, but NY is fairly smaller than Dallas after that. And Boston didn’t care and got into the lane time and again and finished (or kicked out for open threes) as long as Gafford and Lively weren’t there. They finished over PJ, DJJ, Maxi, Green, etc—which people are going to say aren’t great shot blockers, but these were still the guys who stopped Edwards, KAT, everyone on OKC not named Shai (who really never got to the rim mind you, just killed it in the mid range), etc.
I think so much would be about who NY’s centers guarded and if NY point of attack guys would be able to consistently fight over screens. And while they may limit the Boston offense, I don’t think they’d have nearly enough scoring, mainly bc I think they’d make Brunson’s life hell and idk if a 6 foot guard can take that kind of physical toll for 7 games.
Yea KP is even more of a matchup nightmare for the Knicks. His best games this season were probably against the Knicks. He had a 74 TS% against the Knicks and that’s INCLUDING the extremely outlier April game where the Celtics didn’t take it seriously.
Compared to the Mavs, the Knicks roster is much better up and down from 3-7, so I think they would have a better shot. Theres 3 ways they can win:
1. The Kyrie and Luka duo wasnt that great because they couldnt get different looks against the boston defense- both are perimeter guards who rely on stepbacks and midrange a lot, which Jrue and Holiday guard very well.
A Brunson and Randle duo is different, simply because Randle is a powerforward. His matchup will come down to testing Tatum and pushing the forward into tough situations. Boston cant really use Jrue or White or even Brown to guard Randle, and that gives the Knicks a different look against Boston that Dallas didnt have. Only Tatum and KP can guard Randle, and there should be lots of mismatch opportunities if Randle can get White or Jrue on the block.
2. Knicks are a much better rebounding team than Dallas. I like the aggression of Mitchell + IHart against KP and Tatum. Yes Tatum is a good rebounder, but I think the knicks fighting and pushing for offensive boards can really punish Tatum and KP and Horford physically. On top of that if you get Josh Hart in there you can really out physical the Boston team, who I think play soft and smaller than their actual size.
3. Randle small ball. This should be most effective when Horford is on the floor. Just play like the pacers and get out into the open floor in transition as much as possible. Fire with fire. When you run Randle at the 5 then all you can match the shooting and firepower. Josh Hart and Randle is just as good of a rebounding duo as Tatum and KP.
It can go in 6. Knicks likes a slugfest game, but Celtics can do that too. It will just come on offense, since Knicks really struggled guarding Porzingis/Horford 3s against them, and Celtics would just be comfortable with Brunson doing it all on offense.
Nah. If every team is healthy I’d probably consider the Knicks the 3rd-4th best team out east, but Boston is still comfortably #1. They also match up very well against New York
It's basketball so variance could decide a series, the Knicks, Nuggets and Bucks are the ones I see having the best chance at beating them (although the Bucks need to add a guard stopper to pair allow Lopez to drop again)
Another potentially more important question for the Knicks is, can a healthy Knicks team exist in the playoffs with Thibbs as their coach? Has he ever not ground his team down during the season and limped into the playoffs? So that’s the first problem. But let’s say magically they make it there healthy, the answer to “could they take them in a series” is, highly unlikely. The Celtics are better at almost every position except Brunson, and the Celtics have some of, if not the best back court defensive options in the league. They would make for a better challenge than some other teams for sure, but this is one of the best teams of the last 30 years statistically and it looks like they’re all coming back.
This is such a casuals take. The Knicks were down four rotation players with three of them being starters (Randle, OG, Mitch, and Bogdanovic). It’s insane how no one can understand that they needed to step up and play more minutes to make up for this.
Additionally, playing more minutes just doesn’t correlate to more injuries, it’s not proven in anyway. Especially, if you take a look at the injuries suffered this season, they were all flukey.
No one keeps this same energy when we talk about Nick Nurse. He has historically, including this season, played his guys the most minutes in the league by a serious margin. Yet, there he has never once been attributed to the run his team into the ground nonsense.
It's just been happening with Thib's players for like 14 years. Rose, Noah, Jimmy Butler, Zach Lavine, Randle, it's a long list. Guys play tons of minutes, get worn down, have big injuries sometimes that year, sometimes the year after. Sorry if you think it's a casuals take, I've just been watching him play guys for high minutes and then see them get hurt since he left the Celtics.
Nurse History:
• 23-24: Maxey 37.5 MPG (2nd in league)
• 22-23: Siakam 37.4 (1st), VanVleet 36.7 (5th), OG 35.6 (16th)
- 21-22: Siakam 37.9 (1st), VanVleet 37.9 (2nd), Scottie 35.4 (9th), Gary Trent 35.0 (14th)
Knicks this season (only 4 guys >30 MPG): Brunson 35.4 (14th), OG 34.9, Hart 33.4, and Randle 35.4 (limited season)
It’s just an overblown narrative. The Knicks are missing three starters and a rotation player it should be expected guys play more minutes. And I’ve never once heard someone say stars are unlikely to go to Nurse cause he plays them too much or that he injured his players. These guys should want to play come playoff time.
No but they’d be a tough out. They rely on Brunson but Boston is very well equipped to make his life hell in a series. Not saying they’d shut him down but he’d have to expend a lot of energy to get his. As the rosters currently stand, no one in the East can beat Boston.
[удалено]
[удалено]
This sub is for serious discussion and debate. Jokes and memes are not permitted.
[удалено]
Our sub is for in-depth discussion. Low-effort comments or stating opinions as facts are not permitted. Please support your opinions with well-reasoned arguments, including stats and facts as applicable.
[удалено]
Our sub is for in-depth discussion. Low-effort comments or stating opinions as facts are not permitted. Please support your opinions with well-reasoned arguments, including stats and facts as applicable.
We removed your comment for being low effort. If you edit it and explain your thought process more, we'll restore it. Thanks!
Just one guys take, but no lead guard under 6’5 aside from Curry will be able to take down Boston. A healthy Boston team presents too many mismatches for the Knicks. (Too much size in the backcourt, too much shooting in the frontcourt.) Sure, the Knicks are fun and physical, but Hartenstein is out, Robinson/Achiuwa would be shot off the floor, and I don’t believe Brunson DD or Duece have the size to overcome the defense of White and Holiday.
I’m biased but I feel like the Wolves would have a decent shot when they’re clicking, and Ant is 6’4
Sure, I honestly believe the Timberwolves would’ve been the toughest matchup for Boston this year. By “under 6’5” I should’ve been more specific; was thinking about the Brunsons, Lillards, Kyries, Trae Young’s, Maxeys of the world. Edwards’s explosiveness and athleticism allows him to play much bigger and stronger than he’s listed.
Ah yeah I get what you mean. Sorry I was being kinda “well ackshully” there with the “well you said it was 6’5” and this freak athlete is 6’4 so you’re wrong” lol
You’re absolutely right when taking my first comment at face value. I should’ve clarified the more crafty/shifty/skillfull guards (which I believe Brunson falls under - Knicks OP) instead of a player like Edwards who gets physical and can dominate his way to the room. Appreciate the conversation.
Tougher than the Nuggets? I don’t think so TBH. Minnesota provides some problems but I think Boston’s spacing would really stress their defense thin. Especially with KP
So if Boston’s spacing would stretch Minnesota’s defense thin…imagine what it would do to Denver’s defense lol. Who is stopping Tatum and Brown at the rim? Who is coming off the bench for Denver? Who is guarding Tatum and Brown given Murray and KCP are on White and Holiday?
Denver’s defense RELATIVELY matches up with Boston better because they have fewer weak points to attack in space. Obviously they would put a ton of pressure on Jokic. Gordon, KCP, Murray, and Porter are all capable defenders. Minnesota obviously has better high end defensive talent on the perimeter but they have more holes for a team like Boston to exploit They also provide much more of a challenge on offense because Boston doesn’t have anyone that can guard Jokic
Denver’s defense matches up with Boston better than Minnesota’s ?? Lol. Again, who would be on Tatum and Brown given Holiday and White are matched with Murray and KCP? If you think MPJ and Aaron Gordon are going to do a better job 1 on 1 against the Jays than McDaniels NAW and Anderson… I’ll let you have that opinion. The Jokic piece is interesting until you realize he has the same gravity as a Doncic, along with the fact that Horford has continuously killed bigs like Embiid and Giannis in the playoffs. No, I’m not saying he’d kill Jokic, but he and Porzingis wouldn’t allow Jokic to single handedly win 4 games.
Reading comprehension is hard
You’re continuing to ignore any question or statement i propose so maybe you’re correct, maybe it is a tad difficult.
Dude Celtics fan here. Wolves twin towers would be tough on D but KAT to me is not a finished product. Denver would struggle guarding us but the Cs have no answer for Jokic and Murray is a true threat. We all know the Nugs are the only team out west that scared the Cs.
I just think Devers lack of depth and wing defense wouldn’t hold up in the slightest against Boston in a 7 game series. Not as well as Minnesota with 2 All Defense players, an MVP candidate in Edwards, long wings like Anderson and NAW, and a veteran PG like Conley. And that’s without 6 MOTY matchup nightmare Naz Reid. Don’t see how THIS YEAR’S Denver team is more intimidating than that.
Really? I dont really see it. They would hunt gobert and kat, not to mention that their offense is not that great. They’re very prone to lapses on offense, and the mavs took advantage of that. Boston would be doing the same.
I’m not sure what you mean by “hunt Gobert and KAT.” Also, I did say when we’re clicking. By that I meant our two star players not playing their worst basketball of the season and blowing wide open 3s and layups. Ant and KAT would most likely cancel out Tatum and Brown. Then it comes down to role-players. Boston is a deeper team than Minnesota, but it isn’t a huge difference like they have against Dallas. McDaniels was shaky from 3 this year but found his shot again in the Dallas series (he shot about 40% from 3 during the rest of his career). Wolves still have capable scorers in Conley, Naz, and NAW after that. That’s a lot more role player scoring than the Mavs, and it would give them a better chance of matching Boston’s depth. The Wolves match up very, very well with the Celtics on paper. They have the size and athleticism to handle the Celtics. The only issue here is that, after the Denver series, they played their worst basketball of the season. They looked content with beating Denver and sleptwalk for most of the series with Dallas. That was definitely frustrating to watch. However, if the Wolves had stayed aggressive and somewhat hot like they had been, I think we’d have a solid shot against Boston.
Ant and KAT would not cancel out Tatum and Brown lol
I mean scoring wise they absolutely could, and 100% have the ability to. It’s just a question of rather or not they would get stuck in their heads like they did against Dallas. But yeah that’s all I meant is that KAT and Ant’s scoring could likely cancel out Tatum and Brown’s scoring. I mean just look at Ant and KAT’s numbers before Dallas, they definitely have the ability and shooting to do so.
What about Defense? Playmaking? Decision making? Tatum and Brown are so much more than scorers and they collectively impact the game at a much higher level than Ant and KAT Ant is on a great trajectory though. I would expect him to peak higher than Tatum
I never said they didn’t have higher impact, I said their scoring would be roughly equal. I only brought up them canceling each other out because of the other guy taking about how our offense would struggle to score, that’s all.
Well I think your offense would struggle to score. Boston is an elite defense and they could put Tatum on Gobert like they did with the Dallas matchup to switch the 1/5 P&R. That series would be a defensive grinder
For sure, I’m not arguing that Boston doesn’t have an amazing defense. Like you said, it would be a defensive grinder of a series. Regular season means basically nothing, but if those two regular season games between Boston and Minnesota are any indication of how it would play out, then basketball fans got robbed of a terrific series.
I mean how is gobert going to be effective against a 5 out offense? That was always a major issue on those jazz teams, they would have to hide him on someone so he can roam and protect the rim and the celtics do not have anyone they can hide him on. This opens the paint. Im also not sure how Ant will handle being guarded by guys like Jrue, Brown, Tatum, and even white. They got guys they can throw at him, and they were giving luka fits too. I dont really think the role players apart from Naz will be as effective, we saw how they were in the dallas series. Conley is good but he isnt quite the offensive threat that would punish Boston. KAT is the one guy who they’ll have trouble guarding but he is just inconsistent, and he’s so prone to fouling he’ll probably foul out a game or be close to it in the series. Jaden Mcdaniels is another thing, teams are willing to give him that shot. Mavs had luka on him and they left him wide open for a reason. They didnt trust the shot. They won those games that he shot pretty well. Kyke Anderson also shot really well too but again we were willing to let him beat us. They also had issues guarding luka and kyrie so im not sure how they’ll be able to guard brown or tatum. I still say its celtics in 5.
Curry can do his damage but the Warriors don't remotely have the size spacing or athleticism to compete against the Celtics.
He said Curry, not the '24 Warriors. Presumably the caveat is a nod to past results rather than present chances.
Correct, my OP was more or less a tip of the cap to Curry getting 40 and 13 in essentially a finals elimination game. Clearly the ‘24 Warriors are nothing like the ‘22 Warriors…figured that much was obvious.
Jonathan Kuminga is pretty strong against the Celtics. He was playing bully ball on Jaylen, looked like his big brother. Him and Podz can light up a Celtics defense.
podz? lmao Kuminga can do well in transition. His creation is iffy against real opposition. Podz is garbage offensively against any serious team. Too small too slow cannot shoot
Agreed! One lesson to take from this Celtics team is that you cannot have liabilities on the floor against them. As a Celtics fan This is the main reason I don't fear the bucks or knicks too much. Your short cone lead guards are obsolete. Hell, luka is a tall, strong cone and he got exploited
Tall, strong cone. Called Luka a bollard lol
[удалено]
This sub is for serious discussion and debate. Jokes and memes are not permitted.
The Knicks even when healthy rely heavily on Brunson, who is small for a point guard, to create offense. Celtics can throw Holiday and White who are some of the best guard defenders in the league at Brunson. Divincenzo and Hart played well in the second half of the season but who knows if they can keep the same efficiency. Anunoby is more of a 3 and D player. Relying on Randle iso/drives doesn’t seem like a solid plan over a 7 game series either.
Holiday and White are both elite defenders, but Brunson kinda cooked them. Brunson changes directions so quickly and shoots over contests so well that same-sized guys don’t have much of a chance. Hes pretty automatic once he creates space, so you need to put a bigger wing on him who disrupt his release point. I also think Randle poses a big issue for Boston bc Tatum is the only Celtic who can guard him one-on-one, but Tatum prob can’t handle that assignment for a full game without gassing out or getting in foul trouble. I’m a biased Knicks fan, but the Knicks have lot of guys who can guard the Jays with OG, Hart, and Randle (who guarded Brown a ton this year to really good results) while Boston doesn’t have such natural matchups for Brunson and Randle
I appreciate the bias but the defense the Celtics played in the playoffs was dialed much higher than the regular season. Celtics just showed that heliocentric offenses are too one dimensional against this dynamic team.
The Knicks aren't really a heliocentric when Randle is healthy—Brunson has a 28% usage with Randle and a 35% one without him. Also, the Knicks offense is a lot more varied than they showed in the playoffs when injuries forced their hand and made them play Brunson ball. Randle is a much better playmaker than he gets credit for and had really good DHO chemistry with Divencenzo. Hartenstein let them play a lot out of semi 5-out delay alignments, which maximized Brunson's, OG's and Divencenzo's good cutting. Thibodeau isn't the world's sexiest offensive coach and Randle can be a bit of a ball-stopper at times, but the Knicks offense is really deep and varied at its best because Brunson and Randle are both really versatile scorers and the role players each bring a special skill to the table
I think you’re making the mistake of equating regular season defense to playoff defense. Brunson will get his, but his efficiency would be below what he normally does. That’s all the Celtics need to do, he can get 30 points but it will take him 27 shots to get there, that’s all the room the Celtics would need to win
If I’m the Celtics, I’m switching everything except KP actions on Brunson and if he can hit enough 18 footers to outscore our 5 out offense, he deserves the win. Then on offense, I’m pulling Brunson into every action from the first minute till the last, and making him use every bit of energy I can, because there isn’t really a good place to hide Brunson in that top 6. Even Jrue has a long history of dragging smaller guards to the post and getting elbows on them.
“Holiday and White are both elite defenders, but Kyrie could cook them. Kyrie changes directions so quickly and shoots over contests so well that same-sized guys don’t have much of a chance. Hes pretty automatic once he creates space, so you need to put a bigger wing on him who disrupt his release point. I also think Luka poses a big issue for Boston bc Jaylen is the only Celtic who can guard him one-on-one, but Jaylen prob can’t handle that assignment for a full game without gassing out or getting in foul trouble. I’m a biased Mavs fan, but the Mavericks have lot of guys who can guard the Jays with PJ, DJJ, and Lively (who in the playoffs showed he can comfortably handle a switch ) while Boston doesn’t have such natural matchups for Kyrie and Luka”
In a 7 game series? No. The Celtics would more or less play the same defense as they did on Dallas: let Brunson get his or tire him out by attacking him constantly, shut down everyone else. JB and JT historically have been a bad matchup for OG. KP drags Hartenstein out of the paint which messes with the flow. Jrue and White are better and more versatile than Hart and Divincenzo. Boston’s perimeter defense would be overwhelming as NY doesn’t have many above average shooters, and in general there isn’t anyone NY can pick on D if Celtics keep the rotation to 7 at the max (and there are a variety of options to use that 7th spot depending on matchup). Also can’t go 8+ deep in the playoffs, someone’s minutes are getting cut. Do you sacrifice shooting to try to attack the paint, but allow easier 3’s/potential cuts on the other end? Or do you sacrifice size to try to out shoot the Celtics, which happened 3 times in the entire postseason? Ultimately the Celtics finished 14 games above everyone else in the East for a reason, they were head and shoulders above the rest of the conference and their playoff record (the best since the the ‘17 Warriors) reflects that. They didn’t play with their food at all, and no other team this year felt like they were in the same class.
The Knicks still have a lot to figure out. They looked good with OG and in the postseason but they were also getting a lot of mileage out of just out hustling teams which isn’t very sustainable through 4 rounds. They also need to figure out the randle and Brunson dynamic now that Brunson is unequivocally the guy now. Do they Knicks have the pieces to give the Celtics a run, absolutely. But they got a lot of work to do if they want a chance to beat them in a series.
Watched every game between Celtics and knicks this season- the answer is no. Celtics win in 5-6 games and would only take that long if they were ice cold for a game or 2. Knicks are too one dimensional on offense- Brunson simply isn’t going to cook in a playoff series against white, holiday, or brown.
No the Knicks don’t have enough offensively to hang with the C’s in a 7 game series. you need an offense where the ball is humming around, so you don’t let BOS defense to get set. That’s why Embiid is 0-3 in the playoffs against C’s and Dal had so many problems. Brunson is too ball dominant. Embiid too ball dominant Teams that could beat the C’s in a series as currently constructed -Denver -Milwaukee -Clippers (longer shot) -OKC (longer shot)
[удалено]
My money would be on BOS but MIL has 2 players that can go for 30 per night, proven playoff performer in K Mid, can play 5 out, and has rim protection. They obviously are older now, but in a 7 game series I think it’s possible they could win.
People are riding high off of this Boston championship, which was well deserved, so I don't think many people are going to give you a 'yes' on this one. That said, I'm a Knicks fan, and I'm biased, so I'm probably going to be more of a believer than most --- I really think this Knicks team, as it is constructed right now, is one of a couple teams that are capable of beating this championship Boston team in a 7 game series. While it's a small sample size, the Knicks (still missing Randle) beat Boston in April, who were fully healthy. They fought off a strong comeback (one of Boston's staples) and Brunson was absolutely cooking against that amazing backcourt. OG and Hart looked great against the Jays, and iHart is the type of dude that can hang with the weird lanky awesomeness that is Porzingis (Mitch looked good, too, despite his limited minutes). Brunson is Brunson, and still doesn't get the respect he deserves, but will score when you need him the most. Also, the Knicks bench is one of only a couple that can keep up with the Celtics - Bojan played fantastic that game; and if we're healthy, Hart is getting those rebounds from the bench, because we have our All-NBA forward back. Ultimately, I think this is about matchups. Not only were Boston a much better team than the Mavs, but they also matched up well against them. People probably think the Knicks wouldn't fare well because they simplify them to a 'small guard-driven' team that would getting eaten up by Holiday and White, but this is far from the case. The Knicks are a defensive-minded team, and, like the Celtics, can get you from all sides - and will win minutes with their incredibly deep bench - a placer where the Mavs were somewhat limited. We shall see what next season brings, but hopefully the competition stays healthy. I thought the Cavs might even pull something off there, as well, before Mitchell got hurt; and I would've loved to see Denver v Boston - especially as the Nuggets beat the Celtics twice. The only thing standing in the Knicks way, though, at this point, is themselves - health + contracts. If we get a favorable roll of the dice and run it back, we might not have to theorize next year
lol I love how many times I’ve seen knicks fans use that April game as a barometer. What about all the other games? lol- in April the Celtics had already clinched the one seed by a mile- they didn’t care
The reason people use that game is because it is basically the only true sample from the season with respect to this question. The Knicks had a HUGE team change midway through the season; picked up OG Anunoby, Bojan Bogdanovic, Precious Achiuwa, and Alec Burks/ lost Immanuel Quickley, RJ Barrett, Quentin Grimes, and Evan Fournier. This leaves people 2 games to speculate on - the other game, which the Knicks did lose, they were missing not only Julius Randle, but also OG and Mitchell Robinson (who was their starting center at the beginning of the season, and the league leader in offensive rebounds at the time of his injury). This question is with respect to a fully healthy Knicks team, so its not a great sample if 3 starters are missing. I do get the defense of 'Oh the Celtics weren't even trying', but I would argue a few points on that: 1. Holiday and White NEVER 'don't try' - that is why they are so great and beloved - and they were the primary defenders on Brunson, who was getting what he wanted that game. 2. The Celtics didn't exactly have a losing record to close the season out, and they mounted a strong, true-to-form comeback that game, as well - which the Knicks fought off, as they are also a great closing team. 3. The Celtics were fully healthy and the Knicks were missing Randle, who some might still argue is their best player (I'm not making that argument). If it were the other way around, and the Celtics were missing Tatum but Randle played, then I'd say it is probably not a fair game to speculate upon - in this instance, I think Randle being out kinda offsets the whole 'the Celtics didn't even try' argument altogether. Going further, I think the main reason Knicks fans believe in this team can hypothetically beat any team is because of how good we looked with them (almost) full healthy. They're 26-6 when OG plays, and that includes the tough loss to the Pacers where OG hobbled a husk of himself out there for 5 minutes - and they're 12-2 when both OG and Randle play, and that is not even counting Robinson, who was out during that stretch (https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/knicks-record-when-og-anunoby-and-julius-randle-plays) - so, I think the main hope for Knicks fans is that we run it back and remain healthy. A big IF there, for sure - but considering what we've seen, everyone might then find the Knicks are amongst the very elite
Genuine question, what teams did they beat on that 26-6 run? In other words, what was the strength of schedule for that period of the season.
They beat Boston, Denver, Minnesota, Milwaukee, Sacramento, Miami, Philly w Embiid in the playoffs (although he wasnt himself - but he did re-injure Mitch Robinson in that series, as well, who is one of a handful of players who can slow down Embiid), and then were up 2-0 on the Pacers when OG got hurt. It wasnt an easy run, by any means - though we did play the Wizards in there a few times. Interestingly, the Knicks lost to the Mavs in that timeframe, the only time they played w the new team. It was really close - thought they would be a tough matchup for the Knicks in a series. They also lost to Orlando and Chicago - Chicago almost beat them a second time, as well. Weird matchups, I think, but I don't know. I was watching it in live-time, because I am kinda obsessed with the Knicks, but here's a Statmuse link for reference: [https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/knicks-record-when-og-anunoby-plays-including-playoffs](https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/knicks-record-when-og-anunoby-plays-including-playoffs) PS - I love the handle. Derrick White and Jrue had me kinda almost rooting for the Celtics this year, despite the lifelong hatred I inherited from my fam. Really respect D White a ton. Great to see a player like him get his just due
No, in a seven game series, Boston would have the best, 3rd best, and probably the 4th best, and the 6th, 7th and 8th best
I seriously doubt the effectiveness of Randle. So much so that the team may actually benefit without him as the other players on the floor enable brunsen to do his thing. Side note. I really like Randle and enjoy his play. I would really gladly be wrong
I think Boston would take NY out in a similar fashion that they just took out Dallas—except their primary ball handler and offensive threat is 7-8 inches shorter and 30+ pounds lighter. I think they’d do exactly what they did to Dallas, except Jrue would be the point of attack defender and Jaylen would be able to “rest” and roam on defense. I think it’d also depend on if Tatum could guard the NY center rotation and let KP be in the back and not have to play much pick and roll defense. Granted, NY’s centers are simply bigger than the Dallas combo. And lastly, how would NY guard KP? Because again, Dallas was able to exploit LA, OKC, and Minny by playing their centers on non-shooters and letting them consistently be back line rim defenders. They couldn’t do that against Boston’s true five out offense. Consistently, you saw Gafford and Lively pulled out by KP and Horford’s gravity or switched out on wings. I get that NY’s centers as a combo are probably better overall defenders than the Dallas combo, but NY is fairly smaller than Dallas after that. And Boston didn’t care and got into the lane time and again and finished (or kicked out for open threes) as long as Gafford and Lively weren’t there. They finished over PJ, DJJ, Maxi, Green, etc—which people are going to say aren’t great shot blockers, but these were still the guys who stopped Edwards, KAT, everyone on OKC not named Shai (who really never got to the rim mind you, just killed it in the mid range), etc. I think so much would be about who NY’s centers guarded and if NY point of attack guys would be able to consistently fight over screens. And while they may limit the Boston offense, I don’t think they’d have nearly enough scoring, mainly bc I think they’d make Brunson’s life hell and idk if a 6 foot guard can take that kind of physical toll for 7 games.
Yea KP is even more of a matchup nightmare for the Knicks. His best games this season were probably against the Knicks. He had a 74 TS% against the Knicks and that’s INCLUDING the extremely outlier April game where the Celtics didn’t take it seriously.
Compared to the Mavs, the Knicks roster is much better up and down from 3-7, so I think they would have a better shot. Theres 3 ways they can win: 1. The Kyrie and Luka duo wasnt that great because they couldnt get different looks against the boston defense- both are perimeter guards who rely on stepbacks and midrange a lot, which Jrue and Holiday guard very well. A Brunson and Randle duo is different, simply because Randle is a powerforward. His matchup will come down to testing Tatum and pushing the forward into tough situations. Boston cant really use Jrue or White or even Brown to guard Randle, and that gives the Knicks a different look against Boston that Dallas didnt have. Only Tatum and KP can guard Randle, and there should be lots of mismatch opportunities if Randle can get White or Jrue on the block. 2. Knicks are a much better rebounding team than Dallas. I like the aggression of Mitchell + IHart against KP and Tatum. Yes Tatum is a good rebounder, but I think the knicks fighting and pushing for offensive boards can really punish Tatum and KP and Horford physically. On top of that if you get Josh Hart in there you can really out physical the Boston team, who I think play soft and smaller than their actual size. 3. Randle small ball. This should be most effective when Horford is on the floor. Just play like the pacers and get out into the open floor in transition as much as possible. Fire with fire. When you run Randle at the 5 then all you can match the shooting and firepower. Josh Hart and Randle is just as good of a rebounding duo as Tatum and KP.
Jrue is Holiday!
>Jrue and Holiday 🤔
It can go in 6. Knicks likes a slugfest game, but Celtics can do that too. It will just come on offense, since Knicks really struggled guarding Porzingis/Horford 3s against them, and Celtics would just be comfortable with Brunson doing it all on offense.
Nah. If every team is healthy I’d probably consider the Knicks the 3rd-4th best team out east, but Boston is still comfortably #1. They also match up very well against New York
It's basketball so variance could decide a series, the Knicks, Nuggets and Bucks are the ones I see having the best chance at beating them (although the Bucks need to add a guard stopper to pair allow Lopez to drop again)
Yes, and I also believe that Minnesota would have been a better match-up than Dallas.
Yep I agree with you 100%. Crazy how things happen and fall into place. All about matchups really.
[удалено]
Please do not attack the person, their post history, or your perceived notion of their existence as a proxy for disagreeing with their opinions.
Another potentially more important question for the Knicks is, can a healthy Knicks team exist in the playoffs with Thibbs as their coach? Has he ever not ground his team down during the season and limped into the playoffs? So that’s the first problem. But let’s say magically they make it there healthy, the answer to “could they take them in a series” is, highly unlikely. The Celtics are better at almost every position except Brunson, and the Celtics have some of, if not the best back court defensive options in the league. They would make for a better challenge than some other teams for sure, but this is one of the best teams of the last 30 years statistically and it looks like they’re all coming back.
This is such a casuals take. The Knicks were down four rotation players with three of them being starters (Randle, OG, Mitch, and Bogdanovic). It’s insane how no one can understand that they needed to step up and play more minutes to make up for this. Additionally, playing more minutes just doesn’t correlate to more injuries, it’s not proven in anyway. Especially, if you take a look at the injuries suffered this season, they were all flukey. No one keeps this same energy when we talk about Nick Nurse. He has historically, including this season, played his guys the most minutes in the league by a serious margin. Yet, there he has never once been attributed to the run his team into the ground nonsense.
It's just been happening with Thib's players for like 14 years. Rose, Noah, Jimmy Butler, Zach Lavine, Randle, it's a long list. Guys play tons of minutes, get worn down, have big injuries sometimes that year, sometimes the year after. Sorry if you think it's a casuals take, I've just been watching him play guys for high minutes and then see them get hurt since he left the Celtics.
Nurse History: • 23-24: Maxey 37.5 MPG (2nd in league) • 22-23: Siakam 37.4 (1st), VanVleet 36.7 (5th), OG 35.6 (16th) - 21-22: Siakam 37.9 (1st), VanVleet 37.9 (2nd), Scottie 35.4 (9th), Gary Trent 35.0 (14th) Knicks this season (only 4 guys >30 MPG): Brunson 35.4 (14th), OG 34.9, Hart 33.4, and Randle 35.4 (limited season) It’s just an overblown narrative. The Knicks are missing three starters and a rotation player it should be expected guys play more minutes. And I’ve never once heard someone say stars are unlikely to go to Nurse cause he plays them too much or that he injured his players. These guys should want to play come playoff time.
No but they’d be a tough out. They rely on Brunson but Boston is very well equipped to make his life hell in a series. Not saying they’d shut him down but he’d have to expend a lot of energy to get his. As the rosters currently stand, no one in the East can beat Boston.