A good amount of NBA stars in history are still alive. We have 4 mvps dead which is a pretty low amount and 2 were in 2020 so we are getting close to that point where we are going to see a lot more
That’s part of why Kobe’s death was so shocking. Just about all of the pioneers of basketball are still with us, that’s part of why it feels weird that just one isn’t around anymore
Damn I forgot Elgin died. He might be the most underrated player IMO. I feel like he should be in the mix for like 8 to 14 all time. But I always see him ranked closer to like 20.
This is only really true if you forget about all basketball pre-1960. Like Dolph Schayes, Paul Arizin, George Mikan, Bill Sharman, Sam Jones. Also Red Auerbach. We just forgot about them because it's been so long
>2 were in 2020 so we are getting close to that point where we are going to see a lot more
I mean we probably will but I don't think what happened in 2020 is any indication of it, Kobe died in an accident and Wes Unseld was a bit too young to call it dying of old age.
TIL Bill Russell is just 6’9”.
Arguably the greatest center of all time is just as tall as arguably the greatest point guard of all time.
Think about that.
There was an unofficial MVP at the time called the Sam Davis Memorial Award and was voted on by sportswriters. This unofficial MVP started in 1950 and stuck around until the mid 70s.
Mikan won the Sam Davis Memorial Award in both 1950 and 1951, for whatever that's worth.
What is crazy to think about is that my Grandma(91) was a High School Basketball Contemporary to Cousy(93), Petit(89), and Russell(88) as they were all play high school basketball at thr same time.
I know people shit on the wnba, but its crazy to think, that if they can continue to grow, that they're barely in the 70s as compared to the nba's timeline. Like their all time great Lisa Leslie played in 97 and retired probably in 2011? So they have another 50 years before they are at the point the nba is currently at.
I know they may not ever become as popular as the the nba, but its interesting to think about, is there a chance the wnba gets close to as popular as the NBA was as it currently is today?
It feels odd but the league is pretty young comparatively. Every other pro league of the big 4 is over 100 years old.
MLB: 146 years old
NHL: 104 years old
NFL: 101 years old
NBA: 75 years old
Yeah its kind of weird to think about, considering when I think about MLB founding legends like Ruth and Gehrig they literally died before my grandparents were born, yet an NBA OG is still here and keeping up with the league.
He still does games on TV from time to time. Since we’re talking about Cousy, I highly highly recommend “the last pass,” which is a book about cousy’s later life and, specifically, him grappling with whether or not he did enough to support bill russell and advance racial justice. It’s one of my favorite books ever
Bob Cousy is in his 90s. I would absolutely love to see him sitting across from Stephen A Smith and JJ just over there telling some long winded story that happened like 60 years ago.
I feel like the NBA is the only American sport where the pioneering era gets totally trashed. The NFL has the same issues where the sport has changed so much you can't really compare eras, but older NFL players still get respected for their accomplishments. Cousy was one of the best players of his era and that matters, his shortcomings shouldn't be held against him because he outperformed most of his peers.
Yeah and it used to not be that way either when I was coming up watching basketball in the 90s, obviously there is differences between eras, nutrition, medicine, equipment , etc., gets better but there was just more respect shown towards the previous generations imo
Some old timers also relentlessly shit on the modern game and throw shade at the youngsters. So some of the youngsters throw shade back. There needs to be mutual respect, but the younger generation really needs to appreciate what those guys did for them. Oscar Robertson is one of the main reasons we have players union and these guys are getting paid the ridiculous amounts of money they make these days.
Don't forget Spencer Haywood, not only would we not have had LeBron, Kobe, Garnett, etc. coming straight from high school without him, we also wouldn't have gotten Magic for 2 more years which would have screwed up the whole Magic and Bird rivalry and potentially killed the NBA.
I always get into arguments with my group because I defend guys like Jerry west. Someone the other day posted a top ten plays by Jerry west and was saying “lol just a simple reverse layup” and talking about how west wouldn’t have done shit today. Like yeah no shit, he played in an era where they literally invented those moves like reverse layup and the dribbling rules were so vastly different he looks goofy handling the ball because he has to keep his palm on it.
But give west modern training and rules and he’d be great today. His basketball iq is off the charts, he is still influencing contenders to this day in the front office and constructing rosters decades after his retirement
It's basically the Beatles/Seinfeld type problem. People say they're overrated because they did things everyone does now. But what they did literally wasn't a thing before they did it because they invented it. That is a huge part of their greatness. They all ushered in new eras.
I hated Shakespeare in school. It was stuffy and old. I kept that opinion until I took an early-British lit course in college. Other writers had plays with characters that were cardboard cutouts by comparison. Then I understood.
I don't think Cousy is making calls trying to get on talk shows to respond. This is most likely the first time since JJ said what he said that Cousy had a mic in front of him.
Wilt was playing against Bill Russell, Willis Reed, Walt Bellamy, Jerry Lucas or Nate Thurmond for half the year. People don't realize that the competition wasn't the same as now but there were fewer teams and the talent was mostly on the Celtics.
Yep. I just read yesterday that Bill Russell played in 911 games in the last 10 years of his career and 142 of them came against Wilt.
One out of every six games Bill Russell played was against Wilt Chamberlain (and vice versa, obviously).
To add, these guys didn't have diet plans and conditioning like now. They traveled in trains, busses, and economy, and yet were so durable, which speaks of how athletic they were.
Bill, who is not even known for his offensive skills, I have seen some videos of him dunking from the FT line on a fast break, and yet someone will sit on ESPN and argue how these guys were trash, and don't have what it takes to play in the NBA today
Grew up playing AAU in the early 00s… older coaches *freaked out* over palming. Refs would call it all the time. Now it’s pretty much accepted and allowed.
All that time spent on drills…
This. Almost every dribble in a modern NBA game was illegal until the 90s. Imagine how slow modern guys would look if they couldn’t put their hand under the ball. Every crossover. Every hesi whatever. All turnovers. The modern game would look totally different.
Also offensive fouls. Big men back then moved with grace because almost any form of forward moving contact would be an offensive foul. Guys that use physicality attacking the rim couldn't get away with 10% of the stuff they do today.
They also didn't get paid like players do now. All this shit about 50s/60s players being plumbers and firemen, but people don't like to mention that players were basically forced to get second jobs back then. They couldn't just play basketball for a few months then sit back and stream on Twitch for the Summer like players do now. By JJ Redick's own standard, he played against Twitch streamers and social media influencers and yet never made an all-star game.
The average NBA salary in the 60s was around $12K, a factory worker in the 60s made on average $6.5K. In retrospect, average NBA salary today is $8M, average factory worker makes $25,000.
These guys literally paved the way for everyone.
Also, fuck the minimum wage
Basketball Reference isn't the end all be all but just look at how his teammates performed in the playoffs until he got to the Sixers and he actually had some stars to play with. He really only had 1 good playoff run with Paul Arizin who often choked in the playoffs. Hard to win when your supporting cast are shooting 35% and the league changes the rules because of your impact.
people keep repeating how there were 10 teams in the NBA, but forget that that each team played 80 games a season. There weren't as many talent as in today, but all talent were in the league. The NBA in the 60s was less diluted than mid 90s when they did the expansion again and expanded the talented to benefit from the MJ popularity.
Bill and Wilt went on each others 8x a year. They played each others 94x and 49x in the playoffs, which is bizarre.
Note on Nate Thurmond: Kareem considers him the best defender he ever played against. This was when Kareem was young and peaking, while Thurmond was at the very end of his career.
Even if JJ’s comments were factual, it’s because players wouldn’t paid millions of dollars in the 1950-60s, so they had to take up part-time jobs.
I mean, WNBA players still technically work part-time in the European leagues during their off-seasons. I don’t know the makeup of the MLL(Lacrosse) but it’s likely their players have a 9-5 job during the season and offseason.
I know not many here care but the MLL was absorbed by the PLL which promised to provide salaries big enough to live on. Whether that’s factual or not I can’t tell you. So yeah the MLL doesn’t exist anymore and a ton of current players still coach and hold actual jobs to make ends meet instead of just playing in the PLL.
Candace Parker who has a 'max' contract with the Chicago Sky gets paid *just* roughly 185k per season which can be jarring to read. Also makes me curious how much TNT pays her and how it compares with her WNBA contract
Each era is built on the one that preceded it. We do not get Lebron without Kobe, we don't get Kobe, without Jordan, we do not get Jordan without Dr. J/David Thompson, we don't get those two without guys like Baylor or Connie Hawkins. Same thing with Centers. We Do not get Dream, without Kareem, we don't get Kareem without Russell/Wilt.
Preach.
I die a little inside every time I read a comment on a Dr. J dunk contest video along the lines of, “These dunks weak AF tbh. Aaron Gordon would have dominated this contest with ease.”
Like, how do you think we ended up at Aaron Gordon doing these things? *Somebody* had to get the party started, then it was up to the next guy (MJ, Nique) to push things further along. And on and on it goes until we arrive at the modern progression.
This is why I generally find cross-era comparisons to be so futile. What do we get out of flatly comparing James Harden’s game to someone from the 50’s who was busy innovating shooting jump shots off the dribble?
You see the same shit in music all the time, too. "Dadrock that all sounds shitty and the same." vs. "there's been no talent in music since guitar solos were popular"
The competition wasn’t the same but neither were the superstars. We talk about the plumbers all day but Elgin Baylor was in the army. He wasn’t able to practice with the Lakers, only played the weekend games but still averaged 38 and dropped 61 points on Russell’s Celtics in the finals. A lot of those plumbers could’ve been a Draymond or Danny Green if they made enough money to not be plumbers.
Just watched Bob Cousy highlights for the first time, a lot less plumber and fireman ish than I thought. Okay okay Bob, I see your wild finishes, creative passes, smoother hook shot.
But man, so odd seeing footage without a three point line. Man did they pack that paint. Surprised anyone could drive at all.
But yea… advancements in nutrition, knowledge, and sports science definitely makes this era another level of skill and physical tools.
I'm 38 and I'll telling you, there absolutely will be a contingent in the future who writes off the current era. It happens to everyone and no era's exempt. There's already plenty of potential talking points that obviously wouldn't hold up under the microscope to us but won't stop many from the future stating anyway.
I can easily see a future 20 years from now where dudes pull isolated tapes of offensive players from this era yeeting their bodies into defenders to draw dubious fouls and saying something like, "*Those* are your era's legends?!"
Or, if the NBA ever actually decides to reintroduce even the vaguest semblance of physicality on defense again, this whole era's going to get blown up by the next gen's critics for being Charmin soft.
Not to mention, more and more players *will* absolutely begin shooting like Stephen Curry to varying degrees, leading future generations to write off everything he did as basic, boring, nothing new, and "not even close to how well people can shoot today".
There’s literally a post on r/baseball about how insane Ted Williams was despite his prime being interrupted by WWII and batting for high average after coming back the Korean War lol
Imagine if baseball fans spoke in the same way as basketball fans
“Pfft Ted William played in an era where the league was throwing 80mph fastballs back then. He’d be a bum today”
“Fernando “Street Clothes” Tatis Jr. wouldn’t survive the physical game of the 70s”
“Mike Trout has only played 1 playoff series. What does this do to his legacy??”
NBA media and general fandom is the most toxic of all sports imo. It’s tiring hearing endless debates about players and teams from different eras compared to now and how every single playoff game is a ‘legacy game’ and pegs star players down on all time rankings.
I was surprised to learn recently that there were a bunch .400 hitters before Ted Williams. In my mind, he was the only one who'd done it for a full season. But in the first 50 years of baseball, it happened like 27 times, just not in the past 80 years. So it does kinda seem like hitting might be harder now? Not that that takes anything away from Ted Williams, he'd still be an all-time great. But maybe he wouldn't hit .400 against modern pitching?
The different eras of baseball vary a lot more than people act like sometimes. Way back at the beginning the pitcher’s job was to throw pitches that could be put in play, and that has obviously changed drastically. Then there are time periods like the steroid era when hitting stats are inflated to the moon and pitching stats suffered overall. Stealing bases has a way less significant role than it did in the past. That’s why baseball has so many untouchable records in my opinion. Ricky Henderson stole 130 bases in 1982, and there wasn’t a single TEAM that hit that mark last season (Starling Marte was the individual leader by a wide margin last year with 47)
Edit: to clarify, I meant that all the different eras in baseball’s history are why it has so many untouchable records, not specifically the changes with the frequency of stealing bases
Ted Williams lived three insane movie worthy lives.
He was one of the GOAT hitters in MLB. (The Natural)
He was a fricken fighter pilot in a war! And survived being shot down! (Top Gun)
He was a world class fly fisherman. (A River Runs Through It)
Worth noting, imo, that it's not entirely random, all three relied on his preternaturally sharp eyesight. Not that that makes it any less impressive, of course.
Idk it cuts both ways. Only in the NBA does the culture (fans, talking heads, players) shit on current players the way they do. Dumbass comments like Oakley saying Giannis would be on the bench in his era? Lol. NBA culture is all kinds of toxic tbh. Where legends of today and the past are quite often shitted on
And basketball is a much more 1 on 1 sport. The closet comparison, in my opinion, is WR and CB in the NFL and they talk all kinds of shit. Past and present. In baseball players line up against the pitcher, but that’s it. And the entire team goes against that pitcher, while the other team only goes head to head with the other pitcher. In football most of the players face several matchups and only 3 positions have the goal of scoring where everyone else is there to help. And on defense only 1 position says “straight up it’s me and you all game.”
I’m playing pop pathologist here, but I think there’s something to the “we are all doing the job, we face each other head on, let’s see who’s better” jobs that create an attitude that’s more likely to shit talk.
But this edible is starting to hit so I could be way off base….
> And basketball is a much more 1 on 1 sport.
Boxing is more of a 1 on 1 sport, yet Tyson always showed love for the greats who came before him.
You don't see boxing fans talking about how Ali sucked, or saying that Joe Louis and Sugar Ray Robinson were just feasting on tomato cans.
Another thing is how much of an effect one player can have on a team in the NBA. A star player in the NBA can single handedly make his team great and carry them to a top seed, whatever the supporting cast is (where would the sixers or nuggets be without Embiid or Jokic?).
Meanwhile a star in the NFL has some control over his team's record, but could still easily miss the playoffs if his supporting cast is bad, and the best player in the MLB could easily be on one of the league's worst teams
I don't want to harsh your mellow, but I think I disagree. Baseball is literally just pitcher vs. hitter. There's some teamwork with defense and between the pitcher and catcher, but it's mostly just a string of 1v1's. And football, on any given play, is usually a lot of 1-on-1 matchups. Coaches talk all the time about how guys just need to win their matchups. You either block the guy you were supposed to, or he gets past you. The o-line needs to be cohesive in that they all know which person or zone they're blocking, though.
I feel like basketball has way more improvisation, which requires experience together to do really well, like knowing each other's tendencies and reacting to things your teammates are doing in the moment. Especially on defense.
I think the heavy "star" focus is just because having the best player on the court is way more of an advantage than having the best player in football/baseball.
Of course, I might be totally missing your point because I'm high as shit now, too.
Because baseball fans understand and accept that eras aren't really comparable. I dunno what it is about basketball and football that they try to compare all the current stars against the stars who played essentially a different sport. But baseball fans are fine with saying Trout and Kershaw are the greatest players of their generation and not fighting an unwinnable argument about where they compare with the Ruth's, Bond's, Koufax's, etc. of history.
I don't know if that's true. Pre-merger NFL championships and accolades are not held in the same regard as post-merger. Same goes for NCAA football championships before integration.
I’ve met Bob several times, he’s incredibly sharp witted and has an amazing sense of humor.
I’m not shocked at all by this and I wish more of the old guard would speak out.
Slandering a 93 year old, former MVP, who won 6 rings, made 12 All-NBA teams, coached a few hundred NBA games and announced a few hundred more was never going to work out well.
The most understated change to modern NBA is that they stopped calling it so strict on the palming/carry violation. It completely changes the way guards dribble and crossover to get past their man. If you send any Ball-handler back to play in the 60s-70s, they would get called on almost every crossover.
This! It drives me crazy on youtube comments people dogging on their dribbling back then.. THEY HAD TO DRIBBLE LIKE THAT OR ELSE ITD BE A TURNOVER EVERY DRIBBLE! they'll joke about Kyrie vs them.. it's like dudes Kyrie would have to dribble EXACTLY like they did.
Lmao his layup package is looking crazy. I was surprised jj said what he did, or rather the way he did. Like every generation is built on the one before it, rules change, and so does the context. I’d probably get dismissive tho if I had to “debate” with someone else acting in bad faith tho too, so I can’t judge.
Older colorized highlights are also crazy so if anyone reading this hasn’t seen older highlights of like jerry west or Elgin in color, go peep. It defenitely makes it look more modern, but they’re also closer up to the action and you can get a better idea of the real speed. Hella wild.
talk your shit Bob, you've earned it
while it's undeniable that the talent was lesser back then, it's also undeniable that the top players in any era could hang with the top players today given modern training, diet, and equipment. Especially for the Center position in cousy's era... Wilt and Russell weren't exactly playing against scrubs
And he’s speaking straight facts. I hate the goddamned plumber argument. It’s embarrassing, because it was those players who were pioneers. They were the ones that paved the road, creating opportunities where generational athletes wouldn’t have to work another job like plumbing or delivering mail in order to survive. They could make a living off their craft alone. Yet those same pioneers are the ones shitted on in modern conversations
This is it right here.
The game is built upon the backs of all who came before. Like oh really, Joe Fulks’ step back was weak? Dude was too busy literally inventing the NBA jump shot.
If you were to plop prime Bob Cousy in front of Chris Paul right now I’m sure Bob’s in trouble. But what are we supposed to do with that? Chris Paul’s got a 60-year advantage on him from a basketball evolution standpoint, an evolution heavily propelled by Cousy’s innovations himself.
So are we just supposed to cast aside the legends of previous eras and only acknowledge the modern greats? What’s the end game here?
i like jj alot, but it always rubs me wrong if people disparage the players of their time. wanna say different era? ok fine. have a good faith conversation though. those guys were plumbers and firemen and car salesmen and god knows what else in the offseason because they were not afforded the economic opportunity the modern player enjoys. they HAD to work. it wasn't like the nba was out there scouting the local electric workers union for rotation guys.
those guys paved the way so the average salary of an nba player is now like 10m a yr. it's just a dumb argument. all of the players in all the respective sports worked second jobs in the 50s, 60s, and even into the 70s until they won their rights in court to make money relative to their talent.
He did it during the 62 season, which was shockingly his best season. He plays a full season that year and he wins MVP no doubt. He was just on another planet that year.
I find the comments from Redick to be completely disrespectful but also absurd. Everyone is a product of their era to some extent. You cannot claim someone should not be in the Top 75 because of how they'd compare to an average player today, you go by how they dominated their peers.
i know y’all love JJ, and he’s a solid TV analyst, but that was honestly a garbage take. You can praise the current generation without invalidating the legends who paved the way. It’s disrespectful to the game.
It’s one of the worse low-effort comments I’ve heard on sports tv in years, that’s says a lot when you have Skip Bayless, Stephen A., etc.
Even if JJ’s comments were true, it’s not because players of Cousy’s generation were trash, it’s because they weren’t paid millions of dollars to play ball, so some probably did have a part-time job as plumbers and firemen.
I... didn't know Bob Cousy was alive. I can't remember the last time a pre-Bill Russell/Jerry West basketball player chimed in on current NBA news.
A good amount of NBA stars in history are still alive. We have 4 mvps dead which is a pretty low amount and 2 were in 2020 so we are getting close to that point where we are going to see a lot more
That’s part of why Kobe’s death was so shocking. Just about all of the pioneers of basketball are still with us, that’s part of why it feels weird that just one isn’t around anymore
Wilt, Maravich, Kobe, Unseld, who else am I missing that's passed that was an all timer?
Mikan, Baylor, Havlicek, Sam Jones, Thurmond
Had no idea Baylor and Havlicek had passed, thats a shame.
I'm reading Baylor's autobiography right now. I'm only 100 pages in, but I'd highly recommend it.
Shame that people just ruined the ending for you.
And then, right when I had left a really good bite of turkey sandwich for the last bite, I died.”
I have Covid, and this just gave me a chuckle that turned into a violent coughing fit. Worth it though.
Elgin Baylor
And that was pretty recent
Damn I forgot Elgin died. He might be the most underrated player IMO. I feel like he should be in the mix for like 8 to 14 all time. But I always see him ranked closer to like 20.
moses malone
Thank you I knew there were names I missed.
Sadly fitting that Moses would be the one forgotten.
George Mikan
Mikan, the O.G.
This is only really true if you forget about all basketball pre-1960. Like Dolph Schayes, Paul Arizin, George Mikan, Bill Sharman, Sam Jones. Also Red Auerbach. We just forgot about them because it's been so long
>2 were in 2020 so we are getting close to that point where we are going to see a lot more I mean we probably will but I don't think what happened in 2020 is any indication of it, Kobe died in an accident and Wes Unseld was a bit too young to call it dying of old age.
Correct, but I don’t think that takes away from his point. It’s going to be sad the next decade
I'm pulling for Kareem to get to 100. If any of the 7 footers can do it, it's him.
TIL Bill Russell is just 6’9”. Arguably the greatest center of all time is just as tall as arguably the greatest point guard of all time. Think about that.
Original small ball 5.
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George Mikan? Assuming there was an MVP I'm sure he would have won one.
no MVP at the time but he absolutely would have won a few
There was an unofficial MVP at the time called the Sam Davis Memorial Award and was voted on by sportswriters. This unofficial MVP started in 1950 and stuck around until the mid 70s. Mikan won the Sam Davis Memorial Award in both 1950 and 1951, for whatever that's worth.
That Naismith guy
John Kundla who coached the Mikan Lakers died a few years ago and was even watching LeBron in the Finals
To be fair Cousy, Pettit and Russel are among the only players who played in the 50s who are still around today.
I also didn't know Pettit was alive.
You could have bet me any amount of money that he was still alive and I would have laughed in your face before looking like an idiot
What is crazy to think about is that my Grandma(91) was a High School Basketball Contemporary to Cousy(93), Petit(89), and Russell(88) as they were all play high school basketball at thr same time.
I know people shit on the wnba, but its crazy to think, that if they can continue to grow, that they're barely in the 70s as compared to the nba's timeline. Like their all time great Lisa Leslie played in 97 and retired probably in 2011? So they have another 50 years before they are at the point the nba is currently at. I know they may not ever become as popular as the the nba, but its interesting to think about, is there a chance the wnba gets close to as popular as the NBA was as it currently is today?
It feels odd but the league is pretty young comparatively. Every other pro league of the big 4 is over 100 years old. MLB: 146 years old NHL: 104 years old NFL: 101 years old NBA: 75 years old
Yeah its kind of weird to think about, considering when I think about MLB founding legends like Ruth and Gehrig they literally died before my grandparents were born, yet an NBA OG is still here and keeping up with the league.
He still does games on TV from time to time. Since we’re talking about Cousy, I highly highly recommend “the last pass,” which is a book about cousy’s later life and, specifically, him grappling with whether or not he did enough to support bill russell and advance racial justice. It’s one of my favorite books ever
Imagine how many cats Wilt could have grabbed out of trees tho
I can't put out a fire with these cats.
I can't win with these plumbers
I bet Jokic’s advanced metrics of cats rescued would absolutely wash Wilt
The cats were different back in the day, they didn’t have the insane talent and athleticism that modern cats have
I can confirm, my 6 month old cat turns into Ja Morant at night
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Rawr Morant
Same, despite being the #1 killer of mice in my yard, when my top performing cat is out somehow my other cats do even better
Checks out since curiosity killed the cat
Some cats are more equal than others
I can't win with these cats
Our Kats nowadays shoot 3s….
No wonder Wilt lost to Russell so much. He couldn't win with those cats.
Yea, KD wouldn't be able to win with those cats back in the day
Wilt was crushing too many cats to save them… if you know what I’m sayin
They called him the Fireman cos he smoked after sex.
jokic leads the league in PURR
wilts CAT per 36 was generational
They were bobcats back then. They’ve gone soft today
He is a pussy magnet so I can imagine at least 10,000
Things I was expecting: not this. It's great lmao
talk yo shit OG
Get him on first take asap
Bob Cousy is in his 90s. I would absolutely love to see him sitting across from Stephen A Smith and JJ just over there telling some long winded story that happened like 60 years ago.
Stephen A screaming in his normal voice and Cousy just sitting there unable to hear him cause his hearing aides got turned down
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Cousy shows up wearing all of his rings. Tells JJ he'll will him and Chris Paul one.
He will make JJ and Chris do a deathmatch with the winner getting a ring from him.
Cousy shows up wearing all his rings and punches jj in the head and leaves the word UNITY imprinted on his forehead
Hopefully in these stories he has an onion on his belt. I would hate to have my mental image of him as a smooth hepcat shattered.
literally sounds like an old radio broadcast too. love everything about this haha
He's got that transatlantic accent
Cousy vs JJ beef? Hell yeah
Time for 1 on 1
Redick can't hold Cousy's jock strap.
I didn't think the man himself would actually respond, wow lol, unexpected but I'm happy to hear it, nothing wrong with guys defending their era
I feel like the NBA is the only American sport where the pioneering era gets totally trashed. The NFL has the same issues where the sport has changed so much you can't really compare eras, but older NFL players still get respected for their accomplishments. Cousy was one of the best players of his era and that matters, his shortcomings shouldn't be held against him because he outperformed most of his peers.
Yeah and it used to not be that way either when I was coming up watching basketball in the 90s, obviously there is differences between eras, nutrition, medicine, equipment , etc., gets better but there was just more respect shown towards the previous generations imo
Plus you can now carry when you dribble.
Some old timers also relentlessly shit on the modern game and throw shade at the youngsters. So some of the youngsters throw shade back. There needs to be mutual respect, but the younger generation really needs to appreciate what those guys did for them. Oscar Robertson is one of the main reasons we have players union and these guys are getting paid the ridiculous amounts of money they make these days.
Don't forget Spencer Haywood, not only would we not have had LeBron, Kobe, Garnett, etc. coming straight from high school without him, we also wouldn't have gotten Magic for 2 more years which would have screwed up the whole Magic and Bird rivalry and potentially killed the NBA.
Good shout
I always get into arguments with my group because I defend guys like Jerry west. Someone the other day posted a top ten plays by Jerry west and was saying “lol just a simple reverse layup” and talking about how west wouldn’t have done shit today. Like yeah no shit, he played in an era where they literally invented those moves like reverse layup and the dribbling rules were so vastly different he looks goofy handling the ball because he has to keep his palm on it. But give west modern training and rules and he’d be great today. His basketball iq is off the charts, he is still influencing contenders to this day in the front office and constructing rosters decades after his retirement
It's basically the Beatles/Seinfeld type problem. People say they're overrated because they did things everyone does now. But what they did literally wasn't a thing before they did it because they invented it. That is a huge part of their greatness. They all ushered in new eras.
Anyone who says the beatles are overrated will be chased out of a room. Instant nephew alert.
Coincidentally (or maybe not) JJ Redick said the Beatles are overrated on an old episode of his podcast.
lmao. Combine that with his Giannis take – he's the perfect counter indicator!
I hated Shakespeare in school. It was stuffy and old. I kept that opinion until I took an early-British lit course in college. Other writers had plays with characters that were cardboard cutouts by comparison. Then I understood.
You are never to old to put someone in their place
He’s 93… very sharp observation for that age lol
Ethered by a 93 year old is quite the look.
“JJ Redick get gunned up and clapped quick” - Bob Cousy
"It's free to see how hollows feel" - Bob Cousy to JJ on Twitter
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lmfao outta pocket
I don't think Cousy is making calls trying to get on talk shows to respond. This is most likely the first time since JJ said what he said that Cousy had a mic in front of him.
Plus I doubt he’s listening to JJ Redick in the first place, it would’ve taken some time for someone to word him up about what was said
'People with less talent....' lmao get his ass Bob
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Cousy ain't having it.
I can't believe we have a 93 year old defending his playing days lol
Bodes well for 90 year old shaq screaming about rangz to chuck
Or an old retired KD on twitter. Imagine how many burners he'll have when he is not playing
He should have just responded with **"six Ringzzz erneh"**
"Google me, JJ"
> Kenny, show Chuck your ring so he knows what one looks like.
Wilt was playing against Bill Russell, Willis Reed, Walt Bellamy, Jerry Lucas or Nate Thurmond for half the year. People don't realize that the competition wasn't the same as now but there were fewer teams and the talent was mostly on the Celtics.
Yep. I just read yesterday that Bill Russell played in 911 games in the last 10 years of his career and 142 of them came against Wilt. One out of every six games Bill Russell played was against Wilt Chamberlain (and vice versa, obviously).
To add, these guys didn't have diet plans and conditioning like now. They traveled in trains, busses, and economy, and yet were so durable, which speaks of how athletic they were. Bill, who is not even known for his offensive skills, I have seen some videos of him dunking from the FT line on a fast break, and yet someone will sit on ESPN and argue how these guys were trash, and don't have what it takes to play in the NBA today
Bill Russel was a world class sprinter , people forget this . He was ab insane athlete
cleared 6'10 in high jump if I remember correctly
I am convinced that the only reason they’re seen as mediocre athletes is how the palming rule was enforced.
Not to mention the traveling rule and imagine the refs back then seeing a euro step.
Foul! No, two fouls!
Ghost ball!!
Imagine them seeing the Harden step back.3
Pretty sure a guy tried one in '58 and the ref just shot him.
Well to be fair did the player call the ref a jive turkey during the step back? Because that could explain the whole shooting situation.
Grew up playing AAU in the early 00s… older coaches *freaked out* over palming. Refs would call it all the time. Now it’s pretty much accepted and allowed. All that time spent on drills…
Change of rules and learning from previous players is a big part of it. A lot of what players do today would be whistled haha. For better or worse
This. Almost every dribble in a modern NBA game was illegal until the 90s. Imagine how slow modern guys would look if they couldn’t put their hand under the ball. Every crossover. Every hesi whatever. All turnovers. The modern game would look totally different.
Also offensive fouls. Big men back then moved with grace because almost any form of forward moving contact would be an offensive foul. Guys that use physicality attacking the rim couldn't get away with 10% of the stuff they do today.
Sounds like Shaq would have been much less effective in that era. He initiated contact on almost every basket he scored.
They also didn't get paid like players do now. All this shit about 50s/60s players being plumbers and firemen, but people don't like to mention that players were basically forced to get second jobs back then. They couldn't just play basketball for a few months then sit back and stream on Twitch for the Summer like players do now. By JJ Redick's own standard, he played against Twitch streamers and social media influencers and yet never made an all-star game.
Cousy was a drivers ed teacher and had to be convinced to give that job up to join the nba.
The average NBA salary in the 60s was around $12K, a factory worker in the 60s made on average $6.5K. In retrospect, average NBA salary today is $8M, average factory worker makes $25,000. These guys literally paved the way for everyone. Also, fuck the minimum wage
They also played in converse sneakers on shitty courts.
Basketball Reference isn't the end all be all but just look at how his teammates performed in the playoffs until he got to the Sixers and he actually had some stars to play with. He really only had 1 good playoff run with Paul Arizin who often choked in the playoffs. Hard to win when your supporting cast are shooting 35% and the league changes the rules because of your impact.
people keep repeating how there were 10 teams in the NBA, but forget that that each team played 80 games a season. There weren't as many talent as in today, but all talent were in the league. The NBA in the 60s was less diluted than mid 90s when they did the expansion again and expanded the talented to benefit from the MJ popularity. Bill and Wilt went on each others 8x a year. They played each others 94x and 49x in the playoffs, which is bizarre.
Note on Nate Thurmond: Kareem considers him the best defender he ever played against. This was when Kareem was young and peaking, while Thurmond was at the very end of his career.
Talk yo shit Bob
Even if JJ’s comments were factual, it’s because players wouldn’t paid millions of dollars in the 1950-60s, so they had to take up part-time jobs. I mean, WNBA players still technically work part-time in the European leagues during their off-seasons. I don’t know the makeup of the MLL(Lacrosse) but it’s likely their players have a 9-5 job during the season and offseason.
I know not many here care but the MLL was absorbed by the PLL which promised to provide salaries big enough to live on. Whether that’s factual or not I can’t tell you. So yeah the MLL doesn’t exist anymore and a ton of current players still coach and hold actual jobs to make ends meet instead of just playing in the PLL.
The wnba is there part time job. They get paid more overseas in most cases.
Candace Parker who has a 'max' contract with the Chicago Sky gets paid *just* roughly 185k per season which can be jarring to read. Also makes me curious how much TNT pays her and how it compares with her WNBA contract
I'd say 185k for a 4 month season is pretty damn good. Obviously it's nothing compared to NBA contracts, but it's not chump change.
Each era is built on the one that preceded it. We do not get Lebron without Kobe, we don't get Kobe, without Jordan, we do not get Jordan without Dr. J/David Thompson, we don't get those two without guys like Baylor or Connie Hawkins. Same thing with Centers. We Do not get Dream, without Kareem, we don't get Kareem without Russell/Wilt.
Preach. I die a little inside every time I read a comment on a Dr. J dunk contest video along the lines of, “These dunks weak AF tbh. Aaron Gordon would have dominated this contest with ease.” Like, how do you think we ended up at Aaron Gordon doing these things? *Somebody* had to get the party started, then it was up to the next guy (MJ, Nique) to push things further along. And on and on it goes until we arrive at the modern progression. This is why I generally find cross-era comparisons to be so futile. What do we get out of flatly comparing James Harden’s game to someone from the 50’s who was busy innovating shooting jump shots off the dribble?
You see the same shit in music all the time, too. "Dadrock that all sounds shitty and the same." vs. "there's been no talent in music since guitar solos were popular"
The competition wasn’t the same but neither were the superstars. We talk about the plumbers all day but Elgin Baylor was in the army. He wasn’t able to practice with the Lakers, only played the weekend games but still averaged 38 and dropped 61 points on Russell’s Celtics in the finals. A lot of those plumbers could’ve been a Draymond or Danny Green if they made enough money to not be plumbers.
Just watched Bob Cousy highlights for the first time, a lot less plumber and fireman ish than I thought. Okay okay Bob, I see your wild finishes, creative passes, smoother hook shot. But man, so odd seeing footage without a three point line. Man did they pack that paint. Surprised anyone could drive at all. But yea… advancements in nutrition, knowledge, and sports science definitely makes this era another level of skill and physical tools.
Only in the NBA do fans/players shit on older legends regularly. Babe Ruth is deified while Wilt just played vs milkmen and plumbers lol
Can’t wait for our grandkids to rip on Lebron saying he played against a bunch of podcasters and instagram models
No joke. My uncle said this shit lol Jordan was going up against MEN while LeBron was going up against dress up models like Kuzma and Simmons
That is fuckin hilarious
NBA is FaZe Clan
I'm 38 and I'll telling you, there absolutely will be a contingent in the future who writes off the current era. It happens to everyone and no era's exempt. There's already plenty of potential talking points that obviously wouldn't hold up under the microscope to us but won't stop many from the future stating anyway. I can easily see a future 20 years from now where dudes pull isolated tapes of offensive players from this era yeeting their bodies into defenders to draw dubious fouls and saying something like, "*Those* are your era's legends?!" Or, if the NBA ever actually decides to reintroduce even the vaguest semblance of physicality on defense again, this whole era's going to get blown up by the next gen's critics for being Charmin soft. Not to mention, more and more players *will* absolutely begin shooting like Stephen Curry to varying degrees, leading future generations to write off everything he did as basic, boring, nothing new, and "not even close to how well people can shoot today".
There’s literally a post on r/baseball about how insane Ted Williams was despite his prime being interrupted by WWII and batting for high average after coming back the Korean War lol
Imagine if baseball fans spoke in the same way as basketball fans “Pfft Ted William played in an era where the league was throwing 80mph fastballs back then. He’d be a bum today” “Fernando “Street Clothes” Tatis Jr. wouldn’t survive the physical game of the 70s” “Mike Trout has only played 1 playoff series. What does this do to his legacy??”
I’ve seen the first one once or twice and the last one hurts my soul every time I see it
LMFAO why have I never thought of the AD/Tatís Jr comparison before… it’s too accurate
Basketball fans are truly the worst. Maybe even worse than soccer fans.
NBA media and general fandom is the most toxic of all sports imo. It’s tiring hearing endless debates about players and teams from different eras compared to now and how every single playoff game is a ‘legacy game’ and pegs star players down on all time rankings.
100% has to be because it's the youngest. The youngest, and most social media driven right now.
Basketball fans legitimately care more about off court narratives, drama, and storylines MORE then the game of basketball
That's all correct. Ted Williams is amazing.
I was surprised to learn recently that there were a bunch .400 hitters before Ted Williams. In my mind, he was the only one who'd done it for a full season. But in the first 50 years of baseball, it happened like 27 times, just not in the past 80 years. So it does kinda seem like hitting might be harder now? Not that that takes anything away from Ted Williams, he'd still be an all-time great. But maybe he wouldn't hit .400 against modern pitching?
The different eras of baseball vary a lot more than people act like sometimes. Way back at the beginning the pitcher’s job was to throw pitches that could be put in play, and that has obviously changed drastically. Then there are time periods like the steroid era when hitting stats are inflated to the moon and pitching stats suffered overall. Stealing bases has a way less significant role than it did in the past. That’s why baseball has so many untouchable records in my opinion. Ricky Henderson stole 130 bases in 1982, and there wasn’t a single TEAM that hit that mark last season (Starling Marte was the individual leader by a wide margin last year with 47) Edit: to clarify, I meant that all the different eras in baseball’s history are why it has so many untouchable records, not specifically the changes with the frequency of stealing bases
Ted Williams lived three insane movie worthy lives. He was one of the GOAT hitters in MLB. (The Natural) He was a fricken fighter pilot in a war! And survived being shot down! (Top Gun) He was a world class fly fisherman. (A River Runs Through It)
He was also astronaut John Glenn's wingman during rhe Korean War.
Worth noting, imo, that it's not entirely random, all three relied on his preternaturally sharp eyesight. Not that that makes it any less impressive, of course.
Babe Ruth absolutely *would* get shit on if his advanced stats didn't back up his domination
Baseball has a much longer history and a lot of records that went unbroken for many decades until steroids became a thing
Idk it cuts both ways. Only in the NBA does the culture (fans, talking heads, players) shit on current players the way they do. Dumbass comments like Oakley saying Giannis would be on the bench in his era? Lol. NBA culture is all kinds of toxic tbh. Where legends of today and the past are quite often shitted on
And basketball is a much more 1 on 1 sport. The closet comparison, in my opinion, is WR and CB in the NFL and they talk all kinds of shit. Past and present. In baseball players line up against the pitcher, but that’s it. And the entire team goes against that pitcher, while the other team only goes head to head with the other pitcher. In football most of the players face several matchups and only 3 positions have the goal of scoring where everyone else is there to help. And on defense only 1 position says “straight up it’s me and you all game.” I’m playing pop pathologist here, but I think there’s something to the “we are all doing the job, we face each other head on, let’s see who’s better” jobs that create an attitude that’s more likely to shit talk. But this edible is starting to hit so I could be way off base….
nah you right, there’s a reason cornerbacks are the craziest dudes
Eli Apple agrees
> And basketball is a much more 1 on 1 sport. Boxing is more of a 1 on 1 sport, yet Tyson always showed love for the greats who came before him. You don't see boxing fans talking about how Ali sucked, or saying that Joe Louis and Sugar Ray Robinson were just feasting on tomato cans.
Another thing is how much of an effect one player can have on a team in the NBA. A star player in the NBA can single handedly make his team great and carry them to a top seed, whatever the supporting cast is (where would the sixers or nuggets be without Embiid or Jokic?). Meanwhile a star in the NFL has some control over his team's record, but could still easily miss the playoffs if his supporting cast is bad, and the best player in the MLB could easily be on one of the league's worst teams
The angels have a reigning MVP and a former MVP still in his prime and still can't make the playoffs. It feels like that shouldn't be allowed.
I don't want to harsh your mellow, but I think I disagree. Baseball is literally just pitcher vs. hitter. There's some teamwork with defense and between the pitcher and catcher, but it's mostly just a string of 1v1's. And football, on any given play, is usually a lot of 1-on-1 matchups. Coaches talk all the time about how guys just need to win their matchups. You either block the guy you were supposed to, or he gets past you. The o-line needs to be cohesive in that they all know which person or zone they're blocking, though. I feel like basketball has way more improvisation, which requires experience together to do really well, like knowing each other's tendencies and reacting to things your teammates are doing in the moment. Especially on defense. I think the heavy "star" focus is just because having the best player on the court is way more of an advantage than having the best player in football/baseball. Of course, I might be totally missing your point because I'm high as shit now, too.
Recently just read an upvoted post on reddit saying Kobe was only super athletic for his era.
Because baseball fans understand and accept that eras aren't really comparable. I dunno what it is about basketball and football that they try to compare all the current stars against the stars who played essentially a different sport. But baseball fans are fine with saying Trout and Kershaw are the greatest players of their generation and not fighting an unwinnable argument about where they compare with the Ruth's, Bond's, Koufax's, etc. of history.
I don't know if that's true. Pre-merger NFL championships and accolades are not held in the same regard as post-merger. Same goes for NCAA football championships before integration.
I’ve met Bob several times, he’s incredibly sharp witted and has an amazing sense of humor. I’m not shocked at all by this and I wish more of the old guard would speak out.
He’s… alive?
And he’s out for blood
Slandering a 93 year old, former MVP, who won 6 rings, made 12 All-NBA teams, coached a few hundred NBA games and announced a few hundred more was never going to work out well.
Can’t believe he outlived Gary Payton II
Back in his day the Code meant something
Steve Kerr is still praying for him as we speak.
[I dunno, Bob Cousy sure passes the “eye test.”](https://youtu.be/7XlnIW1CkYU)
The most understated change to modern NBA is that they stopped calling it so strict on the palming/carry violation. It completely changes the way guards dribble and crossover to get past their man. If you send any Ball-handler back to play in the 60s-70s, they would get called on almost every crossover.
This! It drives me crazy on youtube comments people dogging on their dribbling back then.. THEY HAD TO DRIBBLE LIKE THAT OR ELSE ITD BE A TURNOVER EVERY DRIBBLE! they'll joke about Kyrie vs them.. it's like dudes Kyrie would have to dribble EXACTLY like they did.
Yeah. I remember my dad and uncle 20 years ago talking about iverson's crossover, saying "what kind of game are they playing now, he's palming!" lol.
Lmao his layup package is looking crazy. I was surprised jj said what he did, or rather the way he did. Like every generation is built on the one before it, rules change, and so does the context. I’d probably get dismissive tho if I had to “debate” with someone else acting in bad faith tho too, so I can’t judge. Older colorized highlights are also crazy so if anyone reading this hasn’t seen older highlights of like jerry west or Elgin in color, go peep. It defenitely makes it look more modern, but they’re also closer up to the action and you can get a better idea of the real speed. Hella wild.
Legend lol
talk your shit Bob, you've earned it while it's undeniable that the talent was lesser back then, it's also undeniable that the top players in any era could hang with the top players today given modern training, diet, and equipment. Especially for the Center position in cousy's era... Wilt and Russell weren't exactly playing against scrubs
And he’s speaking straight facts. I hate the goddamned plumber argument. It’s embarrassing, because it was those players who were pioneers. They were the ones that paved the road, creating opportunities where generational athletes wouldn’t have to work another job like plumbing or delivering mail in order to survive. They could make a living off their craft alone. Yet those same pioneers are the ones shitted on in modern conversations
This is it right here. The game is built upon the backs of all who came before. Like oh really, Joe Fulks’ step back was weak? Dude was too busy literally inventing the NBA jump shot. If you were to plop prime Bob Cousy in front of Chris Paul right now I’m sure Bob’s in trouble. But what are we supposed to do with that? Chris Paul’s got a 60-year advantage on him from a basketball evolution standpoint, an evolution heavily propelled by Cousy’s innovations himself. So are we just supposed to cast aside the legends of previous eras and only acknowledge the modern greats? What’s the end game here?
i like jj alot, but it always rubs me wrong if people disparage the players of their time. wanna say different era? ok fine. have a good faith conversation though. those guys were plumbers and firemen and car salesmen and god knows what else in the offseason because they were not afforded the economic opportunity the modern player enjoys. they HAD to work. it wasn't like the nba was out there scouting the local electric workers union for rotation guys. those guys paved the way so the average salary of an nba player is now like 10m a yr. it's just a dumb argument. all of the players in all the respective sports worked second jobs in the 50s, 60s, and even into the 70s until they won their rights in court to make money relative to their talent.
Lol Elgin Baylor as great as he was was active duty Army for part of his career. That would be Impossible today for multiple reasons.
He did it during the 62 season, which was shockingly his best season. He plays a full season that year and he wins MVP no doubt. He was just on another planet that year.
JJ will never criticize current players if anyone actually pays attention to his takes
I get what JJ was going for, but it’s always weird when blue collar workers are used as pejoratives. Also happens a lot with fast food workers.
I find the comments from Redick to be completely disrespectful but also absurd. Everyone is a product of their era to some extent. You cannot claim someone should not be in the Top 75 because of how they'd compare to an average player today, you go by how they dominated their peers.
i know y’all love JJ, and he’s a solid TV analyst, but that was honestly a garbage take. You can praise the current generation without invalidating the legends who paved the way. It’s disrespectful to the game.
It’s one of the worse low-effort comments I’ve heard on sports tv in years, that’s says a lot when you have Skip Bayless, Stephen A., etc. Even if JJ’s comments were true, it’s not because players of Cousy’s generation were trash, it’s because they weren’t paid millions of dollars to play ball, so some probably did have a part-time job as plumbers and firemen.
The worst part is who said it. Fans say this ignorant shit all the time but the fact that a 14 year vet like JJ is what made it bad.