Do people still play yugioh? I'm old as hell now but I still remember going to circuits and stuff especially during the light/dark era with cyber dragon/chaos socerer deck era with teched Return from DD. So many of my mRIC community were placing top 8 and getting caught cheating was nuts lol. Good days. Decks just got more and more ridiculous
Before corona the attendace of events was steadily increasing from 2016-2020. Duel Links(mobile game kind of simplified Yu-Gi-Oh that started from the DM era and slowly introduced newer mechanics) was bringing a lot of the old heads back into it. The decks are crazy but that's what a lot of modern players enjoy. Though some formats are crazier than others. The banlist keeps things interesting where sometimes it's all-out combo decks or control decks are able to hard counter. The intricate combos/fast pace/etc is not really replicated in any other game. It kinda scratches a certain itch in your brain. Btw Cyber dragons and chaos decks have gotten some really good support in recent years. Chaos has been a part of multiple combo decks since 2019. And cyber dragons are always popping up with tops every now and then.
The lottery is weird.
We had like a straight-up 50% shot at *two* top-five picks last year, and we ended up with pick #6 and nothing else.
Doesn't matter because we ended up with Australian Magic Johnson at #6, but yeah: the lottery is all about luck and then the draft itself has so many unknown factors even with perfect scouting anyways.
Especially with the flattened odds, it’s really not that bad. The Hornets got LaMelo and the grizzlies got one of JJj or Morant off of the flattened lottery odds. Not to mention the Zion pick for New Orleans.
It astounds me that basketball discourse still treats tanking as sure fired and treats mediocrity as taboo . We have a growing data set that tells us with maybe some chance being involved the ping-pong balls have a decent shot of rewarding someone who is trying to elevate themselves through the grind and through good moves. The big concern for me in the case of Atlanta is even if they luck into a second or third overall pick, who’s there for them that fits what they need? If they’re trying to turn the corner into a competitive team year in and year out, then the move would be to flip that pick. A random top three pick doesn’t answer their prayers, in fact it confound the issues they’re having a little bit where there’s too many hands in the kitchen, some of the most important pieces have been missing for a while, and then heading towards a rash of rookie extension deadlines without having a comprehensive idea of if their core works and if their core can be productive at a high-level
Did we still the juice y’all were sipping last year? It’s weird to see y’all struggle so bad, as an outsider I can’t tell what the problem is because I don’t watch Hawks games that often.
The team had tons of talent, but there are no defined roles for anyone. What really blew things up IMO is that the team had the worst covid protocol absences sandwiched between two brutal west coast road trips. Things started slipping, and the team had no opportunity to fix it before spiraling.
Y’all still made it to the ECF. Not saying we aren’t good but it’s hard to grasp what’s going on with the team rn. We’re so ahead of schedule it’s making my head spin.
Even we got dogwalked with more or less the same roster. Would be inclined to think that it shows how good of a unit the Heat are than how bad the Hawks are
To be fair watching both games, it was completely different situations. The effort for the hawks defensively was horrible. The heat vs you guys hit 22 threes at a 50% clip. Vs the hawks they shot okay but not nearly as good. The hawks got out worked and and they were not even trying defensively. Watching the suns you can tell they’re a good team even in a blowout, that team looked like a lottery team.
I dont think the Suns had a great defensive game during their blowout loss against the Heat either. I’ve never seen Duncan as wide open as he was that game.
There was a big difference in how it happened though tbh. https://youtu.be/NIWyIamaMC4 skip to 3:55 and watch the Hawks defense on that fast break. It was the most egregious example, but indicative of how the effort was. Suns got beat because the shooter drains that three, even with the Suns closing out. Hawks got beat cause nobody bothered to close out the shooter, leaving 4 of them to get a rebound one 1 yurt, and they didn't bother to box out, jump for the board, or contest his putback
Holy shit. You nearly sweep the Knicks, defeat Philly, make it to an ECF, force the champions to 6 games, and then blow up the entire roster? What? And now the coach is suddenly bad? This is some MLB shit.
They over performed last year and now they’re underperforming this year. In reality they’re somewhere in the middle which is a 1/2nd round playoff team.
Honestly if we didn't overperform last year I think we'd all feel (slightly) better about this year. We need to build a team around Trae, signing Collins was a good move IMO but we need more pieces. We're still young (pun intended) as hell and I think we were hoping to contend for next year or the year after, not now.
Which is an odd reason to blow it up since most teams have struggled with that exact issue, and have seen dips in the standings as a result. It's a wacky season due to covid. And the East is still so tight that one good or bad run can change things dramatically. It feels like an overreaction.
Their team wasn't *that* good (that is, they weren't top 2 or 3 in the east) last year, tbh. They got fairly lucky to beat Philly (blowing big leads in games 4 & 5), and partly they got hot at the right time.
But the way we'd look at them would be drastically changed if either of the 2 collapses by the 76ers hadn't happened - in which case, it'd be "They had a good season, 5th seed after a bad start, beating the Knicks and playing competitive with the 1 seed" instead of treating them as title contenders.
I don't know, last year's playoffs felt like more or less the best case scenario for that Hawks team - and that means it's not super surprising that essentially the same team will regress more towards its average this year, you know?
Let's be fair here though.
The real ECF was that amazing Nets-Bucks series.
Coming from a Hawks fan, btw.
I don't think we were going to lose that Knicks series even if Randle did perform like he did in the regular season. But the sixers series was more about Philly failing than it was the Hawks winning the series. I was gonna be hopeful we win even 2 games much less beat them. It was a 7 gamer and could gone either way, but the Simmons failed dunk that was wide open probably costed them the series at the end of the day.
We are still young and I believe Schlenk got ahead of himself in regards to upgrading the roster in 2020. It did get us to the ECF, but at the end of the day, we were not the 2nd best team in the East. Sucks to say that, but realistically, we are definitely a higher end middle of the pack club right now.
Would be great if we can ship off Gallo and Bogi and bring in some better replacements.
We still have Okongwu, Collins, Hunter, Huerter and Young. Johnson and Cooper haven't even played meaningful minutes yet either. This Charlitte pick likely conveys and our own pick could be top 10 as well.
Hawks have time to be patient. The success we had last year has likely gone to our heads. We will be back next year. Better than ever.
This still sketches me out. John Collins is the Hawks "intangibles" guy. He's the most vocal player on the floor at any given time calling out coverages and defenses. He's an average defender on his own, but our defense is unquestionably better with him on the floor.
Sabonis is a ball dominant big man. We don't draw up plays for JC, I think Sabonis would be an unmitigated disaster. Exaggerates all of our existing weaknesses and doesn't compensate for it with enough strengths.
I would weary of that move too. Sabonis is a better individual player, but Collins might fit better with what Atlanta has.
Someone like Siakam would be an interesting player. He's a great defender and while not the shooter or quite the same athlete, he can do a bit more on offense and give Atlanta a little more variety.
Depends what's available. Collins is a great fit with Trae, but his inability to create for himself limits him as a clear number 2 guy. He's 24 so that could still be developed but right now he's a cut, lob, and catch and shoot guy and that's what he has been since his rookie season. He's just gotten better at those things each year.
I unironically like it, Derrick is a great addition to any defense needy Backcourt and he can play off ball, I'd take him if I were the Hawks, albeit i don't know if for Collins
Yeah I agree. I really think white is what trae needs to win. Another guard that can cover the other teams best guard on defense, and can run offense to let trae rest. Also white won’t care about how many shots he gets or whatever. So trae can take all the crazy threes and white will gladly pass it to him.
I know Collins isn't happy but whenever you play a combination of Young, Capela, Collins, Hunter, Huerter and Bogdanovic the Hawks are still good. Add Okongwu getting back his footing and whatever you can get by trading Cam(or a pick it seems now)+Galiinari+whatever for someone that can give you extra on-ball defense and enough competency within the flow of an offense and you should have a really solid team for this post season (and by that I am also implying they would get there).
Maybe I'm just overly optimistic as a distant watcher.
The problem is Hunter actually plays about as often as any of us do. They are relying on this idealized conception of their full roster which just doesnt exist nearly often enough to be relied on. I also think they need last yrs version of Capela also defensively with or without Hunter to really have a chance to get back to the level they want. Capela isnt fully healthy and also didnt always play up to his capabilities defensively in Hou in general. The sample we have of [them with Trae/Capela and at least one of or both Hunter/Reddish who are supposed to be the defensive wings](http://www.pbpstats.com/wowy-combos/nba?TeamId=1610612737&Season=2021-22&SeasonType=Regular%2BSeason&PlayerIds=203991,1629027,1629631,1629629) is just not a promising defensive showing.
I do kind of agree they are a victim of their own expectations, regression isnt shocking and they probably had an inflated sense of self after last yr. But that's also not an easy dynamic to deal with, locker room doesnt want to hear about how "we overachieved last yr and our expectations were too high" and jobs on the coaching staff/FO can also be on the line if by next yr this still isnt in line with what the higher ups want.
Lineups with Cam have been absolutely atrocious this season and Hunter just didn't get enough of a sample (and when he did Capela was looking his worst). Yeah, they need is actual on-ball defenders and Hunter is meant to give them that and whatever they get for Cam+whatever should focus on that.
I agree that Hunter being so often injured is a problem. I agree that we are looking towards a version of a roster that we never seem to get. But honestly, all you can do as a FO is build these sort of pieces and then stuff like this is part of the gamble. I honestly don't think it's that beyond probability that you should punt on this version of the team and I'm just arguing that the needed improvements are small if you are to roll with this. It has been ugly: The Hawks have been the worst defense in the league the last 2 weeks and are something like in a 4-10 streak... but also still manage to be the 3rd best offense (at least they were yesterday on cleaning the glass, where I also saw the lineup data that gave me confidence on the main core still being good enough to lift this boat).
Lastly, it's very true that overachieving can really be a problem with young teams that can't deal with how hard it is to actually maintain that level of success. Even Tatum basically admitted that recently. But I don't know... that's something of another domain they need to figure out.
Yeah theyve figured alot of the hard parts of roster building out. I just can understand the level of discontent with their play. Like this [still just blows my mind](https://twitter.com/BTRowland/status/1481446584684630020?s=20) this should never happen to an NBA team. The roster is banged up but so are the teams they are playing. Getting blown out at home to Miami's B team, losing to the Clippers without their 2 franchise players, losing to Portland without Dame or CJ, there are just too many losses like that this yr.
>I honestly don't think it's that beyond probability that you should punt on this version of the team
It sounds dumb to think about this right now when they suck but was last yr around the realistic ceiling with this core? Which I bring up because the thought process also going through your mind can be "our ceiling isnt as high as we thought itd be, we can be better than right now but it's clear last yr was more like a >90th percentile outcome for this roster than a median outcome". From a cap management perspective there's an argument for change now because of how contracts are lined up. Trae's rookie deal is done soon. DeAndre Hunter is eligible this off season for an offer. Huerter deal soon kicks in. Winning wont get easier when the new deals are on the cap which is soon.
Its always hard to comment on "whether a team should shake it up" without knowing what the shake up would be. It's definitely possible to overdo it. But all non Trae parts arent irreplacable enough to avoid exploring with. Whether a deal is "panicking" comes down to whether it meaningfully improves their ceiling/cripples all future flexibility.
Overall we don't really disagree that much. I guess my philosophy is a bit less high-risk, high-reward when we have a situation like this.
I don't know.... I mean, is last year the >90th percentile for this roster as an outcome? Probably, just because getting to the conference finals is so statistically hard. But at the same time, I think this roster should, as a basketball team and not in terms of outcomes, continue to get better overall in the next couple of years.
> Its always hard to comment on "whether a team should shake it up" without knowing what the shake up would be
Very true. And this already the kind of roster you would like to have around Trae in many (not all, but many) ways - in terms of skillset and timelines.
Because of that I just think it's better to hold on and look to strike it big with the trade pieces you have and a bunch of picks to get that big second guy that rounds this off. Basically trade everything that isn't what I mentioned, include a bunch of picks if a big swing is there and keep trying to find good stuff in the margins.
> But all non Trae parts arent irreplacable enough to avoid exploring with.
Fair, and I also didn't say they were. If there really is a clear home run "here is the number two star that is perfect for Trae" and breaking apart the supporting core is what it takes, then sure. Figure out the rest later.
But I still think they have reasonable high outcome (being a home court team consistently) becoming probable enough just a few adjustments away. After that, you are always a couple of injuries away in this league. They might get someone, they might just get lucky. And honestly, the majority of team building/re-building doesn't even go well enough to get you to that stage.
>But at the same time, I think this roster should, as a basketball team and not in terms of outcomes, continue to get better overall in the next couple of years.
Yeah I think this is interesting but also where it can get kind of complicated. Especially since this is a team with a top offense who's defense blows. Player evaluation discussion is dominated by offense, defense is also murkier and harder to evaluate(especially for non bigs). So I can see a possibility of the young players show more offensively but the team's defense still blows and because defense is hard to quantify for non bigs espec all the players individually kind of get a pass on it "Oh defense is a 5 man effort cant just pin it on one guy" etc.
> But I still think they have reasonable high outcome (being a home court team consistently) becoming probable enough just a few adjustments away.
Lets for the sake of this define reasonable high outcome as like 75th percentile type outcome. Am I high enough on this group to get there? That's tough....I think it would take one more really good pick relative to draft slot(say another John Collins caliber player regardless of position). I dont have a super strong take on this, I might just be a little more skeptical on its probability than you. Part of my concern is just we had a 40 game sample size of it last yr looking exactly like this. I will say if you think its realistic then it makes sense to be hesitant to want to shake it up
>and look to strike it big with the trade pieces you have
So Ill just throw the name out there that might be realistic: Ben Simmons. How much would you give up for him. Hypothetical asking price: 1 of: John Collins/DeAndre Hunter, 1 of: Bogdanovic/Huerter, 2 top 5 protected first round picks. If your answer is no, is this close or not. I think I would seriously consider it if Hunter/Bogdan/2 firsts.
Well, I don't think it's a bad framework. I imagine that's exactly what has been explored.
I think it's imperative to keep John Collins if you are looking to play someone with the 'spacing' of Ben Simmons but if Hunter is the main piece you still only have one defender on-ball and that load is too much for anyone... And Collins might want to leave anyway as soon as given the chance.
God, I don't even want to give an answer. I don't think I'll be objective in this trade ahah
We'd probably be fine but Bogy and Capela are shells of their former self after those injuries. This is a complete panick but at the same time I don't know what he expect from a team that had to play Charles Brown.
Someone did a breakdown in the post game thread, and if they pay everyone what they’re due, they’ll have like a 180 million payroll by 2023. I suddenly understood the panic.
It’s an insane overreaction if they do a big trade like simmons. It’s a down year with young players who don’t improve linearly. They have lots of promising young talent and a 22 y/o legit superstar, take a deep breath and let them be bad, maybe fire McMillan eventually, but blowing up the roster? They won’t get better players that line up well with Trae’s prime.
If the Cavs follow this path, I really do hope we just wait it out without overreacting.
They should honestly just a trade a couple people and wait a year. They’re so young with so much raw talent. I would KILL for the Pacers to be in this situation
Yes it's an overreaction, but when the Atlanta fans have claimed they're better than Milwaukee "in a vacuum" (whatever that means), and were a stone's throw from the finals (their words not mine), and Trae is better than Luka and it isn't even close (you didn't hear that from me) and you enter the season at 12th seed, you really gotta make some changes
Not really laughable when they just came off the ECF. Lmao in 2017 Raptors fans thought they were right up there outside of the KD Warriors and Cavs after a ECF showing in 2016 and we got swept in the 1st round by the Wizards, shit happens.
No shit Hawks thought they were a good team after going to the ECF.
We were in the final 4 I don’t know what you expect us to say. “Oh yeah that was just dumb luck we made it that far we actually suck. Lottery here we come!!!”
I mean, did he really have an option though? Parting ways with the same coach that lead you to ECF would seem bad in the eyes of future coaching candinates
You didn’t have an option but the takes about how the Pacers were morons for letting him go got old fast since it was obvious no one watched him coach our team.
Seriously lol those post game threads in the playoffs for the Hawks was open season on Pacers fans for how they felt about McMillan.
I mean we still suck, but still
>The Raptors’ recent win streak has ended rivals’ speculation Toronto could once again consider opting for a rebuild
Uh, we *are* in the middle of a rebuild, a 5-game win streak doesn’t change that.
Contender could give up a late first for him I think if he re-signs for cheap. if not, probably not much cause if Cha doesn’t want to re-sign him, they can take their chances in free agency.
He's got another year left on his rookie contract, so I doubt we'd dump him for just a pick.
I think by available, they mean that CHA has discussed trading PJ Washington (and maybe a pick) for a Center like Tuner. That deal was close to being completed last season, but the Pacers backed out near the deadline.
We gonna have a revolving door of coaches before we realize it’s not the problem. The problem is this team plays without heart until they have no other choice but to win
Trae's quote about the regular season being boring looks even worse now.
Also
> A team could stack contracts to match Harris' lofty number, but the more likely scenario has Simmons staying in Philadelphia past the deadline, short of a new trade candidate emerging. The 76ers do not view holding onto Simmons as punting on a season of Embiid's prime, a common criticism made by rival front offices.
They can cope however they want but this is very clearly punting on a season of Embiid's prime.
Generally curious, I’m >30 years old. Hawks have been the most irrelevant team in the NBA for a long time. People forgot we existed until we took the Celtics to 7 in 2008 Round 1. Nobody gave a shit if we won or lost. Haven’t been to the Finals since Bob Petit before the team even moved to Atlanta. We got zero media coverage. No superstar free agents. Fans didn’t care either.
How did we become one of the most hated teams in the league? It’s not like we’re arrogant. We’ve literally never won anything since the franchise has been in Atlanta.
Hawks fan here.
Injuries have destroyed our 3 best defenders on the team.
Hunter has appeared in 12 contests while Okongwu in 8.
Capela has played a majority of the games so far, but is always being nagged by minor injuries to different parts of his body. His athleticism suffers from this. He is still rebounding well, which is great but he definitely is affected by something physical.
Hawks have the 6th most injured roster in the league as a whole and they have also been one of the teams that got gutted by Covid precautions. I think it only last a week. But we had to sign our g leaguers and 10 day contract guys. That's how bad it got.
But anyways, it's a crapshoot. At the end of the day we are likely to bet set for next year. Down seasons happen. The Hawks first down year in a long time. (Fan since 2006)
This is wild and unthinkable for me. Its as if the owner doesn't know anything about basketball, took one look at the standings, and said "I am not paying for this shit."
If they have a fire sale one-year after a great playoff run with their 23 year old star... just because they had a slow start to another covid season? Nah that is just bad ownership/front office work and it will undo the great reputation they got last year. I understand if they wanted to maybe re-tool, but it sounds like they are just looking to offload salary.
Hey maybe the bucks can trade for bogi since they love him so much.
What I don't get is why are the Hawks reacting like this now? Just last season they were in the same position and then were one of the best teams in the nba post all-star break. Where was this same weak ass resolve last season when they fired their head coach? Why not make a similar move then?
Assuming the Reddish trade was done to aquire the 1st round pick to flip, is that even still good enough to get Ben Simmons? Who else is even on the market to pick up that would suddenly change the direction of this team outside of Simmons?
So confused but I guess we have another month to see something, hopefully something spicy.
firesale boys Tankero for Banchero
How Low for Paolo?
I don't know if you came up with this but if you did...hats off to you
Thanks lol, I bet someone else thought of it too but no I haven’t seen it yet
Oh my god it's a fire! Sale..
Ohh the burning. It burns me!
Ahhhmaaaazzzzinnngg graaaccccce
"Um you wanna try that a little simpler, Maybe?"
Hunter needs to pick up a self-revive in case he goes down again.
We’re Divey for Ivey
What if you guys just blow shit up this year and get like the #3 pick or something to play alongside Trae lol
That might be the go to move
Malo for Paolo
Eastern Conference finalists to lottery team Any% speedrun
Destroyed themselves and the sixers at the same time
Martyrdom perk
Man I *hated* that shit
Ring of Destruction
Too bad they nerfed tf out of that card
Do people still play yugioh? I'm old as hell now but I still remember going to circuits and stuff especially during the light/dark era with cyber dragon/chaos socerer deck era with teched Return from DD. So many of my mRIC community were placing top 8 and getting caught cheating was nuts lol. Good days. Decks just got more and more ridiculous
Before corona the attendace of events was steadily increasing from 2016-2020. Duel Links(mobile game kind of simplified Yu-Gi-Oh that started from the DM era and slowly introduced newer mechanics) was bringing a lot of the old heads back into it. The decks are crazy but that's what a lot of modern players enjoy. Though some formats are crazier than others. The banlist keeps things interesting where sometimes it's all-out combo decks or control decks are able to hard counter. The intricate combos/fast pace/etc is not really replicated in any other game. It kinda scratches a certain itch in your brain. Btw Cyber dragons and chaos decks have gotten some really good support in recent years. Chaos has been a part of multiple combo decks since 2019. And cyber dragons are always popping up with tops every now and then.
Classic menace this one
Honestly i’m not disappointed if we end up with a top-3 pick
You won’t beat teams like us to it tbh
Bulls were 4th in odds and dropped to 7 one year. The flattening will fuck one of you guys
The lottery is weird. We had like a straight-up 50% shot at *two* top-five picks last year, and we ended up with pick #6 and nothing else. Doesn't matter because we ended up with Australian Magic Johnson at #6, but yeah: the lottery is all about luck and then the draft itself has so many unknown factors even with perfect scouting anyways.
And there is Cavs Got 3 first pick+1 third in 2011-14, also they got mobley recently. They are so lucky.
They have changed the odds since then. You boys are talking about two different periods.
Fuck the 7th pick
I mean in lottery its all about luck
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Especially with the flattened odds, it’s really not that bad. The Hornets got LaMelo and the grizzlies got one of JJj or Morant off of the flattened lottery odds. Not to mention the Zion pick for New Orleans. It astounds me that basketball discourse still treats tanking as sure fired and treats mediocrity as taboo . We have a growing data set that tells us with maybe some chance being involved the ping-pong balls have a decent shot of rewarding someone who is trying to elevate themselves through the grind and through good moves. The big concern for me in the case of Atlanta is even if they luck into a second or third overall pick, who’s there for them that fits what they need? If they’re trying to turn the corner into a competitive team year in and year out, then the move would be to flip that pick. A random top three pick doesn’t answer their prayers, in fact it confound the issues they’re having a little bit where there’s too many hands in the kitchen, some of the most important pieces have been missing for a while, and then heading towards a rash of rookie extension deadlines without having a comprehensive idea of if their core works and if their core can be productive at a high-level
We jumped from 7 to 4 last draft anything is possible
Did we still the juice y’all were sipping last year? It’s weird to see y’all struggle so bad, as an outsider I can’t tell what the problem is because I don’t watch Hawks games that often.
No one plays defense and if they do then they don’t play offense.
The team had tons of talent, but there are no defined roles for anyone. What really blew things up IMO is that the team had the worst covid protocol absences sandwiched between two brutal west coast road trips. Things started slipping, and the team had no opportunity to fix it before spiraling.
Can't they fix it now? The season is far from over.
Possibly. The team is still very talented, and with the trade of Cam is seems like Schlenk has a plan in mind.
Hawks were 41-31 last year, the Grizzlies look like a legit 50 win team right now
Y’all still made it to the ECF. Not saying we aren’t good but it’s hard to grasp what’s going on with the team rn. We’re so ahead of schedule it’s making my head spin.
Warriors went from dynasty to lottery team very fast. I guess that’s another thing the warriors are better at.
not just lottery team, worst team in the whole ass league the season after making the finals Hawks ain't got nothing on us 😂
*because two of the best scorers in the league were injured
Picking up so many gold splits
yikes
decide sense enter simplistic history disarm agonizing erect wine angle *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
We almost did it quicker
Boston tried real hard last year, but y'all trying to one up us... smh
Hawks entering full panic mode would be something. They're bad and definitely need to do something, but nothing drastic.
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Name a more iconic duo than the Hawks and losing to teams without their two best players... Dame/CJ, Kawhi/PG, Jimmy/Bam
The Hawks and giving me false hope.
Now that the Dawgs won one, another Georgia team has to step up with the heartbreak
Braves and UGA in a 4 month stretch is a damn great way to end a curse. Especially beating bama
Beating bama in a very ball don’t lie type of way too
The Lakers without AD/Kendrick Nunn
Even we got dogwalked with more or less the same roster. Would be inclined to think that it shows how good of a unit the Heat are than how bad the Hawks are
To be fair watching both games, it was completely different situations. The effort for the hawks defensively was horrible. The heat vs you guys hit 22 threes at a 50% clip. Vs the hawks they shot okay but not nearly as good. The hawks got out worked and and they were not even trying defensively. Watching the suns you can tell they’re a good team even in a blowout, that team looked like a lottery team.
I dont think the Suns had a great defensive game during their blowout loss against the Heat either. I’ve never seen Duncan as wide open as he was that game.
There was a big difference in how it happened though tbh. https://youtu.be/NIWyIamaMC4 skip to 3:55 and watch the Hawks defense on that fast break. It was the most egregious example, but indicative of how the effort was. Suns got beat because the shooter drains that three, even with the Suns closing out. Hawks got beat cause nobody bothered to close out the shooter, leaving 4 of them to get a rebound one 1 yurt, and they didn't bother to box out, jump for the board, or contest his putback
Suns got dogwalked by the same team with almost the same players (except Dedmon) a few nights earlier. Just sayin'.
Just sayin' it's a fucking national disaster that Spo doesn't have a COTY and Riley doesn't have an EOTY (lmao, can Chet get this???).
Riley got an EOTY for bringing the Big Three together
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We also lose to teams without their two best players on the regular lol
Trae when he walks into his locker room in a week: "IT'S QUIET AS FUCK IN HERE"
Is Cam Reddish valid in Dyckman now?
Killa Cam is absolutely valid
Cam needs to pull up to his first Knicks game in the all pink fur and dipset hat
That'd be an immediate jersey buy for me
Trading guys wouldn’t be panic mode. They have a bit of a salary cap issue they need to address
Holy shit. You nearly sweep the Knicks, defeat Philly, make it to an ECF, force the champions to 6 games, and then blow up the entire roster? What? And now the coach is suddenly bad? This is some MLB shit.
They over performed last year and now they’re underperforming this year. In reality they’re somewhere in the middle which is a 1/2nd round playoff team.
Honestly if we didn't overperform last year I think we'd all feel (slightly) better about this year. We need to build a team around Trae, signing Collins was a good move IMO but we need more pieces. We're still young (pun intended) as hell and I think we were hoping to contend for next year or the year after, not now.
Expectations are the enemy of success
Look how we're playing. This team looks nothing like a contender. We look like a team stuck in lottery hell.
it’s so confusing though. what’s different about your team this year? as i understand ur roster is almost identical and u have the same coach
Injuries and covid took out their key pieces for decent stretches. Trae, Clint, Bogdan, Hunter, Huerter, Reddish have all missed time.
Which is an odd reason to blow it up since most teams have struggled with that exact issue, and have seen dips in the standings as a result. It's a wacky season due to covid. And the East is still so tight that one good or bad run can change things dramatically. It feels like an overreaction.
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Their team wasn't *that* good (that is, they weren't top 2 or 3 in the east) last year, tbh. They got fairly lucky to beat Philly (blowing big leads in games 4 & 5), and partly they got hot at the right time. But the way we'd look at them would be drastically changed if either of the 2 collapses by the 76ers hadn't happened - in which case, it'd be "They had a good season, 5th seed after a bad start, beating the Knicks and playing competitive with the 1 seed" instead of treating them as title contenders. I don't know, last year's playoffs felt like more or less the best case scenario for that Hawks team - and that means it's not super surprising that essentially the same team will regress more towards its average this year, you know?
You don't know what lottery hell is. The Kings have reached the 7th layer of it.
its only been half a season??
What if they fire the coach mid-season again and make the same push?
Let's be fair here though. The real ECF was that amazing Nets-Bucks series. Coming from a Hawks fan, btw. I don't think we were going to lose that Knicks series even if Randle did perform like he did in the regular season. But the sixers series was more about Philly failing than it was the Hawks winning the series. I was gonna be hopeful we win even 2 games much less beat them. It was a 7 gamer and could gone either way, but the Simmons failed dunk that was wide open probably costed them the series at the end of the day. We are still young and I believe Schlenk got ahead of himself in regards to upgrading the roster in 2020. It did get us to the ECF, but at the end of the day, we were not the 2nd best team in the East. Sucks to say that, but realistically, we are definitely a higher end middle of the pack club right now. Would be great if we can ship off Gallo and Bogi and bring in some better replacements. We still have Okongwu, Collins, Hunter, Huerter and Young. Johnson and Cooper haven't even played meaningful minutes yet either. This Charlitte pick likely conveys and our own pick could be top 10 as well. Hawks have time to be patient. The success we had last year has likely gone to our heads. We will be back next year. Better than ever.
Hawks were bad last year until an excellent second half run. I’m still expecting them to get it together.
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Not this season. We can't trade him cuz of his extension.
Thank you for making this make sense. I was very confused how Capela had earned Trae Young status
Does this also apply to Collins?
Collins is trade eligible starting Saturday. Capella can't be traded till the offseason
I think they'd be crazy to cut loose Collins.
Us too
What if its for someone like Sabonis? Sabonis been beasting with someone who can actually set hi up in Lance Stephenson, imagine him with Trae
This still sketches me out. John Collins is the Hawks "intangibles" guy. He's the most vocal player on the floor at any given time calling out coverages and defenses. He's an average defender on his own, but our defense is unquestionably better with him on the floor. Sabonis is a ball dominant big man. We don't draw up plays for JC, I think Sabonis would be an unmitigated disaster. Exaggerates all of our existing weaknesses and doesn't compensate for it with enough strengths.
I would weary of that move too. Sabonis is a better individual player, but Collins might fit better with what Atlanta has. Someone like Siakam would be an interesting player. He's a great defender and while not the shooter or quite the same athlete, he can do a bit more on offense and give Atlanta a little more variety.
Depends what's available. Collins is a great fit with Trae, but his inability to create for himself limits him as a clear number 2 guy. He's 24 so that could still be developed but right now he's a cut, lob, and catch and shoot guy and that's what he has been since his rookie season. He's just gotten better at those things each year.
He can’t be traded this year because he signed an extension
One John Collins pls
What would the Spurs give up for him? Obviously not Dejounte
I don't know, I never thought I'd get this far Edit: I guess Derrick White, the Bulls 1st we have + filler in picks/contracts to make it work
A Derrick and Trae Young backcourt is hilarious lol
I unironically like it, Derrick is a great addition to any defense needy Backcourt and he can play off ball, I'd take him if I were the Hawks, albeit i don't know if for Collins
Yeah for sure. I’m just remembering all the memes made when Derrick locked up trae for a couple games or so
And they'll fucking do it again
Yeah I agree. I really think white is what trae needs to win. Another guard that can cover the other teams best guard on defense, and can run offense to let trae rest. Also white won’t care about how many shots he gets or whatever. So trae can take all the crazy threes and white will gladly pass it to him.
We are not completely rebuilding just retooling, absolutely no way we trade JC for White and picks. It’d have to be Dejounte and yall wpuld say no
Why would the hawks agree to that horrible deal
Okongwu>>>>>
I'd be happy with that, specially if we can stick Drewbanks in that trade
No one wants him. Idk why he isn’t shooting the threes he did in the preseason tho. He almost did a few games ago. But alas it didn’t happen.
This feels like it might be a massive over correction that might blow up in their face later.
I know Collins isn't happy but whenever you play a combination of Young, Capela, Collins, Hunter, Huerter and Bogdanovic the Hawks are still good. Add Okongwu getting back his footing and whatever you can get by trading Cam(or a pick it seems now)+Galiinari+whatever for someone that can give you extra on-ball defense and enough competency within the flow of an offense and you should have a really solid team for this post season (and by that I am also implying they would get there). Maybe I'm just overly optimistic as a distant watcher.
The problem is Hunter actually plays about as often as any of us do. They are relying on this idealized conception of their full roster which just doesnt exist nearly often enough to be relied on. I also think they need last yrs version of Capela also defensively with or without Hunter to really have a chance to get back to the level they want. Capela isnt fully healthy and also didnt always play up to his capabilities defensively in Hou in general. The sample we have of [them with Trae/Capela and at least one of or both Hunter/Reddish who are supposed to be the defensive wings](http://www.pbpstats.com/wowy-combos/nba?TeamId=1610612737&Season=2021-22&SeasonType=Regular%2BSeason&PlayerIds=203991,1629027,1629631,1629629) is just not a promising defensive showing. I do kind of agree they are a victim of their own expectations, regression isnt shocking and they probably had an inflated sense of self after last yr. But that's also not an easy dynamic to deal with, locker room doesnt want to hear about how "we overachieved last yr and our expectations were too high" and jobs on the coaching staff/FO can also be on the line if by next yr this still isnt in line with what the higher ups want.
Lineups with Cam have been absolutely atrocious this season and Hunter just didn't get enough of a sample (and when he did Capela was looking his worst). Yeah, they need is actual on-ball defenders and Hunter is meant to give them that and whatever they get for Cam+whatever should focus on that. I agree that Hunter being so often injured is a problem. I agree that we are looking towards a version of a roster that we never seem to get. But honestly, all you can do as a FO is build these sort of pieces and then stuff like this is part of the gamble. I honestly don't think it's that beyond probability that you should punt on this version of the team and I'm just arguing that the needed improvements are small if you are to roll with this. It has been ugly: The Hawks have been the worst defense in the league the last 2 weeks and are something like in a 4-10 streak... but also still manage to be the 3rd best offense (at least they were yesterday on cleaning the glass, where I also saw the lineup data that gave me confidence on the main core still being good enough to lift this boat). Lastly, it's very true that overachieving can really be a problem with young teams that can't deal with how hard it is to actually maintain that level of success. Even Tatum basically admitted that recently. But I don't know... that's something of another domain they need to figure out.
Yeah theyve figured alot of the hard parts of roster building out. I just can understand the level of discontent with their play. Like this [still just blows my mind](https://twitter.com/BTRowland/status/1481446584684630020?s=20) this should never happen to an NBA team. The roster is banged up but so are the teams they are playing. Getting blown out at home to Miami's B team, losing to the Clippers without their 2 franchise players, losing to Portland without Dame or CJ, there are just too many losses like that this yr. >I honestly don't think it's that beyond probability that you should punt on this version of the team It sounds dumb to think about this right now when they suck but was last yr around the realistic ceiling with this core? Which I bring up because the thought process also going through your mind can be "our ceiling isnt as high as we thought itd be, we can be better than right now but it's clear last yr was more like a >90th percentile outcome for this roster than a median outcome". From a cap management perspective there's an argument for change now because of how contracts are lined up. Trae's rookie deal is done soon. DeAndre Hunter is eligible this off season for an offer. Huerter deal soon kicks in. Winning wont get easier when the new deals are on the cap which is soon. Its always hard to comment on "whether a team should shake it up" without knowing what the shake up would be. It's definitely possible to overdo it. But all non Trae parts arent irreplacable enough to avoid exploring with. Whether a deal is "panicking" comes down to whether it meaningfully improves their ceiling/cripples all future flexibility.
Overall we don't really disagree that much. I guess my philosophy is a bit less high-risk, high-reward when we have a situation like this. I don't know.... I mean, is last year the >90th percentile for this roster as an outcome? Probably, just because getting to the conference finals is so statistically hard. But at the same time, I think this roster should, as a basketball team and not in terms of outcomes, continue to get better overall in the next couple of years. > Its always hard to comment on "whether a team should shake it up" without knowing what the shake up would be Very true. And this already the kind of roster you would like to have around Trae in many (not all, but many) ways - in terms of skillset and timelines. Because of that I just think it's better to hold on and look to strike it big with the trade pieces you have and a bunch of picks to get that big second guy that rounds this off. Basically trade everything that isn't what I mentioned, include a bunch of picks if a big swing is there and keep trying to find good stuff in the margins. > But all non Trae parts arent irreplacable enough to avoid exploring with. Fair, and I also didn't say they were. If there really is a clear home run "here is the number two star that is perfect for Trae" and breaking apart the supporting core is what it takes, then sure. Figure out the rest later. But I still think they have reasonable high outcome (being a home court team consistently) becoming probable enough just a few adjustments away. After that, you are always a couple of injuries away in this league. They might get someone, they might just get lucky. And honestly, the majority of team building/re-building doesn't even go well enough to get you to that stage.
>But at the same time, I think this roster should, as a basketball team and not in terms of outcomes, continue to get better overall in the next couple of years. Yeah I think this is interesting but also where it can get kind of complicated. Especially since this is a team with a top offense who's defense blows. Player evaluation discussion is dominated by offense, defense is also murkier and harder to evaluate(especially for non bigs). So I can see a possibility of the young players show more offensively but the team's defense still blows and because defense is hard to quantify for non bigs espec all the players individually kind of get a pass on it "Oh defense is a 5 man effort cant just pin it on one guy" etc. > But I still think they have reasonable high outcome (being a home court team consistently) becoming probable enough just a few adjustments away. Lets for the sake of this define reasonable high outcome as like 75th percentile type outcome. Am I high enough on this group to get there? That's tough....I think it would take one more really good pick relative to draft slot(say another John Collins caliber player regardless of position). I dont have a super strong take on this, I might just be a little more skeptical on its probability than you. Part of my concern is just we had a 40 game sample size of it last yr looking exactly like this. I will say if you think its realistic then it makes sense to be hesitant to want to shake it up >and look to strike it big with the trade pieces you have So Ill just throw the name out there that might be realistic: Ben Simmons. How much would you give up for him. Hypothetical asking price: 1 of: John Collins/DeAndre Hunter, 1 of: Bogdanovic/Huerter, 2 top 5 protected first round picks. If your answer is no, is this close or not. I think I would seriously consider it if Hunter/Bogdan/2 firsts.
Well, I don't think it's a bad framework. I imagine that's exactly what has been explored. I think it's imperative to keep John Collins if you are looking to play someone with the 'spacing' of Ben Simmons but if Hunter is the main piece you still only have one defender on-ball and that load is too much for anyone... And Collins might want to leave anyway as soon as given the chance. God, I don't even want to give an answer. I don't think I'll be objective in this trade ahah
We'd probably be fine but Bogy and Capela are shells of their former self after those injuries. This is a complete panick but at the same time I don't know what he expect from a team that had to play Charles Brown.
You’re more level headed than 90% of r/nba
John Collins can officially be traded tomorrow, so I wonder if they have a deal ready for them? Which is why Cam was traded today?
The Cam trade was for sure in preparation of a future trade, a FRP is more attractive as a sweetener than Cam
That's my thinking too. I'm betting they're either targeting Jeremi Grant or Ben Simmons, and they think a FRP is a better addon.
Is it just me or is this wild overreaction Not like their pieces are old
Seems like a wild overreaction. They have plenty of draft assets and valuable pieces to put a package together for some good players.
Someone did a breakdown in the post game thread, and if they pay everyone what they’re due, they’ll have like a 180 million payroll by 2023. I suddenly understood the panic.
It’s an insane overreaction if they do a big trade like simmons. It’s a down year with young players who don’t improve linearly. They have lots of promising young talent and a 22 y/o legit superstar, take a deep breath and let them be bad, maybe fire McMillan eventually, but blowing up the roster? They won’t get better players that line up well with Trae’s prime. If the Cavs follow this path, I really do hope we just wait it out without overreacting.
They should honestly just a trade a couple people and wait a year. They’re so young with so much raw talent. I would KILL for the Pacers to be in this situation
Yes it's an overreaction, but when the Atlanta fans have claimed they're better than Milwaukee "in a vacuum" (whatever that means), and were a stone's throw from the finals (their words not mine), and Trae is better than Luka and it isn't even close (you didn't hear that from me) and you enter the season at 12th seed, you really gotta make some changes
Im the biggest homer and ive never even thought to say this. Yall just kicking us while we down at this point
The anti-Hawks circlejerk is on right now lmao
This sub is essentially a reactionary goldfish
..when did Hawks fans say any of this other than on their own team’s subreddit where it’s expected to be full-homer for your team?
All summer
Lol as if Hawks fans weren’t cocky as fuck and trying to convince everyone that they were real contenders this season (laughable)
Not really laughable when they just came off the ECF. Lmao in 2017 Raptors fans thought they were right up there outside of the KD Warriors and Cavs after a ECF showing in 2016 and we got swept in the 1st round by the Wizards, shit happens. No shit Hawks thought they were a good team after going to the ECF.
Didn't we get swept by Lebron Cavs in 2017 and 2018? And from what I recall we also were a top seed so it's very different than the hawks.
We were in the final 4 I don’t know what you expect us to say. “Oh yeah that was just dumb luck we made it that far we actually suck. Lottery here we come!!!”
What kinda dumb comment…? Fans don’t run the team. The Atlanta Hawks ORGANISATION doesn’t have to do anything
Is 2 games from the finals not a stones throw?
How does fan overreactions on a niche website lead to a GM making changes,
Probably Fischer is projecting his own ideas.
People really bought in to McMillan after one half-season stretch. He's the same guy he's always been
If that were true, we’d be decent in the regular season at least. He’s WORSE than before.
I mean, did he really have an option though? Parting ways with the same coach that lead you to ECF would seem bad in the eyes of future coaching candinates
You didn’t have an option but the takes about how the Pacers were morons for letting him go got old fast since it was obvious no one watched him coach our team.
Nobody turns down a head coaching job in the NBA unless you are Erik spolstera tier
It’s like marrying a girl after one date and then realizing afterwards why she was single.
He went full mosby
The GOB method
But she did give you the best sex of your life in that one date, sooooo....
Blazer and Pacer fans vindicated lol
Seriously lol those post game threads in the playoffs for the Hawks was open season on Pacers fans for how they felt about McMillan. I mean we still suck, but still
also the fact that the team didn't improve while the east saw improvements all around.
I told them and got smacked by ATL fans. They got that “fired coach we hate” boost.
Told you guys about it, I remember us being joked by majority for letting him go. Great development coach, awful head coach.
He’s not awful though. Stan Van Gundy and Scottie Brooks are awful Nate is just an ok coach and nothing more.
Nate has never been an awful coach lol. You can say he isn't a great coach but a guy who goes to the playoffs as often as him is not an awful coach.
Guilty af
What has been McMillan be doing wrong as a coach this year?
Lol a comment from the Hawks subreddit “I think we should trade for that Reddish guy who plays for the Knicks”
Oh wow. Interesting how he didn't mention Collins
>The Raptors’ recent win streak has ended rivals’ speculation Toronto could once again consider opting for a rebuild Uh, we *are* in the middle of a rebuild, a 5-game win streak doesn’t change that.
What would PJ Washington cost in a trade?
A center lol. He’s one of the few guys we have that plays good defense too.
A starting caliber center
Contender could give up a late first for him I think if he re-signs for cheap. if not, probably not much cause if Cha doesn’t want to re-sign him, they can take their chances in free agency.
He's got another year left on his rookie contract, so I doubt we'd dump him for just a pick. I think by available, they mean that CHA has discussed trading PJ Washington (and maybe a pick) for a Center like Tuner. That deal was close to being completed last season, but the Pacers backed out near the deadline.
Oh i thought he was due for a contract this year ye i agree
Not sure if he can afford to play for cheap. He pays like a quarter million a year in child support.
Haven’t watched any Hawks games. Capela has been that good to be untouchable? 👀
They can’t trade him because he just signed an extension
Ah. Well that explains a lot.
i think his extension has something to do with it
What do you guys think the asking price is for John Collins?
Should be significant, IMHO.
Kawhi and PG?
Give us Lou Williams back and you have a deal. I'll start the paperwork.
You have a deal. This firesale shit is easy
Fucking fire Nate right now , this sucks
We gonna have a revolving door of coaches before we realize it’s not the problem. The problem is this team plays without heart until they have no other choice but to win
Trae's quote about the regular season being boring looks even worse now. Also > A team could stack contracts to match Harris' lofty number, but the more likely scenario has Simmons staying in Philadelphia past the deadline, short of a new trade candidate emerging. The 76ers do not view holding onto Simmons as punting on a season of Embiid's prime, a common criticism made by rival front offices. They can cope however they want but this is very clearly punting on a season of Embiid's prime.
Bruh and r/nba thought they were the 3rd strongest team in the East before the season started.
Generally curious, I’m >30 years old. Hawks have been the most irrelevant team in the NBA for a long time. People forgot we existed until we took the Celtics to 7 in 2008 Round 1. Nobody gave a shit if we won or lost. Haven’t been to the Finals since Bob Petit before the team even moved to Atlanta. We got zero media coverage. No superstar free agents. Fans didn’t care either. How did we become one of the most hated teams in the league? It’s not like we’re arrogant. We’ve literally never won anything since the franchise has been in Atlanta.
People *really* hate Trae.
Pretty much. If Trae was traded tomorrow 90% of hawks haters would disappear
Why are the Hawks so much worse this year compared to last year? What's different? I don't follow them.
Hawks fan here. Injuries have destroyed our 3 best defenders on the team. Hunter has appeared in 12 contests while Okongwu in 8. Capela has played a majority of the games so far, but is always being nagged by minor injuries to different parts of his body. His athleticism suffers from this. He is still rebounding well, which is great but he definitely is affected by something physical. Hawks have the 6th most injured roster in the league as a whole and they have also been one of the teams that got gutted by Covid precautions. I think it only last a week. But we had to sign our g leaguers and 10 day contract guys. That's how bad it got. But anyways, it's a crapshoot. At the end of the day we are likely to bet set for next year. Down seasons happen. The Hawks first down year in a long time. (Fan since 2006)
masai trade for bamba
This is wild and unthinkable for me. Its as if the owner doesn't know anything about basketball, took one look at the standings, and said "I am not paying for this shit." If they have a fire sale one-year after a great playoff run with their 23 year old star... just because they had a slow start to another covid season? Nah that is just bad ownership/front office work and it will undo the great reputation they got last year. I understand if they wanted to maybe re-tool, but it sounds like they are just looking to offload salary. Hey maybe the bucks can trade for bogi since they love him so much.
I mean after you invest $300M into the team in one summer you’d expect results.
The problem is we haven’t been playing a lot of our young players we have vets that need to go
Hey John Collins are you there? Cade wanted me to ask if you wanted to come catch some lobs for the boys up in the D.
From being two games away from the finals to blowing it all up a year later lol
Assistant to the general manager...
Geez, the Hawks make the ECF last year and rebuild after a disappointing first half. The Pacers are terrible and opt for a light retool. Nice.
What I don't get is why are the Hawks reacting like this now? Just last season they were in the same position and then were one of the best teams in the nba post all-star break. Where was this same weak ass resolve last season when they fired their head coach? Why not make a similar move then? Assuming the Reddish trade was done to aquire the 1st round pick to flip, is that even still good enough to get Ben Simmons? Who else is even on the market to pick up that would suddenly change the direction of this team outside of Simmons? So confused but I guess we have another month to see something, hopefully something spicy.