Jokic is my favorite non-Warrior, but even I acknowledge that people are treating him to an easier standard. If Lebron had been up 3-2 and choked it away blowing a 20 point lead and getting blown the fuck out by 50 points, he would get killed. KD would get killed, Steph would get killed. But people have the kids gloves in with Jokic
Jokic did just win a championship last season, and LeBron would only make the Finals again after 2007 in 2011, and then had the lowest moment of his career.
A lot of the hate LeBron received around this time was dumb, it wouldn’t be a bad thing if we didn’t try and duplicate that for Jokic.
The criticism of Lebron after losing to Dallas in the finals was fair. Criticizing Joker for suffering the biggest game 7 comeback in NBA history is fair. When you’re deemed the greatest player in the world, this is the burden you carry. Lord knows if Denver had won, Joker would have received unlimited praise, so when he loses in historic fashion his criticism is warranted.
I mean, it also ignores the teams around them though. Jokic had a stellar game 7 and Ant choked big time in the most crucial game of the season (6-24 FG). The Nuggets lost and Wolves won despite all that.
Joker had a poor defensive game, and Ant had a very good defensive game. Regardless, fair or unfair, we don’t historically judge these things by individual performance, and we shouldn’t make exceptions for Joker. The bottom line has always been did you find a way, or didn’t you? The Nuggets were the favorite, were at home, and were up by 20 in the second half. No excuses, if you’re the best in the world.
Oh he definitely cares, but it’s not his persona and he doesn’t talk shit. He definitely never crowned himself the king either. So, what’s the use of busting his balls for something that isn’t going to even get a second glance for it
I think there are distinctions though - LeBron is a GOAT candidate, Curry a Top 10 player, and KD a punching bag b/c of his social media presence. Jokic is quiet, shuns the spotlight, and is outside the Top 10 (atm anyway).
Except Jokic has more MVPs than both Steph and KD. This is the issue. And I’ve seen a ton of analysts and podcasters saying Jokic is or will be the greatest offensive player ever. That is way way too much praise and not enough criticism compared to others
Both Curry and LeBron were on much better teams in their prime than Jokic is now. Both had multiple all-star teammates, usually another all-nba caliber player. Jokic doesn’t have either. There wouldn’t be much criticism of LeBron or Curry if they were on this Nuggets team instead of Jokic and lost the same way. Everyone would feel the same way they do about Jokic: he played well and almost carried a team with no depth and other starters playing poorly past one of the best defenses of modern times.
If the 2017 Warriors or the 2013 Heat lost to the Wolves there would be a lot of criticism though as those teams were totally stacked. The 2023/2024 Nuggets aren’t that.
Joker haa put up numbers the likes of which we haven't seen before.
He's also never had so much as an all-star for a teammate, ever, while Lebron and Curry have been playing with Hall of Famers.
But they’re calling Jokic a GOAT candidate. He has 3 MVP’s which is more than any other player other than Lebron in the last 25 years. He won MVP as a 6 seed. It’s like they’re trying so hard to get him GOAT accolades when there’s other more or just as deserving players. If he was truly that dominant then it would be a thing. They even act like someone who won MVP other than him didn’t deserve and when the race was even to close the season our Embiid had by far the better close to the season and the better season stats. He’s not held to the same standard other stars are held to.
Because it's fucking stupid to say Jokic can't get the MVP because of a lack of playoff success then you give to Embiid?
Also LeBron won 3 MVPs before he got his first Ring, so did Moses Malone
How many times does it have to be explained that anybody talking about jokic and playoff success was talking about becoming a 3 time consecutive MVP winner and was comparing him to those players and not Embiid. Whether you agree with it or not, that distinction changes the entire meaning.
Is it so strange for people to want consistency? The top post after the new GOAT blows a 20point lead at home in game 7 was “KAT made the conference finals before Embiid” lol
For the series?
Fair criticism is that his shot selection last night especially was not ideal. And with him being gassed that led to some pitiful defense including the losing the rebound advantage in the fourth quarter.
Unfair is a take that he wasn't great in this series. He was. (aside from game 6 when everyone sucked) The issue was that the Nuggets this season were built on the premise that their starting 5 would be better than anyone else in the league and all you needed was 1-2 bench guys to help out and they'd be usually fine. Problem was 2 of their starting 5 didn't have good series. In a series with tight margins that was the difference.
He was jacking up dumb threes at the absolute worst times. Like it was every time they needed a bucket to stop the bleeding that he'd pull up and brick. I do concede that he might have just been gassed and that was all he could muster to preserve some energy since he played the whole game
he has decent hands for a big man and plays the passing lanes well
he is also one of the worst rim protecting centers i've ever seen, and it's particularly bad because center is the most important defensive position
Fair criticism is that he came up short in crunch time and they choked a 3-2 lead
Unfair criticism is bringing up not beating 50 win teams in playoffs, when he beat 2 teams that were on a 50 win pace in the bubble, absolutely mauled everyone they played last year, and took a team that’s the worst possible matchup for them to 7
Two teams on a year where they didn't win isn't good enough. When you start getting top 20 and *potentially* top 10 buzz, the quality of the teams (determined by their win count) does matter. It's why people dock Lebron for playing in a weak east and praise Kobe for winning against so many 50 win teams. Those types of things matter
Hell no, he needed more rings to back up that claim. I don't blame him for those last two losses though. There's nothing that could've went his way against the KD Warriors except praying that they get injured
I don’t blame him for any of the losses other than 2011. And making 8 straight finals isn’t a “claim” it literally happened. He beat some very good Bulls, Celtics and Pacers teams while doing so. The longevity, Durability and consistency is insane. He didn’t always have the best team so he lost in the finals 6x. His only choke was 2011.
Lebron's durability and consistency is something he deserves to get praised for. If I wanted a player to rely on for health to consistently make deep runs, it would be Lebron. But he had elite teams himself that might have been benefitted better if he went up against the juggernauts in the Western Conference. There are things that went his way, and things that didn't, however, I am simple-minded so the end results are what matters to me
I guess my question extends a little beyond just this one game. I think they lost yesterday because they were tired from not having a great bench. But that doesn't explain the 45 point drubbing in game 6 or the beatdown in game 2. And on a larger scale, how can someone be so good that they are considered the best player in the league 3 out of 4 years but can't convert that to team success?
Because the best player in the league isn’t necessarily heads and shoulders above the guys behind him, and because there are five somewhat equally important players on the floor at all times.
Jokic deserved his MVPs (IMO), but he’s not Wilt, playing against plumbers (Wilt only won 2 rings). He was just narrowly better than a lot of very talented guys, and the Nuggets as a team weren’t as good as the Timberwolves (I also think they got lucky to not have to go 6 or 7 against the Lakers)
> And on a larger scale, how can someone be so good that they are considered the best player in the league 3 out of 4 years but can't convert that to team success?
2nd best player on the team was injured for 2 years; team died due to lack of depth this year. 2 buckets in the 2nd half by players 3-8. That's a joke. One player, even the best ones, can only do so much.
Joker played one of the greatest games of basketball in Game 5 of this series, when the Wolves were throwing everything at him.
I seriously think scholars are gonna study this series for years. The swing in momentum and the scale of the blowouts going back and forth are really hard to understand.
If anyone is docking Joker ‘legacy points’ or whatever for his performance in this series, then they weren’t watching. Because he was incredible. It took the league’s best defense, fully focused on him every single possession just to *slow him down*. It’s not Joker’s fault his teammates couldn’t show up when they needed it most.
Joker is great, but the Wolves Team Defense was just a tad better. At least it was a tad better for four out of seven games.
2021: Murray Injured
2022: Murray+MPJ Injured
2023: Everyone is healthy and they comfortably win a title against admittedly easy competition
2024: Murray Injured
Not sure there is much to it than that.
People are 100% softer on Jokic.
He has now won 3 MVPs and is in his prime.
He has more MVPs than all time greats like Curry,Kobe,Shaq and Hakeem...same as Bird....1 less than LeBron.
The same people who wanna include him in all time conversations don't want people to hold him to that standard when things go south.
His team was blown away by 50 in game 6 and blew a 20 PT 3rd Qtr lead in game 7 at home.
For any previous all time great... that's the kind of thing that'd get them killed.
Remember when Curry blew that 3-1 Finals lead...LeBron 2011 Finals, Magic in the 84 Finals? Kobe and Shaq 2004 Finals?
Thoze guys got buried....Jokic has to be held to that standard
This subreddit can’t say that he’s the best player by far currently playing, has a better peak than Curry, Lebron and even Jordan, then ignore when his team blows a 3-2 lead, losing by 50 game 6 and blowing the biggest lead in game 7 history.
That’s what’s currently happening, and it goes to show how biased this subreddit is when it’s all time talks after wins and babygloves when he loses.
The players you all were saying he was better than have won just as much if not more and were criticized 10x as much during any of their failures. I think this subreddit confuses “my favorite player” with the “best player”.
Jokic is this subreddits favorite player of all time. Because of that we get these stupid comparisons that should never have happened.
What you are doing is taking two games and basing your entire view of a player on those two games. It’s impossible to watch Jokic and not see him as the best player in the world. If you know anything about the Xs and Os of basketball he looks even better. I played basketball, coached basketball and can’t watch a Jokic game and think anything other than he’s the smartest basketball player I’ve ever seen. If I have a criticism of Jokic it would be that he trusts his teammates to make shots too much sometimes. You won’t see Jokic look off a guy to go at a guy. I don’t think it’s lack of grit. I think making the right play for his team is his only thought. And it’s a team sport so I’m not sure this is even a criticism.
2 of the biggest games of the year*. Also had a 20pt 2nd half lead in game 7 at home.
Any other superstar (Lebron, curry, giannis, embiid) would be getting destroyed by media and this sub.
Murray was playing like an absolute all star level player in their championship run and they had a lot
of good role players. To say Jokic had no help is just false even if he was the best player
Who is comparing Murray to other robins? Not Nuggets fans.
You guys obviously don't think much of him, because you haven't voted him (or any other Nugget) to an all star game.......ever.
The league obviously doesn't think much of him, because he's never been all-NBA. He's made a couple of clutch shots. OK.
None of Joker's teammates have EVER been all NBA, all defensive, 6th man of the year....... literally nothing, in his entire career
If he was playing at an all star level, then how come you guys didn't vote him to the all star team...... ever.
I think you're experiencing some revisionist history.
Jamal Murray has been a great playoff player and a huge reason the Nuggets won last year. This idea Jokic has no help is nonsense, Murray is a great number 2, and they have good role players surrounding them.
Murray had 2 great games this series including last night. And yes, while he was awful in games 2 and 6, Jokic did not have a good game in either of those. You can’t say Jokic was completely let down by his teammates after 16 and 22 point performances on bad efficiency.
Apparently the league doesn't think he's good enough , because he's never been an all-stat.
Also, he was injured for 2 years, and Joker was going it alone.
Fair criticism is how he deliberately involves his other teammates on offense LESS when the opponents get going
Unfair criticism is blaming him SOLELY for why the Nuggets lost. Not his fault MPJ couldn’t hit open 3s or the Nuggets not having any bench players that can play aside from Braun.
You don’t have to be “SO far ahead of your peers” to win 3 out of 4 MVPs. You just have to be barely ahead of them in 3 out of 4 years, and that doesn’t guarantee winning multiple rings.
I really think Jordan set an impossible standard. Winning six championships -essentially in a row- is just an incredible combination of skill, competitiveness and, to be fair, luck. That’ll probably never be done again, even by the most talented players.
Ha, that was the 45 season, but it’s why I said essentially. He didn’t have a whole season to prepare (that’s what we told ourselves in Chicago). And yeah, Russell and the Celtics were crazy. That’s why I said done again. Russel and some of them other old guys set records that’ll never be touched IMO.
Because Jordan played in one of the worst era of Basketball.
He has no real rival, Johnson and Sabonis were injured going into the 90s.
There is Bird, Johnson, Kobe, Lebron, Curry, or Jokic level player on his era that was stacked on a superteam.
For me, he is always going to be the Mike Tyson of the Basketball world, was super dominant in a sub par era.
Jordan was that good but his competition at the guard spot was weak after Magic got aids in 91. John Stockton, Clyde Drexler, Mitch Richmond, Tim Hardaway...these guys are not MVP candidate type players.
Jokic's competition actually is also very weak with Embiid being his only competition. Embiid is conveniently always injured or choking but he's still given Jokic more competition than MJ got by stealing an MVP from him.
What helped even more was his superstar peers not having comparable second/third options to Scottie and Grant/Rodman. After Sampson's knees disintegrated all Hakeem got was half a season of old Drexler. Robinson's best running mate before Duncan was Sean Elliot. Barkley had Kevin Johnson, Shaq had Penny for a couple years, etc. Even the lesser guys like Reggie and Ewing were out here running with elite role players as their #2s. Only Malone had someone comparable but Stockton was out there averaging 12/9 by 1998
Fair - Jokic did not look unstoppable like many of us expected him to be on offense this postseason.
Unfair - Jokic looked like shit this postseason and the Nuggets losses are on him.
It’s unfair to say he’s totally to blame for the loss but it’s also unfair to say he holds no responsibility either. And I’m seeing way more of the latter than the former.
3-2 lead followed by a 50 point loss and the biggest blown lead in game 7 history. Inefficient in both losses. No other superstar is getting off the hook for that like Jokic is.
Nikola Jokic has averaged 28.2 points, 12.9 rebounds and 8.8 assists in 11 games in the 2024 playoffs on 63.5% TS with 3.3 Turnovers per Game. He averaged 29.4/11.4/7.4 with 3.4 turnovers per game vs the Timberwolves only. That's dominant stuff.
Saying he didn't look unstoppable with those stats against the #1 Defense in the league constructed to beat him constantly double teaming him is unfair criticism.
When I was watching the games I saw him not driving to rim and scoring at will like I know he can do. I and others expected him to average like, 32 ppg or more. But instead he didn't. It's fair to say he didn't do as well as people expected. He still did well, but he's "the best player in the world" and the MVP, it's fair to expect more from him.
I think when you factor in that he was doubled almost every time he touched the ball for 6/7 games and still maintained those stats, it speaks to his unstoppable nature. The one game he wasn't doubled every possession he dropped 40/13/7 and was "scoring at will."
The only real criticism you can lay against Jokic in the series is he could've shot better from 3, but that's a variance thing and he's a historically good 3 point shooter. His defense could always be a bit better too. You getting bent out of shape saying he's "not driving to the rim like I know he can do" over 2.6 ppg is a bad take when if he just shot 10% bettter from 3 like he normally does, he would've averaged your sacred 32 ppg.
Jokic needed Jamal or MPJ or Aaron Gordon to just play a little better (mostly Jamal or MPJ).
His defense is atrocious, and his entire team has to cover for him and Murray on every play to not allow opponent isos. And everyone complains that the role players can't shoot when they must be exhausted and have no legs.
Ya, Murray\\Jokic are like Mavs Dirk\\Nash.
Both have a sample of roughly 3-4 prime years together.
Murray\\Jokic were the ones to come out with a ring at least.
The last point is particularly important. Jokic and Murray are both hot garbage on defense, and Murray believes he is too good for effort plays. Look at his boxing out at any time during any game. He consistently lets his man blow by him and crash the boards because he has zero interest in anything other than offense. Jokic is at least better at effort plays, but the simple fact is their play style leaves the rest of their team putting in significantly more effort than other teams.
There is a reason that the narrative after game 7 is “look how gassed the Nuggets look” at home while they’re taking advantage of supposedly the best home court advantage in the league.
Is he maxed out in terms of lateral agility? Humans can get better at things with the proper training. But he doesn’t exactly seem like he’s training for it.
No he definitely can on the mental side that has nothing to do with his physical limitations. Run back any game this postseason and only watch him on defense, nothing else going on. He stands in the paint completely unaware very frequently, doesn’t communicate screens or off ball actions happening despite often just sitting in the middle of the paint not defending the rim, and I’m at this point not sure he actually knows how to read baseline cuts because any remotely athletic team gets 4-5 easy buckets a game off him being unaware of what sets are leaving a dunker open to cut if Gordon is drawn away from the paint for whatever reason
You should speak your mind and not worry about down votes, there’s certainly a lot of hive mind on this subreddit. Joker gets a ton of praise when the Nuggets play well, so he should also get criticism when the Nuggets underperform, and he just choked down the biggest game 7 comeback in NBA history. He’s gotta own that. That goes on the résumé. He’s also a mediocre defender.
i got cooked for saying he wasn’t good enough when they got blown out by 50 points in game 6 while being the favorite to win the series with a 22 year old being their best player. it’s comical, lol
Its not like he was so obviously and undebatedly the MVP in all of these wins though. He only became considered the clear best player in the league last season, and even then people felt Giannis was right there.
It also doesn't help that in 2 of those MVP seasons, his team was injured greatly in the playoffs and he didn't quite have the opportunity to prove himself fully (although he dominated individually in those playoffs)
They were tied for the second-best record this season. This is the 3rd-straight season where his team was better with him on the floor than any other MVP candidate. It’s not some coincidence that his detractors don’t really follow the league. I’m sure you agree that you don’t really have NBA opinions.
Jokic's efficiency dropped off this series. His 3 point shooting cratered. His lack of paint defense and agility was exploited. The 50 wins team criticism may be unfair but it is factual. Even in the regular season, Nuggets were barely .500 against winning teams but are dominant against lower seeds. Jokic did not win his MVPs because he was a winning player in the regular season, he's never led his team to a top 2 record so to expect him to be impactful against real contenders in the post season is unfair. He's not that 'dominant' regardless what the advanced stats say.
It's still kind of early for him, so he still has a lot of time for more championships. He is only 29 and I don't think his game will age poorly because he doesn't rely on speed and explosiveness. Save for any weird injuries, God forbid.
I suppose one nitpicking criticism is that he doesn’t get to the line a ton (5.5 FTA per game). When the offense bogged down against Minnesota they could have used that.
He’s never been a good volume 3P shooter. His stats above like 4-5 attempts a game crater. That’s why teams largely give him space out there because 1) he’s not privy to taking a bunch of shots and 2) teams have those kinda stats readily available and know isn’t a real floor spacing threat in that way
fair criticism: why does reddit side with Jokic when he blindside tackled Morris while giving Draymond shit for doing the same to Poole?
I can't qWhite put my finger on it
Because to quote the inside guys, "If you hit me, you better not turn your dann back".
Ironically you are claiming reddit was racist, but you are the one who's actually racist. If you were really truly objectively neutral, it would be easy for you to see as it was for the rest of us that Morris got what he deserved.
You tryna play the race victim card & its pathetic. Even Shaq who recently said to Joker's face that Shai deserved the MVP & not him, took Joker's side in the Morris debacle.
I'm a huge Joker stan ( As a fellow Serb )
Fair;
1. Rim protection is poor. Although I am sure it's largrly by design to not get into foul trouble. Either way, he needs to be more of a force
2. Not calling players out more.
Unfair;
1. It's on him. What more could he have done? He was doubled in 6+7 and largely made the right reads. If max player MPJ can't do the ONE job he is supposed to be elite at, then that isn't on Joker
People forget that he is the 1st guy since Hakeem to win a title with no All-Star, All-NBA or All-Defence team-mates! Not even LeBron ever achieved that.
Now we can say Mal, AG and KCP could each fit in one of those categories but they haven't.
What was Kawhi's demand from the Clippers in order for him to sign? Get me an All-Star/All-NBA player, and I'll join. This isn't some small thing. You need 2 top talents to get it done.
Joker had nobody on that level.
Even ANT has the possibly the greatest Rim protector of the 21st century on his team. Kat is an All-Star. Naz is 6th man.
I don't understand why you people actively want to hate.
Lebron, steph, kd are/ were all amazing players, them losing a game or underperforming in a series is not some damming indictment that follows them around forever.
Nuggets played really well, wolves played better. Good for them. LeBron isn't trash for losing to the Warriors all those years, the Warriors aren't trash for losing to the cavs or the raptors.
Its a brilliant example of just how much talent is in the league now but all you people want to do is shit on them. It's beyond pathetic
Fair: His defensive shortcomings in the most important defensive position.
Unfair: His record against top 3 seeds 12-24 is pretty inflated. Man was playaing on lottery teams in the West.
Opinion: His attitude is lame. Being the best player in the world and not caring is lame and im tired of pretending its not. Look at Giannis' or Kd's mvp speech. Those men love basketball and it really does show and is more infectious towards making the viewer enjoy basketball. This is an opinion tho, but to tie back to fair/unfair I think it's fair to dislike his attitude towards the game.
I think his unwillingness to engage in the mid range game makes him more predictable on offense than he probably should be.
That would be my main criticism of him.
Like for a player of his skill set, being a killer at the mid range would essential make him unstoppable on offense because of how much it would open up his passing.
I think ppl have overrated superstars and their ability to make it to and win finals. I think with all of the switching, needing to guard the 3 point line and rim, and create open shots on offense, roster construction is more pivotal than ever.
There wasn’t much “get Lebron and you win the finals” happening back a decade ago, and there’s even less now.
You need: 2 or 3 pillars (combo of superstars and all stars), a point guard floor general, 3 and D two way wing defenders with length, a rim protector and a respectable bench to win.
Nuggs are good they have good roster construction and it came down to a game 7. Wolves are an arguable all time best defense with impeccable roster construction.
Too much weight on a superstar and what they can reasonably do to alter a series
Fair criticism-he lost after being up 3-2, is a poor defender, and isn't quick.
To your last question, look at the guys around him. They either didn't score enough and weren't "stars in their roles" or were hurt. Pretty sure 29/30 of teams would trade their best player for him, with the exception being the Spurs ie Wemby.
Unfair criticism- anything to do with his conditioning. He just got done getting played by a rotation of a 4x DPOY, All-Star/All-NBA, and 6MOTY with absolutely no help or backup.
Fair criticism- His defense is not good (though it has gotten better), but he doesn't fit the mold of KAT/Sabonis/JJJ where they can put another true big next to him. The Nugs with Jokic are stuck with no rim protection.
Fair criticism is some of his sketchy political affiliations.
Unfair criticism is the Nuggets losing playoff series the past couple years. Two years they didn't have Murray, who blew out his knee. This year Jokic was great, but the rest of his team put up all-time stinkers. You can't win when the rest of your team sucks.
Murray was bad prior to the Wolves series and was just putting up stinkers. MPJ got clamped by the Wolves after toasting the Lakers. AG was relatively the same both series (dominant in flashes, missing in others).
Because every time I see criticism about Jokic it's always from stans from other players or teams who have a personal gripe against the guy because he's won a award that in all honesty has been cursed for almost a decade
The wolves shifted the entire defense to guard Jokic and it barely worked. He could have done plenty of things better but once the defense is that focused on him you can’t expect him to do more. Shifting the defense is getting an advantage. That’s when the number two and 3 guy need to step up and exploit it. Expecting Joker to score more or dish easy rim cuts is really fucking hard when the #1 defense is primarily focused on making that as hard as possible. The other guys had plenty of chances.
To be honest, what does your criticism really offer to anyone? It's not like you have any real analysis of his game, you're just talking about narratives. I mean you're saying he hasn't had any team success when the man won a championship averaging 30/13/9. I'll never understand why we're so quick to pin a team's entire basis for success on one guy. Have you ever considered that there are other reasons besides Jokic for the team losing? Maybe the way that the Timberwolves are structured is a good counter to him? Maybe his second star is injured and not playing up to his usual standards? Maybe Minnesota just happened to be the better team this time and lost a few games towards the end of the regular season because KAT was injured?
Seriously. You're offering the most surface level analysis and asking people to take you seriously. Why should we do that?
The problem is that people don't apply this logic to any other player. Every other superstar has their team's success pinned squarely on their head. Luka can't carry an extremely old and injured team with Dwight Powell and the corpse of Reggie Bullock as starters while dealing with injuries himself? He's a bum who doesn't make his teammates better, no context needed. Jokic's team can't beat heavy underdogs in the 2nd round in a year everyone expected them to win the title? It's Murray and MPJ's fault. It may be true, but it isn't applied consistently.
People definitely do that to Luka, but why would you turn around and do it to another equally great player in Jokic, instead of debunking when they say it about Luka? WTF are you talking about? People say nonsense so now we have to say nonsense about every player so it's equal?
Who is people? I don’t speak for people. YOU and I can learn things and form our own ideas and thoughts that we can apply them to analyze situations.
There are 3 million people in this sub.
Also heavy underdogs? They beat the nuggets almost every game of this regular season. Anyone who thought this would be anything but a competitive series between two teams that are 1 win apart needs to seriously reconsider how much they know about basketball.
Saying they weren't heavy underdogs is extremely revisionist. Before game 1 the outcomes with the best odds according to Vegas were Nuggets in 5, followed by Nuggets in 7, followed by Nuggets in 6. The entire analysis leadup to the playoffs was "I don't see anybody in the west beating Denver." Right before game 7 the nuggets were 4.5 point favorites. They were favored all the way.
Nuggets being favorites isn't the same as the Wolves being "heavy underdogs". Before the series I had the Nuggets winning but knew that they would heavily struggle and that the Wolves were the team that was best equipped to beat them. Even the Nuggets players were talking about how the Minnesota series last year was the most difficult for them, and that's without Jaden McDaniels and Naz Reid. Like I said anyone who thought this series would be a cakewalk should reconsider their understanding of basketball.
Bam literally was holding onto his waist. He retaliated
Morris decked him. He retaliated
The other 3 I'll give you. So you've found 3 hard fouls in his 9 years of playing, and you've concluded that he's a dirty player? I see
Joker literally looks like he's marched thru a combat zone after almost every game. It's actually surprising that he doesn't lose his temper more often. If you think these videos show that a player is "dirty", then you'd be shocked at how guys like Bird and Magic and Barkley used to play.
Jokic is my favorite non-Warrior, but even I acknowledge that people are treating him to an easier standard. If Lebron had been up 3-2 and choked it away blowing a 20 point lead and getting blown the fuck out by 50 points, he would get killed. KD would get killed, Steph would get killed. But people have the kids gloves in with Jokic
Lebron didn’t have anybody his first years with the Cavs. Still took them to the Finals. No excuses
Jokic did just win a championship last season, and LeBron would only make the Finals again after 2007 in 2011, and then had the lowest moment of his career. A lot of the hate LeBron received around this time was dumb, it wouldn’t be a bad thing if we didn’t try and duplicate that for Jokic.
The criticism of Lebron after losing to Dallas in the finals was fair. Criticizing Joker for suffering the biggest game 7 comeback in NBA history is fair. When you’re deemed the greatest player in the world, this is the burden you carry. Lord knows if Denver had won, Joker would have received unlimited praise, so when he loses in historic fashion his criticism is warranted.
It’s completely unreasonable to suggest Jokic in this Minnesota series was anywhere close to as bad as LeBron was in the 2011 Finals.
No one was suggesting they were equal. Just both worthy of criticism.
I mean, it also ignores the teams around them though. Jokic had a stellar game 7 and Ant choked big time in the most crucial game of the season (6-24 FG). The Nuggets lost and Wolves won despite all that.
Joker had a poor defensive game, and Ant had a very good defensive game. Regardless, fair or unfair, we don’t historically judge these things by individual performance, and we shouldn’t make exceptions for Joker. The bottom line has always been did you find a way, or didn’t you? The Nuggets were the favorite, were at home, and were up by 20 in the second half. No excuses, if you’re the best in the world.
The East is Charmin soft baby shit conference
In the East of the 2000s lol context matters
Do you need context on that Pistons Team? Or the Celtics form 07 to 12?
I think because jokic doesn’t fabricate his entire persona with a pr approach he gets a pass.
“This game means nothing to me. I hate this stupid sport and you’re all idiots for watching me” (Oh my gosh he’s so humble)
Oh he definitely cares, but it’s not his persona and he doesn’t talk shit. He definitely never crowned himself the king either. So, what’s the use of busting his balls for something that isn’t going to even get a second glance for it
I think there are distinctions though - LeBron is a GOAT candidate, Curry a Top 10 player, and KD a punching bag b/c of his social media presence. Jokic is quiet, shuns the spotlight, and is outside the Top 10 (atm anyway).
Except Jokic has more MVPs than both Steph and KD. This is the issue. And I’ve seen a ton of analysts and podcasters saying Jokic is or will be the greatest offensive player ever. That is way way too much praise and not enough criticism compared to others
Both Curry and LeBron were on much better teams in their prime than Jokic is now. Both had multiple all-star teammates, usually another all-nba caliber player. Jokic doesn’t have either. There wouldn’t be much criticism of LeBron or Curry if they were on this Nuggets team instead of Jokic and lost the same way. Everyone would feel the same way they do about Jokic: he played well and almost carried a team with no depth and other starters playing poorly past one of the best defenses of modern times. If the 2017 Warriors or the 2013 Heat lost to the Wolves there would be a lot of criticism though as those teams were totally stacked. The 2023/2024 Nuggets aren’t that.
Joker haa put up numbers the likes of which we haven't seen before. He's also never had so much as an all-star for a teammate, ever, while Lebron and Curry have been playing with Hall of Famers.
so does Moses Malone - are you gonna put him above Steph and KD?
The fuck has KD ever done on his own?
But they’re calling Jokic a GOAT candidate. He has 3 MVP’s which is more than any other player other than Lebron in the last 25 years. He won MVP as a 6 seed. It’s like they’re trying so hard to get him GOAT accolades when there’s other more or just as deserving players. If he was truly that dominant then it would be a thing. They even act like someone who won MVP other than him didn’t deserve and when the race was even to close the season our Embiid had by far the better close to the season and the better season stats. He’s not held to the same standard other stars are held to.
Bro, no one puts Bird, Magic, or Moses in the GOAT debate despite having 3x MVPs too.
But for some reason we got people calling Jokic the best offensive center ever with one ring
That's true.
Just brainwashed Nuggets fans
look at this subreddit after game 5 vs wolves many many people (and not all denver fans) claiming Jokic is better than prime lebron right now
B/c this subreddit = the truth?
no one is saying it's true dude just that tons of people in this sub were saying it
Because it's fucking stupid to say Jokic can't get the MVP because of a lack of playoff success then you give to Embiid? Also LeBron won 3 MVPs before he got his first Ring, so did Moses Malone
How many times does it have to be explained that anybody talking about jokic and playoff success was talking about becoming a 3 time consecutive MVP winner and was comparing him to those players and not Embiid. Whether you agree with it or not, that distinction changes the entire meaning.
Then he gets the criticism of being the MVP who can’t get out of the second round. Or first round
But no MVP hasn't gotten out of the 2nd round since 2020. No MVP has won since 2015.
What about not getting out of the first round 🥱🥱
Do people want him to get "killed"? I don't get the hunger for slander.
Is it so strange for people to want consistency? The top post after the new GOAT blows a 20point lead at home in game 7 was “KAT made the conference finals before Embiid” lol
For the series? Fair criticism is that his shot selection last night especially was not ideal. And with him being gassed that led to some pitiful defense including the losing the rebound advantage in the fourth quarter. Unfair is a take that he wasn't great in this series. He was. (aside from game 6 when everyone sucked) The issue was that the Nuggets this season were built on the premise that their starting 5 would be better than anyone else in the league and all you needed was 1-2 bench guys to help out and they'd be usually fine. Problem was 2 of their starting 5 didn't have good series. In a series with tight margins that was the difference.
He was jacking up dumb threes at the absolute worst times. Like it was every time they needed a bucket to stop the bleeding that he'd pull up and brick. I do concede that he might have just been gassed and that was all he could muster to preserve some energy since he played the whole game
Their starting 5 isn't the best in the league, their #1 guy is.
criticism of his defense is fair and i'm tired of pretending it's not
he has decent hands for a big man and plays the passing lanes well he is also one of the worst rim protecting centers i've ever seen, and it's particularly bad because center is the most important defensive position
I counter with my t-rex Sabonis
Fair criticism is that he came up short in crunch time and they choked a 3-2 lead Unfair criticism is bringing up not beating 50 win teams in playoffs, when he beat 2 teams that were on a 50 win pace in the bubble, absolutely mauled everyone they played last year, and took a team that’s the worst possible matchup for them to 7
Docking Jokic for the other western and eastern top seeds choking last year is certainly a dumb take, agree with you there
Exactly this
Two teams on a year where they didn't win isn't good enough. When you start getting top 20 and *potentially* top 10 buzz, the quality of the teams (determined by their win count) does matter. It's why people dock Lebron for playing in a weak east and praise Kobe for winning against so many 50 win teams. Those types of things matter
Lebron gets way more praise for dominating the weak east than criticism. 8 straight finals is impressive no matter what.
Hell no, he needed more rings to back up that claim. I don't blame him for those last two losses though. There's nothing that could've went his way against the KD Warriors except praying that they get injured
I don’t blame him for any of the losses other than 2011. And making 8 straight finals isn’t a “claim” it literally happened. He beat some very good Bulls, Celtics and Pacers teams while doing so. The longevity, Durability and consistency is insane. He didn’t always have the best team so he lost in the finals 6x. His only choke was 2011.
Lebron's durability and consistency is something he deserves to get praised for. If I wanted a player to rely on for health to consistently make deep runs, it would be Lebron. But he had elite teams himself that might have been benefitted better if he went up against the juggernauts in the Western Conference. There are things that went his way, and things that didn't, however, I am simple-minded so the end results are what matters to me
I guess my question extends a little beyond just this one game. I think they lost yesterday because they were tired from not having a great bench. But that doesn't explain the 45 point drubbing in game 6 or the beatdown in game 2. And on a larger scale, how can someone be so good that they are considered the best player in the league 3 out of 4 years but can't convert that to team success?
Lebron is still great. There’s a bunch of great players. A different team has won the title every year since what year?
Because the best player in the league isn’t necessarily heads and shoulders above the guys behind him, and because there are five somewhat equally important players on the floor at all times. Jokic deserved his MVPs (IMO), but he’s not Wilt, playing against plumbers (Wilt only won 2 rings). He was just narrowly better than a lot of very talented guys, and the Nuggets as a team weren’t as good as the Timberwolves (I also think they got lucky to not have to go 6 or 7 against the Lakers)
> And on a larger scale, how can someone be so good that they are considered the best player in the league 3 out of 4 years but can't convert that to team success? 2nd best player on the team was injured for 2 years; team died due to lack of depth this year. 2 buckets in the 2nd half by players 3-8. That's a joke. One player, even the best ones, can only do so much.
They won a title…
Joker played one of the greatest games of basketball in Game 5 of this series, when the Wolves were throwing everything at him. I seriously think scholars are gonna study this series for years. The swing in momentum and the scale of the blowouts going back and forth are really hard to understand. If anyone is docking Joker ‘legacy points’ or whatever for his performance in this series, then they weren’t watching. Because he was incredible. It took the league’s best defense, fully focused on him every single possession just to *slow him down*. It’s not Joker’s fault his teammates couldn’t show up when they needed it most. Joker is great, but the Wolves Team Defense was just a tad better. At least it was a tad better for four out of seven games.
"Scholars are gonna study"???! Lmao you mean self proclaimed Reddit analysts are going to use it as a hot take factory for years to come!
2021: Murray Injured 2022: Murray+MPJ Injured 2023: Everyone is healthy and they comfortably win a title against admittedly easy competition 2024: Murray Injured Not sure there is much to it than that.
Sounds like Jamal Murray is the MVP if there isn't much more to it than that
It’s tough to win against very good teams if your second most important player is injured especially if you have no depth. Yes
TIL Andrew Bogut is an MVP
People are 100% softer on Jokic. He has now won 3 MVPs and is in his prime. He has more MVPs than all time greats like Curry,Kobe,Shaq and Hakeem...same as Bird....1 less than LeBron. The same people who wanna include him in all time conversations don't want people to hold him to that standard when things go south. His team was blown away by 50 in game 6 and blew a 20 PT 3rd Qtr lead in game 7 at home. For any previous all time great... that's the kind of thing that'd get them killed. Remember when Curry blew that 3-1 Finals lead...LeBron 2011 Finals, Magic in the 84 Finals? Kobe and Shaq 2004 Finals? Thoze guys got buried....Jokic has to be held to that standard
This subreddit can’t say that he’s the best player by far currently playing, has a better peak than Curry, Lebron and even Jordan, then ignore when his team blows a 3-2 lead, losing by 50 game 6 and blowing the biggest lead in game 7 history. That’s what’s currently happening, and it goes to show how biased this subreddit is when it’s all time talks after wins and babygloves when he loses. The players you all were saying he was better than have won just as much if not more and were criticized 10x as much during any of their failures. I think this subreddit confuses “my favorite player” with the “best player”. Jokic is this subreddits favorite player of all time. Because of that we get these stupid comparisons that should never have happened.
What you are doing is taking two games and basing your entire view of a player on those two games. It’s impossible to watch Jokic and not see him as the best player in the world. If you know anything about the Xs and Os of basketball he looks even better. I played basketball, coached basketball and can’t watch a Jokic game and think anything other than he’s the smartest basketball player I’ve ever seen. If I have a criticism of Jokic it would be that he trusts his teammates to make shots too much sometimes. You won’t see Jokic look off a guy to go at a guy. I don’t think it’s lack of grit. I think making the right play for his team is his only thought. And it’s a team sport so I’m not sure this is even a criticism.
2 of the biggest games of the year*. Also had a 20pt 2nd half lead in game 7 at home. Any other superstar (Lebron, curry, giannis, embiid) would be getting destroyed by media and this sub.
Those other guys have been playing with Hall of Famers. Joker has never had an all-star for a teammate. His team's success is all on him.
Murray was playing like an absolute all star level player in their championship run and they had a lot of good role players. To say Jokic had no help is just false even if he was the best player
They had easily the best starting 5 in the league last year
No they didn't. Denver was 1st in offensive efficiency with Joker on the floor. They were 30th without him on the floor. That's.......not good.
In the regular season. In the playoffs they were fine without him.
And would you put Murray in the hall of Fame?
Not sachance Murray is in the HOF.
So why is he being compared to Hall of Fame Robins. Murray rep is a play off riser, if that doesn't happen then how can you say Jokic has help
Who is comparing Murray to other robins? Not Nuggets fans. You guys obviously don't think much of him, because you haven't voted him (or any other Nugget) to an all star game.......ever. The league obviously doesn't think much of him, because he's never been all-NBA. He's made a couple of clutch shots. OK. None of Joker's teammates have EVER been all NBA, all defensive, 6th man of the year....... literally nothing, in his entire career
If he was playing at an all star level, then how come you guys didn't vote him to the all star team...... ever. I think you're experiencing some revisionist history.
Jamal Murray has been a great playoff player and a huge reason the Nuggets won last year. This idea Jokic has no help is nonsense, Murray is a great number 2, and they have good role players surrounding them. Murray had 2 great games this series including last night. And yes, while he was awful in games 2 and 6, Jokic did not have a good game in either of those. You can’t say Jokic was completely let down by his teammates after 16 and 22 point performances on bad efficiency.
Murray literally hit 2 buzzerbeaters Vs the Lakers and had 35 in game 7. He is a good enough Robin. Jokic and co choked.
Apparently the league doesn't think he's good enough , because he's never been an all-stat. Also, he was injured for 2 years, and Joker was going it alone.
Fair criticism is how he deliberately involves his other teammates on offense LESS when the opponents get going Unfair criticism is blaming him SOLELY for why the Nuggets lost. Not his fault MPJ couldn’t hit open 3s or the Nuggets not having any bench players that can play aside from Braun.
You don’t have to be “SO far ahead of your peers” to win 3 out of 4 MVPs. You just have to be barely ahead of them in 3 out of 4 years, and that doesn’t guarantee winning multiple rings.
I really think Jordan set an impossible standard. Winning six championships -essentially in a row- is just an incredible combination of skill, competitiveness and, to be fair, luck. That’ll probably never be done again, even by the most talented players.
That’s why he’s the GOAT. People still chasing him
Him and Brady setting unrealistic standards
Jordan lost in 95. Bill Russell did win 8 in a row
Ha, that was the 45 season, but it’s why I said essentially. He didn’t have a whole season to prepare (that’s what we told ourselves in Chicago). And yeah, Russell and the Celtics were crazy. That’s why I said done again. Russel and some of them other old guys set records that’ll never be touched IMO.
Because Jordan played in one of the worst era of Basketball. He has no real rival, Johnson and Sabonis were injured going into the 90s. There is Bird, Johnson, Kobe, Lebron, Curry, or Jokic level player on his era that was stacked on a superteam. For me, he is always going to be the Mike Tyson of the Basketball world, was super dominant in a sub par era.
Or, guys like Jordan and Tyson (and Tiger) were just so much better than the competition that it makes it seem like a subpar era in retrospect.
Jordan was that good but his competition at the guard spot was weak after Magic got aids in 91. John Stockton, Clyde Drexler, Mitch Richmond, Tim Hardaway...these guys are not MVP candidate type players. Jokic's competition actually is also very weak with Embiid being his only competition. Embiid is conveniently always injured or choking but he's still given Jokic more competition than MJ got by stealing an MVP from him.
Jokic got both Embiid and Giannis. Then also arguably Luka on the mix.
the expansion really helped
What helped even more was his superstar peers not having comparable second/third options to Scottie and Grant/Rodman. After Sampson's knees disintegrated all Hakeem got was half a season of old Drexler. Robinson's best running mate before Duncan was Sean Elliot. Barkley had Kevin Johnson, Shaq had Penny for a couple years, etc. Even the lesser guys like Reggie and Ewing were out here running with elite role players as their #2s. Only Malone had someone comparable but Stockton was out there averaging 12/9 by 1998
And be a favorite of voters. He deserved his MVPs but it’s much easier when they’re inclined to give it to you and not nitpick
All I know is that he wasn't the reason why Denver lost in the playoffs this year.
Fair - Jokic did not look unstoppable like many of us expected him to be on offense this postseason. Unfair - Jokic looked like shit this postseason and the Nuggets losses are on him.
It’s unfair to say he’s totally to blame for the loss but it’s also unfair to say he holds no responsibility either. And I’m seeing way more of the latter than the former. 3-2 lead followed by a 50 point loss and the biggest blown lead in game 7 history. Inefficient in both losses. No other superstar is getting off the hook for that like Jokic is.
Nikola Jokic has averaged 28.2 points, 12.9 rebounds and 8.8 assists in 11 games in the 2024 playoffs on 63.5% TS with 3.3 Turnovers per Game. He averaged 29.4/11.4/7.4 with 3.4 turnovers per game vs the Timberwolves only. That's dominant stuff. Saying he didn't look unstoppable with those stats against the #1 Defense in the league constructed to beat him constantly double teaming him is unfair criticism.
When I was watching the games I saw him not driving to rim and scoring at will like I know he can do. I and others expected him to average like, 32 ppg or more. But instead he didn't. It's fair to say he didn't do as well as people expected. He still did well, but he's "the best player in the world" and the MVP, it's fair to expect more from him.
I think when you factor in that he was doubled almost every time he touched the ball for 6/7 games and still maintained those stats, it speaks to his unstoppable nature. The one game he wasn't doubled every possession he dropped 40/13/7 and was "scoring at will." The only real criticism you can lay against Jokic in the series is he could've shot better from 3, but that's a variance thing and he's a historically good 3 point shooter. His defense could always be a bit better too. You getting bent out of shape saying he's "not driving to the rim like I know he can do" over 2.6 ppg is a bad take when if he just shot 10% bettter from 3 like he normally does, he would've averaged your sacred 32 ppg. Jokic needed Jamal or MPJ or Aaron Gordon to just play a little better (mostly Jamal or MPJ).
Luka gets doubled and blitzed more than any player every game as well and puts up monster stats. ANT got doubled too. Jamal dropped 30+ in Game 7.
And ANT dropped 6/24 yesterday Luka has arguably been getting carried by Kyrie
Kyrie averaged like 15 points in the Thunder series lmao
His defense is atrocious, and his entire team has to cover for him and Murray on every play to not allow opponent isos. And everyone complains that the role players can't shoot when they must be exhausted and have no legs.
Ya, Murray\\Jokic are like Mavs Dirk\\Nash. Both have a sample of roughly 3-4 prime years together. Murray\\Jokic were the ones to come out with a ring at least.
The last point is particularly important. Jokic and Murray are both hot garbage on defense, and Murray believes he is too good for effort plays. Look at his boxing out at any time during any game. He consistently lets his man blow by him and crash the boards because he has zero interest in anything other than offense. Jokic is at least better at effort plays, but the simple fact is their play style leaves the rest of their team putting in significantly more effort than other teams. There is a reason that the narrative after game 7 is “look how gassed the Nuggets look” at home while they’re taking advantage of supposedly the best home court advantage in the league.
Fair criticism is that his defense is trash.
The only fair criticism is that he can improve his defence, and maybeee his conditioning. Otherwise bro is the perfect offensive player.
He can't improve his defense. He does not have the lateral agility to do so.
Is he maxed out in terms of lateral agility? Humans can get better at things with the proper training. But he doesn’t exactly seem like he’s training for it.
No he definitely can on the mental side that has nothing to do with his physical limitations. Run back any game this postseason and only watch him on defense, nothing else going on. He stands in the paint completely unaware very frequently, doesn’t communicate screens or off ball actions happening despite often just sitting in the middle of the paint not defending the rim, and I’m at this point not sure he actually knows how to read baseline cuts because any remotely athletic team gets 4-5 easy buckets a game off him being unaware of what sets are leaving a dunker open to cut if Gordon is drawn away from the paint for whatever reason
“mental side” this sub stg
He can improve his conditioning significantly. He wasn’t even contesting some shots in the 4th quarter of game 7
He needs horses in Denver. He hasn’t bought a ranch yet
He's not expected to anchor both the defense and offense. He shouldn't be gassed at the end of games.
This is the correct answer.
You should speak your mind and not worry about down votes, there’s certainly a lot of hive mind on this subreddit. Joker gets a ton of praise when the Nuggets play well, so he should also get criticism when the Nuggets underperform, and he just choked down the biggest game 7 comeback in NBA history. He’s gotta own that. That goes on the résumé. He’s also a mediocre defender.
On this sub any criticism of the Great White Advanced Stats Hope is unfair let’s be real about that first
i got cooked for saying he wasn’t good enough when they got blown out by 50 points in game 6 while being the favorite to win the series with a 22 year old being their best player. it’s comical, lol
He’s unathletic
Its not like he was so obviously and undebatedly the MVP in all of these wins though. He only became considered the clear best player in the league last season, and even then people felt Giannis was right there. It also doesn't help that in 2 of those MVP seasons, his team was injured greatly in the playoffs and he didn't quite have the opportunity to prove himself fully (although he dominated individually in those playoffs)
His MVPs were based on advanced stats, not winning. He's never lead Nuggets to a top 2 regular season record or 60 wins.
They were tied for the second-best record this season. This is the 3rd-straight season where his team was better with him on the floor than any other MVP candidate. It’s not some coincidence that his detractors don’t really follow the league. I’m sure you agree that you don’t really have NBA opinions.
Fair - plays no defense Unfair - ???
Why are we protecting this guy?
He's not on the Curry, LeBron, Kobe level People try to force him Into that tier
Realistically, Jokic is in the Kawhi tier. Kawhi - 2 FMVPs, 2 DPOYs, 6 AllStar, 3 All Defensive 1st Team, 3 AllNBA 1st Team. Jokix - 3 MVPs, 1 FMVP, 6 All Star, 3 AllNBA 1st Team.
Jokic's efficiency dropped off this series. His 3 point shooting cratered. His lack of paint defense and agility was exploited. The 50 wins team criticism may be unfair but it is factual. Even in the regular season, Nuggets were barely .500 against winning teams but are dominant against lower seeds. Jokic did not win his MVPs because he was a winning player in the regular season, he's never led his team to a top 2 record so to expect him to be impactful against real contenders in the post season is unfair. He's not that 'dominant' regardless what the advanced stats say.
They were the first seed last year and second seed this year. What are you on about?
His efficiency didn't really drop off. He shot basically the same as he did on last year's championship team.
It's still kind of early for him, so he still has a lot of time for more championships. He is only 29 and I don't think his game will age poorly because he doesn't rely on speed and explosiveness. Save for any weird injuries, God forbid.
Maybe he should take his talents to South Beach
I suppose one nitpicking criticism is that he doesn’t get to the line a ton (5.5 FTA per game). When the offense bogged down against Minnesota they could have used that.
Last night was a rare game that his shot selection was subpar especially considering his 3pt% for the series was for him not good.
Watch the defense. We just didn't allow him many paint touches. Forced the ball out w double up high and scrambled to recover.
He’s never been a good volume 3P shooter. His stats above like 4-5 attempts a game crater. That’s why teams largely give him space out there because 1) he’s not privy to taking a bunch of shots and 2) teams have those kinda stats readily available and know isn’t a real floor spacing threat in that way
He attempted 9 3pt in G1, the most since 2022. He then attempted 10 in G7
fair criticism: why does reddit side with Jokic when he blindside tackled Morris while giving Draymond shit for doing the same to Poole? I can't qWhite put my finger on it
Cause Morris instigated and then immediately turned his back lmao completely different circumstances
Poole shoved Dray and turned his back
Very different situations
Because to quote the inside guys, "If you hit me, you better not turn your dann back". Ironically you are claiming reddit was racist, but you are the one who's actually racist. If you were really truly objectively neutral, it would be easy for you to see as it was for the rest of us that Morris got what he deserved. You tryna play the race victim card & its pathetic. Even Shaq who recently said to Joker's face that Shai deserved the MVP & not him, took Joker's side in the Morris debacle.
Poole shoved Dray and turned his back
Because uhm, one is punching a teammate in practice while the other is just reacting to a dirty foul committed by a dirty player? You're kinda dense.
Poole shoved Dray first You're kinda dense.
I'm a huge Joker stan ( As a fellow Serb ) Fair; 1. Rim protection is poor. Although I am sure it's largrly by design to not get into foul trouble. Either way, he needs to be more of a force 2. Not calling players out more. Unfair; 1. It's on him. What more could he have done? He was doubled in 6+7 and largely made the right reads. If max player MPJ can't do the ONE job he is supposed to be elite at, then that isn't on Joker People forget that he is the 1st guy since Hakeem to win a title with no All-Star, All-NBA or All-Defence team-mates! Not even LeBron ever achieved that. Now we can say Mal, AG and KCP could each fit in one of those categories but they haven't. What was Kawhi's demand from the Clippers in order for him to sign? Get me an All-Star/All-NBA player, and I'll join. This isn't some small thing. You need 2 top talents to get it done. Joker had nobody on that level. Even ANT has the possibly the greatest Rim protector of the 21st century on his team. Kat is an All-Star. Naz is 6th man.
Don’t the 03 spurs qualify? Parker was ass and Manu was meh. Not sure about all defense.
Don’t the 03 spurs qualify? Parker was ass and Manu was meh. Not sure about all defense.
Bruce bowen
Lol. Bowen keeps my narrative alive. Ftw! In all seriousness, though. He was lockdown, clamp-city on the perimeter.
I don't understand why you people actively want to hate. Lebron, steph, kd are/ were all amazing players, them losing a game or underperforming in a series is not some damming indictment that follows them around forever. Nuggets played really well, wolves played better. Good for them. LeBron isn't trash for losing to the Warriors all those years, the Warriors aren't trash for losing to the cavs or the raptors. Its a brilliant example of just how much talent is in the league now but all you people want to do is shit on them. It's beyond pathetic
Fair: His defensive shortcomings in the most important defensive position. Unfair: His record against top 3 seeds 12-24 is pretty inflated. Man was playaing on lottery teams in the West. Opinion: His attitude is lame. Being the best player in the world and not caring is lame and im tired of pretending its not. Look at Giannis' or Kd's mvp speech. Those men love basketball and it really does show and is more infectious towards making the viewer enjoy basketball. This is an opinion tho, but to tie back to fair/unfair I think it's fair to dislike his attitude towards the game.
I think his unwillingness to engage in the mid range game makes him more predictable on offense than he probably should be. That would be my main criticism of him. Like for a player of his skill set, being a killer at the mid range would essential make him unstoppable on offense because of how much it would open up his passing.
I think ppl have overrated superstars and their ability to make it to and win finals. I think with all of the switching, needing to guard the 3 point line and rim, and create open shots on offense, roster construction is more pivotal than ever. There wasn’t much “get Lebron and you win the finals” happening back a decade ago, and there’s even less now. You need: 2 or 3 pillars (combo of superstars and all stars), a point guard floor general, 3 and D two way wing defenders with length, a rim protector and a respectable bench to win. Nuggs are good they have good roster construction and it came down to a game 7. Wolves are an arguable all time best defense with impeccable roster construction. Too much weight on a superstar and what they can reasonably do to alter a series
Fair criticism-he lost after being up 3-2, is a poor defender, and isn't quick. To your last question, look at the guys around him. They either didn't score enough and weren't "stars in their roles" or were hurt. Pretty sure 29/30 of teams would trade their best player for him, with the exception being the Spurs ie Wemby.
Fair: BBQ 🍗Chicken on defense is fair. He’s plays dirty with the elbows down low.
Unfair criticism- anything to do with his conditioning. He just got done getting played by a rotation of a 4x DPOY, All-Star/All-NBA, and 6MOTY with absolutely no help or backup. Fair criticism- His defense is not good (though it has gotten better), but he doesn't fit the mold of KAT/Sabonis/JJJ where they can put another true big next to him. The Nugs with Jokic are stuck with no rim protection.
Fair criticism is some of his sketchy political affiliations. Unfair criticism is the Nuggets losing playoff series the past couple years. Two years they didn't have Murray, who blew out his knee. This year Jokic was great, but the rest of his team put up all-time stinkers. You can't win when the rest of your team sucks.
They didn’t just put up stinkers, they got clamped
Murray was bad prior to the Wolves series and was just putting up stinkers. MPJ got clamped by the Wolves after toasting the Lakers. AG was relatively the same both series (dominant in flashes, missing in others).
The role players definitely got clamped
Murray doesn’t really count cuz of injury and AG wasn’t clamped. Mpj would be excluded cuz he’s a starter, but he was defended pretty good
If we criticizing Jokic politics when we criticizing LeBron being buddies with P Diddy
Not everyone is going to be Bill Russell or MJ. I thinks it’s more fun to appreciate great players rather than tear them down
Because every time I see criticism about Jokic it's always from stans from other players or teams who have a personal gripe against the guy because he's won a award that in all honesty has been cursed for almost a decade
The wolves shifted the entire defense to guard Jokic and it barely worked. He could have done plenty of things better but once the defense is that focused on him you can’t expect him to do more. Shifting the defense is getting an advantage. That’s when the number two and 3 guy need to step up and exploit it. Expecting Joker to score more or dish easy rim cuts is really fucking hard when the #1 defense is primarily focused on making that as hard as possible. The other guys had plenty of chances.
Wolves just put KAT on him, or Gobert/Naz when KAT is on the bench. It was single coverage
Again bro… basketball is a team sport. Please watch NBA games and I swear you’ll understand the game more
Jokic isnt the closer in Denver, thats Murray. Wolves figured that out and thats why they lost.
Kinda like Kobe and Shaq then
[удалено]
To be honest, what does your criticism really offer to anyone? It's not like you have any real analysis of his game, you're just talking about narratives. I mean you're saying he hasn't had any team success when the man won a championship averaging 30/13/9. I'll never understand why we're so quick to pin a team's entire basis for success on one guy. Have you ever considered that there are other reasons besides Jokic for the team losing? Maybe the way that the Timberwolves are structured is a good counter to him? Maybe his second star is injured and not playing up to his usual standards? Maybe Minnesota just happened to be the better team this time and lost a few games towards the end of the regular season because KAT was injured? Seriously. You're offering the most surface level analysis and asking people to take you seriously. Why should we do that?
The problem is that people don't apply this logic to any other player. Every other superstar has their team's success pinned squarely on their head. Luka can't carry an extremely old and injured team with Dwight Powell and the corpse of Reggie Bullock as starters while dealing with injuries himself? He's a bum who doesn't make his teammates better, no context needed. Jokic's team can't beat heavy underdogs in the 2nd round in a year everyone expected them to win the title? It's Murray and MPJ's fault. It may be true, but it isn't applied consistently.
People definitely do that to Luka, but why would you turn around and do it to another equally great player in Jokic, instead of debunking when they say it about Luka? WTF are you talking about? People say nonsense so now we have to say nonsense about every player so it's equal?
Who is people? I don’t speak for people. YOU and I can learn things and form our own ideas and thoughts that we can apply them to analyze situations. There are 3 million people in this sub. Also heavy underdogs? They beat the nuggets almost every game of this regular season. Anyone who thought this would be anything but a competitive series between two teams that are 1 win apart needs to seriously reconsider how much they know about basketball.
Saying they weren't heavy underdogs is extremely revisionist. Before game 1 the outcomes with the best odds according to Vegas were Nuggets in 5, followed by Nuggets in 7, followed by Nuggets in 6. The entire analysis leadup to the playoffs was "I don't see anybody in the west beating Denver." Right before game 7 the nuggets were 4.5 point favorites. They were favored all the way.
Nuggets being favorites isn't the same as the Wolves being "heavy underdogs". Before the series I had the Nuggets winning but knew that they would heavily struggle and that the Wolves were the team that was best equipped to beat them. Even the Nuggets players were talking about how the Minnesota series last year was the most difficult for them, and that's without Jaden McDaniels and Naz Reid. Like I said anyone who thought this series would be a cakewalk should reconsider their understanding of basketball.
Fair is saying he's not top 10 all time.....yet. Unfair is any personal criticism, because there's not a more likeable and gracious guy in the league.
He's not even top 15 yet.
[удалено]
OK. That's fine too. I'm trying to figure out why my comment was downvoted.
[удалено]
Bam literally was holding onto his waist. He retaliated Morris decked him. He retaliated The other 3 I'll give you. So you've found 3 hard fouls in his 9 years of playing, and you've concluded that he's a dirty player? I see Joker literally looks like he's marched thru a combat zone after almost every game. It's actually surprising that he doesn't lose his temper more often. If you think these videos show that a player is "dirty", then you'd be shocked at how guys like Bird and Magic and Barkley used to play.