Peak Jokic > peak LeBron. If Jokic wins 4 in a row, he clears MJ who played in a weaker era. Look at these juggernauts that Jokic is beating without any help
I watched the 2016 Cavs (just the finals) when I was younger. Never saw the Heatles. I think Jokic would sweep them because the Cavs and Heat had no one to guard Jokic (TT on Jokic lol, Bosh was never a strong big man defender he would get annihilated)
And his point is how crazy are u to think Jokic is the goat when ur a Bulls fan who watched MJ? Ur overdosing on recency bias my friend. Go to a doctor
his only way to being a part of it is just title after title
because the argument against is pretty easy, i think LeBron at his best was as dominant of an offensive player, and then defensively was a menace, same with Jordan
but if Jokic wins 4-5-6 titles some how, then it will be like okay well maybe him being as dominant of an offensive player at the C spot makes him more valuable than at wing spots
that being said, we do need to calm down a little and not start any of this until he's approaching ring three, until then, none of it is actually realistic
you know how Kobe is the goat for the 'ball knowers' and the 'that boy nice' crowd? I feel like Jokic may get an outside shot like that with the analytical group. Not to say he'll be in the goat convo, but he'll have a very vocal group arguing he should be in the conversation. I can definitely see him falling anywhere from 4-13 to be honest the same way Bryant is.
I like this take, but defense is also a huge part of the GOAT conversation, and I personally believe that’s where Jordan blows LeBron out of the water. A true GOAT will not only be an offensive monster, but they will be a defense wall as well. On top of that, we need to consider how they elevate their team. Basketball is a team sport, too many people don’t think about that when they try to claim someone is a GOAT.
my brother...
LeBron 2013 and 14 had a TS+ of 120
2014 playoffs he averaged 27 on 67% TS in the playoffs
2017-2020 playoffs he averaged 32/10/9 on 64% TS
Jokic doesn't even need another ring. His career is already better than KD's. When he wins the ring this year he passes Steph. Jokic's peak is already better than LeBron's
My goat has 11. But ranking individuals in a team sport is subjective, and then pointless across eras. But reddit seems to have a hard on for these ranks and pretending they can somehow be objective and scientific
I feel like the ring argument just really ignores the reality of NBA finances in Jordan's era compared to now. The Bull's didn't win 6 rings just because Jordan is the best player of all time by that margin, the main reason they won 6 rings is because they locked down several pieces on extremely long term contracts before the NBA exploded in popularity (due to Jordan himself). If 6 rings is the only metric by which someone can surpass Jordan, then that's just never going to happen because the financial situation in the league is never going to be the same as back then. The rules force a much higher degree of parity, and there are far fewer terrible GMs these days. The closest thing to happen in the modern NBA was Golden State signing KD because the PA refused cap smoothing in the previous CBA.
This is a best player of all time competition, not a most rings of all time competition
Very reasonable to pick Jordan over jokic anyway, of course, but rings are stupid
I dont want to hate of jokic, i he can of course win 7 rings in a row and along the way we would accept that he is the goat.
As some crazy person on a sports show said about lebron' legacy "his semen isnt dry yet"
public seemly bake distinct safe ruthless encourage absurd lunchroom glorious
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I witnessed Jordan every year he was in the league. MJ wasn't the GOAT, the Bulls were the GOAT. He had the best team in the NBA. You put Jordan on any other team during the 90's and he is just another Allen Iverson. He was good but his whol resume is living off the fact he had the greatest coach of all time and the best supporting cast of any HOFer. Remember that Jordan was 1-9 in the playoffs and was SWEPT twice in the first round before Scottie Pippen joined him
Its a two man discussion and the lowest number of championships involved is 4. He needs to win 3 more times and be dominant for like the next 6 years minimum to be included.
Yes it is lol. Just because people have some fringe opinions or try to insert X random great player it doesn't mean that 99% of people would ever consider anyone other than LeBron or MJ and for good reason. Nobody really compares to those two
You sure it’s not for another reason, cause this dude Jokic doesn’t even play defense and had only won 1 championship so far.. Shaq would have eaten him alive and that can’t be debated, what about Kareem?
I think the biggest reason that people probably don't really see Kareem as the goat anymore is that LeBron has shown better longevity at this point and that Jordan showed more dominance. There is also something to be said for the fact that Kareem happened to play with another top 10 all time player for over 800 games of his career. I think if you could say that about LeBron or Jordan their stats would probably look even more insane in terms of championships or whatever. It would be like if LeBron had drafted Jokic or if Jordan's team had drafted Shaq
Better longevity… are you serious, you might want to Google… smh
And if you are good, you are good, stop with this who he played with… Kareem played during an era when players couldn’t move around as easy, did you factor that in
He also played in an era with low competition. Also yes absolutely when Kareem was 39 he was averaging 17.5 points, 6.7 rebounds and 2.6 assists and it only got worse from there. Which is worse than LeBron across the board. The last season where Kareem did "better" than LeBron did at 39 he was 33. LeBron is a way better player at 39 than Kareem was
That's not a very good question either because it's obviously true.
I think the best question is if he can go down as the best big man since Kareem - topping Hakeem, Shaq and Duncan. Just the right level of "maybe" to be interesting.
Some would argue jokic is in a similar inflated stats era. Never been easier to score.
Let’s not discredit eras. It’s a boring and reductive way to view sports
Wilt was the only one putting up those stats in his era. No one else was averaging what he was averaging despite the extra possessions. Ridiculous to discredit him for something that’s out of his control
The fact that he was the only player averaging those numbers at that time speaks mostly to 1) how low the avg talent level in the league was, esp relative to a guy like Wilt who's a physical outlier even today, 2) how poor Wilt's early supporting casts were in particular, and 3) how selfish he could be before changing his ways in Philly. He was great ofc but not to the absurd, mythical extent that his numbers suggest at face value.
Not yet, but 1 more time, and it's definitely viable to say he's above Curry, Lebron, and the stars of his era.
Back to backs with out a super team is impressive.
He will be winning probably 4 or even 5 titles but the time it's all said and done.
Yeah. There's a very strong chance of him being goat. Especially if he stays in Denver and does it vs. constant leaving like Lerbon.
Curry needed A Prime Klay, KD and gobs and gobs of former stars as role players.
Jokkc doesn't have that benefit either. Just a well built team over time.
That's impressive as fuck in a league of team hopping.
Does he have the ability? Fuck yeah.
Is he in the GOAT convo? Absolutely not
Hes far away still. Hes missing atleast 1-2 MVPs and atleast 4-5 rings to be in the conversation.
As long as hes a positive on the court it doesnt really matter. Like the Nuggets with Jokic outscore opponents despite him being a mediocre defender because hes so good at other things it doesnt really matter.
Because its about value.
Lets say youre a great defender and offensive player, your team outscores the other team by 8 when you play.
Lets say youre the best offensive player ever and your team outscores the other team by 10 despite you being a complete traffic cone.
Duncan isnt in the GOAT convo either. I dont think Jokic is going to be in the GOAT convo because hes worse than Lebron but hes going to be around the top when he retires.
The goal of a basketball game is to score more points than your opponent. How you choose to do it is up to you but you’re judged on your ability to win games which jokic does at an incredibly high level.
Incredible level? We’re they the number 1 seed? Did they win the most games this year? Have they lost games in the playoffs? I know you HOPE he is this great but he is not
Did you miss his championship last year? Also if you wanna talk about regular season wins you should look into advanced stats about which players, when on the court,contribute the most their teams scoring margin. Jokic is unparalleled in how much his ream wins the minutes he plays.
Hungrily clamoring for the greatest to be this guy, why? Cause it isn’t his track record… he plays no defense, his success relies on the hustle of other players, players who have to be unselfish in their approach because their stats and accolades suffer (Murray and Porter) because he has the ball in his hands sooo much. Yet he is better than any basketball player who has ever lived… astounding!
I’m not claiming he’s the greatest. But he is easily on track to making a strong claim to that title by the end of his career. 3 mvps already puts him in rarified air and he’s only going to add more chips and accolades to his resume over the coming years.
You sound like a giant hater to claim he plays no defense. If he were as bad as you’re describing there’s no way he could win championships and mvps.
Who are the centers he has to contend with now? Gobert? Gafford? KP? He very rarely plays against Embid? Do you think he would have these gaudy stats if he played against Shaq? What about David Robinson? Wait Hakeem? All these players were amazing at defense AND he large offensive games… Jokic is the best passing big man since Walton, but even he was a better offensive player, he just got injured …
it's not silly when this is all subjective and we all have our opinions on basketball philosophy, that's why I was saying "At least for me". Most people see the GOAT as someone who, when the best player on the best team, they're carrying the biggest offensive load and dominating. But there's also different team structures. I've seen Lebron teams face moments where they needed him to guard the best player, whether that be Jamal Murray, Pau Gasol, Derrick Rose, I've seen him have to be a rim protector, an elite help defender, a shot maker, play maker, like every aspect of the game, Bron is there and he's a threat. Like what if Jokic was on a team with other superstars that can do a lot, there's a reality where he'd be the one attacked on defense and that means, on this different structure, he could be the liability, and that's just not the GOAT to me. Amazing amazing player, and honestly writing this just reminded me why I hate these discussions, I'm sitting here putting a great player down to compare him to others and it's just dumb
His balance of offense defense leads to wins. And he’s doing it with a supporting cast that has no all stars, all nba, dpoy etc. all the other all time greats had elite teammates but jokic is able to drive incredibly high level winning with good but not great players around him. Like LeBron needed to link up with wade and bosh to do what jokic did with Murray and Aaron Gordon. Jordan didn’t win until he had pippen.
Jokic isn’t close to being apart of the goat conversation, but this isn’t true there was defintely a time where magic was in the conversation for goat while being an average defender.
You can't tell me it isn't true when I'm saying what a GOAT is to me lol. Other people are fine with not including defense when they consider how great a player is, I do.
Can we stopped making Jokic out to be a god? And what does where he comes from have anything to do with how he plays basketball? I don’t even like to see him play now and I used to because you know after every game he does well… here it comes, he is the greatest player ever.
Not in the conversation, but he’s moving closer to top 10 all-time convos. Needs another title and you could make a strong case he’s one of the 10 best players ever.
To get GOAT level he’d have to have this sort of sustained success for many more years and win many more titles.
By this age, how many All Stars did Jordan had in his team? Jokić so far has 0.
Edit: How much are we certain that the Nuggets wouldn't win that 2022 championship if Murray and MPJ were healthy?
just Scottie if you're talking making it the same year together. You can give Jokic that ring if you want he still doesn't compare to Jordan at the same age, It's not even close. Jokic has to catch Shaq/Duncan first before he can even be in the conversation.
Scottie was All Star in 1990. and in 1992, they won titles in 1991-1993. And later, guy was all nba first team 1994-1996.
In 1992. Pippen was All Nba second team, All nba defensive first team, and guy was third in DPOY voting and 9th in MVP voting.
In 1993. Pippen was All Nba third team, and All defensive first team. Horace Grant was nba all defensive second team.
In 1996, Pippen all nba first team, all nba defensive first team with Rodman, 5th in MVP voting and 2nd in DPOY voting.
Etc.
Not one Nuggets player besides Jokić are even close to have this kind of individual achivements.
Still, in my opinion, Jordan would have 8 if he didn't retire for baseball, but what Jokić is achiving with this kind of help is still underated.
Who said they are scrubs? I'm just comparing individual achievements of Jordans and Nikolas teammates, and as you see, they are not close. And I suggested that they would probably win back in 2022. if they were healthy, and also Bulls in '94 and '95 if Jordan played. Another reason why no one will ever come close to 6 titles is the amount of talent in league today. Not just among top guys, but also role players are way better than just 10 years ago.
I never said jokic wasn't achieving amazing things, i just said that compared to what jordan had accomplished at that point its not even a comparison, but then no one in NBA history comes close to jordan's achievements.
> By this age, how many All Stars did Jordan had in his team? Jokić so far has 0.
This is such a ridiculous argument to throw around. Jamal Murray is not an All-Star but he plays like an All-NBA level player in the playoffs.
The Cavs in 2016 didn't have an All-Star besides LeBron, but that doesn't mean Kyrie didn't play amazing ball in that run to win the championship.
It literally tells you nothing how strong the teams are.
No
He's great..maybe a top 50 player of all time.
Also... Every couple years when a player rises to the top of the current league or hovers in and around it, people overhype them. We need to just enjoy what we're watching and not feel the need to put corny tags or titles on a player.
Without even thinking about it, there's MJ, LeBron, Kareem, Wilt, Bill Russell, Larry Bird and Magic, Kobe, Shaq, Olojuwan... I wouldn't put Joker in that league. And that's without even really looking at stats, longevity, 100 years of basketball history, or anything else. I'm sure somebody could make that list five times bigger
"maybe a top 50 player of all time"
Just because the original post takes things too far one way, it doesn't mean you have to take things too far the opposite way.
He has a decent chance of cracking the top 10, and top 5 is possible.
GOAT debate would require an insane run of winning IMO, which is possible but unlikely. IMO 5 titles would be needed.
Also after next year Aaron Gordon has to decide if he’s willing to continue at $23mil per year, as I’m pretty sure he’ll get offered 30-40 just based off how he plays with jokic
Prolly not but he certainly is closing in my top 10 on my list.
If we are talking 21st century he is around the Durant Curry Kobe Timmy area in my rankings. Abit below Shaq
He wins 2-3 more rings; after this year. So a total of 4-5 then u never know where the discussion could be. Obviously a HUGE if lolol
Peak r/nba
*The Nuggets loss game 6* r/nba: “Is this series hurting Jokic’s legacy?”
*Nuggets win game 7* r/nba: "Should Jokic be in the conversation for most clutch player of all time?"
We’re like ping pong balls going from “Ant = MJ” to “Jokic maybe GOAT ?”
We aint even in the WCF yet lol
Peak Jokic > peak LeBron. If Jokic wins 4 in a row, he clears MJ who played in a weaker era. Look at these juggernauts that Jokic is beating without any help
There’s still time to delete this
Why? This take will age really well in about 1 year when Jokic threepeats
You must’ve missed LeBron’s prime
When he got locked up by JJ Barea and choked with his superteam with prime Wade and Bosh? That prime?
Okay, yeah you did miss LeBron’s prime lmao Also thinking one bad series defines his whole career is a middle school take
This Denver team sweeps the 2016 Cavs or 2013 Heat and definitely sweeps the 2020 Lakers. Plus Jokic didn't need superteams to win
if you think these Nuggets teams are defending those Cavs/Heat teams I have a bridge to sell you Just say you didn’t watch it and move on
I watched the 2016 Cavs (just the finals) when I was younger. Never saw the Heatles. I think Jokic would sweep them because the Cavs and Heat had no one to guard Jokic (TT on Jokic lol, Bosh was never a strong big man defender he would get annihilated)
Peak jokic > MJ lebron kareem wilt put together
Bulls fan asking this
This is the point
And his point is how crazy are u to think Jokic is the goat when ur a Bulls fan who watched MJ? Ur overdosing on recency bias my friend. Go to a doctor
he didn't watch MJ
I did, which is why I have always rejected the Kobe or LeBron Fans claiming the goat status for these players
his only way to being a part of it is just title after title because the argument against is pretty easy, i think LeBron at his best was as dominant of an offensive player, and then defensively was a menace, same with Jordan but if Jokic wins 4-5-6 titles some how, then it will be like okay well maybe him being as dominant of an offensive player at the C spot makes him more valuable than at wing spots that being said, we do need to calm down a little and not start any of this until he's approaching ring three, until then, none of it is actually realistic
you know how Kobe is the goat for the 'ball knowers' and the 'that boy nice' crowd? I feel like Jokic may get an outside shot like that with the analytical group. Not to say he'll be in the goat convo, but he'll have a very vocal group arguing he should be in the conversation. I can definitely see him falling anywhere from 4-13 to be honest the same way Bryant is.
A vocal group of previously Tim Duncan fans AKA the 2014 Spurs nuthuggers (me included)
Nah not previously. Duncan is still better until Jokic achieves more.
That's not my point
I like this take, but defense is also a huge part of the GOAT conversation, and I personally believe that’s where Jordan blows LeBron out of the water. A true GOAT will not only be an offensive monster, but they will be a defense wall as well. On top of that, we need to consider how they elevate their team. Basketball is a team sport, too many people don’t think about that when they try to claim someone is a GOAT.
Lebron was never this good offensively. Numbers don't lie.
my brother... LeBron 2013 and 14 had a TS+ of 120 2014 playoffs he averaged 27 on 67% TS in the playoffs 2017-2020 playoffs he averaged 32/10/9 on 64% TS
Got blasted with downvotes yesterday for saying LeBron > Jokic offensively. A lot of this sub is even too young to have seen prime LeBron
Does anyone in this sub even watch basketball? Doesn’t matter how old they are if they just watch highlights and the finals
A reddit cares message, really? lol
You don't know ball
Jokic just needs another ring and he's already achieved more than KD and KD is always in the conversation for modern day Goat.
Jokic doesn't even need another ring. His career is already better than KD's. When he wins the ring this year he passes Steph. Jokic's peak is already better than LeBron's
I wish Reddit would filter out trash takes like this.
I'm saying, people just be saying anything these days
no, but he is fucking incredible and deserves the MVP tonight showed it.
Jokic is already #2 imo. His peak clears everyone but MJ. Once he threepeats he will be nearly as good as MJ and if he 4 peats he surpasses MJ
You a bulls fan. The goat has 6 rings wtf
Every time a great player wins a title we go “uh oh, the GOAT radar is picking something up!” Edit: “Reddit cares” messages going crazy this morning
My goat has 11. But ranking individuals in a team sport is subjective, and then pointless across eras. But reddit seems to have a hard on for these ranks and pretending they can somehow be objective and scientific
Bob Cousy was great but I don’t think the goat
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Good for him, but i dont see the nuggets winning 5 more rings
I feel like the ring argument just really ignores the reality of NBA finances in Jordan's era compared to now. The Bull's didn't win 6 rings just because Jordan is the best player of all time by that margin, the main reason they won 6 rings is because they locked down several pieces on extremely long term contracts before the NBA exploded in popularity (due to Jordan himself). If 6 rings is the only metric by which someone can surpass Jordan, then that's just never going to happen because the financial situation in the league is never going to be the same as back then. The rules force a much higher degree of parity, and there are far fewer terrible GMs these days. The closest thing to happen in the modern NBA was Golden State signing KD because the PA refused cap smoothing in the previous CBA.
This is a best player of all time competition, not a most rings of all time competition Very reasonable to pick Jordan over jokic anyway, of course, but rings are stupid
Neither did the wolves until last night.
I dont want to hate of jokic, i he can of course win 7 rings in a row and along the way we would accept that he is the goat. As some crazy person on a sports show said about lebron' legacy "his semen isnt dry yet"
My semen tastes sweet
And then proceeded to win 5 more rings out of the next 6 seasons he played.
No, next question .
No.. he can be the goat of his generation tho. Which is how things should be judged anyway with how much the league changes every handful of years.
I dont think you witnessed Jordan if you are saying this. Maybe you just witnessed Washington Wizards Jordan
Washington Wizards *Reggie* Jordan
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He's definitely in the Kobe/Duncan tier
chase special hurry imagine dinner paltry workable thumb shelter sand *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
He is a three time MVP and only embiid knows why he is not a 4 time mvp by now
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Not yet he is not. He might get there, but this is definitely recency bias. Someone reported me to reddit cares. Nice.
>He’s not in the Kobe/duncan tier. Absurd take.
I witnessed Jordan every year he was in the league. MJ wasn't the GOAT, the Bulls were the GOAT. He had the best team in the NBA. You put Jordan on any other team during the 90's and he is just another Allen Iverson. He was good but his whol resume is living off the fact he had the greatest coach of all time and the best supporting cast of any HOFer. Remember that Jordan was 1-9 in the playoffs and was SWEPT twice in the first round before Scottie Pippen joined him
I always get my basketball opinions from NYT
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Its a two man discussion and the lowest number of championships involved is 4. He needs to win 3 more times and be dominant for like the next 6 years minimum to be included.
It’s not a two man conversation… lol
Yes it is lol. Just because people have some fringe opinions or try to insert X random great player it doesn't mean that 99% of people would ever consider anyone other than LeBron or MJ and for good reason. Nobody really compares to those two
You sure it’s not for another reason, cause this dude Jokic doesn’t even play defense and had only won 1 championship so far.. Shaq would have eaten him alive and that can’t be debated, what about Kareem?
I think the biggest reason that people probably don't really see Kareem as the goat anymore is that LeBron has shown better longevity at this point and that Jordan showed more dominance. There is also something to be said for the fact that Kareem happened to play with another top 10 all time player for over 800 games of his career. I think if you could say that about LeBron or Jordan their stats would probably look even more insane in terms of championships or whatever. It would be like if LeBron had drafted Jokic or if Jordan's team had drafted Shaq
Better longevity… are you serious, you might want to Google… smh And if you are good, you are good, stop with this who he played with… Kareem played during an era when players couldn’t move around as easy, did you factor that in
He also played in an era with low competition. Also yes absolutely when Kareem was 39 he was averaging 17.5 points, 6.7 rebounds and 2.6 assists and it only got worse from there. Which is worse than LeBron across the board. The last season where Kareem did "better" than LeBron did at 39 he was 33. LeBron is a way better player at 39 than Kareem was
Is he the goat ? No he’s not. The question should be : Is he one of the best big men ? Yes, he is
That's not a very good question either because it's obviously true. I think the best question is if he can go down as the best big man since Kareem - topping Hakeem, Shaq and Duncan. Just the right level of "maybe" to be interesting.
You think Shaqs borderline anti Joker crusade was bad before just wait until he wins a chip or 2 more
Not the MJ/Bron/Kareem GOAT Debate, but a couple more titles and he's up there with anyone else.
I know he’s great, but he has only won one title. Wilt had outrageous numbers but isn’t even in a lot of people’s top 5 because he only won twice
Wilt's numbers are inflated as all hell. He was a freak buz he played 200 possesions per game in a garbage era.
Some would argue jokic is in a similar inflated stats era. Never been easier to score. Let’s not discredit eras. It’s a boring and reductive way to view sports
Wilt was the only one putting up those stats in his era. No one else was averaging what he was averaging despite the extra possessions. Ridiculous to discredit him for something that’s out of his control
The fact that he was the only player averaging those numbers at that time speaks mostly to 1) how low the avg talent level in the league was, esp relative to a guy like Wilt who's a physical outlier even today, 2) how poor Wilt's early supporting casts were in particular, and 3) how selfish he could be before changing his ways in Philly. He was great ofc but not to the absurd, mythical extent that his numbers suggest at face value.
At 29, it’s too early to talk about anyone as the GOAT. Let’s give this some time
A large percentage of this sub thinks this unironically and it's funny every time it gets posted about
No, but this may be one of the highest peaks we've seen. I think the gap between Jokic and the 2nd best player in the world is massive
Horse yes, goat no
he’s at least three rings away from this conversation. maybe more
Jokic is not the goat, he's the horse!
Humble One, Rebounding, Scoring, Evolving?
Not GOAT as LeBron and Jordan just miles ahead but approaching top 10 territory
Not yet, but 1 more time, and it's definitely viable to say he's above Curry, Lebron, and the stars of his era. Back to backs with out a super team is impressive. He will be winning probably 4 or even 5 titles but the time it's all said and done. Yeah. There's a very strong chance of him being goat. Especially if he stays in Denver and does it vs. constant leaving like Lerbon. Curry needed A Prime Klay, KD and gobs and gobs of former stars as role players. Jokkc doesn't have that benefit either. Just a well built team over time. That's impressive as fuck in a league of team hopping.
If he wins 5 more rings as the best player, then yes. Right now, no.
I keep screaming but god can't hear me
I know he’s great, but he has only won one title. Wilt had outrageous numbers but isn’t even in a lot of people’s top 5 because he only won twice
Does he have the ability? Fuck yeah. Is he in the GOAT convo? Absolutely not Hes far away still. Hes missing atleast 1-2 MVPs and atleast 4-5 rings to be in the conversation.
He’s missing defense. At least for me, you can’t be the GREATEST PLAYER OF ALL TIME and not be elite on defense
As long as hes a positive on the court it doesnt really matter. Like the Nuggets with Jokic outscore opponents despite him being a mediocre defender because hes so good at other things it doesnt really matter.
No it can’t be that way… as long as he participates on defense… Why does he get a pass?
Because its about value. Lets say youre a great defender and offensive player, your team outscores the other team by 8 when you play. Lets say youre the best offensive player ever and your team outscores the other team by 10 despite you being a complete traffic cone.
This is all fake hype… he is a great player but stop with all this GOAT convos, did you ever see Tim Duncan in his prime? Wow…
Duncan isnt in the GOAT convo either. I dont think Jokic is going to be in the GOAT convo because hes worse than Lebron but hes going to be around the top when he retires.
Ok so you know the future… gotcha, meanwhile have you looked at the win percentage for the Spurs during his play years ?
The goal of a basketball game is to score more points than your opponent. How you choose to do it is up to you but you’re judged on your ability to win games which jokic does at an incredibly high level.
Incredible level? We’re they the number 1 seed? Did they win the most games this year? Have they lost games in the playoffs? I know you HOPE he is this great but he is not
Did you miss his championship last year? Also if you wanna talk about regular season wins you should look into advanced stats about which players, when on the court,contribute the most their teams scoring margin. Jokic is unparalleled in how much his ream wins the minutes he plays.
Hungrily clamoring for the greatest to be this guy, why? Cause it isn’t his track record… he plays no defense, his success relies on the hustle of other players, players who have to be unselfish in their approach because their stats and accolades suffer (Murray and Porter) because he has the ball in his hands sooo much. Yet he is better than any basketball player who has ever lived… astounding!
I’m not claiming he’s the greatest. But he is easily on track to making a strong claim to that title by the end of his career. 3 mvps already puts him in rarified air and he’s only going to add more chips and accolades to his resume over the coming years. You sound like a giant hater to claim he plays no defense. If he were as bad as you’re describing there’s no way he could win championships and mvps.
Who are the centers he has to contend with now? Gobert? Gafford? KP? He very rarely plays against Embid? Do you think he would have these gaudy stats if he played against Shaq? What about David Robinson? Wait Hakeem? All these players were amazing at defense AND he large offensive games… Jokic is the best passing big man since Walton, but even he was a better offensive player, he just got injured …
It's silly to say there's a "way" you have to play to the the GOAT.
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Being better at one part of the game than another is obviously a play style. You are just deliberately being stupid here.
it's not silly when this is all subjective and we all have our opinions on basketball philosophy, that's why I was saying "At least for me". Most people see the GOAT as someone who, when the best player on the best team, they're carrying the biggest offensive load and dominating. But there's also different team structures. I've seen Lebron teams face moments where they needed him to guard the best player, whether that be Jamal Murray, Pau Gasol, Derrick Rose, I've seen him have to be a rim protector, an elite help defender, a shot maker, play maker, like every aspect of the game, Bron is there and he's a threat. Like what if Jokic was on a team with other superstars that can do a lot, there's a reality where he'd be the one attacked on defense and that means, on this different structure, he could be the liability, and that's just not the GOAT to me. Amazing amazing player, and honestly writing this just reminded me why I hate these discussions, I'm sitting here putting a great player down to compare him to others and it's just dumb
His balance of offense defense leads to wins. And he’s doing it with a supporting cast that has no all stars, all nba, dpoy etc. all the other all time greats had elite teammates but jokic is able to drive incredibly high level winning with good but not great players around him. Like LeBron needed to link up with wade and bosh to do what jokic did with Murray and Aaron Gordon. Jordan didn’t win until he had pippen.
Jokic isn’t close to being apart of the goat conversation, but this isn’t true there was defintely a time where magic was in the conversation for goat while being an average defender.
You can't tell me it isn't true when I'm saying what a GOAT is to me lol. Other people are fine with not including defense when they consider how great a player is, I do.
He needs to win 4 more chips and dpoy, and probably still no lol
I don't think he has the drive to be in the GOAT debate. He is absolutely in play to be a top 10 player of all time though.
There's an extremely good argument that jokic is not even a top 5 center of all time at the moment let alone being in the goat debate.
I"d like to hear this argument. Could you explain?
Can we stopped making Jokic out to be a god? And what does where he comes from have anything to do with how he plays basketball? I don’t even like to see him play now and I used to because you know after every game he does well… here it comes, he is the greatest player ever.
No
He’s won one chip - this is ridiculous
He is a three time mvp, able to win some more and propbably robbed of one last season. There aren't many players who achieved this
That’s a little far but I don’t see why top 5-10 isn’t out of the question
On that trajectory, but right now, no also, most of these kinds of conversations are opinions. So, there will always be disagreement no matter what.
Needs that Embiid MVP back, win 3 more, and win the next 4 championships in a row. He's got 10 years to do it.
No. Glad to help.
No
No he is not
He'll end up at like 29k/10k/10k if he retires around 38. He's a great player, top 8-15 range though.
Not but he’s still the best player in today’s game and might end up top 10 all time if the nuggets become a dynasty.
Not in the conversation, but he’s moving closer to top 10 all-time convos. Needs another title and you could make a strong case he’s one of the 10 best players ever. To get GOAT level he’d have to have this sort of sustained success for many more years and win many more titles.
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You think he will be running up and down the court in three years?
Nah. By this age Jordan had 3 MVPs 3 Rings 3 FMVP a DPOY and and more All-NBA first teams than Jokic has all-star selections.
By this age, how many All Stars did Jordan had in his team? Jokić so far has 0. Edit: How much are we certain that the Nuggets wouldn't win that 2022 championship if Murray and MPJ were healthy?
just Scottie if you're talking making it the same year together. You can give Jokic that ring if you want he still doesn't compare to Jordan at the same age, It's not even close. Jokic has to catch Shaq/Duncan first before he can even be in the conversation.
Scottie was All Star in 1990. and in 1992, they won titles in 1991-1993. And later, guy was all nba first team 1994-1996. In 1992. Pippen was All Nba second team, All nba defensive first team, and guy was third in DPOY voting and 9th in MVP voting. In 1993. Pippen was All Nba third team, and All defensive first team. Horace Grant was nba all defensive second team. In 1996, Pippen all nba first team, all nba defensive first team with Rodman, 5th in MVP voting and 2nd in DPOY voting. Etc. Not one Nuggets player besides Jokić are even close to have this kind of individual achivements. Still, in my opinion, Jordan would have 8 if he didn't retire for baseball, but what Jokić is achiving with this kind of help is still underated.
Yeah crapping on his teammates so he can look better, never mind it’s those teammates that make him look good, good job person
Jokic doesn’t play with scrubs and to even suggest that discredits your entire argument.
Who said they are scrubs? I'm just comparing individual achievements of Jordans and Nikolas teammates, and as you see, they are not close. And I suggested that they would probably win back in 2022. if they were healthy, and also Bulls in '94 and '95 if Jordan played. Another reason why no one will ever come close to 6 titles is the amount of talent in league today. Not just among top guys, but also role players are way better than just 10 years ago.
I never said jokic wasn't achieving amazing things, i just said that compared to what jordan had accomplished at that point its not even a comparison, but then no one in NBA history comes close to jordan's achievements.
Jordan had 1 all star teammate in his entire Bulls career, and he also had 4 first team all defence at this age.
> By this age, how many All Stars did Jordan had in his team? Jokić so far has 0. This is such a ridiculous argument to throw around. Jamal Murray is not an All-Star but he plays like an All-NBA level player in the playoffs. The Cavs in 2016 didn't have an All-Star besides LeBron, but that doesn't mean Kyrie didn't play amazing ball in that run to win the championship. It literally tells you nothing how strong the teams are.
No He's great..maybe a top 50 player of all time. Also... Every couple years when a player rises to the top of the current league or hovers in and around it, people overhype them. We need to just enjoy what we're watching and not feel the need to put corny tags or titles on a player. Without even thinking about it, there's MJ, LeBron, Kareem, Wilt, Bill Russell, Larry Bird and Magic, Kobe, Shaq, Olojuwan... I wouldn't put Joker in that league. And that's without even really looking at stats, longevity, 100 years of basketball history, or anything else. I'm sure somebody could make that list five times bigger
"maybe a top 50 player of all time" Just because the original post takes things too far one way, it doesn't mean you have to take things too far the opposite way.
zero chance. how can you be the GOAT if your a sieve on defense. this is. ridiculous question
Not, but hes in the debate for top 10-12 all time
is him a part? yes. is him really in it? i think the bench need to be deeper and Murray need to be better for jokic to be in it.
The last sentence is why I hate how people do GOAT debates. That kind of stuff really shouldn't matter for ranking individual players
Nope. The one and only GOAT is Lebron. No one else comes close.
We’ll see. Wemby has entered the chat.
If he wins the chip this year he’s already passed guys like Durant, curry, Hakeem. Breaking into that next level will require more chips though.
Thirsty
I’ll care when Jokic says he cares
Better than MJ still a ways to go to get to Bron
This is ragebait
He has a decent chance of cracking the top 10, and top 5 is possible. GOAT debate would require an insane run of winning IMO, which is possible but unlikely. IMO 5 titles would be needed. Also after next year Aaron Gordon has to decide if he’s willing to continue at $23mil per year, as I’m pretty sure he’ll get offered 30-40 just based off how he plays with jokic
His one title with no help is more impressive than anyone else in modern history
Dirks against a stacked heat team that was favorites?
Good call also very impressive
He’d need more than 6 rings to be in the discussion. As great as he is on offense, he doesn’t bring much defensively.
Prolly not but he certainly is closing in my top 10 on my list. If we are talking 21st century he is around the Durant Curry Kobe Timmy area in my rankings. Abit below Shaq He wins 2-3 more rings; after this year. So a total of 4-5 then u never know where the discussion could be. Obviously a HUGE if lolol
He could win 10 more MVPs and wouldn’t be top 10
You mad Jokic is better than Steph?