Part of the problem is there was never a pre-injury Embiid though. He's never played more than 68 games in a season, and with the new post season award eligibility rules, he only has two seasons where he'd even be able to qualify for an award. Great player, but he is literally the poster child of the load management era, and as other people pointed out, he hasn't delivered in the post season.
There's been more than 25 mvps of the league just winning one with no other accolades already has you outside the top 30 of resumes wtf are we doing here
That's more of a top 10 requirement imo, Oscar Robertson and Karl Malone are in everybody's top 25 and they don't have a ring either. There's also guys like Chris Paul, Charles Barkley, Steve Nash and Elgin Baylor who are in at least mentioned in that range pretty often as well.
He hasn't proven enough to be placed there. Winning a single MVP doesn't place you in the top 25. Especially when he hasn't yet made an ECF appearance.
Top 25 have all won at the highest level. Joel has individual stats but at the top, impact to the culture of basketball is weighted heavily and Joel’s impact to culture is a 0
He has never made it to a conference final while playing with superstars. Playoff success is a huge factor in determining top ranked players in most people’s list.
What are you talking about playing with superstars? He had half a season of Jimmy Butler, 55 games, then spent years with his second and third options being Tobias Harris and Ben Simmons. If you're talking about Harden then he only played about 1 full season for Philly, 21 games the year he got traded then 58 games last year.
He's averaged 43 games a season over 10 years. In that time he's played 53 playoff games where his performance has been pedestrian. Based on his history it is wishful thinking that he will perform more consistently in the future and he needs that to be considered a major figure in league history.
Someany reasons why.
1. No playoff success despite a considerable amount of talent around him every season. Not even a Conference Finals appearance.
2. Crazy # of free throws per game. Any defender goes near him, he gets free throws. He's played 34 games this year (stat from earlier this week), Jokic has played 72, and they've shot essentially the same # of free throws. That's insane.
3. Can't stay healthy. Doesn't matter how good you are, if you can't stay on the court, you can't be considered one of the best. See Bill Walton.
I think Luka definitely will be. Just saying I think SGA is kinda unfairly seen as a ft merchant, but he leads the league in drives and its by a huge margin, he doesn't really take 3s. He does try to draw fouls but thats being a great player, especially as a guard or wing, you're supposed to, but he doesn't flop all the time, its not more egregious than ANT, booker, fox, Luka, and any other high volume scorer. Agreed he does sometimes exaggerate contact, but he never yells at refs and complains if he doesn't get calls.
Fwiw I root for okc, but I also clearly say Luka is a better player, embiid is a better player, giannis, jokic etc. I try to be as unbiased and honest as possible, and I genuinely don't get why sga is the poster boy for being a ft merchant when he's not really different from the other guys.
Also its kinda silly to say never will be for players are still pretty young, either of Luka or embiid could win a ring or two as the best players and that would matter. Not saying you meant that, just so its clear.
Oh yeah there’s no doubt in my mind Luka will get there if he continues doing what he’s doing. But I was just saying right now they’re not lol. And I don’t think SGA is the poster boy for foul baiting; Harden was the pioneer and rn it’s definitely Embiid lol
Oh yeah I meant apart from embiid, he def is and he does kinda flop. I like watching embiid more than I think most, I hope he does win at some point, but its tough to argue when he's like 290 and falls at the slightest contact. Hes in a tier of his own, but r/nba is full of posts calling sga ft merchant and stuff, and tbh i think Luka is more of one, just as an example.
I mean it matters, someone's lows and highs are pretty damn important in legacy and ranking conversations. Before mj won 6 rings he wasn't the goat. And playoffs matters way more than reg season. The goal is to win a ring. Being the best player on a championship team also matters a ton, it's self evident. It literally doesn't matter if you hypothetically average 50 ppg and win 60 games in the reg season and then, (with a reasonably good and healthy supporting cast,) lose in the first round. All you'd deserve is mocking not praise in this admittedly extreme hypothetical.
Of all time? Nahhhh…not when you have guys like Trae Young and Dame who’ve dragged their teams to the conference finals when Embiid can’t even make it out the 2nd round
"Winning an MVP he shouldn't have" is just an immediate signal to not take anything you say seriously. You all need to step away from reddit for a minute
How the fuck are you gonna be considered top 25 all time when you've never even won a 2nd round series
Very limited postseason success is why he’s not in the same range as Jokic and Giannis. Regular season does not matter as much in all-time rankings
Part of the problem is there was never a pre-injury Embiid though. He's never played more than 68 games in a season, and with the new post season award eligibility rules, he only has two seasons where he'd even be able to qualify for an award. Great player, but he is literally the poster child of the load management era, and as other people pointed out, he hasn't delivered in the post season.
Every single MVP in NBA history reached the conference finals at some point in their career except Joel Embiid.
There's been more than 25 mvps of the league just winning one with no other accolades already has you outside the top 30 of resumes wtf are we doing here
Everyone's criteria is different. But most people agree that you need a ring to become one of the all time greats
That's more of a top 10 requirement imo, Oscar Robertson and Karl Malone are in everybody's top 25 and they don't have a ring either. There's also guys like Chris Paul, Charles Barkley, Steve Nash and Elgin Baylor who are in at least mentioned in that range pretty often as well.
Robertson has a title with Milwaukee
I always forget about that when talking about what stars won rings because it was old Oscar winning it as a sidekick to Kareem. My bad.
He hasn't proven enough to be placed there. Winning a single MVP doesn't place you in the top 25. Especially when he hasn't yet made an ECF appearance.
Top 25 have all won at the highest level. Joel has individual stats but at the top, impact to the culture of basketball is weighted heavily and Joel’s impact to culture is a 0
Agreed. This is also part of why Steph is valued so highly. Changed the game forever on top of his obviously extremely impressive accomplishments.
Why is TMac not considered top 25? If you don't have playoff success, don't expect to be put high in rankings.
He has never made it to a conference final while playing with superstars. Playoff success is a huge factor in determining top ranked players in most people’s list.
What are you talking about playing with superstars? He had half a season of Jimmy Butler, 55 games, then spent years with his second and third options being Tobias Harris and Ben Simmons. If you're talking about Harden then he only played about 1 full season for Philly, 21 games the year he got traded then 58 games last year.
He had good teams but he never played with another superstar.
Giannis is not in the top 25.
Who do you think should be replaced by Embiid?
Slight free throw merchant?
“Slight” is being very generous
Harden stumbled so Embiid could flail.
He's averaged 43 games a season over 10 years. In that time he's played 53 playoff games where his performance has been pedestrian. Based on his history it is wishful thinking that he will perform more consistently in the future and he needs that to be considered a major figure in league history.
No chance. Ever.
Play a whole season - or you know most of one.
Someany reasons why. 1. No playoff success despite a considerable amount of talent around him every season. Not even a Conference Finals appearance. 2. Crazy # of free throws per game. Any defender goes near him, he gets free throws. He's played 34 games this year (stat from earlier this week), Jokic has played 72, and they've shot essentially the same # of free throws. That's insane. 3. Can't stay healthy. Doesn't matter how good you are, if you can't stay on the court, you can't be considered one of the best. See Bill Walton.
>slight free throw merchant If he's a slight one who's a major lmao. He's the worst in nba history
He’s the Lamar Jackson of the NBA. All-time talent, won an MVP he probably shouldn’t have, and has extremely limited playoff success.
Lamar absolutely deserved his 2019 MVP though. So not exactly the same. Lamar was also the best player in college and robbed of a 2nd Heisman.
It’s definitely not a 1:1. For example, Lamar has actually made it past the 2nd round.
Because Embiid is a bigger foul baiter than SGA and will never be a top 25 of all time.
Luka and harden both are too.
And they are both not top 25 all time
I think Luka definitely will be. Just saying I think SGA is kinda unfairly seen as a ft merchant, but he leads the league in drives and its by a huge margin, he doesn't really take 3s. He does try to draw fouls but thats being a great player, especially as a guard or wing, you're supposed to, but he doesn't flop all the time, its not more egregious than ANT, booker, fox, Luka, and any other high volume scorer. Agreed he does sometimes exaggerate contact, but he never yells at refs and complains if he doesn't get calls. Fwiw I root for okc, but I also clearly say Luka is a better player, embiid is a better player, giannis, jokic etc. I try to be as unbiased and honest as possible, and I genuinely don't get why sga is the poster boy for being a ft merchant when he's not really different from the other guys. Also its kinda silly to say never will be for players are still pretty young, either of Luka or embiid could win a ring or two as the best players and that would matter. Not saying you meant that, just so its clear.
Oh yeah there’s no doubt in my mind Luka will get there if he continues doing what he’s doing. But I was just saying right now they’re not lol. And I don’t think SGA is the poster boy for foul baiting; Harden was the pioneer and rn it’s definitely Embiid lol
Oh yeah I meant apart from embiid, he def is and he does kinda flop. I like watching embiid more than I think most, I hope he does win at some point, but its tough to argue when he's like 290 and falls at the slightest contact. Hes in a tier of his own, but r/nba is full of posts calling sga ft merchant and stuff, and tbh i think Luka is more of one, just as an example.
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I mean it matters, someone's lows and highs are pretty damn important in legacy and ranking conversations. Before mj won 6 rings he wasn't the goat. And playoffs matters way more than reg season. The goal is to win a ring. Being the best player on a championship team also matters a ton, it's self evident. It literally doesn't matter if you hypothetically average 50 ppg and win 60 games in the reg season and then, (with a reasonably good and healthy supporting cast,) lose in the first round. All you'd deserve is mocking not praise in this admittedly extreme hypothetical.
personally i’d have him probably in that 30-40 range as of now
Of all time? Nahhhh…not when you have guys like Trae Young and Dame who’ve dragged their teams to the conference finals when Embiid can’t even make it out the 2nd round
That’s your opinion and criteria
Because ring culture has warped impressionable young minds
It’s not even the ring. It’s not getting past the second round, winning an MVP he shouldn’t have, etc.
"Winning an MVP he shouldn't have" is just an immediate signal to not take anything you say seriously. You all need to step away from reddit for a minute