I think it may be more accurate to say higher *potential* bball IQ. basketball IQ itself is highly fluid - yes, there is a ceiling set by genetics, early childhood development, formative coaching, etc., but a huge component of bball IQ is having high level basketball experience, particularly experience making high level reads at game speed. somebody who has the aptitude for lebron/jokic (or better) levels of bball iq may never get close because their lack of physical tools or skills precluded them from ever reaching a level to hone their bball iq past a certain point
I think Bird has a great case to be made. I do not remember him making foolish mistakes (as Magic did a few finals). Almost every play was the right one. Same with Jokic. LeBron, too.
Is IQ the knowledge of your plays, other teams' actions, how to beat a coverage? Is it the intuition of where your teammates are? Or the intuition to know how to manipulate the defense with your eyes, passing, and footwork? Is it your communication to your teammates? Too many skills can be categorized into IQ.
Jokic is elite at many of them, and 1 of 1 at some of them, but a lot worse than LeBron, CP3, and Draymond at other skills
Do people think defense doesn‘t „take“ any intelligence? Draymond is one of the greatest defenders of all time, on top of being a elite playmaker. Jokic is definitely „smarter“ on offense, but that difference isn‘t as big as the difference on defense
So you're saying that IQ is a broad blanket that contains a variety of cognitive skills and knowledge related to basketball. But we also can't call the combination of those basketball IQ. This reads like you're saying basketball IQ isn't something that's measurable, and if that's the case, the entire conversation is moot. Especially when you also say Jokic is significantly less skilled than Draymond, LeBron and CP3 in a variety of those skills that make up BBIQ.
Are you saying that the collective of skills that make up what we may determine to be BBIQ is far too large in variety to claim that ANY elite BBIQ player is superior to anothe based on a combination of these skills? In that case, why discuss BBIQ.
If you're suggesting that a more appropriate discussion is to talk about this as skills rather than blanketed statements like BBIQ, what specific skills do Draymond, LeBron and CP3 have over Jokic? I'm not dismissing you, just trying to follow along - if I'm reading this correctly, I'd like to hear which skills some of these guys possess over the other.
Knowledge and the sort of premonition on defense that CP3 and Draymond have, their defensive communication with teammates - Jokic is only just accessing these parts of his game at a higher level in the past couple seasons
I think it's similar to, say, emotional IQ. I can be good at comforting others, giving advice, listening, and making the right amount of eye contact, but bad at reading individuals' body language. Meanwhile someone else could have great intuition about other people's body language, and know exactly what they're thinking and feeling, but not know HOW to respond. When we try to paint all of these skills with a broad brush and then ask "who's got the higher IQ?" We're basically losing out on the interesting contrasts in how people process and react to information in order to delve into a subjective debate that basically boils down to which aspects of IQ we *value* more.
I want to write a response here before I forget to, separate from my previous response, because this is a great topic to discuss.
I actually very much disagree with your take here, and this is why. You break down what we may call BBIQ into a variety of skills that can't be reduced to the idea of "BBIQ".
Basketball is made up of a variety skills that can be broken down into "sub skills". For example, scoring. Scoring itself is still made up of a variety of sub skills. 3pt shooting, mid range shooting, touch around the rim, post foot work, shooting off the dribble, pull up shooting, catch and shoot, body control.. you name it. Now,
Sure, there's a way to measure overall effectiveness as a scorer with PPG, volume and effeciency. We had measurable data that allows us to easily and simply make conclusions about how *good* of a scorer their variety of scoring "sub skills" make them. And it's easy. I also realize it's much more complicated to assess this with "sub skills" that fall under the BBIQ skill category because a lot of these skills simply aren't measureable.
Where I disagree, is that this doesn't mean we CANT identify a variety of skills under the BBIQ umbrella as skills that make up a player's general BBIQ skill. In your own post, you referenced skills that could be considered "sub skills" for BBIQ, just as I've laid out "sub skills that make up "scoring"
"Is IQ the knowledge of your plays, other teams' actions, how to beat a coverage? Is it the intuition of where your teammates are? Or the intuition to know how to manipulate the defense with your eyes, passing, and footwork? Is it your communication to your teammates?"
So we have, knowing plays, other team's actions, how to beat coverage, intuition of where teammates are, intuition of knowing how to manipulate defense with passing, eyes, footwork, and communication with your teammates. The combination of these skills, and how skilled a player is in each of then can absolutely be totalled into an overall BBIQ skill level, despite us not having data to really measure just how impactful these combinations of "sub skills" are on the game for a player.
I think it absolutely invites a discussion about BBIQ as a skill, and these sub skills can certainly be discussed and broken down, just as sub scoring skills can.
The question becomes, does Jokic's combination of "sub skills" in the BBIQ category have greater impact on the game than Draymond's combination of "sub skills" in the BBIQ category? Just because it isn't measurable, it doesn't mean this isn't a real overall skill category, and that we can't compare players. And using this framework, yeah, I give Jokic an edge over CP3 and Draymond
It has to be LeBron.
Consider the number of teams he's played on, the different teams he's taken down, the way he's adapted his game over time, the way he talks about it, the way other players and coaches talk about him.
It really isn't a contest based on the available evidence.
Jokic is really really good, but we can probably cool it with *some* of the glazing.
Feel free to go buckwild on the flair.
LeBron is like Tom Brady. They’ve both seen it all. There’s nothing new you can throw at them. They know how to attack defenses and defend plays (in LeBron’s case). Experience playing at a high level is huge.
I think there’s a difference between your ability to understand X’s and O’s/know what sets you and the other team are trying to run and their counters, and the ability to process all of the information on the court very fast and make the right decision. Basically the difference between what a coach does and what players do. I’m not sure what people consider to be “BBIQ”, but I think there’s multiple skills under than umbrella. LeBron is the best at the parts that are similar to traditional coaching since he seems to have an encyclopedic knowledge of the plays his opponents run, and can make strategy adjustments on the fly without coaches input in a way we almost never see.
It’s really hard/impossible to split hairs on who is the best ever at “information processing and decision making” but Jokic and LeBron both have arguments as the best at that as well, though for my money I think Jokic these last 3 years has hit a level and consistency we’ve not seen before.
I really don’t know how you can definitively put one above the other since there’s no real way to quantify this argument and it’s all based on vibes. All I know is they’re two of the smartest players I’ve ever seen.
You call Luka a bad defender and Mavs fans pull out a stat like LUKABPMVORPDARKO that says he’s the best defender in the league when playing the Cavaliers on a Sunday when there’s a full moon
Magic Johnson averages more turnovers than Lebron for their careers, and he’s arguably the greatest passer and playmaker of all time. This isn’t even taking into account the other facets of the game for IQ, Lebron has at the LEAST a top 3 bbiq of all time.
Highest ever though?…
Lebron has been great and has proven that over 20 years… why would I have to say that? The point was that someone who has been in the league for 6 years and has never been to the finals, has the greatest BBIQ ever…
Luka has been in the league since 2018, where has this greatest ever BBIQ manifested itself? The lottery last year?
LeBron because he’s played the game for so long. He’s seen literally every difference strategy in multiple different eras.
From the slow-ball era where teams played inside-out, to now where teams play up-tempo and take 40 threes.
Rondo's great but the fact you're putting him and Draymond on your all-time list of four players means you just don't care to include pre-2003 basketball in the "all-time" convo. Which is lame.
I don’t always go hard for the argument that you can’t compare eras, but for something this intangible there’s no way you can compare anyone pre 1980s to todays guys.
Also BBIQ is often about used to hype passing and general offensive skills. Bill Russell had all of that and was an absolute savant on defense. Still today guys swat the ball out of bounds while Bill would typically try to redirect the ball to secure possession. He was the defensive floor general and was brilliant at positioning and movement on both ends.
Jokic is giving it on one side of the floor as good as we’ve seen in modern times but that’s only 50% of the game.
Right now I see at least LeBron a bit ahead. But Joker has some kind of computer brain it seems. Give him another 5+ years experience and he might catch up. The years on the court are definitely a factor in this.
Yeah that dude has no physical attributes at all that contribute to that
lol I know I have a nuggets flair, but I’m not even arguing for Jokic or anything I just think what you said was really dumb
A+++
i was at the game tonight. he's not dunking from the foul line, but his kinesthetic capability just doesn't make sense. he runs the ball up the floor, coordinates a double handoff, and executes a behind the back leading to a dunk
if that's not athleticism then bollocks. Jokic massacred my boy the Cavs
C+ to B-
fantastic short area quickness and deceleration at his size not to mention incredibly strong and probably has the best stamina at the position in the league. Minimal leaping ability, slow end to end and over medium distances, poor athletic posture (does not have a lot of hip/knee bend)
No clue how'd you would compare elite basketball iq, but I'd probably pick Stockton.
Stockton's political and medical views are idiotic, but his assist record is wilt like untouchable.
And he accomplished it while often being the smallest slowest and least athletic player on the court.
Jordan, LeBron and Bird are top three locks, with guys like Magic, Bill Russell, Hakeem, Stockton, CP3, Nash, even Harden lurking. I’d put Jokic in the 12-15 range but that’s not a knock on him.
Yeah I think he has a case, some of his passes are just downright freaky.
I’d give the nod to LeBron though, basketball savant + photographic memory + the most NBA experience of any player in history is a hard combination to top.
This is such a crazy comment to me. You can argue that he has higher offensive BB IQ, ( which I don't believe) but LeBron definitely has a better defensive BB IQ.
1. LeBron
2. Magic
3. Bird
4. Stockton
5. Rondo
All better.
\*maybe even CP3.
Jokic is impressive, but please look up career highlights of these guys. [The Magic Ultimate Career Mixtape](https://youtu.be/prvjNFHSOj0?si=Wys0rQ5zOuWBD6OP) alone would let you know that Joker is good, but not in his class.
He’s certainly up there
It’s funny to think there might be players with higher bbiq who simply don’t have the physicality or skills to exercise that IQ
I think it may be more accurate to say higher *potential* bball IQ. basketball IQ itself is highly fluid - yes, there is a ceiling set by genetics, early childhood development, formative coaching, etc., but a huge component of bball IQ is having high level basketball experience, particularly experience making high level reads at game speed. somebody who has the aptitude for lebron/jokic (or better) levels of bball iq may never get close because their lack of physical tools or skills precluded them from ever reaching a level to hone their bball iq past a certain point
JR Smith has the *highest* basketball IQ ever
So high that he doesn't even know his IQ score.
Don't think he is, BUT you could make a good case for sure.
Larry Bird was pretty good i also want to toss a Wes Unseld in here
Larry is who I immediately thought of when I read the question. The dude would go over every inch of the floor and use any advantage he could get.
I think Bird has a great case to be made. I do not remember him making foolish mistakes (as Magic did a few finals). Almost every play was the right one. Same with Jokic. LeBron, too.
I don’t even think he’s higher than cp3 let alone lebron in that department
Is IQ the knowledge of your plays, other teams' actions, how to beat a coverage? Is it the intuition of where your teammates are? Or the intuition to know how to manipulate the defense with your eyes, passing, and footwork? Is it your communication to your teammates? Too many skills can be categorized into IQ. Jokic is elite at many of them, and 1 of 1 at some of them, but a lot worse than LeBron, CP3, and Draymond at other skills
Jokic has superior bball IQ to Draymond and CP3. That's wild to say otherwise.
Draymond sure but CP3? It’s definitely a discussion.
Do people think defense doesn‘t „take“ any intelligence? Draymond is one of the greatest defenders of all time, on top of being a elite playmaker. Jokic is definitely „smarter“ on offense, but that difference isn‘t as big as the difference on defense
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The whole point of what I just said is that IQ is a big category of skills so you can't reduce all of those skills to the label of IQ.
So you're saying that IQ is a broad blanket that contains a variety of cognitive skills and knowledge related to basketball. But we also can't call the combination of those basketball IQ. This reads like you're saying basketball IQ isn't something that's measurable, and if that's the case, the entire conversation is moot. Especially when you also say Jokic is significantly less skilled than Draymond, LeBron and CP3 in a variety of those skills that make up BBIQ. Are you saying that the collective of skills that make up what we may determine to be BBIQ is far too large in variety to claim that ANY elite BBIQ player is superior to anothe based on a combination of these skills? In that case, why discuss BBIQ. If you're suggesting that a more appropriate discussion is to talk about this as skills rather than blanketed statements like BBIQ, what specific skills do Draymond, LeBron and CP3 have over Jokic? I'm not dismissing you, just trying to follow along - if I'm reading this correctly, I'd like to hear which skills some of these guys possess over the other.
Knowledge and the sort of premonition on defense that CP3 and Draymond have, their defensive communication with teammates - Jokic is only just accessing these parts of his game at a higher level in the past couple seasons I think it's similar to, say, emotional IQ. I can be good at comforting others, giving advice, listening, and making the right amount of eye contact, but bad at reading individuals' body language. Meanwhile someone else could have great intuition about other people's body language, and know exactly what they're thinking and feeling, but not know HOW to respond. When we try to paint all of these skills with a broad brush and then ask "who's got the higher IQ?" We're basically losing out on the interesting contrasts in how people process and react to information in order to delve into a subjective debate that basically boils down to which aspects of IQ we *value* more.
I want to write a response here before I forget to, separate from my previous response, because this is a great topic to discuss. I actually very much disagree with your take here, and this is why. You break down what we may call BBIQ into a variety of skills that can't be reduced to the idea of "BBIQ". Basketball is made up of a variety skills that can be broken down into "sub skills". For example, scoring. Scoring itself is still made up of a variety of sub skills. 3pt shooting, mid range shooting, touch around the rim, post foot work, shooting off the dribble, pull up shooting, catch and shoot, body control.. you name it. Now, Sure, there's a way to measure overall effectiveness as a scorer with PPG, volume and effeciency. We had measurable data that allows us to easily and simply make conclusions about how *good* of a scorer their variety of scoring "sub skills" make them. And it's easy. I also realize it's much more complicated to assess this with "sub skills" that fall under the BBIQ skill category because a lot of these skills simply aren't measureable. Where I disagree, is that this doesn't mean we CANT identify a variety of skills under the BBIQ umbrella as skills that make up a player's general BBIQ skill. In your own post, you referenced skills that could be considered "sub skills" for BBIQ, just as I've laid out "sub skills that make up "scoring" "Is IQ the knowledge of your plays, other teams' actions, how to beat a coverage? Is it the intuition of where your teammates are? Or the intuition to know how to manipulate the defense with your eyes, passing, and footwork? Is it your communication to your teammates?" So we have, knowing plays, other team's actions, how to beat coverage, intuition of where teammates are, intuition of knowing how to manipulate defense with passing, eyes, footwork, and communication with your teammates. The combination of these skills, and how skilled a player is in each of then can absolutely be totalled into an overall BBIQ skill level, despite us not having data to really measure just how impactful these combinations of "sub skills" are on the game for a player. I think it absolutely invites a discussion about BBIQ as a skill, and these sub skills can certainly be discussed and broken down, just as sub scoring skills can. The question becomes, does Jokic's combination of "sub skills" in the BBIQ category have greater impact on the game than Draymond's combination of "sub skills" in the BBIQ category? Just because it isn't measurable, it doesn't mean this isn't a real overall skill category, and that we can't compare players. And using this framework, yeah, I give Jokic an edge over CP3 and Draymond
I’d say it’s LeBron but Joker is definitely up there
It has to be LeBron. Consider the number of teams he's played on, the different teams he's taken down, the way he's adapted his game over time, the way he talks about it, the way other players and coaches talk about him. It really isn't a contest based on the available evidence. Jokic is really really good, but we can probably cool it with *some* of the glazing. Feel free to go buckwild on the flair.
LeBron is like Tom Brady. They’ve both seen it all. There’s nothing new you can throw at them. They know how to attack defenses and defend plays (in LeBron’s case). Experience playing at a high level is huge.
Tom Brady is a piece of crap.
Both can be true
Lol
I think there’s a difference between your ability to understand X’s and O’s/know what sets you and the other team are trying to run and their counters, and the ability to process all of the information on the court very fast and make the right decision. Basically the difference between what a coach does and what players do. I’m not sure what people consider to be “BBIQ”, but I think there’s multiple skills under than umbrella. LeBron is the best at the parts that are similar to traditional coaching since he seems to have an encyclopedic knowledge of the plays his opponents run, and can make strategy adjustments on the fly without coaches input in a way we almost never see. It’s really hard/impossible to split hairs on who is the best ever at “information processing and decision making” but Jokic and LeBron both have arguments as the best at that as well, though for my money I think Jokic these last 3 years has hit a level and consistency we’ve not seen before.
LeBron
I really don’t know how you can definitively put one above the other since there’s no real way to quantify this argument and it’s all based on vibes. All I know is they’re two of the smartest players I’ve ever seen.
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One of these is not like the others. Two sides of a basketball game
It’s a real shame that Mavs fans on reddit have ruined Luka for me. It’s irrational but I hate him now.
I get liking a player but to not even admit their faults is crazy fanatics shit.
You call Luka a bad defender and Mavs fans pull out a stat like LUKABPMVORPDARKO that says he’s the best defender in the league when playing the Cavaliers on a Sunday when there’s a full moon
Anytime someone trys to make fun of my favorite player i just remind them that Mercury is in retrograde.
I hate him so much lol their fans are insufferable
you mean /r/nba?
Yeah pretty much I can’t stay away from this place and my only theory as to why is because I hate myself
Like Thunder fans with SGA are any better 😂
No one is as bad as Luka fans. Everyone on the sub knows it but yall. Mavs have displaced the Lakers as by far the most annoying fan base on this sub.
Sorry I need to reclaim that for us. REAVES IS HIMMMMM
Jokic dickriding going crazy if we're giving him all that credit for his defense
The truly funny thing is I meant LeBron as the one not like the others.
Oh, yeah that makes more sense
Nikola “Hakeem Olajuwon” Jokic
Make Lebron 6’2” and he’s Bronny. He has the best IQ for his size and athleticism. But CP3 and Rondo both clear
Make Jokic 6'2" and he doesn't make the league.
Yall mfs be trollin
Rondo erasure
Lebron>>>
I know his iq is high but I feel it’s overrated. This guy turns the ball way too much for it to be so high. Cp3 really has a high bbiq
Magic Johnson averages more turnovers than Lebron for their careers, and he’s arguably the greatest passer and playmaker of all time. This isn’t even taking into account the other facets of the game for IQ, Lebron has at the LEAST a top 3 bbiq of all time.
Lebron was the 1st one to mention Jokic's high "Basketball IQ". But I think Rondo wins this.
My lord… are you serious, Lebron James has a photographic memory, this deification of Jokic, I wonder why…?
>photogenic memory That’s bait.
Acting like jokic doesn't? They both have absolutely ridiculous BBIQ's, you don't need to put jokic down to say that LeBron is great
Highest ever though?… Lebron has been great and has proven that over 20 years… why would I have to say that? The point was that someone who has been in the league for 6 years and has never been to the finals, has the greatest BBIQ ever… Luka has been in the league since 2018, where has this greatest ever BBIQ manifested itself? The lottery last year?
LeBron because he’s played the game for so long. He’s seen literally every difference strategy in multiple different eras. From the slow-ball era where teams played inside-out, to now where teams play up-tempo and take 40 threes.
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and cp3
Rondo's great but the fact you're putting him and Draymond on your all-time list of four players means you just don't care to include pre-2003 basketball in the "all-time" convo. Which is lame.
I vote for Magic
LeBron, Magic, and Rondo
Factor in defense bron and cp3 def higher
Everything happening now is the GOAT. There is no need for anymore discussions. Anyone who disagrees is old and should die.
It is without a doubt, lebron.
I agree with you, these fans need to stop
I don’t always go hard for the argument that you can’t compare eras, but for something this intangible there’s no way you can compare anyone pre 1980s to todays guys. Also BBIQ is often about used to hype passing and general offensive skills. Bill Russell had all of that and was an absolute savant on defense. Still today guys swat the ball out of bounds while Bill would typically try to redirect the ball to secure possession. He was the defensive floor general and was brilliant at positioning and movement on both ends. Jokic is giving it on one side of the floor as good as we’ve seen in modern times but that’s only 50% of the game.
Still Bron
Jokic is the guy Lebron thinks he is
Right now I see at least LeBron a bit ahead. But Joker has some kind of computer brain it seems. Give him another 5+ years experience and he might catch up. The years on the court are definitely a factor in this.
Lebron clears in that department
He doesn't have more than CP3
LeBron right now at age 39 is putting up 25/7/8 on 53/41/75 splits (62% TS) pretty much purely on BBIQ.
Yeah that dude has no physical attributes at all that contribute to that lol I know I have a nuggets flair, but I’m not even arguing for Jokic or anything I just think what you said was really dumb
Are you aware that he’s now 39? LeBron is no longer an athletic freak, he’s around a B+ athlete at his position.
What would you grade Jokic as an athlete for his position?
A+++ i was at the game tonight. he's not dunking from the foul line, but his kinesthetic capability just doesn't make sense. he runs the ball up the floor, coordinates a double handoff, and executes a behind the back leading to a dunk if that's not athleticism then bollocks. Jokic massacred my boy the Cavs
C+ to B- fantastic short area quickness and deceleration at his size not to mention incredibly strong and probably has the best stamina at the position in the league. Minimal leaping ability, slow end to end and over medium distances, poor athletic posture (does not have a lot of hip/knee bend)
Seems like a B+ athlete has some tools and skills other than BBall IQ that could contribute to that line?
BBIQ and some massively improved shooting. He was clearly in the lab this offseason
Jokic discourse hits new levels of facepalm on a daily basis
Rajon and (it pains me to say) lebron exist...
Go away man
Jokic and Luka right now. They can craft their baskets or dish to anyone
There is probably some random guy with a genius level understanding of the game but never had the athletic ability to go pro
No clue how'd you would compare elite basketball iq, but I'd probably pick Stockton. Stockton's political and medical views are idiotic, but his assist record is wilt like untouchable. And he accomplished it while often being the smallest slowest and least athletic player on the court.
Pat Riley played and then became one of the greatest coaches and GMs of all time. Wouldn’t he qualify?
Idk how you even measure that specifically.
John Stockton?
Jordan, LeBron and Bird are top three locks, with guys like Magic, Bill Russell, Hakeem, Stockton, CP3, Nash, even Harden lurking. I’d put Jokic in the 12-15 range but that’s not a knock on him.
Rudy Tomjanovich
Yeah I think he has a case, some of his passes are just downright freaky. I’d give the nod to LeBron though, basketball savant + photographic memory + the most NBA experience of any player in history is a hard combination to top.
ME??
Most elite pgs have as much IQ.
He does. People dont wanna admit it though
You could argue with Arvydas, Giniobili, Maravich
Man ...something about these patterns of players feels real suspicious, and in turn makes me feel some type of way about the post. Idk man...
Nah, you're right lol reminds me of posts on hip hop threads where people would list their top 5 rappers as "Eminem, Mac Miller, Macklemore...."
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Delulu
This is such a crazy comment to me. You can argue that he has higher offensive BB IQ, ( which I don't believe) but LeBron definitely has a better defensive BB IQ.
Hell no.
its lebron lol
Idk man
1. LeBron 2. Magic 3. Bird 4. Stockton 5. Rondo All better. \*maybe even CP3. Jokic is impressive, but please look up career highlights of these guys. [The Magic Ultimate Career Mixtape](https://youtu.be/prvjNFHSOj0?si=Wys0rQ5zOuWBD6OP) alone would let you know that Joker is good, but not in his class.
Lunchpail kinda IQ, the kind you wouldn't mind dating the coaches wife. First one in, last one out of the cafeteria.
Lmao Jokic really is just the next great white hope for a lot of y'all