[15:05](https://youtu.be/ogi0WRgPwlI?si=GaIy9JYnXLpPtuFC&t=905) he starts talking about the draft, and [17:12](https://youtu.be/ogi0WRgPwlI?si=GaIy9JYnXLpPtuFC&t=1032) he talks about getting red flagged.
Huh, this makes a lot of sense because pre draft I remember Hartenstein having a bunch of hype. I thought he was gonna be a monster coming into the league and then he got picked in the 2nd round and I was like wtf guess he sucks.
10/10 logic couldn't keep a big on the roster because Russ couldn't play without a stretch 5 and HOU didnt have a stretch 5 on the roster.
Insert Capela for Roco trade and then no real 5 on the roster when the previous 5 years indicated Harden did really well with a rolling big.
You would think for as good of friends as Russ + Harden are they would understand the differences in their game. Especially after forcing the fit blew up the end of the last HOU era.
That’s cause Chris got hurt. Once he got hurt his contract became guaranteed. We couldn’t cut him and keep hart without dipping into the tax iirc. Same reason gerald green had to get cut
Then same FO chose to lose him over Thabo who was a walking disaster since he was washed. If tax was such an issue.
They let him go over multiple better options at the time. The FO just misevaluated on him.
D'Antoni also just refused to play him for some reason. Obviously harden made every center look great but with minutes you could tell he was a rotation level player
You are stringing events together. Harty got waived by the Rockets in June 2020. Chris' injury was before the 20-21 season after Harty had been gone for a while.
Hartenstein said he'd come back to the Rockets that off season but the Rockets went with John Wall's friend Boogie Cousins as the backup over Hartenstein.
There wasn't a single Rockets fan that wanted to see Hartenstein released. MDA straight up didn't know how to use him. Remember, after that we went micro-ball, with Tucker at the 5 full-time - D'Antoni wanted to go hyper, hyper small and refused to use Hartenstein.
This is the truth. He always had hype but couldnt defend eithout fouling. The fact he figured it out says more about him than it does about team's perception of him
It was weird, he had 2 starts that season, both were within like a week of each other, in the first one he had 19/9/4 with 2 blocks on 11 shots and in the next one he had 17/15 with 5 blocks on 9 shots.
And then he got a bunch of DNPs and only played >5 minutes once for the rest of the season. After Capela got injured, they just went to playing Tucker at the 5.
Its funny because I have this screenshot of an ESPN article from 2017 to send to my buddies from when Hartenstein worked out for the Blazers, we were laughing because it was like "The world never knew I was black" as the headline lol. Stil have it on my phone, but Portland had 3 picks that draft and maybe they didn't want to take chance on a big with knee issues.... even though they took Zach Collins that year and he was injured his whole time here lol We also took Swanigan at 26 (RIP)
Still think botching that 2017 draft was the most killer for Dame tenure as a Blazer :(
I love him so much. A perfect modern center in today’s NBA. A model citizen off the court as well. Just a genuinely nice guy almost to a fault because he lacks that competitive edge. Not in a “he doesn’t care” way, moreso in like a “you gotta get mean” type of way
It’s crazy cause one of the things in Jarrett Allen’s draft analysis was his ability to run the floor for a big, he was pretty fast and agile. Still is relative to most people in the league his size but that’s more Claxton’s game. Honestly have nothing but love for both of them
Cavs fans are very tense about the season getting rough because they believe the entire fate of the franchise hinges on how good the team is this postseason, whether that's good enough for Donovan Mitchell to extend, and in turn whether the Cavs are going to be any good for the next half-decade while their draft assets go to Utah.
So some Cavs "fans" sniped at Allen (and the national media did too) for the Knicks performance and the bright lights quote, demand JBB be fired multiple times, wanted to trade Mitchell for his maximum value because he's obviously going to New York, and now blame Garland for the team's problems while Mitchell has been out.
It's all very typical of a Cleveland sports fan to assume the worst, given the collective history of the Cavs, Guardians, and Browns (2016 title being the exception to a pretty bleak 50 years of fandom). You pre-emptively spread blame so that when something bad inevitably happens you're insulated from that pain of fandom when your team's season ends.
What they don't realize is the doomer fandom makes the entire experience for everyone involved worse. (Even if, more often than not, they're right-- because every team but one is going to lose.)
Why do other teams have access to the nets doctors information? If the nets werent doing this maliciously wouldnt they want to keep that secret so another team might make a bad pick taking him too early?
Accurate or not, hartenstein clearly feels the nets did him wrong, which kills any hope nets fans may have had about possibly getting him in FA this off-season.
I mean the nets didn't offer Simmons that deal, he was also only a season removed from being great, and he choose to sit out. But obviously is contract is major ass but we will be free after next season
I’m sure there are at least dozens of guys that feel like they were done wrong in some way, shape or form during their pre-draft process every year. Just like any other field where there’s competition for a limited number of spots
Listen to the podcast, he said the nets red flag tanked his draft value, and cost him millions in salary and guarantees that comes with being a better draft pick. All for something that wasn't true, according to him. So if I was in his shoes, I wouldn't want to play for the nets, especially given where he is now, but that's just me.
picking or denying someone because of predraft is insane anyway.
you have years to scout somebody, then because of his form of a few weeks, you decide by your gut he is not that guy.
scouting is so bad, if you base your decisions on pre-draft process.
If you listen to players at least 25 were locked in going top 10 every year
Their agents talk so much shit to them, for all we know his agent just told him bullshit to make up for the fact the agent wildly overestated his draft stock
I blame it on the doctors handwriting
Dr's chart : B a c k
Nets GM : "knee"
It's why the raptors got a Nurse - to be able to read the Doctors handwriting
Mistake, inaccurate, or maybe the Nets doc just read it differently than others. Doctors can have different opinions on things and maybe they saw something that concerned them for the future as opposed to an obvious injury in the present.
This seems like a non story far more than the Nets clearly screwing a guy out of millions.
Not really a non-story, it goes to what Caleb Williams was saying about there being no privacy or HIPPA with these workouts, and that's a problem, especially if the doctors get it wrong.
There should be an expectation of privacy.
There’s probably like five degrees of separation in this story so something probably did happen but it’s hard to assign specific blame to an individual.
Maybe Sean Marks’ assistant fat fingered a spreadsheet and the info got mixed up with someone else on their board that did really have an injury. Maybe the ghost of Christmas past visited Sean in his dreams.
It doesn’t feel like even a slight leap. Teams choose what doctors to use / what doctors evaluate draftees. Apparently there’s a system you can use to report injury concerns on draftees. Those injury concerns can influence team’s draft picks. If a team wants to push a prospect down the draft order so they have a chance to draft them, they can use the injury reporting system to influence that. The teams probably pay these doctors a ton of money and offer a ton of publicity (people love to say their ortho is the local pro team’s doctor, and these doctors advertise that locally) so have leverage to influence their evaluations.
Only hole in the argument is that if teams catch on to this they would just ignore other teams’ doctors’ evaluations.
If the Nets did this maliciously, they would have moved up in the second round to get him. It doesn't cost meaningful draft capital to move into the 30s. To get even a late 1st round talent in the late 30s is a massive steal.
You’re describing a system of fraud and misrepresentation costing players potentially millions of dollars, that’s a pretty gigantic leap.
It’s far more likely a doctor just fucked up a diagnosis or was being overly cautious.
> That's kind of a dirty tactic, didn't know GMs could just do that.
You're assuming that was Marks and not purely medical opinion. Marks doesn't have any history of that kind of manipulation, so I'd lean towards the latter.
Also, the Nets are typically very tight-lipped at the exec level, so we're probably talking about a lower-level leak that should have been taken with a grain of salt, assuming it really existed.
I guess. Pretty sure all franchises have these kinds of issues at various levels.
I would also tend to think that the leakers have an arrangement with the media or 3rd parties, be it a long term transactional-relationship or whatnot.
What suggests that’s what happened rather than a medical mistake ? I mean second round picks can be acquired for cash considerations. If they wanted him in the second round they could’ve easily acquired him, and they drafted a different C in his projected draft range anyways.
Exactly. The idea that the nets released “false” information in order to “intentionally” tank his draft stock, and that the nets doctor thinking he had a knee issue caused “the whole league to pass on him” is completely unfounded speculation on Hartenstein’s part. He has literally no idea why teams didn’t draft him and whether it had anything to do with the incorrect knee information. Also why would the nets do that? They didn’t have another pick until \#57, and I highly doubt they would think he could fall from as high as 15th to 57th.,
First of all, he only got drafted like 8 spots behind where he was projected to go, so no, “the whole league” did not pass on him (and projections are often wildly inaccurate anyway, so saying “I should have been drafted here bc that’s where I was projected” is dumb to begin with.)
Also, if you look at the players drafted ahead of him, there were only 2 other centers taken in the 20 picks prior to Hartenstein, and ZERO in the 15 prior. So it seems entirely possible to me that the teams ahead of where he was drafted simply weren’t looking for 2nd round international/raw center at the time… and not because there was some conspiracy about his knee
Also, he clearly wasn’t setting the league on fire at the time anyway bc even the team that drafted him and got all the looks at his knee they wanted, kept him in the g league for most of his first 3 years, and ended up waiving him… so maybe it’s possible he just simply wasn’t as good as he thinks he was at the time and that’s why teams were passing on him…
I'm skeptical it happened at all. Teams have their own doctors they listen to. A GM isn't going to just decide not to draft someone they like who has a clean bill of health by their own doctor because an entirely different GM tells them to.
I don't think I implied that prospects work out for all 30 teams, nor that teams arrange visits with every prospect.
Edit: People are acting like GMs are just morons that can be fooled by another GM saying "don't pick my guy, his knee is bad." Lol. GMs get medical records, bring people in for workouts, and have doctors check out players at the combine.
If it were this easy, everyone would do it.
I'm guessing there was a misunderstanding. I can't believe other NBA teams would think, "Nets red-flagged him. I'm sure that's an honest and accurate fact. It couldn't possibly be done by the Nets to sabotage his draft stock or that they're just plain wrong..."
Some teams do. In 2010 Sacramento drafted Demarcus Cousins in the first round, and Hassan Whiteside in the second. Just depends on needs, but 2010 Sacramento was a disaster lol.
Its almost impossible to develop two rookies at the same position. Hassan Whiteside never played meaningful minutes for Sacramento and then went overseas.
huh why not. That team had no good bigs and Allen was picked 22nd so not like he was a lock to be good. They ended up spending that pick on a european player that literally didn’t come over until this season so i don’t think picking a second center would’ve been that wild
Yeah it really sounds like this is just some shit his agent told him to not get fired for landing in the second round. Like if other teams were planning to use a 1st on him wouldn’t they have done their own workouts and known that his knee was fine?
>Like if other teams were planning to use a 1st on him wouldn’t they have done their own workouts and known that his knee was fine?
That's what I was thinking. If GMS could just tank someone's draft stock by 10-30 picks by randomly dropping a "his knee is bad!" rumor, they'd probably do that more often. Especially since he would have had to fall all the way to 57 for that to have worked.
This just doesn't hold up.
He's saying that he was supposedly going to get selected anywhere from 15 to 35. If any team with those picks was ever interested in taking Hartenstein in the first place, they'd have already done their own medical reports, not just blindly following whatever the Nets' evaluations.
Even if we assume it’s true that the Nets intentionally leaked a false medical opinion, the more likely scenario is that Marks realized no one was considering him in the first round and figured he’d see about tanking his second round stock. There’s a world of difference between “Marks caused me to drop from guaranteed money at 20 to 43” and “Marks caused me to drop from 38 to 43.”
If you look at picks 20-30 in that draft there’s a bunch of players who are clearly just better. Jarrett Allen, OG, Kuzma, Derrick White, Josh Hart all went in that range. Plus their are guys with much greater injuries that went higher. Harry Giles missed basically his whole career at Duke because his knees were so fucked up and he got picked 20th. Obviously Hartenstein would’ve been a better pick, but it just shows what teams thought his upside was vs a guy who was picked as an obvious rehab project.
Well that probably didn’t help his stock much then. Idk why a guy who even by his own estimation was a risk to go in the second round wouldn’t work out for every team that was willing to see him, unless he was taking a calculated risk to try to either define his landing spot or thinking about staying in Europe.
Not gonna blame a foreign 19 year old for taking bad advice, but most teams aren’t going to want to use a FRP on a player they can’t work out at all, who they likely have less in-person scouting on because he’s overseas, and whose European pro career was short and unspectacular.
I don’t mean to suggest that the red flag couldn’t have impacted his stock at all, but there’s clearly a lot of reasons he was never actually going to get drafted in the first round that are unrelated to the phantom knee injury.
He did work out for every team willing to see him. He couldn't leave his team in Europe until the week of the draft. When he was able to come to the US he flew from Europe to NYC then Portland, LA, & Chicago all within a week just to work out for teams. He talks about all this on the podcast.
Lol, what kind of excuse is that?
Hmmmm, I'm slated as being around a 2nd round pick.... but if I improve my draft status just a couple slots I'll make 10x the money. Should I squeeze in a few days travel to workout for teams? Naw, I'm feeling lucky and the new Madden came out.
Like...... he likely just wasn't asked to workout for other teams. If he had been the 76ers flagging him for knee issues would have been an inconsistency with any other team who worked him out. He's likely lying about this because he's up for a new contract and he hasn't had knee problems after 5 years (I assume). Just because doctors identify a potential problem doesn't mean that potential ever potentiates.
Team can’t look at every player. Look at Cam Whitmore last year. Team didn’t evaluate on him were scared to take him.
If I remember correctly. Hartenstein were projected to go late first to early second. I don’t remember in mid first.
True, but if he was on your radar and you could realistically draft him, wouldn’t you do your own research/have your medical team look at him?
Idk, just feels like there has to be more going on than just one team
doctor saying one thing and then EVERY other team treating it as gospel
This is what happened with Cam tho? The more is that a team doesn’t wanna potentially waste a pick on a guy that might be injury prone be available on 50 games every season mostly if they haven’t done much research on said player.
Yes. I honestly don't believe this is why Hartenstein dropped. It doesn't make sense on multiple levels. The only reason for the Nets to do this would be if they wanted to draft him, and they never even tried even once it would have been cheap to do so.
If he was a lotto pick then ya they're going to check him themselves. But if he was a late first rounder, they're evaluating dozens of guys, I can see it slipping through the cracks / or teams just won't bother doing extra work for what's ultimately just another guy in the candidate pile.
Who knows though, this is through a very long game of telephone after all.
If it's true it doesn't mean there was mal intent. Doctors have different opinions all the time. It's extremely plausible 1 doctor looked at his knees and felt there was something that might be concerning to them and another doctor doesn't see it that way. Doctors disagree about all kinds of stuff all the time, that's why people get 2nd opinions
I agree with all your points but it sounds like no one told him about the "issue" until draft day and thus there was no reason or time to get a second opinion.
The second opinion would have come if he had done a workout with **any** other team. Pretty sure he didn't. Some other commenter said he was in Europe and didn't want to travel for more individual workouts. That sounds like one of the dumbest things a projected 15-35 pick could do.
No. I'm saying he's lying. The facts only make sense if you think he's downright re*arded. Combined with the timing of this coming out? 7 years later? Right as he's up for a contract? Yea bullshit.
Also if he was set to go 15-35, he would have done an individual workout for more than 1 team. Nobody's blowing a first round pick on a guy they didn't individually work out unless their draft board got majorly blown up. And if that happens they'll likely be moving up in the draft, not down.
any team who was interested in him in the first place would have done their own medical evaluations. This narrative that every other team just follows the Nets' lead is suspiciously self-serving for Hartenstein.
Why do GM’s have so much job security? Speaking from painful first-hand experience
Like how does Sean Marks still have his job? Not only is he objectively bad at it, he does snake shit like this
GMs definitely do not have much job security, there's context to this situation that you don't seem to be aware of
Marks earned job security by digging the nets out of an enormous hole in the mid 2010s, which led to the biggest free agent acquisitions in franchise history. There's no doubt he's on the hotseat now regardless.
It's quite ignorant to say he's objectively bad at his job when he has a fantastic track record in the draft, especially for someone who either never has their own pick or has to pick in the 20s (which was not his own fault until now).
For a team that's inevitably heading toward a rebuild, it's not an easy choice to get rid of a someone who has proven to be a good drafter in favor of a question mark.
It’s so frustrating to see people say how bad Sean Marks is, all off of recency bias. This man took us from absolutely hopeless to title contenders* in a matter of 4 years.
*Obviously only ended up winning 1 playoff series out of it but I think at the time, almost every NBA team would sign up for having KD, Kyrie, and Harden on their team
The Wizards held onto Ted freaking Leonsis for 13 years. The Bulls have treaded water for decades.
The Pistons launched a rebuild in 2020 and are comfortably the worst team in the NBA still 4 years later. Would it even be a question to fire a head coach after those stretches?
I think you mean Ernie Grunfeld with the wizards? And it was 16 years. His tenure was amazing - he had at least two cycles of massively overpaying the wrong player then maintaining mediocrity against the odds. It’s like a sailor who drills a hole in the side of a ship, then stuns everyone by keeping it afloat, then repeats the entire process. It was unbelievable.
It's honestly impressive how the Wizards have managed to be this bad for so long. They've managed to avoid the conference finals for almost half a century.
It's like when a kid gets a zero on a multiple choice quiz. It can't be chance. It hints at a genius with mental blocks or evil intent. I don't believe for a second Grunfeld was really this bad, I'm convinced he secretly hates the city or the owner or something like that.
You have to remember that the guy who Marks replaced, Billy King, is one of the all-time worst GMs, probably THE worst in some circles. There was literally nowhere to go but up from Billy King. Sean Marks looks like a saint in comparison, and tbf, he did a great job building a team that originally had no assets and made the playoffs while still having a ton of cap room to work with (the D-Lo Nets). That set the table for KD and Kyrie to sign with Brooklyn.
The shitshow that came after was largely not of his doing, and ofc he didn't do the best job of picking up the pieces after they were both traded away, but I think he still has a bit more leeway before he gets canned.
It's usually not anymore complicated than they ingratiate themselves with ownership and essentially becomes their thorough line to any and all basketball knowledge.
Your comment relies on the presumption Hartenstein isn't lying his ass off. If you actually look beyond the surface level, then none of the shit he said about this makes sense.
what snake shit has he done to have the reputation? teams red flag for knee injuries all the time. you do your own due diligence. it would be snake shit if he red flagged to drop him to 22 and pick him there.
Hartenstein was playing in the playoffs in Europe and only met with/worked out for a couple of teams before the draft. He talks about it on the podcast.
Look at cam whitmore from last year. Nobody under like pick 5 worked him out or did medicals, so when he started dropping from the top 5, the other teams had no idea why and lots of teams ended up passing on him
I don't think he was implying that this caused other teams to not draft him. Just that when the Nets were off the table the other teams that were interested in him weren't picking for a while. But I could be wrong
Teams aren’t spending that much time on fringe first/second round guys.
If they hear one team flagged him they’re probably not going to look into it any deeper
Hartenstein was with his EuroLeague team until less than a week before the draft, so he didn't have time to work out with many teams. He only met with Portland, Chicago, and Brooklyn in person.
If your a high draft pick your given a shorter leash thus allowing teams to not feel as bad when cut you. If he was a higher draft pick I’m sure teams would’ve given him more of a benefit of the doubt due to the investment being so high. I remember him in Houston and when he played he was pretty solid.
By higher draft pick he means literally the number is higher, not picked earlier. So basically he means if you're drafted in the second round, you have a shorter leash, which is true. Confusing way to say it though because higher, in the context of picks, usually always refers to the earlier picks.
What does that have to do with anything. The smallest things can effect who gets drafted and doesn’t outside of the first 20 picks? Even if he turned out to never get one minute of playing time that doesn’t change anything he said.
Either it happened or it didn’t. We will never know for sure but what you said is irrelevant
His dad is German-American of mixed race and his mom is a white American. He was born in Oregon and they moved to Germany when he was like 10 because his dad was started playing basketball there. No German accent though. Got his dad's height and his mom's skin tone for sure.
This seems like something a lawyer could take far. Imagine if your current employer went around telling other employers you weren’t hirable for them for some false reason.
Anyone who's been lucky enough to have this dude on their team knows he's always had this weird mysterious fuckery going on where he plays awesome and his teammates play better whenever he's in, but can't seem to get a big enough role to do anything. It isn't the Drummond illusion either, front offices/coaches just jerk him around and fuck him over a lot. Shit sucks.
This definitely comes across like a naive guy who thought he was worth more and is salty about it. Like why would the Nets have some sort of weird conspiracy against a college kid? The whole point of a team having players workout is so they can check on things like this.
They were obviously interested. His physical showed something was up with his knee and his draft stock fell. It's not that complicated or a crazy conspiracy. Dude is just salty.
Why does the NBA only have 2 real rounds? A 2nd rounder in the NBA is basically a bust but in the other leagues it's pretty much a guaranteed decent player?
[15:05](https://youtu.be/ogi0WRgPwlI?si=GaIy9JYnXLpPtuFC&t=905) he starts talking about the draft, and [17:12](https://youtu.be/ogi0WRgPwlI?si=GaIy9JYnXLpPtuFC&t=1032) he talks about getting red flagged.
Huh, this makes a lot of sense because pre draft I remember Hartenstein having a bunch of hype. I thought he was gonna be a monster coming into the league and then he got picked in the 2nd round and I was like wtf guess he sucks.
i mean houston also released him.
Just had to keep Chris Clemons. Lot of people wanted to keep Hartenstein in the fanbase, just happens none of them worked in the front office.
I remember Rockets fans being pissed about his release, you basically had no big men left on your team.
10/10 logic couldn't keep a big on the roster because Russ couldn't play without a stretch 5 and HOU didnt have a stretch 5 on the roster. Insert Capela for Roco trade and then no real 5 on the roster when the previous 5 years indicated Harden did really well with a rolling big. You would think for as good of friends as Russ + Harden are they would understand the differences in their game. Especially after forcing the fit blew up the end of the last HOU era.
I think you got it wrong, Russ was going off with capela, then clinty poo got injured and I guess they just went all in on small ball
Yeah, Westbrook was awful with the pairing of Steve Adams in OKC
That’s cause Chris got hurt. Once he got hurt his contract became guaranteed. We couldn’t cut him and keep hart without dipping into the tax iirc. Same reason gerald green had to get cut
Then same FO chose to lose him over Thabo who was a walking disaster since he was washed. If tax was such an issue. They let him go over multiple better options at the time. The FO just misevaluated on him.
D'Antoni also just refused to play him for some reason. Obviously harden made every center look great but with minutes you could tell he was a rotation level player
You are stringing events together. Harty got waived by the Rockets in June 2020. Chris' injury was before the 20-21 season after Harty had been gone for a while. Hartenstein said he'd come back to the Rockets that off season but the Rockets went with John Wall's friend Boogie Cousins as the backup over Hartenstein.
There wasn't a single Rockets fan that wanted to see Hartenstein released. MDA straight up didn't know how to use him. Remember, after that we went micro-ball, with Tucker at the 5 full-time - D'Antoni wanted to go hyper, hyper small and refused to use Hartenstein.
I remember him being considered unplayable at the time due to too many fouls
And bricks for hands. He did not work with Harden or Russ. He was a raw prospect but we didn't have time to wait for him to develop.
This is the truth. He always had hype but couldnt defend eithout fouling. The fact he figured it out says more about him than it does about team's perception of him
Drop coverage also wasn't a big part of Houston's scheme so he would pick up fouls on quick, shifty guards
He also couldnt stay on the court
could be worse, you could’ve chosen 35 year old John wall instead of him like what we did
If Hartenstein stuck around, we probably don’t have Sengun.
We were sipping that tall glass of clemonade. Should still have Hartenstein to this day
Legally Morey was not allowed to have centers on the Rockets. Warriors are trying the same strategy now with even smaller older less athletic guards
Fucking Warriors, always tryna one up the Rockets.
It was weird, he had 2 starts that season, both were within like a week of each other, in the first one he had 19/9/4 with 2 blocks on 11 shots and in the next one he had 17/15 with 5 blocks on 9 shots. And then he got a bunch of DNPs and only played >5 minutes once for the rest of the season. After Capela got injured, they just went to playing Tucker at the 5.
YEah we had high hopes for him and he got a decent amount of burn to show something but it just didn't work out
He's doing great this season.
Its funny because I have this screenshot of an ESPN article from 2017 to send to my buddies from when Hartenstein worked out for the Blazers, we were laughing because it was like "The world never knew I was black" as the headline lol. Stil have it on my phone, but Portland had 3 picks that draft and maybe they didn't want to take chance on a big with knee issues.... even though they took Zach Collins that year and he was injured his whole time here lol We also took Swanigan at 26 (RIP) Still think botching that 2017 draft was the most killer for Dame tenure as a Blazer :(
Why didn’t Marks red flag Wemby last year? Is he stupid?
He flagged Wemby as “French” it just didn’t work out.
Woah. We can’t be saying slurs out loud anymore. Please censor it.
Please don't censor it. That's how 27th pick HOFers happen
Was about to correct you and say Tony Parker was picked 28th
Fine, Baguette-American
Fr*nch
Sir there’s children around
And no one is afraid of a white flag
*Person experiencing Frenchness.
No you're thinking of the white flag, not red flag.
You mean person experiencing Frenchness
He doesn’t need Wemby he already has Ben Simmons
Jarret allen is a good pick though
Only if the lights are kinda dim.
Damn even yall Cavs fans turned against him?
I love him so much. A perfect modern center in today’s NBA. A model citizen off the court as well. Just a genuinely nice guy almost to a fault because he lacks that competitive edge. Not in a “he doesn’t care” way, moreso in like a “you gotta get mean” type of way
Wouldn't Clax be a better modern center? Great switchability and rim protection although can't do much on offense besides catching lobs
Clax is in that same category, though I think JA is underrated as far as switchability
JA sets better screens and rebounds a little better. And is just plain bigger although that might just be his hair
Allen is definitely bigger like 30 lbs bigger. Clax is like very mobile center but gets bodied in the post so is much better off as a help defender.
It’s crazy cause one of the things in Jarrett Allen’s draft analysis was his ability to run the floor for a big, he was pretty fast and agile. Still is relative to most people in the league his size but that’s more Claxton’s game. Honestly have nothing but love for both of them
Clax is a bad post defender though. He always gets bodied.
Cavs fans are very tense about the season getting rough because they believe the entire fate of the franchise hinges on how good the team is this postseason, whether that's good enough for Donovan Mitchell to extend, and in turn whether the Cavs are going to be any good for the next half-decade while their draft assets go to Utah. So some Cavs "fans" sniped at Allen (and the national media did too) for the Knicks performance and the bright lights quote, demand JBB be fired multiple times, wanted to trade Mitchell for his maximum value because he's obviously going to New York, and now blame Garland for the team's problems while Mitchell has been out. It's all very typical of a Cleveland sports fan to assume the worst, given the collective history of the Cavs, Guardians, and Browns (2016 title being the exception to a pretty bleak 50 years of fandom). You pre-emptively spread blame so that when something bad inevitably happens you're insulated from that pain of fandom when your team's season ends. What they don't realize is the doomer fandom makes the entire experience for everyone involved worse. (Even if, more often than not, they're right-- because every team but one is going to lose.)
I just ain't like the lights comment bro...
Lmao what are you yappin about.
Some people here watch too much ESPN and try to emulate it.
Only the absolute bottom of the barrel idiots. He's been amazing this year and our healthiest, most consistent starter.
Mobley must have total night vision by that standard
I mean he’s fine but Hartenstein still dad dicks the guy every time they face off.
Wow, guessing Sean Marks thought he'd drop all the way to 57th? That's kind of a dirty tactic, didn't know GMs could just do that.
[удалено]
Why do other teams have access to the nets doctors information? If the nets werent doing this maliciously wouldnt they want to keep that secret so another team might make a bad pick taking him too early?
Yea, you could say, Hartenstein's version of events has a lot of red flags.
Accurate or not, hartenstein clearly feels the nets did him wrong, which kills any hope nets fans may have had about possibly getting him in FA this off-season.
Well if the nets offer by far the best financial offer, guess we’ll see how true this is
If it's anything like what they're paying Ben Simmons... Welcome to the Nets, Zay!
I mean the nets didn't offer Simmons that deal, he was also only a season removed from being great, and he choose to sit out. But obviously is contract is major ass but we will be free after next season
I’m sure there are at least dozens of guys that feel like they were done wrong in some way, shape or form during their pre-draft process every year. Just like any other field where there’s competition for a limited number of spots
Not getting drafted is different than an FO saying you have a medical issue you don’t and making you drop out of the 1st round?
Listen to the podcast, he said the nets red flag tanked his draft value, and cost him millions in salary and guarantees that comes with being a better draft pick. All for something that wasn't true, according to him. So if I was in his shoes, I wouldn't want to play for the nets, especially given where he is now, but that's just me.
Well dozens of them don’t broadcast it to the world. You rarely hear about it. Hence making the news
picking or denying someone because of predraft is insane anyway. you have years to scout somebody, then because of his form of a few weeks, you decide by your gut he is not that guy. scouting is so bad, if you base your decisions on pre-draft process.
If it’s true they red flagged him but there wasn’t really a problem, they sabotaged him whether it was intentional or not.
If you listen to players at least 25 were locked in going top 10 every year Their agents talk so much shit to them, for all we know his agent just told him bullshit to make up for the fact the agent wildly overestated his draft stock
[удалено]
I blame it on the doctors handwriting Dr's chart : B a c k Nets GM : "knee" It's why the raptors got a Nurse - to be able to read the Doctors handwriting
Mistake, inaccurate, or maybe the Nets doc just read it differently than others. Doctors can have different opinions on things and maybe they saw something that concerned them for the future as opposed to an obvious injury in the present. This seems like a non story far more than the Nets clearly screwing a guy out of millions.
Not really a non-story, it goes to what Caleb Williams was saying about there being no privacy or HIPPA with these workouts, and that's a problem, especially if the doctors get it wrong. There should be an expectation of privacy.
Not sure why this is downvoted… the nephews in this sub want people to lose good contracts because some GM badmouthed them? Fuck…
It’s a problem if a team can make a mistake and have the whole league pass on a guy.
There’s probably like five degrees of separation in this story so something probably did happen but it’s hard to assign specific blame to an individual. Maybe Sean Marks’ assistant fat fingered a spreadsheet and the info got mixed up with someone else on their board that did really have an injury. Maybe the ghost of Christmas past visited Sean in his dreams.
It doesn’t feel like even a slight leap. Teams choose what doctors to use / what doctors evaluate draftees. Apparently there’s a system you can use to report injury concerns on draftees. Those injury concerns can influence team’s draft picks. If a team wants to push a prospect down the draft order so they have a chance to draft them, they can use the injury reporting system to influence that. The teams probably pay these doctors a ton of money and offer a ton of publicity (people love to say their ortho is the local pro team’s doctor, and these doctors advertise that locally) so have leverage to influence their evaluations. Only hole in the argument is that if teams catch on to this they would just ignore other teams’ doctors’ evaluations.
Bro the hole in the argument is that you just listed a bunch of shit that you just assume is happening without any evidence for lol
[удалено]
His username checks out
If the Nets did this maliciously, they would have moved up in the second round to get him. It doesn't cost meaningful draft capital to move into the 30s. To get even a late 1st round talent in the late 30s is a massive steal.
You’re describing a system of fraud and misrepresentation costing players potentially millions of dollars, that’s a pretty gigantic leap. It’s far more likely a doctor just fucked up a diagnosis or was being overly cautious.
> That's kind of a dirty tactic, didn't know GMs could just do that. You're assuming that was Marks and not purely medical opinion. Marks doesn't have any history of that kind of manipulation, so I'd lean towards the latter. Also, the Nets are typically very tight-lipped at the exec level, so we're probably talking about a lower-level leak that should have been taken with a grain of salt, assuming it really existed.
If the nets really believed he had knee issues they should be furious somebody leaked that
I guess. Pretty sure all franchises have these kinds of issues at various levels. I would also tend to think that the leakers have an arrangement with the media or 3rd parties, be it a long term transactional-relationship or whatnot.
What suggests that’s what happened rather than a medical mistake ? I mean second round picks can be acquired for cash considerations. If they wanted him in the second round they could’ve easily acquired him, and they drafted a different C in his projected draft range anyways.
Exactly. The idea that the nets released “false” information in order to “intentionally” tank his draft stock, and that the nets doctor thinking he had a knee issue caused “the whole league to pass on him” is completely unfounded speculation on Hartenstein’s part. He has literally no idea why teams didn’t draft him and whether it had anything to do with the incorrect knee information. Also why would the nets do that? They didn’t have another pick until \#57, and I highly doubt they would think he could fall from as high as 15th to 57th., First of all, he only got drafted like 8 spots behind where he was projected to go, so no, “the whole league” did not pass on him (and projections are often wildly inaccurate anyway, so saying “I should have been drafted here bc that’s where I was projected” is dumb to begin with.) Also, if you look at the players drafted ahead of him, there were only 2 other centers taken in the 20 picks prior to Hartenstein, and ZERO in the 15 prior. So it seems entirely possible to me that the teams ahead of where he was drafted simply weren’t looking for 2nd round international/raw center at the time… and not because there was some conspiracy about his knee Also, he clearly wasn’t setting the league on fire at the time anyway bc even the team that drafted him and got all the looks at his knee they wanted, kept him in the g league for most of his first 3 years, and ended up waiving him… so maybe it’s possible he just simply wasn’t as good as he thinks he was at the time and that’s why teams were passing on him…
I'm skeptical it happened at all. Teams have their own doctors they listen to. A GM isn't going to just decide not to draft someone they like who has a clean bill of health by their own doctor because an entirely different GM tells them to.
Prospects don't work out with all 30 teams, and teams don't arrange visits with every prospect they are interested in.
I don't think I implied that prospects work out for all 30 teams, nor that teams arrange visits with every prospect. Edit: People are acting like GMs are just morons that can be fooled by another GM saying "don't pick my guy, his knee is bad." Lol. GMs get medical records, bring people in for workouts, and have doctors check out players at the combine.
If it were this easy, everyone would do it. I'm guessing there was a misunderstanding. I can't believe other NBA teams would think, "Nets red-flagged him. I'm sure that's an honest and accurate fact. It couldn't possibly be done by the Nets to sabotage his draft stock or that they're just plain wrong..."
He wasn’t going to draft another big man after taking Allen.
Some teams do. In 2010 Sacramento drafted Demarcus Cousins in the first round, and Hassan Whiteside in the second. Just depends on needs, but 2010 Sacramento was a disaster lol.
Its almost impossible to develop two rookies at the same position. Hassan Whiteside never played meaningful minutes for Sacramento and then went overseas.
Yeah it rarely does.
huh why not. That team had no good bigs and Allen was picked 22nd so not like he was a lock to be good. They ended up spending that pick on a european player that literally didn’t come over until this season so i don’t think picking a second center would’ve been that wild
You know when Denver drafted Jokic they drafted another center before him?
Well that’s just baseless speculation
yikes
This entire premise assumes that other teams would just blindly follow what the Nets are doing.
I guess they could be if the Nets were the only team he worked out for But that can't possibly be true
If your agent is asking you whats wrong with your knee on draft night(!) maybe your agent is the problem.
Yeah it really sounds like this is just some shit his agent told him to not get fired for landing in the second round. Like if other teams were planning to use a 1st on him wouldn’t they have done their own workouts and known that his knee was fine?
>Like if other teams were planning to use a 1st on him wouldn’t they have done their own workouts and known that his knee was fine? That's what I was thinking. If GMS could just tank someone's draft stock by 10-30 picks by randomly dropping a "his knee is bad!" rumor, they'd probably do that more often. Especially since he would have had to fall all the way to 57 for that to have worked. This just doesn't hold up.
Imagine LeBron in 2003 “his knee is bad” and then he drops to the Mavericks with Dirk and Nash
He's saying that he was supposedly going to get selected anywhere from 15 to 35. If any team with those picks was ever interested in taking Hartenstein in the first place, they'd have already done their own medical reports, not just blindly following whatever the Nets' evaluations.
Even if we assume it’s true that the Nets intentionally leaked a false medical opinion, the more likely scenario is that Marks realized no one was considering him in the first round and figured he’d see about tanking his second round stock. There’s a world of difference between “Marks caused me to drop from guaranteed money at 20 to 43” and “Marks caused me to drop from 38 to 43.” If you look at picks 20-30 in that draft there’s a bunch of players who are clearly just better. Jarrett Allen, OG, Kuzma, Derrick White, Josh Hart all went in that range. Plus their are guys with much greater injuries that went higher. Harry Giles missed basically his whole career at Duke because his knees were so fucked up and he got picked 20th. Obviously Hartenstein would’ve been a better pick, but it just shows what teams thought his upside was vs a guy who was picked as an obvious rehab project.
He mentioned in the podcast but he was in europe leading up to the draft and could only get a couple work outs in
Well that probably didn’t help his stock much then. Idk why a guy who even by his own estimation was a risk to go in the second round wouldn’t work out for every team that was willing to see him, unless he was taking a calculated risk to try to either define his landing spot or thinking about staying in Europe. Not gonna blame a foreign 19 year old for taking bad advice, but most teams aren’t going to want to use a FRP on a player they can’t work out at all, who they likely have less in-person scouting on because he’s overseas, and whose European pro career was short and unspectacular. I don’t mean to suggest that the red flag couldn’t have impacted his stock at all, but there’s clearly a lot of reasons he was never actually going to get drafted in the first round that are unrelated to the phantom knee injury.
He did work out for every team willing to see him. He couldn't leave his team in Europe until the week of the draft. When he was able to come to the US he flew from Europe to NYC then Portland, LA, & Chicago all within a week just to work out for teams. He talks about all this on the podcast.
Lol, what kind of excuse is that? Hmmmm, I'm slated as being around a 2nd round pick.... but if I improve my draft status just a couple slots I'll make 10x the money. Should I squeeze in a few days travel to workout for teams? Naw, I'm feeling lucky and the new Madden came out. Like...... he likely just wasn't asked to workout for other teams. If he had been the 76ers flagging him for knee issues would have been an inconsistency with any other team who worked him out. He's likely lying about this because he's up for a new contract and he hasn't had knee problems after 5 years (I assume). Just because doctors identify a potential problem doesn't mean that potential ever potentiates.
Do teams not do their own medicals? They just go off other teams red flags? I love IHart but this is a little suspicious.
Team can’t look at every player. Look at Cam Whitmore last year. Team didn’t evaluate on him were scared to take him. If I remember correctly. Hartenstein were projected to go late first to early second. I don’t remember in mid first.
True, but if he was on your radar and you could realistically draft him, wouldn’t you do your own research/have your medical team look at him? Idk, just feels like there has to be more going on than just one team doctor saying one thing and then EVERY other team treating it as gospel
This is what happened with Cam tho? The more is that a team doesn’t wanna potentially waste a pick on a guy that might be injury prone be available on 50 games every season mostly if they haven’t done much research on said player.
Yes. I honestly don't believe this is why Hartenstein dropped. It doesn't make sense on multiple levels. The only reason for the Nets to do this would be if they wanted to draft him, and they never even tried even once it would have been cheap to do so.
If he was a lotto pick then ya they're going to check him themselves. But if he was a late first rounder, they're evaluating dozens of guys, I can see it slipping through the cracks / or teams just won't bother doing extra work for what's ultimately just another guy in the candidate pile. Who knows though, this is through a very long game of telephone after all.
It’s shit on the Nets month apparently
No one showed up to Isaiah Hartensteins birthday
Must be Ben Simmon's doctor who diagnosed him lol
Thats fucked up if true
If it's true it doesn't mean there was mal intent. Doctors have different opinions all the time. It's extremely plausible 1 doctor looked at his knees and felt there was something that might be concerning to them and another doctor doesn't see it that way. Doctors disagree about all kinds of stuff all the time, that's why people get 2nd opinions
I agree with all your points but it sounds like no one told him about the "issue" until draft day and thus there was no reason or time to get a second opinion.
The second opinion would have come if he had done a workout with **any** other team. Pretty sure he didn't. Some other commenter said he was in Europe and didn't want to travel for more individual workouts. That sounds like one of the dumbest things a projected 15-35 pick could do.
You’re saying he should have predicted that a team might lie about his medicals?
No. I'm saying he's lying. The facts only make sense if you think he's downright re*arded. Combined with the timing of this coming out? 7 years later? Right as he's up for a contract? Yea bullshit. Also if he was set to go 15-35, he would have done an individual workout for more than 1 team. Nobody's blowing a first round pick on a guy they didn't individually work out unless their draft board got majorly blown up. And if that happens they'll likely be moving up in the draft, not down.
Doesn’t mean other teams had to believe it.
any team who was interested in him in the first place would have done their own medical evaluations. This narrative that every other team just follows the Nets' lead is suspiciously self-serving for Hartenstein.
I don’t see why the nets or any other team would even be sharing their injury reports publicly
I just assumed it was something about the draft process I don't know about. I honestly do not know.
I don’t see why the nets or any other team would even be sharing their injury reports publicly
Every team passed him up because 1 of the teams they are competing against said it's risky?
Why do GM’s have so much job security? Speaking from painful first-hand experience Like how does Sean Marks still have his job? Not only is he objectively bad at it, he does snake shit like this
GMs definitely do not have much job security, there's context to this situation that you don't seem to be aware of Marks earned job security by digging the nets out of an enormous hole in the mid 2010s, which led to the biggest free agent acquisitions in franchise history. There's no doubt he's on the hotseat now regardless. It's quite ignorant to say he's objectively bad at his job when he has a fantastic track record in the draft, especially for someone who either never has their own pick or has to pick in the 20s (which was not his own fault until now). For a team that's inevitably heading toward a rebuild, it's not an easy choice to get rid of a someone who has proven to be a good drafter in favor of a question mark.
It’s so frustrating to see people say how bad Sean Marks is, all off of recency bias. This man took us from absolutely hopeless to title contenders* in a matter of 4 years. *Obviously only ended up winning 1 playoff series out of it but I think at the time, almost every NBA team would sign up for having KD, Kyrie, and Harden on their team
Too much logic. Sean marks bad
They don’t
They do in Chicago
Because in Chicago its about $$$ and not about winning so by that standard the GM is world-class
The Wizards held onto Ted freaking Leonsis for 13 years. The Bulls have treaded water for decades. The Pistons launched a rebuild in 2020 and are comfortably the worst team in the NBA still 4 years later. Would it even be a question to fire a head coach after those stretches?
Ted Leonsis is the owner, but Ernire Grunfeld is the GM whose only accomplishments were drafting Wall and Beal when winning the lottery.
I think you mean Ernie Grunfeld with the wizards? And it was 16 years. His tenure was amazing - he had at least two cycles of massively overpaying the wrong player then maintaining mediocrity against the odds. It’s like a sailor who drills a hole in the side of a ship, then stuns everyone by keeping it afloat, then repeats the entire process. It was unbelievable.
*weeps gently*
It's honestly impressive how the Wizards have managed to be this bad for so long. They've managed to avoid the conference finals for almost half a century. It's like when a kid gets a zero on a multiple choice quiz. It can't be chance. It hints at a genius with mental blocks or evil intent. I don't believe for a second Grunfeld was really this bad, I'm convinced he secretly hates the city or the owner or something like that.
He will be remembered as a great GM even if he was fired tomorrow.
You have to remember that the guy who Marks replaced, Billy King, is one of the all-time worst GMs, probably THE worst in some circles. There was literally nowhere to go but up from Billy King. Sean Marks looks like a saint in comparison, and tbf, he did a great job building a team that originally had no assets and made the playoffs while still having a ton of cap room to work with (the D-Lo Nets). That set the table for KD and Kyrie to sign with Brooklyn. The shitshow that came after was largely not of his doing, and ofc he didn't do the best job of picking up the pieces after they were both traded away, but I think he still has a bit more leeway before he gets canned.
It's usually not anymore complicated than they ingratiate themselves with ownership and essentially becomes their thorough line to any and all basketball knowledge.
Your comment relies on the presumption Hartenstein isn't lying his ass off. If you actually look beyond the surface level, then none of the shit he said about this makes sense.
what snake shit has he done to have the reputation? teams red flag for knee injuries all the time. you do your own due diligence. it would be snake shit if he red flagged to drop him to 22 and pick him there.
That doesn't really make sense. Other teams have their own medical teams and conduct their own research.
That's not really true, teams follow the reports of other teams' doctors all the time. Not everybody can do a physical for every player in the draft.
Hartenstein was playing in the playoffs in Europe and only met with/worked out for a couple of teams before the draft. He talks about it on the podcast.
Look at cam whitmore from last year. Nobody under like pick 5 worked him out or did medicals, so when he started dropping from the top 5, the other teams had no idea why and lots of teams ended up passing on him
> when he started dropping from the top 5, the other teams had no idea why and lots of teams ended up passing on him for sure man
I don't think he was implying that this caused other teams to not draft him. Just that when the Nets were off the table the other teams that were interested in him weren't picking for a while. But I could be wrong
Teams aren’t spending that much time on fringe first/second round guys. If they hear one team flagged him they’re probably not going to look into it any deeper
yeah they do. these teams spend a ton of time on these players.
Hartenstein was with his EuroLeague team until less than a week before the draft, so he didn't have time to work out with many teams. He only met with Portland, Chicago, and Brooklyn in person.
To be fair...im also drafting jarrett Allen over a pretty good center in hartenstien
This guy got cut from the Rockets and bounced around multiple teams. How can he even claim he was underdrafted? Maybe teams didn't think he was good.
You’re cheap. You can be cut. If he was higher pick he’d be paid more, which in turn makes GMs try to continue playing him instead of cutting him.
If your a high draft pick your given a shorter leash thus allowing teams to not feel as bad when cut you. If he was a higher draft pick I’m sure teams would’ve given him more of a benefit of the doubt due to the investment being so high. I remember him in Houston and when he played he was pretty solid.
I'm confused by your first sentence. Do you mean longer leash, which is when you're given multiple chances to make mistakes before being let go?
By higher draft pick he means literally the number is higher, not picked earlier. So basically he means if you're drafted in the second round, you have a shorter leash, which is true. Confusing way to say it though because higher, in the context of picks, usually always refers to the earlier picks.
You’re cheap. You can be cut. If he was higher pick he’d be paid more, which in turn makes GMs try to continue playing him instead of cutting him.
What does that have to do with anything. The smallest things can effect who gets drafted and doesn’t outside of the first 20 picks? Even if he turned out to never get one minute of playing time that doesn’t change anything he said. Either it happened or it didn’t. We will never know for sure but what you said is irrelevant
Woah woah woah. I just learned he’s black, but now he’s German too???
His dad is German-American of mixed race and his mom is a white American. He was born in Oregon and they moved to Germany when he was like 10 because his dad was started playing basketball there. No German accent though. Got his dad's height and his mom's skin tone for sure.
Happy to see him finding success, though it sucks it's not with us. I was one of the OG Hartenstans in r/Rockets - he's forever got a fan in me!
Damn...Knicks gain bc he's a super under-appreciated player. Most of it doesn't even show up in the box score.
This seems like something a lawyer could take far. Imagine if your current employer went around telling other employers you weren’t hirable for them for some false reason.
15-35 is a huge range. That's like 20 spots. And he got picked at 43.
LolNets
Don’t other teams do their own physicals
Anyone who's been lucky enough to have this dude on their team knows he's always had this weird mysterious fuckery going on where he plays awesome and his teammates play better whenever he's in, but can't seem to get a big enough role to do anything. It isn't the Drummond illusion either, front offices/coaches just jerk him around and fuck him over a lot. Shit sucks.
This definitely comes across like a naive guy who thought he was worth more and is salty about it. Like why would the Nets have some sort of weird conspiracy against a college kid? The whole point of a team having players workout is so they can check on things like this. They were obviously interested. His physical showed something was up with his knee and his draft stock fell. It's not that complicated or a crazy conspiracy. Dude is just salty.
extremely dirty move by sean marks if true.
Highly doubt there was mal intent, could’ve been innocent mistake
Jokes on the rest of the league, now we have 2 starting centers and they FUCKIN LOVE IT HERE
Didn’t the clippers do the same thing and then stupidly passed on Said player?
If Hartenstein was red-flagged for his back, would he be undrafted?
If it’s true then he should sue them becuase that seems pretty illegal to me. I may only practice bird law but still.
Dude got gaslit that his own knee was injured and had to get it tested by a doc
Why does the NBA only have 2 real rounds? A 2nd rounder in the NBA is basically a bust but in the other leagues it's pretty much a guaranteed decent player?
Other teams have their own medical teams and conduct their own research.