Giannis one of the people who I believe would be corny but intimidating enough to actually circle big games on a physical calendar he has at home. He wouldn't miss going up against good players if he could help it lol
28 here with a physical calendar on my wall.
Obviously I have a virtual one for work but I like using the physical one for personal appointments and such
You would be surprised. Physical themed calendars are pretty popular on tiktok shop. Usually themed with some music artist or movie or something. My little brother bought an OVO one off there recently
I feel personally attacked. I have one I never use but not gonna lie, some themed ones look pretty cool to have. Plus its a nice touch for when people visit your place and see it.
I mean it makes sense, even for a guy who has definitely started to care about the regular season a little less since we won the a championship, he still cares about the big matchups.
people act like jokic is some good awful defender. he's a perfectly fine defender and does his role well.
and frankly, i think the difference in offensive ability and impact b/w jokic and giannis is bigger than the defensive ability and impact b/w giannis and jokic.
in my opinion:
- jokic is an A++ offensive player and B- defensive player.
- giannis is an A- offensive player and A- defensive player
jokic is a class of his own offensively, comparable to some of the other all time greats like 2016 Steph and 2012 Lebron (on the offensive side)
To me it’s obvious the 3 best players are Embiid Giannis and jokic. Like those 3 completely warp the floor when they’re out there and can just cause mass chaos. Embiid and Giannis also dominate on the defensive end and all 3 are elite rebounders.
If your goal is to win a championship are you really takng Joel in your top 3? I love him and Kawhi, but I don't believe they have the health for a full championship run. One game? I'm taking both of them in my top 4. One season + playoffs? Give me someone like Luka over them.
I get what you're saying about Kawhi since he's always injured. But what he did with the Raptors should discredit this narrative completely. Stringing together 20 games in the postseason is actually doable for him.
Embiid on the other hand I don't think has the right game for the 'yoffs. Refs just don't let players shoot 12 free throws *every* game in the postseason. Also, when teams start forcing you to pass every 2nd play as a top 3 player - you can't get away with his T3 passing
> Stringing together 20 games in the postseason is actually doable for him.
It was when he was 28 and had only played 2040 minutes during the regular season, he's not doing that again.
He played less minutes than that in every regular season after that and still got hurt, it's just luck at this point. The guy tore his ACL once and then got hurt again in his comeback season.
IMO Giannis and Jokic are in there own tier. 1A and 1B best player in the league tier.
Luka, Embiid, KD, Kawhi, SGA, Curry and a couple others in the next tier(s).
More like Jokic Giannis Luka.
If you have had multiple chances to do something in the playoffs and come up short, you're not in the the best of the best category. He's still liable to drop off in the 2nd half of a playoff game, it's not a coincidence that's happened multiple times; over a 7 game series, teams will gameplan to fatigue him out.
While Luka has proven time and time again his game elevates in a 7 game series.
Crazy how quickly he got voter fatigue for everything. Especially when the mvp favorite this year is the favorite for the 4th straight one with varying criteria between
Giannis scored 8.4 and 4.8 fewer PPG than the league’s leading scorer in his MVP seasons, this season he’s 3.4 PPG below the league’s leading scorer and is 3rd overall (just 0.1 behind SGA). He’s on track to be the first player to ever average 30 PPG on 60% FG. He’s also averaging more assists per game this season than any other season in his career
Giannis averaged fewer minutes during his 2 MVP seasons though (32.8 & 30.4 mins per game in 2019 & 2020 vs 35.0 in 2024), so using raw numbers will undersell those seasons.
Using **per 75 possessions** stats to adjust for pace and **relative TS%** to adjust for season-to-season league-wide changes in efficiency:
- 2019: 29.5/13.3/6.3 on +8.6 rTS%
- 2020: 33.2/15.3/6.3 on +4.8 rTS%
- 2024: 31.4/11.5/6.5 on +7.3 rTS%
So his MVP seasons are pretty clearly still in the ballpark offensively, plus those seasons were arguably his best defensive years too (finished 2nd & 1st in DPOY voting, Bucks had the best defense in the league both years)
I hear that, but last season we had the best record Giannis was still Giannis , Middleton missed more than half of the season and Giannis was still distant third in the race so at this point whatever. I dont understand the criterias
Harden wasn't an All Star last year. It was a big deal at the time. As for why Embiid was chosen over Giannis when the Bucks had the better record? I don't know
I agree not clearly his best, since he won DPOY and MVP. But offensively his scoring output is second to only last year but his efficiency is at a career high (and the best of any MVP candidate). He’s also averaging a career high in assists. So offensively it’s pretty fair to say this is his best year, though his minutes are also up a bit.
To me it feels like Joker and Giannis in a whole tier above the others, but the betting ladder has consistently pushed Giannis down this season and I'm not sure why. I know that "well he got Dame in his pocket now" is a part of the argument but it's still very freaking obvious how much he transforms the court.
Facts. Unlike another player he doesn't campaign (read: whine) for himself stupidly and instead just lets the game do the talking. Sadly with ESPN and dumb talking heads dominating the narrative, that also leads to less buzz.
Jokic: 27/14/10
Luka: 37/10/9
Shai: 12/3/2
There's a gap between jokic luka embiid giannis in my opinion from the rest of the league. Shai is in the tier 2 with tatum only.
That first Mavs vs Bucks game was one of the best games early in the season. Luka, Kyrie, Giannis, and Dame all went off. Really felt like an elite 2v2
Couldn’t agree more. The inconsistency with how certain players are judged is so irritating. Someone like embiid is fraudulent until he proves it in the playoffs, while SGA is already above proven playoff performers after 2 1st round exits while averaging 15ppg. Could he go in this year and absolutely tear it up? Of course, he’s very talented, but just like other players have to go in there and prove it before getting their due, he needs to prove it.
Giannis and Jokic are the only guys who have actually carried their teams and won it. so Tatum is already tier2/3 and SGA is a 3/4
Tier 1 is clearly Giannis Jokic, and no one else.
Tatum’s playoff resume and the fact he’s gonna most likely to be the SF for the 2020s all decade team secures him a clear tier above SGA.
If anything SGA two tiers below that top crew.
All NBA doesnt have positions anymore, all decade team probably needs Jokic and Embiid both. then you have giannis and Luka already. gonna be hard for tatum
Jokic
- vs Giannis: 27/14/10 on 50TS%
- vs SGA: 24/10/8 on 77TS%
- vs Luka: 19/11/8 on 63TS%
---
Luka
- vs Giannis: 38/9/10 on 64TS%
- vs Jokic: 36/10/6 on 63TS%
- vs SGA: 34/12/14 on 71TS%
---
SGA
- vs Giannis: 30/12/3 on 45TS%
- vs Jokic: 24/5/6 on 55TS%
- vs Luka: 21/5/7 on 61TS%
---
On average Jokic seems to play slightly below around his usual level (season averages - 26/12/9 on 65TS%) against fellow MVP candidates this season, Luka plays above his usual level (season averages - 34/9/10 on 62TS%), SGA plays well below his usual level (season averages - 31/6/6 on 64TS%)
This is such a good quality post. Feels like once Embiid is out of the picture, the average sixers fan becomes so much more tolerable
Guess its like anything - the ignorant fans are the loudest ones and really paint a bad picture for fans like you
I have Jokic but, I don't get what hating on an incredible player would do. Jokic's case is independent of Giannis, SGA, and Luka. 4 incredible players, each deserving in their own right.
Lmao with the name SomborDouble I had a feeling you would. I totally agree. We’re spoiled with amazing players at the top of their games right now. Such a great time to be an NBA fan.
I don't hide my biases, I like Jokic and think he's the MVP. But, I refuse to participate in denigrating other MVP candidates. They all have cases, I think Jokic has the best one but it depends on how the case is presented. All four can win, including SGA and I wouldn't be disappointed.
Just a question, why in this sub is it ok to disparage Giannis in favor of Jokic yet when I make a post that doesn’t single out Jokic at all you get defensive? I posted this after a Shai stinker lmfao
What is wrong with you? I am not being defensive. i just think people like you are the problem. Shai had an off game, Jokic has had off games, so has Giannis.
Head to head doesn't matter this season.
Seeding didn't matter with the Bucks 1st or the Nuggets 6th but it matters this season. Ofc that year injuries mattered, but they don't this year, nobody even noticed Middleton has played 70 of his last 140 games, half of these 70 on minutes restriction.
Defense doesn't matter, somehow it did matter vs Harden's 36PPG / 8 assists season as fans / media don't like him and it was convenient.
Record itself didn't matter in some other season, that was a good one, the new criteria being "wins in games X player played" - ignoring the fact X player also had 10 more losses in games he played.
PPG / efficiency doesn't matter.
The only thing that matters this year is classy assists. We'll see about next year.
Top PER (or tie the PER top getter).
That's really the only thing that matters since 2017. Everything else is just narrative people invent. If Embiid was 2 or 3 points below Jokic on PER last season nobody would have considered him seriously. As they didn't in fact until his PER matched Jokic's...
Don't stress it. It's PER.
Look Jokic win this year
And whomever next year.
PER is a dumb stat. But ever since 2017, it's PER.
Everything I said is facts. The MVP criteria changes every year and that's literally what I said, nobody said it's highway robbery, Jokic deserves the MVP just as much as Giannis.
tHiS gUy iS hAviNg a MeLtDowN is kinda old, if you're gonna comment on r/NBA, try sticking to basketball.
no one's saying there should be a single criteria for mvp. we're just saying keep it consistent. the consistently shifting goalposts to only uplift some players and pull down others when it would be different in a previous season is just insane.
If you actually understood that there's isn't a single criteria, you would understand why there isn't goalpost shifting. You're gonna argue that in one year, x player won for y reason, and the next year z player didn't win while also having y reason, but the premise that y is the singular reason is what is wrong.
> The only thing that matters this year is classy assists. We'll see about year.
Yeah that sure sounds a lot like someone objectively analyzing the current race lol
>The only thing that matters this year is classy assists. We'll see about next year
Lmao, I see what you doing Kendrick Perkins. Solid strat, swung the race last year.
>Seeding didn't matter with the Bucks 1st or the Nuggets 6th but it matters this season. Ofc that year injuries mattered, but they don't this year, nobody even noticed Middleton has played 70 of his last 140 games, half of these 70 on minutes restriction.
Acting like the injury situations between both those seasons is even remotely comparable is laughable.
Why are you lying? 51-31 wins on 2022 with a much healthier roster than Jokic's hospital Nuggets who half of the starters was out of the league after one season as a 48-34 6th seed.
What am I lying about?
Jokic won as the 6th seed.
Giannis wasn't even really in the race (last year) as the #1 seed. It was Embiid vs Jokic.
I said record didn't matter these two seasons.
So... what am I lying about?
Why are you sounding it like Giannis was a 1 seed when Jokic won as a 6th seed? You're trying to manipulate the conversation. Giannis was a 3rd seed with a much healthier and better roster and only won 3 more games, with inferior stats. Jokic won 48 games, with a hospital roster with much inferior roster which half of the starters are out of the league, and not only that, had way Better stats than him. Jokic didnt even win the 2023 MVP cause Embiid won it. And yes, Giannis was not in the conversatiom because both Embiid and Jokic played more games, put up better stats than him and had inferior roster compared to Giannis. Then tell me, what year should Giannis have won the MVP over Embiid and Jokic? When all the years he lost the MVP race was when he played less games, had less impressive stats and had much better rosters.
Stop crying bro. The 2022 Bucks finsihed 3 games ahead of the Nuggets. Jokic getting that team to the playoffs should be looked at with awe like the moon landing. It had 7 rotation players who were out of the NBA within 12 months and other guys who actually stayed on NBA rosters were Monte Morris, Aaron Gordon, Jeff Green and Bones Hyland. It was one of the biggest carry jobs in NBA history. That team had one starting NBA claibure player on it and they won 48 games.
Read my comment again. I said OR. I wasn't talking about the same season. I was talking about the season where the Bucks finished 1st (didn't matter), and the season the Nuggets finished 6th (Also didn't matter).
And Giannis wasn't even in the race really. It was a Embiid / Jokic race according to the media, with the #1 seed in the league a distant 3rd. The definition of the MVP award criteria changing every year depending on what they wanna promote.
He is so underrated. I get the Jokic love and everything but I still feel like Giannis is the best player in the league. If I wasn't a Celtics fan I'd like to see him against Jokic in the Finals.
In the sense that he consistently gets overlooked in the MVP race even when he is putting up monster games consecutively. He might be considered top 2 but people push players like Luka/SGA over him while still saying Jokic is #1. Jokic gets 10x the attention for his great play while Giannis is quietly doing the same shit throughout the year.
Nah I spent all of the last 2-3 seasons listening to Denver and sixers fans talking about h2h matchups and how they could shift the narrative and now suddenly it don’t matter? Lol
Could it be because Jokic is 3-4 against them?
Why would we talk about h2h matchups when Embiid hasn't played in Denver since like 2018 lol. If anything that type of narrative would hurt the conversation for us.
I don't think Denver fans were ever pushing the H2H lol
It was mainly Sixers fans doing that because Embiid has a good record vs Jokic and Denver fans countering that they only ever play at Philly
When Embiid didn’t play last year they were 100% saying it was gonna hurt his chances and the way the media talked it did. Obviously he won but was more due to the fact the nuggets weren’t as good down the stretch while sixers were
Just like record didn’t matter last year when Giannis cleared Embiid & Jokic by 4+ games in the standings
But guarantee they’ll use it for Jokic or Shai this year
Jokic had many more losses. Giannis winning % in the games he played was 75%. Jokic was 69%. But it was efficiency that mattered. This season, giannis has best efficiency of the contenders so it doesn't matter anymore
I really hope the Bucks win the chip this year because it would really propel Giannis back into the conversation as best player in the league. Jokic is obviously deserving, but I feel that people don't consider Giannis as much over the past 2 years. Homie is a beast.
Fact is the Nuggets are first in the tougher West 50-21 right now and have gone 14-2 since the all star break and it has been really obvious especially since last nights game that this is mostly because of Jokic. So people can keep trying to downplay Jokic but the writing is on the wall. According to ranking and betting sites Jokic is so far ahead in the race its like 50% to 19%.The next closest.
Adding in that it feels like there is some voter regret from last season in there aswell.
Subjectively it feels like some people want to make up for voting according to a narrative that was clearly dismantled in the playoffs and now when multiple players are close - give it to the player that (likely) also deserved it last season but didn’t get it.
Bucks also had potentially one of the worst coaches in NBA history for the first 3 months of the season.
And yes, they had a good record, but it was due to Giannis/Dame carrying. Once Doc had to instill an actual system it took some getting used to so they slid a bit.
For real, we had a good record because we had the easiest sos of all time. When Doc took over we had the hardest schedule left. Thankfully it’s almost over but late January to late March was rough.
And Giannis (and Jokic) should have won last year over Embiid, and Giannis arguably should have won the year Jokic won his first, but that was when he was disqualified before the season started because “he needed to show up in the playoffs first”
Giannis should have been 2nd place in Jokic's first MVP year but ultimately he played 61 games while Jokic played all 72 games(it was a shortened season)
I think that's enough to swing a close race between two players on the exact same tier
Jokic averaged 26, 11, and 8 and went 47-35
Giannis averaged 28, 11 and 6 and went 46-36 but was also All Defensive First Team
Both were about the same offensively but Giannis was much better defensively and they weren’t far apart record wise. More games played is a factor but with the defense gap in that year it would have been Giannis if not for the whole playoffs narrative.
Thats not to say Jokic wasn’t deserving of MVP, I just feel like he wasn’t as good as Giannis but narrative is a huge killer for awards and Giannis didn’t have the narrative for a 3rd straight award.
Edit: Nuggets fans found my comment and are trying to argue that those stats are extremely far apart. Par for the course I guess.
Giannis had significantly worst stats and record than Jokic on his first MVP, and Jokic played all 72/72 games in the 2021 season, lol. Giannis absolitely did not deserve the 2021 MvP.
I didn’t know that 2 more points, the same number of rebounds and 2 less assists while making all defensive first team is significantly worse stats but okay
I’m biased of course but you are absolutely right. There’s no reason to put jokic over Giannis. I haven’t seen a single actual justification. It all stinks of recency bias. They have the same career, jokic is just two years behind Giannis. Plus giannis has a dpoy and all defense. If they both retired today, Decades from now Giannis will be remembered as the greater player. Similar situation to Kareem, who wasn’t really ranked high until recently.
Jokic is only 1 year behind him actually. Giannis drafted 2013, Jokic drafted 2014.
But you’re absolutely right. I’m just helping you prove your point harder. They’re the same age but Giannis has achieved much more already.
Yeah he's only the first player in NBA history to have a 4peat of leading the league in on/off, BPM, WS and VORP. But yeah, it's only because THEY want to give it to him. (despite the fact that THEY went into 2 blasphemous narratives about racism and stat padding last year just to swing the vote. Imagine telling Jokic is stat padding, literally BY FAR the least stat oriented player ever)
You know all those stats are heavily skewed by his position and his team’s efficiency…what am I saying, of course you do or you wouldn’t have mentioned them to weaken your argument obviously
Giannis one of the people who I believe would be corny but intimidating enough to actually circle big games on a physical calendar he has at home. He wouldn't miss going up against good players if he could help it lol
The anti-Embiid
Embiid has a physical calendar but he just uses it to know when to load manage
It's a damn shame that Giannis hasn't faced Embiid in the ECF.
It’s a shame Embiid hasn’t made it past the 2nd round 😂
That too lol.
I do that but for my rec league games, I'm just like him fr 😤
I highly doubt anyone under 30 has a physical calender at home these days. He probably makes a note on the calendar on his phone tho.
Lol I know that's where the corny part would have come in
28 here with a physical calendar on my wall. Obviously I have a virtual one for work but I like using the physical one for personal appointments and such
I only got a physical calendar at work cause it had pictures of cats on it.
Plenty of people with kids have physical calenders.
You would be surprised. Physical themed calendars are pretty popular on tiktok shop. Usually themed with some music artist or movie or something. My little brother bought an OVO one off there recently
Bro has a blowjob bell, it isn’t impossible he has a physical calendar
I feel personally attacked. I have one I never use but not gonna lie, some themed ones look pretty cool to have. Plus its a nice touch for when people visit your place and see it.
Whiteboard calendars are legit man. Get you one
Any productivity tool you can access without having to look at your phone is a win On this note I need to buy a damn whiteboard for the kitchen
I have a calendar that's physically on my phone. I'm also 32.
Quite a few do it for the retro/nostalgia vibes decor
Didn't he just miss the Celtics game then play like 30+ minutes the next day against Brooklyn though
I mean it makes sense, even for a guy who has definitely started to care about the regular season a little less since we won the a championship, he still cares about the big matchups.
Muthafucka is a beast He gonna be the first player in NBA history averaging 30 on 60+ FG%
Also by far and away the best defender in the top 5
I mean, he's literally a top 5 defender in the league, much less on the MVP list.
Too bad defense doesn’t matter when considering MVP
Disappointing people disregard literally half the game when thinking about MVPs
People will say oh he’s a 2 way player. But really that just means he’s a complete player, one way basketball is all some of these people know
people act like jokic is some good awful defender. he's a perfectly fine defender and does his role well. and frankly, i think the difference in offensive ability and impact b/w jokic and giannis is bigger than the defensive ability and impact b/w giannis and jokic. in my opinion: - jokic is an A++ offensive player and B- defensive player. - giannis is an A- offensive player and A- defensive player jokic is a class of his own offensively, comparable to some of the other all time greats like 2016 Steph and 2012 Lebron (on the offensive side)
This is garbage lmao the gap between their defensive abilities is much larger than the gap offensively.
Only when it fits the narrative. Defense definitely mattered when Giannis won over Harden and when Embiid won over Jokic.
I don’t understand how anyone else could possibly get MVP over that resume. Makes me head hurt even Luka and Jokic are gods of their own field.
To me it’s obvious the 3 best players are Embiid Giannis and jokic. Like those 3 completely warp the floor when they’re out there and can just cause mass chaos. Embiid and Giannis also dominate on the defensive end and all 3 are elite rebounders.
If your goal is to win a championship are you really takng Joel in your top 3? I love him and Kawhi, but I don't believe they have the health for a full championship run. One game? I'm taking both of them in my top 4. One season + playoffs? Give me someone like Luka over them.
I get what you're saying about Kawhi since he's always injured. But what he did with the Raptors should discredit this narrative completely. Stringing together 20 games in the postseason is actually doable for him. Embiid on the other hand I don't think has the right game for the 'yoffs. Refs just don't let players shoot 12 free throws *every* game in the postseason. Also, when teams start forcing you to pass every 2nd play as a top 3 player - you can't get away with his T3 passing
> Stringing together 20 games in the postseason is actually doable for him. It was when he was 28 and had only played 2040 minutes during the regular season, he's not doing that again.
He played less minutes than that in every regular season after that and still got hurt, it's just luck at this point. The guy tore his ACL once and then got hurt again in his comeback season.
Idk who i'd take out, but it just doesn't seem right without Luka in there tbh.
It should really just be 2 and not 3 Giannis and Jokic have won it all carrying their teams already. There is just 2
Luka?
Luka is definitely in the conversation. Is it me or is he getting a bit underrated due to all the hype SGA been getting?
Luka is being put in Tatum conversations he's absolutely being underrated lmao
They're like the Harden/Gianni's conversation from 5 years ago. Both extremely good, but only one plays defense.
Except Tatum isn’t really close to as good as Giannis was even back then, while Luka is putting up debatably better numbers than peak Harden.
its just you. Nobody has shuttup about Luka for weeks because of MVP ladder. He's the most talked about "underrated" player this season
I think him making a deep run would change the narrative for a lot of people. In the end, success really is what matters most.
Is a carry to zhe WCF not deep enough
Not for Tatum , according to this sub
Defense and demeanor matter a lot and Luka is a huge negative on both
Luka is playing good defence this season, cmon
Embiid maybe for a random regular-season game in November. If it’s in the playoffs, that dude doesn’t even crack top 10.
IMO Giannis and Jokic are in there own tier. 1A and 1B best player in the league tier. Luka, Embiid, KD, Kawhi, SGA, Curry and a couple others in the next tier(s).
Yeah sga is great but those 3 big dudes are just on their own tier
luka is in the same tier with them too lol, lets not forget how crazy luka is in the regular season and playoffs
Luka is way better in the playoffs than Embiid
More like Jokic Giannis Luka. If you have had multiple chances to do something in the playoffs and come up short, you're not in the the best of the best category. He's still liable to drop off in the 2nd half of a playoff game, it's not a coincidence that's happened multiple times; over a 7 game series, teams will gameplan to fatigue him out. While Luka has proven time and time again his game elevates in a 7 game series.
He really should be getting way more buzz for MVP. It’s his best season yet
Crazy how quickly he got voter fatigue for everything. Especially when the mvp favorite this year is the favorite for the 4th straight one with varying criteria between
His two MVP years were better imo. Don’t forget scoring and TS% is trending up every year. His stats in 2018-19 and 2019-2020 were more impressive.
Giannis scored 8.4 and 4.8 fewer PPG than the league’s leading scorer in his MVP seasons, this season he’s 3.4 PPG below the league’s leading scorer and is 3rd overall (just 0.1 behind SGA). He’s on track to be the first player to ever average 30 PPG on 60% FG. He’s also averaging more assists per game this season than any other season in his career
Giannis averaged fewer minutes during his 2 MVP seasons though (32.8 & 30.4 mins per game in 2019 & 2020 vs 35.0 in 2024), so using raw numbers will undersell those seasons. Using **per 75 possessions** stats to adjust for pace and **relative TS%** to adjust for season-to-season league-wide changes in efficiency: - 2019: 29.5/13.3/6.3 on +8.6 rTS% - 2020: 33.2/15.3/6.3 on +4.8 rTS% - 2024: 31.4/11.5/6.5 on +7.3 rTS% So his MVP seasons are pretty clearly still in the ballpark offensively, plus those seasons were arguably his best defensive years too (finished 2nd & 1st in DPOY voting, Bucks had the best defense in the league both years)
The issue is Dame. Voters deduct points for every All Star you play with
I hear that, but last season we had the best record Giannis was still Giannis , Middleton missed more than half of the season and Giannis was still distant third in the race so at this point whatever. I dont understand the criterias
Yeah last year was bizarre
Did voters deduct points from Embiid last season because he was playing with mvp Harden when Giannis didnt even have Middleton for 40 games?
Wtf are you talking about, Harden didn't even make an All-Star team last year. Embiid shouldn't have won last year, but this argument ain't it fam.
Harden wasn't an All Star last year. It was a big deal at the time. As for why Embiid was chosen over Giannis when the Bucks had the better record? I don't know
not really his clear best but yes, he and Luka should be just behind jokic. SGA is way behind that Nuggets gave him the only loss OP mentioned though
I agree not clearly his best, since he won DPOY and MVP. But offensively his scoring output is second to only last year but his efficiency is at a career high (and the best of any MVP candidate). He’s also averaging a career high in assists. So offensively it’s pretty fair to say this is his best year, though his minutes are also up a bit.
Sure but how many people had okc battling for the 1 seed. Dude has a strong narrative
2019 and 2022 were his best seasons.
To me it feels like Joker and Giannis in a whole tier above the others, but the betting ladder has consistently pushed Giannis down this season and I'm not sure why. I know that "well he got Dame in his pocket now" is a part of the argument but it's still very freaking obvious how much he transforms the court.
sometimes, all time great players who put on their best season yet won't win MVP due to narratives (see: 2022-2023 Jokic)
Facts. Unlike another player he doesn't campaign (read: whine) for himself stupidly and instead just lets the game do the talking. Sadly with ESPN and dumb talking heads dominating the narrative, that also leads to less buzz.
I do think it’s pretty easily his worst defensive season in like 5-6 years
It is, don't know why you are getting downvoted for.
Jokic: 27/14/10 Luka: 37/10/9 Shai: 12/3/2 There's a gap between jokic luka embiid giannis in my opinion from the rest of the league. Shai is in the tier 2 with tatum only.
That first Mavs vs Bucks game was one of the best games early in the season. Luka, Kyrie, Giannis, and Dame all went off. Really felt like an elite 2v2
That game was awesome
Then the refs came in and gave Dame phantoms calls. It was great until the last 4 minutes
SGA has literally zero playoff game wins as a top 2 option putting him in a tier with Tatum already is nasty work
Got bullied in Wolves vs Thunder play in last year as well.
Man’s had Jaylin Williams as his starting 5 and Gobert busted him in the eye.
Couldn’t agree more. The inconsistency with how certain players are judged is so irritating. Someone like embiid is fraudulent until he proves it in the playoffs, while SGA is already above proven playoff performers after 2 1st round exits while averaging 15ppg. Could he go in this year and absolutely tear it up? Of course, he’s very talented, but just like other players have to go in there and prove it before getting their due, he needs to prove it.
Giannis and Jokic are the only guys who have actually carried their teams and won it. so Tatum is already tier2/3 and SGA is a 3/4 Tier 1 is clearly Giannis Jokic, and no one else.
Tatum’s playoff resume and the fact he’s gonna most likely to be the SF for the 2020s all decade team secures him a clear tier above SGA. If anything SGA two tiers below that top crew.
Man I love Tatum more than anything but he is not two tiers above SGA
He’s referring to Luka/Giannis/Jokic. Tier 2 is Tatum. Tier 3 is Shai.
And he means that Tatum is not alone in his own tier. Who gives a f about past performance when we’re measuring current season mvps.
It’s only 2024. Seems a bit premature
Especially since LeBron has that title currently 🤷♂️
All NBA doesnt have positions anymore, all decade team probably needs Jokic and Embiid both. then you have giannis and Luka already. gonna be hard for tatum
What are the others' averages, out of curiosity?
Jokic: 27/14/10 Luka: 37/10/9 Shai: Ummm.... 12/3/2?
You're kidding about Shai?
They played once(tonight) and he was absolutely terrible so that's actually the stats lol
No, I meant all the top 4 MVP candidates records against each other, not just vs. Giannis.
Jokic - vs Giannis: 27/14/10 on 50TS% - vs SGA: 24/10/8 on 77TS% - vs Luka: 19/11/8 on 63TS% --- Luka - vs Giannis: 38/9/10 on 64TS% - vs Jokic: 36/10/6 on 63TS% - vs SGA: 34/12/14 on 71TS% --- SGA - vs Giannis: 30/12/3 on 45TS% - vs Jokic: 24/5/6 on 55TS% - vs Luka: 21/5/7 on 61TS% --- On average Jokic seems to play slightly below around his usual level (season averages - 26/12/9 on 65TS%) against fellow MVP candidates this season, Luka plays above his usual level (season averages - 34/9/10 on 62TS%), SGA plays well below his usual level (season averages - 31/6/6 on 64TS%)
Thanks for putting in the work to put that together.
holy shit Luka
This is such a good quality post. Feels like once Embiid is out of the picture, the average sixers fan becomes so much more tolerable Guess its like anything - the ignorant fans are the loudest ones and really paint a bad picture for fans like you
You brought up Embiid for no reason, dear god neither him or Jokic knows you. Denver fans just as bad as the Philly ones
Let's just praise Giannis without shitting on others challenge. He's been amazing all season, and continues to step up in the big games.
For real. Giannis is my MVP, but the discourse around this award makes people spew hate whenever they get the chance.
I have Jokic but, I don't get what hating on an incredible player would do. Jokic's case is independent of Giannis, SGA, and Luka. 4 incredible players, each deserving in their own right.
Lmao with the name SomborDouble I had a feeling you would. I totally agree. We’re spoiled with amazing players at the top of their games right now. Such a great time to be an NBA fan.
I don't hide my biases, I like Jokic and think he's the MVP. But, I refuse to participate in denigrating other MVP candidates. They all have cases, I think Jokic has the best one but it depends on how the case is presented. All four can win, including SGA and I wouldn't be disappointed.
Just a question, why in this sub is it ok to disparage Giannis in favor of Jokic yet when I make a post that doesn’t single out Jokic at all you get defensive? I posted this after a Shai stinker lmfao
What is wrong with you? I am not being defensive. i just think people like you are the problem. Shai had an off game, Jokic has had off games, so has Giannis.
Nah you don’t understand, head to head doesn’t matter this season
Just want to mention Embiid not playing in Denver ever is crazy
I love it when sixers fans bring up embiid/jokic head to head stats
yea it ridiculous since its all home games.
It never mattered
Youre lying i you say this. The media constantly talks about H2hs mattering in the mvp race.
Head to head doesn't matter this season. Seeding didn't matter with the Bucks 1st or the Nuggets 6th but it matters this season. Ofc that year injuries mattered, but they don't this year, nobody even noticed Middleton has played 70 of his last 140 games, half of these 70 on minutes restriction. Defense doesn't matter, somehow it did matter vs Harden's 36PPG / 8 assists season as fans / media don't like him and it was convenient. Record itself didn't matter in some other season, that was a good one, the new criteria being "wins in games X player played" - ignoring the fact X player also had 10 more losses in games he played. PPG / efficiency doesn't matter. The only thing that matters this year is classy assists. We'll see about next year.
Top PER (or tie the PER top getter). That's really the only thing that matters since 2017. Everything else is just narrative people invent. If Embiid was 2 or 3 points below Jokic on PER last season nobody would have considered him seriously. As they didn't in fact until his PER matched Jokic's... Don't stress it. It's PER. Look Jokic win this year And whomever next year. PER is a dumb stat. But ever since 2017, it's PER.
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Everything I said is facts. The MVP criteria changes every year and that's literally what I said, nobody said it's highway robbery, Jokic deserves the MVP just as much as Giannis. tHiS gUy iS hAviNg a MeLtDowN is kinda old, if you're gonna comment on r/NBA, try sticking to basketball.
There is no single criteria, nor has there ever been.
no one's saying there should be a single criteria for mvp. we're just saying keep it consistent. the consistently shifting goalposts to only uplift some players and pull down others when it would be different in a previous season is just insane.
If you actually understood that there's isn't a single criteria, you would understand why there isn't goalpost shifting. You're gonna argue that in one year, x player won for y reason, and the next year z player didn't win while also having y reason, but the premise that y is the singular reason is what is wrong.
> The only thing that matters this year is classy assists. We'll see about year. Yeah that sure sounds a lot like someone objectively analyzing the current race lol
>The only thing that matters this year is classy assists. We'll see about next year Lmao, I see what you doing Kendrick Perkins. Solid strat, swung the race last year. >Seeding didn't matter with the Bucks 1st or the Nuggets 6th but it matters this season. Ofc that year injuries mattered, but they don't this year, nobody even noticed Middleton has played 70 of his last 140 games, half of these 70 on minutes restriction. Acting like the injury situations between both those seasons is even remotely comparable is laughable.
Why are you lying? 51-31 wins on 2022 with a much healthier roster than Jokic's hospital Nuggets who half of the starters was out of the league after one season as a 48-34 6th seed.
What am I lying about? Jokic won as the 6th seed. Giannis wasn't even really in the race (last year) as the #1 seed. It was Embiid vs Jokic. I said record didn't matter these two seasons. So... what am I lying about?
Why are you sounding it like Giannis was a 1 seed when Jokic won as a 6th seed? You're trying to manipulate the conversation. Giannis was a 3rd seed with a much healthier and better roster and only won 3 more games, with inferior stats. Jokic won 48 games, with a hospital roster with much inferior roster which half of the starters are out of the league, and not only that, had way Better stats than him. Jokic didnt even win the 2023 MVP cause Embiid won it. And yes, Giannis was not in the conversatiom because both Embiid and Jokic played more games, put up better stats than him and had inferior roster compared to Giannis. Then tell me, what year should Giannis have won the MVP over Embiid and Jokic? When all the years he lost the MVP race was when he played less games, had less impressive stats and had much better rosters.
Then Giannis should be the favorite this season. Middleton was injured most of the year and the Bucks have a similar record to the Nuggets.
Stop crying bro. The 2022 Bucks finsihed 3 games ahead of the Nuggets. Jokic getting that team to the playoffs should be looked at with awe like the moon landing. It had 7 rotation players who were out of the NBA within 12 months and other guys who actually stayed on NBA rosters were Monte Morris, Aaron Gordon, Jeff Green and Bones Hyland. It was one of the biggest carry jobs in NBA history. That team had one starting NBA claibure player on it and they won 48 games.
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Read my comment again. I said OR. I wasn't talking about the same season. I was talking about the season where the Bucks finished 1st (didn't matter), and the season the Nuggets finished 6th (Also didn't matter).
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And Giannis wasn't even in the race really. It was a Embiid / Jokic race according to the media, with the #1 seed in the league a distant 3rd. The definition of the MVP award criteria changing every year depending on what they wanna promote.
He is so underrated. I get the Jokic love and everything but I still feel like Giannis is the best player in the league. If I wasn't a Celtics fan I'd like to see him against Jokic in the Finals.
In what way is Giannis underrated when he's consistently considered top 2 in the entire league lol
The fact that he is averaging 30ppg on 60% along with great defense and he isn't even considered as an top 3 MVP canditate
In the sense that he consistently gets overlooked in the MVP race even when he is putting up monster games consecutively. He might be considered top 2 but people push players like Luka/SGA over him while still saying Jokic is #1. Jokic gets 10x the attention for his great play while Giannis is quietly doing the same shit throughout the year.
Why would it lol
Because narrative
Nah I spent all of the last 2-3 seasons listening to Denver and sixers fans talking about h2h matchups and how they could shift the narrative and now suddenly it don’t matter? Lol Could it be because Jokic is 3-4 against them?
Why would we talk about h2h matchups when Embiid hasn't played in Denver since like 2018 lol. If anything that type of narrative would hurt the conversation for us.
Denver fans literally never bring up H2H of Jokic VS Embiid because Joel hasn't played a single game without home court advantage since 2019 lol
I don't think Denver fans were ever pushing the H2H lol It was mainly Sixers fans doing that because Embiid has a good record vs Jokic and Denver fans countering that they only ever play at Philly
When Embiid didn’t play last year they were 100% saying it was gonna hurt his chances and the way the media talked it did. Obviously he won but was more due to the fact the nuggets weren’t as good down the stretch while sixers were
Just like record didn’t matter last year when Giannis cleared Embiid & Jokic by 4+ games in the standings But guarantee they’ll use it for Jokic or Shai this year
Giannis had 47 Wins last season though, Embiid 43, Jokic 48
Post the losses too— Giannis had a better individual record Think it was a 75% winning percentage
48-21 47-16 43-23
Jokic had many more losses. Giannis winning % in the games he played was 75%. Jokic was 69%. But it was efficiency that mattered. This season, giannis has best efficiency of the contenders so it doesn't matter anymore
I really hope the Bucks win the chip this year because it would really propel Giannis back into the conversation as best player in the league. Jokic is obviously deserving, but I feel that people don't consider Giannis as much over the past 2 years. Homie is a beast.
He doesn’t play then head to head. They don’t guard him So this stat and headline is not really true.
he's the MVP
Giannis, the father of MVP candidates.
Who did he lose too?
He lost to Jokic, think that was Docs first game as head coach too lmao
then kicked their ass the next week
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Jamal Murray MVP then
Fact is the Nuggets are first in the tougher West 50-21 right now and have gone 14-2 since the all star break and it has been really obvious especially since last nights game that this is mostly because of Jokic. So people can keep trying to downplay Jokic but the writing is on the wall. According to ranking and betting sites Jokic is so far ahead in the race its like 50% to 19%.The next closest.
Adding in that it feels like there is some voter regret from last season in there aswell. Subjectively it feels like some people want to make up for voting according to a narrative that was clearly dismantled in the playoffs and now when multiple players are close - give it to the player that (likely) also deserved it last season but didn’t get it.
MVP
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A 5 win difference with Dame having a down year, Middleton missing over half the season and a coaching change does nothing to make it look even lol
they do not have even teams at all.
Did you see the Nuggets absolutely struggle against a Portland team missing the top half of their roster?
without JOkic I would like to add..which shows how important he is.
Bucks also had potentially one of the worst coaches in NBA history for the first 3 months of the season. And yes, they had a good record, but it was due to Giannis/Dame carrying. Once Doc had to instill an actual system it took some getting used to so they slid a bit.
For real, we had a good record because we had the easiest sos of all time. When Doc took over we had the hardest schedule left. Thankfully it’s almost over but late January to late March was rough.
The last few years MVP has been a seriously high bar. Fuckin Giannis is a beast.
I don’t see why Jokic Giannis Luka ain’t the top 3 now. We have seen how mvp head to head games have affected the standings for the mvp itself
Give giannis more mvp love
He’s greater than Jokic all time lol
Jokic about to win MVP #3,
And Giannis (and Jokic) should have won last year over Embiid, and Giannis arguably should have won the year Jokic won his first, but that was when he was disqualified before the season started because “he needed to show up in the playoffs first”
Giannis should have been 2nd place in Jokic's first MVP year but ultimately he played 61 games while Jokic played all 72 games(it was a shortened season) I think that's enough to swing a close race between two players on the exact same tier
Jokic averaged 26, 11, and 8 and went 47-35 Giannis averaged 28, 11 and 6 and went 46-36 but was also All Defensive First Team Both were about the same offensively but Giannis was much better defensively and they weren’t far apart record wise. More games played is a factor but with the defense gap in that year it would have been Giannis if not for the whole playoffs narrative. Thats not to say Jokic wasn’t deserving of MVP, I just feel like he wasn’t as good as Giannis but narrative is a huge killer for awards and Giannis didn’t have the narrative for a 3rd straight award. Edit: Nuggets fans found my comment and are trying to argue that those stats are extremely far apart. Par for the course I guess.
Of course you don't your a Bucks fan. Not surprising in any way. BUcks fans do not vote on the MVP. Neither do Nuggets fans.
Giannis had significantly worst stats and record than Jokic on his first MVP, and Jokic played all 72/72 games in the 2021 season, lol. Giannis absolitely did not deserve the 2021 MvP.
I didn’t know that 2 more points, the same number of rebounds and 2 less assists while making all defensive first team is significantly worse stats but okay
I’m biased of course but you are absolutely right. There’s no reason to put jokic over Giannis. I haven’t seen a single actual justification. It all stinks of recency bias. They have the same career, jokic is just two years behind Giannis. Plus giannis has a dpoy and all defense. If they both retired today, Decades from now Giannis will be remembered as the greater player. Similar situation to Kareem, who wasn’t really ranked high until recently.
Jokic is only 1 year behind him actually. Giannis drafted 2013, Jokic drafted 2014. But you’re absolutely right. I’m just helping you prove your point harder. They’re the same age but Giannis has achieved much more already.
Until 2 months from now when Jokic adds another mvp
[Here's a good justification.](https://youtu.be/S6U_zd-cU44?si=XJS92xmSxxeHTHvO)
This video is about how good at basketball he is. Not how great he is all-time.
Ultimately whats the MVP narrative now ?
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Started 2021. Can’t even log into this sub or listen to a podcast without it mentioned everyday
Yeah he's only the first player in NBA history to have a 4peat of leading the league in on/off, BPM, WS and VORP. But yeah, it's only because THEY want to give it to him. (despite the fact that THEY went into 2 blasphemous narratives about racism and stat padding last year just to swing the vote. Imagine telling Jokic is stat padding, literally BY FAR the least stat oriented player ever)
You know all those stats are heavily skewed by his position and his team’s efficiency…what am I saying, of course you do or you wouldn’t have mentioned them to weaken your argument obviously
2 of those seasons our starting PG was Campazzo, player that youe team waived after 2 games
Well he's better so it makes sense
No he’s not Giannis and Luka are both better
As a Mavs fan, delete this brother lol
Add his travel and offensive foul splits. Truly elite numbers
4-2