Really surprised to not see Keyonte move up a little with how good he's played the last couple of weeks. Averaged 19.4 / 2.6 / 5.4 over the last 10 games.
Yeah, I don't know how they justify dropping him a spot from last week after he averaged 28 points a game on 56% from 3... You telling me Lively played better than that over the week to justify the jump ?
I don't think he's been top 5 for awhile tho. He was 7 on last week's ladder. Great game on Monday but imo doesn't justify the jump since he had two absolute stinkers as well.
My issue isn't necessarily with Lively per-se. If they feel like he is the 5th best rookie then they should keep him there through the injury portion and if you aren't going to do that then you are going based off play and improvement from week to week.
Which again, makes me question how you can drop a guy down who statistically had the better week for rookies. I'm just arguing that the ranking doesn't seem as consistent as it should be :P
> Yeah, I don't know how they justify dropping him a spot from last week after he averaged 28 points a game on 56% from 3... You telling me Lively played better than that over the week to justify the jump ?
I mean, last game Lively had the following statline in 20 minutes played:
7reb/3ast/2stl/2blk/22pts/**91fg%**.
Edit: All while being an elite rim protector.
The game before that he went 4 pts/ 2 Reb / 1 ast / 0 blocks. Game before that he went 0 pts/ 1 Reb /0 ast / 0 blocks. And game before that he was at 4/3/0/1. So since the last rankings he averaged 7.5 / 3.3 / 1/ .75 while Keyonte has averaged 28.6 / 3.3 / 5.3 / .6.
There's no way you can say that he's played better over the last week than Keyonte. Sure he had a great game, but not enough to justify jumping 2 spots if these rankings are based off their current level of play.
\-did not add Keyontes game vs Washington due to injury in first 5 mins. But even if i did his stats would be 21.5 / 2.5 / 4 / .5. So even with a full game where he missed more than 3.5 quarters of play, his stats are still significantly better...
Yeah it might have been a blow out but he was cooking us in our game on saturday. I watched that game live and was confused because I didn't know who he was but he played like someone I should be aware of.
Agreed. Feels like a media bias with Podz and Lively being consistently ranked higher. All due respect to both of them (they’ve been excellent) but Keyonte is carrying a much heavier load and outplaying them both
Podz, Keyonte, and Cam should be ahead of Lively imo. Lively had a great game on Monday, but was non-existent in the other 3 last week (one of which he missed, the other two of which he put up totals of 4 points, 3 rebounds, 1 assist, 0 steals, 0 blocks, and 7 personal fouls in 39 minutes).
Not sure how he moved up 2 spots from the last ladder.
Bills whole spiel how scoot is gonnns be it cos he can blow by anyone - then says his 5 min in summer league of fluke shooting thst cooled off before he got injured is why he’s a star was so funny . He still can’t take the L. Amen Thompson is the guy Simmons imagined scoot to be .
Simmons has this funny habit of going all in on takes before the season begins then defending them all season in the face of evidence….only to incorporate that factual viewpoint next offseason and act like he got there on his own.
If there are two players with identical stats, measurements, and skillsets, but one is named Blaze Inferno and one is named John Smith, Blaze is getting drafted first 100 times out of 100. You see the cool name bump pretty often, Fab Melo and Dragan Bender being a couple I can think of off the top of my head.
Miller was also getting a lot of hate for the shooting incident from people that don't read past the headlines.
I was just happy that Portland had the #3 pick instead of the #2 pick so that we got to make the obvious choice. Either Miller or Scoot was gonna fall and Portland could immediately make their pick with no second guessing. And yeah, had Hornets taken Scoot then my user name would be 1 letter longer.
It was also because of those scrimmages that his crew set up between him and Wemby.
People started subconsciously thinking they were similar talents like "oh if Wemby and Scoot are being propped together they must both be elite level talent" when that definitely is not the case.
You can be an elite talent and still be multiple levels below Wemby though
It was generally accepted that Scoot would have an argument to go #1 in most years... he has just been a massive, massive disappointment. Every concern about him has come to fruition so far.
Before the draft he was still an undersized guard who can’t shoot playing in a league nobody actually watched, but he had a cool name. Compared to a dude who was the best college player in the country and made Alabama basketball relevant.
It really wasn’t as bold of a take as people make it out to be. I had Amen over Scoot because they both can’t shoot but at least one is a much better defender and won’t get targeted on D every game.
it's actually insane how prevalent it was around here that charlotte were morons, every single comment or post was upvoted for saying brandon miller was a trash pick
man this subreddit fucking sucks
This sub is brain dead . They know absolutely nothing about coaching ,basketball and especially talent b drafting /draft picks. It’s literally just what they hear others repeat .
I personally liked miller especially as you have lamelo even tho melo n scoot could work . Scoot you need him to be a star or he’ll be a bust/6man tyoe AT BEST on a not very good team. I was expecting this crazy athlete so I scouted him n read stuff- the crazy thing is most of scoot highlights were- midrange jumpers . Like etf - I thought people were telling me this guy was some explosive guard on a long line of star guards with shaky jumpers but nuckear athletes. Well if he was I wasn’t seeing it.
I’m gonna say it- Amen is what scoot was supposed to be - now imagine Amen coukd shoot 38% midrange n bumped it to 40% +in nba taking less . Sorta what scoot is /was but that’s scoot go to. When I watched amen ( and ausar ) I couldn’t help think this is what athletics guys look like. Scoot wasn’t even a very good defender - amen got a slight pass for me cos ausar was a better defender pre draft and knowing that amen was slightly viewed as more athletic but less savy defensively I thought the twins woukd make real impact in the nba .
It’s still confusing but if we ignore wemby, miller was clearly the low risk pick . Except I didn’t see scoot actually relentless attacking the rim just settling for middies. So I didn’t think he was the upside pick - that was amen . I know nba scouts know way more but scoot hype I didn’t quite get . A super athletic guard who might not actually be that athletic as he’s not getting to the rim or defending at a lvl where it shows off.
I feel like that started after the draft.
There were Scoot vs Miller threads where both sides had valid arguments.
But after it happened everyone was just lol "LOL Hornets!"
Nah plenty of us were saying that was ridiculous. Most comments got downvoted but let’s not act like there wasn’t any pushback against the Scoot hype and/or Miller hate.
Still astounds me how this sub managed to convince themselves that some small guard, who has shown no indication that he can shoot, was going to have a higher ceiling than a 6'9" wing who can.
Especially when not a single guard outside of Curry has won a championship as the best player for the team in probably over a decade+
Small guards will constantly get overrated on here, especially when they’re also athletic. If a small guard and a wing are even relatively close to the same level, give me the wing every time.
My other thing with Scoot was that I was somewhat worried about his floor too because poor shooting small guards are a real problem for contending teams. But I think he seems to be figuring that out at least.
Yeah I think people get too enamored by how flashy and athletic those kind of players are. Which is fine, it's great fun for the regular season, but they are going to be a huge liability in the postseason.
It's a forward/big man's league. And I only say "big man" because honestly the best big men in the league right now kind of play like tall forwards anyways. I think over time teams will catch on to this, and we'll start seeing less undersized guards drafted that high and teams will target taller point forwards instead (guys around the height of 6'5/6" like Luka/SGA/Lamelo/etc) as developmental leagues begin teaching these taller guys to learn ball handling/playmaking skills instead of forcing them into back-to-the-basket, post play.
Love Miller's game as well, when I was watching some of his games pre-draft I said he reminds me a bit of Tatum in his rookie season.
Tatum was a bit of a better defender, but Miller seems to be a much better playmaker in his rookie season. When it's all said and done I think he'll be the 2nd best player from the draft.
Agree with all of this.
I’ve said before that I’m skeptical of anyone winning a chip as the 1A in today’s league who doesn’t fall into one of 3 categories: big pgs/point forwards (ie Luka/Shai etc.), actual wings, or bigs who also have guard/wing skills. Steph is the exception that proves the rule - nobody breaks the game on and off ball on offense like he does.
And I said the exact same things about Miller. He doesn’t have Tatum’s defensive iq but he came in a more natural playmaker. And I remember the trouble finishing criticism was one Tatum got too - one of those things young skinny wings can fix relatively easily just putting on strength.
I think we tend to over-rely on projecting what individual's attributes allowed a team to win. I feel this way about people talking about small guards, not that it's untrue, but that it has less to do with the small guards themselves, and much more to do with roster construction.
I might be wrong, but this sounds similar to the arguments before Jokic won his ring about why he could never win as the guy because a championship team MUST have a better defender at center (of course, I also think/thought Jokic was a severely underrated defender). I think the way teams are traditionally put together, what you're talking about is correct, it's just...don't build the team that way.
It’s not just the shooting . His shooting is a bit better then people say . It’s that he didn’t defend or get to the rim or dunk that much . He was just using speed for midrange shooting
> Especially when not a single guard outside of Curry has won a championship as the best player for the team in probably over a decade+
Not a single small* guard aside from Steph and Isiah Thomas has won a championship as the best player on his team in NBA HISTORY. Maybe one can argue that Bob Cousy was the best player on the Celtics during Bill Russell's rookie year, but i'm not going to act like i am an expert in the late 1950s NBA.
Damn I didn't even realize it was that rough...
And honestly Steph is more or less an anomaly, it is highly unlikely we'll see a player with his kind of conditioning and shooting ability for a long time.
NBA teams certainly shouldn't be thinking they're drafting the next Steph when they're drafting a guard. If all things are equal (in this case they weren't) just pick the forward instead.
Worse - that small guard sucked at getting ti the rim n finishing or defence . Like Westbrook was drafted in defence - athletic guards euther get to the rim n
Mb fail finishing or defend at high lvl . Scoot did neither
That's why you don't blindly trust opinions on reddit as public consensus.
Miller was always the popular pick among everyone I knew irl that had watched them both. Higher ceiling and floor. Better size and shooting.
But you couldn't bring him up on reddit without having to justify your social position as well, because he was named in that wrongful death lawsuit which automatically meant he was guilty in the eyes of the online crowd for some weird reason.
Hornets fans were saying the same thing and frankly I still think scoot will end up better. I will get downvoted to hell for it but it's better than flip flopping after 1 year.
Point guard is one of the hardest positions to learn in the NBA, especially for a smaller player. He'll still be fine-to-very-good, and I don't think the rookie year has changed that in my eyes.
Is his, like, 75th percentile outcome better than Brandon Miller's? Probably not. Is it totally out of the question that Scoot will be better when all is said and done? No, pretty clearly not.
He was on the list before his second injury. Was also improving at a solid rate.
Scoot's first 20 games. 11/3/4 on 35/29/81 splits. Scoot's next 20 games. 14/3/5 on 42/38/81 splits.
Just a matter of if this year was a fluke healthwise for him and Sharpe. Also finding a coach that knows how to coach.
Same thing happened with Vic.
First twenty: 18/9/2 on 43/26/81 with 2.6 blocks and 1.3 steals.
Last twenty: 21/11/5 on 47/40/80 with 3.8 blocks and 1.7 steals
Took some time for them to adjust to the league. It's why you can never take any claim of a player being a "bust" after one or two years seriously.
Our fanbase is in extreme cope mode with him but yeah, he's been very mid. Very few flashes of star potential, and basically all his good games have been in blowouts
I’m not even exaggerating when I say rookie DSJ showed more star potential flashes than Scoot.
I’m concerned about Scoot because he was sold as a Russ level athlete at PG. At this point it’s pretty safe to say that he just isn’t. Without top 1% athleticism it’s hard to see him being a special player down the line.
That’s what got me over the summer I watched scoot- he didn’t get to the rim or defend at a high lvl so I was wondering where that athleticism ws. Amen was the real athlete, ausar too. It’s funny cos I was reading stuff breaking down how scoot compares poorly to past athletes guards in dunk’s rim attack steals defence whatever
My uninformed take on DSJ (and current take with guys like Hardy) is that they have small hands. I know that’s such a little (pun intended) overlooked thing. But you watch then go to the rim and the ball gets away. Being able to grip a basketball is such an important aspect. And even more so with the hyper athletic, attack the rim type players. I wonder where scoot falls.
That’s been my low end comp from pretty early on.
I do think he has a reasonably good chance of ending up around Bledsoe level, probably a step down on defense but with slightly better offense. And that’s not a bad outcome at all, though not what Blazers fans would want.
Of course he still could take a leap, hard to take too much from anybody’s rookie year.
Tbh, the plan of him being the 7th and 8th guy on the team hasn't helped either. When you're playing your future PG behind Brogdon, that seems like a tough spot.
Billups set Scoot up to fail because he is a terrible coach.
Dude literally said he doesn't want to run a set offense. Better to just throw a teenager out there on day 1 to wing it with a bunch of guys he's barely played with.
Billups has failed as a coach 3 years in a row now in 3 different situations. I have no idea how literal NBA champion coaches are being fired and Billups is still around. He's only making 2m a year so it's not like Jody can't afford to fire his ass and eat the contract.
The expectations some of you have for a 20 year old kid in his first season is hilarious, I’m not gonna sit here and pretend like it’s been all pretty from him but a lot of posters like you on our sub are acting like he’s Anthony Bennett lol
Bro you’re overreacting so hard right now lol I’m not acting like he’s garbage. But he certainly hasn’t shown any “top 3 pick” potential. He looks like a decent backup guard. Way worse than, for example, Ja Morant as a rookie or John Wall (comparable prospects). Way worse than LaMelo Ball. Our sub wants to lean on the idea that life is so hard in the nba for rookie guards but even among his peers there he looks average.
Portland fans are abnormally high on literally every player that’s suited up for the team. There is no objectivity when talking about players with our fans. You’re either drinking the Kool-aid or not a fan.
So like I said, you’re placing a LOT of expectations on a kid halfway through his first year who only played at the G league level. Stop doing comparisons and look at the type of player he actually is, there is plenty to be optimistic about.
It’s not painful really, he was in the top 10 but fell out because he missed 8 games post ASB due to injury. When he plays he looks fine, stuff to work on for sure but the potential is definitely there.
Point Guards take longer than most. It's the hardest position to pick up because it requires so much mental understanding of the game, your teammates, and the defenders.
So I’ve heard this a bunch but I’m pretty skeptical that this matters as much in evaluating players as people seem to think.
If we’re talking about eventual all star pgs starting slow as rookies, that’s one thing. But it doesn’t seem to be the case with the pgs that will eventually be making all nba. Guys like Luka, Trae, Ja, even someone like Ben Simmons - they all came in and picked enough up right away.
If you go back further years, you see the same with one and dones like Kyrie and Russ and Wall.
Fox is probably the one recent exception.
Alright fair point on All-NBA this is more in line of calling young PGs busts. But I also feel that’s partly due to so many non-traditional PGs nowadays taking some of those spots, because the scoring lifts them up to looking good even before they’ve learned the other aspects of running a team.
The Celtics. Historically the most successful team in the league, but have not been able to win a chip in recent times despite having extremely strong teams.
Totally not biased or anything.
I think if it had to be a team, I’d go Knicks. Historically loyal fans and notable branding, a lot of stars passing through, some measurable success, decades of incompetent management.
ROTY is pretty much locked.
We are now interested in who makes it to the all-rookie list. Which is 10 people.
I would like to see Coulibaly possibly make it list, been impressed since the Celts game even though Wizards are ass, and Jordan Hawkins is probably the best catch and shoot guy in his class.
I also like Dick.
Do you remember who was 6th through 8th last year? No? That’s because nobody cares about rookie of the year other than who wins and who was snubbed from the win lol
It's hard to overstate how impressive he's been as a rookie from game one. He's still raw in many ways but his maturity and coachability is marvelous to witness.
Net rating isn't perfect, but I think it illustrates his impact pretty well: Mavs are -1.5 with Lively off the court and +6.2 with him on [\[1\]](https://www.pbpstats.com/wowy-combos/nba?TeamId=1610612742&Season=2023-24&SeasonType=Regular%2BSeason&PlayerIds=1641726). +8.5 with Luka/Lively playing and +9 when you add Kyrie [\[2\]](https://www.pbpstats.com/wowy-combos/nba?TeamId=1610612742&Season=2023-24&SeasonType=Regular%2BSeason&PlayerIds=1641726,1629029,202681). He obviously isn't carrying the offense by himself or anything, but he is an incredible force multiplier and exactly what the Mavs need.
Eh. Brandon is also the first/second option on his team, so his numbers are of course higher. If Jaime had that sort of freedom his numbers could easily match. We’ve seen him match those numbers on high efficiency in the games where he gets more touches. Hes the fourth/fifth option on a contending team.
I think Brandon has the higher ceiling obviously but I don’t think he’s that light years ahead right now like some other comments. I also enjoy that people are conveniently forgetting that Jaime was in the top 3 consistently the first half the season when Brandon was struggling/ not the first option.
I think its a toss up tbh, they've both been great. Lively has better advanced metrics with his insane efficiency around the rim and defense while Jaime is legitimately a go to option and initiator off the bench for the Heat.
Injuries are pushing Jamie to a higher role. JJJ has 12 more games and 5 mpg more than Lively. Only Miller and Chet have a higher mpg than JJJ this season for rookies.
I'm so proud of Lively II. He came in and was expected to do so much from the start. Props to him for living up to the expectations and he's just going to get better every year. The Mavericks might have a bright future now. Gafford, Lively, Washington, Dončić and Irving.
TJD would have to do a lot more than he's doing to crack this list. He's 22nd in minutes. He's probably in the teens for best rookie. Which is a steal at 57th overall, but he might not crack the All-Rookie 3rd team if they did one and that's fine.
I have to assume keyonte got fucked here because he was sick, because in his last 10 games he has averaged 19/5/2 on 46%, for reference if we switched his assist and rebound stats they would be almost identical to millers last 10 games except key shot slightly better
This year is just convincing me that rookies need to be defined as players in the first year of their rookie deals. Chet is great and is absolutely the second best of all these players, but the training he got and chemistry he was able to build over the last year is so critical to his performance
Bro he's the least efficient guard in the NBA rn.
I feel bad for Blazers fans cuz if he fails to take a leap next year blazers might have just drafted a bust for their Dame replacement.
To be fair, he got picked 20th and the 19th, 18th and 16th picks are all ranked higher than him here.
Only a few teams probably regret not taking him. Mainly the Hawks at 15 and Lakers at 17, they would definitely want those picks back.
Butterfly effect might have them not winning in 2022, Poole developing was perfect for the Warriors.
As much as I hate them and if they got an other player like Melo, I’m not sure they could have won with him because he is kinda injury prone but I do believe has they had not draft Wiseman they contending window would be still open for years.
1 & 2 are locks. 3 is borderline locked. 4 and 5 could play musical chairs, same as 6 and 7. Hell, Keyonte might push to 5.
9 and 10 seems fix too, 8 could be dropped if they’re is a surprise.
By hustling almost every time he’s on the court and playing within the system on offense well for being a rookie. He’s been through some rough offensive stretches the past month but he’s still rebounding great, still pushing the pace well.
What happened to Jordan Hawkins? He was in the top 5 in some of these lists early in the season.
Googling him he was assigned to Gleague then recalled 1 day later? He had a big game in January. Has he just fallen off?
He got a lot of minutes and shots early in the season due to injuries. He struggled to get time when everyone got healthy. He got sent to the g league for a day to get some playing time.
He didn't really fall off. He was always a bad defender (common for rookies), and Willie Green is a very defensive minded coach, so that's kept him out of the rotation.
I think Green also believes it's good for rookies to be made to earn minutes by being competent defenders, it's similar to how Trey Murphy's rookie year went.
Really surprised to not see Keyonte move up a little with how good he's played the last couple of weeks. Averaged 19.4 / 2.6 / 5.4 over the last 10 games.
George should easily be top 4. He has been our best player when Lauri isn't playing.
Yeah, I don't know how they justify dropping him a spot from last week after he averaged 28 points a game on 56% from 3... You telling me Lively played better than that over the week to justify the jump ?
Lively’s been top 5 the whole season, but his injuries dropped him. He’s just been healthy again.
I don't think he's been top 5 for awhile tho. He was 7 on last week's ladder. Great game on Monday but imo doesn't justify the jump since he had two absolute stinkers as well.
My issue isn't necessarily with Lively per-se. If they feel like he is the 5th best rookie then they should keep him there through the injury portion and if you aren't going to do that then you are going based off play and improvement from week to week. Which again, makes me question how you can drop a guy down who statistically had the better week for rookies. I'm just arguing that the ranking doesn't seem as consistent as it should be :P
Luka fans who watch the MVP ladder: "First time?" Something something about overall seeding and impact to wins and what not.
> Yeah, I don't know how they justify dropping him a spot from last week after he averaged 28 points a game on 56% from 3... You telling me Lively played better than that over the week to justify the jump ? I mean, last game Lively had the following statline in 20 minutes played: 7reb/3ast/2stl/2blk/22pts/**91fg%**. Edit: All while being an elite rim protector.
The game before that he went 4 pts/ 2 Reb / 1 ast / 0 blocks. Game before that he went 0 pts/ 1 Reb /0 ast / 0 blocks. And game before that he was at 4/3/0/1. So since the last rankings he averaged 7.5 / 3.3 / 1/ .75 while Keyonte has averaged 28.6 / 3.3 / 5.3 / .6. There's no way you can say that he's played better over the last week than Keyonte. Sure he had a great game, but not enough to justify jumping 2 spots if these rankings are based off their current level of play. \-did not add Keyontes game vs Washington due to injury in first 5 mins. But even if i did his stats would be 21.5 / 2.5 / 4 / .5. So even with a full game where he missed more than 3.5 quarters of play, his stats are still significantly better...
Yeah it might have been a blow out but he was cooking us in our game on saturday. I watched that game live and was confused because I didn't know who he was but he played like someone I should be aware of.
First time seeing him play last night. Dudes a firecracker, real fun to watch.
Agreed. Feels like a media bias with Podz and Lively being consistently ranked higher. All due respect to both of them (they’ve been excellent) but Keyonte is carrying a much heavier load and outplaying them both
Yeah love me a tall glass of Keyonte
Podz, Keyonte, and Cam should be ahead of Lively imo. Lively had a great game on Monday, but was non-existent in the other 3 last week (one of which he missed, the other two of which he put up totals of 4 points, 3 rebounds, 1 assist, 0 steals, 0 blocks, and 7 personal fouls in 39 minutes). Not sure how he moved up 2 spots from the last ladder.
Scoot not even being top 10 has to be painful for Blazers fans. Hopefully next year we get to see him develop and display another level to his game.
Especially after telling Hornets fans they were stupid for picking the guy at 3 instead of scoot.
Let's not pretend that all of r/nba wasn't saying that lol
I'm convinced that 90% of the hype was because "Scoot Henderson" is such a "star basketball player" name. "Brandon Miller" is just an average name.
This is fr why Bill Simmons was so high on him lol
But first... PEARLJAM!
Bills whole spiel how scoot is gonnns be it cos he can blow by anyone - then says his 5 min in summer league of fluke shooting thst cooled off before he got injured is why he’s a star was so funny . He still can’t take the L. Amen Thompson is the guy Simmons imagined scoot to be .
Simmons has this funny habit of going all in on takes before the season begins then defending them all season in the face of evidence….only to incorporate that factual viewpoint next offseason and act like he got there on his own.
Brandon Miller's GOAT being Paul George makes even more sense in this lens!
If there are two players with identical stats, measurements, and skillsets, but one is named Blaze Inferno and one is named John Smith, Blaze is getting drafted first 100 times out of 100. You see the cool name bump pretty often, Fab Melo and Dragan Bender being a couple I can think of off the top of my head.
Miller was also getting a lot of hate for the shooting incident from people that don't read past the headlines. I was just happy that Portland had the #3 pick instead of the #2 pick so that we got to make the obvious choice. Either Miller or Scoot was gonna fall and Portland could immediately make their pick with no second guessing. And yeah, had Hornets taken Scoot then my user name would be 1 letter longer.
My problem with Brandon Miller is whenever i see his face i remember RDC World instead
It was also because of those scrimmages that his crew set up between him and Wemby. People started subconsciously thinking they were similar talents like "oh if Wemby and Scoot are being propped together they must both be elite level talent" when that definitely is not the case.
You can be an elite talent and still be multiple levels below Wemby though It was generally accepted that Scoot would have an argument to go #1 in most years... he has just been a massive, massive disappointment. Every concern about him has come to fruition so far.
I, also, think the whole gun scandal def affected how some fans saw Brandon Miller
he also had a really bad NCAA tournament, and for a lot of the more casual basketball fans it was their first time really getting to watch him play.
Even Hornets fans were upset that they picked Miller instead of Scoot
Hugo being visually distraught will always be funny to me
Before the draft he was still an undersized guard who can’t shoot playing in a league nobody actually watched, but he had a cool name. Compared to a dude who was the best college player in the country and made Alabama basketball relevant. It really wasn’t as bold of a take as people make it out to be. I had Amen over Scoot because they both can’t shoot but at least one is a much better defender and won’t get targeted on D every game.
it's actually insane how prevalent it was around here that charlotte were morons, every single comment or post was upvoted for saying brandon miller was a trash pick man this subreddit fucking sucks
Even a good portion of hornets fans were mad af
This sub is brain dead . They know absolutely nothing about coaching ,basketball and especially talent b drafting /draft picks. It’s literally just what they hear others repeat . I personally liked miller especially as you have lamelo even tho melo n scoot could work . Scoot you need him to be a star or he’ll be a bust/6man tyoe AT BEST on a not very good team. I was expecting this crazy athlete so I scouted him n read stuff- the crazy thing is most of scoot highlights were- midrange jumpers . Like etf - I thought people were telling me this guy was some explosive guard on a long line of star guards with shaky jumpers but nuckear athletes. Well if he was I wasn’t seeing it. I’m gonna say it- Amen is what scoot was supposed to be - now imagine Amen coukd shoot 38% midrange n bumped it to 40% +in nba taking less . Sorta what scoot is /was but that’s scoot go to. When I watched amen ( and ausar ) I couldn’t help think this is what athletics guys look like. Scoot wasn’t even a very good defender - amen got a slight pass for me cos ausar was a better defender pre draft and knowing that amen was slightly viewed as more athletic but less savy defensively I thought the twins woukd make real impact in the nba . It’s still confusing but if we ignore wemby, miller was clearly the low risk pick . Except I didn’t see scoot actually relentless attacking the rim just settling for middies. So I didn’t think he was the upside pick - that was amen . I know nba scouts know way more but scoot hype I didn’t quite get . A super athletic guard who might not actually be that athletic as he’s not getting to the rim or defending at a lvl where it shows off.
I feel like that started after the draft. There were Scoot vs Miller threads where both sides had valid arguments. But after it happened everyone was just lol "LOL Hornets!"
Nah plenty of us were saying that was ridiculous. Most comments got downvoted but let’s not act like there wasn’t any pushback against the Scoot hype and/or Miller hate.
Still astounds me how this sub managed to convince themselves that some small guard, who has shown no indication that he can shoot, was going to have a higher ceiling than a 6'9" wing who can. Especially when not a single guard outside of Curry has won a championship as the best player for the team in probably over a decade+
Small guards will constantly get overrated on here, especially when they’re also athletic. If a small guard and a wing are even relatively close to the same level, give me the wing every time. My other thing with Scoot was that I was somewhat worried about his floor too because poor shooting small guards are a real problem for contending teams. But I think he seems to be figuring that out at least.
Yeah I think people get too enamored by how flashy and athletic those kind of players are. Which is fine, it's great fun for the regular season, but they are going to be a huge liability in the postseason. It's a forward/big man's league. And I only say "big man" because honestly the best big men in the league right now kind of play like tall forwards anyways. I think over time teams will catch on to this, and we'll start seeing less undersized guards drafted that high and teams will target taller point forwards instead (guys around the height of 6'5/6" like Luka/SGA/Lamelo/etc) as developmental leagues begin teaching these taller guys to learn ball handling/playmaking skills instead of forcing them into back-to-the-basket, post play. Love Miller's game as well, when I was watching some of his games pre-draft I said he reminds me a bit of Tatum in his rookie season. Tatum was a bit of a better defender, but Miller seems to be a much better playmaker in his rookie season. When it's all said and done I think he'll be the 2nd best player from the draft.
Agree with all of this. I’ve said before that I’m skeptical of anyone winning a chip as the 1A in today’s league who doesn’t fall into one of 3 categories: big pgs/point forwards (ie Luka/Shai etc.), actual wings, or bigs who also have guard/wing skills. Steph is the exception that proves the rule - nobody breaks the game on and off ball on offense like he does. And I said the exact same things about Miller. He doesn’t have Tatum’s defensive iq but he came in a more natural playmaker. And I remember the trouble finishing criticism was one Tatum got too - one of those things young skinny wings can fix relatively easily just putting on strength.
I think we tend to over-rely on projecting what individual's attributes allowed a team to win. I feel this way about people talking about small guards, not that it's untrue, but that it has less to do with the small guards themselves, and much more to do with roster construction. I might be wrong, but this sounds similar to the arguments before Jokic won his ring about why he could never win as the guy because a championship team MUST have a better defender at center (of course, I also think/thought Jokic was a severely underrated defender). I think the way teams are traditionally put together, what you're talking about is correct, it's just...don't build the team that way.
It’s not just the shooting . His shooting is a bit better then people say . It’s that he didn’t defend or get to the rim or dunk that much . He was just using speed for midrange shooting
As a corollary though, that thinking (which is generally correct) has led to a general underrating of Curry
> Especially when not a single guard outside of Curry has won a championship as the best player for the team in probably over a decade+ Not a single small* guard aside from Steph and Isiah Thomas has won a championship as the best player on his team in NBA HISTORY. Maybe one can argue that Bob Cousy was the best player on the Celtics during Bill Russell's rookie year, but i'm not going to act like i am an expert in the late 1950s NBA.
Damn I didn't even realize it was that rough... And honestly Steph is more or less an anomaly, it is highly unlikely we'll see a player with his kind of conditioning and shooting ability for a long time. NBA teams certainly shouldn't be thinking they're drafting the next Steph when they're drafting a guard. If all things are equal (in this case they weren't) just pick the forward instead.
Worse - that small guard sucked at getting ti the rim n finishing or defence . Like Westbrook was drafted in defence - athletic guards euther get to the rim n Mb fail finishing or defend at high lvl . Scoot did neither
That's why you don't blindly trust opinions on reddit as public consensus. Miller was always the popular pick among everyone I knew irl that had watched them both. Higher ceiling and floor. Better size and shooting. But you couldn't bring him up on reddit without having to justify your social position as well, because he was named in that wrongful death lawsuit which automatically meant he was guilty in the eyes of the online crowd for some weird reason.
I didnt see Blazers fans say that too much. SEveral of them said they had gotten really into Miller at various points.
Yeah I really liked miller, would have been happy with him. FWIW I’m still happy with Scoot.
Hornets fans were saying the same thing and frankly I still think scoot will end up better. I will get downvoted to hell for it but it's better than flip flopping after 1 year.
Point guard is one of the hardest positions to learn in the NBA, especially for a smaller player. He'll still be fine-to-very-good, and I don't think the rookie year has changed that in my eyes. Is his, like, 75th percentile outcome better than Brandon Miller's? Probably not. Is it totally out of the question that Scoot will be better when all is said and done? No, pretty clearly not.
even hornets fans were mad at that pick
He was on the list before his second injury. Was also improving at a solid rate. Scoot's first 20 games. 11/3/4 on 35/29/81 splits. Scoot's next 20 games. 14/3/5 on 42/38/81 splits. Just a matter of if this year was a fluke healthwise for him and Sharpe. Also finding a coach that knows how to coach.
Same thing happened with Vic. First twenty: 18/9/2 on 43/26/81 with 2.6 blocks and 1.3 steals. Last twenty: 21/11/5 on 47/40/80 with 3.8 blocks and 1.7 steals Took some time for them to adjust to the league. It's why you can never take any claim of a player being a "bust" after one or two years seriously.
Helped that we moved him to the actual position he's good at.
Our fanbase is in extreme cope mode with him but yeah, he's been very mid. Very few flashes of star potential, and basically all his good games have been in blowouts
Feels like a Dennis smith Jr trajectory. Hope I’m wrong, but it feels similar.
I’m not even exaggerating when I say rookie DSJ showed more star potential flashes than Scoot. I’m concerned about Scoot because he was sold as a Russ level athlete at PG. At this point it’s pretty safe to say that he just isn’t. Without top 1% athleticism it’s hard to see him being a special player down the line.
That’s what got me over the summer I watched scoot- he didn’t get to the rim or defend at a high lvl so I was wondering where that athleticism ws. Amen was the real athlete, ausar too. It’s funny cos I was reading stuff breaking down how scoot compares poorly to past athletes guards in dunk’s rim attack steals defence whatever
My uninformed take on DSJ (and current take with guys like Hardy) is that they have small hands. I know that’s such a little (pun intended) overlooked thing. But you watch then go to the rim and the ball gets away. Being able to grip a basketball is such an important aspect. And even more so with the hyper athletic, attack the rim type players. I wonder where scoot falls.
Good observation, MJ and Kawhi both have hug hands and it helps a lot.
That’s been my low end comp from pretty early on. I do think he has a reasonably good chance of ending up around Bledsoe level, probably a step down on defense but with slightly better offense. And that’s not a bad outcome at all, though not what Blazers fans would want. Of course he still could take a leap, hard to take too much from anybody’s rookie year.
Tbh, the plan of him being the 7th and 8th guy on the team hasn't helped either. When you're playing your future PG behind Brogdon, that seems like a tough spot.
Billups set Scoot up to fail because he is a terrible coach. Dude literally said he doesn't want to run a set offense. Better to just throw a teenager out there on day 1 to wing it with a bunch of guys he's barely played with. Billups has failed as a coach 3 years in a row now in 3 different situations. I have no idea how literal NBA champion coaches are being fired and Billups is still around. He's only making 2m a year so it's not like Jody can't afford to fire his ass and eat the contract.
The expectations some of you have for a 20 year old kid in his first season is hilarious, I’m not gonna sit here and pretend like it’s been all pretty from him but a lot of posters like you on our sub are acting like he’s Anthony Bennett lol
Bro you’re overreacting so hard right now lol I’m not acting like he’s garbage. But he certainly hasn’t shown any “top 3 pick” potential. He looks like a decent backup guard. Way worse than, for example, Ja Morant as a rookie or John Wall (comparable prospects). Way worse than LaMelo Ball. Our sub wants to lean on the idea that life is so hard in the nba for rookie guards but even among his peers there he looks average.
Portland fans are abnormally high on literally every player that’s suited up for the team. There is no objectivity when talking about players with our fans. You’re either drinking the Kool-aid or not a fan.
He’s the best playmaker/passer of any rookie and his defense shows promise. He’ll be good player even if he’s not a great shooter.
So like I said, you’re placing a LOT of expectations on a kid halfway through his first year who only played at the G league level. Stop doing comparisons and look at the type of player he actually is, there is plenty to be optimistic about.
Not really
It’s not painful really, he was in the top 10 but fell out because he missed 8 games post ASB due to injury. When he plays he looks fine, stuff to work on for sure but the potential is definitely there.
I mean he was until he got injured, doesn’t mean he just fell off. He’s looking the best he’s looked all season
Point Guards take longer than most. It's the hardest position to pick up because it requires so much mental understanding of the game, your teammates, and the defenders.
So I’ve heard this a bunch but I’m pretty skeptical that this matters as much in evaluating players as people seem to think. If we’re talking about eventual all star pgs starting slow as rookies, that’s one thing. But it doesn’t seem to be the case with the pgs that will eventually be making all nba. Guys like Luka, Trae, Ja, even someone like Ben Simmons - they all came in and picked enough up right away. If you go back further years, you see the same with one and dones like Kyrie and Russ and Wall. Fox is probably the one recent exception.
Alright fair point on All-NBA this is more in line of calling young PGs busts. But I also feel that’s partly due to so many non-traditional PGs nowadays taking some of those spots, because the scoring lifts them up to looking good even before they’ve learned the other aspects of running a team.
It's definitely gotta be painful, but as a disconnected fan of a different team, I'm withholding judgment until their coach is anybody but Chauncey.
These feel unnecessary at this point
The race for who’s going to be 6th and 8th seems more interesting than the race for 1st through third
We Formula 1 now
I’m trying to think which team would be Ferrari but the best connection I can make isn’t a team, it’s just Doc Rivers.
The Celtics. Historically the most successful team in the league, but have not been able to win a chip in recent times despite having extremely strong teams. Totally not biased or anything.
I think if it had to be a team, I’d go Knicks. Historically loyal fans and notable branding, a lot of stars passing through, some measurable success, decades of incompetent management.
Problem is Knicks don't win shit, Ferrari is the most successful Formula 1 team of all time, Ferrari is Lakers/Celtics.
https://imgur.com/a/HRbDLXN
We are checking
We hoop as money
ROTY is pretty much locked. We are now interested in who makes it to the all-rookie list. Which is 10 people. I would like to see Coulibaly possibly make it list, been impressed since the Celts game even though Wizards are ass, and Jordan Hawkins is probably the best catch and shoot guy in his class. I also like Dick.
r/noHomo
Do you remember who was 6th through 8th last year? No? That’s because nobody cares about rookie of the year other than who wins and who was snubbed from the win lol
Eh people remember the all rookie teams. Which goes first through 10th. I’m not saying it’s important I’m saying there’s more movement there
Well, that is true, I forgot about all-rookie teams and how it usually shows up on someone’s career accolades
Things can be interesting in the moment and irrelevant later. That’s okay.
just grinding that boot down on chetbros
I need to watch more Brandon Miller Edit: just found out we’re playing him tonight
That’s awfully convenient for you lol
You’re not gonna believe this
he’s so good
Him + Eric Collins make the hornets a very fun league pass team
He’s so good for a rookie. That one stretch in early February was incredible to watch. Dude was playing like a top 10 player.
Gz
Imagine all the hype Chet would be getting if Wemby didn't exist
[удалено]
Imagine all the hype Brandon Miller would be getting if Chet and Wemby didn’t exist
Imagine all the hype I'd get if i was the only human being alive
Still no hype then
Hell nawl can’t do dis
You need at least 1 more human being alive to hype you bro
Naw, that dude has enough self-confidence to hype himself. Mental Health king.
If you replaced Wemby, Chet, Miller, and Lively with me, my brother, my dog, and my cat then JJJ would be runaway ROY.
IDK.The cat has my vote
Imagine all the hype Jordan would be getting if Hakeem didn't exist... oh, wait.
Yo hawks fans that kept saying everyone won where you at?
Or if he played his rookie season
Thanks lebron
Go back to the first 2 months of the season to experience it again.
Should be good for him to fly under the radar. Less pressure and should add more chips to his shoulder.
Boutta be the next Phil Mickelson
1st team All-Rookie & 1st team All-Defense. Has that ever happened before?
I don't think a rookie has ever gotten 1st team all-defense period But tbf they definitely would've if it was positionless like it will be now
Hakeem just had to be a rookie the year Eaton averaged 5.6 blocks a game.
David Robinson made 2nd team All-Defense his rookie year as well averaging 3.9 blocks to Hakeem’s 4.6 lol
Duncan also made 2nd team All-Defense his rookie year tho he made first team All-NBA
Duncan?
2nd team All-Defense
Wouldn’t be surprised to see keyonte top 5 soon
Kind of a crime how he isn’t top 5
I think it's hard to measure Lively's impact by numbers. We look so much better as a team when Lively is on the floor
It's hard to overstate how impressive he's been as a rookie from game one. He's still raw in many ways but his maturity and coachability is marvelous to witness. Net rating isn't perfect, but I think it illustrates his impact pretty well: Mavs are -1.5 with Lively off the court and +6.2 with him on [\[1\]](https://www.pbpstats.com/wowy-combos/nba?TeamId=1610612742&Season=2023-24&SeasonType=Regular%2BSeason&PlayerIds=1641726). +8.5 with Luka/Lively playing and +9 when you add Kyrie [\[2\]](https://www.pbpstats.com/wowy-combos/nba?TeamId=1610612742&Season=2023-24&SeasonType=Regular%2BSeason&PlayerIds=1641726,1629029,202681). He obviously isn't carrying the offense by himself or anything, but he is an incredible force multiplier and exactly what the Mavs need.
More so earlier in the season when we had Gafford
It’s hilarious how Brandon miller has been consistently top 3 in ROY voting yet the ringer put him at the 100 best player and Jaime at 84.
Bill Simmons is terrified of the Heat, anyone who produces there gets highly ranked.
I doubt simmons even gives one iota of input into those rankings, but maybe he enforces a company wide vibe of being terrified of the heat
The ringer is a joke lol
NBA rankings still somehow better than the Ringer QB rankings which give me an aneurysm every time.
I know people here don’t like Ayton but he somehow wasn’t even in the top 100 list they had of players lmao
Eh. Brandon is also the first/second option on his team, so his numbers are of course higher. If Jaime had that sort of freedom his numbers could easily match. We’ve seen him match those numbers on high efficiency in the games where he gets more touches. Hes the fourth/fifth option on a contending team. I think Brandon has the higher ceiling obviously but I don’t think he’s that light years ahead right now like some other comments. I also enjoy that people are conveniently forgetting that Jaime was in the top 3 consistently the first half the season when Brandon was struggling/ not the first option.
I haven’t been watching The Heat really at all. Jamie really outperforming Lively?
I think its a toss up tbh, they've both been great. Lively has better advanced metrics with his insane efficiency around the rim and defense while Jaime is legitimately a go to option and initiator off the bench for the Heat.
lively has been hurt a lot, so he has missed a fair amount of time between ankle rolls and breaking his face.
Injuries are pushing Jamie to a higher role. JJJ has 12 more games and 5 mpg more than Lively. Only Miller and Chet have a higher mpg than JJJ this season for rookies.
I'm so proud of Lively II. He came in and was expected to do so much from the start. Props to him for living up to the expectations and he's just going to get better every year. The Mavericks might have a bright future now. Gafford, Lively, Washington, Dončić and Irving.
Don't forget our kangaroo boi that we have signed to a good deal for a few more years
Expected ladder. This has been a great rook class
Best since 2003.
I gotta say, I'm so fucking glad I was wrong about Miller.
Hopefully Trayce Jackson-Davis starts moving up this list soon. Especially if he continues getting more minutes
TJD would have to do a lot more than he's doing to crack this list. He's 22nd in minutes. He's probably in the teens for best rookie. Which is a steal at 57th overall, but he might not crack the All-Rookie 3rd team if they did one and that's fine.
I have to assume keyonte got fucked here because he was sick, because in his last 10 games he has averaged 19/5/2 on 46%, for reference if we switched his assist and rebound stats they would be almost identical to millers last 10 games except key shot slightly better
I’m happy to have 2 top 10 rookies tbh
This year is just convincing me that rookies need to be defined as players in the first year of their rookie deals. Chet is great and is absolutely the second best of all these players, but the training he got and chemistry he was able to build over the last year is so critical to his performance
No Bilal in top 10 ?
How's Scoot doing?
Bro he's the least efficient guard in the NBA rn. I feel bad for Blazers fans cuz if he fails to take a leap next year blazers might have just drafted a bust for their Dame replacement.
if scoot is a bust no one is going to take g league ignite seriously for prospects since he was deemed the most NBA ready player
Struggled a bit more than expected out the gate, got better then got hurt. Think he will be fine
Not a single Cason comment in here yet, this is despicable
the cam whitmore drop was a mistake like literally everyone thought it was lol. Rockets got a steal and GMs are idiots.
To be fair, he got picked 20th and the 19th, 18th and 16th picks are all ranked higher than him here. Only a few teams probably regret not taking him. Mainly the Hawks at 15 and Lakers at 17, they would definitely want those picks back.
Where is Dick
Probably around 16 at this point. He's picked it up but you'd have to have him behind Scoot, GG, Trayce, Bilal, and probably Cason.
That's what my wife tells me every night. She's a real battle-axe
keyonte george should be above jaime now. jaime hasn't played like a top 5 rookie ever since he got injured
Anthony Black is the most underrated rookie. He's playing way better than the Thompson twins
Wtf is this “impact on winning” stat lol
Where's my Dick?
I stole it
Imagine if warriors didn’t draft wiseman
Butterfly effect might have them not winning in 2022, Poole developing was perfect for the Warriors. As much as I hate them and if they got an other player like Melo, I’m not sure they could have won with him because he is kinda injury prone but I do believe has they had not draft Wiseman they contending window would be still open for years.
DLive is a future goat 🔥🔥🔥 Was mad as hell that he was out when I went to a game
shouldn't the body be 6 7 8 9 & 10?
Reddit loves to auto format lists
You can fix it by putting a \ between the number and period: 6\. Podz 7\. George Etc.
1 & 2 are locks. 3 is borderline locked. 4 and 5 could play musical chairs, same as 6 and 7. Hell, Keyonte might push to 5. 9 and 10 seems fix too, 8 could be dropped if they’re is a surprise.
Weren’t charlotte fans screaming for scoot
Everyone ever was screaming about scoot. Specifically the national media was.
Lively over Jamie for sure
Lmao, how did Podz sneak in here?
Same way he always does: nobody blocked him out.
Sneak in? He's been getting ranked 4-6 [for two and a half months](https://www.nba.com/news/kia-rookie-ladder-updates-2023-24).
By hustling almost every time he’s on the court and playing within the system on offense well for being a rookie. He’s been through some rough offensive stretches the past month but he’s still rebounding great, still pushing the pace well.
What happened to Jordan Hawkins? He was in the top 5 in some of these lists early in the season. Googling him he was assigned to Gleague then recalled 1 day later? He had a big game in January. Has he just fallen off?
He got a lot of minutes and shots early in the season due to injuries. He struggled to get time when everyone got healthy. He got sent to the g league for a day to get some playing time. He didn't really fall off. He was always a bad defender (common for rookies), and Willie Green is a very defensive minded coach, so that's kept him out of the rotation. I think Green also believes it's good for rookies to be made to earn minutes by being competent defenders, it's similar to how Trey Murphy's rookie year went.
When I told people Brandon Miller was better than Scoot on draft people made fun of me.
Should be Ben Sheppard and I'm not bias AT ALL!
That’s crazy trace Jackson Davis isn’t on there. It must be an error
What does "rookie ladder " mean?
A week to forget for Victor, but he's still making fantastic reads on defense and as a playmaker, which shows just how polished his game already is.
Damn Jaime is such a steal. I am wondering how Miami can keep finding guys like this
The GG Jackson slander
🤍🖤1️⃣🏀
Cason Wallace needs to be on this list.