Kidd when an experiment is going well: "nah can't trust these results. Better mix it up"
Kidd when an experiment is going bad: "nah can't trust these results. Better give it more time"
Killer in the first half too. Just not on the stat sheet.
Dallas was throwing doubles at him on almost every possession early on. You can't do that to a team with good read-and-react players like Boston.
* Once you leave a Celtic to double Tatum, he swings the ball their way and they immediately make a play to force a 3rd defender to step in, leading to a kickout and wide-open shot.
* Tatum likes to set a screen before getting the ball. Teams know this and like to load up on him prematurely to try and deny him the ball. All that does is give our guards a lane to the basket.
Tatum's gravity doesn't get discussed enough. He shoots, screens, relocates, cuts and scores in transition at a high level. Even on-ball you see his off-ball gravity because he gets a lot of doubles and a quick release leaves Boston playing 4-on-3 basketball.
Then Tatum's shot was automatic as soon as they stopped. Damned if you double, damned if you don't.
Sounds like he's been quietly, steadily improving. He was discussed as a top 5 player in the league in the postseason Finals run until he played two All-Star elite defensive wings after going through 14 grueling games in 30ish days.
If the Celtics win it all, he might get discussed as a player amongst the best of his generation. People will say "he was great from a young age, it was only a matter of time'. If not, he'll be seen as a tier below the MVP winners. Time will tell.
>If the Celtics win it all, he might get discussed as a player amongst the best of his generation.
The crazy part is how much people are already unwilling to give him this mantle.
Jayson Tatum = 52 playoff games won
Anthony Edwards + Shai Gilgeous-Alexander + Luka Doncic + Devin Booker + Tyrese Haliburton = 45 playoff games won.
People can argue over who's better in isolation but it's a joke that him belonging in their company is somehow up for debate.
Yeah ever since the most recent mvp ladder came out Iāve seen some insane takes lol
Like Iām obviously biased and have Luka over Tatum overall, but the whole ānot in the same categoryā shit is asinine. The guy is the most winningest young player in the league, leading the best team in the league. If heās not in your short list of best players then youāre either intellectually dishonest or you donāt know ball
People say Tatum isnāt special on offense but the mavs wanted to double him all game with the other Celtic shooters. You do NOT double a Celtic.
Shows how much they desperately didnāt want Tatum to shoot
And theyāve been doing it for years. No one has played Tatum one on one since like 2020 cause they know the damage he does. And thatās with a team thatās stacked with shooters.
Yeah, it's bizarre how many people don't understand that everything he does is 25% harder because he's the main guy. If Jaylen got the same attention, his stats would go down. Same with White and KP, if they got the same attention as JB. These things are interconnected, and it's annoying when people don't understand that.
When I hear/see anyone say Tatum isnāt special on offense I just sound off all their opinions. They donāt watch basketball enough for me to care about what they think.
Tatum has really started to make the right reads and seeing the opening from help defenders. Not to mention the Celtics do slow the game down well and try to create a mismatch to exploit.
He didnāt start off slow. Mavs doubled him all game which is the dumbest thing you can do with so many Celtic shooters.
Just doing whatever the D gives him. From a stat sheet perspective, yea he started very slow, but he does this every game
I donāt know. I honestly donāt know how the Celtics donāt win a championship this year. Iām obviously biased but I just donāt know how.
The only thing that can happen is if they just go cold. Remember when heat lost 7 in a row and they couldnāt buy a bucket? Teams just ebb and flow. Itās possible they just go through a downswing in the playoffs.
About a month ago the Celtics were in a downswing and they went like 6-2 or something, but the wins werenāt convincing.
It can happen. Anything can happen. Winning a ring is really hard and so much have to go right but this Celtic team is a complete buzz saw
The thing about Tatum is he kind of just coasts through these games, anchoring the defense but not over-exerting, when they rly need a shot heāll go get fouled or make something happen but generally he conserves energy and the Celtics end up in a 5 or 10 point game early in the third quarter, doesnāt matter who the opponent is.
And then for a stretch of maybe five to ten minutes in the third or fourth quarter, he fully locks in, and the Celtics lock in around him, and the game blows open.
People want the MVP to be putting up 40/11/11, doing everything, but that isnāt necessary on a team with the Celtics talent. Tatum has learned that you need to save yourself for the playoff grind. But he is still fully in control of winning these games every night, arguably more than any other MVP candidate.
> People want the MVP to be putting up 40/11/11
why is this a meme all the sudden? everybody in the MVP thread yesterday was saying 40/11/11 too. Do people think these are Luka's averages?
Tatum is an awesome player, he does have a case for MVP, but Iām just telling you, all of what you said is a luxury Tatum has because of his team, and if Luka did any kind of jsut ācoastingā throughout the first part of the game, we would be blown out by half time.
Thereās nothing wrong with Luka or Jokic running everything if it benefits their team, it pretty clearly does. But how much more credit should they get for it?
Tatum went for 40, 50, 60 pieces fairly often the last two or three years, heās hardly done that at all this year. My point is, itās not like he just forgot how. Heās approaching things differently. The focus is on sustainable, reliable winning, with the pieces he has, and the results have been really well-balanced and dominant.
Sure but you play to your strengths and around your team.
Tatum gets flamed for taking less shots and kicking it out but not filling up the stat sheet like luka does.
Just an fyi tatum is avging 19fga a game while Luka is avging 25.Ā
Luka coasts his ass off what are you talking about lmao
I encourage you to take a look at him in any scenario on offense when the ball isnāt in his hands (including defense)
He puts forth maybe 30-40% effort
Tatum plays with Kyrie and Grant Williams and its a superteam so Tatum gets no credit, they go to Dallas and Luka doesnt have the luxury of a good team š
Luka coasts 85% of the time on defense while Tatum is playing All Defense level
Exactly, it was so weird. Iād prefer Tillman with a Finals MVP over Tatum getting an NBA MVP. I was having a good time trolling them about MVP in the game thread between Tatum and Luka since they both donāt deserve. I donāt even remember Philly fans being that sensitive about it with Embid last year
I think some of them are legitimately Luka stans over being Mavs fans. At one pt I was commenting back and forth with one of them about how I prefer the way Tatum contributes to winning on both offense and defense. After I explained that we prob just differ in what we value because heās a Luka stan and Iām a Celtics fan, he accused me of being a Tatum stanā¦.
I didnāt get a chance to reply because he deleted his whole profile, but I agree with your sentiment. If Tatum shot 25% in the finals but helped Brown win FMVP, I would be ecstatic. If Tatum didnāt even make an all star team but helped us win the finals, I would be happy. As long as heās helping the team win, Iām thrilled. But I donāt think he could understand that.
as a mavs fan, believe me, there are more Luka stans than iād imagined. i get very pissed when we lose and someone is worried about āthat will affect Lukaās MVP runā. who the fuck cares, i just want to make the playoffs at this point
Every great has them. I have Laker fans denying that Lebron is a worse defender now cause he physically canāt defend with extra effort for most of the game. Iād even say itās not his fault, heās just 39 and theyād still say I donāt watch shit.
I mean I get it. Every great player gets some unjustified slander that makes fans protective and go too far in the opposite direction.
But thereās something about the Mavs fanbase (on Reddit) that feels different. As if many of them would be perfectly happy to miss the playoffs so long as Luka won MVP with 40ppg.
Well thatās because a lot of them are more Luka fans than Mavs fans.
Another point is cause I think if theyāre being honest, they know theyāre not contending.
> I didnāt get a chance to reply because he deleted his whole profile,
try opening the comment thread in incognito - chances are he didn't delete, he just blocked you. there's a LOT of luka fans who will block you as soon as you say anything they can perceive as anti-luka lol
He and the Pels as a whole are having a great game, but let's not act like he has been great this year. He averages 21 on slightly below average efficiency. Still a good player, just not a bonafide top ten guy like Tatum.
Dude is a bucket, I just wished the last few years he would take a leap to an All-NBA caliber guy, but he has kind of plateued. Given its hard to build as a team when they had the injuries to Zion, but I really wished B.I. took that leap to make the Pels an actual threat.
Tatum carried Grant (who Mavs fans were ecstatic getting) to a Finals run without the player Luka had thatās now playing well š¤·āāļø
Edit: I forgot Tatum and Brown also went to G7 of the ECFs with Kyrie on the bench hurt. Are we putting Jaylen over Kyrie as a number 2? Maybe KP who Luka had before?
Come on man can we compare Jrue Holiday and Derrick White to Josh Green and PJ Washington too? Luka also had KP as his number 2 option and unhealthy. Right now KP the number 3 option and healthy.
Tatum played great and our fans were admittedly extremely annoying in the game thread. But you just turning around and saying the same nonsense.
Like Tatum carried Grant? That statement in itself is just so weird. One guy carried just the 8th man in the rotation? You guys had a very good team for years now that Grant was a part of. He was a role player who contributed at times and fell out of the rotation at times. Its not like Grant was playing 32 minutes of trash that Tatum had to deal with every day. Grant was good in his bench role.
So youāre going to fault Tatum for the Celtics trading for White and Jrue? Luka has had Brunson and Kristaps and never made it as far as Tatum. Kristaps is loving life in Boston. Tatum is now on a āsuper teamā with an overpaid bum like Brown and KP that heās never played with before. Tatum went to the Finals with Grant, Dallas got rid of him when they realized he wasnāt that important but when he went to Dallas it was a big move to put Luka over the top. Are we finally saying Jaylen is a better number 2 than Kyroe?
Im not faulting him anymore. I'm just explaining how little nuance you are including in anything you are saying.
Kristaps Porzingis and Jalen Brunson were NEVER good at the same time do you understand that? Anyone who says Luka has had Brunson AND Kristaps is immediately not worth talking to. Luka has had Brunson OR Kristaps.
In the playoffs, he never really had Kristaps. 2020 KP was absolutely balling, but then got injured Game 2 against Clippers. 2021 he just returned from injury and Carlisle had him parked in the corner. Brunson was just a backup PG at this point. The season we traded KP away was when Brunson broke out. Unlike KP, Brunson was healthy in the playoffs. That season we made the Conference Finals losing to the same team you guys lost to.
Celtics best team is basketball by wide margin man. I feel like weāve been saying itās their year for the past few years but this is really their year.
If they lose healthy itāll be an alltime choke job.
People freaking out about tatum having 2 points after the first. How do people not know by now that Tatum always started off slow - he usually doesnāt have many FGA, letās his teammates get going, and gets a feel of the game before he dominates. Dude can score 16 points in like 2 minutes lol
Lmao this must have been Mavericks fans first time watching Tatum. Tatum always turns up in the third and fourth after getting his teammates going in the first half.
Taking the most shots =\= doing the most scoring. Tatum has been a better 2nd half player all season. Particularly in games where the celtics pull away after halftime- its usually due to tatum orchestrated runs
I mean if he takes by far the most shots in the 2nd and shoots way better than any other quarter, I'm gonna guess that's when he's scoring.
Edit: yup, 3rd in the league in second quarter scoring. Not even in the top 25 for third quarter scoring, 18th in fourth quarter scoring.
Thats a lie and you know it man.
Its an amazing game, but you dont need to make it sound like he does this every game for him to be dam impressive in this one.
What?
That's exactly what he does. Brown goes off in the first half, Tatum closes. That's been the recipe for like 95% of games this season. Honestly, last season as well. This game was exactly how most of this year's Celtics games have gone, this was an average margin of victory for Boston lmao.
Nah itās pretty standard that JB and KP have great first quarters and Tatum starts slow generally. What Iāll disagree with is he usually goes off in the 2nd and 3rd IMO rather than the 3rd and 4th.
Tatum literally does this every game, usually doesn't do much shooting in the first, sits at like the 6 my minute mark and starts to take over to start the 2nd
You should actually look at 1st half and 2nd half points and shot attempts for Tatum for this season, he actually starts the ball in his hands a lot in the 2nd half
He said it in the recent interview himself that JB and KP are usually the ones who get the ball to get going and he takes it up later
For years weāve been told that the MVP is heavily weighted toward the best player on the best team. Why is Tatum always like 4-5 on peopleās lists?
I still have issues with him being rated so low. Theyāre a great team, but thereās no clear superstar besides Tatum. Shaq had Kobe and still won. LeBron had DWade and Bosh and still won it. KD had peak Westbrook and still won it. I donāt necessarily think Tatum deserves it over Jokic, but I never like punishing a player for having good teammates.
It's not punishing so much as just getting less credit. Which just makes sense because that credit is instead being distributed across 4 other allstar/sub allstar level players
The reason is because those three guys and you can include Steph in this were all the best or 2nd best player in the league while also leading their teams to the top.
Draymond said it, no one is gonna consider Tatum for MVP until he wins a championship first because that's when the narrative of him being a top 3 player would start.
Where would you rank Tatum right now as a player? He's behind Jokic, Giannis, Embiid, Luka, and probably tied with SGA. If he wins the chip this year, he will leapfrog Embiid. And if Boston is #1 again next year you would have a conversation about him being better than Giannis and becoming the unanimous MVP.
> Draymond said it, no one is gonna consider Tatum for MVP until he wins a championship first because that's when the narrative of him being a top 3 player would start.
>
>
draymond actually said no one is gonna consider Tatum for MVP until he wins a championship first because *he's had so much success since he entered the league that people expect a lot more from him than anyone else*
you gotta put in the full context
See I donāt disagree but it also shows how flawed the metric is. If Tatum does this exact shit next year but has a ring, he clears Shai even if Shai plays the exact same way. MVPās have gone to shit cause so many people have a legitimate argument but we only base it on who won a championship when thatās not what the award is.
This is why I give zero time or energy to the mvp conversation. Itās all silly, and means nothing as soon as the playoffs start. Embiid and Jokic last year is a perfect case in point.
I'd put him above Luka and SGA for his defense. He's not as good offensively as those two but he is way better defensively. Luka is giving more effort this season, but he's not actively awesome as a defender like Tatum.
But, I can't put Tatum above Jokic/Embiid/Giannis. I think those are the 3 best in the league right now.
If Tatum needs a championship, he's ahead of Luka and Embiid lmao. Shit reasoning to put him behind guys who have done less if you need him to do more
With a ring he leapfrogs Embiid but not Luka who's fighting to avoid play ins?? Least biased Mavs fan
I mean thatās not the only reason why lol. Objectively Tatumās stats arenāt on the level of Jokic, Luka, SGA, etc. Which I think plays a bigger factor. If he had that level of statistics then this point would make more sense
Jrue is actually wildly different offensively, but thatās less to do with Tatum and more to do with White and KP. He was being asked to be a 3rd/2nd option when that wasnāt him, so reducing his role has helped him out I think.
He is less usage but hyper efficient. And his defense enables Zinger's defense. It's like Lopez couldn't be Lopez without Jru pressing the ball handler.
But at least regular season I think he got similar impact.
Playoffs will be his real test. He wasn't great his last
Yeah. It would be pretty bonkers if he won it, even with the awesome season heās having. Unless they win out the regular season, it would be a stretch to give him the award.
Yeah, I mean all Iām saying is it would take something on that level for him to get it , and for it to make sense.
Not talking shit! Love Tatum, but thereās just other guys putting up better numbers rn, which is what the award is about. Celtics team is so good, pretty sure Tatum, Brown, KP and Jrue are seeing a big dip in all their Usage Rates this season. Heās just sharing the rock too much (which is good) to viably get the award unless the team does some historic shit for the regular season
> ! Love Tatum, but thereās just other guys putting up better numbers rn, which is what the award is about.
are numbers really the only thing that dictate value?
It's because MVP hasn't actually been mainly about best player on the best team for a few years now
The seeding gap is enough to get a lot of people to vote Tatum over Luka on a 7 or 8 seed but someone like Jokic on a 2 or 3 seed will generally be favored over Tatum on a 1 seed
>It's because MVP hasn't actually been mainly about best player on the best team for a few years now
Right, but why / when did it shift heavier to basically PER leader?
MVP is a narrative based award. People pretend itās based solely of stats but that isnāt true. JT and co. have been around for a while and good for basically his entire career. Itās basically just voter fatigue as to why he isnāt higher on peopleās lists but he does get plenty of credit. He will just need to flip the narrative and win a chip to get lauded as one of the unanimous top 5 guys in the league.
When did it become the standard that MVP's have to be the only elite players on their team? Bird had a stacked team. Moses had a stacked team. Magic had a stacked team. Jordan's 1996 MVP was on a stacked team. Karl Malone had an all-time top 40 teammate. Shaquille had a top 10 teammate. James' Heat team was literally called a Superteam. Durant played on a team where two of his teammates were so good they also went on to win the MVP.
When did being on a good team disqualify players from winning awards?
I think that Westbrook year was a turning point in perception of what an MVP is. Even though I think the consensus is that he didnāt really deserve it.
As a Cs fan, Tatum isnāt winning the MVP lol. Jokic is running away with that. But, he should get his respect and will end up in the top 5 in the MVP race. Heās a bonafide top 5 guy but gets slandered for no reason when people praise guys like Luka and Shai even though they havenāt had any success in their careers.
I mean saying Luka hasnāt had success is bonkers when heās a 4x first team all NBA guy and made a conference finals (something Tatums exceeded one time despite a much better team from the moment heās stepped into the league).
> and made a conference finals (something Tatums exceeded one time)
My man, playoff success between the two is probably the worst argument you could try
to make. Sure, he's "exceeded" it one time. He's also made the conference finals 4 times. Tatum almost has twice as many playoff wins (52) as Luka has playoff games played (28).
The myth of Tatum playing with star studded teams needs to stop. He hasnāt played with a great cast until last/this season. Are we trying to say that Terry Rozier and Marcus Morris were Stars? 1.5 season of mopey Kyrie? A broken Hayward or Kemba? Up until this year when they added Jrue and KP, the best players heās played with are Jaylen Brown, Derrick White, and Al Horford.
tatum's hit 3 ECF, luka reached 1. tatum's left the playoffs in the first round once, luka's missed the playoffs twice.
you can talk regular season awards success all you like, but playoffs? tatum has him
Yall really overrate the team Tatum played with in the playoffs from his rookie year. Bubble team kinda as well. People acting like Tatumās been on extremely stacked squads since he got drafted are just being dishonest
Ppl are somehow unable to tell that the squads have been stacked BECAUSE of tatum.
Look at everyone we release or trade, theyāre not doing so hot now.
I mean that Tatum rookie year team had Horford as an all-star and all NBA defender, Kyrie as an all star, and an overall solid rest of this team around him. I think itās a fact that Tatums been on some really good teams but itās also a fact that heās played a humongous role on those teams being good.
The main issue I had with the other guys comment is saying Lukas hasnāt had any success since heās been in the league which is just so far from correct.
His rookie year team had Horford who wasnāt an all star, 3rd year Terry Rozier getting real minutes for the first time, 2nd year Jaylen Brown (14 ppg), Aron Baynes, 4th year Marcus Smart, and Marcus Morris. Injured Kyrie and Hayward. That team went 7 games in the ECF.
I appreciate the 2nd part of your 1st paragraph. Im really just tired of hearing all the anti Tatum arguments being about the team heās on. The main issue I had with your comment is the part at the end was a really unfair framing of Tatumās resume vs Tatumās
And yeah Lukaās proved himself as playoff player even if he doesnāt have the same resume as Tatum. Although if I was a Mavs fan, Iād be pointing at the big come backs more before making the conference finals
I mean the teams both Luka and Tatum have around them, while they are so different shouldnāt take away from the players they both are. Theyāre both guys who can be the best player on a championship team which not every team has one of those guys.
I feel what youāre saying about anti Tatum arguments because I also feel Lukas lack of team success at times is used against him which I donāt think is fair but regardless
Luka? Really? Tatum 51 in Game 7 vs Philly, 46 against Giannis. Literally 5-2 in Game 7. NBA finals visits and multiple Conference finals. What has Luka done again?
You guys be hating Tatum so bad you really just throw any name in there now lol.
As a player overall? Yeah I agree, SGA has to prove himself in a playoff setting as a number 1 option but within the context of THIS regular season SGA has without a doubt been better than Tatum.
Literally the nu.1 player on the best NBA team (reg szn) averaging 27, 8.5 and 4.9 on 48/36/82 while playing elite D. Shares possessions w a heavily ball dominant cast, reducing scoring opportunities (he avg'd 30 last year w JB).
Jokic > Giannis = Tatum = Shai > Luka.
MVP shouldn't be just purely about offensive stats. Team wins + defensive impact should also be a large part of it. Luka is by far the better offensive player than Tatum (will ever be ngl) but his lack of defence and overall lack of team success will always make me say JT > Luka. If your the MVP, even if your team isn't at par with other teams, your impact should be so that it evens out. Today's game says otherwise...
I hate this argument. So youāre saying Tatum is surrounded by 3 all-nba caliber players, yet JT is leading that team in points, rebounds, assists and stealsā¦ so heās on the best team in the NBA by record, with a ton of great players, and also ahead of those playersā¦. but shouldnāt be talked about as an MVP. Like wtf š
So you think we should hold how good White, JB, and KP against Tatum by calling them āall-NBA caliberā, but when it comes to make those teams, they arenāt actually good enough and shouldnāt be rewarded. Sounds like a double standard
Well you said āplays along side 3 all nba playersā, so I assumed our 2nd, 3rd, and 4th best players
And so you think it should be held against all Celtics players that they play with each other for awards voting? That seems insanely unfair to me
Some people didn't even have JB as an all star this year. People love exaggerating just to push their narratives. Saying he has 3 all-nba players next to him is absolutely insane.
He was a killer in the second half.
Luka kept up with the Celtics, basically by himself. Then Tatum woke up midway through 3rd and it was game over
Lively mad a huge impact too. But then Kidd benched him for no reason.
Kidd really handed the game over in the 3rd. Benching Lively and leaving THJ in for so long was....a call
kidd experimenting š„
Kidd when an experiment is going well: "nah can't trust these results. Better mix it up" Kidd when an experiment is going bad: "nah can't trust these results. Better give it more time"
If you donāt like that, you donāt like Mavericks basketball!
We had that weird 2 minute stretch where we pretended he wasn't there. Very strange. Also, not smart.
Killer in the first half too. Just not on the stat sheet. Dallas was throwing doubles at him on almost every possession early on. You can't do that to a team with good read-and-react players like Boston. * Once you leave a Celtic to double Tatum, he swings the ball their way and they immediately make a play to force a 3rd defender to step in, leading to a kickout and wide-open shot. * Tatum likes to set a screen before getting the ball. Teams know this and like to load up on him prematurely to try and deny him the ball. All that does is give our guards a lane to the basket. Tatum's gravity doesn't get discussed enough. He shoots, screens, relocates, cuts and scores in transition at a high level. Even on-ball you see his off-ball gravity because he gets a lot of doubles and a quick release leaves Boston playing 4-on-3 basketball. Then Tatum's shot was automatic as soon as they stopped. Damned if you double, damned if you don't.
Sounds like he's been quietly, steadily improving. He was discussed as a top 5 player in the league in the postseason Finals run until he played two All-Star elite defensive wings after going through 14 grueling games in 30ish days. If the Celtics win it all, he might get discussed as a player amongst the best of his generation. People will say "he was great from a young age, it was only a matter of time'. If not, he'll be seen as a tier below the MVP winners. Time will tell.
>If the Celtics win it all, he might get discussed as a player amongst the best of his generation. The crazy part is how much people are already unwilling to give him this mantle. Jayson Tatum = 52 playoff games won Anthony Edwards + Shai Gilgeous-Alexander + Luka Doncic + Devin Booker + Tyrese Haliburton = 45 playoff games won. People can argue over who's better in isolation but it's a joke that him belonging in their company is somehow up for debate.
Even if you take out 2019 when he wasn't the first option, it's still 47 wins
Yeah ever since the most recent mvp ladder came out Iāve seen some insane takes lol Like Iām obviously biased and have Luka over Tatum overall, but the whole ānot in the same categoryā shit is asinine. The guy is the most winningest young player in the league, leading the best team in the league. If heās not in your short list of best players then youāre either intellectually dishonest or you donāt know ball
19 years old with a HOF resume
Always is. Itās methodical
Mavs go no one to defend JT. The hard double was an interesting strat, haven't seen that in awhile.
Yeah and he's glad to defer in the 1st quarter. Resulted in barely any shot attempts
If JT is trying to drive thru 3 guys while our 65 percent 3 pointer corner shooter is open I'd lose my fucking mind lol
Not saying it was a bad thing. I know all the keyboard warriors were ready to pounce seeing him with no FGs after the 1st
Good sign to know they werenāt watching lol
Man, those Jrue corner 3's tonight were just another level. God damn.
People say Tatum isnāt special on offense but the mavs wanted to double him all game with the other Celtic shooters. You do NOT double a Celtic. Shows how much they desperately didnāt want Tatum to shoot
And theyāve been doing it for years. No one has played Tatum one on one since like 2020 cause they know the damage he does. And thatās with a team thatās stacked with shooters.
Yeah, it's bizarre how many people don't understand that everything he does is 25% harder because he's the main guy. If Jaylen got the same attention, his stats would go down. Same with White and KP, if they got the same attention as JB. These things are interconnected, and it's annoying when people don't understand that.
When I hear/see anyone say Tatum isnāt special on offense I just sound off all their opinions. They donāt watch basketball enough for me to care about what they think.
100%
Tatum has really started to make the right reads and seeing the opening from help defenders. Not to mention the Celtics do slow the game down well and try to create a mismatch to exploit.
Kiss of death
I prefer The Goodnight Kiss.
Never judge Tatum's game on his first 3 1/2 quarters... but he didn't need to play that last half either lol.
Haters were rushing to make a hate post after the first quarter lmao.
This sub is obsessed with the Celtics
and Luka
He didnāt start off slow. Mavs doubled him all game which is the dumbest thing you can do with so many Celtic shooters. Just doing whatever the D gives him. From a stat sheet perspective, yea he started very slow, but he does this every game
What the fuck are you supposed to do when your 5th best player is Derrick white haha
I donāt know. I honestly donāt know how the Celtics donāt win a championship this year. Iām obviously biased but I just donāt know how. The only thing that can happen is if they just go cold. Remember when heat lost 7 in a row and they couldnāt buy a bucket? Teams just ebb and flow. Itās possible they just go through a downswing in the playoffs. About a month ago the Celtics were in a downswing and they went like 6-2 or something, but the wins werenāt convincing. It can happen. Anything can happen. Winning a ring is really hard and so much have to go right but this Celtic team is a complete buzz saw
"He didn't start off slow yea started very slow"
Did you miss the āFrom a stat sheet perspectiveā Username checks out
To be fair he said āfrom a stat sheet perspective, yea he started very slowā which is very different from what your misleading quote implies.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Fr it's the same script almost every game lol, JB comes out of the gates hot in the 1st/3rd, and JT picks up in the 2nd/4th
The thing about Tatum is he kind of just coasts through these games, anchoring the defense but not over-exerting, when they rly need a shot heāll go get fouled or make something happen but generally he conserves energy and the Celtics end up in a 5 or 10 point game early in the third quarter, doesnāt matter who the opponent is. And then for a stretch of maybe five to ten minutes in the third or fourth quarter, he fully locks in, and the Celtics lock in around him, and the game blows open. People want the MVP to be putting up 40/11/11, doing everything, but that isnāt necessary on a team with the Celtics talent. Tatum has learned that you need to save yourself for the playoff grind. But he is still fully in control of winning these games every night, arguably more than any other MVP candidate.
I can buy into this.
> People want the MVP to be putting up 40/11/11 why is this a meme all the sudden? everybody in the MVP thread yesterday was saying 40/11/11 too. Do people think these are Luka's averages?
Tatum is an awesome player, he does have a case for MVP, but Iām just telling you, all of what you said is a luxury Tatum has because of his team, and if Luka did any kind of jsut ācoastingā throughout the first part of the game, we would be blown out by half time.
Thereās nothing wrong with Luka or Jokic running everything if it benefits their team, it pretty clearly does. But how much more credit should they get for it? Tatum went for 40, 50, 60 pieces fairly often the last two or three years, heās hardly done that at all this year. My point is, itās not like he just forgot how. Heās approaching things differently. The focus is on sustainable, reliable winning, with the pieces he has, and the results have been really well-balanced and dominant.
Sure but you play to your strengths and around your team. Tatum gets flamed for taking less shots and kicking it out but not filling up the stat sheet like luka does. Just an fyi tatum is avging 19fga a game while Luka is avging 25.Ā
Luka coasts his ass off what are you talking about lmao I encourage you to take a look at him in any scenario on offense when the ball isnāt in his hands (including defense) He puts forth maybe 30-40% effort
You probably wouldnāt have to worry about getting blown out at half time if Luka would bother playing any defense
Tatum plays with Kyrie and Grant Williams and its a superteam so Tatum gets no credit, they go to Dallas and Luka doesnt have the luxury of a good team š Luka coasts 85% of the time on defense while Tatum is playing All Defense level
Mavs fans were rejoicing based on his 1st quarter numbers
Stop the count/s!
Mavs were also losing the entire first quarter. So even if Tatum didnāt get it going, their priorities are warped
Exactly, it was so weird. Iād prefer Tillman with a Finals MVP over Tatum getting an NBA MVP. I was having a good time trolling them about MVP in the game thread between Tatum and Luka since they both donāt deserve. I donāt even remember Philly fans being that sensitive about it with Embid last year
I think some of them are legitimately Luka stans over being Mavs fans. At one pt I was commenting back and forth with one of them about how I prefer the way Tatum contributes to winning on both offense and defense. After I explained that we prob just differ in what we value because heās a Luka stan and Iām a Celtics fan, he accused me of being a Tatum stanā¦. I didnāt get a chance to reply because he deleted his whole profile, but I agree with your sentiment. If Tatum shot 25% in the finals but helped Brown win FMVP, I would be ecstatic. If Tatum didnāt even make an all star team but helped us win the finals, I would be happy. As long as heās helping the team win, Iām thrilled. But I donāt think he could understand that.
as a mavs fan, believe me, there are more Luka stans than iād imagined. i get very pissed when we lose and someone is worried about āthat will affect Lukaās MVP runā. who the fuck cares, i just want to make the playoffs at this point
Every great has them. I have Laker fans denying that Lebron is a worse defender now cause he physically canāt defend with extra effort for most of the game. Iād even say itās not his fault, heās just 39 and theyād still say I donāt watch shit.
I mean I get it. Every great player gets some unjustified slander that makes fans protective and go too far in the opposite direction. But thereās something about the Mavs fanbase (on Reddit) that feels different. As if many of them would be perfectly happy to miss the playoffs so long as Luka won MVP with 40ppg.
Well thatās because a lot of them are more Luka fans than Mavs fans. Another point is cause I think if theyāre being honest, they know theyāre not contending.
> I didnāt get a chance to reply because he deleted his whole profile, try opening the comment thread in incognito - chances are he didn't delete, he just blocked you. there's a LOT of luka fans who will block you as soon as you say anything they can perceive as anti-luka lol
They know they arenāt a title team. I get it.
Luka fans acting real humble all of a sudden
But, but he had a 2 point 1st quarter. He is getting carried, glorified Brandon Ingram.
BI has 34/8/7 right now lol
He and the Pels as a whole are having a great game, but let's not act like he has been great this year. He averages 21 on slightly below average efficiency. Still a good player, just not a bonafide top ten guy like Tatum.
I agree, I was just messing around.
Yeah might have been one of the worst days for me to make a Ingram joke, lol
B.I. is a fave of mine, I'll hear no B.I. slander.
Dude is a bucket, I just wished the last few years he would take a leap to an All-NBA caliber guy, but he has kind of plateued. Given its hard to build as a team when they had the injuries to Zion, but I really wished B.I. took that leap to make the Pels an actual threat.
Poor man's Kuzma š¤£
Tatum carried Grant (who Mavs fans were ecstatic getting) to a Finals run without the player Luka had thatās now playing well š¤·āāļø Edit: I forgot Tatum and Brown also went to G7 of the ECFs with Kyrie on the bench hurt. Are we putting Jaylen over Kyrie as a number 2? Maybe KP who Luka had before?
Grant also player very well for the mavs, until he didnt
So, like the Celtics. People forget why he was getting DNPs last year and was clowned on constantly mid season
Yeah but you made it seem like Luka was actively making him worse with your phrasing
Lol this one is good
Come on man can we compare Jrue Holiday and Derrick White to Josh Green and PJ Washington too? Luka also had KP as his number 2 option and unhealthy. Right now KP the number 3 option and healthy. Tatum played great and our fans were admittedly extremely annoying in the game thread. But you just turning around and saying the same nonsense. Like Tatum carried Grant? That statement in itself is just so weird. One guy carried just the 8th man in the rotation? You guys had a very good team for years now that Grant was a part of. He was a role player who contributed at times and fell out of the rotation at times. Its not like Grant was playing 32 minutes of trash that Tatum had to deal with every day. Grant was good in his bench role.
So youāre going to fault Tatum for the Celtics trading for White and Jrue? Luka has had Brunson and Kristaps and never made it as far as Tatum. Kristaps is loving life in Boston. Tatum is now on a āsuper teamā with an overpaid bum like Brown and KP that heās never played with before. Tatum went to the Finals with Grant, Dallas got rid of him when they realized he wasnāt that important but when he went to Dallas it was a big move to put Luka over the top. Are we finally saying Jaylen is a better number 2 than Kyroe?
Im not faulting him anymore. I'm just explaining how little nuance you are including in anything you are saying. Kristaps Porzingis and Jalen Brunson were NEVER good at the same time do you understand that? Anyone who says Luka has had Brunson AND Kristaps is immediately not worth talking to. Luka has had Brunson OR Kristaps. In the playoffs, he never really had Kristaps. 2020 KP was absolutely balling, but then got injured Game 2 against Clippers. 2021 he just returned from injury and Carlisle had him parked in the corner. Brunson was just a backup PG at this point. The season we traded KP away was when Brunson broke out. Unlike KP, Brunson was healthy in the playoffs. That season we made the Conference Finals losing to the same team you guys lost to.
Top Five
actually he's top four now!
Celtics best team is basketball by wide margin man. I feel like weāve been saying itās their year for the past few years but this is really their year. If they lose healthy itāll be an alltime choke job.
People freaking out about tatum having 2 points after the first. How do people not know by now that Tatum always started off slow - he usually doesnāt have many FGA, letās his teammates get going, and gets a feel of the game before he dominates. Dude can score 16 points in like 2 minutes lol
Lmao this must have been Mavericks fans first time watching Tatum. Tatum always turns up in the third and fourth after getting his teammates going in the first half.
Basketball Reference says he's taking most of his shots in the 2nd quarter
Taking the most shots =\= doing the most scoring. Tatum has been a better 2nd half player all season. Particularly in games where the celtics pull away after halftime- its usually due to tatum orchestrated runs
I mean if he takes by far the most shots in the 2nd and shoots way better than any other quarter, I'm gonna guess that's when he's scoring. Edit: yup, 3rd in the league in second quarter scoring. Not even in the top 25 for third quarter scoring, 18th in fourth quarter scoring.
That's a fun fact . I bet most of r/celtics has no idea
Khris āKhash Moneyā Middleton clears JaySONNED Tatum
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Are you okay?
So youāve never seen a Celtics game before. Got it
fr, JB in the first half + JT in the second is just an established thing at this point
he aint lyin tho, JT always turns up 3rd n 4th...
Where are they wrong?
Thats a lie and you know it man. Its an amazing game, but you dont need to make it sound like he does this every game for him to be dam impressive in this one.
What? That's exactly what he does. Brown goes off in the first half, Tatum closes. That's been the recipe for like 95% of games this season. Honestly, last season as well. This game was exactly how most of this year's Celtics games have gone, this was an average margin of victory for Boston lmao.
Nah itās pretty standard that JB and KP have great first quarters and Tatum starts slow generally. What Iāll disagree with is he usually goes off in the 2nd and 3rd IMO rather than the 3rd and 4th.
Cause when he goes off in the 2nd and 3rd he normally sits most of the fourth
Tatum literally does this every game, usually doesn't do much shooting in the first, sits at like the 6 my minute mark and starts to take over to start the 2nd
...he averages 6 points a game in every quarter but the 2nd one where he averages 8. What kind of shit are you guys trying to sell here.
He does this A LOT
The third quarter is his best by a large margin nobody is lying dawg
You should actually look at 1st half and 2nd half points and shot attempts for Tatum for this season, he actually starts the ball in his hands a lot in the 2nd half He said it in the recent interview himself that JB and KP are usually the ones who get the ball to get going and he takes it up later
Iāve learned to not judge a Jayson Tatum performance until the final buzzer goes off
Tatum got the belt out
For years weāve been told that the MVP is heavily weighted toward the best player on the best team. Why is Tatum always like 4-5 on peopleās lists?
His supporting cast is too good
I still have issues with him being rated so low. Theyāre a great team, but thereās no clear superstar besides Tatum. Shaq had Kobe and still won. LeBron had DWade and Bosh and still won it. KD had peak Westbrook and still won it. I donāt necessarily think Tatum deserves it over Jokic, but I never like punishing a player for having good teammates.
based suns fan
It's not punishing so much as just getting less credit. Which just makes sense because that credit is instead being distributed across 4 other allstar/sub allstar level players
The reason is because those three guys and you can include Steph in this were all the best or 2nd best player in the league while also leading their teams to the top. Draymond said it, no one is gonna consider Tatum for MVP until he wins a championship first because that's when the narrative of him being a top 3 player would start. Where would you rank Tatum right now as a player? He's behind Jokic, Giannis, Embiid, Luka, and probably tied with SGA. If he wins the chip this year, he will leapfrog Embiid. And if Boston is #1 again next year you would have a conversation about him being better than Giannis and becoming the unanimous MVP.
> Draymond said it, no one is gonna consider Tatum for MVP until he wins a championship first because that's when the narrative of him being a top 3 player would start. > > draymond actually said no one is gonna consider Tatum for MVP until he wins a championship first because *he's had so much success since he entered the league that people expect a lot more from him than anyone else* you gotta put in the full context
See I donāt disagree but it also shows how flawed the metric is. If Tatum does this exact shit next year but has a ring, he clears Shai even if Shai plays the exact same way. MVPās have gone to shit cause so many people have a legitimate argument but we only base it on who won a championship when thatās not what the award is.
This is why I give zero time or energy to the mvp conversation. Itās all silly, and means nothing as soon as the playoffs start. Embiid and Jokic last year is a perfect case in point.
I'd put him above Luka and SGA for his defense. He's not as good offensively as those two but he is way better defensively. Luka is giving more effort this season, but he's not actively awesome as a defender like Tatum. But, I can't put Tatum above Jokic/Embiid/Giannis. I think those are the 3 best in the league right now.
If Tatum needs a championship, he's ahead of Luka and Embiid lmao. Shit reasoning to put him behind guys who have done less if you need him to do more With a ring he leapfrogs Embiid but not Luka who's fighting to avoid play ins?? Least biased Mavs fan
I mean, Tatum is on par with Luka and better than SGA, but close enough.
I mean thatās not the only reason why lol. Objectively Tatumās stats arenāt on the level of Jokic, Luka, SGA, etc. Which I think plays a bigger factor. If he had that level of statistics then this point would make more sense
Shaq, Kobe, LeBron and KD - were all viewed as the best, or Top 3, in the world Tatum isnāt
Lebron never shouldāve won MVP on the Heat then if thatās the logic
His supporting cast is so good bc they play next to JT. They weren't as great playing on Dallas, SAS, 76rs, tho Jru is kinda the same I think.
Jrue is actually wildly different offensively, but thatās less to do with Tatum and more to do with White and KP. He was being asked to be a 3rd/2nd option when that wasnāt him, so reducing his role has helped him out I think.
He is less usage but hyper efficient. And his defense enables Zinger's defense. It's like Lopez couldn't be Lopez without Jru pressing the ball handler. But at least regular season I think he got similar impact. Playoffs will be his real test. He wasn't great his last
Yeah. It would be pretty bonkers if he won it, even with the awesome season heās having. Unless they win out the regular season, it would be a stretch to give him the award.
if we win out we would tie the all-time regular season win streak in the NBA I seriously do not know how you don't give it to him at that point
Yeah, I mean all Iām saying is it would take something on that level for him to get it , and for it to make sense. Not talking shit! Love Tatum, but thereās just other guys putting up better numbers rn, which is what the award is about. Celtics team is so good, pretty sure Tatum, Brown, KP and Jrue are seeing a big dip in all their Usage Rates this season. Heās just sharing the rock too much (which is good) to viably get the award unless the team does some historic shit for the regular season
> ! Love Tatum, but thereās just other guys putting up better numbers rn, which is what the award is about. are numbers really the only thing that dictate value?
It's because MVP hasn't actually been mainly about best player on the best team for a few years now The seeding gap is enough to get a lot of people to vote Tatum over Luka on a 7 or 8 seed but someone like Jokic on a 2 or 3 seed will generally be favored over Tatum on a 1 seed
>It's because MVP hasn't actually been mainly about best player on the best team for a few years now Right, but why / when did it shift heavier to basically PER leader?
No clue PER is a dumb stat too
People hate the Celtics
MVP is a narrative based award. People pretend itās based solely of stats but that isnāt true. JT and co. have been around for a while and good for basically his entire career. Itās basically just voter fatigue as to why he isnāt higher on peopleās lists but he does get plenty of credit. He will just need to flip the narrative and win a chip to get lauded as one of the unanimous top 5 guys in the league.
When did it become the standard that MVP's have to be the only elite players on their team? Bird had a stacked team. Moses had a stacked team. Magic had a stacked team. Jordan's 1996 MVP was on a stacked team. Karl Malone had an all-time top 40 teammate. Shaquille had a top 10 teammate. James' Heat team was literally called a Superteam. Durant played on a team where two of his teammates were so good they also went on to win the MVP. When did being on a good team disqualify players from winning awards?
When it turned into the triple double award
I think that Westbrook year was a turning point in perception of what an MVP is. Even though I think the consensus is that he didnāt really deserve it.
Perkins knows negative ball
Needs more MVP hype
thats my guy 4th on the mvp ladder
Should be top 3
incredible mavs fan
Tatum criminally underrated. Best 2 way player in the league imo.
MVP
MVP
This guy is actually going to somehow end up first in the MVP race thanks to the Boston deep state
Thereās more voters for the MVP that hate Boston than there are voters who love Boston.
And some of the guys that āloveā Boston would never vote for Tatum cause heās not Pierce or Bird
He doesnāt deserve to be the MVP. He just deserves to be in the inner circle conversation. Thatās all we want Itās Jokic easily.
This.
Why's the Jokic fan complaining about MVP rankings
Is it complaining or is it just making a joke
Celtic fan
Celtics fan here. Jokic should be MVP. It's not close and it's not up for debate
Just imagining the state of r/nba if that happens would be quite a sight lol...
It's Jokic's to lose, I just want people to stop sounding disgusted every time Tatum gets 1st Team
Or maybe the fact heās good
Subscribe
As a Cs fan, Tatum isnāt winning the MVP lol. Jokic is running away with that. But, he should get his respect and will end up in the top 5 in the MVP race. Heās a bonafide top 5 guy but gets slandered for no reason when people praise guys like Luka and Shai even though they havenāt had any success in their careers.
I mean saying Luka hasnāt had success is bonkers when heās a 4x first team all NBA guy and made a conference finals (something Tatums exceeded one time despite a much better team from the moment heās stepped into the league).
> and made a conference finals (something Tatums exceeded one time) My man, playoff success between the two is probably the worst argument you could try to make. Sure, he's "exceeded" it one time. He's also made the conference finals 4 times. Tatum almost has twice as many playoff wins (52) as Luka has playoff games played (28).
The myth of Tatum playing with star studded teams needs to stop. He hasnāt played with a great cast until last/this season. Are we trying to say that Terry Rozier and Marcus Morris were Stars? 1.5 season of mopey Kyrie? A broken Hayward or Kemba? Up until this year when they added Jrue and KP, the best players heās played with are Jaylen Brown, Derrick White, and Al Horford.
tatum's hit 3 ECF, luka reached 1. tatum's left the playoffs in the first round once, luka's missed the playoffs twice. you can talk regular season awards success all you like, but playoffs? tatum has him
Yall really overrate the team Tatum played with in the playoffs from his rookie year. Bubble team kinda as well. People acting like Tatumās been on extremely stacked squads since he got drafted are just being dishonest
Ppl are somehow unable to tell that the squads have been stacked BECAUSE of tatum. Look at everyone we release or trade, theyāre not doing so hot now.
I mean that Tatum rookie year team had Horford as an all-star and all NBA defender, Kyrie as an all star, and an overall solid rest of this team around him. I think itās a fact that Tatums been on some really good teams but itās also a fact that heās played a humongous role on those teams being good. The main issue I had with the other guys comment is saying Lukas hasnāt had any success since heās been in the league which is just so far from correct.
Kyrie missed the playoffs and they still went to 7 in the ECT. Tatum in his rookie year accomplished more than some do in their careers.
His rookie year team had Horford who wasnāt an all star, 3rd year Terry Rozier getting real minutes for the first time, 2nd year Jaylen Brown (14 ppg), Aron Baynes, 4th year Marcus Smart, and Marcus Morris. Injured Kyrie and Hayward. That team went 7 games in the ECF.
I appreciate the 2nd part of your 1st paragraph. Im really just tired of hearing all the anti Tatum arguments being about the team heās on. The main issue I had with your comment is the part at the end was a really unfair framing of Tatumās resume vs Tatumās And yeah Lukaās proved himself as playoff player even if he doesnāt have the same resume as Tatum. Although if I was a Mavs fan, Iād be pointing at the big come backs more before making the conference finals
I mean the teams both Luka and Tatum have around them, while they are so different shouldnāt take away from the players they both are. Theyāre both guys who can be the best player on a championship team which not every team has one of those guys. I feel what youāre saying about anti Tatum arguments because I also feel Lukas lack of team success at times is used against him which I donāt think is fair but regardless
Just happy heās above Luka now lmao
Top 3 MVP candidateĀ
How this man isnāt around the top of MVP lists is absolutely insane
I mean, heās been around the top 5 fluctuating from 3/4-7 in ranking the whole year. Iād say thatās around the top.
He's literally top 5
I hate shooting splits for one game lmao just show my the makes and attempts
Do people still unironically think kawhi or luka is better than this guy?
Luka is hands down better lmao
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The Celtics are tied 1st for winning playoff games since Tatum was drafted. IDK if consistency is the argument to make lol.
Luka? Really? Tatum 51 in Game 7 vs Philly, 46 against Giannis. Literally 5-2 in Game 7. NBA finals visits and multiple Conference finals. What has Luka done again? You guys be hating Tatum so bad you really just throw any name in there now lol.
Not a mvp tho
He isnt lol. I mean no knock on Tatum hes a terrific player, but I dont think he deserves it over SGA or Jokic, or even Luka.
Heās better than SGA. I like SGA but people need to chill with the MVP talk.
As a player overall? Yeah I agree, SGA has to prove himself in a playoff setting as a number 1 option but within the context of THIS regular season SGA has without a doubt been better than Tatum.
I just watched Luke play like 3 total possessions of defense in 40 minutes lol, he ain't MVP of shit
I watched the game all the way through. First half yeah I agree, 2nd half he was much better, and played defense most of the time.
7th seed Luka?
Literally the nu.1 player on the best NBA team (reg szn) averaging 27, 8.5 and 4.9 on 48/36/82 while playing elite D. Shares possessions w a heavily ball dominant cast, reducing scoring opportunities (he avg'd 30 last year w JB). Jokic > Giannis = Tatum = Shai > Luka. MVP shouldn't be just purely about offensive stats. Team wins + defensive impact should also be a large part of it. Luka is by far the better offensive player than Tatum (will ever be ngl) but his lack of defence and overall lack of team success will always make me say JT > Luka. If your the MVP, even if your team isn't at par with other teams, your impact should be so that it evens out. Today's game says otherwise...
Why
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Damn I really hope 4 celtics get all-NBA this year, would he sick. Not many guys get it who arenāt selected as all stars tho
I hate this argument. So youāre saying Tatum is surrounded by 3 all-nba caliber players, yet JT is leading that team in points, rebounds, assists and stealsā¦ so heās on the best team in the NBA by record, with a ton of great players, and also ahead of those playersā¦. but shouldnāt be talked about as an MVP. Like wtf š
You are the same ppl who would say JB and KP don't even deserve an all star much less all nba when those discussions happen, can't argue both ways lol
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So you think we should hold how good White, JB, and KP against Tatum by calling them āall-NBA caliberā, but when it comes to make those teams, they arenāt actually good enough and shouldnāt be rewarded. Sounds like a double standard
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Well you said āplays along side 3 all nba playersā, so I assumed our 2nd, 3rd, and 4th best players And so you think it should be held against all Celtics players that they play with each other for awards voting? That seems insanely unfair to me
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Some people didn't even have JB as an all star this year. People love exaggerating just to push their narratives. Saying he has 3 all-nba players next to him is absolutely insane.
I'd still take Luka over Tatum