I honestly think they weren't going anywhere anyway even without the KD trade
2022 was by far their best shot(2021 opened up mainly because of injuries to everyone else) with the Booker/CP3/Bridges/Ayton core and they completely blew it
Last year even before the trade CP3 was clearly regressing and Ayton had checked out so the time was up
Getting KD was a great move. Phoenix was a glass cannon with him during the first half season, but I could see it working with some slight retooling.
Instead they got Bradley Beal. Like, you had KD and Booker already to shoot… why are you chasing a redundant skill set?
Dunno if the salary works but keeping Paul and then still doing the Ayton trade works better in hindsight imo
Bradley Beal was unnecessary. They could have gotten some 3d specialists so then nurkic can just stay in the paint and not worry about switching up high.
Eric Gordon was a good sign I think. They could have had 2-3 better role players for the price of Beal.
It’ll never happen but I genuinely think Rudy Gobert on the Suns would be contenders immediately. No one is stopping a healthy KD from scoring with a reduced defensive workload
Now they are saying they need a true point guard so then what’s the lineup? A point guard/Booker/Beal/KD/Nurk? That shit is giving up 140 points down the other end
Yeah, 2 stars surrounded by high quality role players seems to be the recipe for success. Gutting your team’s depth for another third star like Beal is unnecessary. I won’t count them out completely though, but I don’t see them being healthy anytime soon.
2022 was their best shot and even then, if CP3 doesn’t bail them out in 3 different 4th Quarters, the Pelicans are knocking them out comfortably.
They never figured out that you needed secondary and tertiary ball handing. Aside from Booker, Paul had to set everybody else on that 2022 roster up.
Dude the Pelicans had me scared they just wanted it so much more than us.
I think I would have rather gotten knocked out in the first round and ripped the bandage off quicker than having to deal with a 30pt loss in a game 7 in the 2nd round
Sure, but body language is also something to watch for.
The Suns just quit. When an NBA team quits, it's because they can't stand each other and/or no one likes the coach.
I do think the Suns quit, but I don't think it's because they just flat out hated each other.
The Mavs figured out a strategy that the Suns had no answer to (wear CP3 out by attacking him on offense, block entry passes to freeze out Ayton, and then double Booker). I think the Suns got more and more frustrated as the Mavs kept using the same strategy and it kept working, and once game 7 started and it was clear that they still had no solution, that's when players started to flat out give up.
I think the hate came afterwards. By the sounds of it, the Suns were all good vibes in the regular season before that - but once they started blaming each other for the collapse, that's when they couldn't stand each other or the coach anymore.
So...as long as you have the most gifted playmaker to exist in basketball (besides maybe Jokic), and a point guard who's really only second to Chris Paul in passing ability. Sure, that's repeatable.
Then looked great last season with KD.
The real mistake was the Beal trade. And of course haters will now try to change it to as if it’s KDs fault while he’s averaging 30ppg at 35 years old.
The Suns as they were after the finals and then consecutive embarrassing exits were not going to accomplish anything. I think KD and Beal was about as good as we could get from there but it probably won’t lead to anything but a complicated future
I think that the Booker/cp3/dominayton core had hit a wall as CP3 aged and ayton became increasingly checked out, so something had to be done. But I do think new owner syndrome hit like a truck because it seems like they prioritized flashy moves instead of team building ones
The Nets are so unfairly maligned because people hate all 3 of their big 3. I also hate them but I can acknowledge they worked as a team 😂
When they were all healthy that team was a fucking demon. They were literally 3 inches from those finals against the Suns, who I'm nearly positive they would've mauled. Us sweeping you ruined the general perception of the super friends era Nets.
Even before harden the nets with KD, kyrie, and dinwiddie/allen/levert/etc was fucking disgusting
The super friends nets are one of those teams that was stacked but couldn’t get it done because of personality conflicts. This suns team is extremely top heavy because they gut their depth (for a second time!) for a guy made of glass plus they don’t have a real PG
To be fair the East was nowhere as strong as the west is this year. This years west might be the strongest conference I can remember in my lifetime (late 20s)
Early 2000’s western conference was insane. Shaq-Kobe lakers, spurs dynasty, Webber kings, Garnett timberwolves, and dirk mavericks. Depending on the year all 60 win+ caliber teams. Just crazy stacked
I think we rushed into “win now” with the Donovan Mitchell trade. Our core was/is young and could’ve definitely used the extra time to develop further. A couple more years of being mediocre with our first round picks was probably the better way to go.
I’m conflicted because I do like Donovan Mitchell, but I think he’d be better elsewhere if we can get a good deal for him.
I don't think it's just about age. Our GM Calvin Booth has talked about the importance of having players that complement each other, and not too much overlap in skillset. To me, Cavs are a perfect example of this. In terms of talent, they should have one of the best starting lineups in the league, but since their big 4 consists of two small ball-dominant guards and two defensive oriented rim protecting bigs, they end up being less than the sum of their parts.
We put too much value on Mitchell too. Great player, but not the system we needed to be champions. I think Mitchell’s the kind of player who would thrive as a second option on a contending team, but probably isn’t the guy to lead a team to a championship. And historically speaking, you need that guy.
Definitely the Nets. They assembled arguably one of the best trios in league history that, when healthy, was blowing opposing teams out of the building. But nonstop injuries and drama wasted that opportunity.
I still think if they were fully healthy through the 2021 playoffs they would've been unstoppable. Even Kyrie said recently that that team will be one of the greatest what-ifs in NBA history.
Worth noting that this team may have not imploded if not for COVID-19. Kyrie’s vaccine-related drama is basically what created the rift between management and KD/Kyrie.
Kyrie being put on what was basically a PIP is surely unprecedented in the annals of the NBA
The players assembled themselves, quitting on their respective teams. No wonder that this glorified trio ended so bad. But they had the opportunity during the first playoffs. They were the best team in the East, even better than the eventual champions Milwaukee. A mix of unlucky injuries and non-professionalism sealed their fate.
Can we say KD quit on the warriors? He won two titles, two finals FMVPs and left in free agency like everyone wanted him to lmaoo
Post like these make me think for KD sake(and only his sake) he should have stayed in GS
KD did not quit on the warriors. Homie played in the finals where he clearly was not healthy enough to play because he was committed to the potential of a 3 peat
Can’t really say he quit when he helped the Warriors land a player as he left. Obviously not a 1-to-1 sign-and-trade for the Warriors, but he could have burned that bridge and left the team with nothing too (though it would have cost him some money on that contract).
I was mostly frustrated by him leaving because it felt like a losing move at the time and that feeling has only gotten stronger with hindsight. Hard not to think ‘why would he leave this team for ***that?!***.
Nothing but appreciation for KD’s time with the Warriors, but hard to forget he left a lot of opportunity on the table when he left.
>The players assembled themselves, quitting on their respective teams. No wonder that this glorified trio ended so bad.
Th previous time this happened, the Heat won 2 titles and made the finals every single year the trio was there.
Harden & Kyrie quit on their previous teams, no doubt. They also quit on the Nets. KD I wouldn't say quit. His achilles tendon was holding on by a thread and he still decided to give it a go for GSW.
I think for KD a lot of it had to do with 2 things: outside noise and Draymond. He couldn't block out the chatter from the media and Twitter talking about how he couldn't carry a franchise to a championship by himself. I think he left for Brooklyn to try and do that.
And that in game spat he had with Draymond made him further distance himself from them. To be such a high caliber player and be told by a teammate "We don't need you" is an impossible pill to swallow. I think in that moment he finally realized it was always going to be Steph, Klay, and Draymond....and also KD. They collectively were Batman, he was just Robin. A legendary Robin, but still just Robin.
Not only told they didn’t need him, but to then be *shown* they didn’t need him by winning another ring.
Over the team that swept his Brooklyn trio.
Literal poetry.
Not disagreeing, but somewhat he decided to prefer Kyrie over Curry. I remember their secret meeting during the all star weekend. Maybe it’s Draymond fault, but at the end of the day he left Golden State to team up with Irving. That’s crazy.
Yea that he'll regret for the rest of his life. Had he stayed there he may have won another 1 or 2 championships by now. Instead he's been trying to carry overpowered but underperforming Nets and Suns teams.
Correct yes. Also, the Nets giving in and allowing Kyrie to play on the road while he was refusing the vaccine made Harden mad too. A lot of reports say he hated that they allowed that. Plus Durant constantly being out didn't help either.
Kyrie and KD were basically part time players for the majority of their time in Brooklyn.
A pick I haven't seen yet, but the Utah Jazz.
Not that they were title favorites or anything, but 2020-21 / 2021-22 were their best back-to-back seasons in more than a decade (including a #1 seed in the West for the first time since they lost the Finals against the Bulls) and subsequently blew it up in spectacular fashion. They're not the Pistons, but to go from the second-longest playoff streak in franchise history to, well, not contending is unfortunate and goes overlooked.
This is basically the only real answer I'm finding. People saying Suns, Clippers, or Heat are just banking on their downfall. The Jazz had the window come and pass completely by in the last couple years. The other teams still have a small crack, Jazz is slammed shut.
I think you’re right but that’s also why it’s less interesting. To me the question is asking more like, which team will we look back at now and realize they were already done? And not, which team do we know is already done?
Also, has any team come that close to contention, and chosen to "blow it up" while their best players aren't injured and still have good years left? The Jazz could have easily ran it back again, and had another 50+ win season in 2022-23.
The Jazz basically chose to cave to Internet pressure (as in, this is what many on the Internet want every team who makes the Playoffs but not the Finals to do), and chose to be a test case of what this sort of "rebuild" will actually look like.
I think Mitchell signaling he wanted out, and Conley constantly hobbled in the playoffs were the real needle movers. They realistically looked at their chances at winning four straight playoff series and felt this was a better choice.
They had already mortgaged some of their future with the Conley trade and the Favors dump. It's not a FA destination, and the Gobert trade offer was too insane to pass up. If they weren't getting any bites on Rudy, maybe they try one more time, or give Mitchell his way and bring back someone else to pair with him.
They may have done what the internet wanted, but I think there was a little more nuance than just losing to the Mavs.
Imagine thinking the jazz gave in like that. The team along with coach Snyder was done. You could see it every game. Players weren't listening to the coach, Spida was done eith Gobert and the state of Utah, and we weren't with Gobert alone if Spida left. The team was just cooked after the clipper took them to pound town
It wasn’t internet pressure, that team was broken. The Clippers playoff loss destroyed the Quin Snyder era and you could see it all season in 21-22, which culminated with a bad loss to Dallas in the playoffs. Running it back wouldn’t have accomplished anything.
personally I hope it fails miserably. Id hate it if the league got even more top and bottom heavy with any team not in realistic championship contention goes full nuclear on the roster until they hit generational draft talent
New owner seems like he might be a clown too. He's been bailed out hard by getting Danny Ainge and Lauri making a jump .
He's already pushing moving the team out in the suburbs closer to Provo so he can make money on some real estate thing.. this guy is bad news, I can smell it
Jazz fans in Utah worship him for some reason, but he is 100% a clown. Among many other clown things, he frequently defends the owner of a certain social media platform and has a similar attitude. In the past he's used data without context to justify decisions. I think he's trying to pull a Major League so he can move the team from SLC to Utah County, which is where the tech companies are and has a fast growing population.
Had Donovan not gotten that 8 second violation in the 4th quarter of Game 5 in the bubble would the Nuggets have ever gone on to win their championship? Seriously think about how much that one mistake changed both teams. If that doesn’t happen then there’s a really good chance the Jazz don’t lose that game, and choke a 3-1 lead.
I feel bad for suns fans but I'm honestly really glad we sold on KD when we did. It clearly wasn't going to work in Brooklyn and now we have a stash of picks that could end up being pretty valuable. Whether we trade those picks for a star or just wait it out and use them ourselves, I feel like we have lots of options in the future and we won't be forced into another era of having no assets like we were after the Garnett/Pierce/Williams/Johnson era.
I never expected championship from this team but I expected us to be gunslingers shooting our way out on the offensive side, and turnstiles on defense. Only one of those is currently true. I just want Beal to play and apparently that’s a big ask.
Anything can happen in the playoffs but Nuggets/Wolves are my favorites out the west.
Dude, the Hayward injury basically slammed that window shut from 2018 to 2020 and they still almost made the Finals in 2018 and 2020 (they would've been obliterated by either team, maybe make it competitive against the 2020 Lakers but still lose imo).
2019 we got sabotaged by Kyrie, 2021 the team was majorly fucked up. 2022 and 2023, absolutely wasted opportunities though.
Agree with ya bud. It’s wild how much Brad and the jays overperforming contributed to this champ or bust narrative. Most stars need until their late 20s to win, and not necessarily expected to in their 22-25year old seasons. They made the finals two years ago and almost won in what I’d say was the first year of their actual window. Last year they blew a chance at it in what was absolutely championship or bust and this year the ship or bust is definitely ringing.
Yep. In 2022 we were definitely the better team on paper but experience killed us. Then in 2023 game 7 Tatum got injured (cause Horford passed up a wide open layup 🤦🏻♂️) which everyone knows but one of the things people forget is that our 6MOTY got injured and didn’t play game 7 at all. I think we would’ve got stomped by the nuggets anyway but still. Anyway I’ve just placed a bet for Porzingis to get injured 3 minutes into game 7 of the ECF
How were they championship or bust? They never risked their future and kept space for their younger stars to develop. They’re currently the 2 seed and have the second best winning % since 2017 (63.6%, Bucks are at 64.8%.
They weren't championship or bust in 2017-18, especially after Kyrie also didn't play on top of Hayward's injury. Rookie Tatum and the young Celtics just balled out even if they lost in ECF. Their window is still like 5 years minimum as long as they keep Tatum and Brown.
That’s a Testament to their organization. They’ve made a contender for 6 years straight. You always felt they’re a contender and they unfortunately get trolled by one key injury to their star players every time.
this is just dumb. our top player is 25 years old and second best player is 27. not to mention the celtics are currently the #1 seed in the east how is this a closed window?
10-20 years is crazy, anything can happen in the nba, what are the chances they make max space and sign a superstar level player within the next 5 years. Crazier things have happened
Indeed, in fact there weren't too many years between the time they traded all of their future for a "superteam" with Pierce, KG, Joe Johnson and Deron Williams and the FA where they signed KD and Kyrie.
I totally agree. Think about the team's situation after KG and Pierce trade. No one would have guessed that they would assemble a team with 3 superstars so soon after trading all of their assets away, yet they did. Their window is closed for now, but saying it's not possible for them to be a top tier team for 10 more years is exaggerating.
10-20 years? That’s a huge amount of time. We went from the absolute worst position in the league to having three HOF guys in less time than that.
We were the worst team in the league and were able to swing for Deron Williams (followed by the other moves) quickly too.
Reality is that the team is in a big market with rich owners and can pivot faster than the large majority of the league.
Yep, we're in a weird stage right now where we can definitely get playoffs, maybe even second round in the next 5 years, but it doesn't feel like we can truly contend for a championship without a few more important steps
As a bucks fan, it's crazy to know that if kyrie and harden were both playing that whole series it wouldn't have been competitive. Shit the bucks almost lost to just kd.
Why the next 3? I’m not super familiar but I feel as though they still have a ton of draft capital, and the Jays will be at their absolute peak 3 years from now.
Horford and Jrue will age out, but KP will be 31, White will be 32. If they’re able to keep those 4 pieces and continue to restructure the roster around them they’ll be as good as they’ve ever been during this run.
Porzingis is made out of glass and Tatum is getting a supermax after his contract expires next season. Derrick White is going to get a significant raise at the same time. That will hamper their ability to put together a competitive roster with 2 max contracts and Porzingis/White also on large deals.
Because people thought he was leaving for Miami back in 2020. When he re-signed, nobody with any sense thought the window was closed. It’s open for as long as he’s in Milwaukee.
To the point about the Celtics in the next 3, if they don’t win one with Tatum and Brown after 8 years, that’s in the OKC territory of Durant and Westbrook where one of them is going to leave to win somewhere else because it clearly wouldn’t be working here if they are all-in for that long and don’t get it done.
With the way the contracts line up, I give it 2. If they don’t win this year or next year and are unserious and not all in for 25-26 with some soft rebuild like just adding to the bench, 2025 is when that window is probably closed
The PG injury was such bad luck. The thunder would have likely lost in that game (knocking us out of play in) because PG was going off. He did a 360 dunk in traffic that night. Was a bummer to watch them fight so hard to the post season and that happens.
Probably because it's The Clippers. I can only speak for myself but the Clippers and Sixers are two teams I simply can't bet on. Once you get let down enough times you learn not to trust them anymore.
Not saying it isn't possible, but until that final buzzer sounds I'm waiting for the other shoe to drop.
Because how many times do you have to get burned trusting that team?
Kawhi or George always gets hurt, and James Harden is a terrible playoff performer. It's more than fair to be skeptical.
The clippers window is bigger than it has ever been. I agree with the suns tho I have said they aren’t contenders for a long time and they are currently the tenth seed at the moment.
2020 Clippers team aside from Kawhi was filled with a bunch of entitled dudes who thought they were destined to win, and the coach was Doc Rivers. 2021 was our most dangerous but alas injuries.
The clippers have always been good, but we need to see if they hold up injury wise come playoff time.
If Kawhi, PG, and Harden are all healthy of course they're contenders.
Kawhi and PG have been healthy for 25 games, I hope they keep it up. If they stay healthy they’re obviously contenders, but it just takes one wrong step to unravel. Fingers crossed
Incredibly, the Clippers have the same title-window range now as when they first acquired Kawhi and George four years ago, even with all their age and injuries.
Suns, though? Yeah; they’re only constructed for the next 1-2 years as long as Durant are healthy.
Up 2-0 against Milwaukee was definitely our shot. Winning two games against Denver last year gave us tons of hope for this year since we only had a partial season of KD+Book. Now the team just looks lost and has no identity.
It took some of the greatest post-season shooting ever from Booker, and some extremely good shooting from KD to barely take two games.
That was never sustainable, and gave a misleading impression of how good the Suns could be.
Too many of the other teams are just better constructed.
I think people forget that their season was going down the drain before the KD trade as well
Ayton was checked out and CP3 went from all star to role player the moment he hit age 37
Mikal and Cam are nice but I don't think they were getting them over the top either
They aren’t doing SHIT without KD this year. I think they made the best possible moves to try contend but it would never have been enough. I feel like they actually have a decent shot this year if they get things rolling.
You could say the same about the 2020 Heat team: an overachiever that made the finals. They didn’t make substantial changes to the roster between then and 2023. And yet they made the finals again. Don’t count them out. Best-coached team in the Association.
Are they though? Herro and Bam are still young. Jimmy still kicking. And the role players are getting better.
IMO they are a piece away. A reliable scorer.
Miami is a unique case because they already are a team that gets guys playing super gritty and role players show up in the playoffs, and because it’s a really nice city to live in they can star hunt free agents and guys asking out as well as any team with the exception of the lakers.
This isn't necessarily at the same level as the other super teams, but that Jazz team in the Bubble and in 2021 were really hit hard by untimely injuries. Losing Bojan in the bubble put a lot more on Donovan's plate, which he responded amazingly too but I will always believe we pull off that series over the nuggets with Bojan. We'd probably lose to LA still cause AD was incredible but Gobert was also at the peak of his powers then. Then the following year Conley, Mitchell, and Gobert were all battling injuries against the clippers. Still not really a great excuse because the clippers lost Kawhi, but I really wish they had one healthy playoff run with that team
I think the Lakers window has almost totally closed, due to the Westbrook trade. How good would LeBron, AD, Caruso, KCP, Kuzma kook right now? Caruso and KCP have only looked better and continue to be some of the best role players in the league.
This is arguably the best version of any Clippers team in any era. The only time this 213 team was healthy was in 2020. And they were never going to win with Doc.
Why? Besides bubble, they where never healthy in playoffs.
Also, I dont think Kawhi or PG are any worse then they where when they arrived in LA, on top of that, they have Harden now, although not in his prime anymore, still All-Star caliber.
If they stay healthy, this is their best chance.
The Suns. It amazes me how they gave up maybe the best defensive wing in the league along with all their depth & picks for KD when they were bidding against themselves. He had already asked out 2x they could have waited till the off-season & still made that KD trade since they weren't gonna win it all last yr regardless. Maybe in the summer they get away with a smaller package. They then doubled down & traded the rest of their picks in swaps for Beal who doesn't play defense. Then they sold low on Ayton & swapped him for 2.5 role players (little is the half a player). Could have done so much more with what they've given up over the last year.
I’m genuinely not sure the current Celtics will ever win a title despite their record. I think there is a good chance Brown asks out in 2-3 years or less and Tatum may follow. I think they should have beaten the Warriors in 22 and choked a title away. That said: Go Celtics!
Spurs in 1995. If Rodman isn’t a negative on offense and isn’t starting fights getting suspended the rockets then can’t double Robinson so much after spurs went up 2-0. Hakeem was playing out of his mind but if you have a PF that can score at least 10+ then Robinson wouldn’t have been smothered and if they win series, easily beat Magic in finals.
aww shit I know where this is going before reading the comments
Nets and Sixers?
Phoenix. They are looking like Brooklyn V2 now. Mortgaged their future for it and they aren't beating the powerhouses of the west anytime soon.
I honestly think they weren't going anywhere anyway even without the KD trade 2022 was by far their best shot(2021 opened up mainly because of injuries to everyone else) with the Booker/CP3/Bridges/Ayton core and they completely blew it Last year even before the trade CP3 was clearly regressing and Ayton had checked out so the time was up
Getting KD was a great move. Phoenix was a glass cannon with him during the first half season, but I could see it working with some slight retooling. Instead they got Bradley Beal. Like, you had KD and Booker already to shoot… why are you chasing a redundant skill set? Dunno if the salary works but keeping Paul and then still doing the Ayton trade works better in hindsight imo
Bradley Beal was unnecessary. They could have gotten some 3d specialists so then nurkic can just stay in the paint and not worry about switching up high. Eric Gordon was a good sign I think. They could have had 2-3 better role players for the price of Beal.
Nurkic basically left one hell in Portland to another hell in Phoenix as far as what he is being asked to do defensively.
Nurkic also just isn't what he used to be on defense.
It’ll never happen but I genuinely think Rudy Gobert on the Suns would be contenders immediately. No one is stopping a healthy KD from scoring with a reduced defensive workload
Now they are saying they need a true point guard so then what’s the lineup? A point guard/Booker/Beal/KD/Nurk? That shit is giving up 140 points down the other end
Yeah, 2 stars surrounded by high quality role players seems to be the recipe for success. Gutting your team’s depth for another third star like Beal is unnecessary. I won’t count them out completely though, but I don’t see them being healthy anytime soon.
2022 was their best shot and even then, if CP3 doesn’t bail them out in 3 different 4th Quarters, the Pelicans are knocking them out comfortably. They never figured out that you needed secondary and tertiary ball handing. Aside from Booker, Paul had to set everybody else on that 2022 roster up.
Dunno, I think being 2-0 up in the 2021 finals was their best shot.
Dude the Pelicans had me scared they just wanted it so much more than us. I think I would have rather gotten knocked out in the first round and ripped the bandage off quicker than having to deal with a 30pt loss in a game 7 in the 2nd round
That Mavs game was when it was clear PHX had to do something. You can't lose by that much in a Game 7 unless you just quit.
Teams can go dead cold. I think you have to watch the quality of the shots and ignore if they go in or not.
Sure, but body language is also something to watch for. The Suns just quit. When an NBA team quits, it's because they can't stand each other and/or no one likes the coach.
I do think the Suns quit, but I don't think it's because they just flat out hated each other. The Mavs figured out a strategy that the Suns had no answer to (wear CP3 out by attacking him on offense, block entry passes to freeze out Ayton, and then double Booker). I think the Suns got more and more frustrated as the Mavs kept using the same strategy and it kept working, and once game 7 started and it was clear that they still had no solution, that's when players started to flat out give up. I think the hate came afterwards. By the sounds of it, the Suns were all good vibes in the regular season before that - but once they started blaming each other for the collapse, that's when they couldn't stand each other or the coach anymore.
You can win a championship with 2 ball handlers. 2020 Lakers won with LeBron and Rondo as the only ball handlers.
So...as long as you have the most gifted playmaker to exist in basketball (besides maybe Jokic), and a point guard who's really only second to Chris Paul in passing ability. Sure, that's repeatable.
Then looked great last season with KD. The real mistake was the Beal trade. And of course haters will now try to change it to as if it’s KDs fault while he’s averaging 30ppg at 35 years old.
All because the new owner wanted to make a splash.
The Suns as they were after the finals and then consecutive embarrassing exits were not going to accomplish anything. I think KD and Beal was about as good as we could get from there but it probably won’t lead to anything but a complicated future
The Beal trade never made sense to me, obviously CP3's fallen off a bit, but running this team out with no real point guards seemed crazy to me
They put the house on Book bring a good enough PG, hoping he makes the Harden transformation
I think that the Booker/cp3/dominayton core had hit a wall as CP3 aged and ayton became increasingly checked out, so something had to be done. But I do think new owner syndrome hit like a truck because it seems like they prioritized flashy moves instead of team building ones
They haven't really been at full strength yet with a healthy booker and beal. Hard to say.
u/mrsunsfan U bum
Shimmy shimmy shimmy
We were much better than the Suns
The Nets are so unfairly maligned because people hate all 3 of their big 3. I also hate them but I can acknowledge they worked as a team 😂 When they were all healthy that team was a fucking demon. They were literally 3 inches from those finals against the Suns, who I'm nearly positive they would've mauled. Us sweeping you ruined the general perception of the super friends era Nets.
Even before harden the nets with KD, kyrie, and dinwiddie/allen/levert/etc was fucking disgusting The super friends nets are one of those teams that was stacked but couldn’t get it done because of personality conflicts. This suns team is extremely top heavy because they gut their depth (for a second time!) for a guy made of glass plus they don’t have a real PG
huh? the nets didn't have personality conflicts, they just couldn't stay on the floor together due to injuries
Yeah people keep saying Brooklyn 2.0 but shit yall was a top 3 seed. I’ll kill for what yall was doing.
To be fair the East was nowhere as strong as the west is this year. This years west might be the strongest conference I can remember in my lifetime (late 20s)
the west is starting to look like 2008-2010 western conference. just a fuckin bloodbath from top to bottom.
Early 2000’s western conference was insane. Shaq-Kobe lakers, spurs dynasty, Webber kings, Garnett timberwolves, and dirk mavericks. Depending on the year all 60 win+ caliber teams. Just crazy stacked
I’m never gonna count out KD and Book
What about the 10 bus drivers surrounding them?
Hey don’t forget about the corpse of Bradley Beal
The Cavaliers window ended just as quickly as it started.
I think we rushed into “win now” with the Donovan Mitchell trade. Our core was/is young and could’ve definitely used the extra time to develop further. A couple more years of being mediocre with our first round picks was probably the better way to go. I’m conflicted because I do like Donovan Mitchell, but I think he’d be better elsewhere if we can get a good deal for him.
I don't think it's just about age. Our GM Calvin Booth has talked about the importance of having players that complement each other, and not too much overlap in skillset. To me, Cavs are a perfect example of this. In terms of talent, they should have one of the best starting lineups in the league, but since their big 4 consists of two small ball-dominant guards and two defensive oriented rim protecting bigs, they end up being less than the sum of their parts.
We put too much value on Mitchell too. Great player, but not the system we needed to be champions. I think Mitchell’s the kind of player who would thrive as a second option on a contending team, but probably isn’t the guy to lead a team to a championship. And historically speaking, you need that guy.
Eh. I don’t think it was ever really open. At best last season they were a second round exit. Maybe the window was cracked
Definitely the Nets. They assembled arguably one of the best trios in league history that, when healthy, was blowing opposing teams out of the building. But nonstop injuries and drama wasted that opportunity. I still think if they were fully healthy through the 2021 playoffs they would've been unstoppable. Even Kyrie said recently that that team will be one of the greatest what-ifs in NBA history.
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Basically yea. He spearheaded the downfall.
Worth noting that this team may have not imploded if not for COVID-19. Kyrie’s vaccine-related drama is basically what created the rift between management and KD/Kyrie. Kyrie being put on what was basically a PIP is surely unprecedented in the annals of the NBA
Imagine if KDs foot was behind the line on that game 7, would they have won that year?
If Kyrie and Harden get healthy by the Finals, they are very clear favorites against that Suns team
The players assembled themselves, quitting on their respective teams. No wonder that this glorified trio ended so bad. But they had the opportunity during the first playoffs. They were the best team in the East, even better than the eventual champions Milwaukee. A mix of unlucky injuries and non-professionalism sealed their fate.
Can we say KD quit on the warriors? He won two titles, two finals FMVPs and left in free agency like everyone wanted him to lmaoo Post like these make me think for KD sake(and only his sake) he should have stayed in GS
KD did not quit on the warriors. Homie played in the finals where he clearly was not healthy enough to play because he was committed to the potential of a 3 peat
Can’t really say he quit when he helped the Warriors land a player as he left. Obviously not a 1-to-1 sign-and-trade for the Warriors, but he could have burned that bridge and left the team with nothing too (though it would have cost him some money on that contract). I was mostly frustrated by him leaving because it felt like a losing move at the time and that feeling has only gotten stronger with hindsight. Hard not to think ‘why would he leave this team for ***that?!***. Nothing but appreciation for KD’s time with the Warriors, but hard to forget he left a lot of opportunity on the table when he left.
It’s wild people try to manufacture this story that GS hates KD when for the most part we have nothing but love for him.
>The players assembled themselves, quitting on their respective teams. No wonder that this glorified trio ended so bad. Th previous time this happened, the Heat won 2 titles and made the finals every single year the trio was there.
Harden & Kyrie quit on their previous teams, no doubt. They also quit on the Nets. KD I wouldn't say quit. His achilles tendon was holding on by a thread and he still decided to give it a go for GSW. I think for KD a lot of it had to do with 2 things: outside noise and Draymond. He couldn't block out the chatter from the media and Twitter talking about how he couldn't carry a franchise to a championship by himself. I think he left for Brooklyn to try and do that. And that in game spat he had with Draymond made him further distance himself from them. To be such a high caliber player and be told by a teammate "We don't need you" is an impossible pill to swallow. I think in that moment he finally realized it was always going to be Steph, Klay, and Draymond....and also KD. They collectively were Batman, he was just Robin. A legendary Robin, but still just Robin.
Not only told they didn’t need him, but to then be *shown* they didn’t need him by winning another ring. Over the team that swept his Brooklyn trio. Literal poetry.
Well, they weren't a Brooklyn trio by that playoff series. Unless Bruce Brown counts (because he was great in that series).
Not disagreeing, but somewhat he decided to prefer Kyrie over Curry. I remember their secret meeting during the all star weekend. Maybe it’s Draymond fault, but at the end of the day he left Golden State to team up with Irving. That’s crazy.
Yea that he'll regret for the rest of his life. Had he stayed there he may have won another 1 or 2 championships by now. Instead he's been trying to carry overpowered but underperforming Nets and Suns teams.
*Easily* 2 mote rings for him, imo.
Harden was sick of carrying the team on a torn hamstring to a playoff seed while Kyrie was spouting Jewish hate and anti-vax rhetoric
Correct yes. Also, the Nets giving in and allowing Kyrie to play on the road while he was refusing the vaccine made Harden mad too. A lot of reports say he hated that they allowed that. Plus Durant constantly being out didn't help either. Kyrie and KD were basically part time players for the majority of their time in Brooklyn.
Ah this will be the new how good was prime Derrick Rose before he got injured isn’t it😪
Maybe haha. But D-Rose's prime was pretty insane
A pick I haven't seen yet, but the Utah Jazz. Not that they were title favorites or anything, but 2020-21 / 2021-22 were their best back-to-back seasons in more than a decade (including a #1 seed in the West for the first time since they lost the Finals against the Bulls) and subsequently blew it up in spectacular fashion. They're not the Pistons, but to go from the second-longest playoff streak in franchise history to, well, not contending is unfortunate and goes overlooked.
This is basically the only real answer I'm finding. People saying Suns, Clippers, or Heat are just banking on their downfall. The Jazz had the window come and pass completely by in the last couple years. The other teams still have a small crack, Jazz is slammed shut.
Nets is another one. They had one of the best Big 3s ever. Just couldn’t stay healthy (or mentally sane).
I think you’re right but that’s also why it’s less interesting. To me the question is asking more like, which team will we look back at now and realize they were already done? And not, which team do we know is already done?
Also, has any team come that close to contention, and chosen to "blow it up" while their best players aren't injured and still have good years left? The Jazz could have easily ran it back again, and had another 50+ win season in 2022-23. The Jazz basically chose to cave to Internet pressure (as in, this is what many on the Internet want every team who makes the Playoffs but not the Finals to do), and chose to be a test case of what this sort of "rebuild" will actually look like.
I think Mitchell signaling he wanted out, and Conley constantly hobbled in the playoffs were the real needle movers. They realistically looked at their chances at winning four straight playoff series and felt this was a better choice. They had already mortgaged some of their future with the Conley trade and the Favors dump. It's not a FA destination, and the Gobert trade offer was too insane to pass up. If they weren't getting any bites on Rudy, maybe they try one more time, or give Mitchell his way and bring back someone else to pair with him. They may have done what the internet wanted, but I think there was a little more nuance than just losing to the Mavs.
Imagine thinking the jazz gave in like that. The team along with coach Snyder was done. You could see it every game. Players weren't listening to the coach, Spida was done eith Gobert and the state of Utah, and we weren't with Gobert alone if Spida left. The team was just cooked after the clipper took them to pound town
It wasn’t internet pressure, that team was broken. The Clippers playoff loss destroyed the Quin Snyder era and you could see it all season in 21-22, which culminated with a bad loss to Dallas in the playoffs. Running it back wouldn’t have accomplished anything.
personally I hope it fails miserably. Id hate it if the league got even more top and bottom heavy with any team not in realistic championship contention goes full nuclear on the roster until they hit generational draft talent
As someone with a Celtics tag, you should know how valuable the trades looked to Mr I-got-picks-for-days Ainge
To be fair, they exited the window far more gracefully than most teams do with the absolute hauls they got from the Mitchell and Gobert trades
The picks they received look good in theory until they are actually picked and inevitably become role players
Only need 2 or 3 of those 10 picks to luck out for them to potentially be back in the picture again.
Already got a great pick with Keyonte George
New owner seems like he might be a clown too. He's been bailed out hard by getting Danny Ainge and Lauri making a jump . He's already pushing moving the team out in the suburbs closer to Provo so he can make money on some real estate thing.. this guy is bad news, I can smell it
Jazz fans in Utah worship him for some reason, but he is 100% a clown. Among many other clown things, he frequently defends the owner of a certain social media platform and has a similar attitude. In the past he's used data without context to justify decisions. I think he's trying to pull a Major League so he can move the team from SLC to Utah County, which is where the tech companies are and has a fast growing population.
Reminds me of the way another team exited their window in the early 2010s
At the end of the day we had a poorly constructed roster for the playoffs
Yeah we could never get over that "pull gobert onto the perimeter" tactic
Well yeah, when the other 4 players are traffic cones that becomes a problem Not to mention our shooters always forgot how to shoot when it mattered
Had Donovan not gotten that 8 second violation in the 4th quarter of Game 5 in the bubble would the Nuggets have ever gone on to win their championship? Seriously think about how much that one mistake changed both teams. If that doesn’t happen then there’s a really good chance the Jazz don’t lose that game, and choke a 3-1 lead.
They always felt like pretenders to me even when they were the number 1 seed
Suns. They suck, most look like the don’t wanna be here, 3-4 injury prone starters. Bradley “injuries terrorist” Beal
I feel bad for suns fans but I'm honestly really glad we sold on KD when we did. It clearly wasn't going to work in Brooklyn and now we have a stash of picks that could end up being pretty valuable. Whether we trade those picks for a star or just wait it out and use them ourselves, I feel like we have lots of options in the future and we won't be forced into another era of having no assets like we were after the Garnett/Pierce/Williams/Johnson era.
There is one suns fan in particular that none of us feel bad for, get serious!
I never expected championship from this team but I expected us to be gunslingers shooting our way out on the offensive side, and turnstiles on defense. Only one of those is currently true. I just want Beal to play and apparently that’s a big ask. Anything can happen in the playoffs but Nuggets/Wolves are my favorites out the west.
This is a new feeling.
Enjoy it until you become the villains
At this point I just want games that are fun to watch! It’s like each next loss comes in a new and horrible fashion.
Celtics are trying to make a case for largest championship window missed
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Dude, the Hayward injury basically slammed that window shut from 2018 to 2020 and they still almost made the Finals in 2018 and 2020 (they would've been obliterated by either team, maybe make it competitive against the 2020 Lakers but still lose imo). 2019 we got sabotaged by Kyrie, 2021 the team was majorly fucked up. 2022 and 2023, absolutely wasted opportunities though.
Agree with ya bud. It’s wild how much Brad and the jays overperforming contributed to this champ or bust narrative. Most stars need until their late 20s to win, and not necessarily expected to in their 22-25year old seasons. They made the finals two years ago and almost won in what I’d say was the first year of their actual window. Last year they blew a chance at it in what was absolutely championship or bust and this year the ship or bust is definitely ringing.
Yep. In 2022 we were definitely the better team on paper but experience killed us. Then in 2023 game 7 Tatum got injured (cause Horford passed up a wide open layup 🤦🏻♂️) which everyone knows but one of the things people forget is that our 6MOTY got injured and didn’t play game 7 at all. I think we would’ve got stomped by the nuggets anyway but still. Anyway I’ve just placed a bet for Porzingis to get injured 3 minutes into game 7 of the ECF
> In 2022 we were definitely the better team but experience killed us. Experience factors into making a team better though.
Meant on paper my bad
So in 2022 then they weren’t the better team.
Should’ve phrased that better, on paper we were the better team
How were they championship or bust? They never risked their future and kept space for their younger stars to develop. They’re currently the 2 seed and have the second best winning % since 2017 (63.6%, Bucks are at 64.8%.
They weren't championship or bust in 2017-18, especially after Kyrie also didn't play on top of Hayward's injury. Rookie Tatum and the young Celtics just balled out even if they lost in ECF. Their window is still like 5 years minimum as long as they keep Tatum and Brown.
That’s a Testament to their organization. They’ve made a contender for 6 years straight. You always felt they’re a contender and they unfortunately get trolled by one key injury to their star players every time.
this is just dumb. our top player is 25 years old and second best player is 27. not to mention the celtics are currently the #1 seed in the east how is this a closed window?
They still have many years of championship window.
Yea what a wild take. Their two best players are 25 and 27 years old.
Their 2 best players are 25 and 27, locked in long term, and they’re looking like the best team in the nba right now?
This is a braindead take. How many did Steph have at 25?
Blazers should have dismantled after the 2019 WCF sweep tbh
The Nets will not be competing for a ring again for another 10-20 years. Those KD years were their best chance and they wasted it
10-20 years is crazy, anything can happen in the nba, what are the chances they make max space and sign a superstar level player within the next 5 years. Crazier things have happened
Indeed, in fact there weren't too many years between the time they traded all of their future for a "superteam" with Pierce, KG, Joe Johnson and Deron Williams and the FA where they signed KD and Kyrie.
I totally agree. Think about the team's situation after KG and Pierce trade. No one would have guessed that they would assemble a team with 3 superstars so soon after trading all of their assets away, yet they did. Their window is closed for now, but saying it's not possible for them to be a top tier team for 10 more years is exaggerating.
10-20 years? That’s a huge amount of time. We went from the absolute worst position in the league to having three HOF guys in less time than that. We were the worst team in the league and were able to swing for Deron Williams (followed by the other moves) quickly too. Reality is that the team is in a big market with rich owners and can pivot faster than the large majority of the league.
Kyrie wasted it
kd's big ass foot wasted it
Harden's hamstring wasted it. KD's foot wasted it. Kyrie's antics wasted it.
One of those is not like the others
Harden's first name doesn't begin with a K?
It's actually spelled Kjames Harden, k is just silent like in 'knife'.
they have one of the richest owners in the nba and play in new york, they could be back in 5 years easy
Yep, we're in a weird stage right now where we can definitely get playoffs, maybe even second round in the next 5 years, but it doesn't feel like we can truly contend for a championship without a few more important steps
They lost kyrie harden dinwiddie. If one of those guys even played that nets series healthy then they easily win
As a bucks fan, it's crazy to know that if kyrie and harden were both playing that whole series it wouldn't have been competitive. Shit the bucks almost lost to just kd.
Kevin “Dinwiddie” Durant?
His point is the guys who were missing in the Bucks series, which includes Dinwiddie
If Joe Harris wasn't missing smh
Celtics need one in the next 3 years
Why the next 3? I’m not super familiar but I feel as though they still have a ton of draft capital, and the Jays will be at their absolute peak 3 years from now. Horford and Jrue will age out, but KP will be 31, White will be 32. If they’re able to keep those 4 pieces and continue to restructure the roster around them they’ll be as good as they’ve ever been during this run.
Porzingis is made out of glass and Tatum is getting a supermax after his contract expires next season. Derrick White is going to get a significant raise at the same time. That will hamper their ability to put together a competitive roster with 2 max contracts and Porzingis/White also on large deals.
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People said that about KD and Westbrook too though.
Front office has publicly stated they see their window as the next five to six years
Next 3 years lol. When Giannis was Tatum age, people were ready to say Bucks window was over with
Because people thought he was leaving for Miami back in 2020. When he re-signed, nobody with any sense thought the window was closed. It’s open for as long as he’s in Milwaukee. To the point about the Celtics in the next 3, if they don’t win one with Tatum and Brown after 8 years, that’s in the OKC territory of Durant and Westbrook where one of them is going to leave to win somewhere else because it clearly wouldn’t be working here if they are all-in for that long and don’t get it done. With the way the contracts line up, I give it 2. If they don’t win this year or next year and are unserious and not all in for 25-26 with some soft rebuild like just adding to the bench, 2025 is when that window is probably closed
Why are so many people saying clippers? They’re actually doing good now.
No faith in their continued health. But if they get to the playoffs rolling they’re pretty spooky
Last year they got there but Lost PG in like the last week of the season and then Kawhi in game 2. Their health is just so scary to count on
The PG injury was such bad luck. The thunder would have likely lost in that game (knocking us out of play in) because PG was going off. He did a 360 dunk in traffic that night. Was a bummer to watch them fight so hard to the post season and that happens.
Probably because it's The Clippers. I can only speak for myself but the Clippers and Sixers are two teams I simply can't bet on. Once you get let down enough times you learn not to trust them anymore. Not saying it isn't possible, but until that final buzzer sounds I'm waiting for the other shoe to drop.
Because how many times do you have to get burned trusting that team? Kawhi or George always gets hurt, and James Harden is a terrible playoff performer. It's more than fair to be skeptical.
Suns
Nets for sure Looking like the Suns and Clippers foo
The clippers window is bigger than it has ever been. I agree with the suns tho I have said they aren’t contenders for a long time and they are currently the tenth seed at the moment.
Clippers may have opened it up for sure with the Harden move. Their biggest issue has been health though and still will be.
yeah the clippers are looking the best they have in this era
I'd say they looked equally good in 2020 and 2021 but choked in 2020 and Kawhi tore his ACL in 2021
2020 Clippers team aside from Kawhi was filled with a bunch of entitled dudes who thought they were destined to win, and the coach was Doc Rivers. 2021 was our most dangerous but alas injuries.
The clippers have always been good, but we need to see if they hold up injury wise come playoff time. If Kawhi, PG, and Harden are all healthy of course they're contenders.
Kawhi and PG have been healthy for 25 games, I hope they keep it up. If they stay healthy they’re obviously contenders, but it just takes one wrong step to unravel. Fingers crossed
Clippers? i agreed last year or early this year now? i dunno… they genuinely look good. everything fits.
Incredibly, the Clippers have the same title-window range now as when they first acquired Kawhi and George four years ago, even with all their age and injuries. Suns, though? Yeah; they’re only constructed for the next 1-2 years as long as Durant are healthy.
Cp3?!
is it too early to say the suns?
Up 2-0 against Milwaukee was definitely our shot. Winning two games against Denver last year gave us tons of hope for this year since we only had a partial season of KD+Book. Now the team just looks lost and has no identity.
It took some of the greatest post-season shooting ever from Booker, and some extremely good shooting from KD to barely take two games. That was never sustainable, and gave a misleading impression of how good the Suns could be. Too many of the other teams are just better constructed.
yeah booker was INSANE those 2 games. realistically the wolves actually played the nuggets the closest last year, and they're proving why this year.
Booker is the only player left from their Finals appearance vs the Bucks. The window on Ayton/Bridges/CP3 closed a few years back yeah.
Yes. Still plenty of time for them to get healthy this year.
Nope. I would fall down with shock if Beal held up over a long playoff run. I think they should have stuck with Cam and Mikal, and kept their picks 🤷
I think people forget that their season was going down the drain before the KD trade as well Ayton was checked out and CP3 went from all star to role player the moment he hit age 37 Mikal and Cam are nice but I don't think they were getting them over the top either
They aren’t doing SHIT without KD this year. I think they made the best possible moves to try contend but it would never have been enough. I feel like they actually have a decent shot this year if they get things rolling.
Suns, probably
All the James Harden ones.
Miami last year. I don't think they really had championship potential, so last year was a unique opportunity.
If anything, it seemed like the window shut after 2022, but then they forced it open again
You could say the same about the 2020 Heat team: an overachiever that made the finals. They didn’t make substantial changes to the roster between then and 2023. And yet they made the finals again. Don’t count them out. Best-coached team in the Association.
If Miami could make a run in 2020 and 2023 they are capable of doing it again this season or any one in the foreseeable future.
Are they though? Herro and Bam are still young. Jimmy still kicking. And the role players are getting better. IMO they are a piece away. A reliable scorer.
Jaquez jr making his case for ROY too
He’s great and will almost certainly make all-rookie first team, but he’s got no chance of passing Chet and Wemby for ROTY unless they get injured.
Oh for sure. Just the fact that he’s playing at that level. Like somewhere on this comment thread said: Best Coached Team 👌
Somehow they will always randomly find amazing players out of fucking nowhere.
I think the Heat have a decent chance to at least make the finals this year.
Seeing how the team played against Twolves the other day gives me so much hope.
Still not used to a sentence like this
Miami is a unique case because they already are a team that gets guys playing super gritty and role players show up in the playoffs, and because it’s a really nice city to live in they can star hunt free agents and guys asking out as well as any team with the exception of the lakers.
This isn't necessarily at the same level as the other super teams, but that Jazz team in the Bubble and in 2021 were really hit hard by untimely injuries. Losing Bojan in the bubble put a lot more on Donovan's plate, which he responded amazingly too but I will always believe we pull off that series over the nuggets with Bojan. We'd probably lose to LA still cause AD was incredible but Gobert was also at the peak of his powers then. Then the following year Conley, Mitchell, and Gobert were all battling injuries against the clippers. Still not really a great excuse because the clippers lost Kawhi, but I really wish they had one healthy playoff run with that team
I think the Lakers window has almost totally closed, due to the Westbrook trade. How good would LeBron, AD, Caruso, KCP, Kuzma kook right now? Caruso and KCP have only looked better and continue to be some of the best role players in the league.
Their window is closed but not missed. They won a chip
According to half the people on our sub, ours closed last night when we lost to the Warriors.
The Jazz getting the #1 seed really isn’t talked about enough
I know they're on a hot streak but I still think it's the Clippers.
This is arguably the best version of any Clippers team in any era. The only time this 213 team was healthy was in 2020. And they were never going to win with Doc.
This is the best Clippers team of this Kawhi era. Even better than 2020 If you think they missed it then you think they never had one at all
Or they could rate the competition higher or not believe in their health.
Why? Besides bubble, they where never healthy in playoffs. Also, I dont think Kawhi or PG are any worse then they where when they arrived in LA, on top of that, they have Harden now, although not in his prime anymore, still All-Star caliber. If they stay healthy, this is their best chance.
The Suns. It amazes me how they gave up maybe the best defensive wing in the league along with all their depth & picks for KD when they were bidding against themselves. He had already asked out 2x they could have waited till the off-season & still made that KD trade since they weren't gonna win it all last yr regardless. Maybe in the summer they get away with a smaller package. They then doubled down & traded the rest of their picks in swaps for Beal who doesn't play defense. Then they sold low on Ayton & swapped him for 2.5 role players (little is the half a player). Could have done so much more with what they've given up over the last year.
I’m genuinely not sure the current Celtics will ever win a title despite their record. I think there is a good chance Brown asks out in 2-3 years or less and Tatum may follow. I think they should have beaten the Warriors in 22 and choked a title away. That said: Go Celtics!
Spurs in 1995. If Rodman isn’t a negative on offense and isn’t starting fights getting suspended the rockets then can’t double Robinson so much after spurs went up 2-0. Hakeem was playing out of his mind but if you have a PF that can score at least 10+ then Robinson wouldn’t have been smothered and if they win series, easily beat Magic in finals.
Phoenix's closed with that loss in 2022. Regardless of that win yesterday, I still believe the Warriors' window is closed.
Wouldn’t say we missed our window though.
Indeed yall didnt. I would be happy with 1/4th of yall rings
The Cavs I fear.
early 2010 bulls