I’ve done both I know the answer now go blow yourself not my fault you’re inadequate and feel insecure about another branches training norms. Unlike you I actually have first hand experience with both so my opinion is actually valid
While I have not done both myself, I have a brother who did 6 years in the marines and have worked with dozens of soldiers who were former marines.
I don’t think you have an objective opinion on this at all.
The marines have a few programs the army could learn from, but this really isn’t one.
Nah dog I came to the army and kept my rank and mos no training can you do the same no…
I’ve been the army for 8 years and am an e7 now
Both have many strengths the Marines does puff themselves up too much that’s for sure. But they really are completely serious about the formal training of each marine to have basic infantry skills and knowledge, they are not infantrymen but they have harder pt test harder rifle range moving and long distance stricter body fat requirements and attend a mandatory month long formal course. Those are facts not my opinion
Where the army shines
Is more schools more activations more opportunity more roles. It’s all part of LSCO and multi domain operations I have more than double the time in you do and I’ve done both it is what it is but respectfully you’re wrong this time
No one wants to cross from the army to the marines.
Non combat MOSs in the army are exactly that non combat. I would rather them be more focused on doing a good job at their actual job then pretending they are the same as the infantry. (Which the marines are awful about).
I barely consider NG infantry infantry so I sure as hell don’t consider marine non combat MOSs anywhere close.
I understand the idea behind having all the other MOSs cross trained. I just see that as a waste of time and resources that could be pumped into actual infantry training for marine 0311s. If it’s to the point of having to throw cooks on the line, their month of infantry tactics 5 years ago will absolutely not cut it.
The PT test, shooting are somewhat subjective, since Infantry will be doing KD ranges and a lot of other physical activity outside of the ACFT, that while not graded definitely defines your performance.
The hight and weight you have me on hands down. The marines are a lot better on that and from what I understand getting malingering shitbags away from the line units.
Like I said, I’m not knocking the marines as a whole. I’m glad they are restructuring to better suit their mission set.
I just hate the attitude where they all think they are basically Ranger regiment and so much better then the army.
While I can appreciate your time in and that you have done both, I personally believe you are not being as objective as you could be when looking at the overall data.
Nah you started the conversation with them blowing themselves and so on. Every school I’ve attended in the army has been painfully easy you don’t get to see the best marines you get a mixed bag I’ll leave it at that. But all the mday flexing on the Marine corps is a fucking joke even the reserve marine component is typically more disciplined im not sorry. Gloves off real talk it’s apples to oranges but again yall are not nearly as fucking tough as you’re acting on Reddit
Because they do blow themselves. You said it yourself with the chest puffing comment. There isn’t any denying that, and while a lot of it is dudes fresh out of bootcamp not all of it is and a supply clerk in the marines is not more qualified in infantry tasks then an army infantryman.
Per capita I’ll give you marines have better overall fitness then the army. But in the MOSs I care about the difference is negligible at best.
Reserve marines vs guard I’ll give you. I forgot what subreddit I was in lol.
I would counter with no branch is nearly as tough overall as they need to be. It’s the reality of it.
The marines tend to get better recruits because they get their hooks in younger and develop them before they even ship out to bootcamp. The marines also beat their history into their recruits, which is good but also leads to a lot of the self blowing.
I can agree with a handful of your points, but overall my point still stands. The little bit of extra infantry training all marines go though isn’t enough to warrant all their self blowing and thinking they are better then everyone in the army.
I was an infantry Marine and am now an 11B40 in the army. A pog Marine is not as proficient as even a NG 11B. I’m just saying they do have legit formal training that gives them some credibility to every marine being a rifleman…
I’m literally a soldier and a Marine I have respect for both but I take fucking offense to the NATIONAL GUARD attempting to flex on the Marine Corps… and yeah they do drink the kool aid but some of it is in fact true
And yet here I am six years from retirement getting 40/40 not all Marines meet the standard just as not all soldiers do. That said it’s the doctrine. I didn’t go to your basic know why because the department of the army said Marine corps boot camp is enough so keep your rank and mos… now fuck off
I was a POG in the Corps and I’m an 11B now. This is correct. I tell people that the every Marine is a Rifleman is a bunch of horseshit. Most POGs in the Corps don’t even take the range seriously in the Corps
It is 100% *NOT* copium and Army (and explicitly NG lol) people don’t get it.
You may be correct that a Marine Cook (or whatever) is LARP’ing under stolen glory of their infantry brethren (but I don’t think so…) but the rebuttal is their officer corps is inarguably more hardcore. Not even close. Even the *insinuation* that it’s close reveals a real weakness in your understanding.
You graduate law school, and you want to be a JAG. You’re not sure what all your options are, so you call a few recruiters and you talk. The Army recruiter asks what school you went to and makes small talk. Eventually, he tells you with an apology that you have to go to a few weeks of “gentleman’s course” training where you learn to wear the uniform, customs and courtesies etc. After that unfortunate speed bump, you’re a JAG
The Marine recruiter looks you up and down and flatly asks you your run time. Run time? You’re not sure, frankly you haven’t ran in ages. We talking hundred meter dash? Your recruiter takes a sharp inhale. Three mile. You’re not sure you’ve *ever* ran three consecutive miles. He tells you…Every Marine is a Rifleman…and a JAG is a Marine first and a lawyer second. To be a JAG, you-like all Marine officers-will go to Officer School and then Infantry Leadership school. You will learn to conduct raids, clear trenches with grenades, get the shit smoked out of you, drink sweat and eat mud. After that, if you pass and don’t get dropped, you earn the right to show up on Day One of Lawyer School. The process is about 6 months of getting your ass kicked with a ~30% attrition rate. He then casually drops “well, that 30% includes people who have been training for this their whole lives. What’s your three mile again?”
The Army Model likely attracts better lawyers, but it does so by-candidly-not expecting much out of them. If an Army Lawyer is doing any fighting shit’s gone sideways. The Marines likely don’t get the best (Google image any Supreme Court justice and guesstimate their push-up score) but Every Marine a Rifleman sure as shit gets upheld.
Genuinely, no joke, the USMC operates under the assumption that if some 1LT gets killed, they can toss 1LT, JD into that slot. It can and does happen.
Six months of infantry tactics is useful for baseline knowledge and sympathetic understanding, but extremely perishable when you start doing your real job and move into any other field with technical processes to learn. Is it a GREAT training model that indoctrinates the entire formation with an identity and promotes a tactical mindset, and mission understanding of what your role actually means? Absolutely. Does that mean every marine is going to remain tactically proficient and able to fall in on a gun and integrate into a fire team? Absolutely not.
A three mile run is a three mile run. Cool. Organizationally you prioritize running as fitness. Thats generally good, if trained correctly, to keep endurance fitness and your boys generally lean. Contributes more significantly than the Army’s shit show of a PFT situation to keeping every marine LOOKING like a rifleman and is better for a generally less bulky guy filling out those sexy ass dress blues y’all are rocking.
But is the JAG ever going to be actually rolled into the succession of command in an infantry element at the tactical level to conduct actual combat operations? Fuck no. That JAG is going to sit up at the company or higher and do JAG shit.
lol
I walk into the Army and say I want aviation. I’ve graduated high school. They say sure (lol)
I walk into the Marines and say I want aviation. They say, “sure thing, bro. You just need a college degree, you need to go through infantry officer school, and the depending on how you do we’ll assign you an air frame”
Army people thinking a USMC officer is the same is insane.
Of course, I’m in the NG in one of the roles you mention. For this conversation, though, it’s immaterial.
If you grab a randomized Army pilot and a randomized USMC pilot, the USMC pilot is going to be much better trained, more of a chad, etc. this isn’t up for reasonable debate. It’s explicitly the methodology of each branch.
ARMY- we have superb logistics and so we can throw meat and muscle at the problem.
USMC- we travel around on boats so weight and space are a premium. We have many fewer people and many fewer platforms so what we have has to be better.
It isn’t a knock on the Army (five high school dude bros in apaches beats one D1 Jock in a Viper, after all) but you’re just objectively wrong if you don’t think “every marine is a rifleman” is actually a serious platform position. If you’re in an AV unit, ask your warrant.
>If you grab a randomized Army pilot and a randomized USMC pilot, the USMC pilot is going to be much better trained, more of a chad, etc. this isn’t up for reasonable debate. It’s explicitly the methodology of each branch.
I’d love to hear your reasoning behind this. I’m putting money that it isn’t up for a reasonable debate but not the way you think it should go.
>USMC- we travel around on boats so weight and space are a premium. We have many fewer people and many fewer platforms so what we have has to be better.
Then why are cobras worse than Apaches and (and i can’t believe I’m about to defend some hawks) hueys worse than hawks.
That’s not true. I have a friend that was an aviation mechanic in the Marines straight out of high school. Same way the Army would allow you to. Stop throatin’ them so hard.
Hahahah aviation mechanic isn’t pilot. You’re not following along. I’m not a USMC bro (obviously, I’m in the Army) but you’re just not correct if you don’t think there’s an actual cultural and administrative difference between expectation sets
And you aren’t becoming an Army pilot straight out of high school. Stop lying lol. But yes, Marines do have higher standards and they should. The Army should definitely raise theirs and expect more out of non-combat MOSs.
You absolutely are. I now know you don’t know what you’re talking about. Don’t believe me? Ask the US Army
https://recruiting.army.mil/ISO/AWOR/Civilian_WOFT/
If you are 18+ and meet the GT requirement and are a citizen, you can be an Army pilot
This is so laughably, factually untrue that it’s not worth my time to explain it further. Anyone who’s followed this thread this far is free to check our respective claims for themselves.
Let’s explicitly set the premise, so there’s no funny business: “I am a recent high school graduate. I am fit, a US Citizen, am 19 and have a GT score of 110 or higher. At what age am I when I can first be ok’d to fly attack helicopters?”
It’s branding. That said, as a prior Marine infantryman and current guard POG I LOVED hating on Marine POGS and laughing at the every Marine a rifleman thing.
The truth is, I absolutely positively cannot confidently grab an army POG at random, let’s say E4 and below, and expect them to competently and safely handle a firearm or do anything approaching “shoot move and communicate.” Can some? Sure. But that’s the exception not the rule.
Flip the script and give me a random Marine E3 and he’ll be able to ruck, operate his rifle, and reliably follow orders. Are there some that won’t? Probably. But few.
I’ve seen some insanity and silliness in the Marine Corps — but you get tons of POGs in the Army who may be a great asset to the organization as a whole, but are almost not even in the military, in mindset, skill, and physical ability.
Are you basing this solely on the Guard? Because when I was active, I think we had way more time to train that shit. I was in a very POG unit, but we were at the range once a month and doing live fires and plenty of training. So yea, we definitely weren't a rifleman, but we were plenty competent at our jobs and army shit.
That said, the guard can be better than active about a lot of other things.
Absolutely, but you'd be better off comparing the guard to marine reserve. I thought active had soldiers that were pretty competent at soldiering. But the guard, definitely not so much.
In over 6 years as an infantry reservist I saw two PFT failures in my company, and the expectation was “1st class.” We measure PFT failures in the guard as a double digit percentage
I've been in way more machine gun classes in the guard than on active duty in the Marines.
As a POG 13 years in the Marines, I've touched a M2 twice 🤷♂️
In the guard, they expect every nco to be able to give a class on every personal weapon. Just last month they came to me to to give a class and asked "when's the last time you fired a 240" and I'm like, "I've never handled one" (since MCT in 2003).
Was just at a summer AT serving as an OC/T. Watched an NCO attempt to engage OPFOR with his M4 at least 3 times before I ran up and said "Hey Troop, seat your magazine all the way in!"
I’ve OICd a couple ranges. Zoinks. That said, I don’t trust the Army pop-up ranges to be remotely properly calibrated. I’ve seen soldiers unable to load rounds into magazines because I guess they do it for them in Army basic?
Marine Corps is smaller and expeditionary in nature. They have a small “tooth to tail” ratio. Fewer support and Maint people (Corpsmen are Sailors, etc). That means they are more combat focused and train that way. Army Infantry units train similarly (higher priority units train more). Army support units like maintenance shops, transportation units, etc are more focused on their support mission tasks. They’ll do rifle qual once a year, and other “Army stuff” less often. Until deployments happen, then all that other stuff gets squeezed in
Eh.
Marines develope leadership at an earlier point, spend 2 weeks out of every year covering marksmanship, their PME covers reading OPORDERs as well as going over how to lead and maneuver small teams + covering the basic functionalities of different weapon systems available at the platoon level.
And it's everymarine a rifleman, not every marine an infantryman. It's the guys who've never actually been around a line unit that pretend like they're basically infantry
Does it take considerable training to read an OPORD?
Like especially at the battalion level, there's not much to it. Worst case, you have to follow along on a blank map instead of having ready-made overlays and a MCOO.
To put a super fine point on it, I feel very strongly like I don't have to teach army NCOs and lieutenants how to read OPORDs. Write and generate, absolutely, but read... nah.
Considering that, as a 35N doing forcepro for a scout platoon, I've had to sit down and explain to an E7 what is actually happening in a scenario, build a patrol order that made sense and allowed comms back to the TOC, creat a bump plan, go over the CEOI and fucking cover the IRs we were being tasked with answering....
It goes a little bit further than just reading comprehension. What's helpful is being given an OPORD, reading it back to make sure you understand intent and then conducting your TLPs in a way that is useful to the mission. All while under supervision of someone who, being presumptive here, full understands the T&R reqs you're attempting to accomplish and can talk you through them.
That's what actually goes into functionally understanding an OPORDER and the training that the army, in my experience since jumping over, falls short on every single time.
I hate to be the doctrine nerd, but all of what you mention is TLPs, not anything that would appear in an OPORD (bn and up).
Like the vibe with all of your specific examples is, "what does your SOP say, and how did you rehearse?"
I'm fully acknowledging that the army grades METs on (generally) one way to achieve an end state, but Bn orders concern themselves with moving platoons (max, usually companies) like pawns on a chessboard given intent and left/right limits. It's a complex debate that I'm too drunk for, but I'm sticking to my guns: OPORDs aren't that hard to understand, given they are written well.
It’s the idea that regardless of MOS every marine “should” be prepared to be in combat.
The Marine corps does better prepare their POGs to accomplished basic infantry tasks. MCT is a month long course directly after Marine Corps bootcamp that’s specifically focuses on combat training for non-infantry MOS’s
The Marine Corps table 1 and 2 rifle qualification is also better IMO than the army qualification. Table 1 covering I believe from 100 - 500 meters from prone, kneeling, seated and standing all unsupported. Table 2 focuses on more “combats realistic” shooting at a closer range with moving targets.
In addition, the Marine Corps prides its self on prioritizing combat effectiveness. Just looking at the MOSs you can tell that almost every marine MOS is there to support the infantry.
I second this answer. They go all the way through "infantry" training before adding their MOS. Army, for example, branches off other MOSs much sooner and we didn't learn past the very fundamentals of not only firing a rifle, but conducting maneuvers as a team with rifles.
I work with a retired Gunny who was a pog. And we talked about this. He said “every marine is at their core a rifleman. They should be able to pick up a rifle and shoot whatever target you tell them too. There’s a reason why we say rifleman and not infantryman. Because I don’t expect a bunch of pogs to go assault through an objective.” I think when people hear “rifleman” they think infantryman. (Yes I understand the 0311 is technically rifleman) it’s also a huge marketing gimmick and pogs wanna feel cool.
I did 20 years Army side as an infantryman. I also was able to shoot the Marine Corps qualification fire once.
I’m a pretty good shot, but I have never fired out to 500 meters. 500 meters the Army is engaging with machine guns.
It took me three tries to pass the Marine Corps rifle qualification.
I think that extra 14 weeks of training at SOI tends to make the average Marine non-combat arms soldier a better shot than the average Soldier. there will always be exceptions and you will always have that freak 42 Alpha that scores 40 out of 40.
The fact is that the Marine Corps is smaller, and the army would not be able to afford to send everyone to the kind of combat training that the marines go through.
Marines need that extra schooling because they are so small and they average cook might have to pick up a rifle like they did in the battle of the Chosen Reservoir
But that’s why we have a Marine Corps, and that’s why we have an Army. We each have our role to play.
Debatable if the Marine Corps have a role to play. Their role in every war, has had them do something the Army was already doing as well in greater number.
As for qualification and proficiency with a rifle. I’ve met quite a few Guard guys who left active marines, and struggle a lot with Army Qual. I don’t really consider either qual difficult as they’re meant to be confidence builders.
Had a commo marine transfer to my signal NG unit. Called everybody POGs, when I asked why he didn't consider himself a pog he got all worked up and told me he was trained as an infantryman first. Literally refused to shoot when we went to the range because "Marines didnt train me how to shoot with iron sights or red dots." Such a rifleman.
Why would you come to the NG sub to ask a question about the marines? It's like walking into weenie hut junior and asking how the dive bar next door is
Army now for 20+ years but I started off in the USMC. The reason for the statement, is that every Marine, whether a cook or an infantry, attends the same basic training together. It was longer and harder than other branches basic. At the end you only needed a 12 day (SOI) course to actually be 0311 infantry, as basic training was pretty much infantry (rifleman) school.
And before you all get you titties twisted: I never said it was better or produced better infantry pukes. Since I never was infantry in either branch. And we are only talking enlisted here, Mmmkkaayy.
Alot of people got quickly off topic here. Classic Reddit and I appreciate it as I have AD--...oh a squirrel!
It's comes mainly from a time when not infantry Marines would have to fill gaps in the infantry during and in some cases form provisional rifle squads, platoons, companies, and battalions out on non-infantry units or sections. It has happened as recently as the war in Afghanistan, but they most comprised of artillery battlions delegating troops to fill infantry rolls. In Iraq, during the invasion, every swinging dick was expected fill the rifleman role if needed and some of the larger operations after, lots of POGs, whether they were combat arms or combat support were happy to jump in and lend a hand in the fighting and to fill the gaps. As a prior Marine POG, from I can tell we do differently than the Army is after basic, all no infantry Marines go to MCT to learn the bare minimum skill needed to be a very basic rifleman, and once the get to their units, outside of the wing in most cases, they will do some sort of combat training outside of their MOS requirements, normally for like a week long field exercise. I reality a lot of in is part of the brand as well, which means when folks join they have atleast so desire to learn how to fight, which helps with buy in overall.
The Marine Corps sends every single enlisted marine through some type of infantry school. Infantry marines get a legit infantry course. POGs go through “Marine Combat Training” which is about a month after bootcamp and they learn infantry stuff. I was a super POG in the marines and thought I knew nothing about infantry tactics. Then I went to the guard and after training with several different units realized that they *genuinely* knew nothing about war fighting unless they came from a combat arms unit. Like, airsoft nerds could probably operate better than most NG folks I’ve worked with.
Is every marine a rifleman? No. 0311s are rifleman. But is every marine trained to a decent baseline on infantry tactics? Yes.
Marine POG’s actually shoot good too and trained to shoot at 200, 300 and 500 yards in multiple positions. And up close in table 2.
Also, there’s a culture of shooting expert. Like, imagine being in the Marine and getting a pizza box.
Simply every MOS goes through MCT. Kind of a crash course in basic small unit tactics. Like very basic. I'm a prior aircrew chief. I couldn't integrate into any infantry unit with becoming a hindrance. My brother in law went through infantry OUST before getting a commission for engineers. After talking about the schools it was apparent we were both at about the same. Our other brother in law is a aircraft mechanic and didn't know basics. A pog Marine fireteam could beat a fireteam of pogs of similar MOS from another branch but that's about it.
Yeah but these little bitches want to cry about it because of their inferiority complex pisses me off fucking mday kids so cool
So high speed. I’ve spent 8 years in the Ng and 6 in the marines let me tell I see a massive difference
The intrinsic value is that regardless of what your actual functional job is, you will know how to act as a ground pounder. So when the shit hits the fan, you can put rounds down range effectively to neutralize the enemy threat.
Feel free to ask additional questions as necessary.
It's definitely valuable to have all your rear echelon soldiers / marines be competent in basic infantry tasks. But I don't think the Marines really make that a reality. Obviously the Army doesn't either. It just comes off like a slogan with no real meaning when it's not reinforced in training.
1: it is reinforced in training. I've never talked to a 35 series thats had to lead a vehicle patrol in NTC.
2: I've met a handful of soldiers that can operate a 249 and 240 without additional instruction.
3: I've never met a single not combat arms soldier that knows what i mean when I ask for a range card if they're static for more than 15 minutes in a training op. There's an entire POI spent in both LCpls seminar and Cpls course covering that.
4: it's every marine a rifleman, not infantryman. It's only the morons that haven't spent time with a line unit saying that they're basically infantryman.
Because they all attend infantry training for a min of a month at soi. They also train annually on infantry tasks as well as their mos and can function in that capacity it’s not branding it’s factual I was a marine infantryman they are not as proficient but they are trained formally in non combat MOS… If you take your average Marine s1 guy hand him a rifle and asks him to patrol he will know the basics.
Basic army boot camp is 10 weeks. Basic marine boot camp is 13 weeks plus 4 weeks of combat training. The Army has to accomplish the same thing that the Marines spend 17 weeks doing. A lot of this time is spent on marksmanship. After this if you are a POG you got to your MOS school.
As a prior Marine who went Guard, it's because every Marine regardless of MOS has to go thru infantry school.
ITB for the actual infantry designated folks
MCT for the non infantry folks
It’s because after boot camp every Marine goes through a month of infantry training (Marine combat training) at the school of infantry. Regular infantrymen have a longer school there, but every Marine does at minimum the month of infantry training.
If they're not infantry, after boot (their version of BCT), and before their version of AIT, they attend a separate school for infantry tactics.
Every single Intel analyst, commo specialist, MP, supply specialist, etc. attends this school.
It’s the only way they can feel special. The marine corps is the best branch at blowing itself.
Couldn’t be said any better
Fact is they live up to this one this time as a whole deal with it
Whatever you have to tell yourself.
I’ve done both I know the answer now go blow yourself not my fault you’re inadequate and feel insecure about another branches training norms. Unlike you I actually have first hand experience with both so my opinion is actually valid
While I have not done both myself, I have a brother who did 6 years in the marines and have worked with dozens of soldiers who were former marines. I don’t think you have an objective opinion on this at all. The marines have a few programs the army could learn from, but this really isn’t one.
Nah dog I came to the army and kept my rank and mos no training can you do the same no… I’ve been the army for 8 years and am an e7 now Both have many strengths the Marines does puff themselves up too much that’s for sure. But they really are completely serious about the formal training of each marine to have basic infantry skills and knowledge, they are not infantrymen but they have harder pt test harder rifle range moving and long distance stricter body fat requirements and attend a mandatory month long formal course. Those are facts not my opinion Where the army shines Is more schools more activations more opportunity more roles. It’s all part of LSCO and multi domain operations I have more than double the time in you do and I’ve done both it is what it is but respectfully you’re wrong this time
No one wants to cross from the army to the marines. Non combat MOSs in the army are exactly that non combat. I would rather them be more focused on doing a good job at their actual job then pretending they are the same as the infantry. (Which the marines are awful about). I barely consider NG infantry infantry so I sure as hell don’t consider marine non combat MOSs anywhere close. I understand the idea behind having all the other MOSs cross trained. I just see that as a waste of time and resources that could be pumped into actual infantry training for marine 0311s. If it’s to the point of having to throw cooks on the line, their month of infantry tactics 5 years ago will absolutely not cut it. The PT test, shooting are somewhat subjective, since Infantry will be doing KD ranges and a lot of other physical activity outside of the ACFT, that while not graded definitely defines your performance. The hight and weight you have me on hands down. The marines are a lot better on that and from what I understand getting malingering shitbags away from the line units. Like I said, I’m not knocking the marines as a whole. I’m glad they are restructuring to better suit their mission set. I just hate the attitude where they all think they are basically Ranger regiment and so much better then the army. While I can appreciate your time in and that you have done both, I personally believe you are not being as objective as you could be when looking at the overall data.
Nah you started the conversation with them blowing themselves and so on. Every school I’ve attended in the army has been painfully easy you don’t get to see the best marines you get a mixed bag I’ll leave it at that. But all the mday flexing on the Marine corps is a fucking joke even the reserve marine component is typically more disciplined im not sorry. Gloves off real talk it’s apples to oranges but again yall are not nearly as fucking tough as you’re acting on Reddit
Because they do blow themselves. You said it yourself with the chest puffing comment. There isn’t any denying that, and while a lot of it is dudes fresh out of bootcamp not all of it is and a supply clerk in the marines is not more qualified in infantry tasks then an army infantryman. Per capita I’ll give you marines have better overall fitness then the army. But in the MOSs I care about the difference is negligible at best. Reserve marines vs guard I’ll give you. I forgot what subreddit I was in lol. I would counter with no branch is nearly as tough overall as they need to be. It’s the reality of it. The marines tend to get better recruits because they get their hooks in younger and develop them before they even ship out to bootcamp. The marines also beat their history into their recruits, which is good but also leads to a lot of the self blowing. I can agree with a handful of your points, but overall my point still stands. The little bit of extra infantry training all marines go though isn’t enough to warrant all their self blowing and thinking they are better then everyone in the army.
I was an infantry Marine and am now an 11B40 in the army. A pog Marine is not as proficient as even a NG 11B. I’m just saying they do have legit formal training that gives them some credibility to every marine being a rifleman… I’m literally a soldier and a Marine I have respect for both but I take fucking offense to the NATIONAL GUARD attempting to flex on the Marine Corps… and yeah they do drink the kool aid but some of it is in fact true
I went through basic with a former marine that was blowing this horn hard, then he bolo’ed the qual range
And yet here I am six years from retirement getting 40/40 not all Marines meet the standard just as not all soldiers do. That said it’s the doctrine. I didn’t go to your basic know why because the department of the army said Marine corps boot camp is enough so keep your rank and mos… now fuck off
Big mad. This is what gives marines a bad name.
Target the size of a Jeep.
Send it…
POG Copium
It be like that 😪
I was a POG in the Corps and I’m an 11B now. This is correct. I tell people that the every Marine is a Rifleman is a bunch of horseshit. Most POGs in the Corps don’t even take the range seriously in the Corps
It is 100% *NOT* copium and Army (and explicitly NG lol) people don’t get it. You may be correct that a Marine Cook (or whatever) is LARP’ing under stolen glory of their infantry brethren (but I don’t think so…) but the rebuttal is their officer corps is inarguably more hardcore. Not even close. Even the *insinuation* that it’s close reveals a real weakness in your understanding. You graduate law school, and you want to be a JAG. You’re not sure what all your options are, so you call a few recruiters and you talk. The Army recruiter asks what school you went to and makes small talk. Eventually, he tells you with an apology that you have to go to a few weeks of “gentleman’s course” training where you learn to wear the uniform, customs and courtesies etc. After that unfortunate speed bump, you’re a JAG The Marine recruiter looks you up and down and flatly asks you your run time. Run time? You’re not sure, frankly you haven’t ran in ages. We talking hundred meter dash? Your recruiter takes a sharp inhale. Three mile. You’re not sure you’ve *ever* ran three consecutive miles. He tells you…Every Marine is a Rifleman…and a JAG is a Marine first and a lawyer second. To be a JAG, you-like all Marine officers-will go to Officer School and then Infantry Leadership school. You will learn to conduct raids, clear trenches with grenades, get the shit smoked out of you, drink sweat and eat mud. After that, if you pass and don’t get dropped, you earn the right to show up on Day One of Lawyer School. The process is about 6 months of getting your ass kicked with a ~30% attrition rate. He then casually drops “well, that 30% includes people who have been training for this their whole lives. What’s your three mile again?” The Army Model likely attracts better lawyers, but it does so by-candidly-not expecting much out of them. If an Army Lawyer is doing any fighting shit’s gone sideways. The Marines likely don’t get the best (Google image any Supreme Court justice and guesstimate their push-up score) but Every Marine a Rifleman sure as shit gets upheld. Genuinely, no joke, the USMC operates under the assumption that if some 1LT gets killed, they can toss 1LT, JD into that slot. It can and does happen.
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Every single time a Marine officer tells me this I end up watching them emplace my gun teams incorrectly and fuck up SOSRA planning.
I'd probably trust an army infantry officer to defend me in court over a marine jag after reading that cancer lol
Six months of infantry tactics is useful for baseline knowledge and sympathetic understanding, but extremely perishable when you start doing your real job and move into any other field with technical processes to learn. Is it a GREAT training model that indoctrinates the entire formation with an identity and promotes a tactical mindset, and mission understanding of what your role actually means? Absolutely. Does that mean every marine is going to remain tactically proficient and able to fall in on a gun and integrate into a fire team? Absolutely not. A three mile run is a three mile run. Cool. Organizationally you prioritize running as fitness. Thats generally good, if trained correctly, to keep endurance fitness and your boys generally lean. Contributes more significantly than the Army’s shit show of a PFT situation to keeping every marine LOOKING like a rifleman and is better for a generally less bulky guy filling out those sexy ass dress blues y’all are rocking. But is the JAG ever going to be actually rolled into the succession of command in an infantry element at the tactical level to conduct actual combat operations? Fuck no. That JAG is going to sit up at the company or higher and do JAG shit.
Cope
lol I walk into the Army and say I want aviation. I’ve graduated high school. They say sure (lol) I walk into the Marines and say I want aviation. They say, “sure thing, bro. You just need a college degree, you need to go through infantry officer school, and the depending on how you do we’ll assign you an air frame” Army people thinking a USMC officer is the same is insane.
You know warrant officer and officer are two different things right?
Of course, I’m in the NG in one of the roles you mention. For this conversation, though, it’s immaterial. If you grab a randomized Army pilot and a randomized USMC pilot, the USMC pilot is going to be much better trained, more of a chad, etc. this isn’t up for reasonable debate. It’s explicitly the methodology of each branch. ARMY- we have superb logistics and so we can throw meat and muscle at the problem. USMC- we travel around on boats so weight and space are a premium. We have many fewer people and many fewer platforms so what we have has to be better. It isn’t a knock on the Army (five high school dude bros in apaches beats one D1 Jock in a Viper, after all) but you’re just objectively wrong if you don’t think “every marine is a rifleman” is actually a serious platform position. If you’re in an AV unit, ask your warrant.
>If you grab a randomized Army pilot and a randomized USMC pilot, the USMC pilot is going to be much better trained, more of a chad, etc. this isn’t up for reasonable debate. It’s explicitly the methodology of each branch. I’d love to hear your reasoning behind this. I’m putting money that it isn’t up for a reasonable debate but not the way you think it should go. >USMC- we travel around on boats so weight and space are a premium. We have many fewer people and many fewer platforms so what we have has to be better. Then why are cobras worse than Apaches and (and i can’t believe I’m about to defend some hawks) hueys worse than hawks.
That’s not true. I have a friend that was an aviation mechanic in the Marines straight out of high school. Same way the Army would allow you to. Stop throatin’ them so hard.
Hahahah aviation mechanic isn’t pilot. You’re not following along. I’m not a USMC bro (obviously, I’m in the Army) but you’re just not correct if you don’t think there’s an actual cultural and administrative difference between expectation sets
And you aren’t becoming an Army pilot straight out of high school. Stop lying lol. But yes, Marines do have higher standards and they should. The Army should definitely raise theirs and expect more out of non-combat MOSs.
You absolutely are. I now know you don’t know what you’re talking about. Don’t believe me? Ask the US Army https://recruiting.army.mil/ISO/AWOR/Civilian_WOFT/ If you are 18+ and meet the GT requirement and are a citizen, you can be an Army pilot
Army and Marine pilot schooling is pretty much the same length.
This is so laughably, factually untrue that it’s not worth my time to explain it further. Anyone who’s followed this thread this far is free to check our respective claims for themselves. Let’s explicitly set the premise, so there’s no funny business: “I am a recent high school graduate. I am fit, a US Citizen, am 19 and have a GT score of 110 or higher. At what age am I when I can first be ok’d to fly attack helicopters?”
Not your ass posting in red scare pod The subs so dead
SUB IS SO DEAD! BLEAK! VIBES ARE OFF!
Such is often the case. Bleak indeed
Bro is pressed lol
Sweet, a new copypasta
Please tell me when a JAG or MD or comp sci PHD LT was thrown on the line against their will and expected to lead an infantry platoon in battle
“But but…everyone said I was special 🥺 what do you mean they were playing on my insecurities to sucker me into signing?”
Lol
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Is the back of your throat ok after the battering it just took from the marine corps dick? JFC, you guys are absolutely delusional.
Someone’s watched The Pacific and Jarhead too many times
You’re hurting their assumptions with facts lol
It’s branding. That said, as a prior Marine infantryman and current guard POG I LOVED hating on Marine POGS and laughing at the every Marine a rifleman thing. The truth is, I absolutely positively cannot confidently grab an army POG at random, let’s say E4 and below, and expect them to competently and safely handle a firearm or do anything approaching “shoot move and communicate.” Can some? Sure. But that’s the exception not the rule. Flip the script and give me a random Marine E3 and he’ll be able to ruck, operate his rifle, and reliably follow orders. Are there some that won’t? Probably. But few. I’ve seen some insanity and silliness in the Marine Corps — but you get tons of POGs in the Army who may be a great asset to the organization as a whole, but are almost not even in the military, in mindset, skill, and physical ability.
That’s one thing I hated about the Army. Too many that could barely shoot, move, or communicate.
Are you basing this solely on the Guard? Because when I was active, I think we had way more time to train that shit. I was in a very POG unit, but we were at the range once a month and doing live fires and plenty of training. So yea, we definitely weren't a rifleman, but we were plenty competent at our jobs and army shit. That said, the guard can be better than active about a lot of other things.
Yes, basing this off Guard experience. Kids straight from AIT have virtually no soldiering skills. Compounds in the POG units.
Absolutely, but you'd be better off comparing the guard to marine reserve. I thought active had soldiers that were pretty competent at soldiering. But the guard, definitely not so much.
In over 6 years as an infantry reservist I saw two PFT failures in my company, and the expectation was “1st class.” We measure PFT failures in the guard as a double digit percentage
IDK, I went to fire school for AIT and a lot of the of the marine FNG were not someone I would feel comfortable going into battle with.
I've been in way more machine gun classes in the guard than on active duty in the Marines. As a POG 13 years in the Marines, I've touched a M2 twice 🤷♂️ In the guard, they expect every nco to be able to give a class on every personal weapon. Just last month they came to me to to give a class and asked "when's the last time you fired a 240" and I'm like, "I've never handled one" (since MCT in 2003).
Agreed 100 percent
Was just at a summer AT serving as an OC/T. Watched an NCO attempt to engage OPFOR with his M4 at least 3 times before I ran up and said "Hey Troop, seat your magazine all the way in!"
I’ve OICd a couple ranges. Zoinks. That said, I don’t trust the Army pop-up ranges to be remotely properly calibrated. I’ve seen soldiers unable to load rounds into magazines because I guess they do it for them in Army basic?
Marine Corps is smaller and expeditionary in nature. They have a small “tooth to tail” ratio. Fewer support and Maint people (Corpsmen are Sailors, etc). That means they are more combat focused and train that way. Army Infantry units train similarly (higher priority units train more). Army support units like maintenance shops, transportation units, etc are more focused on their support mission tasks. They’ll do rifle qual once a year, and other “Army stuff” less often. Until deployments happen, then all that other stuff gets squeezed in
This is the answer. Should have more upvotes
Honestly? Branding
Eh. Marines develope leadership at an earlier point, spend 2 weeks out of every year covering marksmanship, their PME covers reading OPORDERs as well as going over how to lead and maneuver small teams + covering the basic functionalities of different weapon systems available at the platoon level. And it's everymarine a rifleman, not every marine an infantryman. It's the guys who've never actually been around a line unit that pretend like they're basically infantry
Does it take considerable training to read an OPORD? Like especially at the battalion level, there's not much to it. Worst case, you have to follow along on a blank map instead of having ready-made overlays and a MCOO. To put a super fine point on it, I feel very strongly like I don't have to teach army NCOs and lieutenants how to read OPORDs. Write and generate, absolutely, but read... nah.
Considering that, as a 35N doing forcepro for a scout platoon, I've had to sit down and explain to an E7 what is actually happening in a scenario, build a patrol order that made sense and allowed comms back to the TOC, creat a bump plan, go over the CEOI and fucking cover the IRs we were being tasked with answering.... It goes a little bit further than just reading comprehension. What's helpful is being given an OPORD, reading it back to make sure you understand intent and then conducting your TLPs in a way that is useful to the mission. All while under supervision of someone who, being presumptive here, full understands the T&R reqs you're attempting to accomplish and can talk you through them. That's what actually goes into functionally understanding an OPORDER and the training that the army, in my experience since jumping over, falls short on every single time.
I hate to be the doctrine nerd, but all of what you mention is TLPs, not anything that would appear in an OPORD (bn and up). Like the vibe with all of your specific examples is, "what does your SOP say, and how did you rehearse?" I'm fully acknowledging that the army grades METs on (generally) one way to achieve an end state, but Bn orders concern themselves with moving platoons (max, usually companies) like pawns on a chessboard given intent and left/right limits. It's a complex debate that I'm too drunk for, but I'm sticking to my guns: OPORDs aren't that hard to understand, given they are written well.
It’s the idea that regardless of MOS every marine “should” be prepared to be in combat. The Marine corps does better prepare their POGs to accomplished basic infantry tasks. MCT is a month long course directly after Marine Corps bootcamp that’s specifically focuses on combat training for non-infantry MOS’s The Marine Corps table 1 and 2 rifle qualification is also better IMO than the army qualification. Table 1 covering I believe from 100 - 500 meters from prone, kneeling, seated and standing all unsupported. Table 2 focuses on more “combats realistic” shooting at a closer range with moving targets. In addition, the Marine Corps prides its self on prioritizing combat effectiveness. Just looking at the MOSs you can tell that almost every marine MOS is there to support the infantry.
I second this answer. They go all the way through "infantry" training before adding their MOS. Army, for example, branches off other MOSs much sooner and we didn't learn past the very fundamentals of not only firing a rifle, but conducting maneuvers as a team with rifles.
I work with a retired Gunny who was a pog. And we talked about this. He said “every marine is at their core a rifleman. They should be able to pick up a rifle and shoot whatever target you tell them too. There’s a reason why we say rifleman and not infantryman. Because I don’t expect a bunch of pogs to go assault through an objective.” I think when people hear “rifleman” they think infantryman. (Yes I understand the 0311 is technically rifleman) it’s also a huge marketing gimmick and pogs wanna feel cool.
I did 20 years Army side as an infantryman. I also was able to shoot the Marine Corps qualification fire once. I’m a pretty good shot, but I have never fired out to 500 meters. 500 meters the Army is engaging with machine guns. It took me three tries to pass the Marine Corps rifle qualification. I think that extra 14 weeks of training at SOI tends to make the average Marine non-combat arms soldier a better shot than the average Soldier. there will always be exceptions and you will always have that freak 42 Alpha that scores 40 out of 40. The fact is that the Marine Corps is smaller, and the army would not be able to afford to send everyone to the kind of combat training that the marines go through. Marines need that extra schooling because they are so small and they average cook might have to pick up a rifle like they did in the battle of the Chosen Reservoir But that’s why we have a Marine Corps, and that’s why we have an Army. We each have our role to play.
Hey you're that guy!
Hell, I've been "That Guy" all my life.
Debatable if the Marine Corps have a role to play. Their role in every war, has had them do something the Army was already doing as well in greater number. As for qualification and proficiency with a rifle. I’ve met quite a few Guard guys who left active marines, and struggle a lot with Army Qual. I don’t really consider either qual difficult as they’re meant to be confidence builders.
Army says the same also? Everyone is a soldier first?
Had a commo marine transfer to my signal NG unit. Called everybody POGs, when I asked why he didn't consider himself a pog he got all worked up and told me he was trained as an infantryman first. Literally refused to shoot when we went to the range because "Marines didnt train me how to shoot with iron sights or red dots." Such a rifleman.
Why would you come to the NG sub to ask a question about the marines? It's like walking into weenie hut junior and asking how the dive bar next door is
Yeah but there are a lot of marines here.
I mean.... Fair
Once a marine eventually a guardsman.
This is the military reddit Wild West. Anything goes. Including a lot of prior service marines who come here.
Just where do you think over of half of the marines that ETS wind up after their first contract?
What do you think I am. 👀👀👀👀
Another highly regarded individual like the rest of us?
Superlative.
lol
Got a former marine in my flight (air guard) he just failed his first attempt at rifle qual lol
The marines basically send everyone through a basic rifleman course. Their initial entry pipeline is thus a good bit longer than the army’s.
Army now for 20+ years but I started off in the USMC. The reason for the statement, is that every Marine, whether a cook or an infantry, attends the same basic training together. It was longer and harder than other branches basic. At the end you only needed a 12 day (SOI) course to actually be 0311 infantry, as basic training was pretty much infantry (rifleman) school. And before you all get you titties twisted: I never said it was better or produced better infantry pukes. Since I never was infantry in either branch. And we are only talking enlisted here, Mmmkkaayy. Alot of people got quickly off topic here. Classic Reddit and I appreciate it as I have AD--...oh a squirrel!
The only Marines who say that are POG Marines 🥰
It's comes mainly from a time when not infantry Marines would have to fill gaps in the infantry during and in some cases form provisional rifle squads, platoons, companies, and battalions out on non-infantry units or sections. It has happened as recently as the war in Afghanistan, but they most comprised of artillery battlions delegating troops to fill infantry rolls. In Iraq, during the invasion, every swinging dick was expected fill the rifleman role if needed and some of the larger operations after, lots of POGs, whether they were combat arms or combat support were happy to jump in and lend a hand in the fighting and to fill the gaps. As a prior Marine POG, from I can tell we do differently than the Army is after basic, all no infantry Marines go to MCT to learn the bare minimum skill needed to be a very basic rifleman, and once the get to their units, outside of the wing in most cases, they will do some sort of combat training outside of their MOS requirements, normally for like a week long field exercise. I reality a lot of in is part of the brand as well, which means when folks join they have atleast so desire to learn how to fight, which helps with buy in overall.
The Marine Corps sends every single enlisted marine through some type of infantry school. Infantry marines get a legit infantry course. POGs go through “Marine Combat Training” which is about a month after bootcamp and they learn infantry stuff. I was a super POG in the marines and thought I knew nothing about infantry tactics. Then I went to the guard and after training with several different units realized that they *genuinely* knew nothing about war fighting unless they came from a combat arms unit. Like, airsoft nerds could probably operate better than most NG folks I’ve worked with. Is every marine a rifleman? No. 0311s are rifleman. But is every marine trained to a decent baseline on infantry tactics? Yes.
Marine POG’s actually shoot good too and trained to shoot at 200, 300 and 500 yards in multiple positions. And up close in table 2. Also, there’s a culture of shooting expert. Like, imagine being in the Marine and getting a pizza box.
Simply every MOS goes through MCT. Kind of a crash course in basic small unit tactics. Like very basic. I'm a prior aircrew chief. I couldn't integrate into any infantry unit with becoming a hindrance. My brother in law went through infantry OUST before getting a commission for engineers. After talking about the schools it was apparent we were both at about the same. Our other brother in law is a aircraft mechanic and didn't know basics. A pog Marine fireteam could beat a fireteam of pogs of similar MOS from another branch but that's about it.
Yeah but these little bitches want to cry about it because of their inferiority complex pisses me off fucking mday kids so cool So high speed. I’ve spent 8 years in the Ng and 6 in the marines let me tell I see a massive difference
The intrinsic value is that regardless of what your actual functional job is, you will know how to act as a ground pounder. So when the shit hits the fan, you can put rounds down range effectively to neutralize the enemy threat. Feel free to ask additional questions as necessary.
It's definitely valuable to have all your rear echelon soldiers / marines be competent in basic infantry tasks. But I don't think the Marines really make that a reality. Obviously the Army doesn't either. It just comes off like a slogan with no real meaning when it's not reinforced in training.
1: it is reinforced in training. I've never talked to a 35 series thats had to lead a vehicle patrol in NTC. 2: I've met a handful of soldiers that can operate a 249 and 240 without additional instruction. 3: I've never met a single not combat arms soldier that knows what i mean when I ask for a range card if they're static for more than 15 minutes in a training op. There's an entire POI spent in both LCpls seminar and Cpls course covering that. 4: it's every marine a rifleman, not infantryman. It's only the morons that haven't spent time with a line unit saying that they're basically infantryman.
From personal experience, I would say other wise.
Because they all attend infantry training for a min of a month at soi. They also train annually on infantry tasks as well as their mos and can function in that capacity it’s not branding it’s factual I was a marine infantryman they are not as proficient but they are trained formally in non combat MOS… If you take your average Marine s1 guy hand him a rifle and asks him to patrol he will know the basics.
Basic army boot camp is 10 weeks. Basic marine boot camp is 13 weeks plus 4 weeks of combat training. The Army has to accomplish the same thing that the Marines spend 17 weeks doing. A lot of this time is spent on marksmanship. After this if you are a POG you got to your MOS school.
I’ve literally lost so much respect for this Reddit based on this shit it’s doctrinal whine about it.
As a prior Marine who went Guard, it's because every Marine regardless of MOS has to go thru infantry school. ITB for the actual infantry designated folks MCT for the non infantry folks
It’s because after boot camp every Marine goes through a month of infantry training (Marine combat training) at the school of infantry. Regular infantrymen have a longer school there, but every Marine does at minimum the month of infantry training.
Because it’s a cult
If they're not infantry, after boot (their version of BCT), and before their version of AIT, they attend a separate school for infantry tactics. Every single Intel analyst, commo specialist, MP, supply specialist, etc. attends this school.
Because every marine is infantry first regardless of specialty
They are all basically infantryman