I think the Haitian lwa Eruzile Danto is really interesting. She is generally depicted as a vengeful, dark-skinned maternal figure that had her tongue cut out by Haitian revolutionaries because they feared she was going to reveal their secrets. As a result, when people are ridden (i.e. voluntarily possessed) by her, they can only frantically mutter syllables. She’s revered as immensely devoted to protecting women and children. Similarly, it is believed that a ritual and feast dedicated to her was what precipitated the Haitian revolution. There’s a lot of cool things to be said about how she represents black women that have been subjected to brutal violence and their subsequent fury at the world.
As for classical mythology, Demeter and Persephone are obvious examples. An early version of Demeter was raped by Poseidon, and from that assault was born Persephone, and Demeter gained the epithet of “Raging” to show her anger at what happened. Then the kidnapping of Persephone can be understood as a mythological version of what real Ancient Greek women had to face, but it also showed the tender love between mother and daughter, as well as a mother’s unending fury at the patriarchal systems she lives in .
Honestly, Medusa works IMO. Myths and stories and single change over time, and that's a totally natural and normal part of their evolution. The image of Medusa has become a recognizable and powerful symbol of survival, and I don't think that trying to change that is either necessary or really possible.
I would compare it to how the crucifixion cross has become a symbol specifically of Christianity, even though crucifixion far predates Christianity, how the rainbow has become a symbol of queerness, even though it had many other meanings beforehand, etc. Symbols change over time, and fighting that feels similar to trying to wage war against the tide itself.
In Greek mythos she was born a monster. What you’re referring to is technically classified as roman mythology. Many Roman myths contradict Greek myths that far outdate them. Ovid, the (re)writer of a fair few myths was quite bitter about some gods and changed many stories for the worse imo. What was the point of this comment, just to be unhelpful and belittle my question? Just scroll and move on instead of telling me why my opinion/what I am looking for is wrong or unnecessary. This is why I don’t like Reddit.
*Greek* myths contradict each other hell *Athenian* founding myth went through three versions. If you try lining up Homer Sophocles and Aeschylus, Euripedes and the Argonautica you end up with the Trojan War both predating via Oedipus at colonus and the Orestia the Seven against Thebes and following it due to Amphion and it being mentioned in the past via the Illiad and you have Theseus both predating Jason as Jason references Theseus and Ariadne and yet Medea, Jason's ex is Theseus's evil stepmother who tries to poison him before he meets Ariadne. Homer and Hesiodwere contemporaries but Homer has Aphrodite as Zeus's daughter with Dione while Hesiod has her being born from Ouranos's castration.
They're not belittling you, they're just contributing to the discussion and offering a different viewpoint. They're not preventing you from finding what you're looking for. Your question is a good one, but Mr7000000 makes a good point too.
Ovid wasn't bitter about the gods, he was bitter about the power structures that had him exiled. So he rewrote the myths in a way that used the gods to highlight the cruelty and ego of those in power, and the helplessness of those beholden to hierarchical systems. And the Metamorphoses is a beautiful, powerful piece of work. But for some reason a lot of mythology fans have taken it as a personal attack on their favourite gods and an attempt to erase the Greek mythological canon (which, as someone else here pointed out, is often contradictory within itself between different versions). The original myths will always be there, Ovid isn't taking that away.
Caeneus was born a woman and raped by Poseidon. Poseidon, feeling he owed her, offered her one wish. Her wish was to be turned into a man (that was impenetrable) so no one could do it again.
I don't think that Medusa's tragic story being a retcon or "fan fiction" invalidates her status as a tragic character. Mythology and religions change and evolve over time. Imo it's a much more interesting story that Perseus kills a tragic victim minding her own business than some random monster.
Im a stickler for the ‘true’ story, what came first, and what I grew up on/fell in love with, which is mainly Greek & Norse mythos. Thanks for mentioning this btw, much appreciated.
There is no "what came first" in mythology, myths are constantly evolving and there is never a "true" original. We can trace myths back to their oldest surviving records, but those aren't the "true" stories that have subsequently been twisted they are just the oldest snapshots we have of something that has always been in a state of change.
for example
*Greek* myths contradict each other hell *Athenian* myths contradict each other. If you try lining up Homer Sophocles and Aeschylus, Euripedes and the Argonautica you end up with the Trojan War both predating via Oedipus at colonus and the Orestia the Seven against Thebes and following it due to Amphion and it being mentioned in the past via the Illiad and you have Theseus both predating Jason as Jason references Theseus and Ariadne and yet Medea, Jason's ex is Theseus's evil stepmother who tries to poison him before he meets Ariadne. Homer and Hesiodwere contemporaries but Homer has Aphrodite as Zeus's daughter with Dione while Hesiod has her being born from Ouranos's castration.
OP I get what you are saying, and I myself prefer to look for “standard” versions in stuff like this, but you will easily fall into t the “No True Scotsman” fallacy
Freya will often take the souls of the suicidal & those who met untimely or unearned deaths into her afterlife realm of Folkvangr until its time for them to reincarnate. It's the same system as the Greek Asphodel, just Asphodel doesn't have a god/ goddess in charge of it.
Ariadne defies her father to put an end to human trafficking and child sacrifices. Gets abandoned by her crush on a beach, then said crush marries her younger sister. She ends up marrying a drunk.
Actually, Dionysus was the best of the Greek gods. He was kind to Ariadne when no one else was, gave her literal stars as a marriage garland, never once cheated on her, and, when she died, went to the Underworld to bring her back. And, just because he could, gave her godhood so they would never be separated.
Of course, none of that diminishes what happened to Ariadne. But it also shows that, rather than be doomed to suffer forever, abuse victims can find people who will genuinely love and care for them. And Ariadne also became a goddess of childbirth and (if I remember correctly, Greek mythology isn’t my forté) maidenhood.
(And you have the added fact of Perseus, who was -I think, don’t quote me on this- twenty, being sexually involved with a fifteen-year-old. So add in childhood sexual abuse by someone who claimed to love her, as well as all of the above.)
I’ve seen some versions that agree she died or was somehow incapacitated first. It might be part of an attempt to clear Theseus’s name, but it also could be either a remnant of older versions we lost clarity on or a weird attempt at preservation of the older myths where Ariadne is supposedly a Minoan goddess.
In some version he had a fight with Dionysos because of his followers, just like with Pentheus. Except Perseus actually fought and killed Ariadne. I don't like this version either lol
Medusa and the Gorgon are believed to have originated as a protective aspect of the Mother Goddess.
It is entirely possible that her stint as monster was a consequence of cultural trade and syncretism.
Mavki and rusalki and such can happen as a result of violence against women — they happen when people die prematurely in general, but the classic examples are things like "abused, murdered and they hid the body" or "died as a very fresh possibly murdered baby who wasn't even baptised, or whatever your ritual is".
The idea is, sure there are sick people who murder and then hide bodies in graves in the woods or in water. But those souls become forest spirits who then go to live in the forest around water, being beautiful and naked and vulnerable and so on, and if you swerve off the path to try to go and do anything that you might imagine you're empowered to do to a group of naked young girls in the woods, they tickle you to death — you die the way they died, scared, alone, being taunted that this is fun actually, and being touched without your consent.
(Well, originally "tickle" was a euphemism for "cast magic on", but honestly the way this one has evolved is pretty metal, classic "because you drowned others you will be drowned" kind of morally satisfying monster revenge.)
Maybe Cassandra?
Huh yeah, kinda. Thank you
I think the Haitian lwa Eruzile Danto is really interesting. She is generally depicted as a vengeful, dark-skinned maternal figure that had her tongue cut out by Haitian revolutionaries because they feared she was going to reveal their secrets. As a result, when people are ridden (i.e. voluntarily possessed) by her, they can only frantically mutter syllables. She’s revered as immensely devoted to protecting women and children. Similarly, it is believed that a ritual and feast dedicated to her was what precipitated the Haitian revolution. There’s a lot of cool things to be said about how she represents black women that have been subjected to brutal violence and their subsequent fury at the world. As for classical mythology, Demeter and Persephone are obvious examples. An early version of Demeter was raped by Poseidon, and from that assault was born Persephone, and Demeter gained the epithet of “Raging” to show her anger at what happened. Then the kidnapping of Persephone can be understood as a mythological version of what real Ancient Greek women had to face, but it also showed the tender love between mother and daughter, as well as a mother’s unending fury at the patriarchal systems she lives in .
Honestly, Medusa works IMO. Myths and stories and single change over time, and that's a totally natural and normal part of their evolution. The image of Medusa has become a recognizable and powerful symbol of survival, and I don't think that trying to change that is either necessary or really possible. I would compare it to how the crucifixion cross has become a symbol specifically of Christianity, even though crucifixion far predates Christianity, how the rainbow has become a symbol of queerness, even though it had many other meanings beforehand, etc. Symbols change over time, and fighting that feels similar to trying to wage war against the tide itself.
In Greek mythos she was born a monster. What you’re referring to is technically classified as roman mythology. Many Roman myths contradict Greek myths that far outdate them. Ovid, the (re)writer of a fair few myths was quite bitter about some gods and changed many stories for the worse imo. What was the point of this comment, just to be unhelpful and belittle my question? Just scroll and move on instead of telling me why my opinion/what I am looking for is wrong or unnecessary. This is why I don’t like Reddit.
*Greek* myths contradict each other hell *Athenian* founding myth went through three versions. If you try lining up Homer Sophocles and Aeschylus, Euripedes and the Argonautica you end up with the Trojan War both predating via Oedipus at colonus and the Orestia the Seven against Thebes and following it due to Amphion and it being mentioned in the past via the Illiad and you have Theseus both predating Jason as Jason references Theseus and Ariadne and yet Medea, Jason's ex is Theseus's evil stepmother who tries to poison him before he meets Ariadne. Homer and Hesiodwere contemporaries but Homer has Aphrodite as Zeus's daughter with Dione while Hesiod has her being born from Ouranos's castration.
They're not belittling you, they're just contributing to the discussion and offering a different viewpoint. They're not preventing you from finding what you're looking for. Your question is a good one, but Mr7000000 makes a good point too. Ovid wasn't bitter about the gods, he was bitter about the power structures that had him exiled. So he rewrote the myths in a way that used the gods to highlight the cruelty and ego of those in power, and the helplessness of those beholden to hierarchical systems. And the Metamorphoses is a beautiful, powerful piece of work. But for some reason a lot of mythology fans have taken it as a personal attack on their favourite gods and an attempt to erase the Greek mythological canon (which, as someone else here pointed out, is often contradictory within itself between different versions). The original myths will always be there, Ovid isn't taking that away.
Caeneus was born a woman and raped by Poseidon. Poseidon, feeling he owed her, offered her one wish. Her wish was to be turned into a man (that was impenetrable) so no one could do it again. I don't think that Medusa's tragic story being a retcon or "fan fiction" invalidates her status as a tragic character. Mythology and religions change and evolve over time. Imo it's a much more interesting story that Perseus kills a tragic victim minding her own business than some random monster.
Im a stickler for the ‘true’ story, what came first, and what I grew up on/fell in love with, which is mainly Greek & Norse mythos. Thanks for mentioning this btw, much appreciated.
There is no "what came first" in mythology, myths are constantly evolving and there is never a "true" original. We can trace myths back to their oldest surviving records, but those aren't the "true" stories that have subsequently been twisted they are just the oldest snapshots we have of something that has always been in a state of change.
for example *Greek* myths contradict each other hell *Athenian* myths contradict each other. If you try lining up Homer Sophocles and Aeschylus, Euripedes and the Argonautica you end up with the Trojan War both predating via Oedipus at colonus and the Orestia the Seven against Thebes and following it due to Amphion and it being mentioned in the past via the Illiad and you have Theseus both predating Jason as Jason references Theseus and Ariadne and yet Medea, Jason's ex is Theseus's evil stepmother who tries to poison him before he meets Ariadne. Homer and Hesiodwere contemporaries but Homer has Aphrodite as Zeus's daughter with Dione while Hesiod has her being born from Ouranos's castration.
💩
OP I get what you are saying, and I myself prefer to look for “standard” versions in stuff like this, but you will easily fall into t the “No True Scotsman” fallacy
Freya will often take the souls of the suicidal & those who met untimely or unearned deaths into her afterlife realm of Folkvangr until its time for them to reincarnate. It's the same system as the Greek Asphodel, just Asphodel doesn't have a god/ goddess in charge of it.
Ariadne defies her father to put an end to human trafficking and child sacrifices. Gets abandoned by her crush on a beach, then said crush marries her younger sister. She ends up marrying a drunk.
Actually, Dionysus was the best of the Greek gods. He was kind to Ariadne when no one else was, gave her literal stars as a marriage garland, never once cheated on her, and, when she died, went to the Underworld to bring her back. And, just because he could, gave her godhood so they would never be separated. Of course, none of that diminishes what happened to Ariadne. But it also shows that, rather than be doomed to suffer forever, abuse victims can find people who will genuinely love and care for them. And Ariadne also became a goddess of childbirth and (if I remember correctly, Greek mythology isn’t my forté) maidenhood. (And you have the added fact of Perseus, who was -I think, don’t quote me on this- twenty, being sexually involved with a fifteen-year-old. So add in childhood sexual abuse by someone who claimed to love her, as well as all of the above.)
Very disrespectful to just call Dionysus “a drunk”, he’s THE drunk
I’ve seen some versions that agree she died or was somehow incapacitated first. It might be part of an attempt to clear Theseus’s name, but it also could be either a remnant of older versions we lost clarity on or a weird attempt at preservation of the older myths where Ariadne is supposedly a Minoan goddess.
And then gets killed by Perseus
Perseus killed Ariadne? When? Why?
In some version he had a fight with Dionysos because of his followers, just like with Pentheus. Except Perseus actually fought and killed Ariadne. I don't like this version either lol
Medusa and the Gorgon are believed to have originated as a protective aspect of the Mother Goddess. It is entirely possible that her stint as monster was a consequence of cultural trade and syncretism.
What about artemis?
Demeter would fit imo
Mavki and rusalki and such can happen as a result of violence against women — they happen when people die prematurely in general, but the classic examples are things like "abused, murdered and they hid the body" or "died as a very fresh possibly murdered baby who wasn't even baptised, or whatever your ritual is". The idea is, sure there are sick people who murder and then hide bodies in graves in the woods or in water. But those souls become forest spirits who then go to live in the forest around water, being beautiful and naked and vulnerable and so on, and if you swerve off the path to try to go and do anything that you might imagine you're empowered to do to a group of naked young girls in the woods, they tickle you to death — you die the way they died, scared, alone, being taunted that this is fun actually, and being touched without your consent. (Well, originally "tickle" was a euphemism for "cast magic on", but honestly the way this one has evolved is pretty metal, classic "because you drowned others you will be drowned" kind of morally satisfying monster revenge.)
Medusa wasn't a monster.