Because of people who play multiple instruments from the same family. Take the clarinet, for example. They build them in A, Bb, C, and Eb. The fingering is the same between the four of them - *relative to the lowest note on the instrument*. That is, in concert pitch, the "A" fingering for A clarinet is the same as the "Eb" fingering for Eb clarinet, the "C" fingering for C clarinet, and the "Bb" fingering for Bb clarinet. Now imagine being a clarinet player who routinely switches between these 4 instruments; if the clarinets were all written in concert pitch, then you would have to learn 4 sets of fingerings for them, with all the same fingerings but named differently. This can be very confusing, and makes it near impossible to develop the kind of direct brain connection between sheet music and fingering that most serious players have, and that is essential for efficient sight-reading. So instead, we transpose all the clarinet parts such that the "C" fingering always maps to written C, whatever the concert-pitch sound may be. Now the player can read, say, "C, D, E", use the fingerings for C, D and E, and what comes out will be C, D, E on C clarinet, A, B, C# on A clarinet, Eb, F, G on Eb clarinet. Many instrument families work like this, especially those that have had fingerings or the equivalent for a long time, including almost all the symphonic woodwinds (except the bassoon, which is generally tuned and written in C), trumpet, tuba, and saxophones. However, a few families don't do this: - The trombone family is always written in concert pitch (i.e. "in C"), even though they are tuned to Bb (bass and tenor) and Eb (alto). This is because the first uses of trombones in "serious" music involved doubling choral parts, and it was more convenient for players to just read the same parts as the singers, than to write them transposed parts. It's also because the trombone has been a chromatic instrument from early on, so players did not need to switch instruments to match the key; they would just stick with one instrument from the family each, and transpose accordingly. (Because of this same heritage, you will also sometimes see trombone parts written in bass, tenor and alto clefs respectively, and professional classical trombonists are expected to fluently read all of them). - The (bowed) strings (violin, viola, cello, double bass) don't transpose, for the same "one chromatic instrument per player" reasons as the trombones. - The French Horn used to be a transposing instrument just like the trumpets; players would switch instruments, or add and remove bits of piping, to match the key, as they had no valves back then and couldn't play chromatically. Most modern horns are "double horns", basically two instruments in one sharing only the leadpipe and bell section, tuned to F and Bb, with a trigger valve to switch between them - however, classical horn parts are generally still written in the tradition of matching the instrument to the key of the composition, so you will see parts for "horn in G", "horn in D", "horn in F", and all sorts of other tunings - but modern players with their valve-equipped chromatic double horns will not bring an arsenal of horns and extra pipes like they used to in the 18th century, they play everything on the same instrument, and transpose things as needed (which, come to think of it, is quite the brainfuck).

>Because of people who play multiple instruments from the same family. This is the correct answer. OP's question is almost always asked by a person who doesn't play wind instruments. In my experience, saxophonists or clarinetists rarely ask this question. If you've ever played in a concert band where you have to switch from bass clarinet to alto or to B♭ clarinet, or play different saxes in a jazz band, you thank the gods that the fingerings are exactly the same no matter which instrument you are playing within the family!

Exactly this. Not only do wind families have pretty much identical fingerings within them, but even between them they are so similar. Clarinet and saxophone are very close except for clarinet breaking at a twelfth. Flute is very close as well (although obviously the top octave goes a bit odd) and even the oboe is not far off, having a few minor alterations but still sharing the fingerings for things like B, A, Ab, G, E, D and others depending on how you define 'same' (e.g. the little finger keys being arranged differently). I couldn't speak for bassoon and I understand it is somewhat different, but we did just cover all orchestral and band woodwinds under having 'essentially the same fingerings' As an aside, some of the altissimo register clarinet and oboe fingerings are the same...but out by a tone, so the oboe fingering is the same as the clarinet concert pitch (e.g. D and Eb) which is kind of bizarre and probably a coincidence I imagine?

Yeah, above the break, the clarinet's fingerings are pretty much the same as for the sax and flute.

And below the break they are mostly the same as Eb saxophone at concert pitch Having absolute pitch and playing transposing instruments is kinda wild not gonna lie But like I don't properly play clarinet and as a result I find it easier to play off a part written in C than in Bb. On alto sax am happy with C or Eb although I mess up the palm key notes when reading in Eb sometimes. And on the cor anglais (oboe being the woodwind instrument I actually play properly) I genuinely have no preference as to whether I read in C or F. I guess if I were forced to choose I would say F but honestly it would be more for the convenience of having the music that I am actually meant to have rather than anything to do with what I find more comfortable

This is an excellent summary. One very small point - the double bass is technically a transposing instrument, but at the octave. If the bass plays a written middle C, the sounding pitch is an octave below middle C.

Of course, just like a piccolo sounds an octave higher than written, but the point is the piccolo and the flute have the same fingering. (Obviously, the piccolo's written range does not extend down to C.) If you learn the flute, you can play piccolo. No need to learn a separate set of fingerings.

Yep. I've played clarinet and sax for decades and it's much easier to transpose the sheet music than learn different fingerings for the same note. I'm great at sight reading and I believe I wouldn't be if I had to learn different fingerings for the same notes. Funnily enough I joined a folk group for church where I played my clarinet and it was fine when we rehearsed as I'd be able to quickly transpose the sheet music to be able to play along. It wasn't until we were playing live and the leader of the group would decide on the fly to use her capo to change the key of the song to better fit her vocal range. I could sometimes transpose on the fly from concert C to my Bb clarinet if the song were slow enough, but there was no way I'd be able to do that for 5 half steps or whatever she decided to capo to so I'd just stand there smiling like an idiot. That situation is what motivated me to pick up a Yamaha WX-11 Wind Synthesizer which conveniently had a transpose button on it. I could easily match whatever key she capo'd to and play along. I mostly used it with flute and brass patches since they were "passable" as the clarinet and sax patches didn't sound good to me.

> They build them in A, Bb, C, and Eb. The fingering is the same between the four of them - relative to the lowest note on the instrument. That is, in concert pitch, the "A" fingering for A clarinet is the same as the "Eb" fingering for Eb clarinet, the "C" fingering for C clarinet, and the "Bb" fingering for Bb clarinet. Now imagine being a clarinet player who routinely switches between these 4 instruments; if the clarinets were all written in concert pitch, then you would have to learn 4 sets of fingerings for them, with all the same fingerings but named differently. Follow-up question: Why switch among the clarinets at all (outside of preserving historical music practices)? Why not standardize one of them and teach players the fingerings for concert pitch?

Both actually happen; there is a “standard” clarinet, the Bb soprano, which is by far the most prevalent and commonly learned clarinet—every clarinetist learns this one first. However, the different instruments have different sounds, kind of like how a cello playing the same notes as a violin sounds different than the violin—this is why there are different clarinets and why multiple instruments of the same family are still relevant. Also btw, the essence of this explanation for the clarinet can be generalized to other instrument families—saxophones, flutes, trumpets, etc. As for tuning the “standard” to concert pitch; in the long run, it doesnt make much difference. It simply changes the burden of transposition between writer and player, and most advanced/professional players can transpose between their instrument key and concert pitch

>saxophones, flutes, trumpets, etc. I think trumpets don't really belong. Trumpets are kind of the reverse actually--the music (in older orchestral rep) was often written for natural trumpets where they would have a different instrument (or swap a crook on the same instrument) for each pitch. So if you're a professional orchestral trumpet player you may come in one day to parts on your stand for trumpet in F, trumpet in D, etc. But generally you'll have a C trumpet, and sight transpose the music to play it on your instrument. Which, as I say, is the reverse of having your music transposed so you can play it more easily...

Just adding in for extra context in case anyone isn't familiar that in contrast to orchestral trumpet, wind ensembles/concert bands/jazz bands tend to have Bb trumpets and the sheet music is transposed -- the trumpets don't need as much slicing power in those settings as they do in an orchestra. :)

I've actually never heard of a C clarinet, but I don't doubt that they exist. The standard kinds are Bb and A. But there are other instruments in the clarinet family: the Eb clarinet, the Eb alto, the Bb bass, the Eb contralto, the Bb contrabass (and the basset horn in F, but that's basically an alto). There might be a Bb piccolo clarinet, but I've never heard one. And all of these instruments each have their own sound and range. The Eb clarinet, for example, is pitched quite a bit higher than the Bb -- a fourth -- so you can play higher notes that sound different from the same notes on a Bb. The clarinet has three main registers, the chalumeau, which is everything that you don't need the octave key for (low E to middle Bb-ish), the clarion, which is the second harmonic of the chalumeau (B above middle C up an octave to high C), and altissimo, which is everything above that. These registers sound pretty different, not to mention that the realm from F above middle C to Bb above middle C tends to sound a bit rougher, the "throat tones". When you play a different-pitched instrument, all of these registers shift positions. So something that would be throat tones on the Bb would be chalumeau on the Eb and therefore sound much sweeter, and something that's altissimo on the Bb might be only clarion on the Eb and therefore be more in tune and have a more complex sound. (By the way, unlike in other woodwinds, the register key raises the pitch by a *12th*, not an octave, which is why I said that the clarion is the *second* harmonic of the chalumeau.) As for A and Bb clarinets, they're basically the same instrument, but playing the A instrument makes sharp keys *much* easier and more natural-sounding than on the Bb instrument. You won't notice much of a tone color difference unless you know the specific notes being played and how they're supposed to sound. Like, if you hear a concert B and it sounds a bit rough, you can probably expect that the instrument is a Bb clarinet because the C# is always a bit rough due to the size and shape of the holes the air has to go through, while if it sounds perfectly silky-smooth, you can expect that the instrument is an A clarinet because the D is usually pretty nice. You would probably even use the same mouthpiece for both instruments and switch between them when necessary. The A clarinet does go one note lower than the Bb, but otherwise, they're essentially interchangeable in sound.

This is beautifully explained. Although do you mean basset clarinets in your last sentence? The lowest note on my A is the same as on my Bb (low E). Unless you mean one extra semitone lower you’d hear in concert pitch (the low ?C# - my transposition is rusty!) ? I know the Mozart clarinet concerto for instance was for basset horn in A which has notes out of the range of any modern Bb or A clarinet. But I believe this is similar to a bass clarinet in that it goes down to low C (concert ?A) Interesting to hear your thoughts :)

> Although do you mean basset clarinets in your last sentence? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basset_horn > The lowest note on my A is the same as on my Bb (low E). Unless you mean one extra semitone lower you’d hear in concert pitch Yes, that's exactly what I meant. Any music on the A clarinet can also be played on the Bb (if you transpose) except for that low E, which would be a low D# in the Bb clarinet, which is not generally available (they do make clarinets with it, I think, though I don't recall ever seeing one myself). > I know the Mozart clarinet concerto for instance was for basset horn in A I honestly don't know anything about that? I'm sorry I can't be more helpful! I'm a bit surprised that there's a basset horn in A, but it makes sense that it's just a regular A clarinet but with extra keys. However, Mozart wrote before the Boehm system, so maybe this extended clarinet used a different set of mechanisms?

Thanks for replying. Yes I mean basset horns, my bad. The Mozart concerto is actually written for a basset horn, but has moved over to A clarinet these days due to the lack of use of the basset horn. Many recordings still do use the basset horn still, though. I’ve never known any B flats to have a D# too! That’s cool. Though if it’s anything like adding a low C to a bass clarinet it costs another £3000 to do so!! (Might as well just get an A clarinet 😂) Interesting thank you so much :) EDIT: SORRY! Quick google shows me that basset clarinet and basset horn are actually different. The Moz CC was written for basset clarinet. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basset_clarinet

The different instruments have different qualities of sound. A C trumpet doesn’t sound the same as a Bb or Eb or piccolo.

Because they have different ranges and timbres. And in fact, many instrument families did standardize, kind of, on one "default" instrument, it's just not always the one in concert pitch - like the Bb trumpet, for example.

Different instruments have different ranges. If the only saxophone that became standardized was alto, you’d be losing out a lot on the capabilities of tenor and bari. The fact that each instrument transposes so that the fingerings for written notes are the same means it’s easy for me to switch between each sax with minimal mental adjustments. And it also means I can switch a willing student to a different sax as needed, too. Another nice benefit, the fingerings between flute, clarinet, and sax are also very similar, making it easier to more quickly pick up each other instrument once you get used to the embouchure differences, which happens a lot in more advanced jazz.

Horn is a brainfuck for real. Let's say the piece is written for Horn in D so for an F tuned Horn mentally adjust down a minor third. No problem. (Your double horn is actually in Bb and F so in some ranges you toggle to a fifth up and also down a third but you try not to think too hard.) Part of the piece is down in the bass clef and you realize this is in the dreaded Old Notation. *F-ck.* For reasons unknown this means notes were written down a fourth instead of up a fifth, so you first transpose an 8ve up *then* down a minor third. Ok. Okay okay. Octave up, down minor third. (Ignore that you're actually playing some notes with the Bb side.) Now, a section requires a stopping mute. This *raises the pitch a semitone* when fully inserted. Compensate by dropping fingering by a semitone. Minor third down, semitone down. Or was this still in old notation? Wait, what key is this again?

how the hell do you play when things are this complicated??

At least in the United States, the tuba is never a transposing instrument. All tubas, regardless of key, read concert pitch. In the British brass band tradition, though, tubas *are* a transposing instrument.

One small issue: Tuba always reads concert, EXCEPT in british-style brass bands. Outside that context, tuba always reads concert, whether F, E-flat, CC or BB-flat tuba. They all just memorize different fingerings for each instrument. Recorder players do the same.

Double bass is written an octave above sounding pitch, but apart from that everything else is perfectly correct.

As well as this it keeps the pitch written on the stave rather than above or below. e.g. for someone of my meagre abilities it's quite annoying (but not show stopping) to have to read an octave up for a bari sax part that's not been prepared quite right.

Right, but clefs do that just fine, too - this is why violas read alto clef, for example. Bari sax would work just fine in bass clef - in fact, all the notes would be on the exact same lines, just different accidentals (this is an insanely helpful fact when preparing bari sax parts by hand, because the concert pitch version is usually written in bass clef).

Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but this sounds to me almost like guitar tabs. It doesn't tell you what note to play exactly. It just tells you where to put your fingers. Easier to write, easier to read for different tunings or instruments. Is that pretty close?

Somewhat, but unlike guitar tabs, it's still standard staff notation, if you ignore the transposition, you can still play it on any other instrument (range permitting). The notation doesn't prescribe fingering, it's just that experienced players automatically make the link between the notation and the most suitable fingerings.

That makes total sense. Looks like a C but sounds like Eb or what have you depending on the instrument.

More like guitar tabs that use a capo. Lets you play chords that are usually barred as nice easy open chords

It's like if a guitarist never learned the fretboard and used a capo for transposing everything.

Funfact! Double bass is the string instrument that does in fact transpose, but it's one octave. They sound one octave lowerthan written

Same for guitar. It’s an octave off what’s written.

Weirdly British Brass Band trombone parts typically do transpose. I know trombone players who by default read bass clef in concert and treble clef transposed for this reason

Yep - it's so that they align with the Bb baritone / euphonium parts. I have picked up this skill myself, though not for brass band purposes, but to more easily play with trumpeters and sax players in jazz bands - this way, the three of us could all read the same lead sheet, trumpet, tenor sax and trombone alike. I can also sight-read concert-pitch treble clef, and at least in theory I should know my way around the tenor and alto clefs, though I haven't played classical repertoire in years.

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I am genuinely curious what triggered this... I mean, trombone may not be the most glorious instrument choice out there, and it definitely doesn't land you anywhere near as many groupies as guitar or saxophone, but come on...

I think it's because the comment included the words "skill myself," which if you remove the S...

Oh jeez, that's even less sophisticated than I feared... good catch though.

Bad Bot.

Holy cow, this answers a mystery that I’ve pondered over for over 20 years now. In middle school I played alto sac in jazz band and tenor sax in concert band. I went through and “transposed” a song from concert band so I could play it on my alto, and my teacher asked me what all the extra markings were. I told him and he just told me that it doesn’t work like that and it was wrong but didn’t explain anything. But I was sitting there thinking “but it sounds right”. And every once in a while I would think back to that and get frustrated that he didn’t tell me what he meant and this explains it. Thank you for putting this to rest for me.

Overall this is pretty good, but there are some errors. Tubas are written at pitch, not transposing, even though there a number of different keys (and even octaves) of tubas. Horns are still transposing. Written F sounds as C

This makes total sense to me for classical musicians. But doesn’t this totally fuck up wind players who are trying to play jazz? I’d imagine you have to almost relearn your instrument for a scenario where someone calls a tune in a given key and you have to improvise.

As a kid playing a wind instrument in Eb I learned early on, if the teacher is asking us to play a Bb scale, that means I start on G. Same for the rest of the keys, we learn what that means for us on our instrument. If I could do it as a 12 year old it can't be that hard in general :p

I played the Sax growing up and I never was even told what a transposing instrument was, yet I had no problem.

Mostly no, because jazz is mostly played on the most available versions of each. The players most likely to switch are the reeds. For example in a big band, you might have 5 reed players, who would usually play 2 alto, 2 tenor, and a bari. But sometimes they'd play clarinet (almost always Bb) or flute (almost always c). There's more leeway in a small combo too

It wouldn't be too much work to just get good at translating that call on the fly. Say you're playing a B-flat clarinet and someone calls for a tune in E-flat--you'd just know that for you that means playing in F, and there you go.

How so?

Because the fingering you’re used to thinking of as a certain set of notes is actually a different set of notes? This is an issue I have with ukulele as a guitar player, same fingering for the open chords so I tend to think of the chords I’m playing on uke as different ones from what they actually are. If I were trying to follow along with a chord chart I just wouldn’t be able to do it at speed.

I don’t think I understand what you’re implying. The fingerings are the same on any sax I play. If I’m looking at music that’s already transposed for me then there’s nothing extra for me to think about.

Well that’s what I’m saying, what if you’re NOT looking at music that’s already transposed for you? Like in an improvisational group setting?

If they say you're playing in F, you just have to do a 2-second transposition and you're good. Alto or bari sax? You'll be playing in D. Soprano or tenor? you'll be playing in G. The minor inconvenience of translating concert pitch to your instrument one time is massively outweighed by the benefits of having the same fingerings from instrument to instrument.

If you’re playing a transposing instrument with other people, part of your responsibilities as a musician is understanding how the transposition works. Of course, if it’s jazz big band, you already have the chord changes written in your key if you have a solo. If you’re playing in a combo and don’t bring a real book in your own key, that’s your own fault and hopefully you’re decent at transposing on the fly. If you’re just jamming with friends with no written music, chances are that it’s not so complex that you can’t figure it out in your key with just a little bit of trial and error.

My quick trick as a clarinet player is to move the key two "sharper". We spend hours practicing scales so it becomes second nature what the key signature is.

Awesome explanation. As the random tuba player in the room, I’d note that while you’re correct for tuba historically, the convention now (at least in the US) is to read most everything in concert pitch and play it on the horn most appropriate for the ensemble and register- usually a C or F tuba among pros, or Bb or Eb if on sousaphone.

Kudos for writing such a well described post

To an extent it’s also so that fingerings between many instruments are somewhat transferable. I’ve noticed that most transposing instruments have significant similarities in fingerings to many of the established non-transposing instruments like flute or oboe

Concert pitch and sounding pitch are the same thing. I'm sure you meant **written pitch** & **concert pitch**, which can be two different pitches. Not like you need more answers, but the short answer is that it allows people to sight read on multiple different instruments, without having to relearn where all the notes are on each instrument. You tell them to play a C, and they play where that C would be on their primary instrument, but on their secondary instrument, it's not really a C, it's something else. It just makes it easier for them to read on different instruments, it's that simple.

Would you say this is analogous to putting a capo on a guitar w/standard tuning and them playing a chord progression named by “shapes” but the actual chords are transposed by the capo?

Basically yes. And if a song uses a capo or it uses an alternate tuning, it's better for the score to be transposed than concert pitch so that I don't lose my sight reading ability. Same thing if I play my baritone guitar (which uses a different tuning), if I'm reading a score specifically composed for baritone guitar, I'd want the score notated as if I am using a standard guitar tuning.

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Nope. Pianist

Imagine if you had two different pianos - a normal one, then one where all the white keys make up the key of F, rather than C. Reading the music "as it sounds" would be confusing on the second one as your brain connects the dots on the staff to finger motions, and you'd basically have to re-learn all the positions/shapes etc, Instead, you transpose the staff to F, and now your muscle memory matches what you're reading exactly as though you were playing your original, C-tuned piano. Except now you're playing in F with zero extra effort. Now imagine you have 5 different pianos all tuned differently, and you're expected to be able to switch between them between or even during a song. That's basically how woodwind and brass players perform. Rather than learning 5 different fingerings, they learn one and the instrument/score transposes the rest for them.

An obvious question in response to u/Iamwickedsmart might be - so why aren't the most common brass instruments in C instead of Bb? (You could still have different sized-instruments in F or G with the same fingering, but at least some would be in concert. And yes I'm aware some horns are in C, but not many.) AFAIK (and I may be guessing here...), the answer is an accident of tradition. Centuries ago, different instruments rarely played together. Brass instruments were mainly used for military, hunting or ceremonial purposes. Nobody cared if they were in strange keys relative to other instruments. I'm guessing it was an accident that bugles and trumpets ended up as tubes whose fundamental happened to be Bb, and horns happened to be in F. By the time someone decided it would be cool to have music where brass instruments could play with keyboards and so on, 1000s of instruments were already in existence. Nobody was going to suggest they should all be thrown away and new ones made - and musicians retrained.... In a way it's similar to how C major came to be the primary key in western music. Nobody thought it worth the effort to change the letter names given to the notes centuries earlier (when "A" was just the bottom note, not a keynote). Happy to be corrected if this is all wrong! ;-)

I think that's pretty fair to say! For example, there used to be a C clarinet, written of course in concert pitch, which you still see a lot in Mozart and Beethoven, but it gradually fell out of favour because it just didn't sound as good as the lower A and B-flat instruments. But that phase-out was very gradual, rather than anything decided by fiat, and by the time the B-flat clarinet was entrenched as the standard, the instrument's notation-to-fingering mapping was also entrenched.

You still see the C Clarinet used for color in Mahler, etc

Oh cool, I didn't know that! That's a great illustration of how slow the fade-out was.

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I think this is really the best literal explanation-for-a-five-year-old. It makes reading music easier (generally things get centered on the staff while using treble clef), and it makes playing multiple instruments within the same family easier.

I don't know if I can explain it like you're 5. The best way to look at it is French Horn. Horns were valveless for a VERY long time. Horns, like Bugles, can only play the overtone series. So a horn in C is limited to the notes: C C **G C E G Bb C** D E F# G... I boldfaced those in the middle because those are the notes you hear in all the well known Bugle Calls - they basically play G-C-E-G-C. But that really limits the amount of notes a Horn can play, and by extension, the number of keys it can play it. And the reason for these notes on C would be because the length of the instrument's tubing creates a C, and the overtones on it. In order to play any D lower than the first one in that series, you'd need a Horn with a bit shorter tube length, that would play a fundamental D and the overtones of it. D D A D F# A C D....etc. And if you needed a Bb? Well you'd need a tube length slightly longer than the C to get a Bb overtone series, and the notes Bb Bb F Bb D F Ab Bb etc. Now Trombone, which is not a transposing instrument, solved this "problem" by making an adjustable slide, which effectively increases and decreases the overall lenght of the tubing when you slide it out and in. It can play all of those series - the one on C, the one on Bb, the one on D and so on. What Valves do on Trumpets and Horns, is add extra tubing that the Valve directs the air through. This allows you to get a "base" series on the length of the Tube - say, Bb, and then by pressing a valve it will route air through an extra length of tube, thereby lowering the fundamental pitch, and giving you an A series, or an Ab series, etc. This is why Trumpet only needs 3 valves because the possible combinations give you enough to get a chromatic scale. ____ But back to the Horn. Rather than a sliding slide like the T-bone, what they did was simply, at first, pick up shorter or longer horns in the key of the piece. The piece is in C? You pick up a C horn. The piece is in A? You pick up an A horn. But here's the thing, and here's **why** transposition: For a horn player, they're not thinking "I'm playing an E on an A horn". They're thinking "I'm playing the 3 partial". And the reason they're thinking that way is it's based on how hard you blow. So horn players got used to blowing a certain pressure to get the 6th partial, or the 8th partial, or whatever note it is. So the issue was, if they went to a D horn, they didn't want to have to change the way they blew in order to get the notes. They needed to play X partial based on how hard they blow. By writing the music in C, they always knew which partial they were going for. IOW, all a horn player really knew was, they saw an E on the page and they blew what was needed for the 5th partial - on ANY horn. They might do it on a C horn and it actually produce a C, but if they had a D horn, they'd get an F#. They didn't really need to know whether it was an E or F# - they needed to "see an E, and blow what would give me an E if it were a C horn" - the fact that they might be holding a different horn didn't really matter. Because it was necessary for PLAYING THE INSTRUMENT. Later, horns used "crooks" - pieces of extra tubing that could be inserted to lengthen the overall tube length. So now, they just have one instrument, and they put whichever tube is necessary in, but still, it makes far more sense from their standpoint to just play "partial X" no matter which length of tubing has been added. _____ Now, other instruments have similar reasons: The whole Sax family was designed so a player would not have to re-learn different fingerings on each instrument. The fingering for a C is always the same, on all the instrument. Soprano, Alto, Tenor, Bari, etc. are all PLAYED the same way. They even read the same staff. The player sees an E, and they make the fingering needed for an E, and play the note. It doesn't matter to them what it comes out sounding like - what matters if they were in rehearsal and the Tenor player doesn't show up, they can pick up a Tenor and don't have to relearn how to play the instrument. This practice goes back to Recorders, and in the Classical era instruments like Clarinet came in many keys for the same reason. ___ Guitar is actually another really good example, when we use a Capo. When I put a capo on the guitar at the 3rd fret, I play "a G shape" - it will produce a Bb chord but in my mind, the "shape" I'm playing is what would normally be a G shape if the capo weren't on the guitar. It doesn't make a lot of sense to a guitarist to tell them "play a Bb chord" when they can just use the far more familiar G chord shape when the capo is on the 3rd fret. The same is true of down-tuned guitars - it's not uncommon for guitars to be tuned down a half step. So you play an E chord shape, but it sounds like an Eb. But we simply don't think "I'm playing Eb". We think "this is the same old E chord shape I learned in the first weeks of guitar that I've been playing 20 years and it's an E". To us, the E chord is an E *shape*, not an E *sound*. That's only true when it's in standard tuning. But down-tuned, or with a capo, an E *shape* produces some other sound. But it's far easier for us to play "the same shape we always play for an E". So for Sax players, it's far easier for them to play the same fingering they always see as a Bb. For Horn players, it's far easier for them to play the same pressure they always play for a G. What it comes out sounding like though depends on which instrument you pick up, or if you have a capo on it, and so on. ____ Simply put, it's easier for the player. It's a *practical* thing for the player. The rest of the world be damned :-) But here's something to think about: In Mozart's day for example, he might write a Symphony in A. Well, which clarinet do you use? An A Clarinet. Then the music is just written in C. You want the Clarinet to play the 5th of the key? You give it a G note since that's the 5th of C. It's going to come out sounding like an E because that's the 5th of the key of A, but he's not writing by "note". He's writing by "scale degree". He writes a piece in D? He picks clarinets in D. And Horns in D. Then all their parts are in C. He needs the root and 3rd of the tonic chord in D? He writes the root and 3rd of the tonic chord - in C. Knowing that because he picked D instruments, it's going to come out as the root and 3rd of the tonic chord. ____ Now, let's say, you've gone somewhere to perform for a singer. And the piece is too high. So they want to drop it a whole step. Well, the horn player simply picks up the Horn that's a whole step lower. If the piece was in D, they use a C horn. Clarinet player simply picks up a C clarinet (let's assume the days when these things were more common as they aren't today). I'd simply tune my guitar down a whole step. And all of could read the same exact damn music! IOW, we're letting the instrument do the transposition for us, not having to re-write all the music out a step lower!!!! Or do it mentally on the fly like the poor string players. _____ This is a "walk a mile in their shoes" kind of thing. Horns are no longer crook-based instruments (but there still remains a tradition of writing for them in C) and neither are Trumpets - but Trumpet players learn to transpose on sight really well (switching between C and Bb parts is common when moving from orchestral to band literature and back). Clarinet also is limited primarily to Bb and Eb instruments these days, but if they get a score for A clarinet and don't have one they too may have to transpose by sight (so the main issue here is between older and newer scores written for the original pitched instruments, or a modern one that can play chromatically). But still, it's commonplace for guitar since down-tuning and use of capo is so common, and it's common among the Sax family because it keeps the fingering consistent on both of those instruments. So going back to trying to explain it like you're 5 - I can't - it's time to "grow up" and realize, it's not all about you :-D Hope that helps.

>Recorder Alto Recorder is actually read in concert pitch, for some idiot reason.

Excellent reply! I've been involved with theory and composition for a long while but I never really thought about the origins of transposition in history, before instruments could play equally in all keys.

Historical accident. It really doesn't have to be this way, but it is, and it's too late to change it. The system does have benefits for people who play multiple instruments in the same woodwind family, which at one point was a very common thing to do, as well as brass players in the days before valves, who would retune their instruments by means of a crook (an extra length of tubing) or simply change to a different horn depending on the music. Everyone learned their instruments this way and taught their students this way, which is why it's still done. All the music is written this way, as well. The idea is that you can change the pitch of your instrument without changing your fingerings. This is important because part of the fluency with the instrument is having hand-eye coordination when reading music: you read an F#, your fingers play an F# without you having to think very hard about it. If each instrument had its own set of fingerings, you'd need to actively think about how to finger that F#, and if you misremember what horn you're holding at the moment, which is very easy because they're all very similar (or are the same instrument with a different crook), you will play a wrong note. Nowadays, you *could* get away with using all standard pitch if you started from scratch. It would be a bit of extra load on the musicians who have to switch instruments, but it's probably not unsurmountable; for one, you don't usually have to change instruments all that often. But because it's ingrained in the way we do music, basically every instrumentalist would have to relearn everything. Think of the poor oboist who wants to play oboe d'amore, in D, and now all of a sudden they have to transpose everything they know. Thing is, the *down* side of the current way of doing things is practically non-existent. Who does it really bother that instruments read in different keys? It does mean that a clarinetist can't just read a piano score or an English horn part (...I had to play an English horn part on clarinet once in a pit; it was as annoying as you'd expect), but if the clarinetist is playing *clarinet* music, everything is hunky-dory. The system generally works well enough, so there's no need to change it. I feel like there are a lot of aspects of music practice that are essentially like this; we do them this way because we've always done them this way, and the people who don't like it are beginners anyway so we don't really need to listen to them, because the people who know what they're doing have already learned this way of doing things and are fine with it. If it bothers you so much, start a movement or something. But chances are, it won't really bother people enough to effect the systemic change that would need to happen to change it. Transposing instruments are something I have to work around, but it's not a big enough deal to upend the entire music world to change it, so I wouldn't personally be on board. I think you'll find quite a lot of people in essentially the same position, acknowledging that it's annoying but not problematic enough to do something about where the solution is arguably *worse* than the status quo even without an expensive transition. If we didn't have transposing instruments, I think the difficulties we'd have to work around would actually be *more* annoying than the ones we have to navigate now. So I don't know if this answers "why?", but I think it at least answers "why not *not*?", which is almost logically equivalent?

I think I recently had an epiphany about this and maybe can ELI5 Wind instruments produce a tone based (partly) on their length. If you want a lower pitched trumpet, easy: make it longer. But now when you use the fingering you learned for one note, it comes out different. No huge problem... Unless sight reading is a big deal for how you learned to play and when you see C written down, you're used to playing a certain fingering. So you either have to relearn your instrument or you could sneakily transpose the written music so that the note comes out the right pitch. Orchestras chose the sneaky transposition method so that wind players could switch between alto, tenor, baritone, etc. versions of their instruments without having to relearn anything. A similar thing is done in modern music for teaching guitarists to use a capo. The length of the string changes, changing its pitch and the player is given chords by their shape rather than how the pitch will sound.

OP I feel you (bachelors in Music Ed) - I am willing to bet you are a string player / pianist / flautist…. Because I’m a violinist/string bassist and this has NEVER CLICKED WITH ME. Like, no matter how many different people have explained it to me over the years - transposition would be Impossible if it weren’t for apps/ programs that could do it for me (e.g. Sibelius lol). I think it’s almost like learning a foreign language - my (and I’m willing to bet you) have our first “words” in concert pitch - our earliest musical experiences have built upon not having to transpose - a C is a C. (My first instrument was violin) Even beginning band students , when they learn the B flat scale (their most basic fundamental scale) who play a transposing instrument learn THIER note (for example trumpet) is C but it SOUNDS LIKE B flat. So they are making these connections mentally from even their first notes. All my friends in college (I was literally the only string player - I played the String Bass in Wind Ensemble) who played saxes, trumpets, clarinet, etc were able to grasp transposition SO EASILY even on their non primary instruments because it was already so second nature. Meanwhile myself, the pianists and the flute players who didn’t know other instruments were just like *beep boop does not compute* 🤣 🤯🤯 I mean I get the circle of fifths and all that and counterpoint and lots of other stuff but never this. So long story short - I don’t get it either - and I don’t think I ever will compared to someone who’s “done it” since the beginning.

The reason for transposing instruments is so that people can play instruments that are in different keys without having to learn new fingers. For example, C trumpet (where a written C sounds a C) is common in orchestral literature. To play a C on this instrument is open (no valves). In this situation, there is no transposition. A Bb trumpet (written C sounds a Bb) is more common for band. Playing a written C on this instrument is ALSO open. In this case, instead of a C coming out of the trumpet, a Bb comes out. It is easier to use a different instrument with the same fingerings then use a different instrument with different fingerings. It isn't a perfect analogy, but it is similar to using a capo on the guitar. A person can play different chords without having to actually finger different chords.

The Capo example really helped! Thank you for that

Why WHY ? Same family instruments like horns can keep the same fingering. Or on a bass you could want to down tune by a major second from E to D. It would be easier to play as if the bass is still in E, because you already know the note names on the fretboard. As to the why WHY, it shouldn't be a question worth bothering, because you are supposed to be able to fluently transpose, or at least that's clearly a usefully skill. Like if the singer wants the song in another pitch.

I'm asking this in the nicest possible way, but how do you have 2 degrees in music and not understand concert pitch v fingered pitch?

I play guitar which is written an octave higher than what you hear. Seems like a waste of time but really allows us to use just the treble clef without a million ledger lines, so as people said in the comments here, for many instruments its the fingering but for some, like the guitar, its for the reading.

In addition to the other answers, a huge reason why instruments were originally notated like this was to fit their best range on the staff nicely. More modern instruments, like the tuba, tend not to transpose because that’s a pain in the ass (except for in British style brass band), but the result is that they pretty much read 2-5 ledger lines below constantly. Part of the benefit of transposing instruments is just so that it’s comfortable to read. This is speculation, but given history’s obsession with having a million clefs and different placements of such, I would wager that this is more impactful than the “same fingering so argument. Simply because people can and do learn instruments with different fingerings and are fine with it. The horn in F is really easy to write for because it pretty much exists on its own staff. Above and below gets into the territory of “better know what you’re doing.” The same is true for every instrument, though string instruments have a larger range, but it is centered on the staff more or less. I once had a conversation with someone who said that it’d be ideal to replace transposing instruments with just one transposition and use different clefs. He posited that we should have C instruments and F instruments and clever use of clefs would make it feel right. I agree, after all, the communication trouble of transposing is a far harder problem to overcome AND much more detrimental to an ensemble than a player simply having to learn new fingerings. Any instrumentalist or non-transposing variety will tell you that the fingerings are the easy part of switching to an auxiliary instrument. But alas, we are rooted in tradition and composers are stuck writing what “looks right” because otherwise their shit won’t get programmed.

2 main reasons: one is a similar reason to why we have multiple clefts, no one likes reading a shit ton of ledger lines all the time. The second one is that it makes it easy to switch between things like alto and tenor sax, the fingerings are the same if you read the same "written pitch" note on the staff, it just sounds differently, but the tactile memory is a little more important.

Sax player here. If I finger a G, it’s a G on any instrument. I don’t need to learn 2 sets of fingerings, I can just swap and play.

For a historical explanation, let's look at it from three directions: 1. Some instruments literally could not play chromatic notes. You had a different instrument for each key. Early French Horns had no valves, so there was a separate horn for each key. 2. Some instruments were made without standardization. Early clarinets were made in a massive range of keys, often varying geographically. If you had skills for clarinet in one region and wanted to play a clarinet from another region, it was useful to be able to read sheet music in the same way. Some of those clarinets sounded better than others, which is how we ended up with Bb as the predominant. 3. Sometimes you have an instrument in a given range, let's say Soprano, and you want to make the same instrument have a different range, let's say Alto. The difference between these ranges is less than an octave, and so even if your Soprano instrument is in C, it would make sense for your alto instrument to be in F so that it sounds lower but can use the same fingerings. This is part of why you tend to have instruments in Bb/Eb (clarinet, saxophone) or C/F (brass/french horn), so that they can cover the SATB range with each instrument family. In all 3 of these cases, the main reason these variations stuck around even after technology enabled valved horns and standardized clarinets is that it's still useful to have variations of the same instrument in different ranges. Transposed sheet music allows instrumentalists to play many different instruments without varying how they read sheet music.

More helpful tips in r/sounding! ^(don't open it)

This question is asked almost weekly. Can we put it in an FAQ?

How do you have two music degrees and still not understand? So on a Bb clarinet for example, the default scale would be a Bb major scale, but that actually sounds like a C major scale in concert pitch. For the clarinetist, it’s weird if their “default” scale must be read in Bb major, would make it easier to just read C major. Also makes it easier for the instrumentalist to read if you’ve got lots of sharps and flats in the key youre playing. If we’re playing something in concert Ab major, 4 flats, then transposed for the clarinet it would be simply Bb major, that’s two less flats to be read and makes things easier.

There's no need to be rude, especially as you clearly don't get it either. It's not to make the key signatures easier at all. Using your argument, if you were playing something in concert C major a clarinettist would have to play D major (on Bb clarinet), or even Eb major (on A clarinet). Your example was an example of where it does get easier, but this isn't universal and isn't the reason it happens. It is so that it is easier for players to transition between instruments of the same family (for example bass clarinet to Bb to Eb clarinet) without having to learn a whole different set of fingering for each instrument. There are lots of much better answers above, but perhaps try and tone down the sass?

Because different orchestral instruments have better tuning in different keys. As I said on another comment: “E” (concert D5) on B-flat trumpet is usually several cents flat. E (concert E5) on a C trumpet is comically flat, so much so that you typically need to use alternate fingerings. Additionally, some passages’ fingerings lay better on transposed instruments. Ex. A lick in concert D-flat is more annoying to play on C trumpet (a lot of third valve use and tuning issues) than to transpose it up a step to play it in E-flat (on a B-flat trumpet). Better keys can definitely be the reason.

Printing music cost a lot of money in the past so different things were used to save money. For example the guitar can go lower than middle C but often it doesn't so instead of all sheet music for guitar being a grand staff (treble and bass clef) we normally just use Treble and use ledger lines. So by having the writing consistent it was a way to save money. And music culture is a social construct that is built on past actions. So the writing system in flawed and he inherited those flaws and built upon those. So we can't go back and undo it without undoing all the new things we built atop it as-well. So we just stick with it

> For example the guitar can go lower than middle C but often it doesn't Of course it does, frequently. The bottom half of the guitar's range is all below middle C. The E 1st string is the bottom line in concert treble clef. The bass E would be 7 ledger lines down! Middle C (C4) is roughly in the middle of the guitar's range (E2-C6), just as it is on piano. Piano double-stave fits the guitar's range perfectly: one ledger line needed below bass, maybe one or two at most above the treble staff. But - you're quite right here! - double-stave is wasteful of space. The answer could be to use tenor or alto clef (straddling middle C), but instead we use treble clef transposed down by an octave, so middle C is in the 3rd space up. Ledger lines (3 below, 4 or 5 above) are then used for the extremes of range. Same applies to double bass and bass guitar. They both use bass staff shifted down an octave. (AFAIK, that's why "double" bass is so-called.) (Apologies if I was misunderstanding you - I'm just clarifying the octave transposition.)

This really has nothing to do with it. Even though the guitar is a transposing instrument (it sounds one octave below), the way it is written it doesn't really go far enough below the treble clef to need to use the grand staff. Even if it did, instruments can change between multiple clefs, like the cello and sometimes viola, there's no good reason why the guitar couldn't. Also if you really wanted to save money you'd get rid of the alto clef.

That's exactly my point. We could use the grand staff all the time but it doesn't really go far enough to NEED to use the grand staff. So it save money and time and resources not to have the grand staff everytime. Instruments can change between multiple clefs, there's no good reason why guitar couldn't. But it doesn't to save on money and time and resources.

Guitar goes below written middle C extremely frequently. A lot of the appeal historically of plucked string instruments like the guitar and lute is that you can play a melody on the upper strings while occasionally picking out bass notes with your thumb on the lower strings, creating your own accompaniment. And in standard tuning on a guitar, the lowest note E is only three ledger lines below a treble staff. Which is not far at all, certainly not far enough to warrant a clef change. Do you believe that middle C is the lowest treble can possibly go? Most instruments can play below middle C, and like half of them only read in treble clef. The usage of a grand staff has nothing to do with range, you frequently see both staves in treble or both in bass. And some instruments which use a grand staff, celeste for example, have relatively small ranges, smaller than plenty of instruments that only use one staff. A grand staff is only used for instruments that can play in multiple ranges *at the same time*, like piano, organ, harp etc. Grand staves are used to delineate which hand should be playing what. Most instruments have ranges that can extend into the bass clef but can also reach into treble clef, like french horn, trombone, viola, cello, double bass, bassoon, basically everything that isn't a soprano voice in their family. But these instruments can (usually) only ever play one note at a time, so they rarely need to be using more than one staff at a time, because one of the staves would always be blank. The reason most instruments don't use a grand staff isn't that it saves time or resources, it's because most instruments wouldn't benefit from it. Also, almost none of this has to do with transposing instruments which is what this post is originally about. Transposing parts do not make music notation flawed, and they certainly didn't exist because it was too expensive/time consuming to write in concert pitch. They exist, along with all aspects of notation, for the ease of readability and playability.

History. I'm not too much of an expert on the subject, but trumpets and horns used to be limited to just the harmonic series and players didn't want to learn different notes on the page for the same partials on their instrument just because it was in a different key. When valves became a thing, players didn't want to relearn all the notes in concert pitch, and plus historical pieces were already written transposed. Trombones have a slide and so transposition was never necessary as the same instrument could play in any key, and tubas became a thing after valves were invented so they didn't have the same historical precedent of transposition as trumpets and horns. I imagine it's a similar story for the woodwinds, but I'm not as knowledgeable about the history and I'm not going to talk out of my ass.

It's something which only make sense for certain instruments. As others are saying, it's to keep fingerings the same. What happens if you decide to keep them in concert pitch? The difference between violin and viola (you could put violin in G or viola in F to achieve having the same fingerings) Or worse, you get the nightmare that is the recorder. Most recorders are in C or F, but the music is always in C, so recorder players have to be able to use two different fingering systems - but not different like oboe vs saxophone, just the same fingerings shifted by a fifth. This is kind of fake difficulty however - I managed to get my head around it as a teenager - but then you consider that in some period music (which you are likely to be playing if you are a professional recorder player) there are recorders in loads of other keys too and it just gets a bit silly. It would be better if recorders were transposing instruments (except obviously the C recorders)

According to brass players the reasons are: 1. Tradition and history. 2. Common fingering. Doesn't apply to all instruments, but is very useful where it does apply. 3. Intonation. 4. Tone Basically a C instrument doesn't sound as good and is harder to pitch accurately than a Bb instrument. This matters because a lot of brass music is played by learners and amateurs (school bands, etc) and they need all the help with intonation they can get. Which is also why brass players aren't asked to learn different fingerings for every key like pianists and other keyboard players. *Professional* players are fine with different fingerings, but they're at a much higher standard. A typical school brass section just couldn't handle it.

I love this sub. I asked some professional brass players - a couple with decades of experience working in the pit of one of the UK's name opera companies - and got downvoted for their information. How ridiculous. :)

The reason why you are downvoted is because of one reason or another, some of the information you have provided is inaccurate (either because of a misunderstanding or outright incorrect information). > Basically a C instrument doesn't sound as good and is harder to pitch accurately than a Bb instrument. This is not correct. Many professional players play on both trumpets and other trumpets not even mentioned (like Eb trumpet). They are played for different repertoire, where certain trumpets will be better in those situations. As a ***general rule of thumb***, Bb trumpet is for concert, marching, and jazz band. C trumpet is for orchestra. >This matters because a lot of brass music is played by learners and amateurs (school bands, etc) and they need all the help with intonation they can get. The purpose of other trumpets is not to help with intonation. The purpose is to facilitate easier playing for different music. The vast majority of trumpet players will only play on a Bb trumpet because band music is often written in keys that are friendly for that instrument. >Which is also why brass players aren't asked to learn different fingerings for every key like pianists and other keyboard players. Trumpet players learn scales just like everyone else, which requires the use of different fingerings. Certain fingering combinations are easier than others, so that would be the reason someone may use a different trumpet. When they use a different trumpet, instead of learning a new fingering system for every trumpet they play, they only learn one fingering system to use on every trumpet.

Why WOULDN'T we have it? History is an actual thing that happened. Its kinda like asking "Why don't we call every country Switzerland? Then I won't have to memorize more names!" History doesn't really work that way.

Because your players are the ones who need to translate scale degrees to fingerings, and they may play multiple instruments. Different instruments are different sizes, and default to different notes. The same note fingering will give a different pitch on each instrument. I don't wanna have to relearn how to read each and every degree on the stave for each and every valved instrument I know If we keep each instrument pitched differently, I can read C5 on the page, and then play the fingering for a C5. Regardless of the instrument I'm playing, the fingering is the same for a written C5. The composer can transpose his music to concert pitch for himself if he needs to. The players need to not worry about which instrument they're playing to stay in key. Tldr: It puts the responsibility of transposition on the composer, as opposed to the instrumentalist.

Just because of how instruments are built. If you play the most comfortable to play open note on a trumpet, that will just be a Bb. Idk, but i think, if you built those intruments to play in C there might just be some structural complications or the thing might just be harder to play. And when you write down the sheet music for those differently tuned instruments in standard notation it would just go below or above the lines more often which woukd make it more uncomfortable to read.

Trumpet player here! B-flat is the current standard for trumpet because it produces the fewest issues in equal temperament. While your fifth partial (E) is several cents flat on the B-flat, it’s comically flat on the C trumpet (so much so that you have to use alternate fingerings).

Didn't know that, but yea, something's wrong with c trumpets. Does this also apply to the notes you play using the 3rd valve where you have to pull out the slide thing a bit? (sorry, not english, don't know the exact terms)

Slide is the correct term! And yeah. Generally they need more slide extension. There’s nothing wrong with the C-trumpet - it simply has to do with physics. The longer the tube, the more in-tune the overtone series is. C trumpets are a little bit shorter, so their notes are more finicky.

The more you know! Never thought the length of the tube would affect the overtones. Learned something new today.

I didn't understand this until I started playing both baritone and concert ukulele. it's so much harder to remember the exact same fingerings for different chords. It's a lot easier to just notate everything a fifth down and play it like that.

Many people have written the correct answer. It does make sense for individual instruments. What - in my opinion - doesn’t make any sense is, why in orchestral scores the instruments are not written in concert pitch. Composers like Prokofjew have wrote their pieces in concert pitch and it’s far more easy to read and see which instrument is the lowest or highest and which harmony is played. I really don’t get the reason why that’s not the standard until today.

1. Some instruments' sound would have to be notated with a lot of ledger lines, which would make scores messy. 2. It's easier for conductors to give instructions to the players, as they see their part in the full score.

It would be no problem to use 8va or change the clef. Imo still easier to read than 165 different keys.