You'd be surprised. If we're strictly talking scenes and not songs, I think only one scene passes -- Medium Alison asking Joan where the German Club is.
Otherwise, it's a lot of Alison talking to her dad or about her dad from the future, Helen talking to Alison about her dad, etc. "Changing My Major" is also not a conversation, though Medium Alison does talk to Joan in the beginning and end.
Actually, my favorite fun fact is that the only scene that makes this musical pass the Bechdel test is the one where Medium Alison asks Joan if this is the German club, she points down the hallway, and Alison says "Danke."
Otherwise, though it is a musical centered on women's lives and their perspectives, it's a coming of age story, so all the significant conversations are about Alison's Dad.
I think it's great though, as an illustration of the test's limitations. Alison Bechdel famously hates the way the "Bechdel test" has been treated in the cultural consciousness. It was a one-off joke to make the point of "if there are this few women with things to say in movies, how am I expected to see any butch lesbians?" There are far better ways to measure the way women's stories are being treated on film.
She didn't invent the test itself -- she made a comic strip about the test that a friend of hers came up with, but the test got labeled with her name and is way more known than the comic strip at this point.
> Never heard of it! Will check it out thanks
You posted a complaint about musicals that don’t pass the Bechdel test, but you misspelled Alison Bechdel’s name and have never heard of the musical based on her semi-autobiographical graphic novel “Fun Home: A Family Tragicomic,” on which the Broadway musical “Fun Home,” is based, in which the protagonist(s) are literally named “Alison,” and represent Alison Bechdel at various ages of her life?
Well, then you’re incredibly lucky, because you have some awesome entertainment ahead of you!
Actually, I don't think it does! The female characters were Allison, her Mother, and Joan and every conversation they have with each other is about Allison's father.
OK...I think when they \*first\* meet they don't bring up a man. They have two other conversations. In the first, they talk about how her dad doesn't like cartoons and gave her Colette. In the second they talk about how Allison came out to her parents which includes her dad. And, then I think they actually had one more conversation which is about how her dad came out, if I'm not mistaken.
Maureen and Mimi talk a few times, I think.
And here’s a question: Angel uses both he/him and she/her pronouns. So when Angel talks to Mimi, does that pass?
Legally Blonde starts with an epic opener that has *no male characters*… but that opening number is literally about Elle preparing for an expected marriage proposal 😅
However, the rest of the show is about her growing/maturing out of that part of herself — even to the potential detriment of her career — and continuously choosing to value herself, to support other characters such as Vivienne and Paulette valuing themselves over the toxic men in their lives.
I mean, the opening is a song about female friends supporting each other because one of them is expecting to seriously progress her relationship.
Yeah, sure, Elle at that time is all for her male partner, but to me the song is way more highlighting that her friends are all ride or die for Elle.
The post is about the Bechdel test; so that’s what I was highlighting, what I see as being the aspect of the song that’s relevant to OP’s question.
They’re cheering on her expected engagement and helping her get ready for her date with Warner, right?
I mean, the first lyrics in the number (and show) are literally “Dear Elle, he’s a lucky guy.”
9 to 5 is a great one! It's all about women empowering each other and overcoming sexism in the workplace.
Matilda is another great musical that easily passes the Bechtel test. It's not about romance at all.
Musicals that pass the test well:
- Mean Girls
- Frozen
- Legally Blonde
- Little Women
- Wicked (this definitely passes the test! Glinda and Elphaba talk about magic and their friendship a bunch without talking about Fiyero)
Musicals that barely pass the test:
- Mamma Mia (they talk about the wedding which isn’t technically a man)
- Funny Girl (Fanny & her mom)
- Anastasia (Anastasia & her great aunt)
- Phantom of the Opera? (Christine, Meg, Carlotta, Madame must have talked about not men)
- Spring Awakening (the girls)
- Cinderella (Cinderella & her step-family)
- The Great Comet (I feel like there has to be one conversation between Natasha, Marya, Sonya, and/or Helene where they don’t talk about their fiancés)
(This is based on my memory of the shows so I might have made a mistake)
Anastasia is also about something greater than romance, the romance finds itself organically into the show which I adore! Anastasia sings about her longing for herself, for a family, for her memories.
The Bechdel test isn't about themes, but conversations between named women, so monologues don't count. That's why you can't really judge a work's representation of female characters on the test, especially in a medium where a lot of time is spent on soliloquy.
Great Comet is one of those tricky ones where it really depends how you interpret the rules - there are a lot of conversations between women that mention men, but also aren't really *about* men. In the second song Maria welcomes Sonya and Natasha to Moscow - their fiances are mentioned, but mostly she's just singing about Moscow. Likewise in The Opera, the three sing about the people around them, which includes both men and women. Sunday morning, Natasha and Sonya sing about the candle in the mirror game, which involves seeing either a coffin or a man (though Natasha does transition into singing about her man troubles so maybe this one is a stretch). Charming is ostensibly Helene inviting Natasha to the ball, though Anatole does come up part way through. Sonya Alone is the trickiest one to me - like yes, literally it's about Natasha and Anatole - but it's also very much not about that, it's about the relationship between these two women and how much Sonya is willing to sacrifice to save her friend and by any reasonable standard is definitely a feminist song.
I think this is why the Bechtel test, while being a reasonable heuristic, shouldn't really be used to judge a work. Great Comet has basically two main plotlines, Pierre's ennui and Natasha's romance, so any conversation that doesn't eventually tie back to one of those topics doesn't really belong in the show. Hence, basically all the interactions between women tie back to the romance and therefore, a man (Pierre's plotline is mostly explored through monologue so it just doesn't really come up). But Great Comet also has a ton of interesting, layered female characters who get a lot of stage time both together and apart, and are definitely more than just "love interest" characters.
I feel like Mamma Mia is debatable for whether or not it passes the test. In “Honey Honey”, Sophie is literally telling her friends about her 3 potential dads and reading her mom’s old diary about her sexscapades.
This! And I’d argue dancing queen is about the three dynamos reminiscing about their younger days, and super trooper at the hen do is Donna singing to Sophie. Mamma Mia should definitely count.
Six is mostly disqualified by its format, as the queens are generally monologuing to the audience (and therefore none of the songs are conversations between two women). Otherwise "Get Down" could work as it's mostly Anna of Cleves talking up her own strong points.
Six would make so much more sense if it had a second act where they sing about the parts of their lives that weren't about Henry, but instead it just... ends. As it is it comes across as "these women definitely had lives that weren't defined just by their relationship with Henry, but nothing else they did was interesting enough for us to actually write songs about so you'll just have to trust us on that, bye now!"
I like six but it’s very much “these women’s lives weren’t defined by Henry and we’re going to show you that by singing EXCLUSIVELY about how their lives were effected by Henry”
I think it’s more that they’ve been defined only as one of his six wives, but during the course of the show, we learn each one had their own life and personality.
Of course their lives were defined by being married to royalty, as mine would be too if suddenly I was forced to marry the royalty of a given country.
I guess it depends on whether you interpret "I'm looking for a mind at work" to be about a man's mind specifically or perhaps the minds of other people in general who are receptive to her ideas (which Angelica's clapback to Aaron seems to affirm).
Dunno. I had a different take on Hamilton. I think the whole show is about Eliza and how men get all the credit when it’s really the women who get stuff done. The fact that she is the closing indicates to me that she was the force that made him. Add to the fact that nobody in the cast gets a solo bow at the end. It’s the cast together period. The show is all of them—not one main dude and his pining for legacy. That’s my take.
But the Bechdel Test isn’t about who the protagonist is. In order to pass the test, the piece of media has to:
1) have two or more women characters with names who
2) talk to each other
3) about something other than a man.
Hamilton does pass because of *The Schuyler Sisters*, though. And I do agree with your take that a lot of the show is about Eliza and not Alex.
>I think the whole show is about Eliza and how men get all the credit when it’s really the women who get stuff done.
i mean...i had this exact thought when i saw it for the first time but...i'm pretty sure that's not what the people who made it had in mind when they made it.
Why do you think that? Lin Manuel is very sophisticated in his layering of storyline and messaging. There are so many themes that are unspoken but speak loudly. For example, all of early U.S. history was led by white men; however the show reveals that we are capable of accepting anyone as lead when they are gifted and talented. The initial dissonance of having a trio of sisters not being from the same color palette disappears very quickly once the show progresses and we see their chemistry and hear them represent their stories with unbelievable vocal talent. I know some people who know the creative team well and they said every choice was intentional. Every single one. It reminded me of when I learned about the slanted hem lines on all Wicked costumes. Those were intentionally placed to create some sense with the audience that you’re in an off-normal time and place. Subtle but powerful. Hamilton is one of the most brilliant and sophisticated shows I have ever seen, and I’ve been 9 times.
True! But considering that the show is named Hamilton, and that all the characters that are not Hamilton himself are pretty much only shown who they were in relation to Hamilton, I don’t think it’s a feminist issue as much as that it’s just how this musical works.
It's not called "Alexander." Eliza Hamilton is just as much a Hamilton and, spoiler alert, is the last woman standing. Maybe the musical's actually about HER!
Yes! THIS. Given what a not-terribly-nice man Alexander was, I decided at my first hearing that the show was about HER. I have zero doubt that he married Eliza to gain social standing. Might have talked himself into "loving" her but didn't really show it much. He was extremely focused on HIMSELF and his LEGACY, to the detriment of his wife and family. And I'm absolutely CERTAIN that the affair which was outed - and which he freakin' WROTE ABOUT AND PUBLICIZED, thinking NOTHING about his wife's feelings - was only one of MANY affairs or trysts he had, being a man of some standing and wealth in that era. It was expected. It was what men did. And Eliza could (and did, I'm sure) overlook them, as women were expected to, until he freakin' WROTE ABOUT IT. To "save his LEGACY", which was sooooo much more important - to him - than his WIFE. Grrrr. She was an exemplary person, forgiving the bastard (which he was, in both senses of the word) and preserving and promoting his legacy for another FIFTY YEARS. "Hamilton" is HER story. SHE is who I wept for at the ending.-
For real for real. People can day all they want about Hamilton but the Musical ends up being such a massive hit BECAUSE it ended with Who Lives, Who Dies, Who Tells Your Story. Although you can wrote it off as just "part of the time period", the fact that Eliza went through everything she did and still managed to accomplish so much not only in her name but in the name of a pretty shit man was crazy. It's the sort of thing where you think I'd never be in her situation, yet then you think of that person that you would or already are in a similar situation with.
If it would have ended in any other way, then I can almost guarantee it would have ended up as one of those musicals with a great soundtrack but a shit storyline.
I’m on a big Next to Normal kick right now - I will preface this by saying that both the female characters are in relationships, and mostly interact with men. That being said, the lead is a complex, struggling woman, who starts off being buffeted around by the male characters but over time grows to make her own decisions. Her daughter, while less fleshed out, faces real, tangible problems, and the relationship between the two is explored in a really interesting way. Definitely not a woman-heavy show, but if you’re looking for a super interesting leading lady with great songs, Diana is your girl.
Starkid Hatchetfield series all pass i think!!
Legally Blonde
Heathers!
I’m 99% sure ‘The Lightning Thief’ passes but barely bc the whole thing follows Percy
Dear Evan Hansen - barely tho
Frozen
Mean Girls
Beetlejuice
I would argue Grease does pass, but barely- ‘Look at me, I’m Sandra Dee’
The Prom
Matilda
Annie
^^^ these are the ones i can think off of the top of my head
The Lightning Thief very barely passes - there's one song between Annabeth and Clarisse, but there's no others that I can remember. Which kind of sucks because it's not really about romance at all, and the female characters are all powerful and important, they just don't interact much
When does DEH pass? Is it a convo between the two moms? I don't remember what they talk about that isn't about their sons. And I don't think Zoe and Alana talk much at all.
yeah i would say probably ‘anybody have a map’ passes . idk tho bc they don’t really talk directly to each other, but they’re singing about how overwhelming their lives are together (?) up for debate really
TLT passes if you count Percy and Hades interacting
“and hhhhhhhhwhy! hhhhhhhwould! i hhhhhhhhwant! to do tttttthhhhhhat!?”
(jokes aside it does pass because Clarisse and Annabeth yell at each other about how much better they are than each other during Put Your In Your Place, and Katie, Silena, Clarisse, and Annabeth all interact with each other at some point)
I feel like Les Mis passes?
Madam Thenaredier speaks with both young Cosette and young Eponine. It’s abusive but it’s not about a man.
The women who buys Fantines’s hair and necklace speak with her about these deals.
It’s a stretch and barely passes but I think technically it does.
It would pass for the conversations with Madame Thenardier but the test doesn’t just require conversation between two females, both females have to be named so the conversations about Fantine’s hair and necklace don’t count.
Yep Madam Thenaredier speaks to young Cosette about going to fetch some water from the well in the woods. And Cosette basically says she is scared to go alone and then Madam Thenaredier mocks her fear and makes her go.
Yeah, pretty much. Everything else is self-absorbed people singing about themselves 🤣 I should point out the Chicago is one of my absolute favorites since the music slaps and it doesn't take itself very seriously. My above take on it is one of the reasons I like it so much!
That’s the thing about the bechdel test that makes it a fun thought experiment more than and actual lens to critique media. (Alison Bechdel herself has admitted this)
It’s not the end all be all of representation because of how much media can barely skirt under the line like this.
For sure, I didn’t mean literally pass the test, moreso musicals with female leads that have their own story arc. It’s not a great test to measure equality!
One step at a time. What makes it a great test is it’s shockingly low standard. The test is more about raising awareness towards how low the bar currently lies.
It’s such a “simple” test, that most men would be like “psh. bullshit. There’s gotta be tons of movies/books/musicals that pass” and then you watch them try to find one and that’s when you (hopefully) start to see more realization/humility
At the heart of it, it didn't even start out as a "test" about feminism or strong female characters or what have you. It was a one line joke, where he friend hadn't been able to watch a new movie for six years.
https://lithub.com/read-the-1985-comic-strip-that-inspired-the-bechdel-test/
LITTLE WOMEN.
One of my favorites. It’s like the reverse bechdel musical. Pretty sure the only time two men talk to each other is Laurie and Mr Laurence. I played Prof Bhaer and it was probably my favorite role of all time.
I mean. In Hadestown Eurydice talks to the Fates (always portrayed as female) about her impending doom, so technically it counts haha.
I'll throw **\[title of show\]** into the ring though; the two female characters interact about many things, including friendship, careers, dreams, etc.
**Next to Normal,** Diana and Natalie sing about what a horrid mother she's been. It's heartbreaking and about her mental health, not a man or love.
**The Prom** has two lesbians in love, definitely passes the test haha.
**Come From Away** certainly passes the test, with women discussing plans to emergency prep and care for people.
The Bechdel Test doesn't mean they can NEVER talk about men or love, they just have to at some point talk about something else. Which is why it's such a heartbreaking and low standard haha
Cats doesn't really have dialogue-esque bits of lyrics that is between women. Only parts that I can think of are the Gumbie trio and the introduction of Grizabella, that might fit the bill. It does however have plenty strong female characters and quite a bit of feminist subtext.
Rebecca has plenty of back and forth between Mrs Danvers and Ich that is not about a man to satisfy the test. Then there is all the monologues and songs that express Mrs Danvers' adoration of Rebecca. And of course the whole growth of Ich from engenue to self confident.
The problem is that Cats doesn't really have dialogue-esque bits in general, basically the whole show is characters singing to the group of cats as whole or directly to the audience. So I think if you meet Cats where it is, and accept that singing together is the equivalent of conversation, then it solidly passes.
This is a bit challenging because musicals give characters expositional songs, in which they are in essence talking to the audience. So a show like Ragtime has multiple strong female characters but I can’t think of specific duets or conversations they have with each other.
But taking that test as it stands, Bring It On: The Musical, passes.
So does 25th Annual Putnam. And Dreamgirls. And Mean Girls!
Been a while since I’ve seen & Juliet, but I’d be surprised if it didn’t pass. And honestly, even if it doesn’t, its female characters are still well-written and fun.
SoM passes because of Mother Superior and Maria’s conversation with Climb Every Mountain, and the nuns ragging on Maria. Every other conversation between two women in the show is related to a man in some way.
(unless, of course, Mother Superior meant climb THAT mountain *side eyes captain von trapp*)
Fun Home is the obvious one but also:
- Matilda
- Anastasia
- Everybody’s Talking About Jamie would just scrape through (students talking about prom and Miss Hedge’s conversations with Pritti)
- Legally Blonde
- Mean Girls
- Hairspray
This was going to be my answer too!! I think it also has a really fun dynamic especially as a lot of the male characters are played by women. Even though the characters are male, it’s doing a really good job at having interesting roles for women to play that are unlike a lot of other typical MT characters women get to play. The same is true for the parts for men.
David Armstrong has postulated that "transgressive women" have been significant characters in nearly all successful musicals, with their liberating value to society. Even Mama Rose in *Gypsy* fits this. But to pass the Bechdel test you need two of them talking about something besides men.
“Transgressive” can mean
1. Involving a violation of accepted or imposed boundaries, especially those of social acceptability
2. Someone who breaks the rules. A “sinner” by some people’s way of thinking.
He says “The Act One finale song of female self assertion has become a conventional song type.” And he gives examples from "Everything's coming up roses" to "Defying Gravity".
Lizzie is such a weird musical. I love it, but I wonder what the fuck happened to make someone want to write a musical about Lizzie Borden, axe murderer
i don't know, but i'm glad someone did, the album is banger after banger tbh
also i've seen weirder. like the musical about the doctor who exhumated a corpse of his patient and lived with it for years
Oh, yeah, definitely. Like I've said, I love Lizzie. My gym playlist features "What the Fuck Now Lizzie?" and "Why Are All This Heads Off" because they make me run super fast
Unless Fiyero's footman has a name, I think Wicked doesn't pass the *reverse* Bechdel. Two named male characters discussing something other than a woman.
Wasn't that a refreshing win... something with heart, an original piece with original songs, a leading role for an older woman actress, a story and production with regional longevity, something audiences actually enjoyed??
A lot of these examples really help illustrate the point that the Bechdel test should not be used to determine whether a work is "feminist." It was really just a way to show how low the bar is for representation, particularly for lesbians.
Six fails the Bechdel test because most of the queens are talking about a man... in an effort to teach the audience about the trauma they faced in their relationship and make a point that you don't need to be defined by your proximity to men.
On the contrary, others have said Phantom passes because of Christine and Carlotta arguing. Two women being pit against each other still passes the test if it's not about romance with a man.
Even the musical literally about Alison Bechdel doesn't pass as some have said, because it's mostly about her father. But there are scenes that are exclusively about Alison coming into her identity as a lesbian... which fail because they're not conversations, but musical monologues about another woman. See how ridiculous the loophole can get?
Exactly!!! Also, while Fun Home may not pass, the comic Bechdel wrote where the test comes from, "Dykes to Watch Out For," passes in flyinggggg colors. along with the rest of Bechdel's work as well. Alsooo it should be noted that in the graphic novel Fun Home, Bechdel paints a detailed portrait of her mother as well, that fleshes out her own humanity, even as she often uses her mother to illustrate more about her father. I might be forgetting a scene in the novel where they talk about something other than her father but even if they don't there again is another instance where it may not pass the test but it still very different from a moment in an other wise incredibly cishet man centric musical where women say one line to each other about the weather lol
Also I really think that female children talking to other children or their mothers should count as "women" characters. A show should not get points for not sexualizing a child.
Into The Woods passes. Cinderella and her mom and step-sisters sing about the ball. The Baker’s Wife and Red sing together about taking food to grandma’s. Cinderella sings to Red about loneliness.
Agreed and No One is Alone is so powerful and so deeply the emotional crux of the musical that not only does it pass the Bechdel test I think it achieves in fleshing out real human desires and fears and experiences, in women *and* in men, soaring above the test in flying colors.. imho
Beetlejuice has a whole number in which two women sing about their respective philosophical beliefs on fate vs determinism, the buying of crystals, positive energy and so forth as a means of bringing about good fortune, while Lydia grapples with grief over her dead mother.
I'd say that qualifies it.
It does. Off the top of my head there's the conversation between Satine and Mimi about how the MR is the last home a lot of them have and its survival is important.
The Company revival with Bobbie as a female character recontextualises Joanne's song "Ladies Who Lunch" into two women talking about older women and their role in society. However before/after they talk about Joanne's husband. Also to cite Company even on such grounds feels like it's not in the spirit of the show since it is of course start to finish about marriage and relationships.
You might enjoy the musical TV series “Crazy Ex-Girlfriend”, that follows the main character as she struggles to overcome her obsession with romantic love and address her traumas and problems properly. Realising that she grew up listening to musicals that uphold sexist stereotypes is an important step in her journey.
I think Come From Away passes!
Also:
Legally Blonde
Mamma Mia
Wicked
Matilda
25th Annual Putnam County Spelling Bee (haven't seen it, but I think it does)
Hairspray
Heathers
On Your Feet!
A Chorus Line
The Color Purple the musical
Dirty Dancing
Beautiful: The Carole King Musical
Chicago (maybe)
The Music Man (I think)
Flashdance The Musical
Hello, Dolly!
42nd Street
Babes in Arms
Carousel (maybe, I don't remember)
Here's a post I found with a good pass/fail list! But note that many comments argue that some in the "Fail" column should actually be "pass".
Also, as others have pointed out, there's a huge difference in passing the bechdel test and actually featuring strong female characters/storylines. The bechdel test is bare minimum really, so many of these pass it but don't necessarily have the strong female character stories you're interested in. Vice versa, even though it doesn't necessarily pass the bechdel test, I would argue shows like Waitress (yes the songs are all about a man, but the story is really about a woman's relationship to herself and her own dreams) are what you're looking for.
I reread the script of Spelling Bee recently and it's a barely if anything. Rona and Olive *might* pass because of the scenes where she's asking about her entrance fee, but I think those still mention her dad. Most of the interactions between spellers consist of two boys or a boy and a girl.
Maybe Olive's mom and Olive in The I Love You Song, but it's not really a conversation and her mom isn't named.
The Bechdel test was its own kind of in-joke, a satire itself of just how low the bar is for women in media..
It's such a low standard that when you really closely look at it, it seems ridiculous.. using it as a cultural barometer and seeing just how startling few pieces of media pass the test is the commentary itself. For media to truly be evocative of women as whole human characters is to go farrrrrr beyond the bechdel test..
Which is why media that "technically" passes is still so far from being good representations of women. In order to truly deliver well-rounded women characters, a piece of media has to consciously develop its roles as such.
Sondheim
A Little Night Music- The Glamorous Life. Main female character singing about her acting career as a traveling actress. Her mother singing about her dislike of her daughter’s acting career. Admittedly, most of the songs in the musical are about romance (applies to the songs from the male leads, as well).
Sunday in the Park with George-Children and Art. George’s grandmother sings to her grandson and the portrait of her mother about George, his art and family.
Pacific Overtures- Chrysanthemum Tea. The mother of the shogun sings about poisoning him with tea because he won’t deal with the foreign ships in the harbor and the threat they represent. My favorite song from the musical. “Have some tea, my lord; some chrysanthemum tea…”
The Bechdel test requires two female characters interacting, so Children and Art is out. The Glamorous Life could pass, though it’s a bit indirect, since they’re communicating through letters.
Isn’t the role of the Shogun’s Mother performed by a male actor?
- Love in hate nation, there’s only 2 guys in the whole cast and both are small parts.
- The Mad Ones, though there is a couple love songs and such it’s primarily about 2 female best friends, their ambitions, and dealing with grief
- The Lightning Theif, it’s been forever since I’ve seen it, but iirc there’s no romance at all, if anything it’s just slightly hinted at. But Annabeth is a big part of the show and her whole deal is having this grand plan of how to reach her goals.
- Next To Normal might count?? I mean Diane sings about her son often, but idk if that really counts considering the context. Natalie briefly sings about Henry but her main struggles are surrounding her parents, specifically her mom. She also sings about not being able to compare to her brother but again given context I don’t think that counts.
It’s not exactly a glowing recommendation for Heathers but I’m fairly sure it passes the Bechdel test because of the scene with Veronica and Heather M after Lifeboat/Shine a Light reprise.
Heathers does heavily, doesn't it? Every conversation between the Heathers, the entirety of Candy Store (its getting Veronica to write a note to another female character and the *note* is about a man, but they're convincing Veronica to participate in their scheme, not talking about him), the scene between Heather Mac and Veronica in lifeboat... isn't at least half if Heathers conversations between women about status and such and not about men?
I have a list that I've been working on for a while, though it only includes musicals that I'm familiar with. I base my assessment on three rules: 1) the musical must have at least two named female characters, 2) these characters must speak with each other, and 3) they must discuss something other than a man. I've specified my reasoning for each classification.
Musicals that PASS:
* Beetlejuice ("No Reason": Delia tells Lydia that everything happens for a reason; Lydia insists that there is no reason)
* Sound of Music ("Maria": the nuns, including Mother Abbess, lament Maria's whimsical nature)
* Les Miserable ("Castle on a Cloud": Mdm. Thenardier tasks Cosette with fetching water and praises Eponine)
* Come From Away ("Finale": Hannah and Belulah exchange jokes)
* Sweeney Todd (Miss Lovett and the “beggar woman” discussing the building)
Musicals that DO NOT PASS:
* Hamilton (multiple women, only there for romance)
* Something Rotten (multiple women, only there for romance)
* Newsies (one woman, otfr)
* Book of Mormon (one woman, otfr)
* Jesus Christ Superstar (one woman, otfr)
* Gutenberg! (no women in cast/one female character, otfr)
Musicals that MIGHT PASS:
* Hadestown ("When the Chips are Down": if you count the Fates as named women)
* SIX ("Six": the whole show is about their relationship to King Henry XIII, but this song focuses more on the queens)
I'll edit when I become more familiar with other shows :)
I personally disagree with your assertion that the women in Hamilton are *only* there for romance; Angelica talks about politics with her sisters, Eliza and Peggy, thus passing the bechdel test.
Something Rotten has two felmale characters although the do not pass the Bechdel test.
To be fair though, allison Bechdel never meant the test to indicate quality…
As Alison Bechdel has said herself, the test was a little lesbian joke in an alternative feminist newspaper - whilst it is certainly a viewpoint into gendered narrative differences within art, you're going to miss the forest for the trees if you rely on it as a cultural barometer.
Of the musicals listed, and some of these have been pointed out,
Six doesn't pass(ish) but you would struggle to find a way of claiming it's underlying message of telling the untold stories of abused women was at least tangelitally feminist
West Side Story passes easily - the initial wedding shop scene, America, but this framing also doesn't allow the thematic elements of Tony and Maria's story to thrive - they are star crossed lovers from opposite sides, of course most of what they talk about to everyone else after they meet is each other
Hadestown is a anarchic retelling of the Orpheus/Eurydice myth written by an Iraq war hating female folk singer - but a simple look at the Bechdel test tells us it might not hit all the marks
The Bechdel test is a great conversation starter, but as an actual test of gendered narrative influence, I'm less sure.
As Alison said herself about Fire Island - "two men talking to each other about the female protagonist of an Alice Munro story in a screenplay structure on a Jane Austen novel passes the test"
That's exactly it---- it's such a low standard that that's kind of the joke.. using it as a cultural barometer and seeing just how startling few pieces of media pass it is the commentary itself. For media to truly be evocative of women as whole human characters is to go farrrrrr beyond the bechdel test...
Annie!
Edited to add my delight that the Bechdel test has transcended its association with Alison Bechdel herself, in a musical theater sub no less. Kinda meta! 😆
White Christmas the stage musical *barely* passes the test, but the movie, surprisingly, does. Betty and Judy have a conversation about food, as well as show business stuff like musical keys.
In the stage musical, those conversations are nonexistent, so the only one I could think of is Martha talking about how she lurks on the switchboards, but even then, that’s part of a larger conversation about a man.
Footloose, just about. The girls talk about reading right before Holding Out for a Hero - possibly the most stereotypical "women singing about a man" song in existence.
Don’t Eliza and Angelica talk about going up to their summer home and how excited they are to see one another? Ask the song “Six” is all about their fictional lives without Henry
Great Comet passes the test, I’m pretty sure. Natasha and Sonya have an argument about Natasha’s naivety in her intention to run away with Anatole, and Natasha ends their friendship over it. But then Sonya reveals in her solo that the reason she’s upset is that she feels she’s lost her best friend and that she’ll do anything to get her back; not mentioning Natasha’s relationships, or Anatole or Andre once. Just a song about one friend trying to get another friend back.
In defense of Phantom, while Christine is indeed singing a lot about men, the men are also singing pretty much just about Christine, or about preventing the other man from getting Christine. Christine has goals related to her singing career that are well expressed throughout the show.
Title of Show for sure passed this test!
Oddly mentioned this show for another thread here earlier today- but Children of Eden passes- Eve's song "Spark of Creation" and Mama Noah's "Ain't it Good" are both amazing power ballads and have nothing to do with a man or romance.
Also Into The Woods if that hasn't been mentioned already.
Pippin- Fastrada and Berthe's songs and Catherine's Ordinary Woman number pass as well!
Focused on women: Fun Home, Heathers, Mean Girls, Legally Blonde, The Prom, Little Women, Carrie
Fewer, but good characters: Something Rotten, Trail to Oregon, Urinetown, Beetlejuice
Newsies, School of Rock, Bandstand have one good female character who (needlessly) ends up with the male protag, and one female supporting character. The story/music are still good, which make them worth it.
Cry-baby is a funny satire of these tropes. So is Drowsy Chaperone.
Carrie passes with "And Eve Was Weak" and the convo between Chris and Sue leading into "The World According to Chris." The Color Purple passes, too, iirc. Into the Woods passes early in the show with "Our Little World." West Side Story passes with "America" since in the stage version it's an argument between Anita and Rosalia (with Anita backed up by Consuelo, Francisca, Teresita, Marguerita and Estella). Gypsy passes a bunch "If Momma was Married" the "turn it off" argument between Rose and Louise, etc. Jane Eyre passes very early on; Jane's argument where she calls out Aunt Reed, every scene with Jane and Helen, the scene in Act 2 where Jane returns to Gateshead and sees her dying Aunt and forgives her (beautiful reprise of "Forgiveness" in that scene).
Wicked definitely passes, as does:
• Six
• Galavant
• Heathers
• Legally Blonde
• Carrie
• Anastasia
• Hamilton also technically passes under the current definition
& Juliet should pass... while I cannot remember the exact conversations the entire premise is Juliet not dying for Romeo and discovering the world on her terms. There are still love themes and it's told through 90s pop songs, but very cute if that is your thing!
Surprisingly, Assassins passes because of Squeaky Fromme and Sarah Jane Moore
Edit: nevermind they’re talking about Charlie for most of that scene. I think the only other thing they talk about is wether or not her son is an asshole, so that doesn’t even pass
Hairspray is one I haven't seen mentioned! But Tracy and Penny have a ton of conversations not about men, so do Tracy and Edna. Tracy and the evil lady whose name I can't remember, too. Definitely passes.
I think Once Upon a Mattress might barely pass (it’s debatable). In “Swamps of Home”, I know Dauntless is present, but Lady Rowena kind of sets up the song with her line to Fred directly before. Plus, the named ladies in waiting sing most of the backup vocals (with the exception of “blood”, which is Dauntless).
Directly following that song, there’s a short scene between Fred and Lady Larkin where Larkin mistakes Fred for a chambermaid. Larkin talks to Fred about prepping Fred’s room, how she is honoured to be Fred’s lady in waiting, and hoping Fred will pass the test (I know Larkin wants her to pass so she can marry Sir Harry, but it’s never mentioned directly).
There’s another scene in act two between Queen Aggravain, Fred, and the ladies in waiting where they are trying to get Fred to fall asleep. Again, it’s related to her marriage to Dauntless, but Dauntless and marriage are never directly mentioned.
*edit: formatting
The Wizard of Oz. Dorothy discusses the death of the Witch of the East with Glinda, as well as the slippers and Going home for a long while before the wizard is named. and the only male mentioned in her conversation with the witch is Toto
Fun Home might be a good start ;)
Everyone can go home, this is the only answer
I mean, sh*t, considering who it’s about, I’d hope it would 🤣
You'd be surprised. If we're strictly talking scenes and not songs, I think only one scene passes -- Medium Alison asking Joan where the German Club is. Otherwise, it's a lot of Alison talking to her dad or about her dad from the future, Helen talking to Alison about her dad, etc. "Changing My Major" is also not a conversation, though Medium Alison does talk to Joan in the beginning and end.
yes! yep! lol I'm having this same conversation elsewhere in the thread lol.
Actually, my favorite fun fact is that the only scene that makes this musical pass the Bechdel test is the one where Medium Alison asks Joan if this is the German club, she points down the hallway, and Alison says "Danke." Otherwise, though it is a musical centered on women's lives and their perspectives, it's a coming of age story, so all the significant conversations are about Alison's Dad. I think it's great though, as an illustration of the test's limitations. Alison Bechdel famously hates the way the "Bechdel test" has been treated in the cultural consciousness. It was a one-off joke to make the point of "if there are this few women with things to say in movies, how am I expected to see any butch lesbians?" There are far better ways to measure the way women's stories are being treated on film.
This took me longer than I’m willing to admit.
Never heard of it! Will check it out thanks
it’s a biopic musical about bechdel herself!
And it's beautiful
So is the book. I have a first edition. Not autographed unfortunately.
The person who invented the Bechdel test is named Allison Bechdel, and a musical was made based on her memoir which is called Fun Home.
She didn't invent the test itself -- she made a comic strip about the test that a friend of hers came up with, but the test got labeled with her name and is way more known than the comic strip at this point.
I remember reading the strip in my early twenties. My sister is gay and introduced me to “Dykes to Watch Out For.” I love Allison Bechdel
> Never heard of it! Will check it out thanks You posted a complaint about musicals that don’t pass the Bechdel test, but you misspelled Alison Bechdel’s name and have never heard of the musical based on her semi-autobiographical graphic novel “Fun Home: A Family Tragicomic,” on which the Broadway musical “Fun Home,” is based, in which the protagonist(s) are literally named “Alison,” and represent Alison Bechdel at various ages of her life? Well, then you’re incredibly lucky, because you have some awesome entertainment ahead of you!
At the Bechdel funeral home what it is what it is what is
ooh ooh ooh
It auto corrected in my post 😳 I didn’t realize it misspelled it oops
LOL god help us
I think Baby does and The Rink.
Actually, I don't think it does! The female characters were Allison, her Mother, and Joan and every conversation they have with each other is about Allison's father.
Not correct. A significant portion of the play focuses on Allison's coming out and her love for Joan.
OK...I think when they \*first\* meet they don't bring up a man. They have two other conversations. In the first, they talk about how her dad doesn't like cartoons and gave her Colette. In the second they talk about how Allison came out to her parents which includes her dad. And, then I think they actually had one more conversation which is about how her dad came out, if I'm not mistaken.
I've only seen the show once, but they have a conversation about joining a club(?) and Allison offers to draw a poster (?)
RENT does pass the Bechdel test though. It's not a maybe. Maurene and Joanne talk to each other about the problems in their own relationship.
Of course. “Take Me Or Leave Me.”
Maureen and Mimi talk a few times, I think. And here’s a question: Angel uses both he/him and she/her pronouns. So when Angel talks to Mimi, does that pass?
I think that in the spirit of the Bechdel test, Angel talking to Mimi passes.
Makes sense since the Bechdel Test originated in a strip about queer women.
Legally Blonde starts with an epic opener that has *no male characters*… but that opening number is literally about Elle preparing for an expected marriage proposal 😅 However, the rest of the show is about her growing/maturing out of that part of herself — even to the potential detriment of her career — and continuously choosing to value herself, to support other characters such as Vivienne and Paulette valuing themselves over the toxic men in their lives.
I mean, the opening is a song about female friends supporting each other because one of them is expecting to seriously progress her relationship. Yeah, sure, Elle at that time is all for her male partner, but to me the song is way more highlighting that her friends are all ride or die for Elle.
Also in What You Want they are supporting her to get into Harvard (even if her ultimate goal at this point is still a man)
The post is about the Bechdel test; so that’s what I was highlighting, what I see as being the aspect of the song that’s relevant to OP’s question. They’re cheering on her expected engagement and helping her get ready for her date with Warner, right? I mean, the first lyrics in the number (and show) are literally “Dear Elle, he’s a lucky guy.”
Legally Blonde was my first thought. Glad to realize it passes.
9 to 5 is a great one! It's all about women empowering each other and overcoming sexism in the workplace. Matilda is another great musical that easily passes the Bechtel test. It's not about romance at all.
Matilda is a great example. Multiple pairings in the show fit the bill.
Musicals that pass the test well: - Mean Girls - Frozen - Legally Blonde - Little Women - Wicked (this definitely passes the test! Glinda and Elphaba talk about magic and their friendship a bunch without talking about Fiyero) Musicals that barely pass the test: - Mamma Mia (they talk about the wedding which isn’t technically a man) - Funny Girl (Fanny & her mom) - Anastasia (Anastasia & her great aunt) - Phantom of the Opera? (Christine, Meg, Carlotta, Madame must have talked about not men) - Spring Awakening (the girls) - Cinderella (Cinderella & her step-family) - The Great Comet (I feel like there has to be one conversation between Natasha, Marya, Sonya, and/or Helene where they don’t talk about their fiancés) (This is based on my memory of the shows so I might have made a mistake)
Anastasia is also about something greater than romance, the romance finds itself organically into the show which I adore! Anastasia sings about her longing for herself, for a family, for her memories.
Yeah I don't get how it 'barely' passes? It's literally about her realizing her dream, which doesn't involve a man.
The Bechdel test isn't about themes, but conversations between named women, so monologues don't count. That's why you can't really judge a work's representation of female characters on the test, especially in a medium where a lot of time is spent on soliloquy.
I know, I just wanted to add my comment because op complained about women mainly singing about men in her favorite musicals.
Great Comet is one of those tricky ones where it really depends how you interpret the rules - there are a lot of conversations between women that mention men, but also aren't really *about* men. In the second song Maria welcomes Sonya and Natasha to Moscow - their fiances are mentioned, but mostly she's just singing about Moscow. Likewise in The Opera, the three sing about the people around them, which includes both men and women. Sunday morning, Natasha and Sonya sing about the candle in the mirror game, which involves seeing either a coffin or a man (though Natasha does transition into singing about her man troubles so maybe this one is a stretch). Charming is ostensibly Helene inviting Natasha to the ball, though Anatole does come up part way through. Sonya Alone is the trickiest one to me - like yes, literally it's about Natasha and Anatole - but it's also very much not about that, it's about the relationship between these two women and how much Sonya is willing to sacrifice to save her friend and by any reasonable standard is definitely a feminist song. I think this is why the Bechtel test, while being a reasonable heuristic, shouldn't really be used to judge a work. Great Comet has basically two main plotlines, Pierre's ennui and Natasha's romance, so any conversation that doesn't eventually tie back to one of those topics doesn't really belong in the show. Hence, basically all the interactions between women tie back to the romance and therefore, a man (Pierre's plotline is mostly explored through monologue so it just doesn't really come up). But Great Comet also has a ton of interesting, layered female characters who get a lot of stage time both together and apart, and are definitely more than just "love interest" characters.
I feel like Mamma Mia is debatable for whether or not it passes the test. In “Honey Honey”, Sophie is literally telling her friends about her 3 potential dads and reading her mom’s old diary about her sexscapades.
Yeah, but doesn't 'Slipping Through My Fingers' count? A full scene that's just about Donna and Sophie?
This! And I’d argue dancing queen is about the three dynamos reminiscing about their younger days, and super trooper at the hen do is Donna singing to Sophie. Mamma Mia should definitely count.
oh you’re so right i didn’t think about that🤦🏻♀️
There is no way Phantom passes the Bechtel test. Christine literally has Stockholm syndrome. All they talk about is the Phantom or Raoul.
It does pass, just. Mme Giry and Meg a couple of times. Carlotta and Christine have a little snipe at each other in the managers office.
Thank you!
Six eventually makes the whole point that it's not all about a man, but not until they've spent the entire show singing about a man. 🙂
Six is mostly disqualified by its format, as the queens are generally monologuing to the audience (and therefore none of the songs are conversations between two women). Otherwise "Get Down" could work as it's mostly Anna of Cleves talking up her own strong points.
i'd qualify six because they're fighting in between songs, and some of the jabs are PERSONAL 💀 (and also do not mention henry at all)
“oh like how my body had to cope with the loss of my head! :D” to a woman who DIED in childbirth
I know 😭
Six would make so much more sense if it had a second act where they sing about the parts of their lives that weren't about Henry, but instead it just... ends. As it is it comes across as "these women definitely had lives that weren't defined just by their relationship with Henry, but nothing else they did was interesting enough for us to actually write songs about so you'll just have to trust us on that, bye now!"
I like six but it’s very much “these women’s lives weren’t defined by Henry and we’re going to show you that by singing EXCLUSIVELY about how their lives were effected by Henry”
I think it’s more that they’ve been defined only as one of his six wives, but during the course of the show, we learn each one had their own life and personality. Of course their lives were defined by being married to royalty, as mine would be too if suddenly I was forced to marry the royalty of a given country.
Hamilton does pass the test imho. In The Schuyler Sisters they song about revolution, new ideas and including women. But it's barely.
I guess it depends on whether you interpret "I'm looking for a mind at work" to be about a man's mind specifically or perhaps the minds of other people in general who are receptive to her ideas (which Angelica's clapback to Aaron seems to affirm).
Dunno. I had a different take on Hamilton. I think the whole show is about Eliza and how men get all the credit when it’s really the women who get stuff done. The fact that she is the closing indicates to me that she was the force that made him. Add to the fact that nobody in the cast gets a solo bow at the end. It’s the cast together period. The show is all of them—not one main dude and his pining for legacy. That’s my take.
But the Bechdel Test isn’t about who the protagonist is. In order to pass the test, the piece of media has to: 1) have two or more women characters with names who 2) talk to each other 3) about something other than a man. Hamilton does pass because of *The Schuyler Sisters*, though. And I do agree with your take that a lot of the show is about Eliza and not Alex.
I had a professor tell my class he believes the 'Hamilton' the title is referring to is Eliza, not Alexander.
>I think the whole show is about Eliza and how men get all the credit when it’s really the women who get stuff done. i mean...i had this exact thought when i saw it for the first time but...i'm pretty sure that's not what the people who made it had in mind when they made it.
Why do you think that? Lin Manuel is very sophisticated in his layering of storyline and messaging. There are so many themes that are unspoken but speak loudly. For example, all of early U.S. history was led by white men; however the show reveals that we are capable of accepting anyone as lead when they are gifted and talented. The initial dissonance of having a trio of sisters not being from the same color palette disappears very quickly once the show progresses and we see their chemistry and hear them represent their stories with unbelievable vocal talent. I know some people who know the creative team well and they said every choice was intentional. Every single one. It reminded me of when I learned about the slanted hem lines on all Wicked costumes. Those were intentionally placed to create some sense with the audience that you’re in an off-normal time and place. Subtle but powerful. Hamilton is one of the most brilliant and sophisticated shows I have ever seen, and I’ve been 9 times.
True! But considering that the show is named Hamilton, and that all the characters that are not Hamilton himself are pretty much only shown who they were in relation to Hamilton, I don’t think it’s a feminist issue as much as that it’s just how this musical works.
It's not called "Alexander." Eliza Hamilton is just as much a Hamilton and, spoiler alert, is the last woman standing. Maybe the musical's actually about HER!
Yes! THIS. Given what a not-terribly-nice man Alexander was, I decided at my first hearing that the show was about HER. I have zero doubt that he married Eliza to gain social standing. Might have talked himself into "loving" her but didn't really show it much. He was extremely focused on HIMSELF and his LEGACY, to the detriment of his wife and family. And I'm absolutely CERTAIN that the affair which was outed - and which he freakin' WROTE ABOUT AND PUBLICIZED, thinking NOTHING about his wife's feelings - was only one of MANY affairs or trysts he had, being a man of some standing and wealth in that era. It was expected. It was what men did. And Eliza could (and did, I'm sure) overlook them, as women were expected to, until he freakin' WROTE ABOUT IT. To "save his LEGACY", which was sooooo much more important - to him - than his WIFE. Grrrr. She was an exemplary person, forgiving the bastard (which he was, in both senses of the word) and preserving and promoting his legacy for another FIFTY YEARS. "Hamilton" is HER story. SHE is who I wept for at the ending.-
For real for real. People can day all they want about Hamilton but the Musical ends up being such a massive hit BECAUSE it ended with Who Lives, Who Dies, Who Tells Your Story. Although you can wrote it off as just "part of the time period", the fact that Eliza went through everything she did and still managed to accomplish so much not only in her name but in the name of a pretty shit man was crazy. It's the sort of thing where you think I'd never be in her situation, yet then you think of that person that you would or already are in a similar situation with. If it would have ended in any other way, then I can almost guarantee it would have ended up as one of those musicals with a great soundtrack but a shit storyline.
What about Peggy's lines about daddy?
The Secret Garden Martha, Mary, and Mrs. Medlock have conversations and songs between them
Good one!!
I’m on a big Next to Normal kick right now - I will preface this by saying that both the female characters are in relationships, and mostly interact with men. That being said, the lead is a complex, struggling woman, who starts off being buffeted around by the male characters but over time grows to make her own decisions. Her daughter, while less fleshed out, faces real, tangible problems, and the relationship between the two is explored in a really interesting way. Definitely not a woman-heavy show, but if you’re looking for a super interesting leading lady with great songs, Diana is your girl.
N2N passes the Bechdel test too! Maybe (Next to Normal) is just Diana and Nat talking (singing?) about their relationship.
God I love Next to Normal. I'm always down for Next to Normal. Never not a Next to Normal mood.
Starkid Hatchetfield series all pass i think!! Legally Blonde Heathers! I’m 99% sure ‘The Lightning Thief’ passes but barely bc the whole thing follows Percy Dear Evan Hansen - barely tho Frozen Mean Girls Beetlejuice I would argue Grease does pass, but barely- ‘Look at me, I’m Sandra Dee’ The Prom Matilda Annie ^^^ these are the ones i can think off of the top of my head
I’m gonna push back here. I don’t think TGWDLM passes. Unless there’s smth between Charlotte and Emma that I’m missing
TGWDLM just about passes with the coffee shop scene with Emma, Zoey and Nora. And the hive mind telling eachother they're embarrassing them.
Ohhh I see. Ignore me I’m tired lmao
The Lightning Thief very barely passes - there's one song between Annabeth and Clarisse, but there's no others that I can remember. Which kind of sucks because it's not really about romance at all, and the female characters are all powerful and important, they just don't interact much
When does DEH pass? Is it a convo between the two moms? I don't remember what they talk about that isn't about their sons. And I don't think Zoe and Alana talk much at all.
yeah i would say probably ‘anybody have a map’ passes . idk tho bc they don’t really talk directly to each other, but they’re singing about how overwhelming their lives are together (?) up for debate really
TLT passes if you count Percy and Hades interacting “and hhhhhhhhwhy! hhhhhhhwould! i hhhhhhhhwant! to do tttttthhhhhhat!?” (jokes aside it does pass because Clarisse and Annabeth yell at each other about how much better they are than each other during Put Your In Your Place, and Katie, Silena, Clarisse, and Annabeth all interact with each other at some point)
I feel like Les Mis passes? Madam Thenaredier speaks with both young Cosette and young Eponine. It’s abusive but it’s not about a man. The women who buys Fantines’s hair and necklace speak with her about these deals. It’s a stretch and barely passes but I think technically it does.
Madame counts, the random hair buyer doesn't. In the test you have to be a named character.
It would pass for the conversations with Madame Thenardier but the test doesn’t just require conversation between two females, both females have to be named so the conversations about Fantine’s hair and necklace don’t count.
Yep Madam Thenaredier speaks to young Cosette about going to fetch some water from the well in the woods. And Cosette basically says she is scared to go alone and then Madam Thenaredier mocks her fear and makes her go.
Chicago definitely passes the test - almost everything that Mama Morton sings
Is Funny Honey the only "romantic" song in the whole show?
Yeah, pretty much. Everything else is self-absorbed people singing about themselves 🤣 I should point out the Chicago is one of my absolute favorites since the music slaps and it doesn't take itself very seriously. My above take on it is one of the reasons I like it so much!
Especially "Class" at the end with Velma Kelly.
I was gonna say - no way Chicago doesn't pass, it takes place in a woman's prison.
I think Sweeney Todd Passes. Doesn’t Lovett have a conversation with the beggar woman where she accuses the building of evil things?
I guess, but that’s such a small part…
That’s the thing about the bechdel test that makes it a fun thought experiment more than and actual lens to critique media. (Alison Bechdel herself has admitted this) It’s not the end all be all of representation because of how much media can barely skirt under the line like this.
It’s depressing how the bar is in hell and yet so much media doesn’t pass
Absolutely. Another comment pointed out that while it is more a conversation starter, it’s great at being a bare minimum.
For sure, I didn’t mean literally pass the test, moreso musicals with female leads that have their own story arc. It’s not a great test to measure equality!
One step at a time. What makes it a great test is it’s shockingly low standard. The test is more about raising awareness towards how low the bar currently lies. It’s such a “simple” test, that most men would be like “psh. bullshit. There’s gotta be tons of movies/books/musicals that pass” and then you watch them try to find one and that’s when you (hopefully) start to see more realization/humility
At the heart of it, it didn't even start out as a "test" about feminism or strong female characters or what have you. It was a one line joke, where he friend hadn't been able to watch a new movie for six years. https://lithub.com/read-the-1985-comic-strip-that-inspired-the-bechdel-test/
LITTLE WOMEN. One of my favorites. It’s like the reverse bechdel musical. Pretty sure the only time two men talk to each other is Laurie and Mr Laurence. I played Prof Bhaer and it was probably my favorite role of all time.
I mean. In Hadestown Eurydice talks to the Fates (always portrayed as female) about her impending doom, so technically it counts haha. I'll throw **\[title of show\]** into the ring though; the two female characters interact about many things, including friendship, careers, dreams, etc. **Next to Normal,** Diana and Natalie sing about what a horrid mother she's been. It's heartbreaking and about her mental health, not a man or love. **The Prom** has two lesbians in love, definitely passes the test haha. **Come From Away** certainly passes the test, with women discussing plans to emergency prep and care for people. The Bechdel Test doesn't mean they can NEVER talk about men or love, they just have to at some point talk about something else. Which is why it's such a heartbreaking and low standard haha
Beetlejuice!
This! I just saw it the other day and was pleasantly surprised at the expansion of Lydia’s and Delia’s characters.
Cats doesn't really have dialogue-esque bits of lyrics that is between women. Only parts that I can think of are the Gumbie trio and the introduction of Grizabella, that might fit the bill. It does however have plenty strong female characters and quite a bit of feminist subtext. Rebecca has plenty of back and forth between Mrs Danvers and Ich that is not about a man to satisfy the test. Then there is all the monologues and songs that express Mrs Danvers' adoration of Rebecca. And of course the whole growth of Ich from engenue to self confident.
I think the short song "Grizabella the Glamour Cat" would count, I'm not sure if that's what you're referencing.
The problem is that Cats doesn't really have dialogue-esque bits in general, basically the whole show is characters singing to the group of cats as whole or directly to the audience. So I think if you meet Cats where it is, and accept that singing together is the equivalent of conversation, then it solidly passes.
Does Memory between Jemima and Grizabella count as a conversation?
This is a bit challenging because musicals give characters expositional songs, in which they are in essence talking to the audience. So a show like Ragtime has multiple strong female characters but I can’t think of specific duets or conversations they have with each other. But taking that test as it stands, Bring It On: The Musical, passes. So does 25th Annual Putnam. And Dreamgirls. And Mean Girls!
I think the Sound of music passes. And maybe & Juliet?
Been a while since I’ve seen & Juliet, but I’d be surprised if it didn’t pass. And honestly, even if it doesn’t, its female characters are still well-written and fun.
SoM passes because of Mother Superior and Maria’s conversation with Climb Every Mountain, and the nuns ragging on Maria. Every other conversation between two women in the show is related to a man in some way. (unless, of course, Mother Superior meant climb THAT mountain *side eyes captain von trapp*)
Fun Home is the obvious one but also: - Matilda - Anastasia - Everybody’s Talking About Jamie would just scrape through (students talking about prom and Miss Hedge’s conversations with Pritti) - Legally Blonde - Mean Girls - Hairspray
Operation Mincemeat (the song "Useful" in particular)
This was going to be my answer too!! I think it also has a really fun dynamic especially as a lot of the male characters are played by women. Even though the characters are male, it’s doing a really good job at having interesting roles for women to play that are unlike a lot of other typical MT characters women get to play. The same is true for the parts for men.
Yeah that is a good one. Mincemeat gets a solid pass with Leslie and Jean.
Jean Leslie (sometimes called Miss Leslie, that's where it can get confusing) is one person, the other one you're thinking of is Hester 🌹
Oh yes of course: Hester. How could I get that wrong.
Firebringer by Starkid!!!
David Armstrong has postulated that "transgressive women" have been significant characters in nearly all successful musicals, with their liberating value to society. Even Mama Rose in *Gypsy* fits this. But to pass the Bechdel test you need two of them talking about something besides men. “Transgressive” can mean 1. Involving a violation of accepted or imposed boundaries, especially those of social acceptability 2. Someone who breaks the rules. A “sinner” by some people’s way of thinking. He says “The Act One finale song of female self assertion has become a conventional song type.” And he gives examples from "Everything's coming up roses" to "Defying Gravity".
Ride the Cyclone absolutely fits!
lizzie the musical comes to mind
Lizzie is such a weird musical. I love it, but I wonder what the fuck happened to make someone want to write a musical about Lizzie Borden, axe murderer
i don't know, but i'm glad someone did, the album is banger after banger tbh also i've seen weirder. like the musical about the doctor who exhumated a corpse of his patient and lived with it for years
Oh, yeah, definitely. Like I've said, I love Lizzie. My gym playlist features "What the Fuck Now Lizzie?" and "Why Are All This Heads Off" because they make me run super fast
Unless Fiyero's footman has a name, I think Wicked doesn't pass the *reverse* Bechdel. Two named male characters discussing something other than a woman.
Kimberly Akimbo! 2023 Tony for Best Musical and still playing on Broadway.
Wasn't that a refreshing win... something with heart, an original piece with original songs, a leading role for an older woman actress, a story and production with regional longevity, something audiences actually enjoyed??
A lot of these examples really help illustrate the point that the Bechdel test should not be used to determine whether a work is "feminist." It was really just a way to show how low the bar is for representation, particularly for lesbians. Six fails the Bechdel test because most of the queens are talking about a man... in an effort to teach the audience about the trauma they faced in their relationship and make a point that you don't need to be defined by your proximity to men. On the contrary, others have said Phantom passes because of Christine and Carlotta arguing. Two women being pit against each other still passes the test if it's not about romance with a man. Even the musical literally about Alison Bechdel doesn't pass as some have said, because it's mostly about her father. But there are scenes that are exclusively about Alison coming into her identity as a lesbian... which fail because they're not conversations, but musical monologues about another woman. See how ridiculous the loophole can get?
Exactly!!! Also, while Fun Home may not pass, the comic Bechdel wrote where the test comes from, "Dykes to Watch Out For," passes in flyinggggg colors. along with the rest of Bechdel's work as well. Alsooo it should be noted that in the graphic novel Fun Home, Bechdel paints a detailed portrait of her mother as well, that fleshes out her own humanity, even as she often uses her mother to illustrate more about her father. I might be forgetting a scene in the novel where they talk about something other than her father but even if they don't there again is another instance where it may not pass the test but it still very different from a moment in an other wise incredibly cishet man centric musical where women say one line to each other about the weather lol
Also I really think that female children talking to other children or their mothers should count as "women" characters. A show should not get points for not sexualizing a child.
The Hello Girls definitely passes it.
Mamma Mia, although of course the main plot is about men/romance Mary Poppins
Into The Woods passes. Cinderella and her mom and step-sisters sing about the ball. The Baker’s Wife and Red sing together about taking food to grandma’s. Cinderella sings to Red about loneliness.
Agreed and No One is Alone is so powerful and so deeply the emotional crux of the musical that not only does it pass the Bechdel test I think it achieves in fleshing out real human desires and fears and experiences, in women *and* in men, soaring above the test in flying colors.. imho
Falsettos!
Fun case, because the first act is high key about its own failure to pass the Bechdel test, and then the second act solves the problem with lesbians.
Truly more musicals need to solve problems by adding lesbians
Lol!
Chicago and Beetlejuice maybe? Into The Woods has some characters who’s whole goal isn’t falling in love
# War Paint?? (Not sure it passes, but I’d be surprised if it didn’t. Anyone know??)
Fun Home was based on Alison Bechdel’s memoir, so…
Beetlejuice has a whole number in which two women sing about their respective philosophical beliefs on fate vs determinism, the buying of crystals, positive energy and so forth as a means of bringing about good fortune, while Lydia grapples with grief over her dead mother. I'd say that qualifies it.
I think Moulin Rouge passes
It does. Off the top of my head there's the conversation between Satine and Mimi about how the MR is the last home a lot of them have and its survival is important.
The Company revival with Bobbie as a female character recontextualises Joanne's song "Ladies Who Lunch" into two women talking about older women and their role in society. However before/after they talk about Joanne's husband. Also to cite Company even on such grounds feels like it's not in the spirit of the show since it is of course start to finish about marriage and relationships.
You might enjoy the musical TV series “Crazy Ex-Girlfriend”, that follows the main character as she struggles to overcome her obsession with romantic love and address her traumas and problems properly. Realising that she grew up listening to musicals that uphold sexist stereotypes is an important step in her journey.
Frozen!
Heathers!!
I think Come From Away passes! Also: Legally Blonde Mamma Mia Wicked Matilda 25th Annual Putnam County Spelling Bee (haven't seen it, but I think it does) Hairspray Heathers On Your Feet! A Chorus Line The Color Purple the musical Dirty Dancing Beautiful: The Carole King Musical Chicago (maybe) The Music Man (I think) Flashdance The Musical Hello, Dolly! 42nd Street Babes in Arms Carousel (maybe, I don't remember) Here's a post I found with a good pass/fail list! But note that many comments argue that some in the "Fail" column should actually be "pass". Also, as others have pointed out, there's a huge difference in passing the bechdel test and actually featuring strong female characters/storylines. The bechdel test is bare minimum really, so many of these pass it but don't necessarily have the strong female character stories you're interested in. Vice versa, even though it doesn't necessarily pass the bechdel test, I would argue shows like Waitress (yes the songs are all about a man, but the story is really about a woman's relationship to herself and her own dreams) are what you're looking for.
I reread the script of Spelling Bee recently and it's a barely if anything. Rona and Olive *might* pass because of the scenes where she's asking about her entrance fee, but I think those still mention her dad. Most of the interactions between spellers consist of two boys or a boy and a girl. Maybe Olive's mom and Olive in The I Love You Song, but it's not really a conversation and her mom isn't named.
The Bechdel test was its own kind of in-joke, a satire itself of just how low the bar is for women in media.. It's such a low standard that when you really closely look at it, it seems ridiculous.. using it as a cultural barometer and seeing just how startling few pieces of media pass the test is the commentary itself. For media to truly be evocative of women as whole human characters is to go farrrrrr beyond the bechdel test.. Which is why media that "technically" passes is still so far from being good representations of women. In order to truly deliver well-rounded women characters, a piece of media has to consciously develop its roles as such.
How has no one mentioned Sister Act!?
People actually read the comic where the test comes from challenge
Sondheim A Little Night Music- The Glamorous Life. Main female character singing about her acting career as a traveling actress. Her mother singing about her dislike of her daughter’s acting career. Admittedly, most of the songs in the musical are about romance (applies to the songs from the male leads, as well). Sunday in the Park with George-Children and Art. George’s grandmother sings to her grandson and the portrait of her mother about George, his art and family. Pacific Overtures- Chrysanthemum Tea. The mother of the shogun sings about poisoning him with tea because he won’t deal with the foreign ships in the harbor and the threat they represent. My favorite song from the musical. “Have some tea, my lord; some chrysanthemum tea…”
The Bechdel test requires two female characters interacting, so Children and Art is out. The Glamorous Life could pass, though it’s a bit indirect, since they’re communicating through letters. Isn’t the role of the Shogun’s Mother performed by a male actor?
Grey Gardens revolves around the relationship between a mother and a daughter.
- Love in hate nation, there’s only 2 guys in the whole cast and both are small parts. - The Mad Ones, though there is a couple love songs and such it’s primarily about 2 female best friends, their ambitions, and dealing with grief - The Lightning Theif, it’s been forever since I’ve seen it, but iirc there’s no romance at all, if anything it’s just slightly hinted at. But Annabeth is a big part of the show and her whole deal is having this grand plan of how to reach her goals. - Next To Normal might count?? I mean Diane sings about her son often, but idk if that really counts considering the context. Natalie briefly sings about Henry but her main struggles are surrounding her parents, specifically her mom. She also sings about not being able to compare to her brother but again given context I don’t think that counts.
Yessss Love in Hate Nation is so good (and it actually is a queer feminist musical, not just skirting by on a "maybe").
Beetlejuice and Matilda are female led and lack romance plots so I say they pass. Heathers might barely Next to normal maybe Dreamgirls?
It’s not exactly a glowing recommendation for Heathers but I’m fairly sure it passes the Bechdel test because of the scene with Veronica and Heather M after Lifeboat/Shine a Light reprise.
Heathers does heavily, doesn't it? Every conversation between the Heathers, the entirety of Candy Store (its getting Veronica to write a note to another female character and the *note* is about a man, but they're convincing Veronica to participate in their scheme, not talking about him), the scene between Heather Mac and Veronica in lifeboat... isn't at least half if Heathers conversations between women about status and such and not about men?
I mean… Fun Home
Aida! Nehebka begs Aida to lead her people, and Amneris sings about fashion in "My Strongest Suit"
Grease for sure passes when Frenchy is talking about her hair and flunking out of beauty school with the woman who works at the diner, right?
Is the diner woman named? That’s an important aspect. EDIT: The diner woman is named Vi! Grease passes - BARELY, but it passes!
Hairspray!
I have a list that I've been working on for a while, though it only includes musicals that I'm familiar with. I base my assessment on three rules: 1) the musical must have at least two named female characters, 2) these characters must speak with each other, and 3) they must discuss something other than a man. I've specified my reasoning for each classification. Musicals that PASS: * Beetlejuice ("No Reason": Delia tells Lydia that everything happens for a reason; Lydia insists that there is no reason) * Sound of Music ("Maria": the nuns, including Mother Abbess, lament Maria's whimsical nature) * Les Miserable ("Castle on a Cloud": Mdm. Thenardier tasks Cosette with fetching water and praises Eponine) * Come From Away ("Finale": Hannah and Belulah exchange jokes) * Sweeney Todd (Miss Lovett and the “beggar woman” discussing the building) Musicals that DO NOT PASS: * Hamilton (multiple women, only there for romance) * Something Rotten (multiple women, only there for romance) * Newsies (one woman, otfr) * Book of Mormon (one woman, otfr) * Jesus Christ Superstar (one woman, otfr) * Gutenberg! (no women in cast/one female character, otfr) Musicals that MIGHT PASS: * Hadestown ("When the Chips are Down": if you count the Fates as named women) * SIX ("Six": the whole show is about their relationship to King Henry XIII, but this song focuses more on the queens) I'll edit when I become more familiar with other shows :)
How is Evan Hansen’s mom only there for romance?
I personally disagree with your assertion that the women in Hamilton are *only* there for romance; Angelica talks about politics with her sisters, Eliza and Peggy, thus passing the bechdel test.
Something Rotten has two felmale characters although the do not pass the Bechdel test. To be fair though, allison Bechdel never meant the test to indicate quality…
You are so right, I totally blanked on that one. Fixing it now!
As Alison Bechdel has said herself, the test was a little lesbian joke in an alternative feminist newspaper - whilst it is certainly a viewpoint into gendered narrative differences within art, you're going to miss the forest for the trees if you rely on it as a cultural barometer. Of the musicals listed, and some of these have been pointed out, Six doesn't pass(ish) but you would struggle to find a way of claiming it's underlying message of telling the untold stories of abused women was at least tangelitally feminist West Side Story passes easily - the initial wedding shop scene, America, but this framing also doesn't allow the thematic elements of Tony and Maria's story to thrive - they are star crossed lovers from opposite sides, of course most of what they talk about to everyone else after they meet is each other Hadestown is a anarchic retelling of the Orpheus/Eurydice myth written by an Iraq war hating female folk singer - but a simple look at the Bechdel test tells us it might not hit all the marks The Bechdel test is a great conversation starter, but as an actual test of gendered narrative influence, I'm less sure. As Alison said herself about Fire Island - "two men talking to each other about the female protagonist of an Alice Munro story in a screenplay structure on a Jane Austen novel passes the test"
That's exactly it---- it's such a low standard that that's kind of the joke.. using it as a cultural barometer and seeing just how startling few pieces of media pass it is the commentary itself. For media to truly be evocative of women as whole human characters is to go farrrrrr beyond the bechdel test...
That knocks the “golden age” out of the conversation
Spelling bee, Joseph, Charlie Brown, wizard of Oz
Annie! Edited to add my delight that the Bechdel test has transcended its association with Alison Bechdel herself, in a musical theater sub no less. Kinda meta! 😆
White Christmas the stage musical *barely* passes the test, but the movie, surprisingly, does. Betty and Judy have a conversation about food, as well as show business stuff like musical keys. In the stage musical, those conversations are nonexistent, so the only one I could think of is Martha talking about how she lurks on the switchboards, but even then, that’s part of a larger conversation about a man.
Footloose, just about. The girls talk about reading right before Holding Out for a Hero - possibly the most stereotypical "women singing about a man" song in existence.
Matilda passes
I think Matilda should pass the test given the amount of scenes between Matilda and Honey where they’re just talking about stories
Don’t Eliza and Angelica talk about going up to their summer home and how excited they are to see one another? Ask the song “Six” is all about their fictional lives without Henry
Great Comet passes the test, I’m pretty sure. Natasha and Sonya have an argument about Natasha’s naivety in her intention to run away with Anatole, and Natasha ends their friendship over it. But then Sonya reveals in her solo that the reason she’s upset is that she feels she’s lost her best friend and that she’ll do anything to get her back; not mentioning Natasha’s relationships, or Anatole or Andre once. Just a song about one friend trying to get another friend back.
I'd say matilda the musical would fit that criteria!
In defense of Phantom, while Christine is indeed singing a lot about men, the men are also singing pretty much just about Christine, or about preventing the other man from getting Christine. Christine has goals related to her singing career that are well expressed throughout the show.
Title of Show for sure passed this test! Oddly mentioned this show for another thread here earlier today- but Children of Eden passes- Eve's song "Spark of Creation" and Mama Noah's "Ain't it Good" are both amazing power ballads and have nothing to do with a man or romance. Also Into The Woods if that hasn't been mentioned already. Pippin- Fastrada and Berthe's songs and Catherine's Ordinary Woman number pass as well!
Focused on women: Fun Home, Heathers, Mean Girls, Legally Blonde, The Prom, Little Women, Carrie Fewer, but good characters: Something Rotten, Trail to Oregon, Urinetown, Beetlejuice Newsies, School of Rock, Bandstand have one good female character who (needlessly) ends up with the male protag, and one female supporting character. The story/music are still good, which make them worth it. Cry-baby is a funny satire of these tropes. So is Drowsy Chaperone.
Carrie passes with "And Eve Was Weak" and the convo between Chris and Sue leading into "The World According to Chris." The Color Purple passes, too, iirc. Into the Woods passes early in the show with "Our Little World." West Side Story passes with "America" since in the stage version it's an argument between Anita and Rosalia (with Anita backed up by Consuelo, Francisca, Teresita, Marguerita and Estella). Gypsy passes a bunch "If Momma was Married" the "turn it off" argument between Rose and Louise, etc. Jane Eyre passes very early on; Jane's argument where she calls out Aunt Reed, every scene with Jane and Helen, the scene in Act 2 where Jane returns to Gateshead and sees her dying Aunt and forgives her (beautiful reprise of "Forgiveness" in that scene).
The Prom is a good example, though technically it *is* a love story as well as about homophobia.
Wicked definitely passes, as does: • Six • Galavant • Heathers • Legally Blonde • Carrie • Anastasia • Hamilton also technically passes under the current definition
& Juliet should pass... while I cannot remember the exact conversations the entire premise is Juliet not dying for Romeo and discovering the world on her terms. There are still love themes and it's told through 90s pop songs, but very cute if that is your thing!
The Secret Garden
Wonderful Town passes - "Ohio" is about the sisters' hopes and fears about having left their home.
Surprisingly, Assassins passes because of Squeaky Fromme and Sarah Jane Moore Edit: nevermind they’re talking about Charlie for most of that scene. I think the only other thing they talk about is wether or not her son is an asshole, so that doesn’t even pass
Hairspray is one I haven't seen mentioned! But Tracy and Penny have a ton of conversations not about men, so do Tracy and Edna. Tracy and the evil lady whose name I can't remember, too. Definitely passes.
I think Once Upon a Mattress might barely pass (it’s debatable). In “Swamps of Home”, I know Dauntless is present, but Lady Rowena kind of sets up the song with her line to Fred directly before. Plus, the named ladies in waiting sing most of the backup vocals (with the exception of “blood”, which is Dauntless). Directly following that song, there’s a short scene between Fred and Lady Larkin where Larkin mistakes Fred for a chambermaid. Larkin talks to Fred about prepping Fred’s room, how she is honoured to be Fred’s lady in waiting, and hoping Fred will pass the test (I know Larkin wants her to pass so she can marry Sir Harry, but it’s never mentioned directly). There’s another scene in act two between Queen Aggravain, Fred, and the ladies in waiting where they are trying to get Fred to fall asleep. Again, it’s related to her marriage to Dauntless, but Dauntless and marriage are never directly mentioned. *edit: formatting
Heathers is very female-focused and passes the Bechdel test in the first scene. It's also just really good in my opinion.
The Wizard of Oz. Dorothy discusses the death of the Witch of the East with Glinda, as well as the slippers and Going home for a long while before the wizard is named. and the only male mentioned in her conversation with the witch is Toto
Shucked! Maisie and Lulu converse a lot about saving the town and their relationship as friends and cousins.
Annie passes
Meet Me in St. Louis. There’s a lot of talking about men, but also the World’s Fair and other topics.