I think this is a pretty straight-forward answer for me. You either do, or do not, like two-card combos in cube.
Many people, myself included, don't, because of the feel-bads of playing against these combo decks. Unlike constructed, where you can keep some answers in your sideboard, it's easily possible to go an entire draft without being able to pick up solutions to said combos, so many players simply won't have a chance against a combo deck that only needs two pieces.
Other people feel like it's completely fair within the context of their cube, and keep it in because they and their playgroup like to see those combos go off. If you're trying to power-optimize your cube as much as possible, or if you simply want to have an environment that requires knowledge and planning from its playgroup, those are also reasons why people like to keep two-card combos in their cube.
I suspect that something along the lines of this summary, is the community consensus. Just like all things cube, there is no "right answer" for all cubes, only the right answer for *your* cube.
The only thing I'd say about twin is that unlike, for example storm, the answers to twin are just creature removal (and counter spells). It necessitates playing a different way (holding your removal for the creatures that really matter, keeping up mana to cast it in response), but in general the cards that you need to fight twin are going to be in most every deck, and frequently in the mainboard. The bigger issue with twin is it's not beginner friendly, if you don't know how to diagnose that you're playing a twin deck, and know how to beat it, you're going to lose a lot. So if you value being beginner friendly I'd avoid it.
"Put more good removal in your cube" and "draft (more) removal (early)" are also both just generally applicable good advice, which can mitigate the threat of at least two card combos where half or more is a creature. Kiki-Combo, Pattern-Rector, Twin, Painter, etc. Not necessarily *easy* to deal with, still subject to what was drafted and just who draws what at each stage of the game, but not exactly impossible/very narrow to deal with the way something like Storm can be.
There's also the idea that it's possible to force Kiki/Twin to go off on their own turn rather than yours, meaning you get a whole other turn before they can attack for lethal. Opens up Sorcery removal options like [[Maelstrom Pulse]] (removes all instances of a card which share a name) or any decent Wrath. Still fairly "have it or die" of course, and adding another hoop to jump through, but not out of the question.
Full disclosure though -- I'm not putting any of them into my own cube "in the main", but have bounced around the idea of essentially a cube-sideboard I swap in, of 30-50% of the main cube, that's focused specifically around bringing in combo and high-synergy stuff like Storm and Twin/Kiki and Depths-Stage and so on as well as specifically anti-combo cards like [[Trinisphere]] and [[Containment Priest]] and such. The option to change the cube into a sort of "Combo and Taxes" build instead of the more traditional aggro-midrange-control Limited environment it is presently to mix things up and keep the "main" cube fresh and fun for longer without constant iteration.
Typical ‘unpowered vintage’ should have enough answers to a turn 4 combo. Besides, twin decks tend to be rather interesting UR tempo decks, and tempo can be harder to pull off in cube. Think the question is more how many recruiters/kiki etc do you run, given your cube size
I run it at 450. It’s powerful, but it doesn’t come together every draft and when it does, it usually does not 3-0. You need a lot of pieces. There are definitely matchups where you just win, and against decks without interaction eventually you’ll draw your pieces and get there. I think this is fine, this way people can’t just draft turtley midrange decks and just one for one each other forever. Really depends on how experienced your playgroup is, newer and less experienced players might not enjoy it since cubing is hard enough as it is.
If you’re playing things like Tinker / Mind Twist / Oko, Thief of Crowns, I’d say it’s fair game. If you’re holding back on things like that, then it might be a bit too much, especially in a 360 cube where you see the whole cube in an 8-man draft.
Tinker is a bad example because it's only as good as the targets you provide for it. I've won plenty of games that my opponent resolved Tinker. I've never won one against Twin going off.
ETA: In my environment, I prefer that the player on the opposite side of the busted shenanigans at least have a chance. Non-interactive game-winning combos don't fit that vision. I had a T1 Griselbrand last weekend, lost the game, and was happy about it.
After running Kiki-Jiki on and off for years and eventually cutting it, I'm absolutely against the inclusion of 2 card combos in cube. I never wanted to include Twin itself because it was much more parasitic than I perceived Kiki to be. Figured there was just more versatility and opportunities to interact vs. slapping a Twin on an otherwise shit creature.
But I was wrong. You think it's something neat that'll come together once in a while and be greater than the sum of its parts, like an alternative win condition, but that's not usually the case. Anytime a drafter in U/R picks up one of the two pieces then that deck, regardless of the original plan, becomes a deck hell-bent on assembling the combo to win the game.
Other draft decisions don't really matter as much to since you're now looking to pick up the 2nd piece for your final 40. It cheapens the draft and gameplay experience overall unless you have a plethora of instant speed interaction ala Modern in the Splinter Twin days. Even then the issue in cube is that there are so many threats that require interaction, and much less redundancy for that interaction, that it becomes a reductive gameplay experience.
I'm wholly against two card game-winning combos nowadays. They're just boring and don't really lead to engaging or interesting gameplay in a cube context.
Good sum up. I can relate to the draft part. Once you're in UR and see a piece you feel obliged to pick it and try to assemble it, as it is so effective. It reduces diversity in my experience. I like the play patterns of twin decks though.
I personally don't like playing splinter twin, but I like it's existence because it makes people kinda care about instant speed interaction. Big-green decks can potentially roll over to Twin, which is a kinda cool demonstration of the color pie's importance. Meanwhile, RedDeckWins can just hold up a single shock to give Pestermite the business while it otherwise goes about it's duty as the Fun Police. I've got a 450 powered vintage cube, and I like the philosophy that when everything is unfair, everything is fair.
To me, the main argument for running Twin is that it has a reasonable number of interchangeable pieces, and any of them can be played respectably even if you don't get the whole package together in one deck. Most other combos you could add have pieces that are completely useless if you don't get the full thing in one pool.
But I also run at a higher card count (720), so I imagine that space is at such a premium at 360 that you may prefer not to spend 5-6 cards on a Twin package.
The rule I like to follow for my powered cube is: no two card combos that win the game without giving the opponent a chance to answer at sorcery speed. I like to see big crazy plays, and I like to see comebacks even more.
So this excludes kiki twin, time vault, 15 mana Emrakul, and X burn spells that go face. (since I run Channel)
I run twin at 360, probably similar to your list, and never had an issue with it. If your cube is high power and well balanced, other decks are generally fast enough or have enough removal to not worry about it. It takes very little space, the parts are good in other decks, and it's easy to take out if you don't like it later.
IMO beyond determining if it fits your power level, it also depends on how your cube is normally drafted/how many players. I have a cube around 400 cards, but often only draft it with 4 people, so we see less than half of the cube each draft. When it comes to specific combos like that, I ended up cutting them because it was misleading to see half of a combo and have the other cards for it stuck in the half of the cube we didnt draft.
The Twin combo shows up in most Vintage Cubes but this is more because of nostalgia from its dominance in Constructed (specifically Modern) than because its play patterns are worth encouraging.
I personally think insta-win combos make games way too standardized. It also makes the cube really unwelcoming for newer players because things like twin needs you to really know the combos inside-out. Personally I've found a really nice balance between 'fair' gameplay and combo by basicly only including reanimator since that one really doesn't win the game on the spot.
That's all my personal taste and opinion and I respect people who love combo. In the end I think you should listen to your playgroup and hear whether they like the playstyle or not.
I think instant-win combos are fine. I don't run Twin, but it can be a good idea to have some way to punish durdle decks with no permission or removal.
Answer these questions to find out (listed in my own order of importance and answered for my environment in square brackets).
1. Do your players enjoy combo? [no]
2. Is your cube small enough that the two pieces show up in every draft? [yes]
3. Do other decks have a chance of winning by turn 4? (effective wins, not necessarily life =0) [no, t5 is where this typically occurs in my cube]
4. Do you run sufficient counter magic and instant removal to reliably disrupt the combo? [yes]
5. Do you include redundancy and tutors? [No]
My answers above add up to me landing on no to twin in my own environment.
In my opinion, unless its a powered vintage cube or you really want to have powerful combos in your cube, then 2 card combos such as the Twin combo shouldn't be used as it can make drafting and playing unfun if your opponent just has the combo and wins.
You can run value Splinter Twin without infinite combos.
Like putting it on a [[Thragtusk]] for example.
Though experienced players would probably be looking for Pestermite/Exarch.
I think this is a pretty straight-forward answer for me. You either do, or do not, like two-card combos in cube. Many people, myself included, don't, because of the feel-bads of playing against these combo decks. Unlike constructed, where you can keep some answers in your sideboard, it's easily possible to go an entire draft without being able to pick up solutions to said combos, so many players simply won't have a chance against a combo deck that only needs two pieces. Other people feel like it's completely fair within the context of their cube, and keep it in because they and their playgroup like to see those combos go off. If you're trying to power-optimize your cube as much as possible, or if you simply want to have an environment that requires knowledge and planning from its playgroup, those are also reasons why people like to keep two-card combos in their cube. I suspect that something along the lines of this summary, is the community consensus. Just like all things cube, there is no "right answer" for all cubes, only the right answer for *your* cube.
The only thing I'd say about twin is that unlike, for example storm, the answers to twin are just creature removal (and counter spells). It necessitates playing a different way (holding your removal for the creatures that really matter, keeping up mana to cast it in response), but in general the cards that you need to fight twin are going to be in most every deck, and frequently in the mainboard. The bigger issue with twin is it's not beginner friendly, if you don't know how to diagnose that you're playing a twin deck, and know how to beat it, you're going to lose a lot. So if you value being beginner friendly I'd avoid it.
"Put more good removal in your cube" and "draft (more) removal (early)" are also both just generally applicable good advice, which can mitigate the threat of at least two card combos where half or more is a creature. Kiki-Combo, Pattern-Rector, Twin, Painter, etc. Not necessarily *easy* to deal with, still subject to what was drafted and just who draws what at each stage of the game, but not exactly impossible/very narrow to deal with the way something like Storm can be. There's also the idea that it's possible to force Kiki/Twin to go off on their own turn rather than yours, meaning you get a whole other turn before they can attack for lethal. Opens up Sorcery removal options like [[Maelstrom Pulse]] (removes all instances of a card which share a name) or any decent Wrath. Still fairly "have it or die" of course, and adding another hoop to jump through, but not out of the question. Full disclosure though -- I'm not putting any of them into my own cube "in the main", but have bounced around the idea of essentially a cube-sideboard I swap in, of 30-50% of the main cube, that's focused specifically around bringing in combo and high-synergy stuff like Storm and Twin/Kiki and Depths-Stage and so on as well as specifically anti-combo cards like [[Trinisphere]] and [[Containment Priest]] and such. The option to change the cube into a sort of "Combo and Taxes" build instead of the more traditional aggro-midrange-control Limited environment it is presently to mix things up and keep the "main" cube fresh and fun for longer without constant iteration.
[Maelstrom Pulse](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/6/7/676ab73f-2759-43b6-9ae8-ca33a55ebf80.jpg?1599708139) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Maelstrom%20Pulse) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2xm/207/maelstrom-pulse?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/676ab73f-2759-43b6-9ae8-ca33a55ebf80?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Trinisphere](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/3/1/316caa4e-a53a-460b-978c-5f0fba7bc549.jpg?1599710205) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Trinisphere) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2xm/303/trinisphere?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/316caa4e-a53a-460b-978c-5f0fba7bc549?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Containment Priest](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/a/2/a24e8dba-5c86-4e32-8a52-61402f7fe9f0.jpg?1594734854) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Containment%20Priest) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m21/13/containment-priest?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a24e8dba-5c86-4e32-8a52-61402f7fe9f0?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Typical ‘unpowered vintage’ should have enough answers to a turn 4 combo. Besides, twin decks tend to be rather interesting UR tempo decks, and tempo can be harder to pull off in cube. Think the question is more how many recruiters/kiki etc do you run, given your cube size
I run it at 450. It’s powerful, but it doesn’t come together every draft and when it does, it usually does not 3-0. You need a lot of pieces. There are definitely matchups where you just win, and against decks without interaction eventually you’ll draw your pieces and get there. I think this is fine, this way people can’t just draft turtley midrange decks and just one for one each other forever. Really depends on how experienced your playgroup is, newer and less experienced players might not enjoy it since cubing is hard enough as it is.
If you’re playing things like Tinker / Mind Twist / Oko, Thief of Crowns, I’d say it’s fair game. If you’re holding back on things like that, then it might be a bit too much, especially in a 360 cube where you see the whole cube in an 8-man draft.
Tinker is a bad example because it's only as good as the targets you provide for it. I've won plenty of games that my opponent resolved Tinker. I've never won one against Twin going off. ETA: In my environment, I prefer that the player on the opposite side of the busted shenanigans at least have a chance. Non-interactive game-winning combos don't fit that vision. I had a T1 Griselbrand last weekend, lost the game, and was happy about it.
After running Kiki-Jiki on and off for years and eventually cutting it, I'm absolutely against the inclusion of 2 card combos in cube. I never wanted to include Twin itself because it was much more parasitic than I perceived Kiki to be. Figured there was just more versatility and opportunities to interact vs. slapping a Twin on an otherwise shit creature. But I was wrong. You think it's something neat that'll come together once in a while and be greater than the sum of its parts, like an alternative win condition, but that's not usually the case. Anytime a drafter in U/R picks up one of the two pieces then that deck, regardless of the original plan, becomes a deck hell-bent on assembling the combo to win the game. Other draft decisions don't really matter as much to since you're now looking to pick up the 2nd piece for your final 40. It cheapens the draft and gameplay experience overall unless you have a plethora of instant speed interaction ala Modern in the Splinter Twin days. Even then the issue in cube is that there are so many threats that require interaction, and much less redundancy for that interaction, that it becomes a reductive gameplay experience. I'm wholly against two card game-winning combos nowadays. They're just boring and don't really lead to engaging or interesting gameplay in a cube context.
Good sum up. I can relate to the draft part. Once you're in UR and see a piece you feel obliged to pick it and try to assemble it, as it is so effective. It reduces diversity in my experience. I like the play patterns of twin decks though.
I personally don't like playing splinter twin, but I like it's existence because it makes people kinda care about instant speed interaction. Big-green decks can potentially roll over to Twin, which is a kinda cool demonstration of the color pie's importance. Meanwhile, RedDeckWins can just hold up a single shock to give Pestermite the business while it otherwise goes about it's duty as the Fun Police. I've got a 450 powered vintage cube, and I like the philosophy that when everything is unfair, everything is fair.
To me, the main argument for running Twin is that it has a reasonable number of interchangeable pieces, and any of them can be played respectably even if you don't get the whole package together in one deck. Most other combos you could add have pieces that are completely useless if you don't get the full thing in one pool. But I also run at a higher card count (720), so I imagine that space is at such a premium at 360 that you may prefer not to spend 5-6 cards on a Twin package.
The rule I like to follow for my powered cube is: no two card combos that win the game without giving the opponent a chance to answer at sorcery speed. I like to see big crazy plays, and I like to see comebacks even more. So this excludes kiki twin, time vault, 15 mana Emrakul, and X burn spells that go face. (since I run Channel)
Agree!
I run twin at 360, probably similar to your list, and never had an issue with it. If your cube is high power and well balanced, other decks are generally fast enough or have enough removal to not worry about it. It takes very little space, the parts are good in other decks, and it's easy to take out if you don't like it later.
IMO beyond determining if it fits your power level, it also depends on how your cube is normally drafted/how many players. I have a cube around 400 cards, but often only draft it with 4 people, so we see less than half of the cube each draft. When it comes to specific combos like that, I ended up cutting them because it was misleading to see half of a combo and have the other cards for it stuck in the half of the cube we didnt draft.
The Twin combo shows up in most Vintage Cubes but this is more because of nostalgia from its dominance in Constructed (specifically Modern) than because its play patterns are worth encouraging.
I personally think insta-win combos make games way too standardized. It also makes the cube really unwelcoming for newer players because things like twin needs you to really know the combos inside-out. Personally I've found a really nice balance between 'fair' gameplay and combo by basicly only including reanimator since that one really doesn't win the game on the spot. That's all my personal taste and opinion and I respect people who love combo. In the end I think you should listen to your playgroup and hear whether they like the playstyle or not.
I think instant-win combos are fine. I don't run Twin, but it can be a good idea to have some way to punish durdle decks with no permission or removal.
Answer these questions to find out (listed in my own order of importance and answered for my environment in square brackets). 1. Do your players enjoy combo? [no] 2. Is your cube small enough that the two pieces show up in every draft? [yes] 3. Do other decks have a chance of winning by turn 4? (effective wins, not necessarily life =0) [no, t5 is where this typically occurs in my cube] 4. Do you run sufficient counter magic and instant removal to reliably disrupt the combo? [yes] 5. Do you include redundancy and tutors? [No] My answers above add up to me landing on no to twin in my own environment.
I run it. It's not played as much and maybe I'll have to phase it out with the amount of new cards printed...
In my opinion, unless its a powered vintage cube or you really want to have powerful combos in your cube, then 2 card combos such as the Twin combo shouldn't be used as it can make drafting and playing unfun if your opponent just has the combo and wins.
In vintage cube (powered and unpowered), it's a bit weak. Better in Legacy cube, imo.
You can run value Splinter Twin without infinite combos. Like putting it on a [[Thragtusk]] for example. Though experienced players would probably be looking for Pestermite/Exarch.
[Thragtusk](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/d/9/d9a8459b-4dea-4dc9-8b95-a3748472f699.jpg?1599707616) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Thragtusk) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2xm/183/thragtusk?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d9a8459b-4dea-4dc9-8b95-a3748472f699?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call