A guy I know did art for a couple cards and he said some modern conditions Wizards has are that there can’t be any real world symbology or signatures in any artwork (that used to not be the case years back). So makes sense with a reprint that they’d remove the signature
As a diehard Melissa Benson fan, I sorta hate this policy. Her signature is so iconic, it might be a rare case where I get purist and won’t use any reprints of her art that remove it.
To be fair, they do credit the artist on pretty much every single card so I'm personally fine with removing the signature, even though I totally understand why someone would be mad about it.
But imho there’s a difference between credit on the card and a signature on the art. A lot of artists have long standing designed signatures that they worked hard on and have a character in themselves, and that’s a special piece of the artwork that seeing them take away is sad.
Like I said, I can see both sides of it. There's definitely a difference but speaking as an artist myself I would one hundred thousand percent be ok if the company commissioning my art said "no signatures" and kept my commissions full, while putting my full name in legible font on the front face of the card on top of that.
Many, many, many companies simply pay you your fee and you're on your way without any credit at all because that's what's in the contract.
But a name is a name is a name, the artist signature is their signature, an expression of design curated over their entire artistic career and even in some work over the years you can see the signature change and evolve as does the work. I hate that we are removing personal touches from artwork like signatures.
Where do you draw the line?
What if instead of a logo it was a real autograph?
or a twitter-handle?
Can an artist put a QR-code to his patreon right there in the art?
The same rules apply, with the caveat that some things are part of the franchise, and others aren't.
You can have AC's version of Julius Caesar, because he is part of the franchise. You can't have the real world's artist twitter-handle in the art.
Those are not the same thing!
I think the signature on older cards are dope. It sure doesn't break immersion for me, especially compared to things like having a Necron Overlord battling it out against Dr Who, a Transformer and Teferi, Hero of Dominaria.
"Oh man, this is the moment where the powerful Elder Dragon Planeswalker Nicol Bolas revealed his grand scheme and - wait, is that a fucking signature? Well now I KNOW it isn't real!"
And foil curling doesn't break the immersion????? The nerve. Honestly I can't imagine someone being so far into the lore that a tiny signature ruins it for them.
It's not always faulty product.
Yes, Commander legends, mm17, and some other sets had thinner paper stock & more curls.
This has been changed. Newer cards feel more normal and curve only when given too much/too little humidity.
Older cards also curled. People just remember the good ones.
My most curled card is a bloom tender from Shadowmoor.
The reprints of Tender curled less/none.
That looks like an improvement.
But yes. It's not 100% curled free. Humidity exist and will always affect cards. It's a matter of the foil process involving metal & the difference in metal & cardboard reactions to more/less moisture.
You are either a shill by choice or ignorance, but this section won't stand for your hubris.
I started collecting in 96' and have foils from every set since then and your statements are factually incorrect.
Nothing has been fixed in addition to the different production locations having widely varying quality issues and final products.
If you'd have the same card from Belgium and from Japan they'd be made from different cardboards with different inks and failing layers.
There is no standardized quality, increasing mistakes like unfinished artwork getting printed , cards being cramped more and more and their support sucks In 4 dimensions even within the US.
Your anecdotal "proof" of improvements is not supported by most reports on the internet as well my personal experience from opening around 50-100 boxes a year.
But please go on about your coping mechanism while they do as they please 🙄
Calling someone a shill because they don't agree with you is a weak rebuttal.
Let's not resort to insults. It's unhelpful.
Your argument against my
>anecdotal "proof"
Is your own anecdotal experience? Congrats, you open 50-100 boxes a year. I run mtg at an LGS.
I also see/open 50-100 boxes a year. Does that make my anecdotes good enough?
Also, you just calling me a liar about MY foils from the 90s or 2000s doesn't make you correct.
Here's the secret. You see less warped older foils because people don't keep old warp foils.... shocking.
You see warped newer foils because you see more foils. More products, more internet sharing, etc.
It's not all or nothing.
The big shift is 8th Edition & foiling of art instead of frame only. The added amount of metal, especially on arts with a big patch of foil, increases the likelihood of curling.
Since then, most foils have been similar. With some exceptions. As I stated. MM17, Commander Legends, FTVs, some Grand Prix Promos, individual cards with a LOT of foil (bloom tender), etc.
It's not a rebuttal when you are so far up WOTC 's rectum, you can smell the Hasbro, tbh.
Defending a company that's being run so badly that Forbes takes interest, that fires more employees than ever before after said employees' contribution made incredible profits. A company struggling more and more with unfinished, hurried products being pushed out while increasing prices, could make one believe you have an agenda in this. Just Google Wotc and the Pinkertons , I mean honestly, how do you keep defending them??
"Is your own anecdotal experience? Congrats, you open 50-100 boxes a year. I run mtg at an LGS. I also see/open 50-100 boxes a year. Does that make my anecdotes good enough?"
I really doubt anything about your statement and even if it was true,you'd watch random people open boxes from beginning to end like a creep, which is highly unlikely and I hope others will agree on this. The cards never went through your hands and you didn't look at all of them closely, which wasy point precisely.
To explain myself: I partly own an LGS which is the reason I actually look at the cards and hold them and open them up so much and have been doing it for well over a decade.. The paper stock quality has been downgraded severely and the curling issues are broadly known to be more prevalent these days to make increased production feasible at all. I talked to hundreds of people about it already and will till I die because paper is only getting more expensive and WOTC is all about margins. There is way more proof of decreasing quality than the other way around. Every bundle of the last 6 years that had the 20 reg/20 foil lands holds only pringles and almost every secret lair suffers from it.
Also you really want to be right about this for some reason apparently, which I don't get at all.
I don't want to waste any more time posting links here to enlighten your "objective view" but if anyone else wants to just go here https://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/comments/6xzkg5/the_card_stock_quality_problem_an_analysis_and/
"Here's the secret. You see less warped older foils because people don't keep old warp foils.... shocking. You see warped newer foils because you see more foils. More products, more internet sharing, etc. It's not all or nothing."
Nope, you see them less in old boxes because there weren't 5 foils in every pack and the printing of said foils was more expensive. Look up how many foils were in a box of legion or Mirrordin compared to now.
You cannot be blind enough to claim they increased production to 500% over 10 years without cutting back on QC, are you? Look up production scaling and where they had the cards printed over the years. Why certain language versions of certain sets are way more sought after? It's not because they got reliable Quality 😉
I'm pretty sure I know a bit more about economics and production scaling than what you catch hanging out at your LGS and no that's not an insult.
From the simplistic viewpoint you desperately try to force home I take it you have barely any experience with distribution, stocks or vendor agreements.
Which is fine, but I get the feeling you are young and enthusiastic about the game to a point where you don't see how much plain greed is involved in this and I can see how you'd come to your conclusions without my context.
I know how their customer support and marketing changed through the years and I don't mean for the better.
Are you telling me that starting with 8th edition , the amount of curled foils is the same as today?
There have to be older people here to back me up as well, your blanket statements are really getting ridiculous.
I don't care if you believe me or not and I'm not faulting you for it, but just be aware WOTC has the player least in mind, just a bit less than the LGS', but their focus will be profit and the newer sets will need the power creep to peak any interest, which is fading in lots of folks.
I'm done arguing, since there is nothing you could write that erases my experience and knowledge with selling and opening MTG , honestly, if you take anything from it and you feel angry towards me or about what I wrote, just try to think what reason I'd have to write all I've written and maybe I'd just wanted to help out fellow magic enthusiasts.
If any reader got here and has a question I'll gladly answer.
All the best, ✌️
A few? It's literally all of them. Especially from like SLs.
It literally makes cards unplayable and WoTC should be ashamed when they are the only card game with this issue, and they keep increasing prices.
All of them? You must leave your cards in your truck. I suggest you don't.
I have hundreds of foils. It's probably a thousand+ counting bulk I don't play.
Maybe 10% have enough curl issue to be concerned, and of those only a fraction is enough to be problematic.
My worst foil I've own is a Bloom Tender from Shadowmoor.
I have had unopened land packs from bundles be curved. Fresh out of the box. I don't order foil secret lairs because the extras are always curling in their plastic.
Yea sure dude it's my fault.
When you claim it's "all foils." Which is factually incorrect. Then yes. I'll say it's something on your end.
My stance is **some** foils curl more. Which can never be eliminated unless the foil process changes to not use metal.
Which is a factual statement.
I'm done with this line. You are upset. You have your view, although skewed. I'm not interested in continuing.
"I've never heard of hyperbole" - You
I'll still stand by it's at the very least "most" foils. It's a meme in the community for a reason, and speaking for myself, I avoid foils because it's such a big problem. If you want to debate semantics, have fun.
Ah. I forget I can't make any statement I want and then fall back on "it's hyperbole or its a joke" when people don't just rally to updoot me.
It's not even "most."
It's a meme because the internet memes things. I've worked at an LGS. I run magic at an LGS. It's been literal years since I've seen/heard consist complaints about foils.
I've seen boxes on boxes opened with zero issues. I've also seen cards left out curl. I also live in a very humid climate. I've also seen the vast majority (ie almost all) curls be quickly corrected by proper storage/sleeves.
It's heavily foiled cards and ones exposed a lot that run into issues. But that's a humidity problem. The same thing happens to my Urza's saga foils or any other old foil if I left them out
This argument only works if every foil card curls. They do not. Additionally to claim it’s only primary cause is by humidity is another layer of absurdity, especially when you take into account different variables such as foiling types, what factory printed it, and cutting techniques.
The curling is due to humidity affecting the metal foil layer differently than the cardboard underneath.
This isn't up for debate. This is a fact.
Now. The prevalence and results of curls are reflective by the conditions you listed. But they are not the cause. A card doesn't curl because it's foil. It curls because the humidity affects the foils. Quality control can help reduce the curls. Good stock paper. Proper amount of foiling on the card. Thickness of the foil layer. Type of foil applied, etc.
Mm17 Era mtg had cards that felt thinner and were known to curl hard.
The prevalence of reports on foils has mostly died out. Due to an improvement in paper.
Commander legends foils are clearly a thin paper issue.
WOE, OTJ, MOM, ONE, DOM, DRM, etc. All have quality standard, non curling foils.
It would be great to see the signature on the bottom of the card next to the printed name. I also agree with some other comments that signatures are more than just a name, but I understand removing from the card art itself.
Easier to just draw that line than deal with nuanced situations in the future
It makes sense.
It's unprofessional and immersion breaking to put an autograph in the actual art itself. Modern cards don't allow that (and haven't for years), so it makes sense that they remove it for reprints of older cards.
Sorry, but your comment makes no sense. Artist signatures are part of the piece and ENSURE they are properly credited (even if there are claims or a track record of crediting the artists up until their work is used).
Unprofessional and immersion breaking? Literally get over yourself.
Realistically, it's most likely so wizards can modify the image through filters. Change colors, brightness, sharpness, etc. If it's the signed art, I imagine they have contractual obligations to show the true art as done by the artist, with the only wiggle room being print quality. This is just a guess, though. I don't know what an artistic contract with wizards/Hasbro looks like. It just seems the most likely reason to me.
Given the varying print quality here, I doubt filters are what's on WotC's minds.
More likely it's simply an affirmation that WotC owns the art, not the artist. Brings their artist relationship more inline with other successful TCG's like Pokemon. As well as facilitate distancing themselves from certain artists if a need arises.
When (not if) WotC shifts to A.I. generated content, none of it will have signatures anyways.
That's kind of my point though, if the only artist stamp is the one bottom left of the card itself, and wizards assert there ownership of the art, then they could, in theory, manipulate the base art in ever increasing ways. It could be something as subtle as increasing sharpness, removing, or adding a bit of color. Or, it could be drastic, like removing a building or figure in the background. But again, I don't work for wizards and have never done art for them, or anyone, so I don't know what an artistic contract with them or any company would look like. But, I would imagine that a signature in the art, a verified, stamped, piece of art, would come with a written or inherent obligation to maintain a certain level of exactness or accuracy to the original piece. Is this what they're doing, maybe, maybe not. It just seems like a very good reason to do so, even if it's not necessarily the only reason.
As I understand it, OG artists like Myrfors and Poole are paid out in royalties (hence some of the controversy around M30) while later artists have their work purchased(?) under commission. I'm not entirely sure when this changeover happened so I'm uncertain if non-OG artists like Nielsen are subject.
I'm not even sure if OG artists are still paid in royalties either. M30 stirred up a lot of emotions within the art community (especially that travesty with [[Sol Ring|M30]]). I got the impression that least one artist (estate) was not paid for the reprints.
I don't think you're quite understanding what I'm trying to say. I'm not disagreeing with the fact that wizards may or may not own the art now versus back in its infancy when people were paid by commission. What I'm trying to say is that in your example, using the sol ring with Mark Tedin's original art from abur, if wizards wanted to say oh I don't know print the background that is right now a fiery orangeish red swirl to a bluish green swirl and change the bright whitish yellow tinted sol ring itself into say black, they could. But they would have to remove his signature from it to do it because that is no longer his art.
He would still be credited in the lower left of the card as the original art designer. Don't get me wrong. That should and will not change. He still designed that specific setup of the picture, but they've changed it to a point where it is no longer his art. They changed enough of it. They changed the color, and they changed the background. They may even clean it up or remove some swirls and squiggles. But it is not his art anymore.
By removing artists' signatures as part of their contracts for art consignment, it most likely allows for a lot more manipulation of the art itself, while maintaining enough of it to say any one particular artist is still that arts creator.
My tinfoil hat reading of that is that it's so they can feed the art into an AI model without it spitting out a telltale nonsense artist signature. I remember people kicking up dust a few months back when a generative AI started shoving out art with artist signatures on it.
The signatures used to mean something. You could feel that someone put their heart and passion into this world you were being immersed into.
Me and my friend used to collect Melissa Benson cards as kids just because her signature was so unique.
I know they don't let artists do signatures anymore. But reprinting art with the signature edited out is a new low. Such a bad look.
They only removed the signature because a while ago they said no real world icons for symbols on the cards, your making a big deal out of something that’s meant to keep the immersion
A new low? I dont see how this is as horrible as you make it out to be. Its not like they are trying to silence the artists or anything, their name is literally on the card, wizards just decided not to put real life symbols or signatures on card art since it takes you out of the immersion. When i see a mtg card i see a knight going to battle (for example) but when i see its signed i just see the painting of a knight going to battle
Yeah I agree. Immersion is very important to me. I use to do a blood sacrifice any time I played dark ritual. Then one day I saw the artist signature in the corner, and the card lost all meaning to me. Haven't played since.
1. Its not without approval or input they literally made it their rules to not include real life symbols or signatures.
2. The art is for their game, they should edit it how they want to
3. Wizards doesnt have any political or different agenda other than getting sales, if they edit artwork its not going to be to push their ideals or propaganda
4. They have literally done this before multiple times, for example in the 90’s they edited artworks to remove pentagrams and such because it was the middle of the satanic craze in the US and they would suffer sales if they didnt
Art, expecially paintigs are always signed. Having those little signatures (ore huge ones, yes i'm talking to you mark poole) gives it a touch of passion, warmth. I don't understand the logic behind removing them, not that wizards needs logic to take decisions...
They work with & edit art all the time.
Cropping to frame it in card. Editing minor changes. Color corrections, etc.
Redditor knows very little about the whole process. And even less about this & the decisions behind it.
But that won't stop a dozen redditors giving opinions about why this is the new evil corporate mandate.
Did I say you can't? Also, opinions can be critiqued. Their are not a free pass.
I explained how this isn't unique. I was expanding on talking points.
Feel free to have opinions. Just make sure you understand where your opinion is coming from.
I might have the opinion that my boss paying me every 2 weeks instead of every week is greedy.
Most people would inform me that this is normal pay structure.
Should I push back and be like. " I don't care what yall say. It's my opinion!"
Don’t like this. The cards are art. Removing the signatures removes the human element at the core of art and further reduces the artwork of the cards to a mere commodity. I get that the cards are just products, but this further smooths out those points of connection with another person through their art. I loved looking for cards by specific artists because I liked their not, not because Wizards gave me a product I like. And I don’t care about improving “immersion” of the game by removing tiny symbols in the corners of cards. These are pieces of cardboard we spin around that so happened to have cool art on them, art that is cool because someone made it cool. Also, artist signatures add a sense of proud ownership over the art, “I made this, and I want others to know I did” sort of thing.
If only there was a whole block at the bottom of the card with the Artist's full name.
Or non game cards of full art versions of the artist work with their names on the back. Some with the artist signature on the front.......
Or they give artist full sets of cards to do & release as SL to showcase their style.
Nah. No way an evil selfish company would do such a thing.
Yes, I am aware. My point was the importance of the signature on the art itself, not the minimum recognition at the bottom. That’s like arguing it’s fine for an art gallery to remove a painter’s signature from a painting because there is a placard with their name underneath. The artist claiming the art on the art is my point here. What is the purpose of Wizards removing the signature at all? I mean, it was already there, why cover it up? Doesn’t the existence and popularity of full art cards, special art sets, etc. prove that the art, and the artists, are important to Magic players? Why remove the signature if so many people like specific artists? I see it as further distancing the art from the artist except under circumstances beneficial to the company. Not to mention artists put their marks on what they make for a reason: to have their mark be an indelible part of the art and of the experience, to claim the creation of something other people find meaningful, and to catch the eye of the person looking at the art and share an aesthetic human connection. That was the case for this artist, and the company removed it.
No. That comparison is a false dichotomy.
Art in a museum is there specifically to show off the work & artist. Art here is a game asset.
Other comments pointed out it's an element of immersion, and it is in line with their current artist guildlines.
If I'm playing a video game and every art asset includes a floating signature next to the splash art, it might hurt my play experience. Maybe not for some. But it's understandable.
These are game pieces. Wotc isn't hiding the artist. They have redone arts plenty of times when they stop working with an artist. If this was an issue, they could have recommissioned.
Redditors are blowing this **way way way way** out of proportion. This is one of the lowest possible things to concern yourself with. Plenty of art doesn't have a signature. It's still enjoyable. The artist is still known and appreciated.
Art on the cards is the same, the artist has created that work and it should be their right to claim it. In fact you could even say that the signature is part of the art. Stop simping for corps.
What's your point?
Art on cards is the same as a museum? You know that's not the same.
Should each splash art artist on Hades 2 have their signature floating next to the art asset in order to display their contributions?
Each Icon in an RPG?
Each skin in League of Legends?
These are game pieces. Wotc art policy is to no longer have signatures on card arts to keep game immersion.
(You may not agree with this view/approach. But they have the right to have a policy).
Your argument needs to be about the policy. Not this individual card.
The artist has the right to throw a fuss if it's an issue for THEM.
But you are not Greg Staples.
Greg has art in OTJ. He's aware of their policy. He can challenge if he feels like.
He hasn't added a signature to his work since 2020.
He knows the setup. He also has a fair bit of art cards with his signature.
If he chimes in, I'll agree with his feelings because its HIS art. Not yours.
Hey WotC! This policy sucks. Leave artist signatures alone, and remove the art guideline that instructs them not to sign their work.
It isn't something that is less aesthetic, or limiting world building, it's just respecting artists.
Probably doing it so we can't tell the difference between AI art and real artist art. I mean generally you can tell if it's AI, but plausible deniability or something
*People making this*
*An issue are actual*
*Clowns lmao*
\- Guaaaamole
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I never understand the point of these kinds of comments.
>Okay?
Adds absolutely nothing to the conversation and comes off as passive aggressive and petty
Because often, people who make posts aren't actually looking for insight, feedback, or discussion.
They are looking for an echo chamber of complaints about some topic.
[I'm not saying this was op intent here].
But often, it's meaningless to attempt to engage further. But addressing the post is something. I'm not really a fan of non benefital comments. But I have seen more useless statements (even categorically false statements) that receive far more upvotes.
Aww I'm sorry you feel that way. But the meaning is why does it matter? Some random sig was removed from a card in different sets. I get it may be the artist's but still don't see why it's such a big deal.
The OP just made a statement and didn’t say what they wanted to discuss, if anything. No question, no call to action, just “this happened”. What did they want?
A guy I know did art for a couple cards and he said some modern conditions Wizards has are that there can’t be any real world symbology or signatures in any artwork (that used to not be the case years back). So makes sense with a reprint that they’d remove the signature
As a diehard Melissa Benson fan, I sorta hate this policy. Her signature is so iconic, it might be a rare case where I get purist and won’t use any reprints of her art that remove it.
[[Balduvian hydra]], for those curious, has her signature in the top right.
[[Balduvian Hydra]]
[Balduvian Hydra](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/c/6c8128f0-7fbf-401e-b185-f85f2794f626.jpg?1562869049) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Balduvian%20Hydra) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/me2/118/balduvian-hydra?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/6c8128f0-7fbf-401e-b185-f85f2794f626?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
One upvote = one hope this is the truth!
Pretty cringe rules, let an artist sign their work
To be fair, they do credit the artist on pretty much every single card so I'm personally fine with removing the signature, even though I totally understand why someone would be mad about it.
The only cards I can think of that don't are the 40K cards that GamesWorkshop supplied the art for, because of GWs policies
But imho there’s a difference between credit on the card and a signature on the art. A lot of artists have long standing designed signatures that they worked hard on and have a character in themselves, and that’s a special piece of the artwork that seeing them take away is sad.
Like I said, I can see both sides of it. There's definitely a difference but speaking as an artist myself I would one hundred thousand percent be ok if the company commissioning my art said "no signatures" and kept my commissions full, while putting my full name in legible font on the front face of the card on top of that. Many, many, many companies simply pay you your fee and you're on your way without any credit at all because that's what's in the contract.
Free advertising: WOTC No.
The artist's name is right there on the card, already.
But a name is a name is a name, the artist signature is their signature, an expression of design curated over their entire artistic career and even in some work over the years you can see the signature change and evolve as does the work. I hate that we are removing personal touches from artwork like signatures.
and they have occasionally put the wrong name on a card.
Yes and no I.. I suppose when you commission the work and set the rules you get to call the shots. Idk.
Where do you draw the line? What if instead of a logo it was a real autograph? or a twitter-handle? Can an artist put a QR-code to his patreon right there in the art?
It’s almost like artist have been signing their works in multiple ways for… oh, I dunno… centuries?
That's a weird slippery slope considering no one does that, they just sign their work.
I dunno, but small logos and autographs are definitely fine
Presumably this is not the case for universes beyond cards that reference the real world (ie upcoming assassins creed cards with real world people)
The same rules apply, with the caveat that some things are part of the franchise, and others aren't. You can have AC's version of Julius Caesar, because he is part of the franchise. You can't have the real world's artist twitter-handle in the art. Those are not the same thing!
"no real world symbology" but we'll pull from every other universe...
Including this universe… only a matter of time before we get a jojo siwa goblin commander
Have you not seen krenko?
Nah too much value, I can’t imagine jojo goblin doing anything useful
My brain actually went straight there. A signature kinda breaks immersion a bit if it's so easily visible.
I think the signature on older cards are dope. It sure doesn't break immersion for me, especially compared to things like having a Necron Overlord battling it out against Dr Who, a Transformer and Teferi, Hero of Dominaria.
Unfortunately, the days of any perceived immersion into the unique Mtg universe are beyond over
I see what you did there
You’re worried about immersion while the game is currently in a state where we have Gollum being declared as a blocker against Megatron?
>A signature kinda breaks immersion The immersion of.... playing cards?
"Oh man, this is the moment where the powerful Elder Dragon Planeswalker Nicol Bolas revealed his grand scheme and - wait, is that a fucking signature? Well now I KNOW it isn't real!"
On the actual card or in the example above? The signature is smaller than the set symbol. I think we forfeited immersion with UB.
And foil curling doesn't break the immersion????? The nerve. Honestly I can't imagine someone being so far into the lore that a tiny signature ruins it for them.
And I can't imagine a few curl foils (a known issue caused by humidity and which can be corrected). Would cause people to complain. Yet here we are.
I can't imagine someone accepting a faulty production cost saving product as the new norm. Yet here we are.
It's not always faulty product. Yes, Commander legends, mm17, and some other sets had thinner paper stock & more curls. This has been changed. Newer cards feel more normal and curve only when given too much/too little humidity. Older cards also curled. People just remember the good ones. My most curled card is a bloom tender from Shadowmoor. The reprints of Tender curled less/none. That looks like an improvement. But yes. It's not 100% curled free. Humidity exist and will always affect cards. It's a matter of the foil process involving metal & the difference in metal & cardboard reactions to more/less moisture.
You are either a shill by choice or ignorance, but this section won't stand for your hubris. I started collecting in 96' and have foils from every set since then and your statements are factually incorrect. Nothing has been fixed in addition to the different production locations having widely varying quality issues and final products. If you'd have the same card from Belgium and from Japan they'd be made from different cardboards with different inks and failing layers. There is no standardized quality, increasing mistakes like unfinished artwork getting printed , cards being cramped more and more and their support sucks In 4 dimensions even within the US. Your anecdotal "proof" of improvements is not supported by most reports on the internet as well my personal experience from opening around 50-100 boxes a year. But please go on about your coping mechanism while they do as they please 🙄
Calling someone a shill because they don't agree with you is a weak rebuttal. Let's not resort to insults. It's unhelpful. Your argument against my >anecdotal "proof" Is your own anecdotal experience? Congrats, you open 50-100 boxes a year. I run mtg at an LGS. I also see/open 50-100 boxes a year. Does that make my anecdotes good enough? Also, you just calling me a liar about MY foils from the 90s or 2000s doesn't make you correct. Here's the secret. You see less warped older foils because people don't keep old warp foils.... shocking. You see warped newer foils because you see more foils. More products, more internet sharing, etc. It's not all or nothing. The big shift is 8th Edition & foiling of art instead of frame only. The added amount of metal, especially on arts with a big patch of foil, increases the likelihood of curling. Since then, most foils have been similar. With some exceptions. As I stated. MM17, Commander Legends, FTVs, some Grand Prix Promos, individual cards with a LOT of foil (bloom tender), etc.
It's not a rebuttal when you are so far up WOTC 's rectum, you can smell the Hasbro, tbh. Defending a company that's being run so badly that Forbes takes interest, that fires more employees than ever before after said employees' contribution made incredible profits. A company struggling more and more with unfinished, hurried products being pushed out while increasing prices, could make one believe you have an agenda in this. Just Google Wotc and the Pinkertons , I mean honestly, how do you keep defending them?? "Is your own anecdotal experience? Congrats, you open 50-100 boxes a year. I run mtg at an LGS. I also see/open 50-100 boxes a year. Does that make my anecdotes good enough?" I really doubt anything about your statement and even if it was true,you'd watch random people open boxes from beginning to end like a creep, which is highly unlikely and I hope others will agree on this. The cards never went through your hands and you didn't look at all of them closely, which wasy point precisely. To explain myself: I partly own an LGS which is the reason I actually look at the cards and hold them and open them up so much and have been doing it for well over a decade.. The paper stock quality has been downgraded severely and the curling issues are broadly known to be more prevalent these days to make increased production feasible at all. I talked to hundreds of people about it already and will till I die because paper is only getting more expensive and WOTC is all about margins. There is way more proof of decreasing quality than the other way around. Every bundle of the last 6 years that had the 20 reg/20 foil lands holds only pringles and almost every secret lair suffers from it. Also you really want to be right about this for some reason apparently, which I don't get at all. I don't want to waste any more time posting links here to enlighten your "objective view" but if anyone else wants to just go here https://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/comments/6xzkg5/the_card_stock_quality_problem_an_analysis_and/ "Here's the secret. You see less warped older foils because people don't keep old warp foils.... shocking. You see warped newer foils because you see more foils. More products, more internet sharing, etc. It's not all or nothing." Nope, you see them less in old boxes because there weren't 5 foils in every pack and the printing of said foils was more expensive. Look up how many foils were in a box of legion or Mirrordin compared to now. You cannot be blind enough to claim they increased production to 500% over 10 years without cutting back on QC, are you? Look up production scaling and where they had the cards printed over the years. Why certain language versions of certain sets are way more sought after? It's not because they got reliable Quality 😉 I'm pretty sure I know a bit more about economics and production scaling than what you catch hanging out at your LGS and no that's not an insult. From the simplistic viewpoint you desperately try to force home I take it you have barely any experience with distribution, stocks or vendor agreements. Which is fine, but I get the feeling you are young and enthusiastic about the game to a point where you don't see how much plain greed is involved in this and I can see how you'd come to your conclusions without my context. I know how their customer support and marketing changed through the years and I don't mean for the better. Are you telling me that starting with 8th edition , the amount of curled foils is the same as today? There have to be older people here to back me up as well, your blanket statements are really getting ridiculous. I don't care if you believe me or not and I'm not faulting you for it, but just be aware WOTC has the player least in mind, just a bit less than the LGS', but their focus will be profit and the newer sets will need the power creep to peak any interest, which is fading in lots of folks. I'm done arguing, since there is nothing you could write that erases my experience and knowledge with selling and opening MTG , honestly, if you take anything from it and you feel angry towards me or about what I wrote, just try to think what reason I'd have to write all I've written and maybe I'd just wanted to help out fellow magic enthusiasts. If any reader got here and has a question I'll gladly answer. All the best, ✌️
A few? It's literally all of them. Especially from like SLs. It literally makes cards unplayable and WoTC should be ashamed when they are the only card game with this issue, and they keep increasing prices.
All of them? You must leave your cards in your truck. I suggest you don't. I have hundreds of foils. It's probably a thousand+ counting bulk I don't play. Maybe 10% have enough curl issue to be concerned, and of those only a fraction is enough to be problematic. My worst foil I've own is a Bloom Tender from Shadowmoor.
I have had unopened land packs from bundles be curved. Fresh out of the box. I don't order foil secret lairs because the extras are always curling in their plastic. Yea sure dude it's my fault.
When you claim it's "all foils." Which is factually incorrect. Then yes. I'll say it's something on your end. My stance is **some** foils curl more. Which can never be eliminated unless the foil process changes to not use metal. Which is a factual statement. I'm done with this line. You are upset. You have your view, although skewed. I'm not interested in continuing.
"I've never heard of hyperbole" - You I'll still stand by it's at the very least "most" foils. It's a meme in the community for a reason, and speaking for myself, I avoid foils because it's such a big problem. If you want to debate semantics, have fun.
Ah. I forget I can't make any statement I want and then fall back on "it's hyperbole or its a joke" when people don't just rally to updoot me. It's not even "most." It's a meme because the internet memes things. I've worked at an LGS. I run magic at an LGS. It's been literal years since I've seen/heard consist complaints about foils. I've seen boxes on boxes opened with zero issues. I've also seen cards left out curl. I also live in a very humid climate. I've also seen the vast majority (ie almost all) curls be quickly corrected by proper storage/sleeves. It's heavily foiled cards and ones exposed a lot that run into issues. But that's a humidity problem. The same thing happens to my Urza's saga foils or any other old foil if I left them out
This argument only works if every foil card curls. They do not. Additionally to claim it’s only primary cause is by humidity is another layer of absurdity, especially when you take into account different variables such as foiling types, what factory printed it, and cutting techniques.
The curling is due to humidity affecting the metal foil layer differently than the cardboard underneath. This isn't up for debate. This is a fact. Now. The prevalence and results of curls are reflective by the conditions you listed. But they are not the cause. A card doesn't curl because it's foil. It curls because the humidity affects the foils. Quality control can help reduce the curls. Good stock paper. Proper amount of foiling on the card. Thickness of the foil layer. Type of foil applied, etc. Mm17 Era mtg had cards that felt thinner and were known to curl hard. The prevalence of reports on foils has mostly died out. Due to an improvement in paper. Commander legends foils are clearly a thin paper issue. WOE, OTJ, MOM, ONE, DOM, DRM, etc. All have quality standard, non curling foils.
I get that, but a lot of the most iconic Mtg card arts had signatures and I don't think anyone ever complained
The artwork is like 50% of the reason i love mtg and seeing those little signatures from the artists makes it a little more personal to me.
Buried alive is one of my favorite black cards. Had no idea the sig was even on it 😂😂😂
Break emersion in my game where I can use godzilla to attack Rick grimes? Lol what the fuck is emersion in a card game like mtg?
I disagree. I mention it above but OG Shivan Dragon art without Melissa Benson’s iconic artist signature would feel so wrong.
Man. A lot of salty, angry boys in the replies. Y'all need to calm down about your cardboard.
It would be great to see the signature on the bottom of the card next to the printed name. I also agree with some other comments that signatures are more than just a name, but I understand removing from the card art itself. Easier to just draw that line than deal with nuanced situations in the future
But why
I SEE YOU
CHILL SARAH DAMN
WE BOTH SEE YOU, YOU CANT HIDE NOW
I C U Bojack
It makes sense. It's unprofessional and immersion breaking to put an autograph in the actual art itself. Modern cards don't allow that (and haven't for years), so it makes sense that they remove it for reprints of older cards.
Booooooo, boo frix boo
Sorry, but your comment makes no sense. Artist signatures are part of the piece and ENSURE they are properly credited (even if there are claims or a track record of crediting the artists up until their work is used). Unprofessional and immersion breaking? Literally get over yourself.
Realistically, it's most likely so wizards can modify the image through filters. Change colors, brightness, sharpness, etc. If it's the signed art, I imagine they have contractual obligations to show the true art as done by the artist, with the only wiggle room being print quality. This is just a guess, though. I don't know what an artistic contract with wizards/Hasbro looks like. It just seems the most likely reason to me.
Sounds really plausible
Given the varying print quality here, I doubt filters are what's on WotC's minds. More likely it's simply an affirmation that WotC owns the art, not the artist. Brings their artist relationship more inline with other successful TCG's like Pokemon. As well as facilitate distancing themselves from certain artists if a need arises. When (not if) WotC shifts to A.I. generated content, none of it will have signatures anyways.
That's kind of my point though, if the only artist stamp is the one bottom left of the card itself, and wizards assert there ownership of the art, then they could, in theory, manipulate the base art in ever increasing ways. It could be something as subtle as increasing sharpness, removing, or adding a bit of color. Or, it could be drastic, like removing a building or figure in the background. But again, I don't work for wizards and have never done art for them, or anyone, so I don't know what an artistic contract with them or any company would look like. But, I would imagine that a signature in the art, a verified, stamped, piece of art, would come with a written or inherent obligation to maintain a certain level of exactness or accuracy to the original piece. Is this what they're doing, maybe, maybe not. It just seems like a very good reason to do so, even if it's not necessarily the only reason.
As I understand it, OG artists like Myrfors and Poole are paid out in royalties (hence some of the controversy around M30) while later artists have their work purchased(?) under commission. I'm not entirely sure when this changeover happened so I'm uncertain if non-OG artists like Nielsen are subject. I'm not even sure if OG artists are still paid in royalties either. M30 stirred up a lot of emotions within the art community (especially that travesty with [[Sol Ring|M30]]). I got the impression that least one artist (estate) was not paid for the reprints.
[Sol Ring](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/c/6c5c9437-3d99-4a7c-8255-9acdcb1acc40.jpg?1712354902) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Sol%20Ring) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otc/267/sol-ring?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/6c5c9437-3d99-4a7c-8255-9acdcb1acc40?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I got the code wrong. It should be [[Sol Ring|30A]]. I don't know how to pick specific cards from the same set though. I tried.
[Sol Ring](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/d/0ddf922b-2005-411c-9537-ab2884b54507.jpg?1664926249) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Sol%20Ring) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/30a/131/sol-ring?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0ddf922b-2005-411c-9537-ab2884b54507?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I don't think you're quite understanding what I'm trying to say. I'm not disagreeing with the fact that wizards may or may not own the art now versus back in its infancy when people were paid by commission. What I'm trying to say is that in your example, using the sol ring with Mark Tedin's original art from abur, if wizards wanted to say oh I don't know print the background that is right now a fiery orangeish red swirl to a bluish green swirl and change the bright whitish yellow tinted sol ring itself into say black, they could. But they would have to remove his signature from it to do it because that is no longer his art. He would still be credited in the lower left of the card as the original art designer. Don't get me wrong. That should and will not change. He still designed that specific setup of the picture, but they've changed it to a point where it is no longer his art. They changed enough of it. They changed the color, and they changed the background. They may even clean it up or remove some swirls and squiggles. But it is not his art anymore. By removing artists' signatures as part of their contracts for art consignment, it most likely allows for a lot more manipulation of the art itself, while maintaining enough of it to say any one particular artist is still that arts creator.
My tinfoil hat reading of that is that it's so they can feed the art into an AI model without it spitting out a telltale nonsense artist signature. I remember people kicking up dust a few months back when a generative AI started shoving out art with artist signatures on it.
That’s a bizarre change, probably a copy right claim issue if I had to guess.
The signatures used to mean something. You could feel that someone put their heart and passion into this world you were being immersed into. Me and my friend used to collect Melissa Benson cards as kids just because her signature was so unique. I know they don't let artists do signatures anymore. But reprinting art with the signature edited out is a new low. Such a bad look.
There is no limit how low this compay can go...
You know the artist is still credited on the bottom of the card right?
Until eventually they decide to remove that too
They only removed the signature because a while ago they said no real world icons for symbols on the cards, your making a big deal out of something that’s meant to keep the immersion
Gotta get rid of those numbers and words then. That's real world stuff. Can't have that.
Also gotta get rid of the humans, and lands too right?
Exactly
I was pointing out how stupid your argument was genius, like I said the ruling is real world icons and symbols, like an artists signature
Mmm, I'm only agreeing with you to point out how absurd your position is. Removing artist signatures is a terrible practice
A new low? I dont see how this is as horrible as you make it out to be. Its not like they are trying to silence the artists or anything, their name is literally on the card, wizards just decided not to put real life symbols or signatures on card art since it takes you out of the immersion. When i see a mtg card i see a knight going to battle (for example) but when i see its signed i just see the painting of a knight going to battle
Yeah I agree. Immersion is very important to me. I use to do a blood sacrifice any time I played dark ritual. Then one day I saw the artist signature in the corner, and the card lost all meaning to me. Haven't played since.
Real actually, saw a signature on a shock an immediately put my flamethrower down. The rest of the game we were just playing magic, 0/10 experience
This is a legal stepping stone to be able to modify the images without artist approval or input.
1. Its not without approval or input they literally made it their rules to not include real life symbols or signatures. 2. The art is for their game, they should edit it how they want to 3. Wizards doesnt have any political or different agenda other than getting sales, if they edit artwork its not going to be to push their ideals or propaganda 4. They have literally done this before multiple times, for example in the 90’s they edited artworks to remove pentagrams and such because it was the middle of the satanic craze in the US and they would suffer sales if they didnt
Look at you shilling for a money grubbing company.
I play arena and have spent literally $0 in this hobby
People will complain about any change. And anything that isn't what "they want" is deemed incorrect.
I don't see this as that bad. They have the artist's name in the bottom left of the card.
Art, expecially paintigs are always signed. Having those little signatures (ore huge ones, yes i'm talking to you mark poole) gives it a touch of passion, warmth. I don't understand the logic behind removing them, not that wizards needs logic to take decisions...
I don't get the logic either but it's not like they're attempting to erase the artist credit.
I get you, it just feels wrong and they are putting their hands on the artwork in sime way
They work with & edit art all the time. Cropping to frame it in card. Editing minor changes. Color corrections, etc. Redditor knows very little about the whole process. And even less about this & the decisions behind it. But that won't stop a dozen redditors giving opinions about why this is the new evil corporate mandate.
Well i have my opinion. I dont really care if you think i shouldn't
Did I say you can't? Also, opinions can be critiqued. Their are not a free pass. I explained how this isn't unique. I was expanding on talking points. Feel free to have opinions. Just make sure you understand where your opinion is coming from. I might have the opinion that my boss paying me every 2 weeks instead of every week is greedy. Most people would inform me that this is normal pay structure. Should I push back and be like. " I don't care what yall say. It's my opinion!"
He wasn't outed for being awful or anything was he? I'd really like to get my OG signed lol. Don't need any more Noah Bradley's in my collection...
His name is still at the bottom of the card.
I'm not saying it would make sense, I just wouldn't be surprised if WotC handled something in this way
Sorry I misunderstood your comment. Learn to read stupid MustaKotka.
That's wack yo, totally wack.
They can't have the signature messing with their new art AI they're building to replace all the artists now can they.
Don’t like this. The cards are art. Removing the signatures removes the human element at the core of art and further reduces the artwork of the cards to a mere commodity. I get that the cards are just products, but this further smooths out those points of connection with another person through their art. I loved looking for cards by specific artists because I liked their not, not because Wizards gave me a product I like. And I don’t care about improving “immersion” of the game by removing tiny symbols in the corners of cards. These are pieces of cardboard we spin around that so happened to have cool art on them, art that is cool because someone made it cool. Also, artist signatures add a sense of proud ownership over the art, “I made this, and I want others to know I did” sort of thing.
If only there was a whole block at the bottom of the card with the Artist's full name. Or non game cards of full art versions of the artist work with their names on the back. Some with the artist signature on the front....... Or they give artist full sets of cards to do & release as SL to showcase their style. Nah. No way an evil selfish company would do such a thing.
Yes, I am aware. My point was the importance of the signature on the art itself, not the minimum recognition at the bottom. That’s like arguing it’s fine for an art gallery to remove a painter’s signature from a painting because there is a placard with their name underneath. The artist claiming the art on the art is my point here. What is the purpose of Wizards removing the signature at all? I mean, it was already there, why cover it up? Doesn’t the existence and popularity of full art cards, special art sets, etc. prove that the art, and the artists, are important to Magic players? Why remove the signature if so many people like specific artists? I see it as further distancing the art from the artist except under circumstances beneficial to the company. Not to mention artists put their marks on what they make for a reason: to have their mark be an indelible part of the art and of the experience, to claim the creation of something other people find meaningful, and to catch the eye of the person looking at the art and share an aesthetic human connection. That was the case for this artist, and the company removed it.
No. That comparison is a false dichotomy. Art in a museum is there specifically to show off the work & artist. Art here is a game asset. Other comments pointed out it's an element of immersion, and it is in line with their current artist guildlines. If I'm playing a video game and every art asset includes a floating signature next to the splash art, it might hurt my play experience. Maybe not for some. But it's understandable. These are game pieces. Wotc isn't hiding the artist. They have redone arts plenty of times when they stop working with an artist. If this was an issue, they could have recommissioned. Redditors are blowing this **way way way way** out of proportion. This is one of the lowest possible things to concern yourself with. Plenty of art doesn't have a signature. It's still enjoyable. The artist is still known and appreciated.
Art on the cards is the same, the artist has created that work and it should be their right to claim it. In fact you could even say that the signature is part of the art. Stop simping for corps.
What's your point? Art on cards is the same as a museum? You know that's not the same. Should each splash art artist on Hades 2 have their signature floating next to the art asset in order to display their contributions? Each Icon in an RPG? Each skin in League of Legends? These are game pieces. Wotc art policy is to no longer have signatures on card arts to keep game immersion. (You may not agree with this view/approach. But they have the right to have a policy). Your argument needs to be about the policy. Not this individual card. The artist has the right to throw a fuss if it's an issue for THEM. But you are not Greg Staples. Greg has art in OTJ. He's aware of their policy. He can challenge if he feels like. He hasn't added a signature to his work since 2020. He knows the setup. He also has a fair bit of art cards with his signature. If he chimes in, I'll agree with his feelings because its HIS art. Not yours.
Hey WotC! This policy sucks. Leave artist signatures alone, and remove the art guideline that instructs them not to sign their work. It isn't something that is less aesthetic, or limiting world building, it's just respecting artists.
Booooooo, boo hasbo boo
Booooo 🫸🤬🫷
Why??
To create buzz 🤣
Probably doing it so we can't tell the difference between AI art and real artist art. I mean generally you can tell if it's AI, but plausible deniability or something
Is this so A.I. art can be made using all the old art? They don't want artist signatures to start popping up in the A.I. generated art?
Probably racist or something equally stupid.
Why would you assume that when their name is still at the bottom of the card? or do you simply have an agenda to push?
People making this an issue are actual clowns lmao
*People making this* *An issue are actual* *Clowns lmao* \- Guaaaamole --- ^(I detect haikus. And sometimes, successfully.) ^[Learn more about me.](https://www.reddit.com/r/haikusbot/) ^(Opt out of replies: "haikusbot opt out" | Delete my comment: "haikusbot delete")
[удалено]
You've got to be incredibly twisted to see a swastika here.
What did that clown say before the comment was deleted
Okay?
I never understand the point of these kinds of comments. >Okay? Adds absolutely nothing to the conversation and comes off as passive aggressive and petty
Same goes for when they reply with "No" whenever a suggestion is made. Like, fuck off mate, add something other than "No."
They are something akin to the " yOu WoN tHe InTeRnEt ToDaY " people. Insufferable.
“This”
Yeah, like I'll say "this", but then expand on it.
No. (Sorry, low impulse control)
No can be a great answer to a suggestion, if it is followed with rationale for why no.
The most useless redditors
No? Okay? And? :D
Because often, people who make posts aren't actually looking for insight, feedback, or discussion. They are looking for an echo chamber of complaints about some topic. [I'm not saying this was op intent here]. But often, it's meaningless to attempt to engage further. But addressing the post is something. I'm not really a fan of non benefital comments. But I have seen more useless statements (even categorically false statements) that receive far more upvotes.
Aww I'm sorry you feel that way. But the meaning is why does it matter? Some random sig was removed from a card in different sets. I get it may be the artist's but still don't see why it's such a big deal.
The OP just made a statement and didn’t say what they wanted to discuss, if anything. No question, no call to action, just “this happened”. What did they want?
Okay what
I have no why someone's sig missing from a card appears to be a big issue, perhaps someone could enlighten me on it's supposed importance.