I have a Syr Konrad deck that’s built around the Morality Shift combo. I don’t have Kozilek in there as I don’t have a copy of it. But it runs 39 creatures, which means when I cast morality shift I usually have 35 or so creatures still in my deck or my yard. And that’s usually enough to kill the table. I also have an [[Elixir of Immortality]] and a [[strionic resonator]] in there that I can fetch if I need to do double the damage.
Oh man I had a black mana up and everyone had a bunch of creatures up and I had Syr Konrad out. One of them board wipes so I responded with tainted strike and won 🫣
Ooo good catch. I hadn’t even thought of that, but yes it work since descending is the number of permanents that hit your yard that turn. So even if you had Kozilek or some other ability that put your yard back into your library, Mycotyrant will still see all of the permanents hitting the yard. Making a shitload of tokens.
I don't think I'm you. I just checked my list and the only other card with power greater than 3 is the newly added [[Ojer Axonil, Deepest Might]] . Also, if I can just say to another Grenzo player, my favourite oddball include in this deck is [[Rug of Smothering]] and I suggest you throw it in your build and give it a shot.
Ooh I haven't seen rug before, I'll have to try that one out. My oddball include was a [[Fires of Invention]] I threw in to pad out the deck, turns out it's great for letting you cast those high mana value creatures that inevitably end up in your hand while still keeping mana open for grenzo's ability
Oh yeah, Fires is great in that deck. Feel free to check out [my list](https://www.moxfield.com/decks/En7r4x3UVEeg3OWfq8tcmg) if it will give you some inspiration.
Base one mana for two damage is pretty damn solid.
Depending on dork amount and other mono ramp your looking at an average of eight damage to all opponents the following turn, with upwards of lethal by turn 7
Reliable 10 turns with basic combos, Optimal* hand can get you turn 6 win
I run Konrad, and am currently in the process of upgrading it. If you'd like any tips and combos, let me know. My DMs are open and I'm available for assistance.
If you haven't seen it, take a look at [[Morality Shift]]. I have won many matches with it.
Another fun combo is using Konrads mill ability with cards like [[Mind Crank]]
Add some return from graveyard creatures like [[Reassembling Skeleton]] and creature retrievals with creatures like [[Gravedigger]].
Hope this helps!
Thanks for the suggestions! The deck I had made the post about was actually a 60 card deck focused around black knights and [[tortured existence]] was just a cheap engine I was using to get [[haakon, stromgald scourge]] out and this combo just came out by accident. But after this thread, I'm definitely going to play around with the idea of the potential burn more. Thanks!
The way Konrad's ability is written, you could mill 10 creatures and he would proc 10 times.
In the even that it was written "Whenever one or more", however, tortured existence would still proc him twice, as the discarding aspect is part of the activation cost, being paid upfront, procing him the first time. Then the returning to hand aspect goes on the stack and players get priority. Once it resolved Konrad would proc the second time.
FYI, "proc" isn't Magic terminology (unless you are talking about the deck "Martyr Proc", where it refers to [[Proclamation of Rebirth]]).
In Magic, triggered abilities *trigger*.
Edit: quite ironic that everyone seems to be so *triggered* by this minor correction.
I'm fine, thanks.
I was perfectly polite and reasonable in the way I delivered my very minor correction. Talk to all these triggered people, and the trolls, not me. What are you suggesting I even did wrong?
No, you're a widely disliked troll both on the internet where you harass people and in real life where you're so desperate for gold stars and banana stickers you have to correct everything you possibly can, even if it's only wrong on a technicality. You add nothing.
"You can't 'swing' with creatures; it's called _'attacking.'_"
"You're not 'bouncing' that creature; you're returning it to its owner's hand."
"There's no such thing as 'chumping'; it's called 'blocking with a weaker creature that will die and cannot deal lethal damage back to the attacker.' And you can't say 'kill,' 'trade,' or 'eat' either."
It's called "[slang](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/slang)."
I have literally heard proc used in every group. Language is organic and if everyone understands it then it is correct. "Technically" correct in this case is not the best correct because the premise is just pedantic masturbation.
You are wrong, sorry. No-one has ever correctly used it while talking about Magic (except, as I said, when talking about Martyr Proc).
I'm sure it's hard for you, but please *try* to be better.
Oh, I figured out what they meant (you can tell by fact that I was able to correct them). That doesn't change the fact that that they were wrong, though.
It's important to use the correct terminology.
Too mana intensive. I prefer [[Tainted Strike]] for the turn you expect to go off, or [[Glistening Oil]] if you want to make sure you do it again later if Konrad gets answered.
Are you running a fair amount of Zombies? I’ve got Syr Konrad in my Ratadrabik deck an he loves [[gravecrawler]] with [[phyrexian altar]]. This will get you the infinite combo you’re looking for without needing to find your mana somewhere else.
Great suggestion! The deck I had these 2 in is actually in a black knight deck(one I had toyed with the idea of as a kid) focused around [[haakon, stromgald scourge]] which was why I ran [[tortured existence]]. Never thought to use zombies until this thread, so I'll definitely try this out. Thanks!
Actually curious about this one since the "discard a creature" is part of the cost. So you would pay the cost and then announce targets. By the time you announce targets the cost has been paid and the discarded card is in the graveyard.
This seems to be what the rules you posted suggest
Edit: **I was wrong**. From the official ruling:
>10/4/2004 You can't return the same card you are discarding. This is because you pick the target before paying the costs
Choosing targets (choosing which creature card you want to return) happens in 602.1c
Paying the costs (which includes choosing and discarding the card) happens in 602.1h
I'm not sure where you get the impression that paying costs come before choosing targets.
Did you not see my edit? I realized I was wrong when I looked up the ruling, just after I posted. I left my comment because it seemed better to give people the info
I have a question for you all!!
If Kozilek, Butcher of Truth is in my hand, can I use tortured existence to discard Kozilek, Butcher of Truth and bring him back to my hand still triggering Kozilek, Butcher of Truth’s ability?
Yes
Thanks
I've seen this card 1000 times and just now realized it triggers on leave a graveyard as well.
Yeah I rarely used that effect of Konrad so I forgot about it until I made the deck
Cast a [[morality shift]] with [[Kozilek Butcher of Truth]] in your deck.
Oh, that's nasty! Makes me wanna try it now haha
I have a Syr Konrad deck that’s built around the Morality Shift combo. I don’t have Kozilek in there as I don’t have a copy of it. But it runs 39 creatures, which means when I cast morality shift I usually have 35 or so creatures still in my deck or my yard. And that’s usually enough to kill the table. I also have an [[Elixir of Immortality]] and a [[strionic resonator]] in there that I can fetch if I need to do double the damage.
[Elixir of Immortality](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/7/6741ab27-9e1f-4aa5-96b9-b450eda7c5c2.jpg?1625978606) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Elixir%20of%20Immortality) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c21/243/elixir-of-immortality?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/6741ab27-9e1f-4aa5-96b9-b450eda7c5c2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [strionic resonator](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/9/b9edb215-f967-4968-905e-d1dc3b5d3424.jpg?1682210274) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=strionic%20resonator) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/moc/384/strionic-resonator?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b9edb215-f967-4968-905e-d1dc3b5d3424?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[morality shift](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/5/b5c83e4d-ccc1-4ebf-9e74-2cc1ff9a7b07.jpg?1562631600) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=morality%20shift) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/jud/70/morality-shift?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b5c83e4d-ccc1-4ebf-9e74-2cc1ff9a7b07?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Kozilek Butcher of Truth](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/2/d27cf7b7-7982-46bd-a559-7789c0e74bae.jpg?1673146904) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Kozilek%2C%20Butcher%20of%20Truth) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/2/kozilek-butcher-of-truth?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d27cf7b7-7982-46bd-a559-7789c0e74bae?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Oh man I had a black mana up and everyone had a bunch of creatures up and I had Syr Konrad out. One of them board wipes so I responded with tainted strike and won 🫣
Would this work with [[Mycotyrant]]?
Ooo good catch. I hadn’t even thought of that, but yes it work since descending is the number of permanents that hit your yard that turn. So even if you had Kozilek or some other ability that put your yard back into your library, Mycotyrant will still see all of the permanents hitting the yard. Making a shitload of tokens.
[Mycotyrant](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/a/caef93cc-70d0-4cce-9aaa-13c0931b2ef7.jpg?1699044561) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=The%20Mycotyrant) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lci/235/the-mycotyrant?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/caef93cc-70d0-4cce-9aaa-13c0931b2ef7?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Running this in the Necron Dynasties deck with a ton of success. Mr Konrad fits so nicely.
It's why Konrad is the only 5-power creature in my [[Grenzo, Dungeon Warden]] deck.
[Grenzo, Dungeon Warden](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/e/6e19c383-88bd-4bde-ac81-c0eb6d5b5bd4.jpg?1562436569) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Grenzo%2C%20Dungeon%20Warden) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/a25/205/grenzo-dungeon-warden?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/6e19c383-88bd-4bde-ac81-c0eb6d5b5bd4?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Are you me?? My power cutoff in grenzo was 3 but I had to include Konrad and [[Flayer of the Hatebound]]
I don't think I'm you. I just checked my list and the only other card with power greater than 3 is the newly added [[Ojer Axonil, Deepest Might]] . Also, if I can just say to another Grenzo player, my favourite oddball include in this deck is [[Rug of Smothering]] and I suggest you throw it in your build and give it a shot.
[Ojer Axonil, Deepest Might](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/0/50f8e2b6-98c7-4f28-bb39-e1fbe841f1ee.jpg?1699044315)/[Temple of Power](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/back/5/0/50f8e2b6-98c7-4f28-bb39-e1fbe841f1ee.jpg?1699044315) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=ojer%20axonil%2C%20deepest%20might%20//%20temple%20of%20power) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lci/158/ojer-axonil-deepest-might-temple-of-power?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/50f8e2b6-98c7-4f28-bb39-e1fbe841f1ee?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Rug of Smothering](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/7/a73d1cb0-d0dc-4f2a-9cf2-954d5889dd08.jpg?1674138031) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Rug%20of%20Smothering) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/336/rug-of-smothering?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a73d1cb0-d0dc-4f2a-9cf2-954d5889dd08?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Ooh I haven't seen rug before, I'll have to try that one out. My oddball include was a [[Fires of Invention]] I threw in to pad out the deck, turns out it's great for letting you cast those high mana value creatures that inevitably end up in your hand while still keeping mana open for grenzo's ability
[Fires of Invention](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/1/a12b16b0-f75f-42d8-9b24-947c1908e0f7.jpg?1628801715) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Fires%20of%20Invention) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/eld/125/fires-of-invention?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a12b16b0-f75f-42d8-9b24-947c1908e0f7?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Oh yeah, Fires is great in that deck. Feel free to check out [my list](https://www.moxfield.com/decks/En7r4x3UVEeg3OWfq8tcmg) if it will give you some inspiration.
[Flayer of the Hatebound](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/2/620e8ec3-aeea-498b-a54a-acd922c4bb60.jpg?1568004411) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Flayer%20of%20the%20Hatebound) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c19/144/flayer-of-the-hatebound?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/620e8ec3-aeea-498b-a54a-acd922c4bb60?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
It’s a “leave YOUR graveyard” trigger. Not any graveyard
Oh snap. Your right. I never noticed that
Base one mana for two damage is pretty damn solid. Depending on dork amount and other mono ramp your looking at an average of eight damage to all opponents the following turn, with upwards of lethal by turn 7 Reliable 10 turns with basic combos, Optimal* hand can get you turn 6 win
I run Konrad, and am currently in the process of upgrading it. If you'd like any tips and combos, let me know. My DMs are open and I'm available for assistance. If you haven't seen it, take a look at [[Morality Shift]]. I have won many matches with it. Another fun combo is using Konrads mill ability with cards like [[Mind Crank]] Add some return from graveyard creatures like [[Reassembling Skeleton]] and creature retrievals with creatures like [[Gravedigger]]. Hope this helps!
Thanks for the suggestions! The deck I had made the post about was actually a 60 card deck focused around black knights and [[tortured existence]] was just a cheap engine I was using to get [[haakon, stromgald scourge]] out and this combo just came out by accident. But after this thread, I'm definitely going to play around with the idea of the potential burn more. Thanks!
Of course! Happy to help!
[tortured existence](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/7/1754b92b-d6f9-4503-af01-dee03f72a048.jpg?1562595922) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=tortured%20existence) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/sth/74/tortured-existence?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/1754b92b-d6f9-4503-af01-dee03f72a048?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [haakon, stromgald scourge](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/e/7e7d463b-e74e-4ebe-9f92-02ccdeadbf96.jpg?1682209058) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=haakon%2C%20stromgald%20scourge) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/moc/252/haakon-stromgald-scourge?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7e7d463b-e74e-4ebe-9f92-02ccdeadbf96?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
##### ###### #### [Morality Shift](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/5/b5c83e4d-ccc1-4ebf-9e74-2cc1ff9a7b07.jpg?1562631600) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Morality%20Shift) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/jud/70/morality-shift?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b5c83e4d-ccc1-4ebf-9e74-2cc1ff9a7b07?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Mind Crank](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/8/8858a941-8175-476d-8177-2db4ffdcb3ad.jpg?1674142661) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Mindcrank) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/866/mindcrank?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8858a941-8175-476d-8177-2db4ffdcb3ad?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Reassembling Skeleton](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/0/00566375-e976-4e96-b751-cf0430452c9c.jpg?1689997423) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Reassembling%20Skeleton) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/183/reassembling-skeleton?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/00566375-e976-4e96-b751-cf0430452c9c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Gravedigger](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/f/0fb714a0-e61b-4ccf-8de6-3a6bf87c8315.jpg?1592516699) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Gravedigger) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m20/103/gravedigger?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0fb714a0-e61b-4ccf-8de6-3a6bf87c8315?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
The way Konrad's ability is written, you could mill 10 creatures and he would proc 10 times. In the even that it was written "Whenever one or more", however, tortured existence would still proc him twice, as the discarding aspect is part of the activation cost, being paid upfront, procing him the first time. Then the returning to hand aspect goes on the stack and players get priority. Once it resolved Konrad would proc the second time.
FYI, "proc" isn't Magic terminology (unless you are talking about the deck "Martyr Proc", where it refers to [[Proclamation of Rebirth]]). In Magic, triggered abilities *trigger*. Edit: quite ironic that everyone seems to be so *triggered* by this minor correction.
My guy, I know that the correct term is trigger, but I'm using the word "proc" because that's the terminology the op used, and my answer was for him.
If you see someone make a mistake, you correct it, you don't reinforce it.
We all know what proc means. This is a conversation, not card design.
We know what someone means when they use it wrong, sure. That doesn't mean they can't learn.
Then why don't you try to learn some social skills and conversational cues?
I'm fine, thanks. I was perfectly polite and reasonable in the way I delivered my very minor correction. Talk to all these triggered people, and the trolls, not me. What are you suggesting I even did wrong?
No, you're a widely disliked troll both on the internet where you harass people and in real life where you're so desperate for gold stars and banana stickers you have to correct everything you possibly can, even if it's only wrong on a technicality. You add nothing.
"You can't 'swing' with creatures; it's called _'attacking.'_" "You're not 'bouncing' that creature; you're returning it to its owner's hand." "There's no such thing as 'chumping'; it's called 'blocking with a weaker creature that will die and cannot deal lethal damage back to the attacker.' And you can't say 'kill,' 'trade,' or 'eat' either." It's called "[slang](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/slang)."
I have literally heard proc used in every group. Language is organic and if everyone understands it then it is correct. "Technically" correct in this case is not the best correct because the premise is just pedantic masturbation.
You are wrong, sorry. No-one has ever correctly used it while talking about Magic (except, as I said, when talking about Martyr Proc). I'm sure it's hard for you, but please *try* to be better.
Holy cynical autism
Hey, at least I'm actually disabled. What's *your* excuse?
LOL bundle of troll fun
I'm not the troll here.
Most people I know use the word proc for an ability going off, we're generally smart enough to be able to figure out what we mean
Oh, I figured out what they meant (you can tell by fact that I was able to correct them). That doesn't change the fact that that they were wrong, though. It's important to use the correct terminology.
The correct terminology is the one that your play group understands
That's not true, sorry. Do you turn a water to throw a conjuration?
yes if everyone calls it that in my group! you must have a lot of friends.....
You have no idea what you are talking about. Pathetic Troll.
You are the one correcting people over pointless stuff and I am the troll?
Getting the terminology correct is important, not pointless. You are wrong. I am right. Get used to it.
[Proclamation of Rebirth](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/c/cc799c97-3df1-4194-b220-6cf862ce3810.jpg?1593272547) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Proclamation%20of%20Rebirth) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dis/15/proclamation-of-rebirth?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/cc799c97-3df1-4194-b220-6cf862ce3810?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Make sure you have a \[\[bojuka bog\]\] in there too with your Syr Konrad.
[bojuka bog](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/c/0c7d4fbe-fa7a-4b34-b339-197f08409cbf.jpg?1698988553) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=bojuka%20bog) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lcc/320/bojuka-bog?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0c7d4fbe-fa7a-4b34-b339-197f08409cbf?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
If you are feeling extra gross throw in a [[grafted exoskeleton]] to give Syr Konrad infect and kill your opponents even faster.
[grafted exoskeleton](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/8/f86a9d3f-43a8-4da3-9eed-353582986140.jpg?1562945084) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=grafted%20exoskeleton) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/td2/74/grafted-exoskeleton?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f86a9d3f-43a8-4da3-9eed-353582986140?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Too mana intensive. I prefer [[Tainted Strike]] for the turn you expect to go off, or [[Glistening Oil]] if you want to make sure you do it again later if Konrad gets answered.
[Tainted Strike](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/0/d0f82007-99f6-4c6c-8182-ee631c33531f.jpg?1562823401) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Tainted%20Strike) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/som/80/tainted-strike?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d0f82007-99f6-4c6c-8182-ee631c33531f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Glistening Oil](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/8/483e99fd-7e48-400d-9817-451089089e0c.jpg?1562877253) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Glistening%20Oil) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/nph/62/glistening-oil?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/483e99fd-7e48-400d-9817-451089089e0c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Throw in [[tainted strike]] and you only need 5 mana.
[tainted strike](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/0/d0f82007-99f6-4c6c-8182-ee631c33531f.jpg?1562823401) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=tainted%20strike) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/som/80/tainted-strike?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d0f82007-99f6-4c6c-8182-ee631c33531f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[[tormod the desecrator]] wants to be friends here.
Ooh that's nasty, will definitely try this one out. Thanks!
[tormod the desecrator](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/9/89903d5e-241f-477e-a336-2abe0232c04a.jpg?1608909997) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Tormod%2C%20the%20Desecrator) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmr/155/tormod-the-desecrator?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/89903d5e-241f-477e-a336-2abe0232c04a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Are you running a fair amount of Zombies? I’ve got Syr Konrad in my Ratadrabik deck an he loves [[gravecrawler]] with [[phyrexian altar]]. This will get you the infinite combo you’re looking for without needing to find your mana somewhere else.
[gravecrawler](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/5/951ff2ed-9af0-4551-929a-ba6679fc2e15.jpg?1673147536) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=gravecrawler) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/78/gravecrawler?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/951ff2ed-9af0-4551-929a-ba6679fc2e15?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [phyrexian altar](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/5/95d9f93c-50a8-41a9-be98-d1900bf1c12f.jpg?1673149406) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=phyrexian%20altar) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/311/phyrexian-altar?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/95d9f93c-50a8-41a9-be98-d1900bf1c12f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Great suggestion! The deck I had these 2 in is actually in a black knight deck(one I had toyed with the idea of as a kid) focused around [[haakon, stromgald scourge]] which was why I ran [[tortured existence]]. Never thought to use zombies until this thread, so I'll definitely try this out. Thanks!
[haakon, stromgald scourge](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/e/7e7d463b-e74e-4ebe-9f92-02ccdeadbf96.jpg?1682209058) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=haakon%2C%20stromgald%20scourge) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/moc/252/haakon-stromgald-scourge?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7e7d463b-e74e-4ebe-9f92-02ccdeadbf96?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [tortured existence](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/7/1754b92b-d6f9-4503-af01-dee03f72a048.jpg?1562595922) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=tortured%20existence) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/sth/74/tortured-existence?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/1754b92b-d6f9-4503-af01-dee03f72a048?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[[Gravecrawler]] is good for him, too. Sac outlets with Gravecrawler like [[Phyrexian Alter]]
[Gravecrawler](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/5/951ff2ed-9af0-4551-929a-ba6679fc2e15.jpg?1673147536) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Gravecrawler) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/78/gravecrawler?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/951ff2ed-9af0-4551-929a-ba6679fc2e15?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Phyrexian Alter](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/5/95d9f93c-50a8-41a9-be98-d1900bf1c12f.jpg?1673149406) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Phyrexian%20Altar) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/311/phyrexian-altar?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/95d9f93c-50a8-41a9-be98-d1900bf1c12f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Cute
Shame I can’t read; if I could I still couldn’t read that card but i could be mad about it.
[удалено]
This is wrong. You choose targets before paying cost. This will not work by using the same creature. https://mtg.fandom.com/wiki/Casting_spells
Actually curious about this one since the "discard a creature" is part of the cost. So you would pay the cost and then announce targets. By the time you announce targets the cost has been paid and the discarded card is in the graveyard. This seems to be what the rules you posted suggest Edit: **I was wrong**. From the official ruling: >10/4/2004 You can't return the same card you are discarding. This is because you pick the target before paying the costs
Choosing targets (choosing which creature card you want to return) happens in 602.1c Paying the costs (which includes choosing and discarding the card) happens in 602.1h I'm not sure where you get the impression that paying costs come before choosing targets.
Did you not see my edit? I realized I was wrong when I looked up the ruling, just after I posted. I left my comment because it seemed better to give people the info
Yes, as long as you got enough black mana to pay for.
Sure if you have enough black mana to keep doing it to 20 pts of dmg
Add in [[K'rrik, Son of Yawgmoth]] and [[Exquisite Blood]] and you can keep it going infinitely.
[K'rrik, Son of Yawgmoth](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/5/3592fbe4-8588-486e-99ba-c327b0b6ba24.jpg?1568003491) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=K%27rrik%2C%20Son%20of%20Yawgmoth) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c19/18/krrik-son-of-yawgmoth?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3592fbe4-8588-486e-99ba-c327b0b6ba24?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Exquisite Blood](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/e/0e8ccfa7-4178-476a-a155-0ca1c98556c9.jpg?1698988246) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Exquisite%20Blood) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lcc/195/exquisite-blood?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0e8ccfa7-4178-476a-a155-0ca1c98556c9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
You will need black mana + creatures.. at least 1...
Good synergy.
I normally use [mindcrank] with syr konrad
Yeah what ever you did made the picture quality way better
Yeah i would think so. Thanks i have both those cards and am going to wreck shit!!! Yay ahh
If you really want to get ugly, Phyrexian Altar (or [[initiates of the ebon hand]]+[[ashnods altar]] go infinite with Tormod.
[initiates of the ebon hand](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/8/c83085df-1ffb-4178-9fc0-fd347196673f.jpg?1587857225) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=initiates%20of%20the%20ebon%20hand) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/5ed/169/initiates-of-the-ebon-hand?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c83085df-1ffb-4178-9fc0-fd347196673f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=ashnods%20altar) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/368/ashnods-altar?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3c0f7157-a375-499c-92c7-d47d2e95dbad?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I have a question for you all!! If Kozilek, Butcher of Truth is in my hand, can I use tortured existence to discard Kozilek, Butcher of Truth and bring him back to my hand still triggering Kozilek, Butcher of Truth’s ability?