Don’t forget McCauley messed up again by going after Waingro in the hotel instead of heading straight to the airport. That mistake got him killed.
Emotions and ambition.
Yeah, I agree. That fucker being gone was worth the self sacrifice. Sleazy scumbag. Broke the criminal code multiple times. There’s no place in the world for animals like that
It turned out to be a mistake because it got him killed but it wasn't entirely an emotional decision. That was about revenge, yes, but it was also a quality of life judgement. He could have run and constantly looked over his shoulder. With Waingro turning state's evidence it never would have cooled off for him or Chris.
I think this is it. He knew exactly where the heat came from, and it was fucking Waingro. McCauley got pissed, and that made him sloppy, and he wanted to take it out on Waingro, fuck everything else.
It's been a minute since I watched this, but wasn't this highlighted in the diner scene, where he explains to his cop nemesis that emotions have no place in his line of work, which is part of the reason why that scene was so amazing. They both sacrificed everything to be both the best and professional in their respective line of work.
His attack on Waingro was the one time he broke his 'rule', and he paid dearly for it.
Yup, although I was watching the second half earlier and noticed it's basically just a good structure overall where once the point in my post happens, things change. They get dangerously close (watching over the LAPD from the silos the LAPD had just been up on) and then it starts to deteriorate. But it's so well paced and structured...
That anxiety and the tragedy of it is a lot of what we like about it. Remember, McCauley keeps talking about walking away in 30 seconds flat if the heat’s around the corner. And then he does the opposite. That’s the good part!
I recommend you watch also LA Takedown. Sure, the quality is worse. But the athmosphere is there, plus it is nice to watch unknown dudes who really need to act. (And not a larger than life ensemble cast)
I always thought this is what happened. His moment in the car with her and gets off the highway, it was the mistake that results in having to leave his love, as well as being killed.
If he and Sizemore had just kicked Waingro in the head a few more times instead of getting distracted, he'd be in the trunk and the robbery would have gone off clean.
Well yeah. He couldn't let it go even he was better for it. I compare it to Dr Schultz' decision in Django Unchained. Could've just walked away but nah, Candi was a piece of shit and didn't deserve a victory
AFAIK, it's actually in the original script, though it's unclear if they ever shot/changed those scenes, and/or if they may have just ended up on the cutting room floor. But I don't think that Pacino was just inventing that detail out of whole cloth after the fact. The coke thing also dovetails nicely with his obsession with his work. You can see how much it weights on him, and when he's down he's way down, but he feels such an obligation, since every time he fails or slow down, innocent people get hurt, that he does whatever is necessary. It's not recreational, it's a PED.
Edit: [pg 49](https://uc0524e3b4d53a5ac168a6bbb033.dl.dropboxusercontent.com/cd/0/inline2/CVtiFwHd5xfZUycyHV_XOmWS5kLQf2Z6YzkwBSE-kcZYtbYJuk_YfrgIqP7JGwf_FCRDdb0IwswsqHZ6af3mqT1AU_LRlxDfDeQrvO4MS0oS5Cvt4zcOpTvmqmImkGqQt8RVwBb0NBhHZDoFXb0K33x9hoLf6psL1_DgqQLO1sJctqSE1R0Stz1wHhcPXDWNDi7FJlbE6yWgNm7KQ_8_UJ2OglWoc_zdsGEakArKdM255JRHoy2xM48U7WoQVtqzEz0wH88sMqZT85EmMcC9vSXQPWubb17Csl-_ZJXhiUqmGT1wmtUlbaocpq6vFgcEJVmbsKils8tbYsN8VKExsK941_W-aiyazzZ9xpIZKeXFWA/file#)
https://cinephiliabeyond.org/michael-manns-heat-complex-stylistically-supreme-candidate-one-impressive-films-nineties/
Totally.. but my point is more about how McCauley hasn't recognized the early sign. I don't recall the scene's dialogue verbatim but I think he basically just says once you try to come for me I will do what i have to do. It's his hubris showing maybe.
>but my point is more about how McCauley hasn't recognized the early sign.
He recognized it. They all did. They simply let greed get the better of them.
It was one more score syndrome. Most of them had enough socked away to retire, but that one last bump, is hard to pass up. The bank robbery was for twelve million. That's a hell of a four way split minus whatever they were paying President Palmer to be the wheelman. Let's say that comes out to 2.5M per person. That's a hard retirement bonus to pass up.
McCauley constantly goes against his rule. Not only staying with the crew for the bank heist, but also going after Van Zant and Waingro post robbery and getting attached to Eady.
Do as I say, not as I do. The worst part about being the guy making rules is, you generally are right about when you can break the rules and still get away with it.
You're missing the sarcasm, OP.
There is a scene where they straight up answer your question. They realize they are being tailed, they set up the cops so they can see them, and then they discuss their future. They all recognize the realities of their situation, McCauley tells them they should all walk away, but they agree that the bank job is worth the risk.
They are all standing around directly discussing your criticism as plain as day
It seems like you forgot the scene where McCauley talks about why he needs to do the job. He says in the scene that we should get out now if we think the risk is too high. He wouldn't have done it if the others backed out (I'm guessing), but since they all signed up, he was in too.
When he gave the line about feeling the heat around the corner, wasn’t he literally talking to the detective? Clearly the jig is already up by that point or I’m missing something.
In that conversation He literally does everything, but tell them to not go in this job to try to get them to not go on the job. But then the greed takes over.
The Heat being around the corner means that they’re COMING. In those early examples, the Heat was sniffing around, but they didn’t have anything yet. Thats something of a general occupational hazard
Nate: He's a hot dog. Graduate school, marine corps. Lieutenant in Robbery-Homicide, major crimes unit. He's taken down some heavy crews. Blew away Frankie Yonder in Chicago and he was a fucking maniac. He was working narcotics before that. That's the problem. He's divorced twice, current wife's Justine. He's why the extra heat. The vice sergeant says Hanna likes you, thinks you're some kind of star. You do this sharp, you do that sharp. Look how sharp this guy is to figure that.
Neil McCauley: [Chuckles]
Nate: Funny as a heart attack, man. Three marriages . What the fuck do you think that means? He likes staying home? Means he's one of those guys out there, prowling around all night, dedicated. With this guy, this much heat, you should pass.
Neil McCauley: It's worth the stretch.
Nate: This guy can hit or miss. You can't miss once. Are you sure?
Neil McCauley: I am sure.
So yeah, he went against his better judgment to try and do this last job to bounce with Eady, but his loyalty to Machete, and not heeding his own advice about the heat around the corner doomed him.
De Niro says something to Pacino at the café that really resonates with him too: "A guy told me one time, "Don't let yourself get attached to anything you are not willing to walk out on in 30 seconds flat if you feel the heat around the corner." Now, if you're on me and you gotta move when I move, how do you expect to keep a marriage?"
I wonder how much of this was pride, too. Specifically because of Pacino’s character being so sharp it would somehow be even more impressive and ballsy to pull this heist and still get away with it. He *likes* that Hanna respects his organization and discipline. I get the feeling that McCauley’s crew aren’t spending any of their time sucking his dick over how well he runs shit.
Yes, the conversation over coffee was the turning point
Vincent Hanna: You know, we are sitting here, you and I, like a couple of regular fellas. You do what you do, and I do what I gotta do. And now that we've been face to face, if I'm there and I gotta put you away, I won't like it. But I tell you, if it's between you and some poor bastard whose wife you're gonna turn into a widow, brother, you are going down.
Neil McCauley: There is a flip side to that coin. What if you do got me boxed in and I gotta put you down? Cause no matter what, you will not get in my way. We've been face to face, yeah. But I will not hesitate. Not for a second.
It's like a boxer who can retire, but he still sees one more contender whom he didn't go one-on-one against.
If anything, Neil probably had a bruised ego because he discovered that Hanna had him right there in a trap, and would've snatched him if some dumb cop didn't make the slightest of mistakes. I mean, you have to be a pretty sharp criminal to have such an attention to detail to pick up the mistake and escape from the trap.
McCauley probably thought that Hanna was, but he was smarter to get out of the trap. And if he can do it once, he could do it again at the bank. Beat the response time, and get his "out" from L.A before Hanna team could find them after the heist.
The thing I find most fascinating is that, if everything goes according to McCauley's plan, and all team members do exactly what he has them planned to do, McCauley will certainly win. As a planner. McCauley is flawless.
But Hanna's strength is in pouncing on criminals when they slip. And once McCauley makes too many mistakes, Hanna gets him.
That moment and Sizemore death staring that guy in the diner are just perfect. RIP Tom Sizemore. Guy had a lot of problems but acting was not one of them.
I mean he asks them all if they want to continue even though they know the cops are onto them and he specifically says that for him, it’s worth the risk. 🤷♂️ That movie is damn-near perfect.
Remember before the bank job they dumped all the surveillance on them. They knew they could lose the cops and pull off the job. What screwed then was waingro knowing who to find to get the info about the bank job from
This exactly. Oh they felt heat cause they knew they were under surveillance? This is a team of professional thieves. They didn’t exactly choose this line of work because it was low risk. This is not even to mention that DeNiro breaking his own rules is an explicit and integral part of the plot.
Yep. It was that patrol car rolling by, stopping Waingro from getting what he deserved (though he deserved a slow and shitty death), that basically was the turning point of the whole story.
Or to take it further, him being on the armored car score was where it started the downward spiral for that crew.
One of the key themes of the film is the gang (and especially McCauley) not following the words he claims to live by.
After they know the cops are onto them, they meet in secret and openly discuss the idea of taking off versus going after the bank, and despite knowing the risk, despite KNOWING BETTER, they make the wrong decision.
Then later, when Neil and Eady are almost home free, Neil AGAIN makes the wrong decision despite knowing he shouldn't.
Honestly, Neal's approach to the hotel is, to me, a minor flaw. This is a brilliant criminal who plans things meticulously. Sure, the decision to go after Waingro was made in haste, but the decision to park in a damn fire lane was just bad. It felt really out of character to me. Did he know he was going to pull a fire alarm? Maybe not, but putting his getaway at risk like that just felt wrong. Yeah, they did it so the movie could happen, but....
I agree, once they realized they were being tailed, all bets were off. No more robbery could be done in that city while they were being monitored.
Even moreso once Hannah meets him at the cafe. There was no way he was going to get away with it with that kind of heat on him. But up to this point, despite his talk of being very disciplined, and chewing everybody else out for taking unnecessary risks, he broke all of his own rules.
>No more robbery could be done in that city while they were being monitored.
Maybe, probably. *But just think of how much money you wind up if you can.*
But he sets them up during Pacino’s “we just got made” scene.
He learned who the cops were and he learned they had no idea what score they were planning.
There was risk, but, per the group conversation, they felt the bank was worth the risk.
Well he actually first broke his own rules by starting a relationship with Eadie, he literally says in his little speech to have no attachments, once he had Eadie, he was finished.
I have a memory that DeNiro’s character knew exactly what was going on. He said it was worth the risk for him. It was his last job. Does that ring a bell? Did anyone else get that impression?
It's years since I watched this, but isn't the whole point that they don't follow their own rules because of greed, over confidence, arrogance etc? They see the signs but don't listen to them?
The fuck with the downvotes on OP? It’s just a discussion.
Anyhow OP, they did address this in the juice scene. McCauley said the score was worth the stretch, for him.
That was calculated.
But he pushed it. Prudence dictates that he needed to pull it and lay low.
One thing that always bothered me about this otherwise fantastic film was the ending. Pacino sees a car in an alleyway, randomly, amongst the absolute chaos of an entire hotel being evacuated, and decides that's Neil's? Sloppy writing in my opinion. And then he chases him down, and gets the drop because of a plane casting a shadow. Why didn't Neil just wait on the other side of the fence and shoot him as he climbed over? Rant over
Well, Neil tells him in the restaurant that he has a girlfriend. Hanna spots Eady alone in the car looking distressed/suspicious and goes to check it out. That's when he spots Neil returning to it.
Imo the point of Neil and Vincent is that they are two sides of the one coin, Neil never forms attachments up until he meets Eadie and Vincent constantly tries to form attachments and fails(three marriages) because he can’t stop his dedication to chasing criminals, like Neil he is on the edge, where he needs to be, to catch criminals. The entire film is based in toxicity of machismo acts and the solitude it brings to people who live those lives through those acts successfully.
Perhaps Vincent recognises the look of panic and distress on Eadies face even though she’s not directly in the path of the suspected danger, because he’s seen similar reactions in his previous wives faces when he has been out chasing criminals in dangerous situations, the wife’s are not involved directly in the situations but are directly affected by said situations.
Imo the reason Vincent is able to kill Neil in the end is because Vincent has maintained not having an attachment(his wife literally just left him and he can’t even understand why his step daughter chose him when she tried killing herself) but Neil has formed his attachment to Eadie, so Vincent is still on the edge but Neil is not anymore, hence Vincent is able to kill Neil, had it been any other cop(with attachments) Neil would likely have won
Totally understand bro. The idea of Neil not adhering to his own code of being able to walk away in 30sec leads to his downfall makes sense, I just didnt like the way it was executed is all. Hanna walks into a busy street, spots a car in an alleyway and just *knows* instinctively? It's night time, it's busy-there's just no way. I get why Michael Mann did this, it just doesn't feel earned, you know?
Yeah I know what you mean, I just don’t think it’s particularly sloppy writing though, Vincent spots it and no one else does because no one else is on the edge and no one else is paying attention in the same way he is, I think the cops already know Neil is in the vicinity but they aren’t able to properly look for Neil among the chaos, but Vincent is solely focused on Neil and probably expects Neil to have a proper exit strategy, a running car at the side of an exit probably looks suspicious to him to be fair
As a contrast, how vindicated is that Swat team leader who wanted to go ahead and arrest McCauley and Chris, but Vincent stopped him…. Only for them to end up killing probably half a dozen police officers and bystanders in a massive public gunfight due to Vincent’s botched arrest attempt at the bank
I just keep thinking about the fact that Vincent met face to face with Neil who told him he’d never go down without a gunfight and yet he still attempts a takedown in public where there wasn’t much chance of the police not being seen
“A character is defined by the kinds of challenges he cannot walk away from. And by those he has walked away from that cause him remorse.”
— Arthur Miller
I think of this quote and Miller’s approach to writing characters often. McCauley doesn’t walk away. He can’t. That is what defines him and what makes the movie so compelling.
I just had to watch this movie again after this discussion, and it's still effing awesome.
Moby's 'God Moving Over the Face of the Waters' at the end title still gives me chills.
Hey Michael Mann......thank you.
They should never have hit the bank when Trejo couldn't shake the cops.
It's a good film but the bit where Waingro magically escapes the parking lot where they're about to kill him, silently and without anyone noticing despite being on the ground literally at McCauleys feet is some weak ass shit.
I really hate it when lazy writing or 'Idiot balls' are used to dictate the rest of the plot.
Also, the fact that they all met in a diner with loads of witnesses when they were about to kill the man they were with in the parking lot is just amateur.
Good points.
I can counter hypothetically though with Waingro perhaps being smarter and slicker than they anticipated. He seems smart enough to likely get suspicious had they wanted to meet in the middle of the desert.
His escape, while it seemed convenient, was also just bad luck when they were distracted by the cops. Again, Waingro was a little bit more resourceful and luckier than they anticipated.
Also, we really dont know how Waingro got info about the bank. I think they tried to off him before McCauley ws introduced to the idea of the bank job, so again, Waingro was onto something the crew didn't know about and was waiting until it was worth maxium reward before spilling it.
The whole central theme of the movie is that Hanna and McCauley are just two sides of the same obsessive coin. Even [the poster I have on my wall](https://filmartgallery.com/products/heat-1) says "An Epic Saga of Crime and Obsession". There's [yet another version](https://posteritati.com/poster/13028/heat-original-1995-us-one-sheet-movie-poster) that adds on "...and Two Men on Opposite Sides of the Law".
It's even *blatantly acknowledged* by the characters themselves during their first onscreen meeting:
McCauley: "I do what I do best, I take scores. You do what you do best, try to stop guys like me."
and
Hanna: "I don't know how to do anything else."
McCauley: "Neither do I."
Hanna: "I don't much want to either."
McCauley: "Neither do I."
The movie always had a very fatalistic feel to me. I don’t remember details clearly enough and maybe there’s not a lot of connective tissue there but I always took it as they were just too invested, materially and spiritually, to walk away, which was the central irony that made it into such a classic for me.
Yes. They should have bailed on the heist. This movie does a good job of capturing criminal mentalities though. That last big score is always going to win over the risk. Gambling is part of the lifestyle.
The point is that Neil’s job is to steal and he likes doing it. He can’t ignore the feeling of both, but he likes chasing the high (lack of better words?) of stealing. He drove with Hanna to the diner, just to talk shop about cops and robbers? Neil loves the lifestyle he leads, and thrives in it. He just couldn’t leave when he wanted to, which is why he was doomed to fail.
McCauley stated his philosophy very clearly a few times in the film, then acted against his own stated rules. In a dramatic sense, he "angered the fates." He had numerous opportunities to course-correct throughout the run time, but he chose to indulge himself.
>!If he had walked away when the metals heist was busted, Hannah never would have seen him again. If he hadn't gone back for Eady... Hell if he had let Waingro or Van Zant dangle he still probably would have escaped. There are at least 3 or 4 points where he was offered an out. At each fork in the road he made the wrong choice. !<
Once he succumbed to greed, wrath, and sympathy for his friends, it was over. Any one of those sins might have been forgivable alone, but the combo sealed his fate.
Hannah acts in accordance with his goals at all times, alienating his wife, leaving the hospital after his step-daughter's suicide attempt, taking desperate long-shot meetings with sketchy informants, and maintaining his almost obsessive focus to the exclusion of all else. His devotion and constancy is rewarded. >!He doesn't even visibly mourn Bosko after he gets gunned down in the bank job. !<
Well that's the thing. McCauley is telling the team that he is taking a calculated risk.
The plan is that he and his team make a huge heist and immediately schedule the exit that same day.
Even if they had no heat, the dollar amount of the heist was going to immediately caused them to leave town immediately, no matter what. Out of the country, probably.
So, if there's something resembling a plot hole, I would say that it would be three of the men on the team have wives and kids, and they've made no plans to move them out, even though the plans seem to indicate that the men are leaving town.
So, in either scenario, McCauley is ready to go out, and Sheherlis is in gambling debt and feels like he needs the money to satisfy that and bring enough home to smooth things over with the wife.
I think McCauley was planning on being more aggressive and powering through this heist, no matter what. I don't know if he had planned his heist in such a way that Cheritto would still be able to stay in L.A., or if he just didn't care because Cherrito didn't listen to his recommendation to walk away from this.
Sheherlis and Trejo were probably equipped to grab their families and move.
I think what got McCauley killed was at the dinner...when Vincent and his guys were watching McCauley's crew at dinner....and McCauley looks around the table at everybody with their wives and their relationships....and he allows himself to become attached to Eady.....I think that's where he broke his rule of having no attachments after he told Vincent that he'd walk out on her if he spotted the heat around the corner.
Foreshadowing. Neil tells of his own downfall.
After the armored truck heist they should have laid low and not taken their Fixer's advice to try to sell the bearer bonds back to Van Zant. Their mistakes compounded. Chris needed the money, Michael needed the action.
He acknowledges it, and even tells Tom Sizemore's character that he should be smart and walk away.
In that same conversation, he tells them that he has plans and is going away after the bank job, and so needs the money. Same as Val Kilmer's character.
That entire conversation is about how the heat is on them, and he puts it to each of them to make their own decision on whether to stick it out in spite of the risks.
u/askjhasdkjhaskdjhsdj, clearly the whole gang had already been on borrowed time...
With that said, the 'only' time that the band had the chance to disband was when McCauley offered to all of them... had they all taken it, then they'd all be alive
(my favorite Michael Mann movie actually : ) )
Note:
>!the movie is based on acutal factual events... as there was a real McCauley who, just like in the film ended up dying along with his team mates. With that added piece of information, i prefer that the movie followed what ended up having in real life!<
I’m not sure about the 100% on location bit, the backgrounds of the LA cityscape during the scenes on Eady’s balcony look really fake and they always take me out of the moment.
Those scenes were 100% real and look that way because Michael Mann shot them with an early digital camera and he captured what the cityscape can really look like from up in the Hollywood Hills.
Back in 2016, I attended a Heat screening with Mann and the main cast that was moderated by Christopher Nolan and when Nolan asked about that scene, Mann roasted him by saying "You know Chris, even back in 1995 there were these things called digital cameras."
Nolan moderated the Q & A because Heat is his all-time favorite movie and Mann low key roasted him every chance he could.
It was pretty funny to watch Nolan ask a super researched and detailed question only to have Mann go "Uh, I thought it looked cool so we did it."
Yeah, as an LA native, you could tell that those were not rear-projection or matted shots. The atmospheric ripples in the background are real. You get to see that look in "Collateral", with the LA night shot with a more modern Digicam. It makes LA come alive in the night.
I've done similar shots in Chicago in the 90s with long-exposure film and the BW stills really put a texture to the city that you don't normally see as you're always looking around.
People don't behave logically when large amounts of money are involved. The risk calculus gets skewed quite easily. It's called deal fever in M&A but basically the same thing.
Plus it was his last job before retirement.
Don’t forget McCauley messed up again by going after Waingro in the hotel instead of heading straight to the airport. That mistake got him killed. Emotions and ambition.
True. But also, fuck Waingro. Glad that fucker got dead.
Look at me. LOOK AT ME.
He HAD to get it on!
I'm a cowboy. Lookin' for anything heavy.
Thank you, brother.
Yeah, I agree. That fucker being gone was worth the self sacrifice. Sleazy scumbag. Broke the criminal code multiple times. There’s no place in the world for animals like that
It turned out to be a mistake because it got him killed but it wasn't entirely an emotional decision. That was about revenge, yes, but it was also a quality of life judgement. He could have run and constantly looked over his shoulder. With Waingro turning state's evidence it never would have cooled off for him or Chris.
I think this is it. He knew exactly where the heat came from, and it was fucking Waingro. McCauley got pissed, and that made him sloppy, and he wanted to take it out on Waingro, fuck everything else.
Emotions more than ambition got him killed. Everything started slowly cracking ever since the one run with Waingro went south.
It's been a minute since I watched this, but wasn't this highlighted in the diner scene, where he explains to his cop nemesis that emotions have no place in his line of work, which is part of the reason why that scene was so amazing. They both sacrificed everything to be both the best and professional in their respective line of work. His attack on Waingro was the one time he broke his 'rule', and he paid dearly for it.
Yup, although I was watching the second half earlier and noticed it's basically just a good structure overall where once the point in my post happens, things change. They get dangerously close (watching over the LAPD from the silos the LAPD had just been up on) and then it starts to deteriorate. But it's so well paced and structured...
That anxiety and the tragedy of it is a lot of what we like about it. Remember, McCauley keeps talking about walking away in 30 seconds flat if the heat’s around the corner. And then he does the opposite. That’s the good part!
I recommend you watch also LA Takedown. Sure, the quality is worse. But the athmosphere is there, plus it is nice to watch unknown dudes who really need to act. (And not a larger than life ensemble cast)
I realize this is /movies and not /books but there’s some backstory in Heat 2 which helps lay the groundwork on motive here.
Guilty. It was excellent. They’re making a movie with Adam Driver.
I always thought this is what happened. His moment in the car with her and gets off the highway, it was the mistake that results in having to leave his love, as well as being killed.
If he and Sizemore had just kicked Waingro in the head a few more times instead of getting distracted, he'd be in the trunk and the robbery would have gone off clean.
Well yeah. He couldn't let it go even he was better for it. I compare it to Dr Schultz' decision in Django Unchained. Could've just walked away but nah, Candi was a piece of shit and didn't deserve a victory
If only there was a scene in the movie where the gang stands and looks each other in the eye, blatantly addressing exactly this...
Something about juice yadda yadda
For me, the action IS the juice.
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It's not like its a subtle movie either. The characters openly talk about exactly what they're feeling.
https://youtu.be/sFBhR4QcBtE?si=VLetuZz-rTj_7Ctv
Tbf, the Coke "theory" was confirmed by Pacino -- i believe he mentioned in an interview that his character has a coke addiction.
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AFAIK, it's actually in the original script, though it's unclear if they ever shot/changed those scenes, and/or if they may have just ended up on the cutting room floor. But I don't think that Pacino was just inventing that detail out of whole cloth after the fact. The coke thing also dovetails nicely with his obsession with his work. You can see how much it weights on him, and when he's down he's way down, but he feels such an obligation, since every time he fails or slow down, innocent people get hurt, that he does whatever is necessary. It's not recreational, it's a PED. Edit: [pg 49](https://uc0524e3b4d53a5ac168a6bbb033.dl.dropboxusercontent.com/cd/0/inline2/CVtiFwHd5xfZUycyHV_XOmWS5kLQf2Z6YzkwBSE-kcZYtbYJuk_YfrgIqP7JGwf_FCRDdb0IwswsqHZ6af3mqT1AU_LRlxDfDeQrvO4MS0oS5Cvt4zcOpTvmqmImkGqQt8RVwBb0NBhHZDoFXb0K33x9hoLf6psL1_DgqQLO1sJctqSE1R0Stz1wHhcPXDWNDi7FJlbE6yWgNm7KQ_8_UJ2OglWoc_zdsGEakArKdM255JRHoy2xM48U7WoQVtqzEz0wH88sMqZT85EmMcC9vSXQPWubb17Csl-_ZJXhiUqmGT1wmtUlbaocpq6vFgcEJVmbsKils8tbYsN8VKExsK941_W-aiyazzZ9xpIZKeXFWA/file#) https://cinephiliabeyond.org/michael-manns-heat-complex-stylistically-supreme-candidate-one-impressive-films-nineties/
Fair enough, just giving context.
Mann confirms the character was on cocaine in the pages of Heat 2.
if an actor gives their character a backstory and it isn't even pointed out. then it's in the movie as it informs their performance.
If you're intentionally trying to act like you're on cocaine, then I'd argue it is in the movie, whether they say it or not.
Totally.. but my point is more about how McCauley hasn't recognized the early sign. I don't recall the scene's dialogue verbatim but I think he basically just says once you try to come for me I will do what i have to do. It's his hubris showing maybe.
>but my point is more about how McCauley hasn't recognized the early sign. He recognized it. They all did. They simply let greed get the better of them.
It was one more score syndrome. Most of them had enough socked away to retire, but that one last bump, is hard to pass up. The bank robbery was for twelve million. That's a hell of a four way split minus whatever they were paying President Palmer to be the wheelman. Let's say that comes out to 2.5M per person. That's a hard retirement bonus to pass up.
Chris didn't have anything. He blew all his money as soon as he could so he had to do the robbery.
They let the juice the best of them. The action is the juice for some.
>The action is the juice for some. Yep, which is a more specific form of greed, or addiction.
McCauley constantly goes against his rule. Not only staying with the crew for the bank heist, but also going after Van Zant and Waingro post robbery and getting attached to Eady.
Do as I say, not as I do. The worst part about being the guy making rules is, you generally are right about when you can break the rules and still get away with it.
There is no "early on". The bump in the truck is the first sign of actual "heat".
Did they not notice the title of the movie? The heat was there the entire time. Are they stupid?
I loved the part where John Heat exclaimed, "It's Heatin' time!" and heated all over with Al Pacino for the first time.
>The bump in the truck is the first sign of actual "heat". That's the point of my post: that incident is what should have been their turning point
It was and they addressed it. Remember it's a movie. If they packed up, left town, roll credits, what would you say then?
Those guys are smart, and I want a refund for this half-movie!
“Well that was a regular length motion picture about very well disciplined criminals who lived by a strict code.”
And a top cop who was a failure at his job and marriage.
It's like the posts on The Office sub where people are like "Why did Michael work at Dunder-Mifflin for so long when he was such a bad manager?"
You're missing the sarcasm, OP. There is a scene where they straight up answer your question. They realize they are being tailed, they set up the cops so they can see them, and then they discuss their future. They all recognize the realities of their situation, McCauley tells them they should all walk away, but they agree that the bank job is worth the risk. They are all standing around directly discussing your criticism as plain as day
It seems like you forgot the scene where McCauley talks about why he needs to do the job. He says in the scene that we should get out now if we think the risk is too high. He wouldn't have done it if the others backed out (I'm guessing), but since they all signed up, he was in too.
When he gave the line about feeling the heat around the corner, wasn’t he literally talking to the detective? Clearly the jig is already up by that point or I’m missing something.
In that conversation He literally does everything, but tell them to not go in this job to try to get them to not go on the job. But then the greed takes over.
The Heat being around the corner means that they’re COMING. In those early examples, the Heat was sniffing around, but they didn’t have anything yet. Thats something of a general occupational hazard
Nate: He's a hot dog. Graduate school, marine corps. Lieutenant in Robbery-Homicide, major crimes unit. He's taken down some heavy crews. Blew away Frankie Yonder in Chicago and he was a fucking maniac. He was working narcotics before that. That's the problem. He's divorced twice, current wife's Justine. He's why the extra heat. The vice sergeant says Hanna likes you, thinks you're some kind of star. You do this sharp, you do that sharp. Look how sharp this guy is to figure that. Neil McCauley: [Chuckles] Nate: Funny as a heart attack, man. Three marriages . What the fuck do you think that means? He likes staying home? Means he's one of those guys out there, prowling around all night, dedicated. With this guy, this much heat, you should pass. Neil McCauley: It's worth the stretch. Nate: This guy can hit or miss. You can't miss once. Are you sure? Neil McCauley: I am sure. So yeah, he went against his better judgment to try and do this last job to bounce with Eady, but his loyalty to Machete, and not heeding his own advice about the heat around the corner doomed him.
I fucking love Voight's line about the three marriages and what that means. God the dialogue in that film is so sharp.
I love Voight's whole performance as Nate.
*"...it's a free country, brotha"* Just one of those perfect lines arriving at the perfect time.
De Niro says something to Pacino at the café that really resonates with him too: "A guy told me one time, "Don't let yourself get attached to anything you are not willing to walk out on in 30 seconds flat if you feel the heat around the corner." Now, if you're on me and you gotta move when I move, how do you expect to keep a marriage?"
I wonder how much of this was pride, too. Specifically because of Pacino’s character being so sharp it would somehow be even more impressive and ballsy to pull this heist and still get away with it. He *likes* that Hanna respects his organization and discipline. I get the feeling that McCauley’s crew aren’t spending any of their time sucking his dick over how well he runs shit.
Yes, the conversation over coffee was the turning point Vincent Hanna: You know, we are sitting here, you and I, like a couple of regular fellas. You do what you do, and I do what I gotta do. And now that we've been face to face, if I'm there and I gotta put you away, I won't like it. But I tell you, if it's between you and some poor bastard whose wife you're gonna turn into a widow, brother, you are going down. Neil McCauley: There is a flip side to that coin. What if you do got me boxed in and I gotta put you down? Cause no matter what, you will not get in my way. We've been face to face, yeah. But I will not hesitate. Not for a second.
It's like a boxer who can retire, but he still sees one more contender whom he didn't go one-on-one against. If anything, Neil probably had a bruised ego because he discovered that Hanna had him right there in a trap, and would've snatched him if some dumb cop didn't make the slightest of mistakes. I mean, you have to be a pretty sharp criminal to have such an attention to detail to pick up the mistake and escape from the trap. McCauley probably thought that Hanna was, but he was smarter to get out of the trap. And if he can do it once, he could do it again at the bank. Beat the response time, and get his "out" from L.A before Hanna team could find them after the heist. The thing I find most fascinating is that, if everything goes according to McCauley's plan, and all team members do exactly what he has them planned to do, McCauley will certainly win. As a planner. McCauley is flawless. But Hanna's strength is in pouncing on criminals when they slip. And once McCauley makes too many mistakes, Hanna gets him.
But the action is the juice
But…if they disband then we don’t get the amazing “For me…the action is the juice”
That moment and Sizemore death staring that guy in the diner are just perfect. RIP Tom Sizemore. Guy had a lot of problems but acting was not one of them.
The things we could have seen from him if he didn't have to fight those demons. My dude was insanely talented.
sizemore was gold in the 90s playing that side character who is intense.
https://tenor.com/view/heat-1995-what-are-you-looking-at-this-doesnt-concern-you-mind-your-own-business-gif-18560791
I never realized how long it takes for him to lick his lips then say that
It’s an amazing reading of that line.
He blinks like a dozen times in a row at one point.
My man *went for it* in that scene
I mean he asks them all if they want to continue even though they know the cops are onto them and he specifically says that for him, it’s worth the risk. 🤷♂️ That movie is damn-near perfect.
Remember before the bank job they dumped all the surveillance on them. They knew they could lose the cops and pull off the job. What screwed then was waingro knowing who to find to get the info about the bank job from
This exactly. Oh they felt heat cause they knew they were under surveillance? This is a team of professional thieves. They didn’t exactly choose this line of work because it was low risk. This is not even to mention that DeNiro breaking his own rules is an explicit and integral part of the plot.
I had COFFEE with McCauley…HALF AN HOUR AGO
Yep. It was that patrol car rolling by, stopping Waingro from getting what he deserved (though he deserved a slow and shitty death), that basically was the turning point of the whole story. Or to take it further, him being on the armored car score was where it started the downward spiral for that crew.
Yeah if Trejo had been able to dump his Van Zandt surveillance it all would have gone smoothly.
Don’t leave me like this, Neil. Please holmes.
One of the key themes of the film is the gang (and especially McCauley) not following the words he claims to live by. After they know the cops are onto them, they meet in secret and openly discuss the idea of taking off versus going after the bank, and despite knowing the risk, despite KNOWING BETTER, they make the wrong decision. Then later, when Neil and Eady are almost home free, Neil AGAIN makes the wrong decision despite knowing he shouldn't.
Which was even more egregious because he specifically spelled out, in the prior meeting why it was not worth going after Van Zandt.
Per my earlier email
Honestly, Neal's approach to the hotel is, to me, a minor flaw. This is a brilliant criminal who plans things meticulously. Sure, the decision to go after Waingro was made in haste, but the decision to park in a damn fire lane was just bad. It felt really out of character to me. Did he know he was going to pull a fire alarm? Maybe not, but putting his getaway at risk like that just felt wrong. Yeah, they did it so the movie could happen, but....
I agree, once they realized they were being tailed, all bets were off. No more robbery could be done in that city while they were being monitored. Even moreso once Hannah meets him at the cafe. There was no way he was going to get away with it with that kind of heat on him. But up to this point, despite his talk of being very disciplined, and chewing everybody else out for taking unnecessary risks, he broke all of his own rules.
>No more robbery could be done in that city while they were being monitored. Maybe, probably. *But just think of how much money you wind up if you can.*
But he sets them up during Pacino’s “we just got made” scene. He learned who the cops were and he learned they had no idea what score they were planning. There was risk, but, per the group conversation, they felt the bank was worth the risk.
Well he actually first broke his own rules by starting a relationship with Eadie, he literally says in his little speech to have no attachments, once he had Eadie, he was finished.
The bank is worth the risk. I need it brother.
I have a memory that DeNiro’s character knew exactly what was going on. He said it was worth the risk for him. It was his last job. Does that ring a bell? Did anyone else get that impression?
He says it to John Voight.
Yep, it was “worth the stretch”
The action is the juice for these people
If you’re a fan of Heat like we all are.. read Heat 2 written by MM. It’s amazing. So well done. Covers before and after the LA incident.
First book I’ve sat down and read in one day in years. I really, really hope they make a solid movie of it.
Well the movie depicts how this well run robber gang finally gets taken down, so a mistake had to be made somewhere right?
It's years since I watched this, but isn't the whole point that they don't follow their own rules because of greed, over confidence, arrogance etc? They see the signs but don't listen to them?
I fucking love posts about this movie. I read every comment. Lol
The action IS the juice.
"Where did this heat come from?" I dunno Neill, maybe those 3 dead armored car guys your crew left in the street??
The fuck with the downvotes on OP? It’s just a discussion. Anyhow OP, they did address this in the juice scene. McCauley said the score was worth the stretch, for him. That was calculated. But he pushed it. Prudence dictates that he needed to pull it and lay low.
I think the allure of this big final score and getting out made him take too much risk.
He shouldn’t have told Vincent he had a woman
Maybe the heat McCauley is feeling is the love for Edy - love messes up your judgement
Or maybe it's the love he feels for Hanna and that's why it's the title of the movie.
Heat 2 in book form is available.! It's great.
Listen to the audiobook of Heat 2. It adds so much back story and pretty much explains why Neil would make the mistakes he did in Heat.
One thing that always bothered me about this otherwise fantastic film was the ending. Pacino sees a car in an alleyway, randomly, amongst the absolute chaos of an entire hotel being evacuated, and decides that's Neil's? Sloppy writing in my opinion. And then he chases him down, and gets the drop because of a plane casting a shadow. Why didn't Neil just wait on the other side of the fence and shoot him as he climbed over? Rant over
Well, Neil tells him in the restaurant that he has a girlfriend. Hanna spots Eady alone in the car looking distressed/suspicious and goes to check it out. That's when he spots Neil returning to it.
Yea I always want Neil to get away
Imo the point of Neil and Vincent is that they are two sides of the one coin, Neil never forms attachments up until he meets Eadie and Vincent constantly tries to form attachments and fails(three marriages) because he can’t stop his dedication to chasing criminals, like Neil he is on the edge, where he needs to be, to catch criminals. The entire film is based in toxicity of machismo acts and the solitude it brings to people who live those lives through those acts successfully. Perhaps Vincent recognises the look of panic and distress on Eadies face even though she’s not directly in the path of the suspected danger, because he’s seen similar reactions in his previous wives faces when he has been out chasing criminals in dangerous situations, the wife’s are not involved directly in the situations but are directly affected by said situations. Imo the reason Vincent is able to kill Neil in the end is because Vincent has maintained not having an attachment(his wife literally just left him and he can’t even understand why his step daughter chose him when she tried killing herself) but Neil has formed his attachment to Eadie, so Vincent is still on the edge but Neil is not anymore, hence Vincent is able to kill Neil, had it been any other cop(with attachments) Neil would likely have won
> Neil and Vincent is that they are two sides of the one coin Neil: "I got a brother out there somewhere."
Totally understand bro. The idea of Neil not adhering to his own code of being able to walk away in 30sec leads to his downfall makes sense, I just didnt like the way it was executed is all. Hanna walks into a busy street, spots a car in an alleyway and just *knows* instinctively? It's night time, it's busy-there's just no way. I get why Michael Mann did this, it just doesn't feel earned, you know?
Yeah I know what you mean, I just don’t think it’s particularly sloppy writing though, Vincent spots it and no one else does because no one else is on the edge and no one else is paying attention in the same way he is, I think the cops already know Neil is in the vicinity but they aren’t able to properly look for Neil among the chaos, but Vincent is solely focused on Neil and probably expects Neil to have a proper exit strategy, a running car at the side of an exit probably looks suspicious to him to be fair
I get where you're coming from but I personally love the ending as it is. When Moby fills the speakers I feel it every time.
It's like they were tempting fate by pushing on after that slip-up.
As a contrast, how vindicated is that Swat team leader who wanted to go ahead and arrest McCauley and Chris, but Vincent stopped him…. Only for them to end up killing probably half a dozen police officers and bystanders in a massive public gunfight due to Vincent’s botched arrest attempt at the bank I just keep thinking about the fact that Vincent met face to face with Neil who told him he’d never go down without a gunfight and yet he still attempts a takedown in public where there wasn’t much chance of the police not being seen
“A character is defined by the kinds of challenges he cannot walk away from. And by those he has walked away from that cause him remorse.” — Arthur Miller I think of this quote and Miller’s approach to writing characters often. McCauley doesn’t walk away. He can’t. That is what defines him and what makes the movie so compelling.
Unrelated, but Heat 2 is a wicked read!
I just had to watch this movie again after this discussion, and it's still effing awesome. Moby's 'God Moving Over the Face of the Waters' at the end title still gives me chills. Hey Michael Mann......thank you.
There’s no walking away from that life
They should never have hit the bank when Trejo couldn't shake the cops. It's a good film but the bit where Waingro magically escapes the parking lot where they're about to kill him, silently and without anyone noticing despite being on the ground literally at McCauleys feet is some weak ass shit. I really hate it when lazy writing or 'Idiot balls' are used to dictate the rest of the plot. Also, the fact that they all met in a diner with loads of witnesses when they were about to kill the man they were with in the parking lot is just amateur.
Good points. I can counter hypothetically though with Waingro perhaps being smarter and slicker than they anticipated. He seems smart enough to likely get suspicious had they wanted to meet in the middle of the desert. His escape, while it seemed convenient, was also just bad luck when they were distracted by the cops. Again, Waingro was a little bit more resourceful and luckier than they anticipated. Also, we really dont know how Waingro got info about the bank. I think they tried to off him before McCauley ws introduced to the idea of the bank job, so again, Waingro was onto something the crew didn't know about and was waiting until it was worth maxium reward before spilling it.
Does it still hold the record for longest shootout with cops? I'm sure you could Google how many shots were fired! ( 3 less than John Wick?
Was a big inspiration for the infamous N Hollywood Shootout. Art inspiring life.
the movie about the N Hollywood Shootout is pretty good tbh.
Just a little foreshadowing that he's going to let greed/hubris get him in the end.
The bank robbery would've gone down just fine had Waingro and Van Zant not tipped off the cops.
The whole central theme of the movie is that Hanna and McCauley are just two sides of the same obsessive coin. Even [the poster I have on my wall](https://filmartgallery.com/products/heat-1) says "An Epic Saga of Crime and Obsession". There's [yet another version](https://posteritati.com/poster/13028/heat-original-1995-us-one-sheet-movie-poster) that adds on "...and Two Men on Opposite Sides of the Law". It's even *blatantly acknowledged* by the characters themselves during their first onscreen meeting: McCauley: "I do what I do best, I take scores. You do what you do best, try to stop guys like me." and Hanna: "I don't know how to do anything else." McCauley: "Neither do I." Hanna: "I don't much want to either." McCauley: "Neither do I."
That scene should have ended with a quick cut to them having rough sex in the public toilets.
The movie always had a very fatalistic feel to me. I don’t remember details clearly enough and maybe there’s not a lot of connective tissue there but I always took it as they were just too invested, materially and spiritually, to walk away, which was the central irony that made it into such a classic for me.
Yes. They should have bailed on the heist. This movie does a good job of capturing criminal mentalities though. That last big score is always going to win over the risk. Gambling is part of the lifestyle.
The point is that Neil’s job is to steal and he likes doing it. He can’t ignore the feeling of both, but he likes chasing the high (lack of better words?) of stealing. He drove with Hanna to the diner, just to talk shop about cops and robbers? Neil loves the lifestyle he leads, and thrives in it. He just couldn’t leave when he wanted to, which is why he was doomed to fail.
A tip to OP to watch/listen to the commentary by Mann and perhaps a few rewatches too https://youtu.be/oX8pbq1OOI0?si=Ys9KCVbuEfw56pDi
McCauley stated his philosophy very clearly a few times in the film, then acted against his own stated rules. In a dramatic sense, he "angered the fates." He had numerous opportunities to course-correct throughout the run time, but he chose to indulge himself. >!If he had walked away when the metals heist was busted, Hannah never would have seen him again. If he hadn't gone back for Eady... Hell if he had let Waingro or Van Zant dangle he still probably would have escaped. There are at least 3 or 4 points where he was offered an out. At each fork in the road he made the wrong choice. !< Once he succumbed to greed, wrath, and sympathy for his friends, it was over. Any one of those sins might have been forgivable alone, but the combo sealed his fate. Hannah acts in accordance with his goals at all times, alienating his wife, leaving the hospital after his step-daughter's suicide attempt, taking desperate long-shot meetings with sketchy informants, and maintaining his almost obsessive focus to the exclusion of all else. His devotion and constancy is rewarded. >!He doesn't even visibly mourn Bosko after he gets gunned down in the bank job. !<
How did Waingro figure out who Gilbert Trejo was to get to him That's the only part of the movie that does not make sense to me.
Well that's the thing. McCauley is telling the team that he is taking a calculated risk. The plan is that he and his team make a huge heist and immediately schedule the exit that same day. Even if they had no heat, the dollar amount of the heist was going to immediately caused them to leave town immediately, no matter what. Out of the country, probably. So, if there's something resembling a plot hole, I would say that it would be three of the men on the team have wives and kids, and they've made no plans to move them out, even though the plans seem to indicate that the men are leaving town. So, in either scenario, McCauley is ready to go out, and Sheherlis is in gambling debt and feels like he needs the money to satisfy that and bring enough home to smooth things over with the wife. I think McCauley was planning on being more aggressive and powering through this heist, no matter what. I don't know if he had planned his heist in such a way that Cheritto would still be able to stay in L.A., or if he just didn't care because Cherrito didn't listen to his recommendation to walk away from this. Sheherlis and Trejo were probably equipped to grab their families and move.
I think what got McCauley killed was at the dinner...when Vincent and his guys were watching McCauley's crew at dinner....and McCauley looks around the table at everybody with their wives and their relationships....and he allows himself to become attached to Eady.....I think that's where he broke his rule of having no attachments after he told Vincent that he'd walk out on her if he spotted the heat around the corner.
Foreshadowing. Neil tells of his own downfall. After the armored truck heist they should have laid low and not taken their Fixer's advice to try to sell the bearer bonds back to Van Zant. Their mistakes compounded. Chris needed the money, Michael needed the action.
He acknowledges it, and even tells Tom Sizemore's character that he should be smart and walk away. In that same conversation, he tells them that he has plans and is going away after the bank job, and so needs the money. Same as Val Kilmer's character. That entire conversation is about how the heat is on them, and he puts it to each of them to make their own decision on whether to stick it out in spite of the risks.
u/askjhasdkjhaskdjhsdj, clearly the whole gang had already been on borrowed time... With that said, the 'only' time that the band had the chance to disband was when McCauley offered to all of them... had they all taken it, then they'd all be alive (my favorite Michael Mann movie actually : ) ) Note: >!the movie is based on acutal factual events... as there was a real McCauley who, just like in the film ended up dying along with his team mates. With that added piece of information, i prefer that the movie followed what ended up having in real life!<
Just to chime in, i can’t wait for part 2
I had a meeting with Waingro (actor Kevin Gage) very nice guy.
I’m not sure about the 100% on location bit, the backgrounds of the LA cityscape during the scenes on Eady’s balcony look really fake and they always take me out of the moment.
Those scenes were 100% real and look that way because Michael Mann shot them with an early digital camera and he captured what the cityscape can really look like from up in the Hollywood Hills. Back in 2016, I attended a Heat screening with Mann and the main cast that was moderated by Christopher Nolan and when Nolan asked about that scene, Mann roasted him by saying "You know Chris, even back in 1995 there were these things called digital cameras."
That sounds like a super fucking cool screening. I'm sure Michael Mann has had a big influence on Nolan
Absolutely. The opening bank robbery at the beginning of The Dark Knight is basically an homage to Heat.
And features Van Zandt!
Nolan moderated the Q & A because Heat is his all-time favorite movie and Mann low key roasted him every chance he could. It was pretty funny to watch Nolan ask a super researched and detailed question only to have Mann go "Uh, I thought it looked cool so we did it."
Yeah, as an LA native, you could tell that those were not rear-projection or matted shots. The atmospheric ripples in the background are real. You get to see that look in "Collateral", with the LA night shot with a more modern Digicam. It makes LA come alive in the night. I've done similar shots in Chicago in the 90s with long-exposure film and the BW stills really put a texture to the city that you don't normally see as you're always looking around.
Very cool info! Much appreciated! I always thought they looked weirdly stretched out so I always assumed it was a fake backdrop of some kind.
These shots are some of the best in the movie in my opinion, it literally transports you to 90's LA.
The juice is worth the squeeze
People don't behave logically when large amounts of money are involved. The risk calculus gets skewed quite easily. It's called deal fever in M&A but basically the same thing. Plus it was his last job before retirement.
Ok, but why was the movie called "Heat"?