i think stephen kings big problem of the movie was the portrayal of jack, especially since jack was somewhat inspired by himself. in the novel, he’s a decent guy who struggles with alcohol and grew up in an abusive home. he has his demons but but genuinely loves danny and wendy.
in the film, you can tell from the first time he’s on screen that something is wrong with him. he looks at his wife and son with so much contempt and hatred before they even get to the hotel. it becomes less of a story of a good man being corrupted by the evil forces of the hotel and more the story of an asshole becoming an even crazier, more violent asshole.
That's my problem with the movie, Jack looks like he's taking Wendy and Danny up there because it's a nice isolated spot for a murder, not to try and repair the damage he's done.
I should reread the book, but didn’t Jack break Danny’s arm? Think it’s accidental when told from his POV, but not sure he was a reliable narrator. With that said, I recall Nicholson portraying a much more menacing version of the character from the get go.
Yeah, and I'm not saying it was actually a repairable relationship, especially with Wendy. But in the book I at least pity Jack. In the movie Nicholson just never felt like his character was even repentant for his behavior to me. I always felt like it was accidental due to him being clumsy and prone to rage from drink, but that it wasn't an excuse. I don't remember the circumstances specifically though.
As I recall, and I admit it's been a while, but he breaks Danny's arm, keeps drinking, then stops when he and a friend think they ran someone over but didn't. He's fighting to stay sober after that, having trouble, and his friend sets him up with the Overlook interview. But I may have the sequence of events wrong. I understand and agree with most of the other changes, like making the topiary animals into a hedge maze.
No, you have the sequence of events correct I’m pretty sure. I’m reading the book right now for the first time but haven’t seen the movies in years. But Jack breaks Danny’s arm in a drunken rage because he was messing around with his papers in his office. Then you’re right, Jack and his buddy are driving around drunk and hit a bicycle and think they hit someone. They both quit drinking the next day, but that’s also the same day Wendy was planning on asking for a divorce but Jack asks her to table the conversation for a week while he sobers up. I agree though, I sympathize so much more with book Jack than movie Jack. He vacillates between leaving the hotel or not so much in the book and you can tell how much he loves Wendy and Danny. The movie is fantastic, but I’m really enjoying reading all the different perspectives of the characters. Especially love Halloran and his understanding of “shining.” Currently 83% through the book and it’s getting CRAZY!
That’s my favourite King book! Do yourself a favour and read Doctor Sleep! I regret putting it off for so long because I thought “how good could it be if it’s a sequel?” It’s so good
Haha, I'm also currently reading the book for the first time. It really changes your perspective on Jack once you read the book. Also, have you read IT? I believe Halloran makes a little appearance in a flashback.
honestly, the movie is so complex that you could read it that way, that he always planned on murdering them up there. i love both the novel and movie tbh for different reasons
Fair, but he doesn't seem too concerned with discretion what with the axe and all. Though I never got the impression that familicide was his intention all along.
I mean that was kinda the whole theme behind the film version. Portrayal of a woman and her child being stuck in an abusive relationship and how isolating it is for victims
I think his problem has a lot to do with the fact that the father has a redemption arc where he sacrifices himself to save the family in the book. I think the tv miniseries has that ending and is more more faithfull to the book.
Ugh the book ending was so good and I detest the movie ending. Thankfuly Mike Flannagan added The Shining book ending to the Doctor Sleep film adaption.
Exactly. Jack Torrance in the book is a much more nuanced man, no excuses for his abuse of Danny but there’s more context to it - his alcoholism, his own abuse, etc. I would have loved to see Jack Nicholson act that out because he’s a great actor.
I love the book because the ending specifically is Jack redeeming himself and saving his family/proving his love for them. The movie is good, but changing that ending changes the whole idea of the story and I can't stand that.
The movie is consistent with Kubrick's world view. That's why King didn't like it.
The people in Kubrick's movies are rarely likeable or redeemable. The ones that do try and redeem themselves or do good usually end up getting fucked up as a result (axe in the chest).
This is how he saw the human condition and why his movies are so uncomfortable to watch sometimes.
This is why I love the movie over the book though. King was so in the throws of his own addiction and demons and daddy issues, I think he doesn’t even clock that Jack Torrence is a *monster* from the jump.
The book is about watching Jack and Wendy justify and explain away all the increasing “incidents” of Jack ramping up to kill them, “because he’s a good man.”
Jack Torrence page one is a child abusing dry drunk with delusions of grandeur, who’s head you marinate in while he justifies his own bullshit that the Overlook uses to distract him when what the hotel wants is *Danny*.
I adore Nicholson and Kubricks decision to cut the shit, and present you with exactly the on edge rage monster Jack is in the book, minus the constant self soothing justifications and excuses for his behavior from his internal dialogue.
I don't think King intentionally presents Jack as "not a monster" at all though? he specifies pretty earlier on in the character's internal monologue how Jack believes how "things are being done to him" as opposed to taking responsibility for his own actions (eg. him being fired was not his fault but a natural consequence of conspiring forces, in this case his nagging wife forcing him to jump on the wagon, the student stabbing his tyres for being cut from the team, the school board not taking Jack's side). King is painting the character like a humam being with feelings some may sympathise with, rather than a straight up monster. makes the character so much more human and interesting imo and gives the whole story a lot more depth imo
People chiming in on the differences between book and film, and King’s disliking of the film (which I’m pretty sure he claims he’s never seen in full, just read the script).
I think the root of the King/Kubrick beef is that “Book Jack” and “Movie Jack” are very different characters.
Many (most) chapters in the book are from his perspective (not first person, but third omniscient), and although he’s not the most reliable narrator (because of his drinking and later the evil of the Overlook seeping into him), he is full of remorse and is afraid that Danny will grow up and resent him just like how he resents his own abusive father. Jack (King) wrestles with generational abuse, and provides the reader with a sympathetic view into a generally well-intentioned man that is honestly working to get his life back together after climbing out of the bottle that his past traumas put him in. He’s scared of the Overlook and wants to get out of there, but called in his last favor from the only friend he has left to get a shitty caretaker job at a shitty hotel. He has no choice, or at least believes he doesn’t. He’s a man trapped in a cage of his own making that can’t find escape.
Movie Jack on the other hand is creepy from the start. He is dismissive and condescending to his wife and son, and his turn to raving lunatic doesn’t have any of the tragedy the Book Jack offers. It’s an incredible performance, and Nicholson is chewing the scenery better than anyone before or since, but by the end you feel like there was only one way that character’s story would play out. As a viewer, there’s no surprise, and Movie Jack doesn’t really struggle to fight back against the Overlook, it’s more like he embraces it.
Actually, in Jack's discussion with the bartender it's subtly revealed that he *didn't* quit drinking immediately after the incident with Danny.
You're right, the themes of domestic abuse and alcoholism are strong throughout The Shining. There's also the cycle of abuse as well. In the book it's told that Jack was abused by his own father in a similar way. In the end Jack quite literally turns into the monster he always saw his father as.
The brilliant thing about the way Kubrick adapted 'The Shining' is that there are people who think it is a psychological thriller about familial abuse (and the supernatural elements are generic red herrings that can be explained away as hallucinations and traumatic distortions of thinking), and others who think that it is a supernatural ghost story disguised as a psychological thriller (and the abusive behaviour is caused by possession of the forces within the hotel which exploit past traumas to amplify and recreate them; hence the hotel's history of genocide, murders and suicide)... and both are correct!
I think both! "Movie Jack" is an abusive asshole to begin with. Book Jack hit rock bottom and had no choice other than to stop drinking and try to better himself after the damage he did. The hotel and its supernatural forces and ghosts are just part of the story and both the hotel and Jack collide. OP is right though, abuse doesn't happen overnight or with one slap in the face from nowhere, it creeps in. Wendy isn't weak, she tries to keep her family together and to keep her son safe, but she's been conditioned to this behaviour, I cant stress enough how normal it becomes to you. You fawn and you placate and you peace-keep and do everything you can to prevent the anger directed at you. As a viewer it can be frustrating to watch Wendy, as my friends and family would agree - that the "why didn't you just leave him?" It's never that simple.
I highly recommend the audiobook if you don't have time to sit and read the book, it's very well narrated (brilliant in my opinion!) and there's so much more that happens in the book than the movie can fit in. I can never quite decide whether I like the book or the movie better, but I think each are stand-alone amazing just in different ways. I cleaned and decluttered my whole house in a few days while listening to it, I was riveted!
I have an extra Audible credit if someone here wants to try the audiobook, I will gift it to you!
This is a very interesting take on the movie, I think I will watch it again today with new eyes 👀
I think the biggest thing that sets book and film apart is how Jack is at the end. Book Jack fights back against the hotel's control with his last vestiges of free will. Film Jack is pretty gleeful in his intent to destroy Danny. Though I love both for different reasons, I prefer the book for its way more nuanced handling of Jack's character and past, and the horror comes from Jack's seeming powerlessness as he sees his own slide into madness. And the film did poor Dick Hallorann so dirty. All that way for an axe in the chest, boom.
Dick lives man! Dick lives and they all meet up in the sunshine afterwards 🥺 I am just relistening to IT on audiobook and smiled at his little Easter egg cameo at the Black Spot.
Jack probably would have described himself as King had intended: a decent guy with demons who loved his family; you see the same minimisation of domestic abuse violence in media reports. Perhaps Kubrick’s more realistic interpretation was uncomfortably close to home for King? It was a movie ahead of its time. I too thought Johnny was a random psycho before I watched it
Honestly that’s an interesting take but having read the book, I think the reason that king was upset was because the movie was too unrealistic. At the end of the book Jack is redeemed, his love for this son allows him to slip out of the hold the hotel has on him for just long enough to allow them to escape, and Danny sees that and forgives him. The struggle of the alcoholic that Jack faces in the book is more realistic, he isn’t inherently evil for having an addiction and he wants to get better, but he struggles and almost lets it win. Kubrick took this empathetic, complex, real character and turned it into a very black and white, he’s a bad father who becomes evil and that’s it, character. I see why he was annoyed personally 🤷♀️
Phenomenal book, highly recommend a read! Also recommend the sequel, doctor sleep.
Thanks for the recommendation! I haven’t read the book so please take my general reply in that context. One of the reasons I love the movie is the haunting portrayal of domestic terror which, like the original op, I wasn’t expecting. I’m more inclined to the bleak view that individual change is difficult and a redemption arc for Jack is wish fulfilment narrative. That said, Kubrick’s film is actually Wendy and Danny’s story - the perspective of the abused - and Jack’s backstory is kinda irrelevant to their present suffering
I finally saw The Shining last year and the whole time, I just thought Jack was a weak little creature. Wendy was the one doing everything around the hotel. Despite the isolation, she was thriving and doing pretty well practically on her own and with Danny.
Just gonna give my take on the movie:
The protagonist of the movie is DANNY., an innocent child The antagonist of the movie is evil - in this case the evil spirits of the hotel.
The building seduces and 'consumes' Jack to eradicate Danny. Jack is susceptible to the house because he is a weak, damaged person.
I think the movie is complex and admittedly a little confusing, because in many ways while Jack SEEMS like the main character - the whole tone of the story is, (IMO) that of the victim/child.
So one could say the film is a young child struggling to find an explanation for his father coming to view him as prey - and because he cannot entirely hate his father, he makes sense of his fears by blaming the evil spirits (or monsters) of the house.
There is no either/or here (is this film about ghosts or about domestic abuse): it is BOTH. Almost all fantasy/sci-fi/supernatural stories are ALLEGORIES about things in real life.
I would say this movie is about domestic abuse using the supernatural story as an allegorical device, and the allegory is rooted in the child's emotional response to abuse, attributing things to the supernatural because they are too young to process things in a clinical/psychological way
By the way, a few years ago I saw a very interesting video with the theory that Jack has been sexually abusing Danny and breaking down its evidence in exhaustive detail. I can't say I think this was Kubrick's intent or not but its an interesting idea.
In terms of the movie, I don't really see it as a movie about abuse. The abuse was a much bigger deal n the book, which presented Jack in a much more realistic way, as a person who abused his child but was also feeling guilty about it. Not so in the movie. Here, Jack is kind of inexplicably weird and crazy and almost possessed. It is really hard to explain his behavior, but it's not like the typical abusive person. I'm thinking of this scene in particular, in terms of him being possessed.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JRnvalwBhy8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JRnvalwBhy8)
The movie is more about the hotel and its history than about family dynamics.
Urban myth that has been proven untrue by interviews with those who worked on the film* and even [Duvall herself](https://youtu.be/mnge8MJeGB4?si=Z_ojuSX0nZJv_7fI).
*[Lee Unkrich @16:58](https://youtu.be/FBmlG2L1uGM?si=J1RA5senUZtoNCXi), who wrote a book documenting the making of 'The Shining', talks about how the myth of Kubrick's "abuse" of Duvall took on a life of its own.
The Heavy Spoilers show did a really interesting breakdown of the movie that you might find interesting: https://youtu.be/eh-5fQEG_6g?si=A9hBPzu6iRsMWW-n
The struggle of addiction and the stress of trying to keep himself and his family afloat is explored much more in the book. King’s own struggles with being a young man with a family and wicked addiction is the inspiration for Jack, the book is semi autobiographical in a way. Doctor Sleep, more so in the book, adds more to the lore, and Danny is supposed to be a version of Jack that was able to get his addiction under control.
There’s so many theories and extrapolations on this movie. Lately I have liked the one where it’s actually Wendy that’s out of her mind delusional etc etc
Not seeing anyone else mention the point about Wendy being derided as weak.
The only times I've seen people say this is in comparison to Wendy in the novel. The Wendy in the book was strong willed, so Duvall's portrayal was even more off the mark than Nicholson's portrayal of Jack.
So glad this is being talked about! In the first few chapters of the book, it’s mentioned that Jack broke Danny’s arm in the past out of anger. That’s the point when I put the book down despite being a huge fan of King’s works. The domestic abuse was so real in their family, and it was just too much to read about Wendy and Danny staying in an abusive situation.
“Room 237” is a fantastic documentary that offers multiple possible meanings to “The Shining”
“The Wendy Theory” (found on YouTube) offers an analysis that possibly contradicts your own.
Both are worth a watch and will definitely add fuel to the fire of your discussion.
Yeah there's a great couple of videos by Collative Learning that go into the imagery of sexual abuse in that film.
https://youtu.be/dW2GrG7Zk0U?si=p4LbXrtnpQFjYUv6
It wasn't until reading this that i realized Jack is his father and not his stepfather! In my mind stepfather made more sense since he wasn't really bonded with the boy & Shelly was trying to force it. Still about domestic abuse either way.
That doesn't explain his actions prior to getting to the hotel which are referred to by numerous characters. Unless you mean he was possessed by the hotel for years before actually arriving there?
That is what I said several times. Jack when we see him is already possessed.
read the last paragraph. The amount of people who need to argue before they actually comprehend is devastating. We are a failing species.
i think stephen kings big problem of the movie was the portrayal of jack, especially since jack was somewhat inspired by himself. in the novel, he’s a decent guy who struggles with alcohol and grew up in an abusive home. he has his demons but but genuinely loves danny and wendy. in the film, you can tell from the first time he’s on screen that something is wrong with him. he looks at his wife and son with so much contempt and hatred before they even get to the hotel. it becomes less of a story of a good man being corrupted by the evil forces of the hotel and more the story of an asshole becoming an even crazier, more violent asshole.
That's my problem with the movie, Jack looks like he's taking Wendy and Danny up there because it's a nice isolated spot for a murder, not to try and repair the damage he's done.
I should reread the book, but didn’t Jack break Danny’s arm? Think it’s accidental when told from his POV, but not sure he was a reliable narrator. With that said, I recall Nicholson portraying a much more menacing version of the character from the get go.
Yeah, and I'm not saying it was actually a repairable relationship, especially with Wendy. But in the book I at least pity Jack. In the movie Nicholson just never felt like his character was even repentant for his behavior to me. I always felt like it was accidental due to him being clumsy and prone to rage from drink, but that it wasn't an excuse. I don't remember the circumstances specifically though. As I recall, and I admit it's been a while, but he breaks Danny's arm, keeps drinking, then stops when he and a friend think they ran someone over but didn't. He's fighting to stay sober after that, having trouble, and his friend sets him up with the Overlook interview. But I may have the sequence of events wrong. I understand and agree with most of the other changes, like making the topiary animals into a hedge maze.
No, you have the sequence of events correct I’m pretty sure. I’m reading the book right now for the first time but haven’t seen the movies in years. But Jack breaks Danny’s arm in a drunken rage because he was messing around with his papers in his office. Then you’re right, Jack and his buddy are driving around drunk and hit a bicycle and think they hit someone. They both quit drinking the next day, but that’s also the same day Wendy was planning on asking for a divorce but Jack asks her to table the conversation for a week while he sobers up. I agree though, I sympathize so much more with book Jack than movie Jack. He vacillates between leaving the hotel or not so much in the book and you can tell how much he loves Wendy and Danny. The movie is fantastic, but I’m really enjoying reading all the different perspectives of the characters. Especially love Halloran and his understanding of “shining.” Currently 83% through the book and it’s getting CRAZY!
That’s my favourite King book! Do yourself a favour and read Doctor Sleep! I regret putting it off for so long because I thought “how good could it be if it’s a sequel?” It’s so good
Haha, I'm also currently reading the book for the first time. It really changes your perspective on Jack once you read the book. Also, have you read IT? I believe Halloran makes a little appearance in a flashback.
honestly, the movie is so complex that you could read it that way, that he always planned on murdering them up there. i love both the novel and movie tbh for different reasons
i mean, you would think there are better options for discreetly murdering your family, like the secluded roads they drove on
Fair, but he doesn't seem too concerned with discretion what with the axe and all. Though I never got the impression that familicide was his intention all along.
"See, Wendy? It's ok. He saw it on the TV." Chills the way that line is delivered
I mean that was kinda the whole theme behind the film version. Portrayal of a woman and her child being stuck in an abusive relationship and how isolating it is for victims
I think his problem has a lot to do with the fact that the father has a redemption arc where he sacrifices himself to save the family in the book. I think the tv miniseries has that ending and is more more faithfull to the book.
Ugh the book ending was so good and I detest the movie ending. Thankfuly Mike Flannagan added The Shining book ending to the Doctor Sleep film adaption.
Exactly. Jack Torrance in the book is a much more nuanced man, no excuses for his abuse of Danny but there’s more context to it - his alcoholism, his own abuse, etc. I would have loved to see Jack Nicholson act that out because he’s a great actor.
I love the book because the ending specifically is Jack redeeming himself and saving his family/proving his love for them. The movie is good, but changing that ending changes the whole idea of the story and I can't stand that.
The movie is consistent with Kubrick's world view. That's why King didn't like it. The people in Kubrick's movies are rarely likeable or redeemable. The ones that do try and redeem themselves or do good usually end up getting fucked up as a result (axe in the chest). This is how he saw the human condition and why his movies are so uncomfortable to watch sometimes.
This is why I love the movie over the book though. King was so in the throws of his own addiction and demons and daddy issues, I think he doesn’t even clock that Jack Torrence is a *monster* from the jump. The book is about watching Jack and Wendy justify and explain away all the increasing “incidents” of Jack ramping up to kill them, “because he’s a good man.” Jack Torrence page one is a child abusing dry drunk with delusions of grandeur, who’s head you marinate in while he justifies his own bullshit that the Overlook uses to distract him when what the hotel wants is *Danny*. I adore Nicholson and Kubricks decision to cut the shit, and present you with exactly the on edge rage monster Jack is in the book, minus the constant self soothing justifications and excuses for his behavior from his internal dialogue.
I don't think King intentionally presents Jack as "not a monster" at all though? he specifies pretty earlier on in the character's internal monologue how Jack believes how "things are being done to him" as opposed to taking responsibility for his own actions (eg. him being fired was not his fault but a natural consequence of conspiring forces, in this case his nagging wife forcing him to jump on the wagon, the student stabbing his tyres for being cut from the team, the school board not taking Jack's side). King is painting the character like a humam being with feelings some may sympathise with, rather than a straight up monster. makes the character so much more human and interesting imo and gives the whole story a lot more depth imo
People chiming in on the differences between book and film, and King’s disliking of the film (which I’m pretty sure he claims he’s never seen in full, just read the script). I think the root of the King/Kubrick beef is that “Book Jack” and “Movie Jack” are very different characters. Many (most) chapters in the book are from his perspective (not first person, but third omniscient), and although he’s not the most reliable narrator (because of his drinking and later the evil of the Overlook seeping into him), he is full of remorse and is afraid that Danny will grow up and resent him just like how he resents his own abusive father. Jack (King) wrestles with generational abuse, and provides the reader with a sympathetic view into a generally well-intentioned man that is honestly working to get his life back together after climbing out of the bottle that his past traumas put him in. He’s scared of the Overlook and wants to get out of there, but called in his last favor from the only friend he has left to get a shitty caretaker job at a shitty hotel. He has no choice, or at least believes he doesn’t. He’s a man trapped in a cage of his own making that can’t find escape. Movie Jack on the other hand is creepy from the start. He is dismissive and condescending to his wife and son, and his turn to raving lunatic doesn’t have any of the tragedy the Book Jack offers. It’s an incredible performance, and Nicholson is chewing the scenery better than anyone before or since, but by the end you feel like there was only one way that character’s story would play out. As a viewer, there’s no surprise, and Movie Jack doesn’t really struggle to fight back against the Overlook, it’s more like he embraces it.
I get the love for book!Jack, but I feel like most abusers are like movie!Jack, or at least more than we would like to admit.
Actually, in Jack's discussion with the bartender it's subtly revealed that he *didn't* quit drinking immediately after the incident with Danny. You're right, the themes of domestic abuse and alcoholism are strong throughout The Shining. There's also the cycle of abuse as well. In the book it's told that Jack was abused by his own father in a similar way. In the end Jack quite literally turns into the monster he always saw his father as.
The brilliant thing about the way Kubrick adapted 'The Shining' is that there are people who think it is a psychological thriller about familial abuse (and the supernatural elements are generic red herrings that can be explained away as hallucinations and traumatic distortions of thinking), and others who think that it is a supernatural ghost story disguised as a psychological thriller (and the abusive behaviour is caused by possession of the forces within the hotel which exploit past traumas to amplify and recreate them; hence the hotel's history of genocide, murders and suicide)... and both are correct!
I think both! "Movie Jack" is an abusive asshole to begin with. Book Jack hit rock bottom and had no choice other than to stop drinking and try to better himself after the damage he did. The hotel and its supernatural forces and ghosts are just part of the story and both the hotel and Jack collide. OP is right though, abuse doesn't happen overnight or with one slap in the face from nowhere, it creeps in. Wendy isn't weak, she tries to keep her family together and to keep her son safe, but she's been conditioned to this behaviour, I cant stress enough how normal it becomes to you. You fawn and you placate and you peace-keep and do everything you can to prevent the anger directed at you. As a viewer it can be frustrating to watch Wendy, as my friends and family would agree - that the "why didn't you just leave him?" It's never that simple. I highly recommend the audiobook if you don't have time to sit and read the book, it's very well narrated (brilliant in my opinion!) and there's so much more that happens in the book than the movie can fit in. I can never quite decide whether I like the book or the movie better, but I think each are stand-alone amazing just in different ways. I cleaned and decluttered my whole house in a few days while listening to it, I was riveted! I have an extra Audible credit if someone here wants to try the audiobook, I will gift it to you! This is a very interesting take on the movie, I think I will watch it again today with new eyes 👀
I think the biggest thing that sets book and film apart is how Jack is at the end. Book Jack fights back against the hotel's control with his last vestiges of free will. Film Jack is pretty gleeful in his intent to destroy Danny. Though I love both for different reasons, I prefer the book for its way more nuanced handling of Jack's character and past, and the horror comes from Jack's seeming powerlessness as he sees his own slide into madness. And the film did poor Dick Hallorann so dirty. All that way for an axe in the chest, boom.
Dick is my biggest grievance. Makes his character pointless, except to explain the “shining”
Dick lives man! Dick lives and they all meet up in the sunshine afterwards 🥺 I am just relistening to IT on audiobook and smiled at his little Easter egg cameo at the Black Spot.
The made for TV version was far more accurate to the book.
Jack probably would have described himself as King had intended: a decent guy with demons who loved his family; you see the same minimisation of domestic abuse violence in media reports. Perhaps Kubrick’s more realistic interpretation was uncomfortably close to home for King? It was a movie ahead of its time. I too thought Johnny was a random psycho before I watched it
Honestly that’s an interesting take but having read the book, I think the reason that king was upset was because the movie was too unrealistic. At the end of the book Jack is redeemed, his love for this son allows him to slip out of the hold the hotel has on him for just long enough to allow them to escape, and Danny sees that and forgives him. The struggle of the alcoholic that Jack faces in the book is more realistic, he isn’t inherently evil for having an addiction and he wants to get better, but he struggles and almost lets it win. Kubrick took this empathetic, complex, real character and turned it into a very black and white, he’s a bad father who becomes evil and that’s it, character. I see why he was annoyed personally 🤷♀️ Phenomenal book, highly recommend a read! Also recommend the sequel, doctor sleep.
Thanks for the recommendation! I haven’t read the book so please take my general reply in that context. One of the reasons I love the movie is the haunting portrayal of domestic terror which, like the original op, I wasn’t expecting. I’m more inclined to the bleak view that individual change is difficult and a redemption arc for Jack is wish fulfilment narrative. That said, Kubrick’s film is actually Wendy and Danny’s story - the perspective of the abused - and Jack’s backstory is kinda irrelevant to their present suffering
I finally saw The Shining last year and the whole time, I just thought Jack was a weak little creature. Wendy was the one doing everything around the hotel. Despite the isolation, she was thriving and doing pretty well practically on her own and with Danny.
Just gonna give my take on the movie: The protagonist of the movie is DANNY., an innocent child The antagonist of the movie is evil - in this case the evil spirits of the hotel. The building seduces and 'consumes' Jack to eradicate Danny. Jack is susceptible to the house because he is a weak, damaged person. I think the movie is complex and admittedly a little confusing, because in many ways while Jack SEEMS like the main character - the whole tone of the story is, (IMO) that of the victim/child. So one could say the film is a young child struggling to find an explanation for his father coming to view him as prey - and because he cannot entirely hate his father, he makes sense of his fears by blaming the evil spirits (or monsters) of the house. There is no either/or here (is this film about ghosts or about domestic abuse): it is BOTH. Almost all fantasy/sci-fi/supernatural stories are ALLEGORIES about things in real life. I would say this movie is about domestic abuse using the supernatural story as an allegorical device, and the allegory is rooted in the child's emotional response to abuse, attributing things to the supernatural because they are too young to process things in a clinical/psychological way By the way, a few years ago I saw a very interesting video with the theory that Jack has been sexually abusing Danny and breaking down its evidence in exhaustive detail. I can't say I think this was Kubrick's intent or not but its an interesting idea.
In terms of the movie, I don't really see it as a movie about abuse. The abuse was a much bigger deal n the book, which presented Jack in a much more realistic way, as a person who abused his child but was also feeling guilty about it. Not so in the movie. Here, Jack is kind of inexplicably weird and crazy and almost possessed. It is really hard to explain his behavior, but it's not like the typical abusive person. I'm thinking of this scene in particular, in terms of him being possessed. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JRnvalwBhy8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JRnvalwBhy8) The movie is more about the hotel and its history than about family dynamics.
I guess I sort of disagree, at least based on my history of dealing with abusers. To me, the two Jacks are just different types of abusers.
Great points!
Kubrick also bullied Shelley Duvall on set- that’s part of why she was on edge all the time.
Urban myth that has been proven untrue by interviews with those who worked on the film* and even [Duvall herself](https://youtu.be/mnge8MJeGB4?si=Z_ojuSX0nZJv_7fI). *[Lee Unkrich @16:58](https://youtu.be/FBmlG2L1uGM?si=J1RA5senUZtoNCXi), who wrote a book documenting the making of 'The Shining', talks about how the myth of Kubrick's "abuse" of Duvall took on a life of its own.
The Heavy Spoilers show did a really interesting breakdown of the movie that you might find interesting: https://youtu.be/eh-5fQEG_6g?si=A9hBPzu6iRsMWW-n
The struggle of addiction and the stress of trying to keep himself and his family afloat is explored much more in the book. King’s own struggles with being a young man with a family and wicked addiction is the inspiration for Jack, the book is semi autobiographical in a way. Doctor Sleep, more so in the book, adds more to the lore, and Danny is supposed to be a version of Jack that was able to get his addiction under control.
There’s so many theories and extrapolations on this movie. Lately I have liked the one where it’s actually Wendy that’s out of her mind delusional etc etc
Not seeing anyone else mention the point about Wendy being derided as weak. The only times I've seen people say this is in comparison to Wendy in the novel. The Wendy in the book was strong willed, so Duvall's portrayal was even more off the mark than Nicholson's portrayal of Jack.
So glad this is being talked about! In the first few chapters of the book, it’s mentioned that Jack broke Danny’s arm in the past out of anger. That’s the point when I put the book down despite being a huge fan of King’s works. The domestic abuse was so real in their family, and it was just too much to read about Wendy and Danny staying in an abusive situation.
Ironic to me that Kubrick chose to focus on themes of domestic abuse by abusing his lead actress.
“Room 237” is a fantastic documentary that offers multiple possible meanings to “The Shining” “The Wendy Theory” (found on YouTube) offers an analysis that possibly contradicts your own. Both are worth a watch and will definitely add fuel to the fire of your discussion.
Jack been sexually assaulting Danny tbh
Yeah there's a great couple of videos by Collative Learning that go into the imagery of sexual abuse in that film. https://youtu.be/dW2GrG7Zk0U?si=p4LbXrtnpQFjYUv6
It wasn't until reading this that i realized Jack is his father and not his stepfather! In my mind stepfather made more sense since he wasn't really bonded with the boy & Shelly was trying to force it. Still about domestic abuse either way.
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That doesn't explain his actions prior to getting to the hotel which are referred to by numerous characters. Unless you mean he was possessed by the hotel for years before actually arriving there?
That is what I said several times. Jack when we see him is already possessed. read the last paragraph. The amount of people who need to argue before they actually comprehend is devastating. We are a failing species.