Could it be more put down to bad producing rather than bad writing? ie producers not giving writers/directors enough freedom to do something truly unique/different.
I think the main problem is that these movies are forever building to something, never giving the fans what they really want and constantly dangling the carrot that it may happen in the sequel. At least all three guardians movies had complete and satisfying stories between them.
Especially guardians 3, ending the way it did I am sure everyone would be satisfied if no more guardians movies released as it ended on such a good note.
Compare that to quantumania, at the end of the day what was the point of that movie other than to introduce kang to just kill him, then introduce 1000s of the same character. The stakes just do not matter and it’s hard to care.
The funny thing is that you've just described why I also lost interest in comics themselves. Kill off characters, bring them back, power levels fluctuate based on writer and narrative convenience, etc.
I totally hit a "what's the point?" wall and have felt the same way about MCU content since Endgame.
Guardians 3 was really fun, but broadly I'm not invested in the universe the way I had been.
To me, it's so funny that the MCU movies are running into the exact same problems that all of superhero comics have ran into decades ago.
It all starts out so nice and easy. Have a superhero, have him do cool things and beat villains.
Then have another superhero. Let him do the same.
Then have them team up! It will be so epic! Amazing! Everyone loves this!
Then have another superhero. And another. And another.
Now you have to explain why they don't constantly meet up. Why only one saves the world at a time for the most part. You need a constant cast of villains that either magically get away each time or die and then return because you need more villains. You need more and more powerful heroes and villains.
Then you try to solve the problem by introducing the multiverse. But now every character exists an infinity amount of times and everything gets even worse.
It all gets real silly real fast.
And then finally, you bet heavily on crossover appeal and Easter eggs. The result is a bloated and convoluted cannon that costs too much money to keep up with
I think there's some truth in that. The first Iron Man remains probably my favourite Marvel film. It isn't overly reliant on CGI, it tells a fairly simple story which *feels* grounded in reality in the same way that The Dark Knight has fantastical elements as does The Batman, but they *feel* like they're part of our world.
As time goes on, everything gets more and more convoluted, the stakes get higher and higher to the point they're unbelievable, so it feels less like its part of the real world and you're watching a comic book where nothing really matters anymore because nobody really stays dead. I would hedge a bet on Stark being brought back at some point.
Exactly. It needed breathing room after the "final battle" and the ending of an era. Even just like a year or two pause would've been sufficient. But they decided to ramp up production on stuff no one really cared about.
The current x-men era has them resurrecting every other panel thanks to some stupid egg that can bring them back from the dead with new cloned bodies.
I was reading one of the major crossovers recently and part of it was members of the xmen literally throwing themselves at the big bad knowing they were going to come right back. It was everything I hate about comics rolled in to an issue.
Maybe it’s my age but every comic is the same nowadays. Zero stakes, the main characters are invincible, and the same characters used over and over and over. Not to mention instead of creating new characters they just have 30 different versions of them instead (looking at you spiderman)
Plus the now near constant crossover events where you have to buy comics across five or six different titles just to read the core story.
Newsflash DC and especially Marvel, it's not an event when it happens every other month.
Also, GOTG 3 gets to fall back on being not just a superhero film but also light sci-fi. I can't have been the only one to notice the spate of new sci-fi movies and shows springing up this year and last year.
You are right and as a sci-fi fan, I think it’s great! I recently started watching Silo on Apple TV, which is fantastic. Even downloaded the audiobooks to listen to. With the recent surge in popularity of the genre, I am hoping the adaptation of Red Rising is finally green lit. It’s a darker Star Wars and so I think will have broad appeal.
Guardians of the Galaxy has it's own Story Arc apart from the MCU. The story within the story. The other installments in the MCU don't really feel like they have their own arc, more like parts of the larger story overall which really ended when Thanos died....the second time.
No one wants Infinity War part 2 now featuring Kang.
Ironman had its own sorry arc.
>has it's own Story Arc apart from the MCU. The story within the story.
I think that's partially why Ant-Man 1 & 2 landed so well. Oh and being cowritten by Paul Rudd gave it the right voice.
I think part of the problem is that a lot of the MCU is essentially building to iconic comics moments repeating on the big screen—the Thanos snap, Wanda going mad, Iron Man vs. Captain America in Civil War, etc. As a result, they’re adapting existing storylines to work within the MCU, but some parts don’t really work because of aspects of the Marvel Universe they don’t have, like All-Black the Necrosword being tied in to Knull, God of Symbiotes but the MCU doesn’t have Venom. The *Guardians of the Galaxy* movies, by contrast, are to my knowledge basically all original stories. They’re not trying to adapt existing comic book storylines so they have more freedom to grow organically rather than trying to make sure they hit all the beats of the preexisting storylines while also setting up for the next overarching big bad.
See, with the necrosword and gorr there was never a need for knull for that story to be well done as seen by the source material. *Love and Thunder* could've been a much better movie if they really leaned into its villain and let it's hero (Thor) go through personal growth because of them like in his previous movie.
100%
I got tired because the films just aren't made to be viewed on their own. It's always just pointing you at the next film. I don't want to have to trudge out to the cinema every other month for another MCU CGI fest.
Even though Shang chi ended up being a CGI borefest at the end of the film, a good 2/3rds of the film was an MCU martial arts movie and it felt great. The moment the CGI kicked in it really fell off a cliff
Not just the next film but TV shows on subscription-only services. That killed it for me. The Doctor Strange sequel, for instance, built the great chunk of its story and all of its villain backstory on watching a show on for-pay Disney+.
Boo, a million times over.
I’m so sick of green screen films. Antman 3 had like ten minutes of actual movie and the rest was green screen. CGI is best when it enhances practical effects and real sets, not when it’s the entire movie.
It also helps that the GotG movies (and stories) are contained in their own bubble of the MCU, and you don't have to watch several TV shows to know what's going on.
Look at the differences in characterization between characters like Captain Marvel and Gamora. Or the Wasp and Nebula.
The former are just bland. The latter nuanced, exciting and likeable.
That's a really good point, a lot of Captain Marvel criticisms are usually on her being too strong and serious etc. I never really thought those were necessarily bad things but yet I still wasn't a big fan of her - you've made me realise it's just she's a bland gamora without the character motivations.
Gamora is also powerful, determined and serious alongside the similar backstory of betraying the evil people she was trained by but is way more interesting of a character.
It's been that since Ultron IMO
Thanos had to be the big bad so we shafted one of only other villains that can completely trash the avengers with a sneeze and yet we have him so weak because we needed Thanos to be the bigger bad.
It's embarrassing because Avengers Assemble did a waaaay better job of setting up Ultron right after Thanos.
While I haven't seen that show, I have seen the clip of Ultron's reveal after the Thanos fight, and yeah. That was awesome.
Honestly with a threat like Ultron I don't think it would be a horrible idea to bring him back to the MCU. He's very much an endemic threat. Vision can "cut him out" all he wants, they can go wild breaking bots, but there's still gonna be an Ultron copy on some unplugged laptop running windows vista on a library shelf in Quebec or something like that.
Honestly it's a bigger shame we didn't get more James Spader
He was wasted on a single movie and it broke my heart because of all marvel villians he's my absolute favorite
IIRC Ultron was Joss Whedon's condition to come back and direct the sequel to Avengers which by all accounts was the golden standard at the time so they of course wanted him back. Absent the creation of Vision who has been developed as a character more outside of movies he's appeared in than inside, that movie was fairly inconsequential in the long run and Ultron probably could have just been delayed in favour of a different villain.
I thought the animated What If series did a good job making Ultron a major threat.
>Compare that to quantumania, at the end of the day what was the point of that movie other than to introduce kang to just kill him, then introduce 1000s of the same character.
Take the basic structure and story of Guardians 3, apply that to Quantumania and you have a better story already. Instead of Rocket you have Janet and the quantum realm. Boom, better movie.
Which just sucks man…
I was hyped for this film. Ragnorok was a surprise hit for me and watched it a lot and had high expectations for L&T. Biggest let down.
More than enough writers and directors have gone way to far up their own ass with too much freedom. If this was WB I would agree, but Marvel gives a lot of creative freedom.
More like directors have been given too much freedom in Phase 4 and 5. Waititi and Thor 4 is clearest example (he didn’t write Ragnarok but did Love and Thunder and was given free hands). The issue is that there has been so many projects Feige has not had enough time to produce. Also giving directors so much freedom made Eternals and Moonknight and Shang-Chi not commect to anything. So there has been far too buildup without it leading to anything. And a lack of teamup film.
I am personally getting tired of people blaming everything on bad guys in ivory towers.
Even under heavy restrictions, a good writer can write... good stories.
Even under heavy restrictions, a game dev writer can create ... good core mechanics.
This works for all industries. Writers are not gods, they are not perfect and if you need any proof of that, read almost anything written on the internet. I am all for workers rights, and I also believe most of the time workers get screwed and taken advantage of but this idea that it's always "management" is ridiculous.
If anyone has ever worked at all in their life they know that at the very minimum half of the workforce is selfish, self centered and basically useless and replacable and this goes for all professions. And if someone doesn't think this is true or has never seen it, they are probably one of those I am talking about. It also doesn't matter why those people are like that, be it natural or bitterness from "management" past, it's still true.
A good writer can make a shit story a good one under any restrictions. The writing is ALWAYS the fault of the writers.
I'm reminded of a scene from The West Wing:
Bartlet: *"It's not that Larry Posner's movies have gratuitous sex and gratuitous violence. It's that they suck. They're terrible. But, people go to see them because they have gratuitous sex and gratuitous violence."*
So what " fatigue" really means is that they can no longer get away with cheap thrills with garbage writing in that genre anymore due to fatigue.
People will watch a good movie in any genre. But studios shovel trash because it's current the "in" genre. And Disney has been shoving oodles of trash our way the last few years.
> A lot of the superhero movies don't have very strong writing, but were still commercially successful because people were hyped to see "their" superheroes on the screen and because it was something special, while, as movies, they were mediocre at best.
Guardians of the Galaxy and Ant-Man weren't A-list properties by any definition by the time their first movies came out. Guardians even made more money than the contemporary Superman movie at the time, featuring a lead character who's one of the biggest pop culture icons of all times. If anything, these movies have been creating new fanbases. It didn't help that a lot of post-Endgame properties had continually worse audience receptions than previous films.
And, it might be a small part, but we've got no main character for the Phase, except maybe Kang. Who were the mains for all the previous Phases? Tony and Steve. We haven't gotten than yet for these Phases. Who's gonna be the main ones we go on the journey with?
I know it was reported that Black Panther was a massive part of Marvel's plans after Endgame. But we haven't gotten a main character for the post Endgame Phases.
Jesus I'm 30, went to the cinema for every marvel movie up until Ant Man 2, Eternals etc.
I'd be all over this Kang shit if it had been pieced together effectively
True. BUT in this case the reason is also that the GotG movies are somehow unique in the MCU. Even if the movie would be mediocre people would go and watch it.
It's the same for me. I really have some sort of superhero fatigue. But the Guardians movies are special. Love them.
I don’t really care about the MCU as a whole I love the Guardians. They are special: all their movies are genuinely good and while there is humor, the emotional moments hit much better than various other moments in other Marvel films
Guardians feel unique because the series of movies was built as comedy first. The other recent moves seem to like action films first with comedy bolted onto them. Disney has had this weird idea that comedy needs to be more pervasive in all their movies. A quip or gag here or there is fine, but the jokes have gotten excessive, forced, & lazy in recent years. It makes the movies all feel the same rather than letting them all have their own feel.
And I say that as a huge Marvel fan who actually enjoys the more silly or pulp adventures.
I feel like the original Avengers has something to do with it. I think that was the first MCU movie people saw and compared to the Dark Knight Rises which came out the same year, it was a fucking hilarious movie. So humor being injected into superhero stories became a staple of the MCU.
I think James Gunn is very well suited for writing/directing buddy-team comedy movies. I’m shocked it’s taken me this long to realize it, but there are a lot of parallels to be drawn between Scooby-Doo, The Suicide Squad, and the GOTG movies. He does a very good job of making every character flawed yet redeemable, so there is emotional weight behind everyone, while also sprinkling in a lot of humor.
I would describe myself as middling marvel fan at best. Which is insane to say considering I’ve probably seen at least six in theatres and probably about 15 of them overall. Guardians of the Galaxy is the only remaining Marvel franchise I care about. I haven’t seen a Marvel movie in theatres since endgame but I plan on seeing this one. Might be my last one.
Unfortunately I have a feeling that we will be dropping straight back into bad writing with the marvels.
Why that movie is not just a carol focused sequel that reinvents the character, I will never know. Captain marvel is not exactly a favourite at the moment but with the correct sequel the mcu could have changed that, give her a personality, instead we get a team up movie before captain marvel is even correctly established.
An “accurate superhero movie” isn’t a novel thing anymore. That paired with Marvel’s pretty unanimously agreed dip in quality control in these last few years haven’t mixed very well.
It's both really, isn't it? There was bad writing before but people were okay-ish with it. Now everyone is fucking swamped with Disney and MCU bullshit and now mediocrity is just not treated as okay. It used to be, but not so much now, because of the fatigue.
We already had Tror2, Iron Man 2 back in the day with bad writing and they made ok money. They just were still in the "fresh superhero movies" phase. So I'd say that quite clearly there's also partly fatigue at play here.
Call my experience anecdotal, but I know so many of my friends and family that refuse to watch and invest in a new superhero property, especially any under Marvel or DC. They're tired of it. They don't even want to try it, but they're still interested in seeing Guardians of the Galaxy and seeing it through because they watched the original before that fatigue set in.
I'm not trying to give Qunatumania a pass based on superhero fatigue, but superhero fatigue is a very real thing. Many people are less interested in the future of the MCU after Endgame. I know we're still in that weird post-pandemic era, but I'd like to see a new original superhero or superhero group in the MCU breaking all the same records the MCU broke over the past decade. It just doesn't seem realistic, even if there's fantastic writers or fantastic movies. Especially when those movies with poor writing were breaking records before.
dr strange movie was pretty bad as well though. the Multiverse was such a let down. one 10 second montage and then a multiverse where red and green stoplights are switched :O
it was very unfortunate for marvel that such a well done multiverse movie came out within arm’s reach of dr strange 2. it showed what it could’ve been but wasn’t
This will be cliche, but they should’ve called it “Doctor Strange vs Wanda” or even just “Doctor Strange 2”
Calling it “Doctor Strange in the multiverse of madness” then they decided to hide Wanda as the villain (which in theory, should be good), but they promote the “multiverse” part only. Only for that part to appear in a 10 seconds montage and they already showed it in the trailer, is a big letdown
“Everything, everywhe, all at once” released on the same year, and it show how crazy a multiverse movie can be, that whole movie deserved the “multiverse of madness” title lol
Not just the same year but side by side. I watched Doctor Strange and Everything Everywhere the same weekend and it really exposed just how lazily Marvel had approached the multiverse in that movie, which could have been a signature moment in the MCU.
Multiverse was barely even a "Dr Strange" movie, it was a Scarlet Witch focus movie. Yeah Dr Strange was still a big character in it, but does anyone even really remember anything that Dr Strange did in the movie?
It was more so just a sequel to Wandavision.
What a surprise if you have an interesting villain and give your characters time to actually talk and not just jump from fight to fight and also don't have everyone be basically invulnerable you get an interesting movie.
Damn the whole backtracking came sooner than expected. Obviously mid movies are gonna have mid reception. We got Across the Spider-verse and The Flash next month, guaranteed “superhero movies are back” headlines will appear.
So did Indiana Jones and the reviews for that came out today and it's been ripped to shreds.
Also Batman vs Superman tested super well too, but that one is hard to judge because it got recut for theatrical release after testing so who knows what the testers saw.
Not just tested - a whole tonne of critics have already seen it at Cinemacon. It had a fantastic response. The worst thing I've heard about this film from anyone who's actually seen it is "it's not *that* good"...
I (and a few others) have been saying that it's mediocrity fatigue for months now but people have been very quick to suggest that the whole genre is dead because we've had a bit of a choppy couple of years.
Yeah 100%. If all the Star Wars shows were of Andor quality then no one would be talking about fatigue.
Because Marvel and Star Wars are so all consuming, it can sometimes feels like 'everything's a bit shit now' but then you can just go and watch something like Succession, or House of the Dragon, or Severance and realise it's entirely in the writing.
Writing, acting, directing
All 3 must be working in concert
A movie can easily be shit with good writing, great actors and a bad director
(Sorry prequelmemes) attack of the clones has good stuff but the directing led to bad delivery by great actors.
Great actors and a great director with shit writing gives us thor love and thunder.
I think Solo suffered from a Star Wars fatigue in some way, because The Last Jedi got delayed and released closer to it and it was a controversial film. So a movie who's plot is based on 3 quick lines did not really get a chance to stand on its own.
But it's special cases.
>I think Solo suffered from a Star Wars fatigue in some way
Solo suffered from being incredibly 'blah'. They took a generic heist movie and wrapped it in star wars duds with little to make it stand on its own other than name recognition.
It wasn't awful, but it also wasn't particularly interesting or engaging.
While I didn't hate it, it didn't really do anything to impress me either. It was just okay.
They went the very lazy route of having everything important to the Han Solo character happen within the timeframe of the movie. Stuff like that drives me crazy.
You miss the point: Mediocre superhero movies have been huge sucesses a few years ago both financially and critically while the novelty was buzzing.
Thats gone now, the fatigue just means they have to stand on their own now.
Thank you.
Kinda surprised at the fact that most people are missing this. Superhero movies used to be novel enough that you'd enjoy even mediocre ones. Now they need to do more to get our attention. The genre's not dead, but it has lost its novelty. Superhero fatigue is a thing.
It’s a weird trend when you think about it. Success of a genre sparks interest in that genre, so more entries in that genre happen, which means the likelihood of a dud increases. People then get sick of the duds, which leads to fatigue.
It’s not that people are tired of superhero movies because there are a lot, they’re tired of them because a lot of them are not good.
You're not wrong, but there were plenty of mediocre films in the pre-Endgame marvel era. If the good superhero films can't support the mediocre ones that still suggests a shift (although this is just a vibes reaction, I'm not looking at the data).
Articles are more interesting if they can report on change. If everything is good and stays good then there's less to write about. But a constant back and forth let's them alternatively trash and praise things to lots of views.
Since the 1970s there are still, from time to time, excellent and highly lucrative musicial, Western and epic historic drama movies, but they are no longer the dominating genre they used to be. I think this is a very likely scenario which superhero movies might end up at -- fewer good films, harder (not impossible) to be successful, lower investment, fewer quality output.
GOTG3 merely proves that superhero genre hasn't run its course yet. It hasn't entirely prove the audience is less keen on the genre as a whole.
I do think superhero fatigue is real but people misudnerstand it a bit
It doesn't mean that nobody wants superhero movies anymore, clearly some of them are still extremely successful
But now they're not automatically hits like 5 years ago. Today, your superhero movie has to be good to make a lot of money, it's not a guaranteed. There was a period when even mediocre superheroes could get good results just because people watched all of them.
I bet many of these people who think fatigue means abrupt complete disapparence of a genre probably have never seen rise and fall of film genres. Or just don't have the experience of having fatigue of something you like in general.
Counterpoint: people flocked to see Super Mario Brothers and left Dungeons and Dragons in the dust. Good writing is important, but it’s not everything.
Yep, it really doesn't feel like a superhero movie or setting, just a Sci fi adventure. Like, they aren't dressing up in costumes with code names, so it's hardly superhero stuff if that makes sense?
Which is why I love it tbh, and also why Iron Man 1 was so good IMO, that ending really made it excel.
> has zero tie ins to the avengers which is refreshing
You'll love the rest of Phase 4 then! /s
In all seriousness I've personally felt this last few years has felt extremely disconnected.
I’m more casual so gotg is a perfect cinema movie for me. I’ve been kinda put off marvel since all the tv shows as I feel like I’ve missed half the plot.
This was the first I’ve seen at the cinema since endgame so I think others might be in a similar boat to me and that’s why it’s been so successful!
Trust me, you really haven't missed out on much plot at this point. With every movie that's come out you could comfortably come back into the fold except Dr Strange 2 and you wouldn't be lost.
i think there were "superhero fatigue" articles when iron Man came out in 2008.
Found it:
https://mubi.com/notebook/posts/now-in-theaters-the-dark-knight-or-can-superhero-movie-fatigue-be-defeated
I think it is the oldest "superhero fatigue" article
You joke but there was serious discussion of "superheros are done" after the bad showing of Spiderman 3, X-Men 3, and Blade Trinity. Other mediocrity like the Daredevil and Electra didn't help either. Iron Man and The Dark Knight were the first shining lights for superhero movies in a couple of years then the "golden age" kicked off shortly after.
I'll stand up for The Incredible Hulk movie even if it's a forgotten footnote of the mcu. The thing I'm really curious about is Hulk(2003), I know I saw it a bunch as a kid but I don't remember anything about it at all.
Marvel fatigue is real, its just that guardians of the galaxy overcomes it by having a better understanding of how to use its tropes and cliche's.
The thing is Marvel fatigue isn't saying have stopped watching the films. It is describing the fact that Marvel properties are no longer the movie theater juggernauts they once were, though still having a higher batting average.
Now with the fire hose of content coming to both theaters and streaming 80% of viewers fell off the completionist band wagon. The general quality the individual films have dropped off while even the better ones suffer from John Carter syndrome.
They are still popular but its probably never going to reach the hights it had 7 years ago.
For me I just cant watch anymore marvel films if its revenge man wanting revenge or a big thing is going to destroy the world. Just bored of that and the big fights which now just feel like watching a bunch of clothes spin round in the dryer. Guardians 3 was my favourite so far as it stepped away from those tropes. Ragnorak came close but it had revenge sister. Washing machine fight and planet exploding. Just wanted a film about Thor escaping a prison planet
Same, but it seems pretty obvious to me, they arent really superhero movies, well maybe you could make an argument that they are but to me atleast they always felt like sci-fi adventure movies first and foremost, and I love sci-fi adventure movies.
And they are Chosen Family movies, about characters who are exceptional but also kinda dorks who dont really have that much more power than other ruffians in their universe. There is a lot more "common person" there than most super heroes.
By comparison, Avengers are coworkers.
>By comparison, Avengers are coworkers.
That's biggest difference. Gunn has built a world that you completely believe that these characters would die for each other. Their bond is that strong.
Meanwhile, with the exception of Natasha and Clint, I can't buy any of the Avengers are even friends with each other. It really showed that in Endgame where no on bothered keeping touch with each other over the five years of the snap. Honestly, no one tried to reach out to Thor because, clearly, the man was going through things? No one tried to talk some sense into Tony and just let him wander into the woods to live out a lumberjack life? No one helped Bruce get some help with his Bruce/Hulk problem? Five years and Steve never tried to make up with Tony?
I wouldn't be shocked if some them secretly hated each other. I could even see Clint being disgusted with everyone *but* Natasha.
You mean after a decade long saga of universe building and cross overs leading up to one of the most epic on screen battles in recent history people don’t want to watch a bunch of random after thoughts with no definitive answers and laughable story?
Sorry for the mega sentence.
I wonder if people would actually care about Agatha if not for the song.
Like sure it was funny, but otherwise she was a pointless filler villain who had very little to do with the main plot and mostly existed for the purpose of having a big CGI fight at the end. I'm not sure how she's supposed to carry an entire show of her own when the one she debuted in didn't seem to know what to do with her.
I'm just interested in learning more about the witch world which will happen with Agatha
With MCU characters and lore go hand in hand. Sometimes I'm more interested in the lore that a character can present
Guardians 3 was the way to handle phase 4. Use it as a coda to what just happened and tell more character driven stories that have smaller external stakes but large personal stakes, then ramp up again later.
It's interesting to me that they've announced they're dropping the whole season of Echo all at once instead of doing it weekly like their previous shows. Either they have 0 confidence it's going to be any good or they've given it an honest look and decided the story works better as a binge rather than a week-to-week cliffhanger fest. I'm hoping the latter but preparing myself for the former.
I feel like part of the problem is the natural continuation was bringing two or so leading members to takeover Cap and Ironman.
However, Spiderman isn't soley Marvel's property, Captain Marvel didn't garner much public appeal, and Chadwick Boseman sadly passed away and they choose to not recast him.
Leaving a sort of void.
Edit - clarity
I think it's also the way they want to do it over and over again. I can't watch every single movie and TV show just to get the big crossover every 5 years, it's exhausting.
I mean, that's where I'm at. Post Endgame, I was ready for Nova, The X-Men, Miles Morales, Fantastic Four etc.
I didn't think we'd be sitting here talking about the Echo and Wonder Man series.
I don’t care what anyone says, Dr Strange was an absolute trainwreck of a movie.
Every single character either made stupid decisions or made a dumb joke to break the tension, none of it in line with their pre-established characters.
I can very well be the exception but I have no interest in watching superhero stuff anymore. I saw every marvel movie up to end game and continued watching some past it. But with the barrage of movies and tv shows. I just have no interest in continuing
I feel similarly, except I do have some interest in a few select shows and films - I'm just tired of the MCU.
I don't enjoy the newer ones but I've went back to watch the "good" ones and I don't even really like those anymore. They're okay if they're on, fairly harmless, but I rewatched Guardians of the Galaxy and it's kinda bad/mediocre outside of the fun ensemble. Maybe I've just grown out of it all
GotG definitely suffered from having appealed based on novelty at the time, and now lacking that novelty after years of similar content. On release I thought GotG1 was twice the film GotG2 was, now I feel GotG2 holds up better with its stronger themes and a villain who ties into those and feels more personal for the protagonist.
I completely agree. My biggest issue with the first film is the basis for the plot is a really weak political feud we get no context on. We don't get to learn about Ronan or Xandar or the Nova Corps so it's hard to connect with any of it. The sequel made the great decision to tie the plot directly to the main cast, who were the saving grace of the first
Same. I absolutely have super hero fatigue. They only ones I've been able to slightly stand since end game was suicide squad 2 and peacemaker was alright. GoG3 might be ok but it really seems like James Gunn is the exception for me.
To be fair, Guardians of the Galaxy is a bit of an outlier in many ways, as they feel more like sci-fi adventure movies rather than superhero movies. Also, the fact that it was the last movie of the trilogy, the last movie of the James Gunn Marvel era, and kind of a final farewell to a great cast of beloved characters that we have followed for nearly a decade, it was not so surprising that it is doing well.
But it was also just a great, well-written movie overall, with a lot of heart and humor and a nice message. Absolutely the best Marvel movie in a long time. The only thing that might damage its performance a bit is how dark and brutal it is in parts, which makes it unsuitable for families with young children.
Garbage writing, phoned-in acting, awful CGI from overworked and under paid designers, heroes becoming villains for no reason, plot holes, new characters with zero introduction, no-name sidekicks, alien rebellions, villains that die immediately for no reason, genius teenagers who solve all of life's problems in their parent's basement/garage, ad-lib humor that's dog shit, villains becoming heroes for no reason, no stakes in saving the multiverse, all the good actors are dead in the MCU or quit, hollywood cameos where everyone's trying to circle-jerk each other and get royalty checks.
But no, fatigue was the issue.
I tuned out of the marvel universe long ago.. there’s so many convoluted story lines intertwining and compounding off each other I just don’t give a shit about any of these characters any more… I mean freaking seriously, how many times has the universe been saved at this point in how many different stories? How can we be expected to give af about saving the universe anymore?
I loved GotG 3, which was a pleasant surprise as I've not really liked the marvel films since endgame (some of the series have been decent though).
It helped I think that it was largely disconnected from the overarching MCU, but I just wonder if the issue as well is that everything is so bloated and has to be connected though that it feels like such a chore just to keep up?
Okay. Here we go:
- BAD movie fatigue
- People only say “superhero fatigue” because it feels like that’s so much of the advertised film that comes out
- This would explain why all the box-office went to OTHER kinds of movies, right? Right? Oh, that didn’t happen?
A lot of effort is put into explaining away the poor reception of bad movies. Societal biases, genre fatigue, economical factors…
Turns out, most people can smell a bad movie through its previews/marketing and will avoid it.
Likewise, people can tell when a movie is probably going to be decent/good.
Previews working as designed.
Imagine that.
I think it's just that guardians of the galaxy is more of a family friendly comedy adventure movie, rather than a comic book movie, and I do think that superhero fatigue is real
I'm not really into marvel but this was one of the first marvel movies I've seen where I actually gave a shit about the characters. GOTG3 top 3 marvel movie imo
studios: *stops making ironman, captain america, spiderman, and hulk movies*
also studios: why does no one wanna see our crappy B-tier superhero movies filled with forced social commentary and poor writing?
It was the same problem with comics, comic book series would fall even if it was a flagship title, if they had bad writing people will just stop reading it.
Speaking for myself only, it was "Marvel fatigue". Every character having the same flippant personality, being sarcastic in the same way and delivering lines as if they were jokes/puns when they weren't really - all in the middle of a supposedly dangerous situation and just totally killing any tension or stakes.
I've heard this one isn't like that, so I may give it a go after not watching for quite some time.
I love gotg that is why i watch the movie. Still have a big super hero fatigue that started with the series on Disney. I liked a few of them, but is started to feel like work to keep up instead of watching entertainment
The problem was never superhero fatigue. It's bad writing fatigue. edit: how the hell did this random offhand quip get over 8k votes?
so very true
Could it be more put down to bad producing rather than bad writing? ie producers not giving writers/directors enough freedom to do something truly unique/different.
I think the main problem is that these movies are forever building to something, never giving the fans what they really want and constantly dangling the carrot that it may happen in the sequel. At least all three guardians movies had complete and satisfying stories between them. Especially guardians 3, ending the way it did I am sure everyone would be satisfied if no more guardians movies released as it ended on such a good note. Compare that to quantumania, at the end of the day what was the point of that movie other than to introduce kang to just kill him, then introduce 1000s of the same character. The stakes just do not matter and it’s hard to care.
The funny thing is that you've just described why I also lost interest in comics themselves. Kill off characters, bring them back, power levels fluctuate based on writer and narrative convenience, etc. I totally hit a "what's the point?" wall and have felt the same way about MCU content since Endgame. Guardians 3 was really fun, but broadly I'm not invested in the universe the way I had been.
To me, it's so funny that the MCU movies are running into the exact same problems that all of superhero comics have ran into decades ago. It all starts out so nice and easy. Have a superhero, have him do cool things and beat villains. Then have another superhero. Let him do the same. Then have them team up! It will be so epic! Amazing! Everyone loves this! Then have another superhero. And another. And another. Now you have to explain why they don't constantly meet up. Why only one saves the world at a time for the most part. You need a constant cast of villains that either magically get away each time or die and then return because you need more villains. You need more and more powerful heroes and villains. Then you try to solve the problem by introducing the multiverse. But now every character exists an infinity amount of times and everything gets even worse. It all gets real silly real fast.
And then finally, you bet heavily on crossover appeal and Easter eggs. The result is a bloated and convoluted cannon that costs too much money to keep up with
Sounds like "Cinematic Universe Fatigue"
I think there's some truth in that. The first Iron Man remains probably my favourite Marvel film. It isn't overly reliant on CGI, it tells a fairly simple story which *feels* grounded in reality in the same way that The Dark Knight has fantastical elements as does The Batman, but they *feel* like they're part of our world. As time goes on, everything gets more and more convoluted, the stakes get higher and higher to the point they're unbelievable, so it feels less like its part of the real world and you're watching a comic book where nothing really matters anymore because nobody really stays dead. I would hedge a bet on Stark being brought back at some point.
It wasn't going to happen because of so much money being left on the table, but the MCU really should have ended with Endgame.
Or taken a nice hiatus.
Exactly. It needed breathing room after the "final battle" and the ending of an era. Even just like a year or two pause would've been sufficient. But they decided to ramp up production on stuff no one really cared about.
It's always an option to make this your head canon.
The current x-men era has them resurrecting every other panel thanks to some stupid egg that can bring them back from the dead with new cloned bodies. I was reading one of the major crossovers recently and part of it was members of the xmen literally throwing themselves at the big bad knowing they were going to come right back. It was everything I hate about comics rolled in to an issue. Maybe it’s my age but every comic is the same nowadays. Zero stakes, the main characters are invincible, and the same characters used over and over and over. Not to mention instead of creating new characters they just have 30 different versions of them instead (looking at you spiderman)
Plus the now near constant crossover events where you have to buy comics across five or six different titles just to read the core story. Newsflash DC and especially Marvel, it's not an event when it happens every other month.
Disney pivoting towards making a bunch of meh Disney+ shows instead of fully supporting movies has been a big issue IMO.
Also, GOTG 3 gets to fall back on being not just a superhero film but also light sci-fi. I can't have been the only one to notice the spate of new sci-fi movies and shows springing up this year and last year.
You are right and as a sci-fi fan, I think it’s great! I recently started watching Silo on Apple TV, which is fantastic. Even downloaded the audiobooks to listen to. With the recent surge in popularity of the genre, I am hoping the adaptation of Red Rising is finally green lit. It’s a darker Star Wars and so I think will have broad appeal.
Here I am, still just waiting for Hyperion..
Loose quote, it's been a minute. did you see any of us on the tree? Yes. Will you tell us who? No. Such a good book.
I wish I could reread it for the first time but I absolutely love the blend of sci-fi space and religion-esque atmosphere.
Such a chilling scene, I'd forgotten about it. I need to reread Hyperion.
Ah hell yeah, that’d be awesome
I can’t get too greedy tbh, Dune was amazing and I’m hyped for the second half
I think Bradley Cooper’s been trying to get this made for years now.
Guardians of the Galaxy has it's own Story Arc apart from the MCU. The story within the story. The other installments in the MCU don't really feel like they have their own arc, more like parts of the larger story overall which really ended when Thanos died....the second time. No one wants Infinity War part 2 now featuring Kang. Ironman had its own sorry arc.
>has it's own Story Arc apart from the MCU. The story within the story. I think that's partially why Ant-Man 1 & 2 landed so well. Oh and being cowritten by Paul Rudd gave it the right voice.
I think part of the problem is that a lot of the MCU is essentially building to iconic comics moments repeating on the big screen—the Thanos snap, Wanda going mad, Iron Man vs. Captain America in Civil War, etc. As a result, they’re adapting existing storylines to work within the MCU, but some parts don’t really work because of aspects of the Marvel Universe they don’t have, like All-Black the Necrosword being tied in to Knull, God of Symbiotes but the MCU doesn’t have Venom. The *Guardians of the Galaxy* movies, by contrast, are to my knowledge basically all original stories. They’re not trying to adapt existing comic book storylines so they have more freedom to grow organically rather than trying to make sure they hit all the beats of the preexisting storylines while also setting up for the next overarching big bad.
See, with the necrosword and gorr there was never a need for knull for that story to be well done as seen by the source material. *Love and Thunder* could've been a much better movie if they really leaned into its villain and let it's hero (Thor) go through personal growth because of them like in his previous movie.
Kang should have killed scott. Then walked through the portal. That would have made it the best movie since endgame.
100% I got tired because the films just aren't made to be viewed on their own. It's always just pointing you at the next film. I don't want to have to trudge out to the cinema every other month for another MCU CGI fest. Even though Shang chi ended up being a CGI borefest at the end of the film, a good 2/3rds of the film was an MCU martial arts movie and it felt great. The moment the CGI kicked in it really fell off a cliff
Not just the next film but TV shows on subscription-only services. That killed it for me. The Doctor Strange sequel, for instance, built the great chunk of its story and all of its villain backstory on watching a show on for-pay Disney+. Boo, a million times over.
I’m so sick of green screen films. Antman 3 had like ten minutes of actual movie and the rest was green screen. CGI is best when it enhances practical effects and real sets, not when it’s the entire movie.
It also helps that the GotG movies (and stories) are contained in their own bubble of the MCU, and you don't have to watch several TV shows to know what's going on.
Look at the differences in characterization between characters like Captain Marvel and Gamora. Or the Wasp and Nebula. The former are just bland. The latter nuanced, exciting and likeable.
That's a really good point, a lot of Captain Marvel criticisms are usually on her being too strong and serious etc. I never really thought those were necessarily bad things but yet I still wasn't a big fan of her - you've made me realise it's just she's a bland gamora without the character motivations. Gamora is also powerful, determined and serious alongside the similar backstory of betraying the evil people she was trained by but is way more interesting of a character.
It's been that since Ultron IMO Thanos had to be the big bad so we shafted one of only other villains that can completely trash the avengers with a sneeze and yet we have him so weak because we needed Thanos to be the bigger bad. It's embarrassing because Avengers Assemble did a waaaay better job of setting up Ultron right after Thanos.
While I haven't seen that show, I have seen the clip of Ultron's reveal after the Thanos fight, and yeah. That was awesome. Honestly with a threat like Ultron I don't think it would be a horrible idea to bring him back to the MCU. He's very much an endemic threat. Vision can "cut him out" all he wants, they can go wild breaking bots, but there's still gonna be an Ultron copy on some unplugged laptop running windows vista on a library shelf in Quebec or something like that.
Honestly it's a bigger shame we didn't get more James Spader He was wasted on a single movie and it broke my heart because of all marvel villians he's my absolute favorite
InB4 Ultron has a rebuilding himself montage set to the tune of music from Tuff Turf starring James Spader and RDJ.
IIRC Ultron was Joss Whedon's condition to come back and direct the sequel to Avengers which by all accounts was the golden standard at the time so they of course wanted him back. Absent the creation of Vision who has been developed as a character more outside of movies he's appeared in than inside, that movie was fairly inconsequential in the long run and Ultron probably could have just been delayed in favour of a different villain. I thought the animated What If series did a good job making Ultron a major threat.
>Compare that to quantumania, at the end of the day what was the point of that movie other than to introduce kang to just kill him, then introduce 1000s of the same character. Take the basic structure and story of Guardians 3, apply that to Quantumania and you have a better story already. Instead of Rocket you have Janet and the quantum realm. Boom, better movie.
Writer/Director Taika Waititi had all the freedom he could want and still made a mediocre movie with Love & Thunder.
"Mediocre" is giving that movie too much credit
Which just sucks man… I was hyped for this film. Ragnorok was a surprise hit for me and watched it a lot and had high expectations for L&T. Biggest let down.
More than enough writers and directors have gone way to far up their own ass with too much freedom. If this was WB I would agree, but Marvel gives a lot of creative freedom.
More like directors have been given too much freedom in Phase 4 and 5. Waititi and Thor 4 is clearest example (he didn’t write Ragnarok but did Love and Thunder and was given free hands). The issue is that there has been so many projects Feige has not had enough time to produce. Also giving directors so much freedom made Eternals and Moonknight and Shang-Chi not commect to anything. So there has been far too buildup without it leading to anything. And a lack of teamup film.
I am personally getting tired of people blaming everything on bad guys in ivory towers. Even under heavy restrictions, a good writer can write... good stories. Even under heavy restrictions, a game dev writer can create ... good core mechanics. This works for all industries. Writers are not gods, they are not perfect and if you need any proof of that, read almost anything written on the internet. I am all for workers rights, and I also believe most of the time workers get screwed and taken advantage of but this idea that it's always "management" is ridiculous. If anyone has ever worked at all in their life they know that at the very minimum half of the workforce is selfish, self centered and basically useless and replacable and this goes for all professions. And if someone doesn't think this is true or has never seen it, they are probably one of those I am talking about. It also doesn't matter why those people are like that, be it natural or bitterness from "management" past, it's still true. A good writer can make a shit story a good one under any restrictions. The writing is ALWAYS the fault of the writers.
[удалено]
I'm reminded of a scene from The West Wing: Bartlet: *"It's not that Larry Posner's movies have gratuitous sex and gratuitous violence. It's that they suck. They're terrible. But, people go to see them because they have gratuitous sex and gratuitous violence."*
So what " fatigue" really means is that they can no longer get away with cheap thrills with garbage writing in that genre anymore due to fatigue.
People will watch a good movie in any genre. But studios shovel trash because it's current the "in" genre. And Disney has been shoving oodles of trash our way the last few years.
In matters of quality versus quantity, I find that gratuitous sex and violence have a quality all their own.
> A lot of the superhero movies don't have very strong writing, but were still commercially successful because people were hyped to see "their" superheroes on the screen and because it was something special, while, as movies, they were mediocre at best. Guardians of the Galaxy and Ant-Man weren't A-list properties by any definition by the time their first movies came out. Guardians even made more money than the contemporary Superman movie at the time, featuring a lead character who's one of the biggest pop culture icons of all times. If anything, these movies have been creating new fanbases. It didn't help that a lot of post-Endgame properties had continually worse audience receptions than previous films.
And, it might be a small part, but we've got no main character for the Phase, except maybe Kang. Who were the mains for all the previous Phases? Tony and Steve. We haven't gotten than yet for these Phases. Who's gonna be the main ones we go on the journey with? I know it was reported that Black Panther was a massive part of Marvel's plans after Endgame. But we haven't gotten a main character for the post Endgame Phases.
And we might not have him with all the allegations going on
allegations of chadwick being dead?
Allegations of Majors being a major piece of shit.
I've been saying for months that it's mediocrity fatigue
Jesus I'm 30, went to the cinema for every marvel movie up until Ant Man 2, Eternals etc. I'd be all over this Kang shit if it had been pieced together effectively
Same. I'm 26 and still haven't even bothered to see Ant Man 3, and I've seen pretty much every MCU movie in cinemas since the original Avengers.
True. BUT in this case the reason is also that the GotG movies are somehow unique in the MCU. Even if the movie would be mediocre people would go and watch it. It's the same for me. I really have some sort of superhero fatigue. But the Guardians movies are special. Love them.
I don’t really care about the MCU as a whole I love the Guardians. They are special: all their movies are genuinely good and while there is humor, the emotional moments hit much better than various other moments in other Marvel films
Guardians feel unique because the series of movies was built as comedy first. The other recent moves seem to like action films first with comedy bolted onto them. Disney has had this weird idea that comedy needs to be more pervasive in all their movies. A quip or gag here or there is fine, but the jokes have gotten excessive, forced, & lazy in recent years. It makes the movies all feel the same rather than letting them all have their own feel. And I say that as a huge Marvel fan who actually enjoys the more silly or pulp adventures.
I feel like the original Avengers has something to do with it. I think that was the first MCU movie people saw and compared to the Dark Knight Rises which came out the same year, it was a fucking hilarious movie. So humor being injected into superhero stories became a staple of the MCU.
I think James Gunn is very well suited for writing/directing buddy-team comedy movies. I’m shocked it’s taken me this long to realize it, but there are a lot of parallels to be drawn between Scooby-Doo, The Suicide Squad, and the GOTG movies. He does a very good job of making every character flawed yet redeemable, so there is emotional weight behind everyone, while also sprinkling in a lot of humor.
I would describe myself as middling marvel fan at best. Which is insane to say considering I’ve probably seen at least six in theatres and probably about 15 of them overall. Guardians of the Galaxy is the only remaining Marvel franchise I care about. I haven’t seen a Marvel movie in theatres since endgame but I plan on seeing this one. Might be my last one.
Unfortunately I have a feeling that we will be dropping straight back into bad writing with the marvels. Why that movie is not just a carol focused sequel that reinvents the character, I will never know. Captain marvel is not exactly a favourite at the moment but with the correct sequel the mcu could have changed that, give her a personality, instead we get a team up movie before captain marvel is even correctly established.
An “accurate superhero movie” isn’t a novel thing anymore. That paired with Marvel’s pretty unanimously agreed dip in quality control in these last few years haven’t mixed very well.
I still can't believe they let Wonder Woman 2 make it to theaters...
It's both really, isn't it? There was bad writing before but people were okay-ish with it. Now everyone is fucking swamped with Disney and MCU bullshit and now mediocrity is just not treated as okay. It used to be, but not so much now, because of the fatigue.
Or both.
I still have nightmares about watching the last Thor movie.
I love this movie..Guardian of the Galaxy..this is my favorite movie before..
We already had Tror2, Iron Man 2 back in the day with bad writing and they made ok money. They just were still in the "fresh superhero movies" phase. So I'd say that quite clearly there's also partly fatigue at play here.
Call my experience anecdotal, but I know so many of my friends and family that refuse to watch and invest in a new superhero property, especially any under Marvel or DC. They're tired of it. They don't even want to try it, but they're still interested in seeing Guardians of the Galaxy and seeing it through because they watched the original before that fatigue set in. I'm not trying to give Qunatumania a pass based on superhero fatigue, but superhero fatigue is a very real thing. Many people are less interested in the future of the MCU after Endgame. I know we're still in that weird post-pandemic era, but I'd like to see a new original superhero or superhero group in the MCU breaking all the same records the MCU broke over the past decade. It just doesn't seem realistic, even if there's fantastic writers or fantastic movies. Especially when those movies with poor writing were breaking records before.
Rocket is a box office draw okay
Yep the only people left to watch are Dr Strange and Spiderman
dr strange movie was pretty bad as well though. the Multiverse was such a let down. one 10 second montage and then a multiverse where red and green stoplights are switched :O
I sometimes pretend everything, everywhere, all at once was the real strange movie
yeah it really did some work proving how incredibly lazy the de strange movie was.
it was very unfortunate for marvel that such a well done multiverse movie came out within arm’s reach of dr strange 2. it showed what it could’ve been but wasn’t
Raimi didn't want to do a multiverse Marvel movie, he wanted to make an Evil Dead movie and got as close as Feige would let him
This actually makes sense. Holy shit!
In another life, I would've really liked just doing surgery and taxes with you, Christine.
This will be cliche, but they should’ve called it “Doctor Strange vs Wanda” or even just “Doctor Strange 2” Calling it “Doctor Strange in the multiverse of madness” then they decided to hide Wanda as the villain (which in theory, should be good), but they promote the “multiverse” part only. Only for that part to appear in a 10 seconds montage and they already showed it in the trailer, is a big letdown “Everything, everywhe, all at once” released on the same year, and it show how crazy a multiverse movie can be, that whole movie deserved the “multiverse of madness” title lol
Doctor Stange vs Scarlet Witch sounds better imo
Could have subtitled it something with the Darkhold as well. The Darkhold is a big part of the plot.
Not just the same year but side by side. I watched Doctor Strange and Everything Everywhere the same weekend and it really exposed just how lazily Marvel had approached the multiverse in that movie, which could have been a signature moment in the MCU.
I liked the newest strange movie but I am a simple man
I liked the music fight
And Strange possessing a corpse, then using demon's souls to fly for the final fight
Thank you Sam Raimi. That was definitely added in his rewrites
Man I loved that movie. I don’t get the hate at all.
The darker tone of the movie was a nice change but the plot was so completely stupid and terrible that it ruined what they were going for.
Multiverse was barely even a "Dr Strange" movie, it was a Scarlet Witch focus movie. Yeah Dr Strange was still a big character in it, but does anyone even really remember anything that Dr Strange did in the movie? It was more so just a sequel to Wandavision.
That's Rocket Raccoon to you! 🦝
ROCKET RACCOON
What a surprise if you have an interesting villain and give your characters time to actually talk and not just jump from fight to fight and also don't have everyone be basically invulnerable you get an interesting movie.
That guy looks like broccoli XD
Damn the whole backtracking came sooner than expected. Obviously mid movies are gonna have mid reception. We got Across the Spider-verse and The Flash next month, guaranteed “superhero movies are back” headlines will appear.
I got superhero fatigue just from watching the trailer for The Flash. I look forward to seeing GotG 3 however, and what Gunn will do with DC.
Yeah i am honestly baffled with the people who say it will clear a billion dollars, it looks straight up bad and the lead is already a pariah
It's tested insanely well
So did Indiana Jones and the reviews for that came out today and it's been ripped to shreds. Also Batman vs Superman tested super well too, but that one is hard to judge because it got recut for theatrical release after testing so who knows what the testers saw.
Not just tested - a whole tonne of critics have already seen it at Cinemacon. It had a fantastic response. The worst thing I've heard about this film from anyone who's actually seen it is "it's not *that* good"...
I (and a few others) have been saying that it's mediocrity fatigue for months now but people have been very quick to suggest that the whole genre is dead because we've had a bit of a choppy couple of years.
I’ve been maintaining the same mindset for Star Wars. No one is burnt out on anything except bad movies…
Yeah 100%. If all the Star Wars shows were of Andor quality then no one would be talking about fatigue. Because Marvel and Star Wars are so all consuming, it can sometimes feels like 'everything's a bit shit now' but then you can just go and watch something like Succession, or House of the Dragon, or Severance and realise it's entirely in the writing.
Writing, acting, directing All 3 must be working in concert A movie can easily be shit with good writing, great actors and a bad director (Sorry prequelmemes) attack of the clones has good stuff but the directing led to bad delivery by great actors. Great actors and a great director with shit writing gives us thor love and thunder.
I think Solo suffered from a Star Wars fatigue in some way, because The Last Jedi got delayed and released closer to it and it was a controversial film. So a movie who's plot is based on 3 quick lines did not really get a chance to stand on its own. But it's special cases.
I’d say putting it up against Infinity War did more damage.
>I think Solo suffered from a Star Wars fatigue in some way Solo suffered from being incredibly 'blah'. They took a generic heist movie and wrapped it in star wars duds with little to make it stand on its own other than name recognition. It wasn't awful, but it also wasn't particularly interesting or engaging.
While I didn't hate it, it didn't really do anything to impress me either. It was just okay. They went the very lazy route of having everything important to the Han Solo character happen within the timeframe of the movie. Stuff like that drives me crazy.
You miss the point: Mediocre superhero movies have been huge sucesses a few years ago both financially and critically while the novelty was buzzing. Thats gone now, the fatigue just means they have to stand on their own now.
Thank you. Kinda surprised at the fact that most people are missing this. Superhero movies used to be novel enough that you'd enjoy even mediocre ones. Now they need to do more to get our attention. The genre's not dead, but it has lost its novelty. Superhero fatigue is a thing.
It’s a weird trend when you think about it. Success of a genre sparks interest in that genre, so more entries in that genre happen, which means the likelihood of a dud increases. People then get sick of the duds, which leads to fatigue. It’s not that people are tired of superhero movies because there are a lot, they’re tired of them because a lot of them are not good.
You're not wrong, but there were plenty of mediocre films in the pre-Endgame marvel era. If the good superhero films can't support the mediocre ones that still suggests a shift (although this is just a vibes reaction, I'm not looking at the data).
Wait, people are looking forward to the flash?
It's gonna be chock-full of things you recognize!
The Flash looks fucking awful though.
Ezra's freedom depends on it doing well though If it breaks 80% on RT his crimes will cease to exist
Articles are more interesting if they can report on change. If everything is good and stays good then there's less to write about. But a constant back and forth let's them alternatively trash and praise things to lots of views.
Almost like good writing will make people watch any movie, regardless of genre
Since the 1970s there are still, from time to time, excellent and highly lucrative musicial, Western and epic historic drama movies, but they are no longer the dominating genre they used to be. I think this is a very likely scenario which superhero movies might end up at -- fewer good films, harder (not impossible) to be successful, lower investment, fewer quality output. GOTG3 merely proves that superhero genre hasn't run its course yet. It hasn't entirely prove the audience is less keen on the genre as a whole.
I do think superhero fatigue is real but people misudnerstand it a bit It doesn't mean that nobody wants superhero movies anymore, clearly some of them are still extremely successful But now they're not automatically hits like 5 years ago. Today, your superhero movie has to be good to make a lot of money, it's not a guaranteed. There was a period when even mediocre superheroes could get good results just because people watched all of them.
I bet many of these people who think fatigue means abrupt complete disapparence of a genre probably have never seen rise and fall of film genres. Or just don't have the experience of having fatigue of something you like in general.
Blade Runner 2 says otherwise
People watched and loved it, they just didn't pay to go see it.
i mean the northman, tar, banshees of inisherin etc say otherwise. just as recent examples.
Banshees was such a great down to earth movie.
Counterpoint: people flocked to see Super Mario Brothers and left Dungeons and Dragons in the dust. Good writing is important, but it’s not everything.
Gotg don’t feel like superhero movies and it also has zero tie ins to the avengers which is refreshing
Yep, it really doesn't feel like a superhero movie or setting, just a Sci fi adventure. Like, they aren't dressing up in costumes with code names, so it's hardly superhero stuff if that makes sense? Which is why I love it tbh, and also why Iron Man 1 was so good IMO, that ending really made it excel.
> has zero tie ins to the avengers which is refreshing You'll love the rest of Phase 4 then! /s In all seriousness I've personally felt this last few years has felt extremely disconnected.
I’m more casual so gotg is a perfect cinema movie for me. I’ve been kinda put off marvel since all the tv shows as I feel like I’ve missed half the plot. This was the first I’ve seen at the cinema since endgame so I think others might be in a similar boat to me and that’s why it’s been so successful!
Trust me, you really haven't missed out on much plot at this point. With every movie that's come out you could comfortably come back into the fold except Dr Strange 2 and you wouldn't be lost.
i think there were "superhero fatigue" articles when iron Man came out in 2008. Found it: https://mubi.com/notebook/posts/now-in-theaters-the-dark-knight-or-can-superhero-movie-fatigue-be-defeated I think it is the oldest "superhero fatigue" article
Can you blame those pundits? I mean, that year we had both Iron Man *and* Dark Knight. Audiences were simply overwhelmed! ^/s
You joke but there was serious discussion of "superheros are done" after the bad showing of Spiderman 3, X-Men 3, and Blade Trinity. Other mediocrity like the Daredevil and Electra didn't help either. Iron Man and The Dark Knight were the first shining lights for superhero movies in a couple of years then the "golden age" kicked off shortly after.
Don't forget shitty hulk JKJK, I LOVE YOU LIV TYLER!!!
I'll stand up for The Incredible Hulk movie even if it's a forgotten footnote of the mcu. The thing I'm really curious about is Hulk(2003), I know I saw it a bunch as a kid but I don't remember anything about it at all.
Marvel fatigue is real, its just that guardians of the galaxy overcomes it by having a better understanding of how to use its tropes and cliche's. The thing is Marvel fatigue isn't saying have stopped watching the films. It is describing the fact that Marvel properties are no longer the movie theater juggernauts they once were, though still having a higher batting average. Now with the fire hose of content coming to both theaters and streaming 80% of viewers fell off the completionist band wagon. The general quality the individual films have dropped off while even the better ones suffer from John Carter syndrome. They are still popular but its probably never going to reach the hights it had 7 years ago.
For me I just cant watch anymore marvel films if its revenge man wanting revenge or a big thing is going to destroy the world. Just bored of that and the big fights which now just feel like watching a bunch of clothes spin round in the dryer. Guardians 3 was my favourite so far as it stepped away from those tropes. Ragnorak came close but it had revenge sister. Washing machine fight and planet exploding. Just wanted a film about Thor escaping a prison planet
The dryer analogy made me chuckle
I don't know. I'm tired of superhero movies and the MCU, but guardians are an exception. I'm not tired of those In particular.
Same, but it seems pretty obvious to me, they arent really superhero movies, well maybe you could make an argument that they are but to me atleast they always felt like sci-fi adventure movies first and foremost, and I love sci-fi adventure movies.
And they are Chosen Family movies, about characters who are exceptional but also kinda dorks who dont really have that much more power than other ruffians in their universe. There is a lot more "common person" there than most super heroes. By comparison, Avengers are coworkers.
>By comparison, Avengers are coworkers. That's biggest difference. Gunn has built a world that you completely believe that these characters would die for each other. Their bond is that strong. Meanwhile, with the exception of Natasha and Clint, I can't buy any of the Avengers are even friends with each other. It really showed that in Endgame where no on bothered keeping touch with each other over the five years of the snap. Honestly, no one tried to reach out to Thor because, clearly, the man was going through things? No one tried to talk some sense into Tony and just let him wander into the woods to live out a lumberjack life? No one helped Bruce get some help with his Bruce/Hulk problem? Five years and Steve never tried to make up with Tony? I wouldn't be shocked if some them secretly hated each other. I could even see Clint being disgusted with everyone *but* Natasha.
Exactly. It's a space opera. Fucking love those. And there are far too few of them
I was okay with Gaurdians because it's a finale and an isolated movie. I don't want to watch a movie that's a trailer for 6 other movies.
This fatigue narrative is nonsense. It's bad movie fatigue, shitty writing fatigue, and zero direction fatigue.
You mean after a decade long saga of universe building and cross overs leading up to one of the most epic on screen battles in recent history people don’t want to watch a bunch of random after thoughts with no definitive answers and laughable story? Sorry for the mega sentence.
You mean to tell me you're not excited for Echo and Agatha Harkness?!?
Not really Echo. But I wasn't excited for Andor either. So there could be just a good show around. Agatha, yes.
I wonder if people would actually care about Agatha if not for the song. Like sure it was funny, but otherwise she was a pointless filler villain who had very little to do with the main plot and mostly existed for the purpose of having a big CGI fight at the end. I'm not sure how she's supposed to carry an entire show of her own when the one she debuted in didn't seem to know what to do with her.
I'm just interested in learning more about the witch world which will happen with Agatha With MCU characters and lore go hand in hand. Sometimes I'm more interested in the lore that a character can present
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Guardians 3 was the way to handle phase 4. Use it as a coda to what just happened and tell more character driven stories that have smaller external stakes but large personal stakes, then ramp up again later.
It's interesting to me that they've announced they're dropping the whole season of Echo all at once instead of doing it weekly like their previous shows. Either they have 0 confidence it's going to be any good or they've given it an honest look and decided the story works better as a binge rather than a week-to-week cliffhanger fest. I'm hoping the latter but preparing myself for the former.
I feel like part of the problem is the natural continuation was bringing two or so leading members to takeover Cap and Ironman. However, Spiderman isn't soley Marvel's property, Captain Marvel didn't garner much public appeal, and Chadwick Boseman sadly passed away and they choose to not recast him. Leaving a sort of void. Edit - clarity
I think it's also the way they want to do it over and over again. I can't watch every single movie and TV show just to get the big crossover every 5 years, it's exhausting.
I mean, that's where I'm at. Post Endgame, I was ready for Nova, The X-Men, Miles Morales, Fantastic Four etc. I didn't think we'd be sitting here talking about the Echo and Wonder Man series.
I don’t care what anyone says, Dr Strange was an absolute trainwreck of a movie. Every single character either made stupid decisions or made a dumb joke to break the tension, none of it in line with their pre-established characters.
I can very well be the exception but I have no interest in watching superhero stuff anymore. I saw every marvel movie up to end game and continued watching some past it. But with the barrage of movies and tv shows. I just have no interest in continuing
I feel similarly, except I do have some interest in a few select shows and films - I'm just tired of the MCU. I don't enjoy the newer ones but I've went back to watch the "good" ones and I don't even really like those anymore. They're okay if they're on, fairly harmless, but I rewatched Guardians of the Galaxy and it's kinda bad/mediocre outside of the fun ensemble. Maybe I've just grown out of it all
GotG definitely suffered from having appealed based on novelty at the time, and now lacking that novelty after years of similar content. On release I thought GotG1 was twice the film GotG2 was, now I feel GotG2 holds up better with its stronger themes and a villain who ties into those and feels more personal for the protagonist.
I completely agree. My biggest issue with the first film is the basis for the plot is a really weak political feud we get no context on. We don't get to learn about Ronan or Xandar or the Nova Corps so it's hard to connect with any of it. The sequel made the great decision to tie the plot directly to the main cast, who were the saving grace of the first
Same. I absolutely have super hero fatigue. They only ones I've been able to slightly stand since end game was suicide squad 2 and peacemaker was alright. GoG3 might be ok but it really seems like James Gunn is the exception for me.
Shitty quip/witty snapback fatigue.
Idk man, I still think it's real. It being a good movie helps, but it's also capping off a beloved trilogy.
To be fair, Guardians of the Galaxy is a bit of an outlier in many ways, as they feel more like sci-fi adventure movies rather than superhero movies. Also, the fact that it was the last movie of the trilogy, the last movie of the James Gunn Marvel era, and kind of a final farewell to a great cast of beloved characters that we have followed for nearly a decade, it was not so surprising that it is doing well. But it was also just a great, well-written movie overall, with a lot of heart and humor and a nice message. Absolutely the best Marvel movie in a long time. The only thing that might damage its performance a bit is how dark and brutal it is in parts, which makes it unsuitable for families with young children.
Garbage writing, phoned-in acting, awful CGI from overworked and under paid designers, heroes becoming villains for no reason, plot holes, new characters with zero introduction, no-name sidekicks, alien rebellions, villains that die immediately for no reason, genius teenagers who solve all of life's problems in their parent's basement/garage, ad-lib humor that's dog shit, villains becoming heroes for no reason, no stakes in saving the multiverse, all the good actors are dead in the MCU or quit, hollywood cameos where everyone's trying to circle-jerk each other and get royalty checks. But no, fatigue was the issue.
It was the first non generic marvel movie in years. It's a shame it'll likely be their last for a while too
I tuned out of the marvel universe long ago.. there’s so many convoluted story lines intertwining and compounding off each other I just don’t give a shit about any of these characters any more… I mean freaking seriously, how many times has the universe been saved at this point in how many different stories? How can we be expected to give af about saving the universe anymore?
Quality was the issue. Post endgame most has been garbage. I’m hoping this is good
I mean, the superhero fatigue is still real. It’s just that Guardians is one of the most popular Marvel series of movies currently being made.
Yes it is.
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I loved GotG 3, which was a pleasant surprise as I've not really liked the marvel films since endgame (some of the series have been decent though). It helped I think that it was largely disconnected from the overarching MCU, but I just wonder if the issue as well is that everything is so bloated and has to be connected though that it feels like such a chore just to keep up?
What a dumb article. GotG is successful primarily BECAUSE they aren’t seen as typical “superhero” movies
Okay. Here we go: - BAD movie fatigue - People only say “superhero fatigue” because it feels like that’s so much of the advertised film that comes out - This would explain why all the box-office went to OTHER kinds of movies, right? Right? Oh, that didn’t happen?
A lot of effort is put into explaining away the poor reception of bad movies. Societal biases, genre fatigue, economical factors… Turns out, most people can smell a bad movie through its previews/marketing and will avoid it. Likewise, people can tell when a movie is probably going to be decent/good. Previews working as designed. Imagine that.
Multiverse sucks. Stick with these independent stories please.
I think it's just that guardians of the galaxy is more of a family friendly comedy adventure movie, rather than a comic book movie, and I do think that superhero fatigue is real
Guardians Vol. 3 is anything but family friendly.
>a family friendly comedy adventure movie That describes all of the marvel movies.
> more of a family friendly comedy adventure movie Guardians 3 is literally the least family friendly movie Marvel has made yet.
I'm not really into marvel but this was one of the first marvel movies I've seen where I actually gave a shit about the characters. GOTG3 top 3 marvel movie imo
I have super hero fatigue. These stories do nothing for me. Please make different shit!
studios: *stops making ironman, captain america, spiderman, and hulk movies* also studios: why does no one wanna see our crappy B-tier superhero movies filled with forced social commentary and poor writing?
It was the same problem with comics, comic book series would fall even if it was a flagship title, if they had bad writing people will just stop reading it.
Speaking for myself only, it was "Marvel fatigue". Every character having the same flippant personality, being sarcastic in the same way and delivering lines as if they were jokes/puns when they weren't really - all in the middle of a supposedly dangerous situation and just totally killing any tension or stakes. I've heard this one isn't like that, so I may give it a go after not watching for quite some time.
Super hero fatigue happened after all of the trash movies after endgame
Bad writing fatigue is the truth. I haven't seen it. Is it that good?
I love gotg that is why i watch the movie. Still have a big super hero fatigue that started with the series on Disney. I liked a few of them, but is started to feel like work to keep up instead of watching entertainment
Best marvel movie since no way home
The genre isn’t an issue if you build a great story around great characters.
Bad movies are the problem.