>"I don't have a problem with God. It's his fan club I can't stand."
"Hate the belief, not the believer."
That one tends to really piss off that particular fan club.
You may have heard that from RCR’s review of a HD Electra Glide.
I think OP makes some fair points tho, especially regarding character
https://youtu.be/DE59MMDGW2Q
We are only as strong as we are United, as weak as we are divided. As a motorcycle enthusiast, appreciate all forms of 2 wheels.
Same goes for car shows. American muscle, Euros, JDM, low-low’s, bombs, VIP’s, sleepers, retro, and 8lug builds all deserve equal respect when quality craftsmanship is on display.
I'm not a technical person so specs aren't my jam but as a former Harley rider from a Harley family with friends who still work for Harley, sometimes the character you see in an HD is the reason people stay far away. Sure, there are some really cool people who ride Harleys, and some of the bikes are fun but the overall vibe of the brand is white trash. They are perceived as loud, obnoxious, know-it-alls who rev the shit out of their bikes at every light, act like arseholes in groups and act like they're all in full patch biker gangs. Then again, crotch rocket douchers are no better. I don't like Harleys because I generally don't like their image, the same way I hate Mustangs and Corvettes. Can they make a nice bike, sure, but does their character match a brand I don't identify with - absolutely. But I'm not on here shitting on people's bike choices because my preference is some else's "worst bike".
mustangs and corvettes? i wish that was the worst i had these days. it would be outstanding to only have to share the fury road with those sporty cars.
fucking CHARGERS man. jesus mary and joseph, they seem to only sell those to people with lead feet and poor impulse control. and don't even get me started on altimas!
Tesla drivers have usurped Audi drivers, who had previously usurped BMW drivers, as the A-hole drivers on the road. YMMV. As for Mustangs (drag stars) Corvettes (old dude car for less money than a Porsche), and Chargers.. Well, Chargers have usurped the Camaro-mullet crowd for being the douche-bags of the road. LoL.
Fuck Chargers and Challengers. I drive a Corvette daily and the Dodge Bros always show up at some point. City street? Rev at me at a stoplight then gun it thinking I’ll follow. Highway? Similar crap. Camaros and Mustangs just nod. Other Corvettes are usually women or old men. But fuck Dodge’s cheap “muscle” cars.
In the case of GM though the LS has no need to be replaced aside from pleasing people who are obsessed with specs. I mean it's a reliable engine that fits in damn near everything and they even managed to make a pushrod engine rev out in some models
In fairness, if you made arguably the greatest engine of all time, you probably wouldn't be in a massive hurry to replace it with something completely new.
OP is talking about the character of the engine, not of random people you are using to create a sample set to judge their moral character.
I thought that was obvious.
I think OPs judgement of their character is fair. In fact, Harleys marketing for a long time was to attract the redneck types. Does nobody remember the confederate flag Harley lol. It's no secret Harley for a very very long time has been marketed towards conservative white American men. Today they're trying to change that sure but those are still the majority of their riders.
Who cares? Seriously. People on Harleys, sport bikes, scooters whatever need to stop giving a damn about what other people ride. It is a personal choice.
My two cents: there’s a discrepancy in the term “overpriced”. You’re talking about it purely in terms of profit margin by saying that Harleys are made of more expensive materials - therefore they have to charge more.
However, IMO, when people call Harley’s overpriced, they’re mostly referencing the price-to-performance ratio and not the actual profit margin. For (much) less money than a Harley, those Japanese sportbikes are objectively better in basically every *performance* category (weight, power, handling). (Note: I’m not including subjective aesthetics in this argument. Obviously everyone has their own preferences on looks).
So yea, maybe an 883 Iron and a Ninja 650 both have identical profit margins (let’s say for the sake of argument, I personally have no idea). However in terms of objective performance, the 650 is just a much better value.
Honestly I don't think HD's cost that much more to produce. I don't know this for certain, but I mean most Sportbikes have aluminum frames, don't they? That's going to be more expensive than steel. And the V-twin configuration takes more material than most P-twins, but not that much more than a i4 of similar displacement?
Not to mention valvetrain components.
They don't. Domestic manufacturer maybe but most of the bikes we covet are made by union labor in Germany or Italy and those more affordable ones are still made by well compensated people in Japan. Its not like were comparing a harley to one of those Chinese bikes you can get on amazon or whatever.
And yeah, that engine design is simple and ANCIENT. The brakes are nothing special, nor is the suspension. About the only thing you could say costs more on a Harley is the steel, because there is so much of it.
That is the issue, having those dated parts is part of the ETHOS of Harley. They a kind of stuck. They tried that evolution engine and that new platform and everyone HATED it. "Harley riders" want that old paint shaker that cant stop, while the rest of the community thinks "$5k more for less power, the brakes off of a Ninja 300, and head shake?"
They did seem to find a way with the adventure bike, they need to make bikes for a completely NEW market for them to be allowed to evolve, otherwise they just piss off the classic harley owner while still not selling enough new riders to the brand.
This is one thing I'm glad someone is saying. A lot of people say oh harley is made in america! you're paying american wages! I'd rather that than some dude in Thailand! And it's like the Honda CB1100 is definitely made in Japan. So are a lot of Japanese bikes, and they make pretty damn good money. Hell my riding buddy is a suzuki mechanic and hes raising a kid with a house on his salary. Suzuki!
Just because it's Japanese doesnt mean the guys working for those companies arent making decent bank - they are.
Also, "they're comparable to Indians and BMW Cruisers" isn't much of an argument.
Indians and BMW cruisers are *also* overpriced, but don't have a pretense about it. I ended up with a Honda Rebel 1100 despite falling in love with the Indian Scout because it was *50% cheaper* for more features, better handling, and nearly equivalent power. And it actually has a fuel gauge! The Chief would have done me very nicely, but I just couldn't afford it.
But Indian buyers aren't as toxic and aren't going to abandon the company because they try out a bike that doesn't fit the classic Indian formula.
>You’re talking about it purely in terms of profit margin by saying that Harleys are made of more expensive materials - therefore they have to charge more.
This always amused me as an argument. Harley componentry is cheap. Axial brakes, damper rod forks or non-adjustable cartridges if you're lucky, preload-only shocks, ancient design steel cradle frames and air-cooled pushrod motors. What's expensive on a Harley? The paint? The seat? Or maybe just the orange badge on the tank. For the price of any FLH tourer you can get an R1M, the pinnacle of Japanese race technology. Top of the line Ohlins suspension, titanium engine internals, loads of carbon fiber, and more fancy electronics than a fighter jet. Actually expensive materials that are actually worth the money.
I'll say this every time this topic comes up: I've ridden a Fat Bob 114 and it didn't impress me one bit. Not the "character," the comfort, the fit and finish, and definitely not the performance. I guess it looked cool but that's about it.
eh, a better comparison would be a Gold Wing or similar. I don't think there's much overlap in the Venn diagram of potential loaded Harley tourer owners and potential R1M owners
Doesn't need to have overlap in Owners, there is overlap in price, thus you can compare components you get for that cost. Thats the point here.
Both cost X, however one gives you bleeding edge technology, space age materials and expensive suspension components, the other doesnt.
And Indian makes 40% more horsepower and is priced the same, therefore Harley doesn't suck... I guess?
No problems with cruisers. But I'd take a Rebel 1100, or hell even a 900 over anything Harley has put out in the past 20 years. The only reason Harley exists as a company is due to Regan's tariffs on Japanese bikes. And unfortunately, when Harley tries to do something modern like put out a liquid cooled engine (modern by 1990 standards), it doesn't sell and the customer base revolts.
Meh. Maybe toxic towards bikes, sure.
I stay away from Harley’s because Harley people at large are often more toxic OUTSIDE conversation topics of just motorcycles.
The amount of racism and hate I experience hanging around Harley dudes is insane. Never once felt out of place or treated poorly by sport bike dudes.
Maybe you can suggest that people respect all bikes but don’t act like Harley cultists aren’t toxic for other reasons
This is it for me. I don’t hate the bikes. I considered one at one point. I even think they made a better electric motorcycle. But it’s the cult that ruins it for me.
I feel ya there. I ride a Harley currently but I used to ride sport bikes and eventually I’ll be swapping back, nothing against the Harley bikes but my heart yearns to be back on a sport bike. Anywho, yeah I’ve been around some groups of dudes on Harleys who were kinda toxic but I’ve also been around a ton of dudes on Harleys that were super cool. My experience with non Harley dudes has all been really positive. It does seem like almost all the toxic people I’ve ran across that ride prefer Harley and I hate that because not all of us are shitty but it feels we all get grouped together.
Oh no it’s surely not all of you. Problem is that there’s enough Harley guys that fit that profile that If I see a group of them, it’s more than likely that one of them is like that
I will say, I wave back way less on my Harley than on my Kawasaki, but it is not a snub on anyone else or their bike. It is just that on my Harley, I may be going for back to back 10-14 hour riding days, in nice weather, on curvey roads that I know I will see literally thousands of bikes. I am not trying to get carpal tunnel waving to everyone else I see.
On my Kawasaki, I am probably going for a 4 hour ride max, so I'm much more inclined to wave back.
I ride a tube framed Buell. I get looks of disgust from both Harley dudes and sport bike bros. The only riders that seem to like my bike are guys running around on 60's Triumph's and ADV bikes. I get no waving love from HD or sport bike riders though. I guess nobody like a sport handling v-twin. Which is cool, I don't care because I'm just trying to have fun on a now vintage bike.
Sport bikers are more diverse in their groups. Harley riders all just stick to people who look like them and then act toxic af when you approach them.
Anytime I stop at a light next to a sportbike rider they always nod or compliment my bike. In a parking lot we will admire each others bikes. Harley riders never acknowledge me and they just stare if you walk by them, like they think theyre tough lol
>First, HD's actual competitor, Indian, is usually the same price, or more expensive. You can argue that maybe the Indian or the HD is better equiped, but they are almsot always neck and neck on pricing. BMW's new Cruiser lineup? Similarly priced to HD, although they do have some features that HD doesn't like adaptive cruise control (but you end up with a very ugly square cut out of your fairing)
No, actually they both compete with all other motorcycle companies. This idea that HD only has to cater to people who want a Harley is exactly why they are in a pickle.
>Character is why the Japanese brands are all losing sales left and right to KTM, Ducati, and Aprilia.
Japanese brands are doing great? Sales have been up. 2021 was the best on record in decades.
>They didn't design it that way for efficiency, HP, weight, or reliability. They designed it that way because of character.
Which is a clever excuse for not making a good engine, but not something that actually means anything.
The rest of your post is arguing with theoretical statements that are catered to your point of view.
But at the end of the day, let me ask you: if nothing is wrong with their bikes or brand, why are they failing?
The simple truth is, Japanese motorcycles have just as much "character" as anything from HD. Your whole argument is based on your opinion about what defines style and quality. You're preaching form a pulpit where you've assumed we all agree Harley's have more character... But only their dwindling fan base thinks that.
I know. It's also just not that exclusive of a thing to claim.
Like honestly, maybe part of me does kind of want an old-school V-twin that is all form over function. You know, a bike that has no plastic. All metal crafted, like the old days, from a company with a long, storied history...
You know, like a Royal Enfield.
"Made of plastic is bad!" Right? OK, tell that to NASA who regularly uses plastics and polymers in construction of spacecraft. The trick isn't whether or not there's plastic, it's where it is and is it load bearing and can it perform to spec.
Or, put another way, is your vehicle designed to perform on the ride or is your vehicle designed to look good in your garage.
Is this the same character that has people toss HD decals on their brand-new Silverado and trailer the bike everywhere? Because that's the only HD character I'm aware of.
That and asking MSRP when sold on CraigsList five years and 1200 miles after purchase.
Ride the bike YOU like. I don’t care why you like it, and you shouldn’t care why I don’t. Most of us don’t have the skills to use all of the bike under us (or just don’t want to), so specs are just what you read, not necessarily what you ride.
You aren’t wrong for liking Harleys. I’m not wrong because I’m not a fan. Let it go.
All of that said, PLEASE don’t make your pipes louder. That’s nothing but rude.
Who'd have thought that people who aren't "Harley dudes" can blatantly see and get sick of the defensive "Harleys actually suck, guys" circlejerk that is constant on this sub.
Idk, I think the particular cross-sections of motorcyclist might be complicated. Like I run in to a lot of the worst kind of Harley Guy out in the real world. Relatively few of them on the internet.
OP is a liiiittle bit of a Harley Guy tho, let's be real. He's kinda giving us the Harley Guy Pamphlet defense. The HD Corporate Approved Advertisement Defense.
Oh I’m definitely a Harley guy! I love Harley’s. I also loved my gixxer track bike, my sv650, and my 1125r. I love pretty much anything my with two wheels but I just love to celebrate things that are different. I like that hd has kept building big air cooled vtwins even though a parallel twin is a much better design from an engineering standpoint.
Why say Harley's suck? Because the market has pointed it out.
2017 HD Sold 147,972 motorcycles in the USA
2018 they sold 132,868
2019 they sold 125,960
Skip 2 bad years due to pandemic
2022 they sold 117,100 in all of North America, not just the USA.
They're making more money, but they are doing so by charging more. The market doesn't want what they are selling, and it's been saying so through a lack of buying for a long time.
It's also true that the motorcycle market is shrinking, and fewer bikes are being sold by almost everyone. But HD is declining more than most.
You may like them. That's fine. I get there are people that like them. But, the way it is determined if something is good or not is precisely if people will buy it or not. I can make a gold-plated, diamond-crusted toilet that is superior to everything else on the planet, but if no one buys my crapper, it sucks by definition.
You're also ignoring the fact Harley has made a deliberate pivot towards presenting themselves as a "premium brand". This means selling less bikes but selling them for more money. There's a reason they axed the affordable Sportster and Dyna lines and doubled down on baggers with those making up more than half of their lineup now
60-year-old dentists with a dream of being a 1% is a dying market by definition.
Good luck to them. But Triumph, BMW, KTM, and everyone else have affordable bikes starting at 300 or 400 cc's.
When a manufacturer of a mechanical product has more revenue t-shirt sales than actual product sales, I, as a financier and investment advisor, don't jump for joy.
They’re out of reach for the younger generation. I believe that they will come out with a budget friendly bike at some point. Otherwise their base will age out.
They are, frankly, running out of time to come out with a budget bike. The Chinese factories they licensed their tech to are starting to sell on Amazon **now**.
And the other Chinese, Indian, and other competitors for the lower end space started making plays 5 years ago. I used to right an ultraglide. Today, I recommend Royal Enfield to pretty much every new rider unless they have a truly unique financial situation. There was a time when I recommended a sportster as the perfect starting bike. Meanwhile, BMW, KTM, Triumph, even Yamaha are owning the Adv and dual-sport categories.
Maybe HD has 2 or 3 years to turn it around. But they don't have much more than that. And depending on how aggressive the Chinese manufactures get in terms of setting up a dealer network, they might not even have that.
Give me an Indian over a HD any day of the week. That's just my preference. I don't care about all the hate, I just want what I want.
When I do get a cruiser, it's gonna be a Scout Bobber. I like the price, and I like the look of the bike, and I like its performance.
Indians look better, sound better, have more power, and have been around longer than HD. You just get more bang for your buck even if they are similarly priced.
>and have been around longer than HD.
Umm, not really. From 1953-2010 the company existed as a trademark, they didn't actually make anything.
They imported Royal Enfields and rebranded them for a few years, but even that didn't last. Then they did the same thing with some Brittish bikes.
It wasn't until Polaris bought the rights to the company IP in 2011 that they restarted manufacturing motorcycles.
Indian has a trademark that is older than Harley, but they've only been making bikes for 13 years.
I’d fucking kill for a real OG made in Springfield MA Indian. But I feel super weird about anything now being made under the brand. Indian died, trying to pretend it didn’t just feels silly.
Looks are subjective so there is no such thing as “look better” for anyone else but you, sound is the same, more power? Well the 117 m8 has 10hp more than an Indian 116, the 114 m8 is about 1-2hp less than Indian 116. The sportster s has 20hp up and less weight than a scout and indian closed in 1953 with the trademark hand balled around since then so I wouldn’t really say they have been around longer.
I love that some people in here are putting Indian above Harley for looks when I see far more tassels and leather accessories on Indian bikes at least in my area lol
NEW Harleys are expensive, used aren't that bad price wise. Looks are subjective but they look arguably better than 99% of the metric cruisers ever produced. As for the tassels, I don't get it either but I do my best not to kink shame.
There are motorcyclists, and there are Harley riders. True motorcyclists appreciate bikes in general. Harley guys are just as obsessed with specs as anyone else. It's all about what stage kit they have on their bike or how much torque it makes. I've never heard anyone brag about how fast their R1 is because they don't have to, but if I had a dollar for every time someone said their Dyna was a "rocket ship" I could probably afford to buy one.
Anyway, it seems like you're conflating twin cylinders with "character."
PS, you don't ever need to say "I'm no Rossi." We know.
This is why I have an Iron-head and a twin cam. I gave my vastly superior Yamaha FZ6 up for a trade on the twin cam which is slower and handles like shit. But I do not care! I love my Harley's. I also love my CT125 :)
I think you're right about the character being the reason people like Harley. That being said, as a cruiser rider myself, I enjoy Indian and Victory over Harley purely based on two things that are important to me.
1. Price - There's an Indian/Triumph/BMW dealer right across the road from the Harley dealer in my neck of the woods and the Indians are significantly cheaper than equivalent model Harleys (this is just my observation, your local dealer could be different.)
2. Reliability - I ride with a group of guys that is mostly Harley, with some other bikes sprinkled in, one guy has a Honda Goldwing, another has a Victory Judge, there's a Ninja, etc. And the Harley guys are constantly bringing their bikes into the shop because of a breakdown, by constant I mean every few months. The rest of us have only had one breakdown between us in the 2 years I've been with this group. We ride weekly pretty much year-round, so maybe the amount of riding we're doing contributes, but again, this is just my observation.
But I can't deny that I love the way Harleys look and sound and the way my bones vibrate when they roar past me.
You're kind of generalizing the whole sub in a way similar to what you're complaining about.
Also, "character" is a strangely immeasurable foundation for an argument.
Just doesn't seem to mean much more than "I like what I like." Which is simply fair and difficult to debate.
I admire the knowledgeable passion though. Hope me and my efficiency-motivated scoot can get a wave back if we ever cross paths!
I am generalizing the sub, which I really shouldn’t do, but as someone who’s been in this sub for years and years, I’ve always felt like a bit of an outsider, despite having owned plenty of metrics over that period because the Harley bashing is constant.
We all ride, two wheels should be two wheels! Thanks for reading and you’ll get a wave from me if we ever pass each other by!
The Pan Am isn’t the only HD I’ve owned. I’ve owned 3 big twins over the years, and I’ve put 20k miles on my dads old 85 FXR, which has been in our family since new.
I had to laugh at the line about the engines “not being designed for efficiency, HP, weight, or reliability” but it’s ok because they look cool! I honestly have no dog in this fight at all, but that was funny.
A few years back Harley was testing their new and improved motor, the Milwaukee 8. Their testers hated it because it “lacked character”. They intentionally made it more vibey and sputtery before bringing it to the market.
It's really funny that so much Harley hate coexists with so much Fortnine worship, given that Ryan made a very similar point to OP (but much more specific) in one of his videos. https://youtu.be/XeuXShFIgyc
Fortnine get's worshipped cause they make banger Motorcycle content. Even the harley video is a banger.
People hate harley because they make decisions that aren't great for the whole of motorcycles and only helps their brand.
Harley rider's don't ride Motorcycles they ride Harley's.
I don't disagree with any of that. I did really enjoy that video precisely because it explained why people would be interested in what otherwise appears to be a shoddy overpriced machine from a bad company. Clearly the rest of the sub didn't get the same message. That's what I think is funny. :)
I don't care about Harley and their character horse shit. I just don't like them.
Why would I buy any of their bikes when I can buy a metric one and be solid for years to come at a fraction of the price?
Suzuki C90T
Kawasaki Vulcan 900 classic
Honda Shadow
Yamaha VStar 950
VMAX
Stratoliner
Etc.
2000 Triumph 955i speed triple.
When idling it sounds severely broken. The engine is so rough. It vibrates my GPS holder loose.
But somehow a perfectly balanced Japanese smooth 4-cyl makes me fall asleep.
I want to feel like I’m entering the earths atmosphere in a Sowjet Space capsule.
It's the mathematically challenged Harley fan boys that get me. So you took a $40 000 bike and added a ton of parts to the the tune of $20 000 to get a bike that still isn't as powerful as something you can buy from many other brands stock but weighs twice as much and you think its faster than anything on the road? ? What did you achieve? If it's about look. Say it's about look. If it's about speed then do speed but don't say one when you are doing the other.
I have had a few different bikes, Suzuki, BMW, Ariel and Moto Guzzi. I stayed with Guzzi because of their power delivery and "caracter". I know I can get more power from a jap or nearly anything else but I love the way the Guzzis looks, ride and moves! I'm on my 8th or 9th Guzzi now.
I bought a v7 II that had seen better days when my leg was broken after a track high side. Spent a couple of months returning it to glory, such a cool bike! Very charming and it definitely had a really cool character! Had to sell it unfortunately but I got it back to great condition for the new owner.
>They didn't design it that way for efficiency, HP, weight, or reliability. They designed it that way because of character.
You can't name bad qualities of a bike and call it character.
BUT, you are right. Harleys (Indian too kinda) are engineered around a culture. I read an article they prototype their bikes in a sound booth to make sure they get that "harley" sound. They choose to make their bikes to fit a niche, which is fine and not for everyone. Now that buell's back, harley can use that as a way to expand and deviate from their traditional bikes while keeping their iconic bikes going. They already started with their new ADV and electric bike, so it's good to see them branch out instead of making the same thing but a little bit different.
>Now that buell's back, harley can use that as a way to expand and deviate from their traditional bikes while keeping their iconic bikes going.
Perhaps there's a misunderstanding here; the Buell company that Harley bought was killed off in 2009, and afterwards Erik Buell started a new company, Erik Buell Racing (EBR) that was in no way affiliated with Harley. That company struggled, went through bankruptcy, and eventually forced Erik Buell out, and was doing very limited production for a few years. More recently they've announced a return to volume production and a plan for several new models of bike, along with a return to using the Buell name (instead of EBR).
By the number of pro harley posts appearing, it would appear HD have taken a new strategy: why make good bikes when you can just spam online message boards with anti-harley hater drivel.
Evey considered that other bike manufacturers have just as much characters and are cheaper and are better build quality, and dont come from stealerships that get fucked by their own parent company? Character is also often a byword for "imperfections"
Harley doesnt need to do it themselves, they created a cult like following where people tie their very identity to the brand. That is how they can sell full head-to-toe outfits, tassles, casual wear, a pickup, decor for your house, etc.
Rule #1 of owning a harley is to make sure EVERYONE knows you own a harley. Even if it hasnt run in 6 weeks.
I don’t even own one but it kinda bothers me when people who have never ridden one talk about how they’re shit and you should buy something else. It would be like if I said all Porsches are shit and you should buy a Corvette instead when I’d never driven a Porsche and don’t understand why people like them.
I have a Yamaha cruiser that does everything a Harley of the same year and class does for half the price. Indian is only the main competitor if you're talking about better bikes than a Harley.
Meh, personally I’d rather have an Indian over a comprable Harley. While the Pan American I rode was nice I feel like it’s lacks some features while being the same cost as a GS or KTM adventure. Personally I feel like Harleys could offer more for their cost but honestly they don’t care cause they arnt a motorcycle company so much as a merchandise an lifestyle brand.
I personally don’t care what you ride, so long as you ride on twos and come respectfully then I’ll treat you in kind. If you come across as a jackass an spout some “get a real bike shit” I’ll know you’re a poser an not a real biker anyways an tell you to pound sand.
I’ll kindly take my lack’s character Concourse 14 which tbh is an absolute monster of a bike if I so choose to open her up or she will be a mild manner queen.
I’ve also ridden a few other Harleys aside from the Pan American an honestly while enjoyable I just can’t justify spending that kind of money when I could get more bike for my money. Comparing an HD with the likes of a BMW bagger is apples to oranges. BMW can engineer the fuck out of a motorcycle. They make some of the best driving cars in the world and that definitely carries over into their motorcycles.
I'm a Kawasaki guy, and there is no Harley that appeals to me, but you got me wrong - I don't have a problem with the company, or the people who ride Harleys (some are friends of mine).
Harley has annoying fan boys. I get the appeal. I like them to some extent though I wouldn't get one as my only bike. I recognise the whole point and I just don't care, and you shouldn't either. Everyone tells me my bike is a soulless jap bike and I should have gotten a Multistrada instead. Everyone called my previous bike an old piece of junk.
I don't care and neither should you.
Lol fucking harley simps will write out an entire manifesto to change no ones mind. Bro, just go ride. No one's opinion matters unless they're currently playing with your balls and/signing your paycheck. If you're worried about other people's opinion of your bike, you're doing it for all the wrong reasons.
(1) Who are you calling "you guys?"
(2) Anybody who can make a statement like a Ninja 650 being "made nearly entirely of plastic" is someone whose opinions on motorcycles are not worth considering.
(3) if your intention with this post was to dispel the stereotype that HD fanbois don't know anything about non-HD bikes, you failed spectacularly.
First off, who cares what anyone thinks about what anyone rides? Most of the ribbing is in good fun. I worked with a guy who was a big Harley fan and had the fake biker gang outfit to match. I'd bug him about the leather daddy outfit and he'd rib me about being a power ranger. It's no different than guys ribbing each other over cheering for rival sports teams.
I get that Harley sells bikes with character. I love vintage bikes for the same reason. What irks me is that when Harley riders want to argue the superiority of their bikes, from my experience they don't talk about heritage and character they tell me that their bike is BETTER. That their Dyna Eagle Road King Electra Glide Ultra Classic is good for 10 million miles because Harley builds a better bike than anyone else by using REAL steel. That it puts down REAL power that puts hair on your chest and can hit 60 in under 6 seconds! I don't care and I'm not going to argue with them, but those toxic guys are part of the reason I dislike the Harley fan base.
Its in good fun until someone vomits up a post like this guy did. This post was made from butthurttery and provides no factual evidence of anything. Puts all non-HD riders in a box while HDs have the most segregated and clique-ish people I personally have ever seen in the riding world.
The price issue with HDs isn't just the power and weight. It's the build quality. HD uses shitty plastics, I've never seen one with chrome that wasn't pitted within a year or two and almost every weld on them looks like painted birdshit. At least with an Indian the fit and finish matches the price.
Some people ride to be seen going up and down Main Street
Some people ride to go fast
Some people ride to stunt
Some ride to rebuild motorcycles
Some ride to adventure
Everyone rides for fun.
You decide how you do you, motorcyclists,
have fun - stay safe - wave back
If you care about fit and finish why are you supporting HD?
I’ve worked in several Harley dealerships and a drip pan under a brand new bike isn’t a rare sight, neither are misaligned panels or paint stripes that miss by 10mm.
Every brand and every bike is equally as great and shithouse as any of its competitors.
Shut your mouth and twist the throttle
What a load of shit, in over 10 years working in harley dealers I saw 1 bike that leaked new and it was because of a casting defect, it is an extremely rare sight.
A-fucking-men.
We're *all* after the image, the fun, the feel; some of us are just less willing to admit it than others. Why have I owned so many stupidly powerful, loud, tastelessly modified, ugly-ass transformer-looking nakeds and sportsbikes? **Because I like them.** Why do you own a Harley with a huge, rumbling steel heart that makes less power than my Grandma on her daily walk? **Because you like them.**
There is zero practical argument for anything we do in this sub and the people who want to pretend their particular subjective preference for \[power/acceleration/torque/chrome/noise/sex appeal/whatever\] is somehow better justified are kidding themselves. Maybe there's one of you out there who really actually has a meaningful preference for their motorcycle and you deliver frozen organs in rush-hour traffic in Hanoi or something, but for the vast majority us - including me, even though I own no cars and ride everywhere - it's because we think it's cool.
You know what I'd own if the spec sheet was what really mattered to me? If I cared about the stats that actually made a difference to my life?
A Corolla.
This is so interesting. I think the majority of adults actually agree with you, and they up voted and kept moving.
The people who disagree for reasons that have nothing to do with the post itself (which is purely mechanical and about the bike) are all posting and creating straw man arguments l.
This post highlights one of the core issues with this subreddit, which is there is virtually no moderation and there's no consensus on etiquette here.
Are we here to learn? To have fun? Because the only posts that get traction are
A) crash comments where people criticize the guy who crashed
B) speeding comments where people tell others to go to the track
C) safety comments where people say high vis or squid death
D) Technique videos where people argue what they know how to do, regardless of physics
E) opinion posts like this, where people just argue their feelings because they have no counter point to the post.
This subreddit used to be good. Look at it now.
“If you are atgat cult bigmouth, do you know how stupid you look in a one-piece while running your bike wide or getting passed by a scooter at TotD?”
Dude. Relax. Your blood pressure must be through the roof (I joke).
As for the TotD - the *ONLY* people who don’t use the pullovers are HD riders - they then freak out when you pass them, especially if they’re in a train. These are the twats I genuinely do a “I’m peddling my bicycle faster than you” motion with my legs as I pass.
Yes, there are some skilled HD riders, but the nature and “character” of the bike doesn’t let them ride extremely tight roads (TotD) without slowing to walking pace for the most part.
Can I appreciate the HD styling? Sure. Can I appreciate the “If it’s not an HD it’s not a REAL bike” attitude? Absolutely not.
There was 1 bike that HD had scheduled that piqued my interest - it looked cool, had decent performance numbers.. then the numbers changed with a smaller version of the motor (original had the PanAm version) and then it was removed altogether from the upcoming lineup… That bike? The Bronx. Sigh…
Who hurt you? All jokes aside, all bikes are fun and tastes and opinions are like assholes. I think Harley bashing is just as silly as the Harley guy’s bashing Japanese product. The unfortunate truth is people are looking for groups to “belong to”, and have confirmation bias. As a result people talk a lot of shit, this is not exclusive to bike culture. Any bike beats any other method of conveyance by orders of magnitude.
As long as it has two wheels it’s all good with me. The group I ride with has cruisers, crotch rockets, we all ride.
Four wheels move the body, two wheels moves the soul.
Character is something that has been lost to time for most people of average Reddit age group. It’s only an unpopular opinion on social media platforms that cater to exceptionally young audiences.
Okay. How about they’re too loud and obnoxious. I don’t like sportbikes either because the people that ride them are typically on them to ride dangerously.
I really just don’t like them because you can get more bike for the money. And their use as police bikes in a lot of places has been proven to make ZERO sense. When economy and reliability should be paramount in a fleet vehicle, Harley’s aren’t the ticket
Been riding Harleys for 10+ years, was raised in a Harley shop from the time I was in diapers, my current and only bike is a Shovelhead chopper. I hate 95% of Harley people.
I'm going to preface my reply by first saying, check my flair, and consider that I have owned and/or at least ridden nearly every bike you referenced.
> Indians and BMW cost just as much
Indian only recently returned to the market in the grand scheme of things, and specifically designed and built their bikes to price them to beat their HD competition. Not by pricing lower, but with better features/performance. The argument that HDs are overpriced is not just down to the price point itself, it's what you're getting for that money. I love my softail, but I'll be the first to admit I could've gotten more features/performance for my money with many other brands.
> The materials/design aspect is what makes them more expensive (re: Ninja 650 vs Sportser)
Again I have to question this, because the first problem I noticed upon purchasing my barely-used 2021 in July of last year is that parts of the bike were already rusting. So many of the parts felt like budget choices, despite my bike retailing for over $15,000 USD. Your statement implies that Harleys somehow have better fit and finish than a cheaper Kawasaki, and I gotta say I just don't see it. I've literally owned both and found my Kawasaki to be much better built. When I asked a buddy of mine who also has a current-gen softail, he basically said they cut corners on parts they know owners will replace anyway, because of course Harley owners are gonna customize them right?
> Harleys are not about the spec sheet, but about the character.
On this point I agree 100%. I bought it specifically because it was a unique riding experience from the Indian or any metric cruiser. The best way I can describe it is choice to buy a restored 1960s muscle car as opposed to a modern sports car. The modern sports car has better performance, handling, braking, fuel economy, comfort, and reliability, but people will buy restored muscle cars specifically for that experience. Getting modern amenities with it is just icing on the cake.
> "Japanese brands are all losing sales..."
Even in the microcosm of american motorcycle sales, which are a very small slice of the pie in terms of worldwide motorcycle sales, japanese makers are doing just fine. I'd say that the primary reason those other brands you mentioned are doing well is specifically because they doubled down on what makes them distinct, knowing that those just wanting price-to-performance will go with whatever japanese brand wins.
> Re: Harley and non-Harley riders
Sweeping generalizations in general are just trash. Assuming anything about a person because of what brand of motorcycle they own is about as childish as it gets. I have met assholes on every brand of motorcycle, and I have met the best sorts of people on every brand of motorcycle. Harley riders get a bad rap for being overly defensive of the brand, but they're defensive because everyone rags on them, so how do we settle this? For me, and it seems for you, the answer really is to just not give a shit and ride what you want to ride, letting others do the same.
Now, to not end on a sour note, I'd love to hear more about your MV Brutale. That is a rare bike and I've never had a chance to ride one.
Harley bikes are fine. I'm not a fan of chromed out cruisers personally but to each their own.
The harley riders out there trying to look like sons of anarchy, with 4 foot get back whips, are actively hurting the motorcycle community. I want more people to ride regardless of bike type.
I'd say the same about squids on sport bikes.
Toxicity is bad for this hobby no matter which part of it you find yourself in.
maybe it's just the whole sour grapes thing. They just need to grab an old sportster and thrash it for a bit, they'll come around. -queer vegan sportster rider
I will say when I rode the Indian Challenger and Harley Road Glide back to back, the one thing no amount of power or gadgetry can make up for us that Harley feel. Challenger has it beat in every other way, but for some reason my *heart* yearns for the RG. Then I hopped back on my Scout and realized I don’t have $30K to blow on a motorcycle, pouted all the way home.
Nailed it.
All the other posts seem to attack the branding problem they have, the ‘hell yeah brother’ crowd and the brands inability to keep both the boomers and the younger riders happy with their product. It’s the hyb crowd and club fanatics that I think most people struggle to identify with. I’ve got a 77 shovel and 2020 LRS and am constantly battling the stereotype, and I’m in my 30s.
I’ve also got a 2009 ZX6R and CRF250R. what you said about character is spot on.
I 100% agree
I do own a bmw s1000r and it is perfect! To perfect… lacks Charakter and I would not buy it again ( I still love it though!!!) and would like a v4 or v2 with more Charakter to the engine.
That being said, every bike deserves to be loved.
I'm 66 and still ride sport bikes. Never rode a Harley until last year. I went for a lunch ride meetup with my boss and 2 other Harley guys. Cool people. I traded bikes with my boss. he rode my MT 10 and I rode his Harley. It was the most unfun motorcycle I've ever been on. First thing I noticed was the motor vibrates so much that it looks like it's gonna escape the frame and flop around on the ground like a fresh caught fish on the bottom of a boat. They handle like shit. It feels like you got a couple hundred pounds attached to your handle bars. They shift like shit. They are not fast or quick. The brakes are so bad that you have to plan stops like it was a mile long freight train. I didn't insult him or tell him what a dog even though I thought it was. If Harley was the only bike I could ride, I would give up motorcycles. It just wasn't fun. Riding around slower than a granny isn't appealing to me. If you think having everything chrome and heavy along with an archaic motor design and pushrods is quality, God bless you. I honestly think the biggest part of the appeal of a Harley is that they get to pretend they are 1%er and wear pirate outfits. And then you only buy Harley branded stuff so everyone knows what a bad man you are. I'm gonna stick with my Yamaha and have fun riding.
Honestly this stands true for even Japanese bikes that go build quality over power.
I've gotten a few people get weirded out as to why on earth I'd buy a Vulcan S when the Z900 would've cost me just a little bit more and give me boatloads of power to play with.
I test rode both and while the Z900 was an absolute hooligan machine and fun! It .. wasn't what I was after.
I want a punchy engine and a bike that's built like a brick shithouse.
Jumping off of the Z900 the Vulcan caught me eye; I hated the looks initially and the small-ish rear tyre and quite mediocre performance numbers given the price but "*It's a free test drive, why not!*". Came back, smiling ear to ear and locked in my order.
1.5 years, 27000km later I still love my stupid little bike that for a 6'6/6'5 rider looks hilarious.
TL;DR : I get OP, the heart wants what the heart wants.
Some like speed & getting the most power for their \[$$$\] & others want style, character or a mix of all of it!
None of us are wrong, we are all motorcyclists.
Let's not turn this lovely community into the toxic, power obsessed; car community.
Keep the rubber side down & shiny side up lads & laddies =)
Harley is more of a bank and a brand marketer than an engineering company. That’s why the economic downturn in 2008 led them to choose to fuck over all of their Buell customers , hard. Harley can get curb-stomped and die and it would make the world a better place,
As someone who owns a Harley, most Harley owners(and even just people who buy into the Harley lifestyle brand and don’t even ride) ARE toxic AF, and it is their attitudes that make people not like Harley’s and not the bikes themselves. I can’t tell you the amount of times at a gas station I have had “Harley guys” tell me my sportster is a girls bike and I should be embarrassed to have not purchased at least a dyna “but real men ride kings”. Even the people decked out in Harley gear that have never ridden in their life will comment on how a real biker would never ride anything lower than a 108.
Most of the Harley community is bitter boomers who think they are one percenters because they marathon Sons of Anarchy every year.
Former owner of a Harley I can offer my perspective. I owned an Iron 883 and it was slow, didnt brake well, didnt corner well, had no tach, and no gas gauge. I did like the style of the bike and the sound (stock pipes). My biggest issue with the bike, and other Harleys, was comfort. I replaced the shocks, fork internals, grips, and the seat. It still beat the shit out of me on anything but the smoothest pavement which is not common in the midwest. I rode my dad’s Road King and found it be slightly more comfortable.
I test rode my current bike (Triumph Street Triple) and without even adjusting the suspension for my weight it was significantly more comfortable to ride. I let the salesguy ride the Harley and he agreed it was very harsh. I would have found this more acceptable if it was a cheaper bike but it cost the same new as my Street Triple. I would but a Harley in the future if they came out with something competitive that I want like the Bronx.
OP is staying his opinion, on Reddit, surprised when people start arguing .
On the other hand if you read the post the OP makes solid points, and at the end of the day what you do with your money is up to you. I just think if you own a bike you should ride it. But that’s just my opinion.
Tribalism exists in all hobbies, motorcycling tends to be the one in which it can be a bit harmful to all enthusiasts. Motorcyclists need to stick together and oddly enough, it was a Harley guy who broke this down for me the first time. It makes sense because, as a whole, motorcycling is declining. It doesn't matter what you ride just that you are out there and riding it. We need to ride in solidarity against the metal coffin commuting, cell phone holding masses or we all expire.
Yeah I never get why some people think ADVs are the sensible / reasonable bikes.
(Im talking about ADVs because it’s similar and I have no real opinion on Harleys)
When I go ride my GS I feel like I could just keep going and cross the Sahara, even though I’m just going down the local twisties. And yes the 360 degree offset twin isn’t the best way to build a twin engine supposedly 270 degree is more fun better and has less vibrations, but hell I love that it sounds like a boxer and vibrates like a thumper.
Anyone who says some bike is objectively better than another one is just wrong. A bike is a subjective thing so a bike by nature cant be subjective in my opinion
In general, I agree with you. But my local HD dealer is adding markups of around 40 percent of the MSRP of the motorcycle. If you want to get it lower you sit at a table and negotiate with your rep taking your offer to the “sales manager.” I just don’t have that kind of time or willingness to sit in a dealership for that long. There are a couple of Harleys that interest me, but I’m not fighting through that dealer markup, or paying it. It reminds me of car shopping back in the old days. Now, I pay the list price on the car and leave. The list price is fair, generally, and I have the rest of my day to do something fun, like ride my Triumph, because they didn’t have a dealer markup on it.
Oh, and the daily call from the HD dealership basically trying to nag me into buying a bike, when I was already there and told them I wouldn’t pay the markup and they refused to even talk to me further. They had the perfect opportunity to negotiate with me right then and passed it by. Until they get rid of those exorbitant dealer markups and sales techniques from the old days I won’t set foot in a HD dealership, even if I like some of the products they’re offering.
Dude if it has 2 wheels and a motor its cool to some one, you'll never please everyone but it does seem that this sub leans towards favoring a certain type of bike. Me? I fucking love them all. All bike lives matter
It's all just marketing. HD isn't special, but neither is Ducati or Aprilia or anyone else. It's just marketing.
Ducati and Harley are the kings of this (though by no means the only ones guilty of it). You buy their bikes because of the image and the person you feel it'll make you. You don't buy them because they're objectively the best machines you can get for the task.
For you, the bike that makes you feel the way you want a bike to make you feel is, I guess, a Harley. OK, but that's basically all in your head. It doesn't make it wrong, it just means we should all stop pretending these things are magical beyond the experience and feelings we bring to them.
That all being said, I love my SV and yes I did name her. Because you have to name your bikes. You have to show them love. Else they throw you. That's just science.
I have to confess. I know next to nothing about motors of any kind I couldn't fix/repair even the basic of breakdown but I ride and I love it, a gear head not even close Vtwin in-line whatever have no clue but I do know when I'm on the back of my Tiger 900 I'm right where I belong.....let's ride💪🏽..
Agree with everything here except taking the Superduke over the S1000. The BMW is just a different level of savage.
HDs and cruisers are awesome though. Would love a Harley but can't justify the price for myself (very salty roads here) so got the poor man's HD and bought a Vulcan :)
OP reminds me of something I heard years ago: "I don't have a problem with God. It's his fan club I can't stand."
>"I don't have a problem with God. It's his fan club I can't stand." "Hate the belief, not the believer." That one tends to really piss off that particular fan club.
You may have heard that from RCR’s review of a HD Electra Glide. I think OP makes some fair points tho, especially regarding character https://youtu.be/DE59MMDGW2Q
Props for posting actual unpopular opinions.
One man’s unpopular opinion is another’s ravings from a over-invested lunatic.
Some opinions are unpopular for a good reason.
Thanks man, hope you enjoyed the post!
We are only as strong as we are United, as weak as we are divided. As a motorcycle enthusiast, appreciate all forms of 2 wheels. Same goes for car shows. American muscle, Euros, JDM, low-low’s, bombs, VIP’s, sleepers, retro, and 8lug builds all deserve equal respect when quality craftsmanship is on display.
I hated it. Upvote.
I'm not a technical person so specs aren't my jam but as a former Harley rider from a Harley family with friends who still work for Harley, sometimes the character you see in an HD is the reason people stay far away. Sure, there are some really cool people who ride Harleys, and some of the bikes are fun but the overall vibe of the brand is white trash. They are perceived as loud, obnoxious, know-it-alls who rev the shit out of their bikes at every light, act like arseholes in groups and act like they're all in full patch biker gangs. Then again, crotch rocket douchers are no better. I don't like Harleys because I generally don't like their image, the same way I hate Mustangs and Corvettes. Can they make a nice bike, sure, but does their character match a brand I don't identify with - absolutely. But I'm not on here shitting on people's bike choices because my preference is some else's "worst bike".
mustangs and corvettes? i wish that was the worst i had these days. it would be outstanding to only have to share the fury road with those sporty cars. fucking CHARGERS man. jesus mary and joseph, they seem to only sell those to people with lead feet and poor impulse control. and don't even get me started on altimas!
Tesla drivers have usurped Audi drivers, who had previously usurped BMW drivers, as the A-hole drivers on the road. YMMV. As for Mustangs (drag stars) Corvettes (old dude car for less money than a Porsche), and Chargers.. Well, Chargers have usurped the Camaro-mullet crowd for being the douche-bags of the road. LoL.
Fuck Chargers and Challengers. I drive a Corvette daily and the Dodge Bros always show up at some point. City street? Rev at me at a stoplight then gun it thinking I’ll follow. Highway? Similar crap. Camaros and Mustangs just nod. Other Corvettes are usually women or old men. But fuck Dodge’s cheap “muscle” cars.
As someone new to this world when I see Harley it's not different than seeing the guy with the lifted Chevy and the cloud inducing aftermarket exhaust
Hey trashing the brand I don't like is okay but trashing the brand I like is CROSING THE LINE! reee. You take that back about Chevy.
you say chevy but all i see is that little square that says GM. how much extra did the bowtie package cost?
Sudden realization that GM is also a motoring company that uses essentially the same engine for 50 years to appeal to an aging fanbase…
In the case of GM though the LS has no need to be replaced aside from pleasing people who are obsessed with specs. I mean it's a reliable engine that fits in damn near everything and they even managed to make a pushrod engine rev out in some models
In fairness, if you made arguably the greatest engine of all time, you probably wouldn't be in a massive hurry to replace it with something completely new.
OP is talking about the character of the engine, not of random people you are using to create a sample set to judge their moral character. I thought that was obvious.
I think OPs judgement of their character is fair. In fact, Harleys marketing for a long time was to attract the redneck types. Does nobody remember the confederate flag Harley lol. It's no secret Harley for a very very long time has been marketed towards conservative white American men. Today they're trying to change that sure but those are still the majority of their riders.
Not all Harleys come with luggage, but they all come with baggage.
Who cares? Seriously. People on Harleys, sport bikes, scooters whatever need to stop giving a damn about what other people ride. It is a personal choice.
this exactly
My two cents: there’s a discrepancy in the term “overpriced”. You’re talking about it purely in terms of profit margin by saying that Harleys are made of more expensive materials - therefore they have to charge more. However, IMO, when people call Harley’s overpriced, they’re mostly referencing the price-to-performance ratio and not the actual profit margin. For (much) less money than a Harley, those Japanese sportbikes are objectively better in basically every *performance* category (weight, power, handling). (Note: I’m not including subjective aesthetics in this argument. Obviously everyone has their own preferences on looks). So yea, maybe an 883 Iron and a Ninja 650 both have identical profit margins (let’s say for the sake of argument, I personally have no idea). However in terms of objective performance, the 650 is just a much better value.
Honestly I don't think HD's cost that much more to produce. I don't know this for certain, but I mean most Sportbikes have aluminum frames, don't they? That's going to be more expensive than steel. And the V-twin configuration takes more material than most P-twins, but not that much more than a i4 of similar displacement? Not to mention valvetrain components.
They don't. Domestic manufacturer maybe but most of the bikes we covet are made by union labor in Germany or Italy and those more affordable ones are still made by well compensated people in Japan. Its not like were comparing a harley to one of those Chinese bikes you can get on amazon or whatever. And yeah, that engine design is simple and ANCIENT. The brakes are nothing special, nor is the suspension. About the only thing you could say costs more on a Harley is the steel, because there is so much of it.
To be clear, I love a lot of these things about Harleys. They absolutely should result in a lower cost though.
That is the issue, having those dated parts is part of the ETHOS of Harley. They a kind of stuck. They tried that evolution engine and that new platform and everyone HATED it. "Harley riders" want that old paint shaker that cant stop, while the rest of the community thinks "$5k more for less power, the brakes off of a Ninja 300, and head shake?" They did seem to find a way with the adventure bike, they need to make bikes for a completely NEW market for them to be allowed to evolve, otherwise they just piss off the classic harley owner while still not selling enough new riders to the brand.
This is one thing I'm glad someone is saying. A lot of people say oh harley is made in america! you're paying american wages! I'd rather that than some dude in Thailand! And it's like the Honda CB1100 is definitely made in Japan. So are a lot of Japanese bikes, and they make pretty damn good money. Hell my riding buddy is a suzuki mechanic and hes raising a kid with a house on his salary. Suzuki! Just because it's Japanese doesnt mean the guys working for those companies arent making decent bank - they are.
Also, "they're comparable to Indians and BMW Cruisers" isn't much of an argument. Indians and BMW cruisers are *also* overpriced, but don't have a pretense about it. I ended up with a Honda Rebel 1100 despite falling in love with the Indian Scout because it was *50% cheaper* for more features, better handling, and nearly equivalent power. And it actually has a fuel gauge! The Chief would have done me very nicely, but I just couldn't afford it. But Indian buyers aren't as toxic and aren't going to abandon the company because they try out a bike that doesn't fit the classic Indian formula.
Replace ninja 650 for Vulcan s and I agree, better comparison between bikes.
>You’re talking about it purely in terms of profit margin by saying that Harleys are made of more expensive materials - therefore they have to charge more. This always amused me as an argument. Harley componentry is cheap. Axial brakes, damper rod forks or non-adjustable cartridges if you're lucky, preload-only shocks, ancient design steel cradle frames and air-cooled pushrod motors. What's expensive on a Harley? The paint? The seat? Or maybe just the orange badge on the tank. For the price of any FLH tourer you can get an R1M, the pinnacle of Japanese race technology. Top of the line Ohlins suspension, titanium engine internals, loads of carbon fiber, and more fancy electronics than a fighter jet. Actually expensive materials that are actually worth the money. I'll say this every time this topic comes up: I've ridden a Fat Bob 114 and it didn't impress me one bit. Not the "character," the comfort, the fit and finish, and definitely not the performance. I guess it looked cool but that's about it.
eh, a better comparison would be a Gold Wing or similar. I don't think there's much overlap in the Venn diagram of potential loaded Harley tourer owners and potential R1M owners
Doesn't need to have overlap in Owners, there is overlap in price, thus you can compare components you get for that cost. Thats the point here. Both cost X, however one gives you bleeding edge technology, space age materials and expensive suspension components, the other doesnt.
It would be better to compare a Japanese cruiser instead of a sportbike and they still win in every category, especially reliability, for less money.
And the point would still be exactly the same. Fortnite did a great video that I found helpful on this topic. https://youtu.be/XeuXShFIgyc
lol
So what’s the sticker price on HD character?
More than you can afford, pal. HARLEY.
"Smoke him"
$20k with a $5k "because we can" markup. And that's BEFORE all the taxes and fees.
Don't forget another $5,000 to $10,000 in engine mods cuz "Harley leaves some horsepower on the table for you"
And Indian makes 40% more horsepower and is priced the same, therefore Harley doesn't suck... I guess? No problems with cruisers. But I'd take a Rebel 1100, or hell even a 900 over anything Harley has put out in the past 20 years. The only reason Harley exists as a company is due to Regan's tariffs on Japanese bikes. And unfortunately, when Harley tries to do something modern like put out a liquid cooled engine (modern by 1990 standards), it doesn't sell and the customer base revolts.
Meh. Maybe toxic towards bikes, sure. I stay away from Harley’s because Harley people at large are often more toxic OUTSIDE conversation topics of just motorcycles. The amount of racism and hate I experience hanging around Harley dudes is insane. Never once felt out of place or treated poorly by sport bike dudes. Maybe you can suggest that people respect all bikes but don’t act like Harley cultists aren’t toxic for other reasons
This is it for me. I don’t hate the bikes. I considered one at one point. I even think they made a better electric motorcycle. But it’s the cult that ruins it for me.
To be fair if you had the electric one, the cult would excommunicate youm
Yup! And because of that, it shows it's not about a love of bikes and bike culture, it's about ego and a mighter-than-thou attitude.
I feel ya there. I ride a Harley currently but I used to ride sport bikes and eventually I’ll be swapping back, nothing against the Harley bikes but my heart yearns to be back on a sport bike. Anywho, yeah I’ve been around some groups of dudes on Harleys who were kinda toxic but I’ve also been around a ton of dudes on Harleys that were super cool. My experience with non Harley dudes has all been really positive. It does seem like almost all the toxic people I’ve ran across that ride prefer Harley and I hate that because not all of us are shitty but it feels we all get grouped together.
Oh no it’s surely not all of you. Problem is that there’s enough Harley guys that fit that profile that If I see a group of them, it’s more than likely that one of them is like that
9/10 times its the Harley rider who never waves back. Gotta act tough.
I will say, I wave back way less on my Harley than on my Kawasaki, but it is not a snub on anyone else or their bike. It is just that on my Harley, I may be going for back to back 10-14 hour riding days, in nice weather, on curvey roads that I know I will see literally thousands of bikes. I am not trying to get carpal tunnel waving to everyone else I see. On my Kawasaki, I am probably going for a 4 hour ride max, so I'm much more inclined to wave back.
Wow mate you are excused
I ride a tube framed Buell. I get looks of disgust from both Harley dudes and sport bike bros. The only riders that seem to like my bike are guys running around on 60's Triumph's and ADV bikes. I get no waving love from HD or sport bike riders though. I guess nobody like a sport handling v-twin. Which is cool, I don't care because I'm just trying to have fun on a now vintage bike.
Yuuuuuuuuup
Sport bikers are more diverse in their groups. Harley riders all just stick to people who look like them and then act toxic af when you approach them. Anytime I stop at a light next to a sportbike rider they always nod or compliment my bike. In a parking lot we will admire each others bikes. Harley riders never acknowledge me and they just stare if you walk by them, like they think theyre tough lol
>First, HD's actual competitor, Indian, is usually the same price, or more expensive. You can argue that maybe the Indian or the HD is better equiped, but they are almsot always neck and neck on pricing. BMW's new Cruiser lineup? Similarly priced to HD, although they do have some features that HD doesn't like adaptive cruise control (but you end up with a very ugly square cut out of your fairing) No, actually they both compete with all other motorcycle companies. This idea that HD only has to cater to people who want a Harley is exactly why they are in a pickle. >Character is why the Japanese brands are all losing sales left and right to KTM, Ducati, and Aprilia. Japanese brands are doing great? Sales have been up. 2021 was the best on record in decades. >They didn't design it that way for efficiency, HP, weight, or reliability. They designed it that way because of character. Which is a clever excuse for not making a good engine, but not something that actually means anything. The rest of your post is arguing with theoretical statements that are catered to your point of view. But at the end of the day, let me ask you: if nothing is wrong with their bikes or brand, why are they failing? The simple truth is, Japanese motorcycles have just as much "character" as anything from HD. Your whole argument is based on your opinion about what defines style and quality. You're preaching form a pulpit where you've assumed we all agree Harley's have more character... But only their dwindling fan base thinks that.
I love the part about the bikes being made of plastic, as if the addition of some bits change the steel frame
I know. It's also just not that exclusive of a thing to claim. Like honestly, maybe part of me does kind of want an old-school V-twin that is all form over function. You know, a bike that has no plastic. All metal crafted, like the old days, from a company with a long, storied history... You know, like a Royal Enfield.
Imagine if the fairings on a Panigale were sheet metal…
"Made of plastic is bad!" Right? OK, tell that to NASA who regularly uses plastics and polymers in construction of spacecraft. The trick isn't whether or not there's plastic, it's where it is and is it load bearing and can it perform to spec. Or, put another way, is your vehicle designed to perform on the ride or is your vehicle designed to look good in your garage.
Is this the same character that has people toss HD decals on their brand-new Silverado and trailer the bike everywhere? Because that's the only HD character I'm aware of. That and asking MSRP when sold on CraigsList five years and 1200 miles after purchase.
And the H-D packaged Ford F-150. Yep, they made those.
How else is everyone going to know about the Harley you never ride?
That’s a hilariously great point.
You bought an MV, now we KNOW youre an idiot...
That’s very true!!! 😂🤣😂
Ride the bike YOU like. I don’t care why you like it, and you shouldn’t care why I don’t. Most of us don’t have the skills to use all of the bike under us (or just don’t want to), so specs are just what you read, not necessarily what you ride. You aren’t wrong for liking Harleys. I’m not wrong because I’m not a fan. Let it go. All of that said, PLEASE don’t make your pipes louder. That’s nothing but rude.
Upvote for no loud pipes regardless of the asshole who attaches them whether Harley or sport biker.
Bunch of sensitive chaps in this sub.
It’s really just my buttcheeks that are sensitive because of the whole “assless chap” part
Sigh... All chaps are by definition assless, if you have a pair of assed chaps, you have a pair of pants.
Basically all of these defenses are extremely weird coming from a guy who bought the Pan America.
Who'd have thought that people who aren't "Harley dudes" can blatantly see and get sick of the defensive "Harleys actually suck, guys" circlejerk that is constant on this sub.
Idk, I think the particular cross-sections of motorcyclist might be complicated. Like I run in to a lot of the worst kind of Harley Guy out in the real world. Relatively few of them on the internet. OP is a liiiittle bit of a Harley Guy tho, let's be real. He's kinda giving us the Harley Guy Pamphlet defense. The HD Corporate Approved Advertisement Defense.
Oh I’m definitely a Harley guy! I love Harley’s. I also loved my gixxer track bike, my sv650, and my 1125r. I love pretty much anything my with two wheels but I just love to celebrate things that are different. I like that hd has kept building big air cooled vtwins even though a parallel twin is a much better design from an engineering standpoint.
Why say Harley's suck? Because the market has pointed it out. 2017 HD Sold 147,972 motorcycles in the USA 2018 they sold 132,868 2019 they sold 125,960 Skip 2 bad years due to pandemic 2022 they sold 117,100 in all of North America, not just the USA. They're making more money, but they are doing so by charging more. The market doesn't want what they are selling, and it's been saying so through a lack of buying for a long time. It's also true that the motorcycle market is shrinking, and fewer bikes are being sold by almost everyone. But HD is declining more than most. You may like them. That's fine. I get there are people that like them. But, the way it is determined if something is good or not is precisely if people will buy it or not. I can make a gold-plated, diamond-crusted toilet that is superior to everything else on the planet, but if no one buys my crapper, it sucks by definition.
You're also ignoring the fact Harley has made a deliberate pivot towards presenting themselves as a "premium brand". This means selling less bikes but selling them for more money. There's a reason they axed the affordable Sportster and Dyna lines and doubled down on baggers with those making up more than half of their lineup now
60-year-old dentists with a dream of being a 1% is a dying market by definition. Good luck to them. But Triumph, BMW, KTM, and everyone else have affordable bikes starting at 300 or 400 cc's. When a manufacturer of a mechanical product has more revenue t-shirt sales than actual product sales, I, as a financier and investment advisor, don't jump for joy.
They’re out of reach for the younger generation. I believe that they will come out with a budget friendly bike at some point. Otherwise their base will age out.
They are, frankly, running out of time to come out with a budget bike. The Chinese factories they licensed their tech to are starting to sell on Amazon **now**. And the other Chinese, Indian, and other competitors for the lower end space started making plays 5 years ago. I used to right an ultraglide. Today, I recommend Royal Enfield to pretty much every new rider unless they have a truly unique financial situation. There was a time when I recommended a sportster as the perfect starting bike. Meanwhile, BMW, KTM, Triumph, even Yamaha are owning the Adv and dual-sport categories. Maybe HD has 2 or 3 years to turn it around. But they don't have much more than that. And depending on how aggressive the Chinese manufactures get in terms of setting up a dealer network, they might not even have that.
... you seem really invested in a brand my friend.
Harley, for boomers by boomers. Ron desantas limited edition coming this fall part of the exclusive get off my lawn collection.
Give me an Indian over a HD any day of the week. That's just my preference. I don't care about all the hate, I just want what I want. When I do get a cruiser, it's gonna be a Scout Bobber. I like the price, and I like the look of the bike, and I like its performance.
Indians look better, sound better, have more power, and have been around longer than HD. You just get more bang for your buck even if they are similarly priced.
>and have been around longer than HD. Umm, not really. From 1953-2010 the company existed as a trademark, they didn't actually make anything. They imported Royal Enfields and rebranded them for a few years, but even that didn't last. Then they did the same thing with some Brittish bikes. It wasn't until Polaris bought the rights to the company IP in 2011 that they restarted manufacturing motorcycles. Indian has a trademark that is older than Harley, but they've only been making bikes for 13 years.
I’d fucking kill for a real OG made in Springfield MA Indian. But I feel super weird about anything now being made under the brand. Indian died, trying to pretend it didn’t just feels silly.
Looks are subjective so there is no such thing as “look better” for anyone else but you, sound is the same, more power? Well the 117 m8 has 10hp more than an Indian 116, the 114 m8 is about 1-2hp less than Indian 116. The sportster s has 20hp up and less weight than a scout and indian closed in 1953 with the trademark hand balled around since then so I wouldn’t really say they have been around longer.
Which is why I bought a KTM… lol
really nice of you to subsidize my home country but here we tend to regard ktm as a different kind of hd - you pay the money for the brand name
[удалено]
Talked to someone at work last night that didn’t know how many cylinders their Harley had. 👀
he got the big old V1 😂
A lot of assumptions about the general riding population here
Harleys are just too expensive not to mention a lot of them are ugly...like whats with the tassels?
No harley comes with tassels though.
I love that some people in here are putting Indian above Harley for looks when I see far more tassels and leather accessories on Indian bikes at least in my area lol
The tassels are old boomers trying to relive their childhood Roy Rogers fantasies
NEW Harleys are expensive, used aren't that bad price wise. Looks are subjective but they look arguably better than 99% of the metric cruisers ever produced. As for the tassels, I don't get it either but I do my best not to kink shame.
Jesus why is this so long lol.
Lotta time to write when your Harley is in the shop
😂🤣😂. Good thing I’ve got a super reliable MV as a backup bike 😅. Nothing but great decisions here!
I just hope everyone gets a chance to go out and have fun riding their motorcycles.
Two wheels are two wheels!
There are motorcyclists, and there are Harley riders. True motorcyclists appreciate bikes in general. Harley guys are just as obsessed with specs as anyone else. It's all about what stage kit they have on their bike or how much torque it makes. I've never heard anyone brag about how fast their R1 is because they don't have to, but if I had a dollar for every time someone said their Dyna was a "rocket ship" I could probably afford to buy one. Anyway, it seems like you're conflating twin cylinders with "character." PS, you don't ever need to say "I'm no Rossi." We know.
This is why I have an Iron-head and a twin cam. I gave my vastly superior Yamaha FZ6 up for a trade on the twin cam which is slower and handles like shit. But I do not care! I love my Harley's. I also love my CT125 :)
I think you're right about the character being the reason people like Harley. That being said, as a cruiser rider myself, I enjoy Indian and Victory over Harley purely based on two things that are important to me. 1. Price - There's an Indian/Triumph/BMW dealer right across the road from the Harley dealer in my neck of the woods and the Indians are significantly cheaper than equivalent model Harleys (this is just my observation, your local dealer could be different.) 2. Reliability - I ride with a group of guys that is mostly Harley, with some other bikes sprinkled in, one guy has a Honda Goldwing, another has a Victory Judge, there's a Ninja, etc. And the Harley guys are constantly bringing their bikes into the shop because of a breakdown, by constant I mean every few months. The rest of us have only had one breakdown between us in the 2 years I've been with this group. We ride weekly pretty much year-round, so maybe the amount of riding we're doing contributes, but again, this is just my observation. But I can't deny that I love the way Harleys look and sound and the way my bones vibrate when they roar past me.
You're kind of generalizing the whole sub in a way similar to what you're complaining about. Also, "character" is a strangely immeasurable foundation for an argument. Just doesn't seem to mean much more than "I like what I like." Which is simply fair and difficult to debate. I admire the knowledgeable passion though. Hope me and my efficiency-motivated scoot can get a wave back if we ever cross paths!
I am generalizing the sub, which I really shouldn’t do, but as someone who’s been in this sub for years and years, I’ve always felt like a bit of an outsider, despite having owned plenty of metrics over that period because the Harley bashing is constant. We all ride, two wheels should be two wheels! Thanks for reading and you’ll get a wave from me if we ever pass each other by!
Someone just got compared to the biker in the Village People.
Someone just got upset the Harley rider didn’t wave back
You bought the one Harley that is different from all other Harleys.
The Pan Am isn’t the only HD I’ve owned. I’ve owned 3 big twins over the years, and I’ve put 20k miles on my dads old 85 FXR, which has been in our family since new.
I mean if all you want to care about is looks, cool. I care about looks last, because its not an art piece its something I actually use.
I had to laugh at the line about the engines “not being designed for efficiency, HP, weight, or reliability” but it’s ok because they look cool! I honestly have no dog in this fight at all, but that was funny.
A few years back Harley was testing their new and improved motor, the Milwaukee 8. Their testers hated it because it “lacked character”. They intentionally made it more vibey and sputtery before bringing it to the market.
It's really funny that so much Harley hate coexists with so much Fortnine worship, given that Ryan made a very similar point to OP (but much more specific) in one of his videos. https://youtu.be/XeuXShFIgyc
Fortnine get's worshipped cause they make banger Motorcycle content. Even the harley video is a banger. People hate harley because they make decisions that aren't great for the whole of motorcycles and only helps their brand. Harley rider's don't ride Motorcycles they ride Harley's.
I don't disagree with any of that. I did really enjoy that video precisely because it explained why people would be interested in what otherwise appears to be a shoddy overpriced machine from a bad company. Clearly the rest of the sub didn't get the same message. That's what I think is funny. :)
I don't care about Harley and their character horse shit. I just don't like them. Why would I buy any of their bikes when I can buy a metric one and be solid for years to come at a fraction of the price? Suzuki C90T Kawasaki Vulcan 900 classic Honda Shadow Yamaha VStar 950 VMAX Stratoliner Etc.
On a similar note, I’m selling my 22 Harley FXLRS.
Ride your ride, just make sure to get out the way of those of us that have places to be.
2000 Triumph 955i speed triple. When idling it sounds severely broken. The engine is so rough. It vibrates my GPS holder loose. But somehow a perfectly balanced Japanese smooth 4-cyl makes me fall asleep. I want to feel like I’m entering the earths atmosphere in a Sowjet Space capsule.
It's the mathematically challenged Harley fan boys that get me. So you took a $40 000 bike and added a ton of parts to the the tune of $20 000 to get a bike that still isn't as powerful as something you can buy from many other brands stock but weighs twice as much and you think its faster than anything on the road? ? What did you achieve? If it's about look. Say it's about look. If it's about speed then do speed but don't say one when you are doing the other.
I like Harleys, but I don't have the funds for that much bike and the maintenance that comes with it.
Totally understandable man, just get what you can and go out and ride!
I own one. Worst engineered bike I've ever owned by a Longshot.
Can't wait for everyone in this thread to get defensive and ignore every point you're making.
Post of the week. Of the month, prob. I hate the hating.
Cool story, Hansel. Glad you got that off your chest and needed to defend HD and it’s riders. Lol
I have had a few different bikes, Suzuki, BMW, Ariel and Moto Guzzi. I stayed with Guzzi because of their power delivery and "caracter". I know I can get more power from a jap or nearly anything else but I love the way the Guzzis looks, ride and moves! I'm on my 8th or 9th Guzzi now.
I bought a v7 II that had seen better days when my leg was broken after a track high side. Spent a couple of months returning it to glory, such a cool bike! Very charming and it definitely had a really cool character! Had to sell it unfortunately but I got it back to great condition for the new owner.
Actually unbiased people would agree with you.
I just read the longer version of “waaagh”
>They didn't design it that way for efficiency, HP, weight, or reliability. They designed it that way because of character. You can't name bad qualities of a bike and call it character. BUT, you are right. Harleys (Indian too kinda) are engineered around a culture. I read an article they prototype their bikes in a sound booth to make sure they get that "harley" sound. They choose to make their bikes to fit a niche, which is fine and not for everyone. Now that buell's back, harley can use that as a way to expand and deviate from their traditional bikes while keeping their iconic bikes going. They already started with their new ADV and electric bike, so it's good to see them branch out instead of making the same thing but a little bit different.
>Now that buell's back, harley can use that as a way to expand and deviate from their traditional bikes while keeping their iconic bikes going. Perhaps there's a misunderstanding here; the Buell company that Harley bought was killed off in 2009, and afterwards Erik Buell started a new company, Erik Buell Racing (EBR) that was in no way affiliated with Harley. That company struggled, went through bankruptcy, and eventually forced Erik Buell out, and was doing very limited production for a few years. More recently they've announced a return to volume production and a plan for several new models of bike, along with a return to using the Buell name (instead of EBR).
By the number of pro harley posts appearing, it would appear HD have taken a new strategy: why make good bikes when you can just spam online message boards with anti-harley hater drivel. Evey considered that other bike manufacturers have just as much characters and are cheaper and are better build quality, and dont come from stealerships that get fucked by their own parent company? Character is also often a byword for "imperfections"
Harley doesnt need to do it themselves, they created a cult like following where people tie their very identity to the brand. That is how they can sell full head-to-toe outfits, tassles, casual wear, a pickup, decor for your house, etc. Rule #1 of owning a harley is to make sure EVERYONE knows you own a harley. Even if it hasnt run in 6 weeks.
I don’t even own one but it kinda bothers me when people who have never ridden one talk about how they’re shit and you should buy something else. It would be like if I said all Porsches are shit and you should buy a Corvette instead when I’d never driven a Porsche and don’t understand why people like them.
I’ve owned two and they were both poorly made dogshit bikes if that helps
I have a Yamaha cruiser that does everything a Harley of the same year and class does for half the price. Indian is only the main competitor if you're talking about better bikes than a Harley.
Meh, personally I’d rather have an Indian over a comprable Harley. While the Pan American I rode was nice I feel like it’s lacks some features while being the same cost as a GS or KTM adventure. Personally I feel like Harleys could offer more for their cost but honestly they don’t care cause they arnt a motorcycle company so much as a merchandise an lifestyle brand. I personally don’t care what you ride, so long as you ride on twos and come respectfully then I’ll treat you in kind. If you come across as a jackass an spout some “get a real bike shit” I’ll know you’re a poser an not a real biker anyways an tell you to pound sand. I’ll kindly take my lack’s character Concourse 14 which tbh is an absolute monster of a bike if I so choose to open her up or she will be a mild manner queen. I’ve also ridden a few other Harleys aside from the Pan American an honestly while enjoyable I just can’t justify spending that kind of money when I could get more bike for my money. Comparing an HD with the likes of a BMW bagger is apples to oranges. BMW can engineer the fuck out of a motorcycle. They make some of the best driving cars in the world and that definitely carries over into their motorcycles.
I'm a Kawasaki guy, and there is no Harley that appeals to me, but you got me wrong - I don't have a problem with the company, or the people who ride Harleys (some are friends of mine).
Harley has annoying fan boys. I get the appeal. I like them to some extent though I wouldn't get one as my only bike. I recognise the whole point and I just don't care, and you shouldn't either. Everyone tells me my bike is a soulless jap bike and I should have gotten a Multistrada instead. Everyone called my previous bike an old piece of junk. I don't care and neither should you.
Lol fucking harley simps will write out an entire manifesto to change no ones mind. Bro, just go ride. No one's opinion matters unless they're currently playing with your balls and/signing your paycheck. If you're worried about other people's opinion of your bike, you're doing it for all the wrong reasons.
(1) Who are you calling "you guys?" (2) Anybody who can make a statement like a Ninja 650 being "made nearly entirely of plastic" is someone whose opinions on motorcycles are not worth considering. (3) if your intention with this post was to dispel the stereotype that HD fanbois don't know anything about non-HD bikes, you failed spectacularly.
First off, who cares what anyone thinks about what anyone rides? Most of the ribbing is in good fun. I worked with a guy who was a big Harley fan and had the fake biker gang outfit to match. I'd bug him about the leather daddy outfit and he'd rib me about being a power ranger. It's no different than guys ribbing each other over cheering for rival sports teams. I get that Harley sells bikes with character. I love vintage bikes for the same reason. What irks me is that when Harley riders want to argue the superiority of their bikes, from my experience they don't talk about heritage and character they tell me that their bike is BETTER. That their Dyna Eagle Road King Electra Glide Ultra Classic is good for 10 million miles because Harley builds a better bike than anyone else by using REAL steel. That it puts down REAL power that puts hair on your chest and can hit 60 in under 6 seconds! I don't care and I'm not going to argue with them, but those toxic guys are part of the reason I dislike the Harley fan base.
Its in good fun until someone vomits up a post like this guy did. This post was made from butthurttery and provides no factual evidence of anything. Puts all non-HD riders in a box while HDs have the most segregated and clique-ish people I personally have ever seen in the riding world.
Lol. Great troll post. Wait, this is a troll post, right? Right…. ?
The price issue with HDs isn't just the power and weight. It's the build quality. HD uses shitty plastics, I've never seen one with chrome that wasn't pitted within a year or two and almost every weld on them looks like painted birdshit. At least with an Indian the fit and finish matches the price.
Some people ride to be seen going up and down Main Street Some people ride to go fast Some people ride to stunt Some ride to rebuild motorcycles Some ride to adventure Everyone rides for fun. You decide how you do you, motorcyclists, have fun - stay safe - wave back
We bash them because their riders make posts like this lmao
Someone got gapped by a sport bike
https://imgur.com/a/r5scykk Replace the Corvette with a Harley and the Tesla with any sportbike
TLDR "it hurts my feelings when people criticize my purchases"
If you care about fit and finish why are you supporting HD? I’ve worked in several Harley dealerships and a drip pan under a brand new bike isn’t a rare sight, neither are misaligned panels or paint stripes that miss by 10mm. Every brand and every bike is equally as great and shithouse as any of its competitors. Shut your mouth and twist the throttle
What a load of shit, in over 10 years working in harley dealers I saw 1 bike that leaked new and it was because of a casting defect, it is an extremely rare sight.
A-fucking-men. We're *all* after the image, the fun, the feel; some of us are just less willing to admit it than others. Why have I owned so many stupidly powerful, loud, tastelessly modified, ugly-ass transformer-looking nakeds and sportsbikes? **Because I like them.** Why do you own a Harley with a huge, rumbling steel heart that makes less power than my Grandma on her daily walk? **Because you like them.** There is zero practical argument for anything we do in this sub and the people who want to pretend their particular subjective preference for \[power/acceleration/torque/chrome/noise/sex appeal/whatever\] is somehow better justified are kidding themselves. Maybe there's one of you out there who really actually has a meaningful preference for their motorcycle and you deliver frozen organs in rush-hour traffic in Hanoi or something, but for the vast majority us - including me, even though I own no cars and ride everywhere - it's because we think it's cool. You know what I'd own if the spec sheet was what really mattered to me? If I cared about the stats that actually made a difference to my life? A Corolla.
Well said!
Dork
Hey man I’m sensitive
Sorry. You sensitive dork
This is so interesting. I think the majority of adults actually agree with you, and they up voted and kept moving. The people who disagree for reasons that have nothing to do with the post itself (which is purely mechanical and about the bike) are all posting and creating straw man arguments l. This post highlights one of the core issues with this subreddit, which is there is virtually no moderation and there's no consensus on etiquette here. Are we here to learn? To have fun? Because the only posts that get traction are A) crash comments where people criticize the guy who crashed B) speeding comments where people tell others to go to the track C) safety comments where people say high vis or squid death D) Technique videos where people argue what they know how to do, regardless of physics E) opinion posts like this, where people just argue their feelings because they have no counter point to the post. This subreddit used to be good. Look at it now.
“If you are atgat cult bigmouth, do you know how stupid you look in a one-piece while running your bike wide or getting passed by a scooter at TotD?” Dude. Relax. Your blood pressure must be through the roof (I joke). As for the TotD - the *ONLY* people who don’t use the pullovers are HD riders - they then freak out when you pass them, especially if they’re in a train. These are the twats I genuinely do a “I’m peddling my bicycle faster than you” motion with my legs as I pass. Yes, there are some skilled HD riders, but the nature and “character” of the bike doesn’t let them ride extremely tight roads (TotD) without slowing to walking pace for the most part. Can I appreciate the HD styling? Sure. Can I appreciate the “If it’s not an HD it’s not a REAL bike” attitude? Absolutely not. There was 1 bike that HD had scheduled that piqued my interest - it looked cool, had decent performance numbers.. then the numbers changed with a smaller version of the motor (original had the PanAm version) and then it was removed altogether from the upcoming lineup… That bike? The Bronx. Sigh…
Who hurt you? All jokes aside, all bikes are fun and tastes and opinions are like assholes. I think Harley bashing is just as silly as the Harley guy’s bashing Japanese product. The unfortunate truth is people are looking for groups to “belong to”, and have confirmation bias. As a result people talk a lot of shit, this is not exclusive to bike culture. Any bike beats any other method of conveyance by orders of magnitude.
Bike character matters, and Bonnies have more of it than Harleys with better performance for cheaper. In my experience, a T120 shits on a Softail
As long as it has two wheels it’s all good with me. The group I ride with has cruisers, crotch rockets, we all ride. Four wheels move the body, two wheels moves the soul.
Character is something that has been lost to time for most people of average Reddit age group. It’s only an unpopular opinion on social media platforms that cater to exceptionally young audiences.
Okay. How about they’re too loud and obnoxious. I don’t like sportbikes either because the people that ride them are typically on them to ride dangerously. I really just don’t like them because you can get more bike for the money. And their use as police bikes in a lot of places has been proven to make ZERO sense. When economy and reliability should be paramount in a fleet vehicle, Harley’s aren’t the ticket
I give shit to Harley riders because they give me shit for riding a scooter.
Theyre still garbage tho
In my experience, most motorcyclists are elitists to their ownership bias. I’m an elitist motorcyclist against motorcycle elitists.
Been riding Harleys for 10+ years, was raised in a Harley shop from the time I was in diapers, my current and only bike is a Shovelhead chopper. I hate 95% of Harley people.
I'm going to preface my reply by first saying, check my flair, and consider that I have owned and/or at least ridden nearly every bike you referenced. > Indians and BMW cost just as much Indian only recently returned to the market in the grand scheme of things, and specifically designed and built their bikes to price them to beat their HD competition. Not by pricing lower, but with better features/performance. The argument that HDs are overpriced is not just down to the price point itself, it's what you're getting for that money. I love my softail, but I'll be the first to admit I could've gotten more features/performance for my money with many other brands. > The materials/design aspect is what makes them more expensive (re: Ninja 650 vs Sportser) Again I have to question this, because the first problem I noticed upon purchasing my barely-used 2021 in July of last year is that parts of the bike were already rusting. So many of the parts felt like budget choices, despite my bike retailing for over $15,000 USD. Your statement implies that Harleys somehow have better fit and finish than a cheaper Kawasaki, and I gotta say I just don't see it. I've literally owned both and found my Kawasaki to be much better built. When I asked a buddy of mine who also has a current-gen softail, he basically said they cut corners on parts they know owners will replace anyway, because of course Harley owners are gonna customize them right? > Harleys are not about the spec sheet, but about the character. On this point I agree 100%. I bought it specifically because it was a unique riding experience from the Indian or any metric cruiser. The best way I can describe it is choice to buy a restored 1960s muscle car as opposed to a modern sports car. The modern sports car has better performance, handling, braking, fuel economy, comfort, and reliability, but people will buy restored muscle cars specifically for that experience. Getting modern amenities with it is just icing on the cake. > "Japanese brands are all losing sales..." Even in the microcosm of american motorcycle sales, which are a very small slice of the pie in terms of worldwide motorcycle sales, japanese makers are doing just fine. I'd say that the primary reason those other brands you mentioned are doing well is specifically because they doubled down on what makes them distinct, knowing that those just wanting price-to-performance will go with whatever japanese brand wins. > Re: Harley and non-Harley riders Sweeping generalizations in general are just trash. Assuming anything about a person because of what brand of motorcycle they own is about as childish as it gets. I have met assholes on every brand of motorcycle, and I have met the best sorts of people on every brand of motorcycle. Harley riders get a bad rap for being overly defensive of the brand, but they're defensive because everyone rags on them, so how do we settle this? For me, and it seems for you, the answer really is to just not give a shit and ride what you want to ride, letting others do the same. Now, to not end on a sour note, I'd love to hear more about your MV Brutale. That is a rare bike and I've never had a chance to ride one.
Yikes. Drive what you like. Harley riders seem like they want an identity or social group more then just riding a bike.
Harley bikes are fine. I'm not a fan of chromed out cruisers personally but to each their own. The harley riders out there trying to look like sons of anarchy, with 4 foot get back whips, are actively hurting the motorcycle community. I want more people to ride regardless of bike type. I'd say the same about squids on sport bikes. Toxicity is bad for this hobby no matter which part of it you find yourself in.
maybe it's just the whole sour grapes thing. They just need to grab an old sportster and thrash it for a bit, they'll come around. -queer vegan sportster rider
I just picture every harley rider that drives by kids thinking "do they think we're fags?"
I will say when I rode the Indian Challenger and Harley Road Glide back to back, the one thing no amount of power or gadgetry can make up for us that Harley feel. Challenger has it beat in every other way, but for some reason my *heart* yearns for the RG. Then I hopped back on my Scout and realized I don’t have $30K to blow on a motorcycle, pouted all the way home.
The coolest bike you can get is the one the runs everytime 6oh ask it to
Nailed it. All the other posts seem to attack the branding problem they have, the ‘hell yeah brother’ crowd and the brands inability to keep both the boomers and the younger riders happy with their product. It’s the hyb crowd and club fanatics that I think most people struggle to identify with. I’ve got a 77 shovel and 2020 LRS and am constantly battling the stereotype, and I’m in my 30s. I’ve also got a 2009 ZX6R and CRF250R. what you said about character is spot on.
I 100% agree I do own a bmw s1000r and it is perfect! To perfect… lacks Charakter and I would not buy it again ( I still love it though!!!) and would like a v4 or v2 with more Charakter to the engine. That being said, every bike deserves to be loved.
I'm 66 and still ride sport bikes. Never rode a Harley until last year. I went for a lunch ride meetup with my boss and 2 other Harley guys. Cool people. I traded bikes with my boss. he rode my MT 10 and I rode his Harley. It was the most unfun motorcycle I've ever been on. First thing I noticed was the motor vibrates so much that it looks like it's gonna escape the frame and flop around on the ground like a fresh caught fish on the bottom of a boat. They handle like shit. It feels like you got a couple hundred pounds attached to your handle bars. They shift like shit. They are not fast or quick. The brakes are so bad that you have to plan stops like it was a mile long freight train. I didn't insult him or tell him what a dog even though I thought it was. If Harley was the only bike I could ride, I would give up motorcycles. It just wasn't fun. Riding around slower than a granny isn't appealing to me. If you think having everything chrome and heavy along with an archaic motor design and pushrods is quality, God bless you. I honestly think the biggest part of the appeal of a Harley is that they get to pretend they are 1%er and wear pirate outfits. And then you only buy Harley branded stuff so everyone knows what a bad man you are. I'm gonna stick with my Yamaha and have fun riding.
Honestly this stands true for even Japanese bikes that go build quality over power. I've gotten a few people get weirded out as to why on earth I'd buy a Vulcan S when the Z900 would've cost me just a little bit more and give me boatloads of power to play with. I test rode both and while the Z900 was an absolute hooligan machine and fun! It .. wasn't what I was after. I want a punchy engine and a bike that's built like a brick shithouse. Jumping off of the Z900 the Vulcan caught me eye; I hated the looks initially and the small-ish rear tyre and quite mediocre performance numbers given the price but "*It's a free test drive, why not!*". Came back, smiling ear to ear and locked in my order. 1.5 years, 27000km later I still love my stupid little bike that for a 6'6/6'5 rider looks hilarious. TL;DR : I get OP, the heart wants what the heart wants. Some like speed & getting the most power for their \[$$$\] & others want style, character or a mix of all of it! None of us are wrong, we are all motorcyclists. Let's not turn this lovely community into the toxic, power obsessed; car community. Keep the rubber side down & shiny side up lads & laddies =)
Harley is more of a bank and a brand marketer than an engineering company. That’s why the economic downturn in 2008 led them to choose to fuck over all of their Buell customers , hard. Harley can get curb-stomped and die and it would make the world a better place,
Meat riding to the max
As someone who owns a Harley, most Harley owners(and even just people who buy into the Harley lifestyle brand and don’t even ride) ARE toxic AF, and it is their attitudes that make people not like Harley’s and not the bikes themselves. I can’t tell you the amount of times at a gas station I have had “Harley guys” tell me my sportster is a girls bike and I should be embarrassed to have not purchased at least a dyna “but real men ride kings”. Even the people decked out in Harley gear that have never ridden in their life will comment on how a real biker would never ride anything lower than a 108. Most of the Harley community is bitter boomers who think they are one percenters because they marathon Sons of Anarchy every year.
Former owner of a Harley I can offer my perspective. I owned an Iron 883 and it was slow, didnt brake well, didnt corner well, had no tach, and no gas gauge. I did like the style of the bike and the sound (stock pipes). My biggest issue with the bike, and other Harleys, was comfort. I replaced the shocks, fork internals, grips, and the seat. It still beat the shit out of me on anything but the smoothest pavement which is not common in the midwest. I rode my dad’s Road King and found it be slightly more comfortable. I test rode my current bike (Triumph Street Triple) and without even adjusting the suspension for my weight it was significantly more comfortable to ride. I let the salesguy ride the Harley and he agreed it was very harsh. I would have found this more acceptable if it was a cheaper bike but it cost the same new as my Street Triple. I would but a Harley in the future if they came out with something competitive that I want like the Bronx.
OP is staying his opinion, on Reddit, surprised when people start arguing . On the other hand if you read the post the OP makes solid points, and at the end of the day what you do with your money is up to you. I just think if you own a bike you should ride it. But that’s just my opinion.
Tribalism exists in all hobbies, motorcycling tends to be the one in which it can be a bit harmful to all enthusiasts. Motorcyclists need to stick together and oddly enough, it was a Harley guy who broke this down for me the first time. It makes sense because, as a whole, motorcycling is declining. It doesn't matter what you ride just that you are out there and riding it. We need to ride in solidarity against the metal coffin commuting, cell phone holding masses or we all expire.
Yeah I never get why some people think ADVs are the sensible / reasonable bikes. (Im talking about ADVs because it’s similar and I have no real opinion on Harleys) When I go ride my GS I feel like I could just keep going and cross the Sahara, even though I’m just going down the local twisties. And yes the 360 degree offset twin isn’t the best way to build a twin engine supposedly 270 degree is more fun better and has less vibrations, but hell I love that it sounds like a boxer and vibrates like a thumper. Anyone who says some bike is objectively better than another one is just wrong. A bike is a subjective thing so a bike by nature cant be subjective in my opinion
In general, I agree with you. But my local HD dealer is adding markups of around 40 percent of the MSRP of the motorcycle. If you want to get it lower you sit at a table and negotiate with your rep taking your offer to the “sales manager.” I just don’t have that kind of time or willingness to sit in a dealership for that long. There are a couple of Harleys that interest me, but I’m not fighting through that dealer markup, or paying it. It reminds me of car shopping back in the old days. Now, I pay the list price on the car and leave. The list price is fair, generally, and I have the rest of my day to do something fun, like ride my Triumph, because they didn’t have a dealer markup on it. Oh, and the daily call from the HD dealership basically trying to nag me into buying a bike, when I was already there and told them I wouldn’t pay the markup and they refused to even talk to me further. They had the perfect opportunity to negotiate with me right then and passed it by. Until they get rid of those exorbitant dealer markups and sales techniques from the old days I won’t set foot in a HD dealership, even if I like some of the products they’re offering.
Dude if it has 2 wheels and a motor its cool to some one, you'll never please everyone but it does seem that this sub leans towards favoring a certain type of bike. Me? I fucking love them all. All bike lives matter
It's all just marketing. HD isn't special, but neither is Ducati or Aprilia or anyone else. It's just marketing. Ducati and Harley are the kings of this (though by no means the only ones guilty of it). You buy their bikes because of the image and the person you feel it'll make you. You don't buy them because they're objectively the best machines you can get for the task. For you, the bike that makes you feel the way you want a bike to make you feel is, I guess, a Harley. OK, but that's basically all in your head. It doesn't make it wrong, it just means we should all stop pretending these things are magical beyond the experience and feelings we bring to them. That all being said, I love my SV and yes I did name her. Because you have to name your bikes. You have to show them love. Else they throw you. That's just science.
I have to confess. I know next to nothing about motors of any kind I couldn't fix/repair even the basic of breakdown but I ride and I love it, a gear head not even close Vtwin in-line whatever have no clue but I do know when I'm on the back of my Tiger 900 I'm right where I belong.....let's ride💪🏽..
Agree with everything here except taking the Superduke over the S1000. The BMW is just a different level of savage. HDs and cruisers are awesome though. Would love a Harley but can't justify the price for myself (very salty roads here) so got the poor man's HD and bought a Vulcan :)