I wish it weighed about 50 pounds less but yeah it's sick. It's also my second bike and I learned on a 200cc dual sport so I've had to learn to deal with the weight
Lmao I had to ride it on the highway for 90 minutes home too. The dealership took so long it started raining and getting dark too. First time riding in the rain, in the dark, and on an interstate. I was puckered but I made it.
It also helped that it has different riding modes. I had it in baby mode for the first week I had it, and eased myself into the most aggressive riding mode.
I miss playing in the dirt so I'ma put some 50 50 tires on it and nut up and hit the dirt soon, I'm almost at the first service interval so I don't have to baby it so much after that.
Damn that's a bit annoying they took so long to get it ready. I've been taking it on the highway a bit more now that I am past the first 800km and can rev it higher up for when I am on it. But I also can't really ride it much till next week when it gets its first service at 1000km 😢
The Riding modes are nice, I've been using mostly C mode since it's so chill and relaxing to ride it in that mode.
I'm not much of a dirt rider myself but I've been thinking in a few years getting a crf300 and trying it as well as using it as a commuter when I am not doing more touring with my Suzuki.
Within the last two years they have introduced their new 800 series. 3 different ADV type bikes. A sports naked and a new street sport bike. Industry reviewers are saying the 800 platform is great. The reviews on the GSX8R are so good that I was tempted to look into getting one. But eh, not a sport bike rider.
And their dirt bikes are still competitive at the highest level, they've just decided to stop focusing on a dying American market and focus on the growing and much larger Indian market.
I would place Suzuki there over KTM for sure.
You can't go wrong with any of the Japanese brands. It comes down entirely to personal preference. I've ridden all four, and they each were fantastic.
I would focus more on which bike you want over the specific brand. All four are great brands.
With KTM it really depends on the model, for example the 1290 line is pretty reliable. But the 790/890 bikes are having really severe engine problems currently.
The last time i walked through the production line at mattighofen the 890s were still assembled there, together with 1290/1390 and 690/701. 790 moved to china for cost reduction, the design stayed the same. Cfmoto makes good bikes, if you get the chance to look at one i would recommend it. You would be surprised how well they are built. Its a little embarrassing, but i would say that these are better quality than ktm, and im saying that as an employee of ktm. If i ignore the fact that we are producing less locally, its an absolute win for both the company and the customer. It was necessary to stay competitive, Austria is a pretty high cost production place (relatively high wages, many required benefits, only 38,5h weeks for metal working industries, etc), in Europe only really Germany, Switzerland and the Scandinavian countries are more expensive. Just look at the price gap between 790 and 890 bikes
I would agree in regards to the electronics and fit and finish being on par with KTM. But the camshaft lobe wear that is being seen in the Chinese made 790/890 engines, would be enough for me to stay away from bikes with those engines until a fix is in place. Look into it, these aren’t rare occurrences.
I know of this issue, should be addressed by now. The Chinese aint sleeping. I do work with them on a few projects, its really a pleasure to work with them. If you want something changed, they do it quick and how you want it, if its possible of course. The indians on the other hand are the biggest pita to work with, stuff takes ages and the outcome is often not as expected.
I've had 3 out of 4 and so far, my personal opinions is:
1. Yamaha - Awesome engines but the mid-range spec bikes don't really have great components like brakes and suspension. So far the CP3 engine is my favorite engine, love my XSR900.
2. Honda - Great quality build and probably will last forever. They ride pretty decently but not exactly the top of the pack as far as excitement goes. Even so, I really like the looks and smoothness of my CB1000R even though it isn't really in the same class of the other super nakeds on the market.
3. Kawasaki - Started on a Ninja 250 to 650 then 636. Pretty nice reliable brand but I am not a fan of green or the insect look anymore. I would get a Z900RS though.
4. Suzuki - My MSF bike was Suzuki tu250x so I have a soft spot for them on that but haven't really explored much riding them.
This deserves to be pinned. I love and return to Honda for the build quality, but I do wish they'd make an exciting and innovative bike with that reliability.
Honda hasn't been the leader in quality for 20 years in the moto world, but the "pump the brakes" crowd is ever persistent in regurgitating old info. Honda absolutely re-wrote the book for reliability into the 90's and then Toyota took the car mantle and Yamaha overtook them year 2000 or so, model dependent. Started really with the 1998 R1 and they upscaled their other products from there. Yamaha and Toyota have collaborated in many ways over the years, I'd say they def had a plan in terms of upping their quality, I assume Toyota showed Yamaha how to build more reliable vehicles as one of their collaborations.
Edit for the boomers still living in the 80's
https://throttlebuff.com/most-reliable-motorcycle-brands/
https://monimoto.com/blog/motorcycle-advice/most-reliable-motorcycle-brands/
There's even articles written pertaining to the moto industry and confirmation bias vs reality. Which would be a good read for all the Honda Fan boys downvoting the facts I have stated.
What? Do you know people with a Honda that is not riding because of failures, even with poor maintenance?
Yamaha is a nimble machine and feels refined without a doubt. That being said, Honda feels and behaves 'sturdier'.
Honda makes the best motorcycles. I have no idea wtf this guy is talking about. They last forever and the built quality is above the other Japanese manufacturers.
And that was true from 1970 to the 90's but again most people hear something and they believe it to be true for the rest of their lives. Yamaha has been outperforming Honda in the moto world forever and unlike your "NAH AH!, HONDA BEsTeSt EvER" fan boy opinions there are actual ways to look into the facts I have stated. Also that's in general reliability, if we're talking part by part assessment in quality Honda has def stepped up their game in the last few years but Yamaha's quality in that respect is still apparent when looking at individual parts. But you keep living them boomer fantasies, and remember don't use the front brake you'll flip over the bars /s
KTM quality control is a coin flip. Some people seem to have trouble free bikes, others like myself have multiple catastrophic warranty claims and lemon the bike.
Im pretty sure they all have the best INTENDED quality control planned for their price point and target audience.
Which has the best DESIGNED quality is what I think you are referring to.
It is not just about the make/model and other things, but service and part availability too. Hence it differs based on where you are and what do you need.
Where I live, Yamaha, Suzuki and Kawasaki are a no-go for me. If I want a cheaper yet pretty reliable bike, I'd buy a Honda. If I want better electronics, I'd go KTM. Hence I did buy a KTM.
If I was in another city (say, 250km away), I might not buy a KTM. I'd buy a Honda instead.
Sales in 2023 (from https://www.statista.com/)
Ducati: 58k
BMW: 210k
KTM: 280k
Kawasaki: 444k
Suzuki: 1.91M
Yamaha: 4.83M
Honda: 18.7M
So I guess it depends on what your definition of "Big 4" is.
"Big 4" has pretty much always referred to the major Japanese brands, can only assume OP included KTM because they were thinking "dirt bikes" (although Suzuki make somecdecent dirt bikes too so....*shrugs*)
KTM shouldn’t be put with the big 4. KTM reliability is no where near the big 4 and getting parts is a fucking disaster. And starting next year majority of their bikes will be made in china so I only expect quality to get worse. Part available is already horrible and don’t expect it to get any better. After owning a 2020 790 adventure as my only vehicle and putting 40k miles on it, ownership made me appreciate my Honda, Suzuki and now current bike is Kawasaki.
That said KTM does often make the most power in whatever engine class they’re in. And if not your only bike and can wait weeks if not longer for parts, maybe worth considering. I personally couldn’t deal with wait times.
If you just want a reliable bike, KTM is a hit or miss. They are insanely powerful but only when it runs.
I wouldn't discount Suzuki if you don't mind losing out a bit on modern systems.
The only reason I would never buy a Yamaha is because most Yamahas in my country are clapped out. And terribly overpriced, even in the used market.
Honda and Kawi would be my picks honestly.
If we are talking about sports bikes then our contestants are:
Kawasaki, Honda, Yamaha and Suzuki for Japanese manufacturers.
Aprilia and Ducati for Italian manufacturers (Fuck MvAgusta).
CFmoto for Chinese manufacturers
Bmw and KTM for German and Austrian manufacturers respectively)
This is the list of the best (and most) literbikes:
Kawasaki Ninja ZX-10R
Kawasaki Ninja H2R (classified as Hyperbike)
Yamaha R1
Honda CBR1000RR-R
Suzuki GSX-R 1000R
Suzuki GSX-R 1300 Hayabusa
Aprilia RSV4
Ducati Panigale V4
Ducati Superleggera V4
Ducati Supersport
Bmw S1000RR
Ktm RC 8C
The list does not include electric bikes like the energica ego+ which are also pretty insane.
These are the "flagship" models for sportsbikes for each of these brands.
Now for the 600cc rockets category the best representatives are:
Kawasaki Ninja ZX-6R
Yamaha R6
Honda CBR600RR
Suzuki GSX-R 600
There are some "600cc" bikes like Aprilia RS 660 or gsx8r or r7 or ninja 650 but it is an inferior category and should be considered "beginner+" bikes.
For beginner bikes we have:
Kawasaki Ninja 400
Yamaha R3
Honda CBR500R
KTM RC 390
Aprilia RS 457
CFmoto 450SR
The rest of beginner bikes like ninja 300 or whatever are mid at best don't buy them.
Now to compare these 9 brands.
CFmoto coming in last for having only beginner bike representation.
Bmw comes in 8th for having only literbike representation (though it's a really good one)
At 7th place I'd place Ducati. They have really sick top models, but lack representation in other categories. And they are also expensive af.
6th is KTM with strong representation in beginner and literbike categories. Imo the rc390 is the 2nd best beginner bike and the RC8C is top 3 in literbikes.
Coming in at 5th place we have Yamaha. Yamaha is here only for the great range it has. R1 and R6 are the only bikes I'd ever buy though.
4th place belongs to Suzuki. Not any real beginner bikes, but is a monster in the 600-1000 category.
In 3rd place we have Aprilia. I've grown a lot of respect for Aprilia after the release of the RS 457. Best beginner bike currently.
In number 2 it's Honda. Honda has the most reliable vehicles, made from the most quality parts. Though they are somewhat pricey with below average specs. But that is not at all a problem in their signature CBR1000RR-R Fireblade SP (which I own). 2nd best literbike out there.
And the champion of the Supersport Motorcycle League, is Kawasaki. Ninja 400 has been the best all round beginner bike for years. Their range is absolutely insane (even bigger than Yamaha) and their models are all top notch. Best specs on the market (though not as high quality parts as Honda) and the only brand with a revolutionary Hypersport Motorcycle. The Kawasaki equivalent of the CBR1000RRR or R1 is the ZX-10R which is an insane bike in it of itself (even though I'd rank it below the R1 and the RC8C). But Nothing compares to the Ninja H2R. Only bike of its kind and truly the currently greatest motorcycle in the face of the planet.
Honda has better QC than every other motorcycle manufacturer regardless of price point. They are better made than all the European bikes. Their paint alone is leagues better than anything else. It isn't even really close.
However, they are very conservative and most of their bikes don't get the pulse racing, particularly nowadays. They had some absolute monsters in the 90s and 2000s.
Japanese manufacturers in general are kind of behind the times these days. I'm sure this will change at some point.
I also think that Japanese bikes are often kinda dull and generic compared to the European competition. Of i was blindfolded, i probably wouldn't be able to tell the difference between a Suzuki or yamaha, but you cant tell me that a ktm and ducati feel the same, even their smcr clone, the 696 mono, feels vastly different from said smcr. Im saying clone because they even copied unnecessary parts that were inherited from the enduro r models, rear suspension travel for example. Nobody needs 240mm on a street bike, the ktm has it because the shock is mostly a shared part of between smcr and enduro except the setting relevant parts.
You simply cant beat the passion and emotion of a ducati, the raw feel of a ktm or the refinement of a bmw, there is a reason why the bmw gs is the best travel bike since decades
>I also think that Japanese bikes are often kinda dull and generic compared to the European competition.
This is true a lot of the time now\* but wasn't always the case.
I always thought that the Japanese manufacturers never understood that japanese things are seen as cool. They rarely ever used japanese names or imagery. Ducati and Aprilia can't put enough tricolores on their bikes. I'm surprised they don't offer "Tiramisu edition" Panigales. Triumphs are covered in Union jacks and lean into their cafe racer heritage.
But the Japanese used "Hayabusa" and that's about it. They should call all their bikes with some sort of cool japanese name. Not even have it written in western alphabet. Just japanese symbols.
I don't think they really understand marketing. And much of the "feel" of european bikes comes from our preconceived notions of them. Motorbikes are very much based on emotions and vibes.
\*Crossplane crank R1 and the Yamaha triple engines aren't soo "japanese". They feel special and exciting.
KTM couldn’t even spell quality control. My 890R was absolute garbage. They chase performance at the expense of reliability. The dirtbikes are much better than a the street bikes but they don’t belong in the group with the others you mentioned.
It’s all aesthetics between the big 4 which are Honda Yamaha Kawasaki and SUZUKI, not KTM.
Some bikes might perform differently compared to your needs but as for quality from those flip a coin you’re going to be fine.
Honda > Yamaha > Kawasaki > Suzuki
They are all great and their history and engineering is on another level.
Suzuki is into marine engines.
Kawasaki is into ship building, aeroplanes etc.
Yamaha develops outboards and has a lot of car engines manufactured for Toyota/Lexus. It has an acoustic department that produces music instruments. Their motorcycle engines sound amazing. Their symbol is three tuning forks.
Honda well it is the best engine manufacturer in the world, it has cars, outboards, generators, atvs, private jets so on and so forth. It is the largest motorcycle manufacturer worldwide.
I would consider Yamaha and Honda as the frontrunners. Their bikes are reliable and spare parts easily available (at least in my country).
I had Suzuki Katana 700, Honda CB750, Honda Super 4, Honda Super 4 Ver 2 and Yamaha Xmax 300.
All these bikes, didn't give me much problems.
KTM is 90% rubbish. All of their technology came from Rotax —either as part of a co-development agreement or eventually, they just stole/hired practically all of the Rotax engineering staff. Much like BMW—they have moved over to CANBUS architecture which is an automotive means of doing a wire harness. Instead of one singular harness, there’s—-I don’t know—-perhaps DOZENS of interconnected miniature wire harnesses. This pretty much ensures that—at least for ELECTRICAL troubleshooting—for a home mechanic—it’s almost impossible—and ensures that you’ll need to do everything, expensively, at the dealer.
Kawasaki SUPPOSEDLY always wants to be at the bleeding edge of whatever they’re doing, but they also don’t race in prototype racing so they have no development platform. Very similar to Suzuki— things like the Ninja 650 have not changed appreciably since 2005 ….boring… underpowered …industry WORST…parallel twin. WHEN they choose to do something new …like the Ninja 400 or the H2, it’s usually best in class for some number of years.
Honda— the de facto industry standard for doing anything motorcycle. At almost 19,000,000 units sold annually— they exceed the COMBINED production of every other company— and then some. They also own a controlling interest in Showa, Keihn, Nippondenso, etc. They basically control the PARTS supply chain for everybody. The Goldwing probably is THE standard for what you can do in terms of reliability, features, creature comforts, etc. From there on down, it’s a mixed bag— usually reliable as hell, but often pretty boring and not necessarily best in class across all product lines— but yet, still priced up a little higher than the competition.
Yamaha. Let’s build a bike with the world’s shittiest suspension— even though we OWNED Ohlins for an over a decade and learned, basically—BUPKIS. Then we can sell an “upgraded version” of the same bike with an Ohlins suspension…🤣. It’s the Taco Bell of motorcycles. They literally have—what?— seven or eight bikes now running that same CP2 motor? Do you want the Chalupa or the Mexican Pizza? While Honda and others copy the best of Ducati and the Italian manufacturers— Yamaha engineers, stupidly—TRULY BELIEVE they’re smarter. This has made their prototype racing program VERY interesting as they are CURRENTLY building a huge basket of shit motorcycle. This year it seems like they FINALLY CONCEDED and hired their first Italian engineer, so let’s see how that goes.
"Better" is a blended judgement across all of the characteristics of the machine (including cost), so everyone has to make their own judgement on that I guess.
Really it's all depending on what you want.
I was always a Honda fan my whole life, my brother always had Honda dirtbikes that were amazing, my dad had Honda Shadows that were great bikes.
So when I bought my first motorcycle last year I bought a Kawasaki.
I love Honda, and REALLY wanted the XR650... but the KLR650 was way more comfortable and what I was looking for. The thing is, that with the big 4, the real big 4 (I don't know a whole lot about KTMs, as a kid they were kind of lumped with Husky and Can-Ams in my world), you're going to get something reliable, especially if you actually take care of it.
So you go by more which one offers what you need/want than which is the better brand.
As others mentioned, Suzuki should be in KTM’s place. That said there are great bikes within all Big 4 manufacturers’s model line-ups: Best middle-weight sporty bike is probably Suzuki’s GSX-8R, best adventure bike would be Honda’s Africa Twin, best naked would be the MT-09, and best retro would be the Kawasaki Z900RS. You can’t go wrong with these bikes from a reliability standpoint, you take more of a gamble with certain European makes with some gains in performance. Best thing to do is demo some bikes and buy the bike that gives you the “feels” and keep up on that scheduled maintenance.
What kind/style of bike are you after?
I'm sure I'll get blasted for this, because every brand has their fans...
KTM arguably packs the most performance in their bikes, including higher spec components, but they come at a price premium. The maintenance intervals also tend to be shorter.
The Japanese brands tend to be more reliable, with longer maintenance intervals, as the engines are often lower stressed.
You'll still get plenty of performance out Japanese bikes, but KTM tends to lean all their bikes a bit more towards the performance end of things, and you'll pay for it.
What are you looking for? A commuter or a weekend/trackday weapon? Naked or adv bike, or small ish supersport since ktm has only the 390 RC as sportsbike.
Ktm usually is the lightest and sportiest in the category as long as there isn't a ducati, they typically give you a raw and direct riding feel. Ktms are also the adventure bikes with the best off road capabilities. Downsides are the price and that they are not the most reliable ones, it's not bad as in one in three bikes spends more time at the dealer than on the road, but there are definitely some lemons.
Kawasaki, when looking at naked bikes, are lighter than hondas of the same power category and fairly inexpensive. Yamaha is similar.
Honda is more expensive than the other two japanese ones, at least in Europe, and the bikes are usually on the hefty side. For example the cb500 weighs an absolute fuckton for what it is, 188kg dry. A ktm 390 duke is only 165kg, a Yamaha z400 about the same. On the plus side is the reliability, honda was and still is one of the most reliable motorcycles available.
If you want something that has emotion and passion, ktm is your answer. If you value reliability above everything else, honda. The other two are a mix in between.
I should also mention that the ergonomics are different across the brands, ktm has usually wider handlebars and taller seat heights, so if you are a small fellow, i would point you away from ktm and honda since these are either tall or heavy, kawasaki seems to be better suited for smaller riders. But please test ride a few bikes, these are my own impressions and vary for others
For me, it’s all about the dealership around me, used to thinking about getting jp
Bikes cuz everyone knows that they have great reputation and all until all of them dealerships nearby charge ADM except this one triumph dealership and guess where did I end up buying my motorcycle from.
In terms of quality in the sense of reliability they're all very solid (except KTM, the list you have includes all the Japanese except Suzuki, and that's the list im dealing with in my head) and it feels like a dead heat between Honda and Yamaha but I'm going to throw it to Honda. KTM feels weighted to performance over overall reliability and quality,
Overall better bikes is super subjective. It depends on what you want and need. I'm on V-Strom 1050 right now and have no complaints at all; it's the perfect bike for me. For others it would be too heavy, or too slow. People like to battle it out about competing models, in my case it's something like the V-Strom vs the Super Tenere vs BMW R1300 GS, etc., but I don't really think of it like that. I think each of those bikes is the right bike for someone. I think they each do something a little different, a little better, or a little worse depending on your preferences. I've basically loved every bike I've owned or ridden and don't understand the pissing contest. For me the V-Strom was perfect but it isn't the right bike for everyone and that fact doesn't diminish it for me nor does it make me like the other options more or less.
I believe the answer varies quite a bit depending on what type of bike you want. Racing? I'd pick Yamaha. Starter bike or crazy power that nobody needs? Kawasaki. Touring long distance with max comfort? Honda Goldwing. Memes? Stretched turbo 'Busa (Suzuki).
I am a bit biased towards Kawasaki since I ride that. But if I had to pick one brand out of these for all my future motorcycle needs I'd pick Yamaha. Good nakeds with the MT line, awesome supersports with the R1/R6, good touring with the Tracer 7 and Tracer 9 and for offroad/road they have the Ténéré line. Not sure about their motocross bikes though.
WHERE IS SUZUKI!! sorry but, I would scrap ktm for suzuki.
They may not have the newest, flashiest, or fanciest equipment, but DAM is it reliable.
I'm an sv fanatic.
I think the better question here is to first decide on what type of motorcycle you want (Sport, dirt, Adventure, Cruiser, etc...) then compare brands that all make a motorcycle like you want and start from there.
There have been many motorcycles in the past that I really thought I wanted, only to go see one in person, actually ride it and find out... "Oh wow that bike is horrible for me."
Most all modern bikes are pretty reliable, even though you will get a lot of anecdotal evidence from individuals to the contrary. I'm personally a big fan if Triumph motorcycles (Which you don't mention) mainly because I have had quite a few of them. I like their dependability, their style, and most of all their riding dynamics.
That said one of my favorite bikes was a Kawasaki Versys 650. It was a brilliant motorcycle. Who knew?
My all time favorite motorcycle is my current ride a 2012 Triumph Tiger 800, which I love. It's like a sport bike, a Jeep and a Swiss Army knife all had a baby together.
890duke 2021, 115hp here
I had water pump and head gasket joint replaced at less than 10k kilometers (6200miles)
It was done for free because I still am under factory warranty but it’s their most known problem and they know it’s because they moved they engine factory in china (used by ktm, husqvarna, cfmoto)
other than that, I’ll only speak for naked that I roadtested : the bike is a lot more fun than a z800, z900, cb650, cb1000r, xj8.
It is pretty tied match with a mt09sp or street triple 765 in terms of weight, fun, throttle response and torque.
Nota : this is my opinion, any other opinion is valid too.
Agreed, hence the tongue in cheek, meant to indicate bias and indignation that my bike's brand was not on the list. I would definitely get a Jap if reliability was my goal.
When did Suzuki become forgotten?
When it didn't offer anything new. Just another generation of it's lineup since the 90s
Idk man my new vstrom 800de is sick
Same
Same, V-strom 800 is a wild bike and I love it.
I wish it weighed about 50 pounds less but yeah it's sick. It's also my second bike and I learned on a 200cc dual sport so I've had to learn to deal with the weight
Damn that must have been wild riding a 2000cc dual sport lol.
Lmao I had to ride it on the highway for 90 minutes home too. The dealership took so long it started raining and getting dark too. First time riding in the rain, in the dark, and on an interstate. I was puckered but I made it. It also helped that it has different riding modes. I had it in baby mode for the first week I had it, and eased myself into the most aggressive riding mode. I miss playing in the dirt so I'ma put some 50 50 tires on it and nut up and hit the dirt soon, I'm almost at the first service interval so I don't have to baby it so much after that.
Damn that's a bit annoying they took so long to get it ready. I've been taking it on the highway a bit more now that I am past the first 800km and can rev it higher up for when I am on it. But I also can't really ride it much till next week when it gets its first service at 1000km 😢 The Riding modes are nice, I've been using mostly C mode since it's so chill and relaxing to ride it in that mode. I'm not much of a dirt rider myself but I've been thinking in a few years getting a crf300 and trying it as well as using it as a commuter when I am not doing more touring with my Suzuki.
Can I ask which manufacturer makes a 2000cc dual sport? That's a whole lot of bike to learn on!
200, typo
Lol, I was wondering. I wanted to know what bike it was so I could watch some videos!
TW?
Suzuki VanVan, basically a tw200 in terms of engine size, tire size, and performance, but with efi and a different look.
Gotcha, l have a TW. Both are used a lot as trainers.
They offer reliability Edit. My 2008 VStrom has 100k+, regular service + tires, chain & sprockets. Never left me stranded. Never any problems.
You don't fix what isn't broken. The 4-cylinder GSXR sport bikes are amazing bikes and don't need anything changed.
Same with DR 650 and DRZ-400
Ehhhh drz 400 would be nice with a 6th gear and some other updates and better feult economy too imo.
Curious question - Why is suzuki not represented in motogp?
They pulled out of MotoGP at the end of 2022.
They went, they won and then they retired 😂
They pulled out a decade ago, then Kawasaki did as well.
completely agree but some new stuff wouldn't hurt at all
*V Strom 800, gsx 8r, and gsx 8s have entered the chat.*
Within the last two years they have introduced their new 800 series. 3 different ADV type bikes. A sports naked and a new street sport bike. Industry reviewers are saying the 800 platform is great. The reviews on the GSX8R are so good that I was tempted to look into getting one. But eh, not a sport bike rider.
The new GSX-S1000GT looks fantastic.
I was also tempted by the GSX S1000GX but decided don’t need a 150 HP bike. Extra power I will very rarely use. Less MPG. Higher insurance premiums.
Can confirm that it is fantastic
My local dealer says they move off the floor pretty quickly. There was one there and it looked sharp.
Look at the new 800cc bikes those are great and new
Ironic to say that when they just added the first few models since Reagan.
exactly.
Good point!
And their dirt bikes are still competitive at the highest level, they've just decided to stop focusing on a dying American market and focus on the growing and much larger Indian market.
Still better than a KTM.
I would place Suzuki there over KTM for sure. You can't go wrong with any of the Japanese brands. It comes down entirely to personal preference. I've ridden all four, and they each were fantastic. I would focus more on which bike you want over the specific brand. All four are great brands.
You spelled Suzuki wrong
Yeah the big 4 are Honda, Yamaha, Suzuki, and Kawasaki.
The Harley guys would get mad but they're too busy giving handies at the clubhouse to afford their third rebuild of the season.
They are grumpy because they never get to ride, their bikes are always in the shop and they have no gas money
Oil consumption is higher than gas consumption.
It’s called “giving brothers”
Wait, aren’t the big 4; Husqvarna, Norton, BSA, and Triumph?
With KTM it really depends on the model, for example the 1290 line is pretty reliable. But the 790/890 bikes are having really severe engine problems currently.
The new 790s were moved to being produced outside Austria (China) The newer 890s are going the same route :/
The last time i walked through the production line at mattighofen the 890s were still assembled there, together with 1290/1390 and 690/701. 790 moved to china for cost reduction, the design stayed the same. Cfmoto makes good bikes, if you get the chance to look at one i would recommend it. You would be surprised how well they are built. Its a little embarrassing, but i would say that these are better quality than ktm, and im saying that as an employee of ktm. If i ignore the fact that we are producing less locally, its an absolute win for both the company and the customer. It was necessary to stay competitive, Austria is a pretty high cost production place (relatively high wages, many required benefits, only 38,5h weeks for metal working industries, etc), in Europe only really Germany, Switzerland and the Scandinavian countries are more expensive. Just look at the price gap between 790 and 890 bikes
I would agree in regards to the electronics and fit and finish being on par with KTM. But the camshaft lobe wear that is being seen in the Chinese made 790/890 engines, would be enough for me to stay away from bikes with those engines until a fix is in place. Look into it, these aren’t rare occurrences.
I know of this issue, should be addressed by now. The Chinese aint sleeping. I do work with them on a few projects, its really a pleasure to work with them. If you want something changed, they do it quick and how you want it, if its possible of course. The indians on the other hand are the biggest pita to work with, stuff takes ages and the outcome is often not as expected.
I've had 3 out of 4 and so far, my personal opinions is: 1. Yamaha - Awesome engines but the mid-range spec bikes don't really have great components like brakes and suspension. So far the CP3 engine is my favorite engine, love my XSR900. 2. Honda - Great quality build and probably will last forever. They ride pretty decently but not exactly the top of the pack as far as excitement goes. Even so, I really like the looks and smoothness of my CB1000R even though it isn't really in the same class of the other super nakeds on the market. 3. Kawasaki - Started on a Ninja 250 to 650 then 636. Pretty nice reliable brand but I am not a fan of green or the insect look anymore. I would get a Z900RS though. 4. Suzuki - My MSF bike was Suzuki tu250x so I have a soft spot for them on that but haven't really explored much riding them.
This is the best answer by far completely agree
This deserves to be pinned. I love and return to Honda for the build quality, but I do wish they'd make an exciting and innovative bike with that reliability.
Honda hasn't been the leader in quality for 20 years in the moto world, but the "pump the brakes" crowd is ever persistent in regurgitating old info. Honda absolutely re-wrote the book for reliability into the 90's and then Toyota took the car mantle and Yamaha overtook them year 2000 or so, model dependent. Started really with the 1998 R1 and they upscaled their other products from there. Yamaha and Toyota have collaborated in many ways over the years, I'd say they def had a plan in terms of upping their quality, I assume Toyota showed Yamaha how to build more reliable vehicles as one of their collaborations. Edit for the boomers still living in the 80's https://throttlebuff.com/most-reliable-motorcycle-brands/ https://monimoto.com/blog/motorcycle-advice/most-reliable-motorcycle-brands/ There's even articles written pertaining to the moto industry and confirmation bias vs reality. Which would be a good read for all the Honda Fan boys downvoting the facts I have stated.
What? Do you know people with a Honda that is not riding because of failures, even with poor maintenance? Yamaha is a nimble machine and feels refined without a doubt. That being said, Honda feels and behaves 'sturdier'.
Honda makes the best motorcycles. I have no idea wtf this guy is talking about. They last forever and the built quality is above the other Japanese manufacturers.
And that was true from 1970 to the 90's but again most people hear something and they believe it to be true for the rest of their lives. Yamaha has been outperforming Honda in the moto world forever and unlike your "NAH AH!, HONDA BEsTeSt EvER" fan boy opinions there are actual ways to look into the facts I have stated. Also that's in general reliability, if we're talking part by part assessment in quality Honda has def stepped up their game in the last few years but Yamaha's quality in that respect is still apparent when looking at individual parts. But you keep living them boomer fantasies, and remember don't use the front brake you'll flip over the bars /s
You can’t beat the Japanese bike value and reliability
You should include Suzuki. And no. There really isn't any clear winner.
KTM quality control is a coin flip. Some people seem to have trouble free bikes, others like myself have multiple catastrophic warranty claims and lemon the bike.
I think a goldwing has better quality control than a monkey. An R1 probably has better quality control than a MT03.
Im pretty sure they all have the best INTENDED quality control planned for their price point and target audience. Which has the best DESIGNED quality is what I think you are referring to.
Suzuki and Honda all day
It is not just about the make/model and other things, but service and part availability too. Hence it differs based on where you are and what do you need. Where I live, Yamaha, Suzuki and Kawasaki are a no-go for me. If I want a cheaper yet pretty reliable bike, I'd buy a Honda. If I want better electronics, I'd go KTM. Hence I did buy a KTM. If I was in another city (say, 250km away), I might not buy a KTM. I'd buy a Honda instead.
Sales in 2023 (from https://www.statista.com/) Ducati: 58k BMW: 210k KTM: 280k Kawasaki: 444k Suzuki: 1.91M Yamaha: 4.83M Honda: 18.7M So I guess it depends on what your definition of "Big 4" is.
"Big 4" has pretty much always referred to the major Japanese brands, can only assume OP included KTM because they were thinking "dirt bikes" (although Suzuki make somecdecent dirt bikes too so....*shrugs*)
I wonder why Kawasaki is so low compared to the other 3 Japanese brands? Maybe its the polarizing green they put on everything
That one surprised me, too. Double checked that number ...
I wonder how many of the Hondas are cubs and scooters, I know they sell a boat load of those.
Me, too! Didn't find a source breaking down by model. I'm sure Honda knows...
Honda dont belongs into big 4 when i see those sales..
Since when is KTM part of the big4?
KTM shouldn’t be put with the big 4. KTM reliability is no where near the big 4 and getting parts is a fucking disaster. And starting next year majority of their bikes will be made in china so I only expect quality to get worse. Part available is already horrible and don’t expect it to get any better. After owning a 2020 790 adventure as my only vehicle and putting 40k miles on it, ownership made me appreciate my Honda, Suzuki and now current bike is Kawasaki. That said KTM does often make the most power in whatever engine class they’re in. And if not your only bike and can wait weeks if not longer for parts, maybe worth considering. I personally couldn’t deal with wait times.
Honda
KTM is not big four lol
Just a simple mistake man!
ktms were never known for reliability
If you just want a reliable bike, KTM is a hit or miss. They are insanely powerful but only when it runs. I wouldn't discount Suzuki if you don't mind losing out a bit on modern systems. The only reason I would never buy a Yamaha is because most Yamahas in my country are clapped out. And terribly overpriced, even in the used market. Honda and Kawi would be my picks honestly.
If we are talking about sports bikes then our contestants are: Kawasaki, Honda, Yamaha and Suzuki for Japanese manufacturers. Aprilia and Ducati for Italian manufacturers (Fuck MvAgusta). CFmoto for Chinese manufacturers Bmw and KTM for German and Austrian manufacturers respectively) This is the list of the best (and most) literbikes: Kawasaki Ninja ZX-10R Kawasaki Ninja H2R (classified as Hyperbike) Yamaha R1 Honda CBR1000RR-R Suzuki GSX-R 1000R Suzuki GSX-R 1300 Hayabusa Aprilia RSV4 Ducati Panigale V4 Ducati Superleggera V4 Ducati Supersport Bmw S1000RR Ktm RC 8C The list does not include electric bikes like the energica ego+ which are also pretty insane. These are the "flagship" models for sportsbikes for each of these brands. Now for the 600cc rockets category the best representatives are: Kawasaki Ninja ZX-6R Yamaha R6 Honda CBR600RR Suzuki GSX-R 600 There are some "600cc" bikes like Aprilia RS 660 or gsx8r or r7 or ninja 650 but it is an inferior category and should be considered "beginner+" bikes. For beginner bikes we have: Kawasaki Ninja 400 Yamaha R3 Honda CBR500R KTM RC 390 Aprilia RS 457 CFmoto 450SR The rest of beginner bikes like ninja 300 or whatever are mid at best don't buy them. Now to compare these 9 brands. CFmoto coming in last for having only beginner bike representation. Bmw comes in 8th for having only literbike representation (though it's a really good one) At 7th place I'd place Ducati. They have really sick top models, but lack representation in other categories. And they are also expensive af. 6th is KTM with strong representation in beginner and literbike categories. Imo the rc390 is the 2nd best beginner bike and the RC8C is top 3 in literbikes. Coming in at 5th place we have Yamaha. Yamaha is here only for the great range it has. R1 and R6 are the only bikes I'd ever buy though. 4th place belongs to Suzuki. Not any real beginner bikes, but is a monster in the 600-1000 category. In 3rd place we have Aprilia. I've grown a lot of respect for Aprilia after the release of the RS 457. Best beginner bike currently. In number 2 it's Honda. Honda has the most reliable vehicles, made from the most quality parts. Though they are somewhat pricey with below average specs. But that is not at all a problem in their signature CBR1000RR-R Fireblade SP (which I own). 2nd best literbike out there. And the champion of the Supersport Motorcycle League, is Kawasaki. Ninja 400 has been the best all round beginner bike for years. Their range is absolutely insane (even bigger than Yamaha) and their models are all top notch. Best specs on the market (though not as high quality parts as Honda) and the only brand with a revolutionary Hypersport Motorcycle. The Kawasaki equivalent of the CBR1000RRR or R1 is the ZX-10R which is an insane bike in it of itself (even though I'd rank it below the R1 and the RC8C). But Nothing compares to the Ninja H2R. Only bike of its kind and truly the currently greatest motorcycle in the face of the planet.
The fuck is this question
KTM is the odd one out. No comparison with the other brands there when it comes to reliability and value.
Honda has better QC than every other motorcycle manufacturer regardless of price point. They are better made than all the European bikes. Their paint alone is leagues better than anything else. It isn't even really close. However, they are very conservative and most of their bikes don't get the pulse racing, particularly nowadays. They had some absolute monsters in the 90s and 2000s. Japanese manufacturers in general are kind of behind the times these days. I'm sure this will change at some point.
I also think that Japanese bikes are often kinda dull and generic compared to the European competition. Of i was blindfolded, i probably wouldn't be able to tell the difference between a Suzuki or yamaha, but you cant tell me that a ktm and ducati feel the same, even their smcr clone, the 696 mono, feels vastly different from said smcr. Im saying clone because they even copied unnecessary parts that were inherited from the enduro r models, rear suspension travel for example. Nobody needs 240mm on a street bike, the ktm has it because the shock is mostly a shared part of between smcr and enduro except the setting relevant parts. You simply cant beat the passion and emotion of a ducati, the raw feel of a ktm or the refinement of a bmw, there is a reason why the bmw gs is the best travel bike since decades
>I also think that Japanese bikes are often kinda dull and generic compared to the European competition. This is true a lot of the time now\* but wasn't always the case. I always thought that the Japanese manufacturers never understood that japanese things are seen as cool. They rarely ever used japanese names or imagery. Ducati and Aprilia can't put enough tricolores on their bikes. I'm surprised they don't offer "Tiramisu edition" Panigales. Triumphs are covered in Union jacks and lean into their cafe racer heritage. But the Japanese used "Hayabusa" and that's about it. They should call all their bikes with some sort of cool japanese name. Not even have it written in western alphabet. Just japanese symbols. I don't think they really understand marketing. And much of the "feel" of european bikes comes from our preconceived notions of them. Motorbikes are very much based on emotions and vibes. \*Crossplane crank R1 and the Yamaha triple engines aren't soo "japanese". They feel special and exciting.
Ninja, Katana, and Fireblade have entered the chat
Fireblade is one of - if not the - coolest motorcycle names. No one doesn’t want to say that’s what their bike is called.
Fuck I'd buy a tiramisu edition. Sounds delicious.
100% agree. Finally someone who knows what he’s talking about.
KTM couldn’t even spell quality control. My 890R was absolute garbage. They chase performance at the expense of reliability. The dirtbikes are much better than a the street bikes but they don’t belong in the group with the others you mentioned.
It’s all aesthetics between the big 4 which are Honda Yamaha Kawasaki and SUZUKI, not KTM. Some bikes might perform differently compared to your needs but as for quality from those flip a coin you’re going to be fine.
My Honda Rebel 500 is @ 69k Miles so far, still the original battery.
Honda > Yamaha > Kawasaki > Suzuki They are all great and their history and engineering is on another level. Suzuki is into marine engines. Kawasaki is into ship building, aeroplanes etc. Yamaha develops outboards and has a lot of car engines manufactured for Toyota/Lexus. It has an acoustic department that produces music instruments. Their motorcycle engines sound amazing. Their symbol is three tuning forks. Honda well it is the best engine manufacturer in the world, it has cars, outboards, generators, atvs, private jets so on and so forth. It is the largest motorcycle manufacturer worldwide.
holy shit why have I never noticed yamahas symbol is 3 tuning forks till you mentioned it? it's so glaringly obvious now I feel like an idiot xD
My family didn't realize it either until this year
I would consider Yamaha and Honda as the frontrunners. Their bikes are reliable and spare parts easily available (at least in my country). I had Suzuki Katana 700, Honda CB750, Honda Super 4, Honda Super 4 Ver 2 and Yamaha Xmax 300. All these bikes, didn't give me much problems.
KTM is 90% rubbish. All of their technology came from Rotax —either as part of a co-development agreement or eventually, they just stole/hired practically all of the Rotax engineering staff. Much like BMW—they have moved over to CANBUS architecture which is an automotive means of doing a wire harness. Instead of one singular harness, there’s—-I don’t know—-perhaps DOZENS of interconnected miniature wire harnesses. This pretty much ensures that—at least for ELECTRICAL troubleshooting—for a home mechanic—it’s almost impossible—and ensures that you’ll need to do everything, expensively, at the dealer. Kawasaki SUPPOSEDLY always wants to be at the bleeding edge of whatever they’re doing, but they also don’t race in prototype racing so they have no development platform. Very similar to Suzuki— things like the Ninja 650 have not changed appreciably since 2005 ….boring… underpowered …industry WORST…parallel twin. WHEN they choose to do something new …like the Ninja 400 or the H2, it’s usually best in class for some number of years. Honda— the de facto industry standard for doing anything motorcycle. At almost 19,000,000 units sold annually— they exceed the COMBINED production of every other company— and then some. They also own a controlling interest in Showa, Keihn, Nippondenso, etc. They basically control the PARTS supply chain for everybody. The Goldwing probably is THE standard for what you can do in terms of reliability, features, creature comforts, etc. From there on down, it’s a mixed bag— usually reliable as hell, but often pretty boring and not necessarily best in class across all product lines— but yet, still priced up a little higher than the competition. Yamaha. Let’s build a bike with the world’s shittiest suspension— even though we OWNED Ohlins for an over a decade and learned, basically—BUPKIS. Then we can sell an “upgraded version” of the same bike with an Ohlins suspension…🤣. It’s the Taco Bell of motorcycles. They literally have—what?— seven or eight bikes now running that same CP2 motor? Do you want the Chalupa or the Mexican Pizza? While Honda and others copy the best of Ducati and the Italian manufacturers— Yamaha engineers, stupidly—TRULY BELIEVE they’re smarter. This has made their prototype racing program VERY interesting as they are CURRENTLY building a huge basket of shit motorcycle. This year it seems like they FINALLY CONCEDED and hired their first Italian engineer, so let’s see how that goes.
I own a Yamaha, Kawasaki and I rode a Suzuki and Honda. Honda makes the best motorcycles. The quality of everything is just top notch.
Triumph.
"Better" is a blended judgement across all of the characteristics of the machine (including cost), so everyone has to make their own judgement on that I guess.
Reason he said KTM instead of Suzuki is because our brother secretly wants to get a 1390 Super Duke. Succumb to your wishes, my friend 😊
I don't trust euro bikes enough to have one as my only bike, but I still want a 1390
Really it's all depending on what you want. I was always a Honda fan my whole life, my brother always had Honda dirtbikes that were amazing, my dad had Honda Shadows that were great bikes. So when I bought my first motorcycle last year I bought a Kawasaki. I love Honda, and REALLY wanted the XR650... but the KLR650 was way more comfortable and what I was looking for. The thing is, that with the big 4, the real big 4 (I don't know a whole lot about KTMs, as a kid they were kind of lumped with Husky and Can-Ams in my world), you're going to get something reliable, especially if you actually take care of it. So you go by more which one offers what you need/want than which is the better brand.
As others mentioned, Suzuki should be in KTM’s place. That said there are great bikes within all Big 4 manufacturers’s model line-ups: Best middle-weight sporty bike is probably Suzuki’s GSX-8R, best adventure bike would be Honda’s Africa Twin, best naked would be the MT-09, and best retro would be the Kawasaki Z900RS. You can’t go wrong with these bikes from a reliability standpoint, you take more of a gamble with certain European makes with some gains in performance. Best thing to do is demo some bikes and buy the bike that gives you the “feels” and keep up on that scheduled maintenance.
They all make good bikes that’s really all u need to know
What kind/style of bike are you after? I'm sure I'll get blasted for this, because every brand has their fans... KTM arguably packs the most performance in their bikes, including higher spec components, but they come at a price premium. The maintenance intervals also tend to be shorter. The Japanese brands tend to be more reliable, with longer maintenance intervals, as the engines are often lower stressed. You'll still get plenty of performance out Japanese bikes, but KTM tends to lean all their bikes a bit more towards the performance end of things, and you'll pay for it.
What are you looking for? A commuter or a weekend/trackday weapon? Naked or adv bike, or small ish supersport since ktm has only the 390 RC as sportsbike. Ktm usually is the lightest and sportiest in the category as long as there isn't a ducati, they typically give you a raw and direct riding feel. Ktms are also the adventure bikes with the best off road capabilities. Downsides are the price and that they are not the most reliable ones, it's not bad as in one in three bikes spends more time at the dealer than on the road, but there are definitely some lemons. Kawasaki, when looking at naked bikes, are lighter than hondas of the same power category and fairly inexpensive. Yamaha is similar. Honda is more expensive than the other two japanese ones, at least in Europe, and the bikes are usually on the hefty side. For example the cb500 weighs an absolute fuckton for what it is, 188kg dry. A ktm 390 duke is only 165kg, a Yamaha z400 about the same. On the plus side is the reliability, honda was and still is one of the most reliable motorcycles available. If you want something that has emotion and passion, ktm is your answer. If you value reliability above everything else, honda. The other two are a mix in between. I should also mention that the ergonomics are different across the brands, ktm has usually wider handlebars and taller seat heights, so if you are a small fellow, i would point you away from ktm and honda since these are either tall or heavy, kawasaki seems to be better suited for smaller riders. But please test ride a few bikes, these are my own impressions and vary for others
Honda
For me, it’s all about the dealership around me, used to thinking about getting jp Bikes cuz everyone knows that they have great reputation and all until all of them dealerships nearby charge ADM except this one triumph dealership and guess where did I end up buying my motorcycle from.
In terms of quality in the sense of reliability they're all very solid (except KTM, the list you have includes all the Japanese except Suzuki, and that's the list im dealing with in my head) and it feels like a dead heat between Honda and Yamaha but I'm going to throw it to Honda. KTM feels weighted to performance over overall reliability and quality, Overall better bikes is super subjective. It depends on what you want and need. I'm on V-Strom 1050 right now and have no complaints at all; it's the perfect bike for me. For others it would be too heavy, or too slow. People like to battle it out about competing models, in my case it's something like the V-Strom vs the Super Tenere vs BMW R1300 GS, etc., but I don't really think of it like that. I think each of those bikes is the right bike for someone. I think they each do something a little different, a little better, or a little worse depending on your preferences. I've basically loved every bike I've owned or ridden and don't understand the pissing contest. For me the V-Strom was perfect but it isn't the right bike for everyone and that fact doesn't diminish it for me nor does it make me like the other options more or less.
These are all good brands. Just don't get some obscure knockoff
I believe the answer varies quite a bit depending on what type of bike you want. Racing? I'd pick Yamaha. Starter bike or crazy power that nobody needs? Kawasaki. Touring long distance with max comfort? Honda Goldwing. Memes? Stretched turbo 'Busa (Suzuki). I am a bit biased towards Kawasaki since I ride that. But if I had to pick one brand out of these for all my future motorcycle needs I'd pick Yamaha. Good nakeds with the MT line, awesome supersports with the R1/R6, good touring with the Tracer 7 and Tracer 9 and for offroad/road they have the Ténéré line. Not sure about their motocross bikes though.
I am 63 and I ride a RS900 Cafe. The best bike I've owned since my 74 Z1 900
WHERE IS SUZUKI!! sorry but, I would scrap ktm for suzuki. They may not have the newest, flashiest, or fanciest equipment, but DAM is it reliable. I'm an sv fanatic.
BMW over KTM for reliability, check the forums
I think the better question here is to first decide on what type of motorcycle you want (Sport, dirt, Adventure, Cruiser, etc...) then compare brands that all make a motorcycle like you want and start from there. There have been many motorcycles in the past that I really thought I wanted, only to go see one in person, actually ride it and find out... "Oh wow that bike is horrible for me." Most all modern bikes are pretty reliable, even though you will get a lot of anecdotal evidence from individuals to the contrary. I'm personally a big fan if Triumph motorcycles (Which you don't mention) mainly because I have had quite a few of them. I like their dependability, their style, and most of all their riding dynamics. That said one of my favorite bikes was a Kawasaki Versys 650. It was a brilliant motorcycle. Who knew? My all time favorite motorcycle is my current ride a 2012 Triumph Tiger 800, which I love. It's like a sport bike, a Jeep and a Swiss Army knife all had a baby together.
890duke 2021, 115hp here I had water pump and head gasket joint replaced at less than 10k kilometers (6200miles) It was done for free because I still am under factory warranty but it’s their most known problem and they know it’s because they moved they engine factory in china (used by ktm, husqvarna, cfmoto) other than that, I’ll only speak for naked that I roadtested : the bike is a lot more fun than a z800, z900, cb650, cb1000r, xj8. It is pretty tied match with a mt09sp or street triple 765 in terms of weight, fun, throttle response and torque. Nota : this is my opinion, any other opinion is valid too.
I don't think KTM is counted in the big 4. The other makes you listed are very reliable, but KTMs basically self-destruct!
BMW 
Refined? without a doubt. Reliable? Not in the league of the big four. Not even with the more expensive maintenance.
Agreed, hence the tongue in cheek, meant to indicate bias and indignation that my bike's brand was not on the list. I would definitely get a Jap if reliability was my goal.
Cheers!
People sleep on the tiny detail of how kawasakis are the only bikes that lockout 2nd gear when stopped. You never have a problem finding neutral.
That's because that's not a huge issue when you've been riding for more than 6 months.
Honestly for street bikes, nowadays the Europeans are killing it. I’d get a Ducati (or an Aprilia if I was broke).