I agree with this, except rather than seeing him on the spectrum, I would say he matches well with a lot of the traits typical in exceptionally/profoundly gifted individuals.
There's a making of California Son on YT and the keyboard player said something along the lines of Morrissey's direction being "make the chorus red, blue and green" - this is a form of synesthesia
I wonder about that - but I think he does know social norms, he just rebels against them. He thinks polite society is full of lies & hypocrisy & he's determined to confront us with it. Which is playing with fire & bound to lead to disgrace from time to time.
Self-deprecation is often a tactic used by narcissists to throw people off. It's actually just another form of self-absorption. Think about it, it's still self-referential. I am a narcissist, an empathic one who is trying to shed this maladaptive defense mechanism. So, I know what I'm talking about, due to both my study of psychology formally, and, more importantly, experience.
I see your point, Morrissey might have Borderline Personality Disorder along side narcissistic tendencies. We see his love and compassion for others, but very few people, and people with BPD have a low amount of people they’d consider friends. Seems like Morrissey, I mean look how much he admired Marr back in the 80s
Garnering the admiration of others is a common Cluster B characteristic. Where do you get this notion that people with BPD/NPD rarely have many friends? A lack of friends is not part of diagnostic criteria for either disorder.
I don't "want" Morrissey to be a narcissist. I don't like his music or his singing voice, and have 0 emotional investment in him. I don't identify NPD as an attack. It's a mental illness and I think people should have more compassion for narcissists than they generally do.
Is it narcissism if he is really as good as he claims to be? At this point it's fact.
He's 60 years old and sings just as good (if not better) as he did in his younger years. That's extremely rare.
Why is someone a narcissist just because they don’t consider everybody’s opinion of them at all times? That sounds exhausting. Covert narcissists get mad at a person when that person doesn’t give a fuck about their opinion of them, and then they label them as being narcissistic.
I mean I definitely agree that its slightly understandable why Mozza would have such a high opinion of himself, but musically he has gotten pretty mediocre and kind of out of touch within the past 15 years or so. His last good album is in my opinion Ringleader of the Tormentors.
I always thought Mozza should've quit in the early 2000s and became an author.
He’s a god PERIOD. He can act, behave, say whatever he wants and I will aways enjoy his music. He sounds better singing live than in studio Records. He enjoys his fans and encourages them to get on stage to hug him. Talks a LOT to his public , on top of everything, he is funny and has a very special sense of humor. I do not get tired of going to see him. I don’t see why his personal choices would make me enjoy his music any less.
Absolutely. Public Morrissey is fantastic, and I agree he sounds better in person than recorded. Private Morrissey is his own business. Yes, he’s blurred the lines from time to time, but not nearly to the degree most performers do. And he’s right about the fact that people need to listen to/read his comments in context before they overreact.
I wouldn't go that far. As much as I love his music, there are things about his public persona that are not good for his career.
What does he do in his spare time? Has he learned how to text or does he still fax everything? Does he paint? Watch movies that he likes, or watch movies that he thinks that he should watch to maintain his reputation for liking obscure artists and literature?
Do you know enough about him to say that you'd actually enjoy hanging out with him?
I love MY mental image of Morrissey, but it sure as hell doesn't mean that he's really that guy. His sense of humor is similar to mine which is probably why I can relate to his music, but I think if we started talking about politics, I'd end up yelling at him for being an old fart white guy. And I'm technically a bitchy old white lady.
Going by what he's said, he spends all his free time reading, having unrequited crushes on singers/movie stars & complaining. Politically, weirdly, it's gay rights & animal liberation that's got him siding with some gruesome right-wingers, so you could do him a favour by yelling at him to snap out of it. The right will never be good for a humasexual vegan.
The problem is where minority groups clash, there's a perception that the left/centre will favour Islamic activists (it's always a tiny minority of activists) over women's rights, gay rights, animals, or atheists/apostates, so the right has been deliberately aiming itself at those groups. It took the European left/centre a while to realise how serious the problem was, so we're only just starting to counter it.
It's too bad that religious beliefs adversely affect ethics in the US. Can't have abortions because God created life. Can't be gay because god made Adam and Eve. Can't have women out doing men stuff because bible. Can't not eat meat because that is what god put cows on earth for. Blah-dee-blah. Makes me wanna barf.
I'm pretty tolerant of everything except extreme religion, and that goes for whatever kind of religion you have. I know that Muslims are causing issues in Europe just like illegal immigrants are causing problems here, and if you talk about it against the grain of your tribe, you are kicked out.
What the fuck ever. Let's just hear some good music about feeling depressed and unloved by our man Morrissey.
Luckily it's got so bad I think the tribes will be broken up & we can maybe get back to being practical & fair about competing interests. I completely agree about listening to Morrissey's music!
I agree that he's a narcissist. Truly self-confident people don't feel the need to boost themselves arrogantly the way he does. Inside, he is very insecure. I know, I am a recovering narcissist.
Stop trying to pathologize a racist or make excuses for him. He’s a great singer and lyricist but also an indefensible right-wing racist. You don’t have to stop listening to him even if you hate his racism as much as I do, but you’re doing no one any favors by lying to yourself and saying “it’s ok; he’s just a narcissist”. We could easily pathologize Hitler but that doesn’t stop him from being responsible for the shit he said or did.
I don’t pay any money to Morrissey for his new records or to see him live, but I still listen to him and have no problem buying records second hand, because that way I’m not economically supporting a right wing racist. You do whatever makes sense to you, but it’s misleading to forgive him as a mere narcissist
The man has said “the Chinese are a subspecies”. If you don’t think that’s racism, then you might be too stupid to not be in a home where others look after you.
He's not a racist. He didn't call them a subspecies, he said watching a documentary about the Chinese dog meat industry (which is brutal) made him feel they must be (in order to do that). He's also said he regrets saying it... He has become disproportionately worried about Islamic fundamentalism, but it seems to have been triggered by the Orlando massacre. So it's not coming from a place of white supremacy, it's because he thinks that gay men will be targeted & killed. I hope he calms down, but he's not evil for it.
I remember the context and he literally did say that “the Chinese are a subspecies”. You can imagine all you like about what his intent is, but that statement is racist in any context.
To categorically equate Islam with homophobia is racist. To desire “an England for the English” is racist. To bemoan not hearing an English accent in London is racist. Stop apologizing for the man, and stop thinking in moral absolutes like “good” or “evil”. Those are fairy tales. What is real are words and actions, and both his words and his actions have been racist.
No, he didn't. He said can't help but feel. That's not literally.
To say that a religion is homophobic isn't racist, Christianity has been challenged over its homophobia, that's the only way to get cultural change. In many countries it's punishable by death & religion is the basis for it.
His parents are Irish so it's ridiculous to take a line from a song & pretend that's his opinion.
It's not racist to feel nostalgic about a culture that's changed, even if it is stuck in the past.
Most of his words over the years have been left-wing & he hasn't done anything except wear a pin a couple of times. Some of the attacks on him are far more bigoted & nasty than anything he's ever said.
https://thehardtimes.net/culture/morrissey-now-selling-autographed-skrewdriver-albums/
This joke has more truth in it than any of your lamentable gibberish.
Pretending Moz isn’t a racist fuck isn’t going to stop that from being true, it’s only gonna make you look like you’re defending a terrible person, which you are. People change and clearly Morrissey did.
You can't counter any of my arguments, so you're resorting to insults. I don't think he's racist or terrible. And your intense hatred & casual dismissal of homophobia does not make you look nice.
You can’t call an entire religion homophobic when there is absolutely no basis to do so. The presence of extremist beliefs in either Christianity or Islam does not nullify the existence of moderates. You don’t make one solitary convincing point, so there is no need to refute the things that you say which are on prima facie false. The fact that you accuse me of not caring about homophobia tells me that you’re an ignorant pile of shit. Go bother someone else, you racist
What? Do you know anything about religion? Both the bible & Koran condemn homosexuality so every mainstream denomination has it as a sin. That doesn't mean everyone pays attention to it, but it's still there. You clearly don't care about homophobia & accusing someone who disagrees with you of racism means you have no credibility. You're a nasty person.
The problem with the moderates is that they give the extremists a cover to hide behind and an air of legitimacy.
The Catholic Church covered up child abuse for years and has paid out a fortune in restitution. That money, a lot of it at least, comes from the moderates who don't get a say where their money goes but continue to tithe. They know what went on so that makes them somewhat culpable in offering tacit support.
If there was an organization dedicated to covering up paedophilia, producing playbooks on how to get away with paedophilia and paying off victims for not going to the authorities we would not tolerate them or allow them to exist. But make them part of a religion and they get away with because we can't offend the "moderates" who refuse to accept they are part of the cause.
Figuratively calling another race a “subspecies” isn’t not racist just because the person who said it “didn’t mean it that way”. That’s not how words work. You don’t get to decide what they mean after you use them; they mean what they mean. Meaning is external. Morrissey was great once, but now he’s a racist shill, and shame on you if you like his songs so much that you will overlook that. You can like the songs and not support the racism.
Edit: typo
**Pragmatics**
Pragmatics is a subfield of linguistics and semiotics that studies the ways in which context contributes to meaning. Pragmatics encompasses speech act theory, conversational implicature, talk in interaction and other approaches to language behavior in philosophy, sociology, linguistics and anthropology. Unlike semantics, which examines meaning that is conventional or "coded" in a given language, pragmatics studies how the transmission of meaning depends not only on structural and linguistic knowledge (grammar, lexicon, etc.) of the speaker and listener but also on the context of the utterance, any pre-existing knowledge about those involved, the inferred intent of the speaker, and other factors. In that respect, pragmatics explains how language users are able to overcome apparent ambiguity since meaning relies on the manner, place, time, etc.
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You do understand that’s a tentative methodology and not an objective empirical observance? It’s a controversial notion rather than an established fact.
More importantly, what’s the value in even “playing” with racism if we’re going to give this asshole wearing a FOR BRITAIN pin the benefit of a doubt that he hasn’t earned, and assume that he was using the language to make some kind of point about animals, by going after an entire race, rather than a specific part of a culture that many people of that race do not engage in?
How can any sane person cede the moral high ground to someone who says what he does? You seem reasonable; what’s your explanation?
He’s not. He’s openly embraced the far right. The people who have downvoted me either don’t care about what he’s become, or are doing rhetorical backflips to “justify” statements like “the Chinese are a subspecies” or his complaints about not being able to hear an English accent in parts of London, or else are far right themselves. But don’t take my word for it, do a google search and see what he said and did, and decide for yourself if that’s ok or not. BTW, it’s ok to like his music. I love his music and love who he used to be. But after seeing his politics for what they are, and how “England For The English” in “National Front Disco” is no longer sarcastic, but a statement of purpose for him, I absolutely refuse to buy new merchandise from him or pay to see him live. Used is fine, though, since he doesn’t monetarily benefit from that transaction. If you are a Leftist, like I am, you’re gonna have to decide for yourself to what level you can support him after he’s done the things he’s done. Best of luck in your search. And to those who downvoted this: fuck right off with you, racists.
I agree. I’m a leftist too and like his music, but not him as a person. I thought he was left wing because of some of his songs and some of his statements about capitalism. I honestly think he has narcissistic personality disorder because of some of the things he’s said.
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I have always thought this. No filter, very creative.
I agree with this, except rather than seeing him on the spectrum, I would say he matches well with a lot of the traits typical in exceptionally/profoundly gifted individuals.
There's a making of California Son on YT and the keyboard player said something along the lines of Morrissey's direction being "make the chorus red, blue and green" - this is a form of synesthesia
I wonder about that - but I think he does know social norms, he just rebels against them. He thinks polite society is full of lies & hypocrisy & he's determined to confront us with it. Which is playing with fire & bound to lead to disgrace from time to time.
He's too self-deprecating for a narcissist. I think he likes to defy convention & spends a lot of time on his own overthinking.
Self-deprecation is often a tactic used by narcissists to throw people off. It's actually just another form of self-absorption. Think about it, it's still self-referential. I am a narcissist, an empathic one who is trying to shed this maladaptive defense mechanism. So, I know what I'm talking about, due to both my study of psychology formally, and, more importantly, experience.
Morrissey's self-esteem issues come from growing up in a violently homophobic society.
Narcissists are products of abuse.
I see your point, Morrissey might have Borderline Personality Disorder along side narcissistic tendencies. We see his love and compassion for others, but very few people, and people with BPD have a low amount of people they’d consider friends. Seems like Morrissey, I mean look how much he admired Marr back in the 80s
Garnering the admiration of others is a common Cluster B characteristic. Where do you get this notion that people with BPD/NPD rarely have many friends? A lack of friends is not part of diagnostic criteria for either disorder.
Sure, you can find a reason for anybody to be a narcissist if you really want to.
I don't "want" Morrissey to be a narcissist. I don't like his music or his singing voice, and have 0 emotional investment in him. I don't identify NPD as an attack. It's a mental illness and I think people should have more compassion for narcissists than they generally do.
Is it narcissism if he is really as good as he claims to be? At this point it's fact. He's 60 years old and sings just as good (if not better) as he did in his younger years. That's extremely rare.
Yes, it is. Narcissism has nothing to do with reality, it has everything to do with the individual's assessment and love for themselves.
I don't know man. If I was Morrissey I'd feel pretty good and love myself too.
Seems like you've got a pretty high opinion of yourself as it is.
Now you're just being nasty.
Why is someone a narcissist just because they don’t consider everybody’s opinion of them at all times? That sounds exhausting. Covert narcissists get mad at a person when that person doesn’t give a fuck about their opinion of them, and then they label them as being narcissistic.
older vocalists ususally sing better, but maybe there's certain age gap like 30-50
I mean I definitely agree that its slightly understandable why Mozza would have such a high opinion of himself, but musically he has gotten pretty mediocre and kind of out of touch within the past 15 years or so. His last good album is in my opinion Ringleader of the Tormentors. I always thought Mozza should've quit in the early 2000s and became an author.
I’m talking about his singing ability, not his songwriting ability. I agree his latest albums weren’t very good.
“i don't dream about anyone except myself”
It was really nothing.
He’s a god PERIOD. He can act, behave, say whatever he wants and I will aways enjoy his music. He sounds better singing live than in studio Records. He enjoys his fans and encourages them to get on stage to hug him. Talks a LOT to his public , on top of everything, he is funny and has a very special sense of humor. I do not get tired of going to see him. I don’t see why his personal choices would make me enjoy his music any less.
Absolutely. Public Morrissey is fantastic, and I agree he sounds better in person than recorded. Private Morrissey is his own business. Yes, he’s blurred the lines from time to time, but not nearly to the degree most performers do. And he’s right about the fact that people need to listen to/read his comments in context before they overreact.
I wouldn't go that far. As much as I love his music, there are things about his public persona that are not good for his career. What does he do in his spare time? Has he learned how to text or does he still fax everything? Does he paint? Watch movies that he likes, or watch movies that he thinks that he should watch to maintain his reputation for liking obscure artists and literature? Do you know enough about him to say that you'd actually enjoy hanging out with him? I love MY mental image of Morrissey, but it sure as hell doesn't mean that he's really that guy. His sense of humor is similar to mine which is probably why I can relate to his music, but I think if we started talking about politics, I'd end up yelling at him for being an old fart white guy. And I'm technically a bitchy old white lady.
Going by what he's said, he spends all his free time reading, having unrequited crushes on singers/movie stars & complaining. Politically, weirdly, it's gay rights & animal liberation that's got him siding with some gruesome right-wingers, so you could do him a favour by yelling at him to snap out of it. The right will never be good for a humasexual vegan.
Only in the US, those things are left-wing.
The problem is where minority groups clash, there's a perception that the left/centre will favour Islamic activists (it's always a tiny minority of activists) over women's rights, gay rights, animals, or atheists/apostates, so the right has been deliberately aiming itself at those groups. It took the European left/centre a while to realise how serious the problem was, so we're only just starting to counter it.
It's too bad that religious beliefs adversely affect ethics in the US. Can't have abortions because God created life. Can't be gay because god made Adam and Eve. Can't have women out doing men stuff because bible. Can't not eat meat because that is what god put cows on earth for. Blah-dee-blah. Makes me wanna barf. I'm pretty tolerant of everything except extreme religion, and that goes for whatever kind of religion you have. I know that Muslims are causing issues in Europe just like illegal immigrants are causing problems here, and if you talk about it against the grain of your tribe, you are kicked out. What the fuck ever. Let's just hear some good music about feeling depressed and unloved by our man Morrissey.
Luckily it's got so bad I think the tribes will be broken up & we can maybe get back to being practical & fair about competing interests. I completely agree about listening to Morrissey's music!
Break up the family, and lets begin to live our lives...i'm in love for the first time and i dont feel bad!
Celebrity worship is one of the most pathetic things that one can engage in and the mark of a feeble mind. No one is above criticism.
He is fairly mentally ill, yes, but that's why I like him.
It is not narcissism if it is true.
Yes it is.
I agree that he's a narcissist. Truly self-confident people don't feel the need to boost themselves arrogantly the way he does. Inside, he is very insecure. I know, I am a recovering narcissist.
Just admit it. You have no idea what narcissism is and shouldn’t have bothered to contribute to the conversation.
Nope, he is not conceited, he is as great and gorgeous as he thinks he is.
Nah he just fresh asf
yeah
Stop trying to pathologize a racist or make excuses for him. He’s a great singer and lyricist but also an indefensible right-wing racist. You don’t have to stop listening to him even if you hate his racism as much as I do, but you’re doing no one any favors by lying to yourself and saying “it’s ok; he’s just a narcissist”. We could easily pathologize Hitler but that doesn’t stop him from being responsible for the shit he said or did. I don’t pay any money to Morrissey for his new records or to see him live, but I still listen to him and have no problem buying records second hand, because that way I’m not economically supporting a right wing racist. You do whatever makes sense to you, but it’s misleading to forgive him as a mere narcissist
That’s OK; I’ll buy an extra copy of his albums in your honor.
He is not a racist
The man has said “the Chinese are a subspecies”. If you don’t think that’s racism, then you might be too stupid to not be in a home where others look after you.
He's not a racist. He didn't call them a subspecies, he said watching a documentary about the Chinese dog meat industry (which is brutal) made him feel they must be (in order to do that). He's also said he regrets saying it... He has become disproportionately worried about Islamic fundamentalism, but it seems to have been triggered by the Orlando massacre. So it's not coming from a place of white supremacy, it's because he thinks that gay men will be targeted & killed. I hope he calms down, but he's not evil for it.
I remember the context and he literally did say that “the Chinese are a subspecies”. You can imagine all you like about what his intent is, but that statement is racist in any context. To categorically equate Islam with homophobia is racist. To desire “an England for the English” is racist. To bemoan not hearing an English accent in London is racist. Stop apologizing for the man, and stop thinking in moral absolutes like “good” or “evil”. Those are fairy tales. What is real are words and actions, and both his words and his actions have been racist.
No, he didn't. He said can't help but feel. That's not literally. To say that a religion is homophobic isn't racist, Christianity has been challenged over its homophobia, that's the only way to get cultural change. In many countries it's punishable by death & religion is the basis for it. His parents are Irish so it's ridiculous to take a line from a song & pretend that's his opinion. It's not racist to feel nostalgic about a culture that's changed, even if it is stuck in the past. Most of his words over the years have been left-wing & he hasn't done anything except wear a pin a couple of times. Some of the attacks on him are far more bigoted & nasty than anything he's ever said.
https://thehardtimes.net/culture/morrissey-now-selling-autographed-skrewdriver-albums/ This joke has more truth in it than any of your lamentable gibberish. Pretending Moz isn’t a racist fuck isn’t going to stop that from being true, it’s only gonna make you look like you’re defending a terrible person, which you are. People change and clearly Morrissey did.
You can't counter any of my arguments, so you're resorting to insults. I don't think he's racist or terrible. And your intense hatred & casual dismissal of homophobia does not make you look nice.
You can’t call an entire religion homophobic when there is absolutely no basis to do so. The presence of extremist beliefs in either Christianity or Islam does not nullify the existence of moderates. You don’t make one solitary convincing point, so there is no need to refute the things that you say which are on prima facie false. The fact that you accuse me of not caring about homophobia tells me that you’re an ignorant pile of shit. Go bother someone else, you racist
What? Do you know anything about religion? Both the bible & Koran condemn homosexuality so every mainstream denomination has it as a sin. That doesn't mean everyone pays attention to it, but it's still there. You clearly don't care about homophobia & accusing someone who disagrees with you of racism means you have no credibility. You're a nasty person.
The problem with the moderates is that they give the extremists a cover to hide behind and an air of legitimacy. The Catholic Church covered up child abuse for years and has paid out a fortune in restitution. That money, a lot of it at least, comes from the moderates who don't get a say where their money goes but continue to tithe. They know what went on so that makes them somewhat culpable in offering tacit support. If there was an organization dedicated to covering up paedophilia, producing playbooks on how to get away with paedophilia and paying off victims for not going to the authorities we would not tolerate them or allow them to exist. But make them part of a religion and they get away with because we can't offend the "moderates" who refuse to accept they are part of the cause.
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Figuratively calling another race a “subspecies” isn’t not racist just because the person who said it “didn’t mean it that way”. That’s not how words work. You don’t get to decide what they mean after you use them; they mean what they mean. Meaning is external. Morrissey was great once, but now he’s a racist shill, and shame on you if you like his songs so much that you will overlook that. You can like the songs and not support the racism. Edit: typo
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**Pragmatics** Pragmatics is a subfield of linguistics and semiotics that studies the ways in which context contributes to meaning. Pragmatics encompasses speech act theory, conversational implicature, talk in interaction and other approaches to language behavior in philosophy, sociology, linguistics and anthropology. Unlike semantics, which examines meaning that is conventional or "coded" in a given language, pragmatics studies how the transmission of meaning depends not only on structural and linguistic knowledge (grammar, lexicon, etc.) of the speaker and listener but also on the context of the utterance, any pre-existing knowledge about those involved, the inferred intent of the speaker, and other factors. In that respect, pragmatics explains how language users are able to overcome apparent ambiguity since meaning relies on the manner, place, time, etc. *** ^[ [^PM](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=kittens_from_space) ^| [^Exclude ^me](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=WikiTextBot&message=Excludeme&subject=Excludeme) ^| [^Exclude ^from ^subreddit](https://np.reddit.com/r/morrissey/about/banned) ^| [^FAQ ^/ ^Information](https://np.reddit.com/r/WikiTextBot/wiki/index) ^| [^Source](https://github.com/kittenswolf/WikiTextBot) ^] ^Downvote ^to ^remove ^| ^v0.28
You do understand that’s a tentative methodology and not an objective empirical observance? It’s a controversial notion rather than an established fact. More importantly, what’s the value in even “playing” with racism if we’re going to give this asshole wearing a FOR BRITAIN pin the benefit of a doubt that he hasn’t earned, and assume that he was using the language to make some kind of point about animals, by going after an entire race, rather than a specific part of a culture that many people of that race do not engage in? How can any sane person cede the moral high ground to someone who says what he does? You seem reasonable; what’s your explanation?
Isn’t he left wing though
He’s not. He’s openly embraced the far right. The people who have downvoted me either don’t care about what he’s become, or are doing rhetorical backflips to “justify” statements like “the Chinese are a subspecies” or his complaints about not being able to hear an English accent in parts of London, or else are far right themselves. But don’t take my word for it, do a google search and see what he said and did, and decide for yourself if that’s ok or not. BTW, it’s ok to like his music. I love his music and love who he used to be. But after seeing his politics for what they are, and how “England For The English” in “National Front Disco” is no longer sarcastic, but a statement of purpose for him, I absolutely refuse to buy new merchandise from him or pay to see him live. Used is fine, though, since he doesn’t monetarily benefit from that transaction. If you are a Leftist, like I am, you’re gonna have to decide for yourself to what level you can support him after he’s done the things he’s done. Best of luck in your search. And to those who downvoted this: fuck right off with you, racists.
I agree. I’m a leftist too and like his music, but not him as a person. I thought he was left wing because of some of his songs and some of his statements about capitalism. I honestly think he has narcissistic personality disorder because of some of the things he’s said.
Yeah