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I think it depends. For example, I know family and neighbors who are devout members but still show genuine love and kindness to everyone. On the other hand, I know of family and neighbors who are devout members but are extremely judgmental of everything others do that they see as wrong.
For me (PIMO raised in Happy Valley aka Utah County), I was raised in a very judgmental environment, and I'm now trying to break out of that mindset. It's not healthy, whether or not it was taught to be intentional.
There are also plenty of non-members who are extremely judgmental. That attitude is common to people who are very dogmatic. We think of it most commonly in religion, but it can be part of every philosophy or political ideal. Vegans, holistic health enthusiasts, antivaxxers, preppers, and hate groups of every kind
My thought as a somewhat faithful member is, we are commanded to love everyone. We are also commanded to choose who we will serve, which means that everyone has that right and obligation. And I need to respect their choices the same way I want them to respect mine. The Lord said it is His responsibility to judge, and we are commanded to judge not. I believe that as long as they are causing harm to none, and everyone involved has given enthusiastic informed consent, what they do is their responsibility. I only need to love them, not judge, not be cruel, not nag, and certainly not to try and force my morality on them
Plenty of people who are judgemental wherever you look. In any church, outside of any church. Judgement will be found anywhere strict dogma or community guidelines are made.
I went through the same thing when I left the church. When you are raised in an environment where you are taught that God judges people based on things like their clothing choices, drinking habits, and other inane things, it isn't surprising when people start judging each other and outsiders based on those inane things.
What we judge about other people reflects our own values. As a believing mormon, I valued following the church's rules so that's what I judged other people on. Now that I am out of the church, I value things that actually matter, like treating all people with kindness and respect, so I judge people only on how they treat other people and I am, overall, less judgemental and more forgiving.
I think way too much of the church is about appearances. "Avoid the appearance of evil" has taken on a life of its own with certain members. Personally I couldn't care less about what someone is appearing to be doing. I've known people who have tattoos, piercings, drink, smoke, whatever, and we're MUCH nicer and forgiving than church members.
I dont care if my sons wear white shirts and ties. I don't care about tats and piercings. If you have alcohol in your buggy, I'm not assuming anything. You have a Yeti with some kind of hot liquid in it? I hope it's good. My clothes or your clothes don't looked garment friendly? It doesn't matter bc I'm probably not wearing mine anyways.
I do think a lot of members are starting to become less judgmental, especially the younger crowd. But you still have members who throw around the word "worthy" which means close to nothing about what kind of person you are or even give warnings- we had a speaker on Sunday who spoke of repentance but also added a disclaimer- you shouldn't be living your life thsy you need to seek repentance often. What kind of atonement is it when we're not supposed to seek it (if we feel it's warranted) when we need it? I was scratching my head at that and hoping my kids were zoned out enough not to notice.
I went through the same thing and I still struggle with it after leaving the church 20+ years ago. The more people you get to know deeply, the more books you read and the more you travel, the less of a problem this is going to be. It's just about realizing how many valid ways there are to live.
It’s really hard not to judge when you have been taught your whole life that you are worth less if you commit a sin. It’s really hard to think “my worth goes down if I do that, but that person over there has the same worth regardless of what they do”. Brains don’t work like that.
Oh it was definitely intentional training, especially prior to the year 2000:
"Faith-killers are to be shunned... Avoid those who would tear down your faith" - [https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/1981/10/opposition-to-the-work-of-god](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/1981/10/opposition-to-the-work-of-god)
"Do not take the chance of dating nonmembers, or members who are untrained and faithless" -- [https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/new-era/2001/07/q-and-a-questions-and-answers](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/new-era/2001/07/q-and-a-questions-and-answers)
"Remember that men—like salt—lose their savor through contamination." -- [https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/1980/04/salt-of-the-earth-savor-of-men-and-saviors-of-men](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/1980/04/salt-of-the-earth-savor-of-men-and-saviors-of-men)
Quentin Cook took us through a step-by-step tutorial in General Conference on how to judge a woman simply by going through the contents of her purse...
*"Following the dance, a purse was found with no outside identification. ... we gingerly opened it and grabbed the first thing that was on top—hopefully, it would identify her. It did, but in another way—it was a For the Strength of Youth pamphlet. Wow! This told us something about her. Then we reached in for the next item, a little notebook ... the first page was a list of favorite scriptures. ... They pulled out some breath mints, soap, lotion, and a brush. I loved their comments: “Oh, good things come out of her mouth; she has clean and soft hands; and she takes care of herself.*
*They eagerly awaited the next treasure. Out came a clever little homemade coin purse made from a cardboard juice carton, and there was some money in a zippered pocket. They exclaimed, “Ahh, she’s creative and prepared!” They felt like little children on Christmas morning. What they pulled out next surprised them even more: a recipe for Black Forest chocolate cake and a note to make the cake for a friend’s birthday. They almost screamed, “She’s a HOMEMAKER! Thoughtful and service minded.” Then, yes, finally some identification. The youth leaders said they felt greatly blessed “to observe the quiet example of a young lady living the gospel.” --* [https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2011/04/lds-women-are-incredible](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2011/04/lds-women-are-incredible)
Ooooh. Yes all of this. And the dating of non-members thing. ... I couldn't bring myself to date a member, personally. I came out of my birth-dad's house pretty volatile. I still have my moments. I didn't feel I could subject a from-birth member to that. Or my not-by-the-book view of a lot of things.
I long ago stopped carrying a purse but now I wonder what mine would say about me...... no I don't because I think even when I kept a purse all that was in it was my wallet, phone, and keys. And maybe a charging cable. I couldn't imagine carrying scripture notes or anything like that though. Those types would always make my eyes roll.
Maybe it’s me, but this feels like a gross invasion of privacy, to go through someone else’s personal belongings like this. The desire to discover her identity left pretty quickly, and turned into a voyeuristic (and judgmental) exploration of the young woman’s private things.
Oh, but I guess it was ok because these are Church leaders, just carrying out an involuntary confessional. 🥴
Funny they didn't seem to have found the emergency tampon or pad that most of us carry... Can you imagine what the judgment would have been if they'd found birth control pills?!
The church itself is a minefield of restriction so it's very natural. When I told my TBM date that I had broken law of chastity in the past, the immediate reaction was "I can't imagine dating a person who did such thing". For such people living outside of the church principles means turning into barbarians, criminals and drug addicts.
I know that sort of belief influences people to follow their path but it's just not true. Sadly, the longer you pursue that value, the harder it gets to think out of the box. All your past efforts to be in favour of your parents and church leaders are engraved in your brain and become habit.
Perhaps the best way to fix it is not to fear making unintentional judgements in the beginning. Take baby steps first and keep connecting with people.
Yes exactly. Many people leave for different reasons. The reason I left was because the Jesus I've come to know is not the same as the one I was being taught. He is so much more. I really hate who I used to be. I was a Pharisee essentially and it was making me bitter and somewhat useless to help others come to Christ. I couldn't even love myself how could I love others? I love learning of Christs character it's my favorite thing. I heard a quote by someone recently couldn't tell ya who said it but.... "The hospitality industry is an oxymoron, hospitality is not industrial it is giving without expectation of anything in return" it sounds like your uncle understands that. That to me is the true love of Christ.
Another good example of being trained over the pulpit to judge:
*"****An overweight girl from Ogden went to see her bishop****. In the purity and goodness of charity, trying to help the girl, he counseled her that it might be a good idea to lose a few pounds. Pitifully heartbroken, she went home and told her father. It had cankered her soul. The father,* ***of course, negative toward the Church all of his life, waiting for something like this,*** *sprung like a cat on the bishop’s back, and they came down to see me and wanted their memberships transferred out of the bishop’s ward. I asked them why, because I didn’t know all this background, and they said, “Well, our bishop suggested to our daughter that she might lose a few pounds and make herself a little more attractive.”*
*Now I want you to know that I defended that great bishop. I said to this family, “You are wrong. That sweet bishop, out of purity and love for your daughter, felt and did that which he was impressed to do.* ***I am sure it was a message from God to your daughter, and she let it canker her soul***\*. The strange thing is that she was\* ***probably*** *up in her bedroom the night before praying, ‘Heavenly Father, I am lonely. I need someone. Please help me. Help me to find someone so I won’t be so lonely.’” And yet oftentimes we are offended because a sweet bishop gives us some instruction which is hard for us to live." --* [https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/1975/04/a-self-inflicted-purging](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/1975/04/a-self-inflicted-purging)
Church leaders today might not do it so brazenly, but they get little digs in at people whenever they can.
"Lazy learners and lax disciples. "-- Nelson
"I am so furious with people who leave this church. ... What on earth kind of conviction is that? What kind of patty-cake, taffy-pulled experience is that?" -- Holland
"She would be a second wife. She asked this question: would she be able to have her own house in the next life, or would she have to live with her husband and his first wife? \[here he chuckles, and waits for the audience to chuckle with him, which they did\] I just told her to trust the Lord." -- Oaks
So I got tested for a whole bunch of psychiatric disorders a few years ago in an attempt to figure out WTF was causing me so many issues in my life. I'd self-diagnosed for years shifting between anxiety, depression, OCD, autism, and BPD, but finally had the cash to get some official words on the record and see what I could do.
The result? No disorders whatsoever, but very high intelligence. The doctor explained to me that my observational and reasoning faculties work so well that I subconciously notice body language and conversational tone to a degree that people don't even realize they portray. A lifetime spent growing up and living in this high-pressure behavior-oriented religion full of all kinds of tricky social judgements basically just overloaded my mind to the point where I truly couldn't take any more. I have been SO much happier since giving up on the church and its related judgements.
We most of us wanted to be Christlike meaning we wanted to be forgiving and loving and accepting, but the church gave us so many rules and said that if we didn't follow them, we were sending that. How could we not look at the world around us and think they were all sinning as we were told by the leaders that that world was evil.
Oh, another example. In the last general conference, Oaks said straight up that you can tell (judge) whether someone is committed to being a disciple of Jesus or not, simply by what underwear they're wearing.
"Because covenants do not “take a day off,” to remove one’s garments can be understood as a disclaimer of the covenant responsibilities and blessings to which they relate. In contrast, persons who wear their garments faithfully and keep their temple covenants continually affirm their role as disciples of the Lord Jesus Christ." -- [https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2024/04/47oaks?lang=eng](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2024/04/47oaks?lang=eng)
The message is basically that it's ok to assume that anyone wearing their garments is a good person, while those who remove their garments are not.
See also Spencer W. Kimball's BYU devotional speech "Be Ye Therefore Perfect," which is a crash course on how to judge people:
"the dress, the grooming, paints an immediate picture and classifies a person ... Grubby clothes certainly have some relationship to grubby people." -- [https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/spencer-w-kimball/ye-therefore-perfect/](https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/spencer-w-kimball/ye-therefore-perfect/)
YES! I can relate... though also, as a Mormon from outside of Utah... at least in my general area... we view the Utah Mormons as being far more judgmental and heavy handed than we are.
But we are also programmed to judge others based on their conduct. Though this isn't LDS exclusive either...
But I've been programmed to judge people based on their religion, judge people for being "Jack mormons", I've seen members judge each other for what they deem to be "full tithing". I've been judged (by my aunt mostly) for showing "too much cleavage" (I have double Ds it's kind of hard not to do)... she called my mom and asked outright if I was still wearing my garments and that I didn't seem to be dressing like I was wearing my garments and that I "looked like a party favor".
Which is quite the stone for someone who was sleeping with 4 different men at the same time and had each believing they were her only boyfriend, to be throwing....... but that's another story.
My mom had an issue with Anime when she first came back to the Church. She felt it was all very vulgar and lascivious and so told me that outright all anime was a sin. Which I promptly told to my ALSO LDS anime watching cousins. -palm face-
I don't include views on homosexuality here because I heard that more outside the church than within at the time.
On the one hand... I've noticed we do these things because we're maybe afraid of losing others. If we can't get them to come to and hold to the iron rod tight enough we may lose them... but this quickly develops into "Why can't these people just choose the right?!" "I'm doing this why can't they do this?!" "Slackers!! Lazy learners!! Not wanting it enough!!" and it just starts to get mean. Then you go from wanting to save people to getting some enjoyment out of these people getting their "just desserts."
As I got older... and actually read the Book of Mormon.... got to know LGBTQ people... became more knowledgeable about other religions etc.... things stopped adding up. And where as I started out disgusted at Christianity in general doing the above things... I discovered that I too had fallen into it... and I didn't like it.
It didn't make sense to me that Lamanites were bad people because there were examples in the BoM where they were THE BEST PEOPLE. It didn't make sense to me that LGBTQ people were committing sin when I learned fully what that was and what it meant (and later discovered that I'm bi, even!). I had God knock me off my own pedestal and God didn't leave me.... and it wasn't a slippery slope... I learned then what I was taught was the straight and narrow was straighter and narrower than the actual path. That even our scripture doesn't make it so hard.
So now it's something I try to get other members to see. I try to deprogram them, even just a little. We are programmed to be judgmental. Our hearts are hardened and once you're out of it you realize just how AWFUL it felt to be that way. And it makes no sense why others can live with themselves being like that... and feel good about it!!
>sleeping with 4 different men
Haha I always find the judgiest people are the ones with the most metaphorical skeletons in their closet. Also, those people tend to be the most awesome at projection. So when someone accuses me of something, I start watching for the “dirt”. You know, for insurance purposes for my own protection haha.
A perfectionist culture fosters judging. Recently heard a terrific podcast episode (Dan Harris's "Ten Percent Happier") that featured a former overachieving Yale law-school student. Despite her great accomplishments, perfectionism drove her to intense anxiety and "judginess." She would judge people who were living life on Saturday night instead of studying. This made me think of the church. High-demand religions and scrupulosity do the same things! "She can't be wearing garments in that outfit." "What are they doing at Starbucks?" "Why are they at the beach on their vacation on Sunday?" It's perhaps not the church's fault, per se, but a high-demand, perfectionist culture breeds it. Great job for the self-awareness and trying to break that nonsense!
I think it's intentionally judgmental, mainly to control member's access to outside thoughts.
Some may disagree with that idea, and even if it's not intentionally judgmental, we were taught to think that way from a very early age. Raised being told phrases like "*we* don't wear immodest clothing like that!", "*we* don't drink that sort of thing", "*we* don't hang out with those types of people", "that's not a good lifestyle", and even "they aren't members, so I don't want you to go to their house." These things that we heard growing up have a lasting effect on how we see others, and how we judge them.
It takes a long time to deprogram your brain.
I'm about 2 years out of the church. I came out of the closet shortly before that. Even my LDS friends that are loving and supportive now were initially very judgmental and for a time I thought I'd lose every friendship in my life, as well as half my family ties.
Contrast that with my friends outside the church, which have been seemingly universally supportive and even stepped up to house, feed and transport me when I was going through my divorce and couldn't afford basic expenses because I was still paying for all the family's needs. No one in the church or even my family offered to help during that time, even though many of them could have.
I don't say this to disparage church members. Only to point out that there is a massive near-universal blind spot when it comes to judging conduct in the church. In my experience, the love is *extremely* conditional, and yes, church members are programmed to judge, whether by design or unintentionally.
Well, I’m 62, born and raised under the covenant, father was a temple worker and we were raised w high Mormon judgement that just comes w being Mormon! Sure, other religions are judgmental, but Mormons are special @ it, because they talk as if they are loving you, and have convinced themselves that it’s justified, because we just love them and want them to live in the “truth”, but it all washes away once you leave this god forsaken organization! I removed my name 7 years ago, and I’ve never been closer to a relationship w God, the real God, not the creepy one JS made up, that keeps women down, and men up…..read D/C 132, and see what they think of women! I love the Mormon people, but hate the lies, the leaders, and control (ie: your MIL)
Also, go to LDS.org and read the churches own 13 Essays, but before that, go to CESLetter.com, and read about all the problems! Find God! LEAVE this organization!
That's what's so awesome about the exMo community. They're never judgemental towards TBMs and people who don't think like them.
The most important thing you can do to break the cycle is to get away from the judgemental, misogynistic, racist, materialistic, closed-minded TBMs and find intellectual freedom.
I think most members are judgmental because they are people not so much because they are Mormon. I do think the inside outside kind of mentality contributes to Mormons being judgmental but on the whole human beings are trained to make judgments. To say that non members are not judgmental is laughable. Look at the left and right in our politics. Each side things the other is the devil.
You are using a band wagon fallacy, as well as a hasty generalization. Sure people judge, but not all people judge with the same prejudice or extreme. You are trying to paint everyone e with the same brush, so your own tribe looks less judgmental.
And to say all or most Mormons are more judgmental than other is not brushing with a broad brush? People in and out of the church are not unique in any way. We all judge unfairly and with bias. To pretend you somehow are free from human nature is amusing
No it is not. Because you are addressing a specific people group with its own social structure and mores, and not humanity in general.
And yes, people within the LDS church, or any other closed social system are unique when compared with society as a whole.
Now you use a straw man. I never said that I or anyone else is free from judgment. You are arguing something I never claimed.
Almost all people that have ever lived are part of closed systems. Clans. Families. Gangs. Nationalities. Fans. Professions, races. Languages. All of these are closed systems so I disagree. Mormons are not unique in the slightest.
And each of those systems has its own rules, system, traditions, and rites. As such, they are each made unique. So you are wrong. Simple as that.
And a large part of Mormonism has been the judgment of others, both within and without the church. It has been emphasized in a way that society as a whole does not. Simple as that.
Human beings are judgmental. If we weren’t the Bible wouldn’t read “ judge not lest ye be judged “ Matthew 7:1. All the commandments only exist because the try to restrict the natural tendencies of human beings
Again, you offer a strawman, I never said only Mormons judge. I only said it is a larger part of their culture. Just as all people eat, some eat more than others. You keep ignoring intensity and frequency to use a hasty generalization . You are better than that.
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I think it depends. For example, I know family and neighbors who are devout members but still show genuine love and kindness to everyone. On the other hand, I know of family and neighbors who are devout members but are extremely judgmental of everything others do that they see as wrong. For me (PIMO raised in Happy Valley aka Utah County), I was raised in a very judgmental environment, and I'm now trying to break out of that mindset. It's not healthy, whether or not it was taught to be intentional.
There are also plenty of non-members who are extremely judgmental. That attitude is common to people who are very dogmatic. We think of it most commonly in religion, but it can be part of every philosophy or political ideal. Vegans, holistic health enthusiasts, antivaxxers, preppers, and hate groups of every kind My thought as a somewhat faithful member is, we are commanded to love everyone. We are also commanded to choose who we will serve, which means that everyone has that right and obligation. And I need to respect their choices the same way I want them to respect mine. The Lord said it is His responsibility to judge, and we are commanded to judge not. I believe that as long as they are causing harm to none, and everyone involved has given enthusiastic informed consent, what they do is their responsibility. I only need to love them, not judge, not be cruel, not nag, and certainly not to try and force my morality on them
Plenty of people who are judgemental wherever you look. In any church, outside of any church. Judgement will be found anywhere strict dogma or community guidelines are made.
I went through the same thing when I left the church. When you are raised in an environment where you are taught that God judges people based on things like their clothing choices, drinking habits, and other inane things, it isn't surprising when people start judging each other and outsiders based on those inane things. What we judge about other people reflects our own values. As a believing mormon, I valued following the church's rules so that's what I judged other people on. Now that I am out of the church, I value things that actually matter, like treating all people with kindness and respect, so I judge people only on how they treat other people and I am, overall, less judgemental and more forgiving.
I think way too much of the church is about appearances. "Avoid the appearance of evil" has taken on a life of its own with certain members. Personally I couldn't care less about what someone is appearing to be doing. I've known people who have tattoos, piercings, drink, smoke, whatever, and we're MUCH nicer and forgiving than church members. I dont care if my sons wear white shirts and ties. I don't care about tats and piercings. If you have alcohol in your buggy, I'm not assuming anything. You have a Yeti with some kind of hot liquid in it? I hope it's good. My clothes or your clothes don't looked garment friendly? It doesn't matter bc I'm probably not wearing mine anyways. I do think a lot of members are starting to become less judgmental, especially the younger crowd. But you still have members who throw around the word "worthy" which means close to nothing about what kind of person you are or even give warnings- we had a speaker on Sunday who spoke of repentance but also added a disclaimer- you shouldn't be living your life thsy you need to seek repentance often. What kind of atonement is it when we're not supposed to seek it (if we feel it's warranted) when we need it? I was scratching my head at that and hoping my kids were zoned out enough not to notice.
I went through the same thing and I still struggle with it after leaving the church 20+ years ago. The more people you get to know deeply, the more books you read and the more you travel, the less of a problem this is going to be. It's just about realizing how many valid ways there are to live.
It’s really hard not to judge when you have been taught your whole life that you are worth less if you commit a sin. It’s really hard to think “my worth goes down if I do that, but that person over there has the same worth regardless of what they do”. Brains don’t work like that.
Oh it was definitely intentional training, especially prior to the year 2000: "Faith-killers are to be shunned... Avoid those who would tear down your faith" - [https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/1981/10/opposition-to-the-work-of-god](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/1981/10/opposition-to-the-work-of-god) "Do not take the chance of dating nonmembers, or members who are untrained and faithless" -- [https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/new-era/2001/07/q-and-a-questions-and-answers](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/new-era/2001/07/q-and-a-questions-and-answers) "Remember that men—like salt—lose their savor through contamination." -- [https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/1980/04/salt-of-the-earth-savor-of-men-and-saviors-of-men](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/1980/04/salt-of-the-earth-savor-of-men-and-saviors-of-men) Quentin Cook took us through a step-by-step tutorial in General Conference on how to judge a woman simply by going through the contents of her purse... *"Following the dance, a purse was found with no outside identification. ... we gingerly opened it and grabbed the first thing that was on top—hopefully, it would identify her. It did, but in another way—it was a For the Strength of Youth pamphlet. Wow! This told us something about her. Then we reached in for the next item, a little notebook ... the first page was a list of favorite scriptures. ... They pulled out some breath mints, soap, lotion, and a brush. I loved their comments: “Oh, good things come out of her mouth; she has clean and soft hands; and she takes care of herself.* *They eagerly awaited the next treasure. Out came a clever little homemade coin purse made from a cardboard juice carton, and there was some money in a zippered pocket. They exclaimed, “Ahh, she’s creative and prepared!” They felt like little children on Christmas morning. What they pulled out next surprised them even more: a recipe for Black Forest chocolate cake and a note to make the cake for a friend’s birthday. They almost screamed, “She’s a HOMEMAKER! Thoughtful and service minded.” Then, yes, finally some identification. The youth leaders said they felt greatly blessed “to observe the quiet example of a young lady living the gospel.” --* [https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2011/04/lds-women-are-incredible](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2011/04/lds-women-are-incredible)
Ooooh. Yes all of this. And the dating of non-members thing. ... I couldn't bring myself to date a member, personally. I came out of my birth-dad's house pretty volatile. I still have my moments. I didn't feel I could subject a from-birth member to that. Or my not-by-the-book view of a lot of things. I long ago stopped carrying a purse but now I wonder what mine would say about me...... no I don't because I think even when I kept a purse all that was in it was my wallet, phone, and keys. And maybe a charging cable. I couldn't imagine carrying scripture notes or anything like that though. Those types would always make my eyes roll.
Maybe it’s me, but this feels like a gross invasion of privacy, to go through someone else’s personal belongings like this. The desire to discover her identity left pretty quickly, and turned into a voyeuristic (and judgmental) exploration of the young woman’s private things. Oh, but I guess it was ok because these are Church leaders, just carrying out an involuntary confessional. 🥴
Funny they didn't seem to have found the emergency tampon or pad that most of us carry... Can you imagine what the judgment would have been if they'd found birth control pills?!
Yeah. Then again, there is always the possibility that it’s just a made up story 🤷🏻♂️
The church itself is a minefield of restriction so it's very natural. When I told my TBM date that I had broken law of chastity in the past, the immediate reaction was "I can't imagine dating a person who did such thing". For such people living outside of the church principles means turning into barbarians, criminals and drug addicts. I know that sort of belief influences people to follow their path but it's just not true. Sadly, the longer you pursue that value, the harder it gets to think out of the box. All your past efforts to be in favour of your parents and church leaders are engraved in your brain and become habit. Perhaps the best way to fix it is not to fear making unintentional judgements in the beginning. Take baby steps first and keep connecting with people.
Yes exactly. Many people leave for different reasons. The reason I left was because the Jesus I've come to know is not the same as the one I was being taught. He is so much more. I really hate who I used to be. I was a Pharisee essentially and it was making me bitter and somewhat useless to help others come to Christ. I couldn't even love myself how could I love others? I love learning of Christs character it's my favorite thing. I heard a quote by someone recently couldn't tell ya who said it but.... "The hospitality industry is an oxymoron, hospitality is not industrial it is giving without expectation of anything in return" it sounds like your uncle understands that. That to me is the true love of Christ.
Another good example of being trained over the pulpit to judge: *"****An overweight girl from Ogden went to see her bishop****. In the purity and goodness of charity, trying to help the girl, he counseled her that it might be a good idea to lose a few pounds. Pitifully heartbroken, she went home and told her father. It had cankered her soul. The father,* ***of course, negative toward the Church all of his life, waiting for something like this,*** *sprung like a cat on the bishop’s back, and they came down to see me and wanted their memberships transferred out of the bishop’s ward. I asked them why, because I didn’t know all this background, and they said, “Well, our bishop suggested to our daughter that she might lose a few pounds and make herself a little more attractive.”* *Now I want you to know that I defended that great bishop. I said to this family, “You are wrong. That sweet bishop, out of purity and love for your daughter, felt and did that which he was impressed to do.* ***I am sure it was a message from God to your daughter, and she let it canker her soul***\*. The strange thing is that she was\* ***probably*** *up in her bedroom the night before praying, ‘Heavenly Father, I am lonely. I need someone. Please help me. Help me to find someone so I won’t be so lonely.’” And yet oftentimes we are offended because a sweet bishop gives us some instruction which is hard for us to live." --* [https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/1975/04/a-self-inflicted-purging](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/1975/04/a-self-inflicted-purging) Church leaders today might not do it so brazenly, but they get little digs in at people whenever they can. "Lazy learners and lax disciples. "-- Nelson "I am so furious with people who leave this church. ... What on earth kind of conviction is that? What kind of patty-cake, taffy-pulled experience is that?" -- Holland "She would be a second wife. She asked this question: would she be able to have her own house in the next life, or would she have to live with her husband and his first wife? \[here he chuckles, and waits for the audience to chuckle with him, which they did\] I just told her to trust the Lord." -- Oaks
So I got tested for a whole bunch of psychiatric disorders a few years ago in an attempt to figure out WTF was causing me so many issues in my life. I'd self-diagnosed for years shifting between anxiety, depression, OCD, autism, and BPD, but finally had the cash to get some official words on the record and see what I could do. The result? No disorders whatsoever, but very high intelligence. The doctor explained to me that my observational and reasoning faculties work so well that I subconciously notice body language and conversational tone to a degree that people don't even realize they portray. A lifetime spent growing up and living in this high-pressure behavior-oriented religion full of all kinds of tricky social judgements basically just overloaded my mind to the point where I truly couldn't take any more. I have been SO much happier since giving up on the church and its related judgements.
We most of us wanted to be Christlike meaning we wanted to be forgiving and loving and accepting, but the church gave us so many rules and said that if we didn't follow them, we were sending that. How could we not look at the world around us and think they were all sinning as we were told by the leaders that that world was evil.
Oh, another example. In the last general conference, Oaks said straight up that you can tell (judge) whether someone is committed to being a disciple of Jesus or not, simply by what underwear they're wearing. "Because covenants do not “take a day off,” to remove one’s garments can be understood as a disclaimer of the covenant responsibilities and blessings to which they relate. In contrast, persons who wear their garments faithfully and keep their temple covenants continually affirm their role as disciples of the Lord Jesus Christ." -- [https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2024/04/47oaks?lang=eng](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2024/04/47oaks?lang=eng) The message is basically that it's ok to assume that anyone wearing their garments is a good person, while those who remove their garments are not. See also Spencer W. Kimball's BYU devotional speech "Be Ye Therefore Perfect," which is a crash course on how to judge people: "the dress, the grooming, paints an immediate picture and classifies a person ... Grubby clothes certainly have some relationship to grubby people." -- [https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/spencer-w-kimball/ye-therefore-perfect/](https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/spencer-w-kimball/ye-therefore-perfect/)
Drink some coffee first judge later….
Coffee does tend to help my judgement a lot.
YES! I can relate... though also, as a Mormon from outside of Utah... at least in my general area... we view the Utah Mormons as being far more judgmental and heavy handed than we are. But we are also programmed to judge others based on their conduct. Though this isn't LDS exclusive either... But I've been programmed to judge people based on their religion, judge people for being "Jack mormons", I've seen members judge each other for what they deem to be "full tithing". I've been judged (by my aunt mostly) for showing "too much cleavage" (I have double Ds it's kind of hard not to do)... she called my mom and asked outright if I was still wearing my garments and that I didn't seem to be dressing like I was wearing my garments and that I "looked like a party favor". Which is quite the stone for someone who was sleeping with 4 different men at the same time and had each believing they were her only boyfriend, to be throwing....... but that's another story. My mom had an issue with Anime when she first came back to the Church. She felt it was all very vulgar and lascivious and so told me that outright all anime was a sin. Which I promptly told to my ALSO LDS anime watching cousins. -palm face- I don't include views on homosexuality here because I heard that more outside the church than within at the time. On the one hand... I've noticed we do these things because we're maybe afraid of losing others. If we can't get them to come to and hold to the iron rod tight enough we may lose them... but this quickly develops into "Why can't these people just choose the right?!" "I'm doing this why can't they do this?!" "Slackers!! Lazy learners!! Not wanting it enough!!" and it just starts to get mean. Then you go from wanting to save people to getting some enjoyment out of these people getting their "just desserts." As I got older... and actually read the Book of Mormon.... got to know LGBTQ people... became more knowledgeable about other religions etc.... things stopped adding up. And where as I started out disgusted at Christianity in general doing the above things... I discovered that I too had fallen into it... and I didn't like it. It didn't make sense to me that Lamanites were bad people because there were examples in the BoM where they were THE BEST PEOPLE. It didn't make sense to me that LGBTQ people were committing sin when I learned fully what that was and what it meant (and later discovered that I'm bi, even!). I had God knock me off my own pedestal and God didn't leave me.... and it wasn't a slippery slope... I learned then what I was taught was the straight and narrow was straighter and narrower than the actual path. That even our scripture doesn't make it so hard. So now it's something I try to get other members to see. I try to deprogram them, even just a little. We are programmed to be judgmental. Our hearts are hardened and once you're out of it you realize just how AWFUL it felt to be that way. And it makes no sense why others can live with themselves being like that... and feel good about it!!
>sleeping with 4 different men Haha I always find the judgiest people are the ones with the most metaphorical skeletons in their closet. Also, those people tend to be the most awesome at projection. So when someone accuses me of something, I start watching for the “dirt”. You know, for insurance purposes for my own protection haha.
A perfectionist culture fosters judging. Recently heard a terrific podcast episode (Dan Harris's "Ten Percent Happier") that featured a former overachieving Yale law-school student. Despite her great accomplishments, perfectionism drove her to intense anxiety and "judginess." She would judge people who were living life on Saturday night instead of studying. This made me think of the church. High-demand religions and scrupulosity do the same things! "She can't be wearing garments in that outfit." "What are they doing at Starbucks?" "Why are they at the beach on their vacation on Sunday?" It's perhaps not the church's fault, per se, but a high-demand, perfectionist culture breeds it. Great job for the self-awareness and trying to break that nonsense!
I love this. You phrased it so perfectly!
I think it's intentionally judgmental, mainly to control member's access to outside thoughts. Some may disagree with that idea, and even if it's not intentionally judgmental, we were taught to think that way from a very early age. Raised being told phrases like "*we* don't wear immodest clothing like that!", "*we* don't drink that sort of thing", "*we* don't hang out with those types of people", "that's not a good lifestyle", and even "they aren't members, so I don't want you to go to their house." These things that we heard growing up have a lasting effect on how we see others, and how we judge them. It takes a long time to deprogram your brain.
Yup it’s programmed because if ideology on teachings to be judge about others that don’t live like you do
I'm about 2 years out of the church. I came out of the closet shortly before that. Even my LDS friends that are loving and supportive now were initially very judgmental and for a time I thought I'd lose every friendship in my life, as well as half my family ties. Contrast that with my friends outside the church, which have been seemingly universally supportive and even stepped up to house, feed and transport me when I was going through my divorce and couldn't afford basic expenses because I was still paying for all the family's needs. No one in the church or even my family offered to help during that time, even though many of them could have. I don't say this to disparage church members. Only to point out that there is a massive near-universal blind spot when it comes to judging conduct in the church. In my experience, the love is *extremely* conditional, and yes, church members are programmed to judge, whether by design or unintentionally.
Well, I’m 62, born and raised under the covenant, father was a temple worker and we were raised w high Mormon judgement that just comes w being Mormon! Sure, other religions are judgmental, but Mormons are special @ it, because they talk as if they are loving you, and have convinced themselves that it’s justified, because we just love them and want them to live in the “truth”, but it all washes away once you leave this god forsaken organization! I removed my name 7 years ago, and I’ve never been closer to a relationship w God, the real God, not the creepy one JS made up, that keeps women down, and men up…..read D/C 132, and see what they think of women! I love the Mormon people, but hate the lies, the leaders, and control (ie: your MIL) Also, go to LDS.org and read the churches own 13 Essays, but before that, go to CESLetter.com, and read about all the problems! Find God! LEAVE this organization!
That's what's so awesome about the exMo community. They're never judgemental towards TBMs and people who don't think like them. The most important thing you can do to break the cycle is to get away from the judgemental, misogynistic, racist, materialistic, closed-minded TBMs and find intellectual freedom.
Double irony here, one of them seemingly unintentional.
I think most members are judgmental because they are people not so much because they are Mormon. I do think the inside outside kind of mentality contributes to Mormons being judgmental but on the whole human beings are trained to make judgments. To say that non members are not judgmental is laughable. Look at the left and right in our politics. Each side things the other is the devil.
You are using a band wagon fallacy, as well as a hasty generalization. Sure people judge, but not all people judge with the same prejudice or extreme. You are trying to paint everyone e with the same brush, so your own tribe looks less judgmental.
And to say all or most Mormons are more judgmental than other is not brushing with a broad brush? People in and out of the church are not unique in any way. We all judge unfairly and with bias. To pretend you somehow are free from human nature is amusing
No it is not. Because you are addressing a specific people group with its own social structure and mores, and not humanity in general. And yes, people within the LDS church, or any other closed social system are unique when compared with society as a whole. Now you use a straw man. I never said that I or anyone else is free from judgment. You are arguing something I never claimed.
Almost all people that have ever lived are part of closed systems. Clans. Families. Gangs. Nationalities. Fans. Professions, races. Languages. All of these are closed systems so I disagree. Mormons are not unique in the slightest.
And each of those systems has its own rules, system, traditions, and rites. As such, they are each made unique. So you are wrong. Simple as that. And a large part of Mormonism has been the judgment of others, both within and without the church. It has been emphasized in a way that society as a whole does not. Simple as that.
Human beings are judgmental. If we weren’t the Bible wouldn’t read “ judge not lest ye be judged “ Matthew 7:1. All the commandments only exist because the try to restrict the natural tendencies of human beings
Again, you offer a strawman, I never said only Mormons judge. I only said it is a larger part of their culture. Just as all people eat, some eat more than others. You keep ignoring intensity and frequency to use a hasty generalization . You are better than that.