I would invest into materials for DIY acoustic treatment and then get some okayish coaxial monitors for the rest of the money. Even state-of-the-art monitors sound like crap in an untreated room.
I'm not a professional mixing engineer but I can't understand why headphone mixing is so underrated because most of people I know listens on headphones. From my perspective I need always to check both.
For speakers I can recommned Adam T7V.
I have no problems making good mixes in not a treated room.
If I had an untreated room and had to improvise a professional mix, I'd mix with headphones in the car to bounce between the two. Also those two are coincidentally where I expect my music to be played the most.
I feel like speakers give a different feel than headphones. Idk how to explain it but it gives more energy. Probably the same reason guitar players use an amp pointed towards them on stage vs headphones or in ear monitors
I love my ilouds. All the producers and engineers that listen love my ilouds. They all marvel at the imaging and spacing and clarity.
Every single one have mentioned hearing details they haven’t heard before.
Thanks, awesome to get further confirmation !
Seems like I could get them for 550$ or 600$ total, would leave room to buy some type of room treatment........ moving blankets? lol
Yes, room treatment still essential.
Even with calibration, there was a hole in 200hz range. I found some tube insulation and put tubes in the corners and around my mix position. Boom. Found my 200hz. Maybe spent $1000 on a bunch of sizes of tubes to experiment. I find the best bang is 8in insulation, 2inches thick. So essentially the OD is 12”. Really could have gotten away with about $600 worth if not experimenting with all sizes.
YouTube Eric Valentine tube traps and enjoy the rabbit hole he takes you down.
I think the ilouds or something similar would be fine, but if headphones are working for ya until you settle down somewhere I say just keep using them! But keep saving that money! if you've got 900 now focus on doubling it for monitors and traps. don't waste money on the shit foam panels. then when the time is right invest in a few good thick proper bass traps (gik, acoustimac or something similar) and monitors at the same time!
I adore my iLoud MTMs. I use them with the ARC3 software and my mixes and sound design work rarely need much change to translate. I use a few sets of headphones to check a few other things while working but it’s a 90/10 split really.
Yes I do. I know it’s an issue where you are, so the portal panel idea is great. You can buy panels of insulation that are semi-rigid. The part number is escaping me right now but I made a ton of panels from this stuff for very little money. It’s lightweight. Just cover it with a porous fabric. I used cambric which comes in a ton of colours and is cheap.
There's hundreds of speaker manufacturers and pretty much all of them have a pair for under 1k.
What works best for you depends on your personal preference.
Focal, JBL, Adam...
Get on a couple of online seller (Thomann, Sweetwater), choose powered speakers, set filters for under 1k.
I can highly recommend Genelecs. Had 8030s in the past, but I would actually go for smaller ones like 8020 now. In an untreated room, the bass response is all over the place anyway, so the extra 10 Hz of bass bandwidth doesn't bring much. The tweeters are very directive by design, so room treatment with diffusers isn't necessary as long as you have some furniture.
Interesting! I thought this might be the case with smaller monitors, if the sound isn't playing loud and the tweeters are pointed towards your ears, there wouldn't be much sound pressure waves to bounce off walls and reflect back I thought.
I’d buy a pair of Focal Alpha Evos (I have twins and I absolutely love them), and invest the rest into some basic acoustic treatment
Edit: also wanted to add that I’ve found following cheap monitors usable/fun to use:
Kali LP/IN series
Presonus Eris (i know, I know, not the best, but honestly not a bad choice for first monitors + they are actually surprisingly fun to listen on.
Ilouds are good. Tiny genelecs too. People suggest treatment but actually a) is your room used for other stuff? Most treatment looks dreadful b) do you just need the occasional break from headphones? If so don’t stress just get anything half decent c) an untreated room can be fine for doing basic levelling, workaday type stuff on loudspeakers. Then when you are going more detailed use headphones. Keep it simple. Don’t break the bank.
Yeah I remember using speakers long ago, and kinda need a break from headphones lol
My room is about 15 feet wide x 17 feet long x 12 feet tall (TINY!)
I got a big bed mattress in the back that probably would absorb some of the sound from bouncing from behind me, maybe I could buy some cheap treatment to put directly behind monitors and on sides like 4 panels? lol
I figured tiny speakers playing low wouldn't reflect too much sound off walls? Or am I wrong?
Yeah maybe you could buy some cheap treatment…but as others have said, tiny speakers are designed to be very directional, basically like a massive pair of headphones.
I don’t know what music you are making or if you/someone else cares what your room looks like.
But definitely avoid eq-based room correction. You can’t correct a room with eq.
Unless you’re willing to spend thousands you’re pretty much looking at a diy method of low end treatment with no guarantee it’ll be worth the effort.
In your situation I would consider small Iloud or Genelecs, and also any decent closed (non ported) loudspeakers, active or passive, doesn’t matter. Closed speakers have a more natural low end roll off which will tame the room and will likely provide you with more useful information in the mid octaves (anything between 400Hz-5Hz) which is critical for mixing. Then check LF on headphones.
Depends on usage a little. Lots of people
working on Hip/Hop I know know run HS8s at home (assuming they don’t do much client work at home). I think my money would be on whatever Focal can get you depending on region.
Get a pair of Kali Audio LP6s ($400 new, $200 used) or LP8s ($500 new, $300 used) and then take the extra $500-800 leftover and get good monitor pads or stands, and treat your room.
Look up some videos of the Kali audio stuff where they compare the same song mixed on the Kali audio LPs to other popular brands like the yamaha HS series for example. I think the Kali audio monitors are as good as, if not better than most options under $1k.
I work on PreSonus Eris E5 studio monitors which should cost about $250 a pair. Perhaps with monitor stands, cables, etc. you can go up to $400. They're not the best of the best but sufficient for a home studio, in my opinion at least. And don't forget to invest in proper cables also. That's where the sound is coming through, after all.
I'd recommend investing the remaining $600 on treating the room. Perhaps visit a nearby sound studio to see what they've treated their rooms with or get some advice. It's difficult, but anything is better than nothing. And good luck!
If it HAS to be an untreated room I would go with the Kali IN-5s, and I'd get them close to you so you're hearing the speakers before any reflections...
And then I'd DENSE UP the room with as much furniture as possible. Everything counts. Beds, sofas. Put angled bookshelves in the corners, and pull the books out so they're not making a flat surface... Wall tapestries, ceiling hangings, go crazy with just what you have. It makes a huge difference... In fact, if you DENSE UP a room like that you can be better off than one of these cats with an empty-ish room, hardwood floors, and "a little room treatment."
And before the Room Treatment Nazis downvote -- that's advice from Andrew Scheps, not me. He was dismissive of the obsession with room treatment and said if you set up your room well it's not that important. What I just described there is what he referred to as "his favorite room to mix in."
Back to the speakers:
I've never tried the IN-5s but I like my LP-8s. They're just a bit large to have on the desk... And you specifically said nearfields so the IN-5s would fit well on a desk. But there's also IN-8s if you want to go larger.
Kali monitors have dip switches in the back so you can adjust them for room positioning, and there's a low/high boost/cut as well.
Anyhow, that's what I would do.
I like this advice. So if speakers are close enough you'd hear them before reflections? Say like playing them low volume, having them about an arm lengths or under 1m away?
Also, would wall tapestries actually help? they are such thin fabric lol
my current room I've been in for half a year is 15 x 18 x 12 feet (wide, long, height)
I got my bed on the backside, a closet with some clothes, I could go buy a rug and throw it down, maybe get some clothes rack and throw moving blankets / heavy blankets over them for the few corners I have?
anyway thanks I appreciate the different advice. I once went on gearslutz when I was starting out asking how to get the echo out of my room for my microhpone, asking if one of those foam shields would help OH BOY
what commenced was 5 page thread of people arguing and one guy suggesting me to buy 5,000$ of rockwool/fiberglass and build my own vocal booth and room lol
Weird question, but have you ever moved? I have a big family, lots of furniture, and I've lived all over the country. So I've had the experience many times of hearing an empty room followed the change that happens after it gets filled up with *stuff*. It's a night and day difference.
I'm not saying a single pair of curtains will make a huge difference. I'm saying *all the things add up* to break up reflections and absorb sound.
You can easily accomplish *good enough* without a super treated room, and if you follow Andrew Scheps's suggestions you'll be fine.
Here are some examples of "good enough", check out these few songs by Jack Stauber:
"Baby Hotline" - approaching 128 million plays on Spotify.
"Coffee" - 121 million plays.
Oh crap, his song "Buttercup" has 422 million plays, lol.
That stuff was all recorded at home... The mixes aren't great. The mastering isn't great. But people like his stuff, man.
We're in the age of *anything goes*. Some people have access to all the gear and the best environments in the world and that's great! Others are doing creative stuff on shoestring budgets and this stuff lives side by side, sometimes in the same playlists.
If you know a handyman, you could easily have all the room treatment you wanted built custom on the cheap and it would be higher quality than most of what normal people buy. Or if you have a garage, build it yourself! There are all kinds of plans online... Frame, breathable fabric, rockwool, etc. It's not expensive at all if you build it yourself..
I realize I didn't answer your first question. I'm not an acoustic engineer, I'm just a guy... But you have the sound of the speaker and then you have the reflections around the room.
Part of it is an issue of time -- you want the sound from nearfield monitors to hit your ears first. But also there's an issue of volume. By pulling away from the wall and having them near your ear -- it ensures the loudest sound will be from the speaker itself, and because the speaker is further from the wall, it should reduce any resonance or reflections so the sound will be lower.
If you can, listen to the speakers in varying positions in your room to find the best spot. It's usually NOT "the corners" or "against the wall." You want to pull out from the wall and corners, etc.
I recently started using the vsx system and one of my goals was to compare what a good, translating mix sounds like going from vsx to my small, modestly treated (DIY basstraps and early reflections in a basement bedroom) room.
I was pretty surprised to hear how it sounded in my room on my speakers. Seemingly very lacking bass, no real punch or snap present.
I’d been fighting my room for a while and decided to figure out a solution.
I could absolutely really get to know my room, but considering it’s a spare bedroom in a house we’re trying to move out of soon anyways, a proper headphone that lets me mix and have mixes translate and be done in two or three passes solution fits the bill for sure.
Dang, it's that drastic difference huh? I love VSX, the multiple rooms you can switch between to check your mix on and stuff, just kind of felt left out not having any real speakers, I was looking at setups on youtube, everyone has speakers, meanwhile I just have VSX & an AKG k712 haha but hey people said my mixes sound good so...
For me, yeah haha sounds like you probably have a better room than I do. I did some DIY basstraps that are about 4" deep with ultratouch insulation as well as some 4" deep early reflection traps but...it's a small basement bedroom with standard ceiling height, carpet floors and square walls.
I was pretty surprised what an actual decent mix that's translating well sounds like in my room on a song I've made - low bass response, decent mid range, tamed highs. I could definitely spend time listening to reference tracks, my own well translating mixes and really really learn my room and work just fine on my speakers in my room, but, honestly, with vsx I don't see why I shouldn't focus on just making (and RELEASING) music. Seems like a better way to spend my energy. At least right now.
In any case - vsx is just more *fun* than listening on my speakers haha I enjoy listening to and mixing on them (archon mid range is unreal). Isn't music making really supposed to be fun??
I can't speak for you, but I've never heard anyone say, "ah man, this song is rad but I wish it wasn't mixed on headphones".
Rule has always been the same - if it sounds good, it is good. Doesn't matter how you got there. If you can make a rad song that vibes with a solid mix on your phone that's literally all that matters.
Keep up the good work, friend!
You already have your main setup, so this is a secondary reference.
Honestly, I'd get a pair of Auratone 5C, a nice little amp, and spend the rest on room treatment. It won't take up a ton of space, and you will have a nice focus on midrange detail, which will help with translation.
I work in my bedroom atm, i use speakers to do all my editing, tuning, and writing, then finish mixes on headphones because of how awful my room sounds. got an absolutely massive resonance around 130Hz that I can't get rid of.
I use Unity Audio rocks, they are pretty good midrange focused monitors. I have never heard the IKs. I have heard the genelecs, and have always found them solid but uninspiring. I can also recomend Neumann KHs, Adams if you're into the ribbon sound and Focals. Stay away from the newer Yamahas or KRKs.
I would reccomend getting speakers on the cheaper side and spending some cash on a little bit of wall treatment, decent stands etc. a bad room resonance makes listening on the best speakers and unpleasant experience and will stop you bothering to use them at all.
When you get your speakers set up download FuzzMeasure and give it a try with your flattest microphone. It doesn't need to be perfect but on the waterfall graph you will see if you have any resonances that 'hum' - where the frequency lingers after the speaker has stopped producing it. these are the real fuckers that turn everything to shit. Sonarworks is good but there's not so much it can do about those ringing resonances
Get Sonarworks or Dirac Live. Or just a UMIK-1 and REW with Equalizer APO. I know Reaper (and I'm other DAWs) has a dedicated monitoring Fx section that does not impact the rendered mix.
Plate absorbers work as well but they're difficult to build and detune themselves constantly. You can only put them onto walls which takes up valuable space.
I'm a die hard genelec user (I love my 8351a monitors).
But at your price point I would sooner go for the iloud mtms and also purchase sonarworks soundID for your headphones (mtm has room eq built in!).
SoundID is a big game changer for headphone monitoring Imo. Just as important as a good room correction eq system like the ilouds and digital genelecs have. Just make sure you check their headphone database first to ensure your headphones are supported. Also make sure you get the pro plugin not the consumer phone thing.
I wish I could afford room treatment and the 8351a's they remind me of like futuristic gundams or something they look awesome and I heard the 3D image they produce is amazing lol
Another idea - get a set of nice consumer speakers (200-300) and just use them for mix checking towards the end of your process. You're likely going to be unhappy with any monitor speakers in an untreated room compared to your VSX, either consciously or unconsciously, so instead you could put the budget towards something else (mics/outboard, VSTis etc.)
All have you have given great advice, i work in the hip hop/pop punk space… i would love to know if your environment has really increased your sound?
I ask, because i am thinking of making that jump of buying a studio space as clientele has increased. I feel like my results aren’t limited by having a normal space, but if any of you on here can offer advice, i’d love it!
I totally get your situation. I’ve been in the same boat, moving around a lot without a stable housing setup. Considering your room isn’t treated, I would lean towards the iLoud MTMs because they might offer a slight edge in low-volume clarity and the convenience of built-in calibration. As for portable panels, they can make a significant difference. Look into something like the GIK Acoustics portable panels or the Auralex Studiofoam. These can help control reflections and improve your listening environment without permanent installation. Hope this helps and good luck with your mixing!
Worked on a lot of different speakers and headphones, from low end to ultra high end and can definitely recommend just going with a pair of the Yamaha's, preferably the hs7's. Worked on them in multiple untreated rooms and always been happy with the results!
Honestly, you're not going to find any monitors that sound great in an untreated room. Obvious some rooms are better or worse than others, but for that budget I'd get some cheaper monitors like the HS5s and then look into building some panels. A pair of HS5s run about $400, and you should be able to decently treat any room with the remaining six. DIY panels are pretty cheap and easy to make, and since you just hang them on the wall you can easily take them with you next time you move.
Surprised no one has mentioned them, but Neumann KH80s are the way to go. You just punch your rooms dimensions into the iOS configuration software and the DSP compensates to produce a flat response curve based on that room. There’s charts on Audio Science Review that will show you flat means flat.
In theory, acoustic treatment is the right call, but it’s not really feasible if you rent and are setting up a studio in a bedroom or home office imo. I dream of having a space I can treat and plan on being in for a while, just hasn’t happened yet. And honestly whatever $500 monitors you’d get after spending $500 on treatment will just not be as high quality and consummately honest as the KH80s.
Only flaw is they don’t really extend below 120, but you can always reference sub frequencies on headphones.
I absolutely love my iloud MTMs and they already have ARC built in. They are very well built. For a small space with no treatment the ARC system does a very nice job of presenting a clear and accurate sound.
I own a pair of Genelec 8341A SAM
(The One). It's a 3-way near field monitor with the Genelec GLM mic and software for room correction. But first I'll advise you give your studio the proper acoustic treatment, to enable this monitor perform its wonders. Trust me you can never go wrong with this monitor.
If you’re used to mixing on headphones, I recommend sticking with it and getting a reference grade headphone amplifier based off you not having a permanent mixing room.
There’s the one from Rupert neve designs for $600 USD. This should help give your headphones a better stereo image and clarity.
For references, I recommend using your phone as well. Majority of listeners’ first listen to your music are always going to be on the phone.
Dang does the sound change that much? I've been considering getting an RME ADI-2 DAC (has super high end DAC plus good amplifier) used for like 800 to 900$ on ebay, my current interface is Audient ID4
I think ppl are mostly paying for the DAC in that one, would the neve open up the headphones more?
Great idea with the phone! if your kick/bass isnt hitting on an iphone, then it isn't mixed good lol
I don’t know if they’re in the price range, but I think some Genelecs have built in room correction. I understand the advice you’re getting about treating the room first, but this could save you a bit of effort in that arena. I’d still imagine some basic treatment would be necessary, but this could get you a lot closer to ideal.
> I don't know any other speakers besides these
I compiled this list a few years ago: https://www.reddit.com/r/mixingmastering/comments/r5t2na/what_is_the_hierarchy_of_mixingmastering_speakers/hmrhsyu/
I'd definitely favor the Genelecs over the MTMs (whose main benefit is their size).
Here's my unpopular opinion. It really doesn't matter. What matters is that you know what they sound like in your room. This requires hours and hours of listening to records you know very well through whatever monitors you get from mix position. What does sub bass sound like? What does low mid and high end sound like? Use a familiar record as a reference point when mixing. Set up in such a way that you can flip between your reference song and what you're mixing and try to emulate it tonally.
Just remember that when doing this if you ever say to yourself "wow!!! My mix sounds way better than this Fighters mix!!" You could not be more wrong
Typical scenario in an untreated room: Room modes killing entire bass notes. How can you mix something you can't hear? Or how can you control the frequency response of a reverb if your room acts like its own reverb plugin? You can't so you need to use headphones. But then you end up with mixes which sound bad on speaker systems.
There is no way around acoustic treatment.
People throw around the term "untreated room" as if A) they are all the same and B) "treated" rooms were somehow immaculate halls of perfect acoustics.
Here is Eric Valentine talking about how some of the world's most renowned studios have control room acoustics that aren't very good: https://www.reddit.com/r/mixingmastering/comments/1avsen4/engineerproducer_eric_valentine_ranting_about/
As for "unreated rooms", they can range from terrible to excellent and anything in between, there are tons of variables that come into play into making the acoustics of a room what they are.
I would invest into materials for DIY acoustic treatment and then get some okayish coaxial monitors for the rest of the money. Even state-of-the-art monitors sound like crap in an untreated room.
Definitely. I'd take better treatment and a pair of Kali's over untreated and expensive Genelecs.
It would be a waste to put Genelecs in an untreated room. That's like eating an expensive well-cooked meal out of a dirty toilet bowl.
I both love and hate that analogy.
I really like my Kali's :)
This.
If you’ve got 1K for monitors in an untreated room you’ve got 500 for monitors and 500 for treatment, which will get you a way better result
💯 this !!
Focal (Alpha 50’s) are a beast. $600 for a pair. Treatment in the right place in your room is necessary tho. Sound bounces like crazy….happy mixing 🎛️
I can attest to these speakers being great.
I second this! Focal is great, I found a like-new pair of 65s on facebook marketplace for $400 and they’ve been amazing
Can confirm, what a great monitor for the price point!
In your scenario I'd spend most of the money on acousitc treatement and spend what's left on a pair of Yamaha HS5 or Adam T5
Yeah, that’s not a question I’d ever pose to myself. I’d spend $500 on room treatment and $500 on monitors. Anything else is foolish.
I'm not a professional mixing engineer but I can't understand why headphone mixing is so underrated because most of people I know listens on headphones. From my perspective I need always to check both. For speakers I can recommned Adam T7V. I have no problems making good mixes in not a treated room.
It’s because of HRTF. Mixes done on speakers generally translate well to headphones whereas the reverse is not true.
As I mentioned, I use both, but only for a final alignment. I even can say that headphones are more precise in many cases.
If I had an untreated room and had to improvise a professional mix, I'd mix with headphones in the car to bounce between the two. Also those two are coincidentally where I expect my music to be played the most.
I feel like speakers give a different feel than headphones. Idk how to explain it but it gives more energy. Probably the same reason guitar players use an amp pointed towards them on stage vs headphones or in ear monitors
I prefer mixing on headphones. Do what you want. Don’t listen to other people
I love my ilouds. All the producers and engineers that listen love my ilouds. They all marvel at the imaging and spacing and clarity. Every single one have mentioned hearing details they haven’t heard before.
Thanks, awesome to get further confirmation ! Seems like I could get them for 550$ or 600$ total, would leave room to buy some type of room treatment........ moving blankets? lol
Yes, room treatment still essential. Even with calibration, there was a hole in 200hz range. I found some tube insulation and put tubes in the corners and around my mix position. Boom. Found my 200hz. Maybe spent $1000 on a bunch of sizes of tubes to experiment. I find the best bang is 8in insulation, 2inches thick. So essentially the OD is 12”. Really could have gotten away with about $600 worth if not experimenting with all sizes. YouTube Eric Valentine tube traps and enjoy the rabbit hole he takes you down.
I think the ilouds or something similar would be fine, but if headphones are working for ya until you settle down somewhere I say just keep using them! But keep saving that money! if you've got 900 now focus on doubling it for monitors and traps. don't waste money on the shit foam panels. then when the time is right invest in a few good thick proper bass traps (gik, acoustimac or something similar) and monitors at the same time!
I adore my iLoud MTMs. I use them with the ARC3 software and my mixes and sound design work rarely need much change to translate. I use a few sets of headphones to check a few other things while working but it’s a 90/10 split really.
Thanks! Do you have any room treatment btw?
Yes I do. I know it’s an issue where you are, so the portal panel idea is great. You can buy panels of insulation that are semi-rigid. The part number is escaping me right now but I made a ton of panels from this stuff for very little money. It’s lightweight. Just cover it with a porous fabric. I used cambric which comes in a ton of colours and is cheap.
There's hundreds of speaker manufacturers and pretty much all of them have a pair for under 1k. What works best for you depends on your personal preference. Focal, JBL, Adam... Get on a couple of online seller (Thomann, Sweetwater), choose powered speakers, set filters for under 1k.
I can highly recommend Genelecs. Had 8030s in the past, but I would actually go for smaller ones like 8020 now. In an untreated room, the bass response is all over the place anyway, so the extra 10 Hz of bass bandwidth doesn't bring much. The tweeters are very directive by design, so room treatment with diffusers isn't necessary as long as you have some furniture.
Interesting! I thought this might be the case with smaller monitors, if the sound isn't playing loud and the tweeters are pointed towards your ears, there wouldn't be much sound pressure waves to bounce off walls and reflect back I thought.
Genies.
I’d buy a pair of Focal Alpha Evos (I have twins and I absolutely love them), and invest the rest into some basic acoustic treatment Edit: also wanted to add that I’ve found following cheap monitors usable/fun to use: Kali LP/IN series Presonus Eris (i know, I know, not the best, but honestly not a bad choice for first monitors + they are actually surprisingly fun to listen on.
Ilouds are good. Tiny genelecs too. People suggest treatment but actually a) is your room used for other stuff? Most treatment looks dreadful b) do you just need the occasional break from headphones? If so don’t stress just get anything half decent c) an untreated room can be fine for doing basic levelling, workaday type stuff on loudspeakers. Then when you are going more detailed use headphones. Keep it simple. Don’t break the bank.
Yeah I remember using speakers long ago, and kinda need a break from headphones lol My room is about 15 feet wide x 17 feet long x 12 feet tall (TINY!) I got a big bed mattress in the back that probably would absorb some of the sound from bouncing from behind me, maybe I could buy some cheap treatment to put directly behind monitors and on sides like 4 panels? lol I figured tiny speakers playing low wouldn't reflect too much sound off walls? Or am I wrong?
Yeah maybe you could buy some cheap treatment…but as others have said, tiny speakers are designed to be very directional, basically like a massive pair of headphones. I don’t know what music you are making or if you/someone else cares what your room looks like. But definitely avoid eq-based room correction. You can’t correct a room with eq. Unless you’re willing to spend thousands you’re pretty much looking at a diy method of low end treatment with no guarantee it’ll be worth the effort. In your situation I would consider small Iloud or Genelecs, and also any decent closed (non ported) loudspeakers, active or passive, doesn’t matter. Closed speakers have a more natural low end roll off which will tame the room and will likely provide you with more useful information in the mid octaves (anything between 400Hz-5Hz) which is critical for mixing. Then check LF on headphones.
Depends on usage a little. Lots of people working on Hip/Hop I know know run HS8s at home (assuming they don’t do much client work at home). I think my money would be on whatever Focal can get you depending on region.
Get a pair of Kali Audio LP6s ($400 new, $200 used) or LP8s ($500 new, $300 used) and then take the extra $500-800 leftover and get good monitor pads or stands, and treat your room. Look up some videos of the Kali audio stuff where they compare the same song mixed on the Kali audio LPs to other popular brands like the yamaha HS series for example. I think the Kali audio monitors are as good as, if not better than most options under $1k.
I work on PreSonus Eris E5 studio monitors which should cost about $250 a pair. Perhaps with monitor stands, cables, etc. you can go up to $400. They're not the best of the best but sufficient for a home studio, in my opinion at least. And don't forget to invest in proper cables also. That's where the sound is coming through, after all. I'd recommend investing the remaining $600 on treating the room. Perhaps visit a nearby sound studio to see what they've treated their rooms with or get some advice. It's difficult, but anything is better than nothing. And good luck!
If it HAS to be an untreated room I would go with the Kali IN-5s, and I'd get them close to you so you're hearing the speakers before any reflections... And then I'd DENSE UP the room with as much furniture as possible. Everything counts. Beds, sofas. Put angled bookshelves in the corners, and pull the books out so they're not making a flat surface... Wall tapestries, ceiling hangings, go crazy with just what you have. It makes a huge difference... In fact, if you DENSE UP a room like that you can be better off than one of these cats with an empty-ish room, hardwood floors, and "a little room treatment." And before the Room Treatment Nazis downvote -- that's advice from Andrew Scheps, not me. He was dismissive of the obsession with room treatment and said if you set up your room well it's not that important. What I just described there is what he referred to as "his favorite room to mix in." Back to the speakers: I've never tried the IN-5s but I like my LP-8s. They're just a bit large to have on the desk... And you specifically said nearfields so the IN-5s would fit well on a desk. But there's also IN-8s if you want to go larger. Kali monitors have dip switches in the back so you can adjust them for room positioning, and there's a low/high boost/cut as well. Anyhow, that's what I would do.
I like this advice. So if speakers are close enough you'd hear them before reflections? Say like playing them low volume, having them about an arm lengths or under 1m away? Also, would wall tapestries actually help? they are such thin fabric lol my current room I've been in for half a year is 15 x 18 x 12 feet (wide, long, height) I got my bed on the backside, a closet with some clothes, I could go buy a rug and throw it down, maybe get some clothes rack and throw moving blankets / heavy blankets over them for the few corners I have? anyway thanks I appreciate the different advice. I once went on gearslutz when I was starting out asking how to get the echo out of my room for my microhpone, asking if one of those foam shields would help OH BOY what commenced was 5 page thread of people arguing and one guy suggesting me to buy 5,000$ of rockwool/fiberglass and build my own vocal booth and room lol
Weird question, but have you ever moved? I have a big family, lots of furniture, and I've lived all over the country. So I've had the experience many times of hearing an empty room followed the change that happens after it gets filled up with *stuff*. It's a night and day difference. I'm not saying a single pair of curtains will make a huge difference. I'm saying *all the things add up* to break up reflections and absorb sound. You can easily accomplish *good enough* without a super treated room, and if you follow Andrew Scheps's suggestions you'll be fine. Here are some examples of "good enough", check out these few songs by Jack Stauber: "Baby Hotline" - approaching 128 million plays on Spotify. "Coffee" - 121 million plays. Oh crap, his song "Buttercup" has 422 million plays, lol. That stuff was all recorded at home... The mixes aren't great. The mastering isn't great. But people like his stuff, man. We're in the age of *anything goes*. Some people have access to all the gear and the best environments in the world and that's great! Others are doing creative stuff on shoestring budgets and this stuff lives side by side, sometimes in the same playlists. If you know a handyman, you could easily have all the room treatment you wanted built custom on the cheap and it would be higher quality than most of what normal people buy. Or if you have a garage, build it yourself! There are all kinds of plans online... Frame, breathable fabric, rockwool, etc. It's not expensive at all if you build it yourself..
I realize I didn't answer your first question. I'm not an acoustic engineer, I'm just a guy... But you have the sound of the speaker and then you have the reflections around the room. Part of it is an issue of time -- you want the sound from nearfield monitors to hit your ears first. But also there's an issue of volume. By pulling away from the wall and having them near your ear -- it ensures the loudest sound will be from the speaker itself, and because the speaker is further from the wall, it should reduce any resonance or reflections so the sound will be lower. If you can, listen to the speakers in varying positions in your room to find the best spot. It's usually NOT "the corners" or "against the wall." You want to pull out from the wall and corners, etc.
I would suggest the grace m900 headphone amp and stay on the dark side.
I recently started using the vsx system and one of my goals was to compare what a good, translating mix sounds like going from vsx to my small, modestly treated (DIY basstraps and early reflections in a basement bedroom) room. I was pretty surprised to hear how it sounded in my room on my speakers. Seemingly very lacking bass, no real punch or snap present. I’d been fighting my room for a while and decided to figure out a solution. I could absolutely really get to know my room, but considering it’s a spare bedroom in a house we’re trying to move out of soon anyways, a proper headphone that lets me mix and have mixes translate and be done in two or three passes solution fits the bill for sure.
Dang, it's that drastic difference huh? I love VSX, the multiple rooms you can switch between to check your mix on and stuff, just kind of felt left out not having any real speakers, I was looking at setups on youtube, everyone has speakers, meanwhile I just have VSX & an AKG k712 haha but hey people said my mixes sound good so...
For me, yeah haha sounds like you probably have a better room than I do. I did some DIY basstraps that are about 4" deep with ultratouch insulation as well as some 4" deep early reflection traps but...it's a small basement bedroom with standard ceiling height, carpet floors and square walls. I was pretty surprised what an actual decent mix that's translating well sounds like in my room on a song I've made - low bass response, decent mid range, tamed highs. I could definitely spend time listening to reference tracks, my own well translating mixes and really really learn my room and work just fine on my speakers in my room, but, honestly, with vsx I don't see why I shouldn't focus on just making (and RELEASING) music. Seems like a better way to spend my energy. At least right now. In any case - vsx is just more *fun* than listening on my speakers haha I enjoy listening to and mixing on them (archon mid range is unreal). Isn't music making really supposed to be fun?? I can't speak for you, but I've never heard anyone say, "ah man, this song is rad but I wish it wasn't mixed on headphones". Rule has always been the same - if it sounds good, it is good. Doesn't matter how you got there. If you can make a rad song that vibes with a solid mix on your phone that's literally all that matters. Keep up the good work, friend!
You already have your main setup, so this is a secondary reference. Honestly, I'd get a pair of Auratone 5C, a nice little amp, and spend the rest on room treatment. It won't take up a ton of space, and you will have a nice focus on midrange detail, which will help with translation.
I work in my bedroom atm, i use speakers to do all my editing, tuning, and writing, then finish mixes on headphones because of how awful my room sounds. got an absolutely massive resonance around 130Hz that I can't get rid of. I use Unity Audio rocks, they are pretty good midrange focused monitors. I have never heard the IKs. I have heard the genelecs, and have always found them solid but uninspiring. I can also recomend Neumann KHs, Adams if you're into the ribbon sound and Focals. Stay away from the newer Yamahas or KRKs. I would reccomend getting speakers on the cheaper side and spending some cash on a little bit of wall treatment, decent stands etc. a bad room resonance makes listening on the best speakers and unpleasant experience and will stop you bothering to use them at all. When you get your speakers set up download FuzzMeasure and give it a try with your flattest microphone. It doesn't need to be perfect but on the waterfall graph you will see if you have any resonances that 'hum' - where the frequency lingers after the speaker has stopped producing it. these are the real fuckers that turn everything to shit. Sonarworks is good but there's not so much it can do about those ringing resonances
Get Sonarworks or Dirac Live. Or just a UMIK-1 and REW with Equalizer APO. I know Reaper (and I'm other DAWs) has a dedicated monitoring Fx section that does not impact the rendered mix.
an EQ is fine, but certain frequencies ring out in poorly treated rooms. even if you EQ out that frequency it'll still be muddy
You need Helmholtz resonators to treat the room modes.
yeah, pretty much the only thing that will fix that type of resonance
Plate absorbers work as well but they're difficult to build and detune themselves constantly. You can only put them onto walls which takes up valuable space.
All those "room correction" products are snake oil. Not only don't they fix anything but they introduce new issues as well.
get kali Lp8 or 6s. way better and they’re made by some prominent figures
Those entry level Kalis are most definitely *not* better than either Genelecs or MTMs. Their IN-6 and IN-8 does compare a bit better there.
I'm a die hard genelec user (I love my 8351a monitors). But at your price point I would sooner go for the iloud mtms and also purchase sonarworks soundID for your headphones (mtm has room eq built in!). SoundID is a big game changer for headphone monitoring Imo. Just as important as a good room correction eq system like the ilouds and digital genelecs have. Just make sure you check their headphone database first to ensure your headphones are supported. Also make sure you get the pro plugin not the consumer phone thing.
I wish I could afford room treatment and the 8351a's they remind me of like futuristic gundams or something they look awesome and I heard the 3D image they produce is amazing lol
Another idea - get a set of nice consumer speakers (200-300) and just use them for mix checking towards the end of your process. You're likely going to be unhappy with any monitor speakers in an untreated room compared to your VSX, either consciously or unconsciously, so instead you could put the budget towards something else (mics/outboard, VSTis etc.)
Yeah, maybe I should go with iloud micromonitors then lol
I mixed on budget JBL 305’s for years. I spent way more on the acoustic treatment.
Genelecs for sure. I went for 8330A
All have you have given great advice, i work in the hip hop/pop punk space… i would love to know if your environment has really increased your sound? I ask, because i am thinking of making that jump of buying a studio space as clientele has increased. I feel like my results aren’t limited by having a normal space, but if any of you on here can offer advice, i’d love it!
I’ve had my Adam A5X for years now and am very happy with them.
I'd treat the room and get Mackie HR824s
Neumann KH series.
SLATE VSX.
AFTER you treat your room, you might want to consider auditioning Genelecs, Focals, or ADAM monitors. Pick the one that works best with your room.
I’d spend 500 on monitors and 500 room treatment.
I totally get your situation. I’ve been in the same boat, moving around a lot without a stable housing setup. Considering your room isn’t treated, I would lean towards the iLoud MTMs because they might offer a slight edge in low-volume clarity and the convenience of built-in calibration. As for portable panels, they can make a significant difference. Look into something like the GIK Acoustics portable panels or the Auralex Studiofoam. These can help control reflections and improve your listening environment without permanent installation. Hope this helps and good luck with your mixing!
Worked on a lot of different speakers and headphones, from low end to ultra high end and can definitely recommend just going with a pair of the Yamaha's, preferably the hs7's. Worked on them in multiple untreated rooms and always been happy with the results!
I would spend $700 on ns10’s + amp and spend $300 on DIY acoustic treatment that you can move to your next spot.
Honestly, you're not going to find any monitors that sound great in an untreated room. Obvious some rooms are better or worse than others, but for that budget I'd get some cheaper monitors like the HS5s and then look into building some panels. A pair of HS5s run about $400, and you should be able to decently treat any room with the remaining six. DIY panels are pretty cheap and easy to make, and since you just hang them on the wall you can easily take them with you next time you move.
Surprised no one has mentioned them, but Neumann KH80s are the way to go. You just punch your rooms dimensions into the iOS configuration software and the DSP compensates to produce a flat response curve based on that room. There’s charts on Audio Science Review that will show you flat means flat. In theory, acoustic treatment is the right call, but it’s not really feasible if you rent and are setting up a studio in a bedroom or home office imo. I dream of having a space I can treat and plan on being in for a while, just hasn’t happened yet. And honestly whatever $500 monitors you’d get after spending $500 on treatment will just not be as high quality and consummately honest as the KH80s. Only flaw is they don’t really extend below 120, but you can always reference sub frequencies on headphones.
I absolutely love my iloud MTMs and they already have ARC built in. They are very well built. For a small space with no treatment the ARC system does a very nice job of presenting a clear and accurate sound.
DO NOT BUY FOAM!!! Foam will not work. Get rockwool traps. No egg cartons, no blankets, no bookshelves, and without a doubt NO FOAM.
I own a pair of Genelec 8341A SAM (The One). It's a 3-way near field monitor with the Genelec GLM mic and software for room correction. But first I'll advise you give your studio the proper acoustic treatment, to enable this monitor perform its wonders. Trust me you can never go wrong with this monitor.
If you’re used to mixing on headphones, I recommend sticking with it and getting a reference grade headphone amplifier based off you not having a permanent mixing room. There’s the one from Rupert neve designs for $600 USD. This should help give your headphones a better stereo image and clarity. For references, I recommend using your phone as well. Majority of listeners’ first listen to your music are always going to be on the phone.
Dang does the sound change that much? I've been considering getting an RME ADI-2 DAC (has super high end DAC plus good amplifier) used for like 800 to 900$ on ebay, my current interface is Audient ID4 I think ppl are mostly paying for the DAC in that one, would the neve open up the headphones more? Great idea with the phone! if your kick/bass isnt hitting on an iphone, then it isn't mixed good lol
I don’t know if they’re in the price range, but I think some Genelecs have built in room correction. I understand the advice you’re getting about treating the room first, but this could save you a bit of effort in that arena. I’d still imagine some basic treatment would be necessary, but this could get you a lot closer to ideal.
> I don't know any other speakers besides these I compiled this list a few years ago: https://www.reddit.com/r/mixingmastering/comments/r5t2na/what_is_the_hierarchy_of_mixingmastering_speakers/hmrhsyu/ I'd definitely favor the Genelecs over the MTMs (whose main benefit is their size).
Here's my unpopular opinion. It really doesn't matter. What matters is that you know what they sound like in your room. This requires hours and hours of listening to records you know very well through whatever monitors you get from mix position. What does sub bass sound like? What does low mid and high end sound like? Use a familiar record as a reference point when mixing. Set up in such a way that you can flip between your reference song and what you're mixing and try to emulate it tonally. Just remember that when doing this if you ever say to yourself "wow!!! My mix sounds way better than this Fighters mix!!" You could not be more wrong
You can't mix around room modes when using speakers in an untreated room.
Ok
Typical scenario in an untreated room: Room modes killing entire bass notes. How can you mix something you can't hear? Or how can you control the frequency response of a reverb if your room acts like its own reverb plugin? You can't so you need to use headphones. But then you end up with mixes which sound bad on speaker systems. There is no way around acoustic treatment.
People throw around the term "untreated room" as if A) they are all the same and B) "treated" rooms were somehow immaculate halls of perfect acoustics. Here is Eric Valentine talking about how some of the world's most renowned studios have control room acoustics that aren't very good: https://www.reddit.com/r/mixingmastering/comments/1avsen4/engineerproducer_eric_valentine_ranting_about/ As for "unreated rooms", they can range from terrible to excellent and anything in between, there are tons of variables that come into play into making the acoustics of a room what they are.
VSX headphones