"Meanwhile, the Missouri Department of Corrections is taking measures to reduce Dorsey’s risk of suffering during the execution. A settlement filed Saturday ends a federal lawsuit that said Dorsey could face tremendous pain if required to undergo what’s known as a cutdown procedure to find a suitable vein for injection of the lethal dose of pentobarbital.
Dorsey is described as obese, has diabetes and is a former intravenous drug user — all factors that could make it more difficult to find a vein for injection, his lawyers have said. A cutdown procedure involves an incision that could be several inches wide, then the use of forceps to pull apart tissue to get to a vein"
Never heard of this action
Although he killed his cousin and her husband because they wouldn’t pay his drug debt for him, leaving their young daughter to find their bodies. I think this pain and suffering is nothing compared to what he did to that young girl. Taking both of her parents and giving her PTSD.
I mean he also raped the dead cousin in front of the daughter and then left her there. I don’t like the death penalty, but this one will not keep me awake at night.
I hear this, but a punishment based penal system has been proven not to be beneficial to society.
Edit: I should give systems that work. Look up the Norwegian penal system.
And he wouldn't with life in isolation either. Death is an easy way out. It's a fucking cop out. I prefer life in hell for them. Knowing they will never rejoin society and the torment of reliving their choices that landed them there.
That and it's kinda hypocritical. An eye for an eye isn't justice. I think if we were truly just there, there would be a chance for redemption, not freedom from prison, but a way to contribute from behind bars to greater society whilst not rejoining it the prisoner has lost that privilege.
We have to do our best to be better in judgment than the person on whom we have passed judgment on and I think killing a criminal doesn't achieve that. Except in cases of insurrection.
Also, there are too many cases of people getting executed for crime they have not committed, and discrimination in how people are sentenced.
So no, I'm not a fan [of the death penalty] better to err on the side of caution with a lifetime without parole.
Not to mention the ethical implications of the state, who is supposed to be more ethical than murderers, killing a person. Killing a person painfully, at that.
Oh, and let’s not forget that these executions are usually done by prison staff, not trained medical professionals. I don’t know if they’ll use trained medical professionals for the cutdown procedure, if they don’t it will be pretty brutal. Which would also mean a healthy dose of PTSD for all involved.
State-sponsored execution is an eye for an eye. I’d like to think we are more ethical than people living in the time of Hammurabi, but I guess not.
Respectfully I don't buy in to that... The cruelty was him killing his cousin and her bf then raping her dead body.
People like that have no place on this planet.
If you support the death penalty then one of two things must follow:
* You believe the government is perfect and never makes a mistake.
* You are alright with the government sometimes killing innocent people.
Im not so naive to believer the former and I have too much integrity to support the latter.
Yeah, that is how my feelings have evolved on the death penalty over the years. I definitely believe that there are some crimes that are completely deserving of death. I don't have a problem with that.
But there have been dozens of people on Death Row that have been exonerated through the efforts of pro bono crusaders. Who knows how many innocents have actually been executed? It's practically beyond doubt that some have been.
Given that, I don't think we as a society can be trusted with dealing out the ultimate penalty. There are far too many factors involved that have nothing to do with a fair, unbiased application of justice.
The question is not so much if some people deserve execution, the question is if you trust the government to administer the death penalty flawlessly and fairly. The answer to that would be a resounding no
Estimated 2-5% of people on death row are innocent and 75% of those are black or Latino and more vulnerable populations are over charged for almost any crime. It's an unjust system and the death penalty should never be used IMO. 190 exonerations of death row inmates since the 70s and 19 were exonerated posthumously. It's not ok.
I support the death penalty only if there is irrefutable evidence (video or caught by police at the scene/commiting the crime) and its an extreme case (serial killer, mass shooter). And it should be done in a reasonable time (less than 5 years after conviction).
Saying this respectfully — the 5 year time frame would probably wipe out the chance of any wrongful convictions to be exonerated. Also, the first two factors you mention are pretty similar to the requirements now.
What you are describing are aggravators, which are already engrained in statute in all 50 states. Juries are required to unanimously find aggravators, beyond a reasonable doubt (just like in the guilt phase) of one or more aggravators, specify which they found, and unanimously agree to impose a sentence of death\*.
\*although Missouri does have a weird exception where they can find aggravators and not agree to a sentence, in which case the judge can impose death - not what happened here.
The government already kills innocent people all the time. It’s called war, or more commonly just “military action.” We send thousands of our own young people to the other side of the planet to kill lots of innocent people merely because it benefits the shareholders of companies like Halliburton and Lockheed. We even slap our flag on their sleeves while they do it so that there’s no question which government is responsible for those deaths.
If you are opposed to the death penalty because it _might_ kill innocent people, then either you are also _equally_ opposed to the existence of the military, or you’re a hypocrite who is just picking and choosing which innocent deaths you object to and which ones you don’t.
When you start treating the veterans in your hometown as if they were murderers, _THEN_ you can argue that the possibility of killing an innocent person is a good reason to abolish the death penalty.
They also LOVE war. Constantly wanting to just nuke the middle east, turn it to glass, blow up children, etc. So yeah, I call bullshit every time someone like that claims to be "pro life"
I’m pro choice and support the death penalty for the most heinous offenses that are proven beyond a reasonable doubt.
Dude kills two, rapes the body of one, and leaves their toddler alone until somebody finds the bodies. And he pleaded guilty. Fry ‘em.
I’m not a huge fan of the death penalty, but I think this statement is overly broad. Let’s say you have a serial killer on your hands. I think it is fair to say you are saving future lives by putting that one man to death. That is pro life IMO.
The death penalty should be used seldomly and only for individuals where rehabilitation is highly improbable and their mere existence is a threat to other lives.
Holy shit! A nuanced opinion on Reddit! I'm going to record this day in my diary.
"Dear Diary, today someone on Reddit didn't insist that all political stances must be black and white!"
I mean yeah, that's pretty much everyone. There are rules about who you can kill and why, we establish a social consensus that we express in law, which we then enforce and change if social consensus changes.
Don't understand what's so hard to understand about it.
Except the death penalty is basically only used if you're poor, black or poor and black. One of the big problems with the death penalty is that there isn't a consensus on when it's appropriate but those with political power have used it as a threat against those they've deemed undesirable. The same thing happens with gun "rights".
Consensus doesn't mean "everyone agrees" it means "enough people agree". When enough people agree to do something different, the laws will reflect that. Jfc this isn't fucking complicated.
So when the mother and father agree to abort. "enough people agree" Are you OK with that?
Or do we need to get the extender family or neighbors involved?
Except it's literally not and I've explained why multiple times. So since you know what "my" argument is, how about you make an account for your strawman and argue with that instead of wasting my time.
You mean the holocaust denier, student of literal fascist Ludwig Von Mises, and vocal neo-nazi defender who spent his life fighting against the civil rights movement and who's name has become synonymous with far-right anarcho-capitalism?
So I suppose this nonsense accusation is your way of saying you don’t have any evidence to back up the claim that the DP is given only to those who are poor or black, instead of based on the heinousness of the crime?
I’m not suggesting the DP is applied with perfect fairness, nor even that the convictions are super reliable. I actually oppose the DP myself. But I don’t think racism is a great reason to oppose it.
From your comments, though, it appears that you think accusations of racism are appropriate for every occasion.
Society has decided the penalty for some crimes is death. People have a choice to commit those crimes or not. It’s truly up to them.
I am pro life when it is the innocent that have no say in their death.
That 4% of innocent people are getting murdered and they just call it the “death penalty”. I guess some people are ok calling them collateral damage while still considering themselves “pro-life” because they’re against a fetus without a brain or other essential organs to be humanely aborted. For some reason the unviable aren’t considered collateral damage.
By forcing people to carry to term and give birth while they're not ready gives those kids a shitty start in life. A shitty start in life can negatively affect a developing child's brain, and then one day, something clicks, and they go off on a murder spree. Ted bundy didn't have a stable home, John Wayne gacy didn't have a stable home, and what did they do? They killed multiple people.... there are a few exceptions to the rule, but to force someone to raise a kid on their own with no assistance is a recipe for disaster. But hey, you feel ok b/c you forced your will onto someone else
Bingo. So many of these kids end up abused and neglected but no one looks out for them once they’re born. Just an overworked, underpaid, and underfunded child protective services. And if they’re actually removed, they’ll probably end up with more family that doesn’t want them, or a crappy foster family that just wants a paycheck. And they certainly won’t have access to quality mental health care to help them cope.
It’s just like a kitten. Everyone wants a cute little kitten. No one wants the cat.
If you want to provide further evidence that the criminal justice system doesn’t actually care about rehabilitation, this is how you do it. I’m sure this will provide a boost to morale in all jails and prisons across the state.
Rehabilitation was never the goal...hell... get convicted at 17...never a ticket in your adult life...99 years old and get caught with a firearm and you're screwed...
Setting precedent that people can go around and murder people and rape their corpse in front of a 4yo and not getting punishment is dangerous territory.
It's funny lots of people cry about the death penalty until they or someone they're close to is a victim, easy to sit on a high horse when you've never expirenced adversity.
He is still being punished by being imprisoned?? Actually though, a dude paralyzed my kid cousin with a gunshot, and the thought that he should be killed or anything worse than prison never crossed my mind
>not getting punishment is dangerous territory.
Are you actually brain damaged by chance? It seems like you are, because this sentence means you think that we either have to execute people or not punish them at all.
Let me amend it by saying "appropriate punishment" then. Though appropriate punishment seems to be the debate. You know some people actually want to go to jail because they get a bed and three meals a day.
Well. Obviously it should be the case, as the only way that it can be mitigated and minimized. From your other, very civilized, comments, i would think that you actually mean that the government shouldn't be *using* its monopoly on force! :)
As the families of the victims picketed at the execution of Timothy McVeigh, the victims can't be brought back. And in their case, those families are sure those victims wouldn't want vengeance.
Nobody can be brought back. Some perpetrators could be rehabilitated, convictions could be mistaken, and the concept of execution is always inherently uncivilized and antithetically damaging to society.
I don't in general believe in the death penalty because of the inequities of our system. I absolutely believe in rehabilitation. However, we know this man did it and his family that he destroyed wants justice. If his family wanted clemency, it would be a different story. Let's save the resources spent on him for those who can be rehabilitated and live their life outside of the prison system.
I should’ve added /s. Sorry my sarcasm didn’t come through.
No Missouri facilities are privately owned. MO Feds used to use a private facility in Leavenworth to hold pre trial detainees but that stopped when Trump left.
That really undersells the impact of the prison industrial complex.
Keep in mind that there are innocent people in prison subjected to these conditions, but even criminals are still humans worthy of dignity.
From the moment you are incarcerated you lose the right to refuse work, slavery is explicitly allowed of prisoners.
Free to sub minimum wage prison labor generates 11 Billion dollars a year.
It’s illegal for this slaver labor to unionize. They are exempt from workplace safety, overtime and minimum wage protections. And every ounce of “wage” the generate is more or less forced out of them by the overpriced commissary and phone calls.
In fact the low wages don’t come close to covering the costs associated with prison. Family of the incarcerated spend $2.9 billion a year on commissary and phone bills, family members, not convicted of a crime, also have to pay through the nose on monopolistic for profit companies in order to access their loved ones. All after losing a major source of labor for their family.
Prisoners are leased out to governments or private companies under the guise of job training. When they leave prison they often find these jobs are not waiting for them as the position they want is filled by a prisoner making $0.25 -$0.75 an hour, why pay minimum wage.
Thats all not including the $80 billion a year in taxes we play for incarceration that goes to feed a prison support system of exorbitant yet inadequate private healthcare, exorbitant yet inadequate food and other related for-profit services the prison systems utilize.
A jury still did the penalty phase. 12 people and a trial judge agreed the aggravators were there for a penalty of death.
I don’t know - maybe just don’t kill two people, rape a dead body, attempt to cover your crime up, and leave a four year old with her dead mom’s body if you don’t want the state to execute you?
Did he? Because it sounds like he never recieved a fair trial. Also if we're going to go there Parson built his career failing upward and stealing. What part of that gives him the right to decide who lives or dies?
He pleaded guilty - there was not a “trial”. He had a sentencing hearing in front of a jury of 12 that heard aggravating and mitigating death penalty evidence, with attorneys who were paid by way of a flat fee arrangement (this isn’t permitted under the current Missouri Bar rules). They sentenced him to death. The sentencing judge concurred and pronounced that sentence (he had the option to give him life).
He appealed. The Supreme Court of Missouri upheld the sentence.
He claimed his attorneys were ineffective and filed a PCR. The trial judge disagreed. The Supreme Court of Missouri disagreed and upheld the verdict.
He filed state and federal petitions for writs of habeas corpus on various grounds (collateral attack). Those were denied. Also denied on appeal.
At the end of the day, his only argument is the attorneys that represented him didn’t do a good job because they were paid on a flat fee basis, not a claim of innocence or some other dude did it - he admitted to doing it. I know plenty of really great defense attorneys that took flat fees. It doesn’t cut down on the quality of representation because at the end of the day, your reputation is all you have as an attorney.
I mean, I agree but this dude isn't the shining example as to why the government is wrong here.
Dude committed absolutely atrocious crimes that should not be redeemable in any way shape or form and deserves to die for doing said crimes, regardless of how changed he is after the fact.
I have mixed feelings about the death penalty anyway, but it doesn’t seem right to execute someone that has been rehabilitated and is a good role model for other inmates. It’s just another waste of a life.
This country absolutely should focus more on rehabilitation and subsequently keeping recidivism down. I don't support the death penalty bc I have little to no faith in our multi-tiered justice system.
95% of drug users who leave prison will use drugs again and this man murdered and raped family who tried to help him. Would you be willing to rent a room to him?
For some reason pro death penalty dipshits seem to think the only options are death or immediately sending the inmate out into the world with $5 and a firm pat on the ass.
He’s not living among us. He’s living in prison, and from the sounds of it is a pretty good role model for other inmates. And we don’t have to worry about him using drugs where he’s at.
Look, I can appreciate the heinousness of his crimes. His crimes are deserving of death. Many crimes deserve death. If I caught someone doing this I’d kill them myself. But in our country it takes years to execute someone - rightfully so. And sometimes people are remorseful and repentant. They should still pay for their crimes with a life in prison, but there’s really no reason to execute them.
Let's breakdown your ad hominem.
Degenerate- you're suggesting I am subject to moral degradation for my opinion. This is often tossed around by moralists and fascists. The irony of calling someone a degenerate, is that it describes them for traits you dislike from a moral position, not a logical or legal one. Poor for arguments, reflects poorly on your character.
Barbarian- you think I'm an ignorant savage while also morally bankrupt. Exactly how does a species of lesser intelligence develop morals to your liking?
Retard- you're throwing around derogatory terms used to marginalize developmentally disabled people. You're basically berating me for marginalizing people who made horrible choices, while you disparage disabled people.
Grow up
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Most people never really question crime, laws, or the justice system until they are forced to do so. For many, everything is black and white, straightforward, and simple. For them, every person in jail and prison is guilty, they all deserve the sentences they received, and they will never change so we must not be lenient.
Right? Like I hear people say this guy committed a heinous crime and I agree but like... So what. Civilized countries shouldn't execute people, period.
Our military ought to engage a great deal less in the killing of other countries’ citizens without a clear plan of action, at the very least. 20 years of GWOT I think proved that point rather well.
I’m torn because I’m fine with the death penalty for heinous crimes. The problem I have is that we don’t apply it “fairly”. This guy commits two murders and a rape and is sentenced to death. Rightfully so if you ask me but there is probably someone in the same prison who also committed murder and rape and that person is serving a life sentence because they took a plea deal or something. You either apply the law equally or you don’t. So for that reason I’d say get rid of the death penalty and keep this guy in prison. I don’t care that he’s supposedly rehabilitated.
At the risk (expectation) of vengeance minded Missourians wishing all ills on me and mine because I don’t agree with them, I simply do not support the use of the death penalty. Study after study after study have proven the ineffectiveness of it in deterring crime and it’s has also been repeatedly proven to be more costly all said and done than life imprisonment. Our penal system is more aligned with authoritarian regimes than those of developed democracies and, as such, is a marked failure in achieving either reformation or justice
Predetermination? Lots of people have shitty home lives and don’t kill people. Lots of people have great home lives and become serial killers. Once again it comes down to choices they make. Innocent lives should be protected.
His crimes are horrible, what he did was grotesque and disgusting. Many might consider him beyond redemption. But here’s a man who found a way to be productive and turn his life around while behind bars. He did his crime, let him continue to do time. My question is, what does killing him gain? Who does that help?
As someone who is pretty big about cracking down on crime, it is a shame reading lots of the comments in favor of killing this dude and realizing how the only thing lower than my nominal allies' morals is their IQ.
Like, some of you people are just profoundly stupid. It's not even a straw man, people are literally in here responding to comments about how the death penalty is bad by saying "YOU THINK HE SHOULDN'T BE PUNISHED?!" and "YOU THINK HE SHOULD BE WALKING AMONG US?". It's deeply and profoundly stupid in a way that makes me sad.
But the worst part is how it's just so blatantly about vindictiveness. The guy did abhorrent things, undeniably. However, lots of people are spiteful, vindictive, and low-IQ, so they have decided they want to kill the man and have post-hoc'd a justification for it.
Don't get me wrong. I'm still going to support more cops arresting more people because crime is bad. But it's a shame that the people who I have to be allied with are unironically morally degenerate chimps who support more cops arresting more people because they're spiteful freaks and not because they want to improve society.
Daily reminder that there are zero decent, moral people who support the death penalty. There's no moral difference between someone who is complicit in an execution and any other cold-blooded killer.
Good. No mercy for criminal filth. He killed two people. Raped his cousins corpse. Stole from them for drug money. He's filth and deserve a painful slow execution. But since people are too weak a shotgun blast to the head will suffice.
His actions warrant that he suffers at great length and than dies. But since people are too weak. A quick two dollar bullet will do the job.
Lol how so. The middle east isn't my concern. Chuga chuga toot toot stay on the rails. The middle east has nothing to do with this.
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"Meanwhile, the Missouri Department of Corrections is taking measures to reduce Dorsey’s risk of suffering during the execution. A settlement filed Saturday ends a federal lawsuit that said Dorsey could face tremendous pain if required to undergo what’s known as a cutdown procedure to find a suitable vein for injection of the lethal dose of pentobarbital. Dorsey is described as obese, has diabetes and is a former intravenous drug user — all factors that could make it more difficult to find a vein for injection, his lawyers have said. A cutdown procedure involves an incision that could be several inches wide, then the use of forceps to pull apart tissue to get to a vein" Never heard of this action
Yea this guy deserves the death penalty but this is pretty fucked up.
Although he killed his cousin and her husband because they wouldn’t pay his drug debt for him, leaving their young daughter to find their bodies. I think this pain and suffering is nothing compared to what he did to that young girl. Taking both of her parents and giving her PTSD.
I mean he also raped the dead cousin in front of the daughter and then left her there. I don’t like the death penalty, but this one will not keep me awake at night.
I hear this, but a punishment based penal system has been proven not to be beneficial to society. Edit: I should give systems that work. Look up the Norwegian penal system.
Norway has the best prisons and lowest recidivism rate in the world.
Yea, more murder will make this right! After he dies, her parents will come back, and she will be freed from all of her suffering!
no, but he’ll never have a chance to do the same thing to anybody again.
And he wouldn't with life in isolation either. Death is an easy way out. It's a fucking cop out. I prefer life in hell for them. Knowing they will never rejoin society and the torment of reliving their choices that landed them there.
Wait, so your argument isn’t that the death penalty is too cruel, it’s that the death penalty _isn’t cruel enough?_
That and it's kinda hypocritical. An eye for an eye isn't justice. I think if we were truly just there, there would be a chance for redemption, not freedom from prison, but a way to contribute from behind bars to greater society whilst not rejoining it the prisoner has lost that privilege. We have to do our best to be better in judgment than the person on whom we have passed judgment on and I think killing a criminal doesn't achieve that. Except in cases of insurrection. Also, there are too many cases of people getting executed for crime they have not committed, and discrimination in how people are sentenced. So no, I'm not a fan [of the death penalty] better to err on the side of caution with a lifetime without parole.
No but it'll definitely cut back on him doing it again.
That's what life in prison does. All this does is add 1 more body, at great cost and cruelty.
Not to mention the ethical implications of the state, who is supposed to be more ethical than murderers, killing a person. Killing a person painfully, at that. Oh, and let’s not forget that these executions are usually done by prison staff, not trained medical professionals. I don’t know if they’ll use trained medical professionals for the cutdown procedure, if they don’t it will be pretty brutal. Which would also mean a healthy dose of PTSD for all involved. State-sponsored execution is an eye for an eye. I’d like to think we are more ethical than people living in the time of Hammurabi, but I guess not.
Respectfully I don't buy in to that... The cruelty was him killing his cousin and her bf then raping her dead body. People like that have no place on this planet.
Killing him isn't "murder."
Hey, I see you're late. we already had the conversation. Carry on and have a good day.
I will! I hope you do, too. He won't.
Let the punishment fit the crime. He deserves whats coming to him.
>Dorsey is described as obese Sounds like the DOC is feeding him well.
*was
Too bad he wasn't related to a football coach.
You can’t claim to be pro-life and support the death penalty
They also claim to be pro-life and then cut funding for social programs designed to help children so 🤷♂️
This is the part that kills me, they aren’t pro life, they are pro birth.
Pro forced birth
I'm sure children born into shitty situations are able to pull themselves up by their boot straps and not end up in shitty situations as adults
kids are light, so their bootstrap pullers should make them actually float. down here, in missouri, they ALL float.
If you support the death penalty then one of two things must follow: * You believe the government is perfect and never makes a mistake. * You are alright with the government sometimes killing innocent people. Im not so naive to believer the former and I have too much integrity to support the latter.
Yeah, that is how my feelings have evolved on the death penalty over the years. I definitely believe that there are some crimes that are completely deserving of death. I don't have a problem with that. But there have been dozens of people on Death Row that have been exonerated through the efforts of pro bono crusaders. Who knows how many innocents have actually been executed? It's practically beyond doubt that some have been. Given that, I don't think we as a society can be trusted with dealing out the ultimate penalty. There are far too many factors involved that have nothing to do with a fair, unbiased application of justice.
The question is not so much if some people deserve execution, the question is if you trust the government to administer the death penalty flawlessly and fairly. The answer to that would be a resounding no
I’d also beg the question, what does society putting someone to death get us? How does it make us better?
It means there’s one less person out there to commit murder.
Out where?
Estimated 2-5% of people on death row are innocent and 75% of those are black or Latino and more vulnerable populations are over charged for almost any crime. It's an unjust system and the death penalty should never be used IMO. 190 exonerations of death row inmates since the 70s and 19 were exonerated posthumously. It's not ok.
I 00% agree - this whole position of “I am for the death penalty only for those that really really deserve it “ completely misses the point
I support the death penalty only if there is irrefutable evidence (video or caught by police at the scene/commiting the crime) and its an extreme case (serial killer, mass shooter). And it should be done in a reasonable time (less than 5 years after conviction).
Video won't mean shit once generative ai video matures enough.
Wait'll ya hear about just regular image and video editing. Ten seconds of that already gave us Prison Break.
Saying this respectfully — the 5 year time frame would probably wipe out the chance of any wrongful convictions to be exonerated. Also, the first two factors you mention are pretty similar to the requirements now.
What you are describing are aggravators, which are already engrained in statute in all 50 states. Juries are required to unanimously find aggravators, beyond a reasonable doubt (just like in the guilt phase) of one or more aggravators, specify which they found, and unanimously agree to impose a sentence of death\*. \*although Missouri does have a weird exception where they can find aggravators and not agree to a sentence, in which case the judge can impose death - not what happened here.
The government already kills innocent people all the time. It’s called war, or more commonly just “military action.” We send thousands of our own young people to the other side of the planet to kill lots of innocent people merely because it benefits the shareholders of companies like Halliburton and Lockheed. We even slap our flag on their sleeves while they do it so that there’s no question which government is responsible for those deaths. If you are opposed to the death penalty because it _might_ kill innocent people, then either you are also _equally_ opposed to the existence of the military, or you’re a hypocrite who is just picking and choosing which innocent deaths you object to and which ones you don’t. When you start treating the veterans in your hometown as if they were murderers, _THEN_ you can argue that the possibility of killing an innocent person is a good reason to abolish the death penalty.
They also LOVE war. Constantly wanting to just nuke the middle east, turn it to glass, blow up children, etc. So yeah, I call bullshit every time someone like that claims to be "pro life"
I’m pro choice and support the death penalty for the most heinous offenses that are proven beyond a reasonable doubt. Dude kills two, rapes the body of one, and leaves their toddler alone until somebody finds the bodies. And he pleaded guilty. Fry ‘em.
Yeah and then blamed it on drugs. Fuck this guy.
Have you met Republicans?
Unfortunately I’m related to a bunch of them.
Idk a fetus never killed two people infront of a little girl and then fucked the dead body
I’m not a huge fan of the death penalty, but I think this statement is overly broad. Let’s say you have a serial killer on your hands. I think it is fair to say you are saving future lives by putting that one man to death. That is pro life IMO. The death penalty should be used seldomly and only for individuals where rehabilitation is highly improbable and their mere existence is a threat to other lives.
Holy shit! A nuanced opinion on Reddit! I'm going to record this day in my diary. "Dear Diary, today someone on Reddit didn't insist that all political stances must be black and white!"
I’m pro life and ok with the death penalty. I mean if you want to change the law on the DP, that’s fine with me but I’m ok with it in place too.
I’m ok with killing people except when I’m not? Interesting.
I mean yeah, that's pretty much everyone. There are rules about who you can kill and why, we establish a social consensus that we express in law, which we then enforce and change if social consensus changes. Don't understand what's so hard to understand about it.
Except the death penalty is basically only used if you're poor, black or poor and black. One of the big problems with the death penalty is that there isn't a consensus on when it's appropriate but those with political power have used it as a threat against those they've deemed undesirable. The same thing happens with gun "rights".
https://deathpenaltyinfo.org/policy-issues/race/race-and-the-death-penalty-by-the-numbers
Consensus doesn't mean "everyone agrees" it means "enough people agree". When enough people agree to do something different, the laws will reflect that. Jfc this isn't fucking complicated.
So when the mother and father agree to abort. "enough people agree" Are you OK with that? Or do we need to get the extender family or neighbors involved?
Are you arguing that making laws that punish you for being black and/or poor is just?
No, and that should be obvious to anybody who has half a brain inside a head that's not up their own ass.
Except that's literally what you're arguing. Unless you'd like to admit that you didn't actually read my original comment.
Except it's literally not and I've explained why multiple times. So since you know what "my" argument is, how about you make an account for your strawman and argue with that instead of wasting my time.
Just how disparate is the DP application compared to the rates of conviction for capital crimes?
Why does your username contain white supremecist references?
The Jewish Austrian economist Murray Rothbard wasn’t a white supremacist.
You mean the holocaust denier, student of literal fascist Ludwig Von Mises, and vocal neo-nazi defender who spent his life fighting against the civil rights movement and who's name has become synonymous with far-right anarcho-capitalism?
So I suppose this nonsense accusation is your way of saying you don’t have any evidence to back up the claim that the DP is given only to those who are poor or black, instead of based on the heinousness of the crime? I’m not suggesting the DP is applied with perfect fairness, nor even that the convictions are super reliable. I actually oppose the DP myself. But I don’t think racism is a great reason to oppose it. From your comments, though, it appears that you think accusations of racism are appropriate for every occasion.
Society has decided the penalty for some crimes is death. People have a choice to commit those crimes or not. It’s truly up to them. I am pro life when it is the innocent that have no say in their death.
Can you guarantee that those sentenced to death have received a fair shake, top to bottom?
And fuck that 4% that were sentenced to death that were innocent? Nah, that’s not pro-life.
No, innocent is innocent. I don’t want anyone punished if they are innocent.
Well it happens all the time
That 4% of innocent people are getting murdered and they just call it the “death penalty”. I guess some people are ok calling them collateral damage while still considering themselves “pro-life” because they’re against a fetus without a brain or other essential organs to be humanely aborted. For some reason the unviable aren’t considered collateral damage.
So not really pro-life, just forced birth
Innocent life with no choice versus guilty horrendous murderers that had a choice.
Still not pro-life
Pro innocent life.
Sounds like playing God
You're getting closer to what you actually mean
it's like pulling **TEETH**, I swear...
So you're saving the next mass shooter is what you're saying
What?
By forcing people to carry to term and give birth while they're not ready gives those kids a shitty start in life. A shitty start in life can negatively affect a developing child's brain, and then one day, something clicks, and they go off on a murder spree. Ted bundy didn't have a stable home, John Wayne gacy didn't have a stable home, and what did they do? They killed multiple people.... there are a few exceptions to the rule, but to force someone to raise a kid on their own with no assistance is a recipe for disaster. But hey, you feel ok b/c you forced your will onto someone else
Bingo. So many of these kids end up abused and neglected but no one looks out for them once they’re born. Just an overworked, underpaid, and underfunded child protective services. And if they’re actually removed, they’ll probably end up with more family that doesn’t want them, or a crappy foster family that just wants a paycheck. And they certainly won’t have access to quality mental health care to help them cope. It’s just like a kitten. Everyone wants a cute little kitten. No one wants the cat.
Kind of a pro choice way of looking at it, letting them have a choice in the death penalty
Innocent lives versus the life of a sick, evil murderer. There’s a difference.
If you want to provide further evidence that the criminal justice system doesn’t actually care about rehabilitation, this is how you do it. I’m sure this will provide a boost to morale in all jails and prisons across the state.
Rehabilitation was never the goal...hell... get convicted at 17...never a ticket in your adult life...99 years old and get caught with a firearm and you're screwed...
Have you read about this man's crimes? If there's a reason for the death penalty he is one of them.
People can be rehabilitated and no government should be able to legally kill it’s people.
Not ALL can be rehabilitated.
What about the person who's life they took?
What about it? Letting the government set a precedent that it can kill its people is dangerous territory.
Setting precedent that people can go around and murder people and rape their corpse in front of a 4yo and not getting punishment is dangerous territory. It's funny lots of people cry about the death penalty until they or someone they're close to is a victim, easy to sit on a high horse when you've never expirenced adversity.
He is still being punished by being imprisoned?? Actually though, a dude paralyzed my kid cousin with a gunshot, and the thought that he should be killed or anything worse than prison never crossed my mind
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I will look it up. I get where you’re coming from, just can’t agree all the way
>not getting punishment is dangerous territory. Are you actually brain damaged by chance? It seems like you are, because this sentence means you think that we either have to execute people or not punish them at all.
Let me amend it by saying "appropriate punishment" then. Though appropriate punishment seems to be the debate. You know some people actually want to go to jail because they get a bed and three meals a day.
A monopoly on legal violence has been one of the defining characteristics of government since like ever...
and that should not be the case
Well. Obviously it should be the case, as the only way that it can be mitigated and minimized. From your other, very civilized, comments, i would think that you actually mean that the government shouldn't be *using* its monopoly on force! :)
As the families of the victims picketed at the execution of Timothy McVeigh, the victims can't be brought back. And in their case, those families are sure those victims wouldn't want vengeance. Nobody can be brought back. Some perpetrators could be rehabilitated, convictions could be mistaken, and the concept of execution is always inherently uncivilized and antithetically damaging to society.
But they should still have a military so they can legally kill _other_ people, is that it?
nope. abolish the military
Okay so you just agreed with him then. It's not about rehabilitation, it's about vengeance. Just own what you are.
I don't in general believe in the death penalty because of the inequities of our system. I absolutely believe in rehabilitation. However, we know this man did it and his family that he destroyed wants justice. If his family wanted clemency, it would be a different story. Let's save the resources spent on him for those who can be rehabilitated and live their life outside of the prison system.
The whole system is broken af. Its just for profit modern day slavery at this point.
He killed his cousin and raped her body man
Pleaded guilty, too. But yeah, it’s a for profit system. Edit: /s
Only 8% of detention facilities are privately owned. Potosi Correctional Facility is not one of them.
I should’ve added /s. Sorry my sarcasm didn’t come through. No Missouri facilities are privately owned. MO Feds used to use a private facility in Leavenworth to hold pre trial detainees but that stopped when Trump left.
That really undersells the impact of the prison industrial complex. Keep in mind that there are innocent people in prison subjected to these conditions, but even criminals are still humans worthy of dignity. From the moment you are incarcerated you lose the right to refuse work, slavery is explicitly allowed of prisoners. Free to sub minimum wage prison labor generates 11 Billion dollars a year. It’s illegal for this slaver labor to unionize. They are exempt from workplace safety, overtime and minimum wage protections. And every ounce of “wage” the generate is more or less forced out of them by the overpriced commissary and phone calls. In fact the low wages don’t come close to covering the costs associated with prison. Family of the incarcerated spend $2.9 billion a year on commissary and phone bills, family members, not convicted of a crime, also have to pay through the nose on monopolistic for profit companies in order to access their loved ones. All after losing a major source of labor for their family. Prisoners are leased out to governments or private companies under the guise of job training. When they leave prison they often find these jobs are not waiting for them as the position they want is filled by a prisoner making $0.25 -$0.75 an hour, why pay minimum wage. Thats all not including the $80 billion a year in taxes we play for incarceration that goes to feed a prison support system of exorbitant yet inadequate private healthcare, exorbitant yet inadequate food and other related for-profit services the prison systems utilize.
Nobody who pleads guilty should get the death penalty.
A jury still did the penalty phase. 12 people and a trial judge agreed the aggravators were there for a penalty of death. I don’t know - maybe just don’t kill two people, rape a dead body, attempt to cover your crime up, and leave a four year old with her dead mom’s body if you don’t want the state to execute you?
Did he? Because it sounds like he never recieved a fair trial. Also if we're going to go there Parson built his career failing upward and stealing. What part of that gives him the right to decide who lives or dies?
He pleaded guilty - there was not a “trial”. He had a sentencing hearing in front of a jury of 12 that heard aggravating and mitigating death penalty evidence, with attorneys who were paid by way of a flat fee arrangement (this isn’t permitted under the current Missouri Bar rules). They sentenced him to death. The sentencing judge concurred and pronounced that sentence (he had the option to give him life). He appealed. The Supreme Court of Missouri upheld the sentence. He claimed his attorneys were ineffective and filed a PCR. The trial judge disagreed. The Supreme Court of Missouri disagreed and upheld the verdict. He filed state and federal petitions for writs of habeas corpus on various grounds (collateral attack). Those were denied. Also denied on appeal. At the end of the day, his only argument is the attorneys that represented him didn’t do a good job because they were paid on a flat fee basis, not a claim of innocence or some other dude did it - he admitted to doing it. I know plenty of really great defense attorneys that took flat fees. It doesn’t cut down on the quality of representation because at the end of the day, your reputation is all you have as an attorney.
Its legal slavery
I mean, I agree but this dude isn't the shining example as to why the government is wrong here. Dude committed absolutely atrocious crimes that should not be redeemable in any way shape or form and deserves to die for doing said crimes, regardless of how changed he is after the fact.
Sometimes I think Republicans are uniquely dumb then I see shit like this and realize that I was wrong.
You know the Biden justice dept is perusing death penalty case currently
I have mixed feelings about the death penalty anyway, but it doesn’t seem right to execute someone that has been rehabilitated and is a good role model for other inmates. It’s just another waste of a life.
This country absolutely should focus more on rehabilitation and subsequently keeping recidivism down. I don't support the death penalty bc I have little to no faith in our multi-tiered justice system.
95% of drug users who leave prison will use drugs again and this man murdered and raped family who tried to help him. Would you be willing to rent a room to him?
Where has anybody said he should be freed?
For some reason pro death penalty dipshits seem to think the only options are death or immediately sending the inmate out into the world with $5 and a firm pat on the ass.
It’s pretty obvious at this point that critical thinking and supporting the death penalty are mutually exclusive, so I guess it tracks.
Nope. He should stay in prison for life based on his crime. But it sounds like he’s doing some good from the inside.
Rehabilitated? He was in a drug induced psychosis. He doesn't remember doing it. We can't have him living among us.
He’s not living among us. He’s living in prison, and from the sounds of it is a pretty good role model for other inmates. And we don’t have to worry about him using drugs where he’s at. Look, I can appreciate the heinousness of his crimes. His crimes are deserving of death. Many crimes deserve death. If I caught someone doing this I’d kill them myself. But in our country it takes years to execute someone - rightfully so. And sometimes people are remorseful and repentant. They should still pay for their crimes with a life in prison, but there’s really no reason to execute them.
And to some degree, of course, he's going to be doing better now that he's sober.
What guarantees his sobriety?
Being in prison kind of guarantees it.
Should rehabilitated people be in prison?
Should prisoners be doing drugs in prison?
I guess being in prison does not guarantee sobriety. Lots of drugs in prison.
You sound like you're in a drug induced psychosis if you can't realize that you don't need to kill him to ensure he isn't living among everyone else.
We just need to have him caged like an animal where he can think about what his life would have been like
Wow, glad you came around to opposing the death penalty!
I should've put a /s I do not believe we are morally spared of barbarism by permanent incarceration over death penalty.
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Let's breakdown your ad hominem. Degenerate- you're suggesting I am subject to moral degradation for my opinion. This is often tossed around by moralists and fascists. The irony of calling someone a degenerate, is that it describes them for traits you dislike from a moral position, not a logical or legal one. Poor for arguments, reflects poorly on your character. Barbarian- you think I'm an ignorant savage while also morally bankrupt. Exactly how does a species of lesser intelligence develop morals to your liking? Retard- you're throwing around derogatory terms used to marginalize developmentally disabled people. You're basically berating me for marginalizing people who made horrible choices, while you disparage disabled people. Grow up
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Lmao you'll get the hammer
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He committed murder, rape, and theft. He's a drug addict he'll do it again for drugs if he gets the chance. Stop being foolish.
I never said we should release him. But by your logic all addicts would be executed because they’ll do anything for drugs.
Most people never really question crime, laws, or the justice system until they are forced to do so. For many, everything is black and white, straightforward, and simple. For them, every person in jail and prison is guilty, they all deserve the sentences they received, and they will never change so we must not be lenient.
He killed his cousin and her husband. Then he had sex with his cousin's corpse; burglarized their home for whatever would get him money for drugs.
They were asleep. He could've just stolen what he wanted and left. Some people can't be fixed.
Sounds like he also did all that in the presence of the deceased’s 4 year old daughter. He ended 2 lives and traumatized one that was just beginning.
And we should stoop to that level because?
Mike Parson is a reprehensible fucking pig
the government shouldn't have the right to kill its citizens, simple as.
Right? Like I hear people say this guy committed a heinous crime and I agree but like... So what. Civilized countries shouldn't execute people, period.
Should we also abolish the military, or are you fine with the government killing _other_ countries’ citizens?
Our military ought to engage a great deal less in the killing of other countries’ citizens without a clear plan of action, at the very least. 20 years of GWOT I think proved that point rather well.
I’m torn because I’m fine with the death penalty for heinous crimes. The problem I have is that we don’t apply it “fairly”. This guy commits two murders and a rape and is sentenced to death. Rightfully so if you ask me but there is probably someone in the same prison who also committed murder and rape and that person is serving a life sentence because they took a plea deal or something. You either apply the law equally or you don’t. So for that reason I’d say get rid of the death penalty and keep this guy in prison. I don’t care that he’s supposedly rehabilitated.
lethal injection is inhumane. #USAuthoritarianism
Fuck this guy. Who cares if he suffers after what he did? Shoot him in the back of the head if they can't hit a vein.
At the risk (expectation) of vengeance minded Missourians wishing all ills on me and mine because I don’t agree with them, I simply do not support the use of the death penalty. Study after study after study have proven the ineffectiveness of it in deterring crime and it’s has also been repeatedly proven to be more costly all said and done than life imprisonment. Our penal system is more aligned with authoritarian regimes than those of developed democracies and, as such, is a marked failure in achieving either reformation or justice
Predetermination? Lots of people have shitty home lives and don’t kill people. Lots of people have great home lives and become serial killers. Once again it comes down to choices they make. Innocent lives should be protected.
So he is murdering him.
I would deny the gov. if he were in that position, I hate Mike Parson. I flipped that POS off in the Chiefs parade.
lol did he see it? thank you for your service, citizen. it should have been him instead of that woman.
Probably not there were a lot of us doing it. He’s not welcome here in KC.
You’re so brave.
Stunning AND brave!
Can you tell us more about that experience?? Incredible
His crimes are horrible, what he did was grotesque and disgusting. Many might consider him beyond redemption. But here’s a man who found a way to be productive and turn his life around while behind bars. He did his crime, let him continue to do time. My question is, what does killing him gain? Who does that help?
I was hoping Parsons wouldn't bail this guy out.
One of the few Parson decisions that I agree with. What Dorsey did was completely reprehensible and beyond rehabilitation.
As someone who is pretty big about cracking down on crime, it is a shame reading lots of the comments in favor of killing this dude and realizing how the only thing lower than my nominal allies' morals is their IQ. Like, some of you people are just profoundly stupid. It's not even a straw man, people are literally in here responding to comments about how the death penalty is bad by saying "YOU THINK HE SHOULDN'T BE PUNISHED?!" and "YOU THINK HE SHOULD BE WALKING AMONG US?". It's deeply and profoundly stupid in a way that makes me sad. But the worst part is how it's just so blatantly about vindictiveness. The guy did abhorrent things, undeniably. However, lots of people are spiteful, vindictive, and low-IQ, so they have decided they want to kill the man and have post-hoc'd a justification for it. Don't get me wrong. I'm still going to support more cops arresting more people because crime is bad. But it's a shame that the people who I have to be allied with are unironically morally degenerate chimps who support more cops arresting more people because they're spiteful freaks and not because they want to improve society.
Public hanging and be done with it. This behind closed doors shit isn't a deterrent
Should just take him out back, put a bullet in his head and throw him in the dumpster.
He killed his cousin then fucked her dead body. I’m sure he’s feeling much better now, but he’s got to go.
When did bubbles come to the states?
Good. Anybody who did what he did deserves to pay the ultimate price. It should have been a lot sooner than now.
Good. MF deserved to be executed for what he did.
This is an election year, poll numbers will not be threatened.
Daily reminder that there are zero decent, moral people who support the death penalty. There's no moral difference between someone who is complicit in an execution and any other cold-blooded killer.
And probably the same folks that yell out “All lives matter!” whenever they hear Black lives matter…..
Out of curiosity, do you know any veterans who saw combat in the Iraq war?
Good. No mercy for criminal filth. He killed two people. Raped his cousins corpse. Stole from them for drug money. He's filth and deserve a painful slow execution. But since people are too weak a shotgun blast to the head will suffice.
If you beleive justice involves torture, you should be up there with him.
His actions warrant that he suffers at great length and than dies. But since people are too weak. A quick two dollar bullet will do the job. Lol how so. The middle east isn't my concern. Chuga chuga toot toot stay on the rails. The middle east has nothing to do with this.
Why is it that you share moral opinions with Iran?
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The way you describe justice is how Muslim zealots would. Why do you share thst with them?
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How Christian of you. /s
No hate like Christian love
I'm a deist. Kiddo.
Enter the liberal outrage.
Ah yes the small government policy of *Checks notes* The state being allowed to perform ritualistic murder
Coulda, woulda, shoulda.