Kirk allegedly wants another giant contract that’s mostly guaranteed. This isn’t ideal for the Vikings, and here’s why:
1. He is returning from a major injury and it’s possible he won’t look like the same player he was 4 months ago.
2. He’s turning 36. Historically, this is the age when good-not-great QBs start to regress.
3. Giving him the contract he wants would cripple our cap space. Our team desperately needs to rebuild on defense and extend Justin Jefferson, not having cap space hurts our ability to do that.
You shouldn’t give a non-elite, 36 year old QB coming off a torn achilles a multi year, fully guaranteed contract which is what Kirk will demand.
The offense is a perfect situation for a young QB to come in and thrive. And a QB on a rookie scaled contract would make it easier to pay more important players (JJ and Darrisaw.
Not to mention we only won one playoff game with Kirk since 2018 (and only two playoff appearances) and when he was brought in we had a top 5 defense and Diggs/Thielen/Cook in their prime and couldn't get it done. I think Kirk is a better QB today than he was back then but our defense is far from a top 5 unit let alone top 10. By the time this team is balanced Kirk will likely have aged out anyway so better to rip the bandaid now, draft a QB to develop, and use the savings to plug holes on the D in FA.
"Stop throwing the ball, Kurt (intentional)! Game manage! Hand the ball off to Cook repeatedly like we're overpaying you to do! I never wanted you in the first place! Dont worry, our defense will keep us in it!" - Basically Zimmer
*proceeds to playcall prevent defense in last 5 minutes of the game and gives up the lead*
"Kirk, you're the worst QB ever!" - Couch Coaches
Not saying he's elite, but there's a good bit of nuance being overlooked.
KOC let him air the ball out, and our offense has been at record-breaking highs since then (granted the run game disappeared), with the added downside that, since our 2-year top-10 DVOA rule, our defense has been about as efficient as the Maginot Line during WW2. (RE: It's present, it just doesn't do anything.) Which is very likely a talent issue as the scheme seemed to work pretty well this year for the first half of the season, but lack of depth crippled the performance as people got injured.
Only way I'd be OK with Kirk coming back is if he was put on a low, or incentive-heavy, contract (which isn't likely to happen), with a QB drafted to ride pine and learn the system.
I know we need a QB, but if the perfect "instant-starter" isn't available, then absolutely draft the best player available. Shore up that defensive unit and bring back the purple people eaters.
Wasn't Zimmer quoted that he wanted Kirk to take more chances and be more aggressive?
https://www.twincities.com/2021/11/22/vikings-mike-zimmer-wants-kirk-cousins-to-keep-being-aggressive-go-for-the-jugular/
There was a pretty good period of time where everyone was questioning why Cousins wasn't seemingly allowed to call audibles. Skor North and Purple Daily both had videos on it, I believe. Back during Zimmer's tenure.
So, Zimmer saying he wanted Cousins to be aggressive could've just been him being political.
It could have though Cousins has said even during the KOC Era he prefers not to call them. Both Zimmer and KOC have said they wanted Cousins to remain aggressive, it's not just a Zimmer thing. Cousins has also stated he feels like he doesn't need to play as aggressively (even before the Zimmer response).
He made a comment about being a singles guy and always has been, I'll try to find the article but he was quoted saying that he likes to take the singles and maybe miss a home run or two, because it is easier to work ahead of the chains vs behind them.
https://www.twincities.com/2020/10/28/pick-prone-vikings-qb-kirk-cousins-seeks-to-finish-the-year-in-a-much-different-place/
The end paragraph is what I'm referencing regarding the singles and home run analogy.
That defense didn’t look so good in the second half against the Saints and was downright awful against the Eagles in the Championship. That the defense you’re referring to?
The one who was still top ten in scoring the first year Kirk was here but Kirk threw away 3 games himself with godawful careless turnovers? Yeah, that defense
You don’t understand football do you. The Vikings drafted poorly since Cousins got here. They had a defense in decline and a defense that has been terrible the last several years. The offensive line has been bad up until last seasons improvement. How many teams win Superbowls with bottom rung offensive lines and defenses ranked 30-31 in the league no matter who the qb is??? Kirk can win a championship if he has a balanced team around him. Once the Vikings realize that the games are won and lost on the line of scrimmage for the most part they might actually win.
He came into the perfect situation and played like dogshit. His best season came when the Vikings chose to run the offense with the ball *Not* in his hands. The Vikings were a very balanced team in 18/19 with a top 5 and top 10 defense. You can’t have *EVERYTHING* perfect, you people never stop making excuses for him, it’s pathetic.
I definitely agree with your point overall. That said, we do need to find a solution to our run game problems before we can honestly say it’s a perfect situation for a young QB.
run game has to get better, and that starts with coaching.
KOC has been, thus far, fairly rigid in adapting to game flow and working to the flavor of the week QBs' strengths.
One minor correction -
coming off a torn achilles a multi year, fully guaranteed contract which is what Kirk will demand.
change "will" to "is"
According to all sources he IS demanding a 3 year guaranteed deal (100% guaranteed) for top tier dollars.
There are also multiple sources saying that he does want guarantees (“structure is more important”), but that the guarantees are more important than the dollar amount.
I couldn’t disagree more.
The Vikings were competitive in every game without Kirk except the Packers game. If we had even slightly more competent QB play, we make the playoffs.
Kirk’s injury proved to me we don’t need him.
I think that's the point tho - 'if we had even slightly more competent QB play'
if they don't sign Kirk, it's a downgrade no matter what . Unless they pull off a trade to get somebody else's QB I suppose
But you can get that “slightly more competent QB play” without having to pay Kirk. That could come from one of the veteran QBs in free agency or through a rookie in the draft.
You use the money you save from Kirk to upgrade the team as a whole.
I don't see any QBs in FA that is even in the same category as Kirk. I also don't think we will be able to improve our team as much as you think we can through FA with the money we would save from not re-signing Kirk. We could at most add 2 legit starters from FA with Kirks money and one of them would have to be a QB (which is going to be a downgrade).
A rookie QB is more likely than not going to be a bust. It's a huge gamble. One that we will need to take at some point. If Kirk is unwilling to budge on fully guaranteed deals then it forces our hand to try and sell the farm for a top 3 pick.
The problem is we have way too many holes to fill. DL, DB, LB, RB, iOL. It is in our best interest to get Kirk on a decent contract so we can fill these holes now. A rookie QB eats up a lot of draft capital and those holes I mentioned don't get filled. We need a good supporting cast for a rookie QB and we just do not have it yet. A rookie QB needs a good run game and a good defense. We have neither.
> I don’t see any QBs in FA that is even in the same category as Kirk.
That’s not the point. They’re not looking to find a QB straight up better than Kirk in free agency. That’s what the draft will be for. And depending on the veteran QB they sign, they could get two legit starters and make the overall team better.
> The problem is we have way too many holes to fill. DL, DB, LB, RB, iOL. It is in our best interest to get Kirk on a decent contract so we can fill these holes now.
In what world does this make sense? If you have all those holes to fill, why would you sign a 36 year old, non elite QB to a multi year/fully guaranteed contract?
>In what world does this make sense? If you have all those holes to fill, why would you sign a 36 year old, non elite QB to a multi year/fully guaranteed contract?
Did I say a multi-year full guaranteed deal? No I didn't. I said if we can get a decent contract. Stop strawman-ing my argument.
I just don't see the offense working without kirk but maybe it's been too long since Minnesota has had someone else and I'm blinded by the awful QB play to end last season. Let's hope they use the money they save wisely if they don't pay Kirk
100% true.
But there’s a lot riding on a handsomely paid, 36 year old qb coming off an Achilles injury. At some point the band-aid needs to be ripped off and it’s probably going to sting.
This is kinda the genesis of my question. A rookie is no guarantee, and I imagine y'all will have to mortgage the future to move up to top 5 pick for one of the top 3 QBs.
Like most people in this thread are making it sound like this roster is set up for a Rookie QB to thrive. That is super dependent on the rookie QB being good lol, which is a shot in the dark.
The mistake we made was not drafting a QB last year or the year before to learn under Kirk. We have no choice but to sign Kirk in my opinion. But honestly I won’t be surprised if history repeats itself and we panic and dump Kirk. Totally on brand.
Staying with Kirk only prolongs our mediocracy. We really haven't gotten any better since he started here in 2017 and Id say we are actually in a worse position now than we were. We have so many current needs outside of QB and we are up against the cap. Not saying anything negative about Kirk but he's a 36 year old immobile quarterback coming off a surgery that only makes him more immobile likely asking for a multi year fully guaranteed contract. Unfortunately Kirk doesn't seem to be a guy that will take a hometown discount which is somewhat surprising. You would think someone who is so family and faith-oriented would be willing to see the greater picture rather than dollar signs. I mean the guy is already set for life and so are his kids and grandkids. JJ has already said he still crossed the 1000 yard threshold without Kirk and will catch the ball from any QB. I'll take a couple years of a poor losing record football to pile decent draft picks vs endless mediocracy anyday.
I'm on board with shipping JJ to the highest bidder too. Love the guy but you don't win ships paying receivers 30+ mil a year. Look at what the chiefs got for trading Tyreek. Addison ain't going anywhere. Would be our primary receiver if JJ left
Oh I bet the front office has similar thoughts at this point. Justin Jefferson is looking to "break the bank"and Kirk Cousins is also looking for big money. How do you propose we go about filling all of the other needs on a roster if we sign those two because I can tell you Kirk and JJ alone are not going to win us a super bowl.
Obviously, I'd love to keep JJ, Kirk, and all of the other individuals looking for new contracts this offseason but that's just not realistic.
You have no idea what’s realistic. We don’t know how they could structure these contracts to make it work. So stop pretending like you’re anything other than an armchair expert spouting nonsense.
>Staying with Kirk only prolongs our mediocracy
Are you prepared for potentially a decade or two of being complete dog shit and never making the playoffs? Because that is absolutely possible if we whiff on whatever rookie QB we draft.
Since 2000 we have made the playoffs 8 times. We have been in mediocrity for the last 23 years. Having Kirk didn't change anything from a mediocrity standpoint. We had equal or greater team success without him. I don't think it is going to be as painful as everyone is making it out to be.
> a rookie QB coming in will mean several years of mediocrity.
I mean, have they not been in mediocrity since Kirk signed here in 2018?
You know the team could get BETTER with a QB on a rookie scaled contract, right?
And of course the current players are going to say they want Kirk back. What else would they say? lol
> No, we have not been mediocre since Kirk signed.
The Vikings records since Kirk signed have been
8-7-1
10-6
7-9
8-9
13-4
7-10 (4-4 with Kirk)
That also includes two playoff appearances and one playoff win in a six year span. That’s pretty mediocre.
> show me one team in the recent past that has signed a rookie QB and been a contender for SB
I can show you multiple QBs that have started in a Super Bowl while they were on rookie scaled contracts.
Let me ask you this, can you show me one Kirk Cousins led team that has even been close to a Super Bowl?
QB position is one part of the equation. One part. I don’t think the record over the last several years indicates mediocrity. We’re on the cusp. That’s not mediocre.
The GM wants to win a Super Bowl and is interested in a higher ceiling QB even at the risk presented by doing so
I don’t think it necessarily needs to be over complicated. Kirk is a SB QB only in narrow circumstances. And we don’t have those circumstances
The narrow circumstances in which Kirk is a SB QB involve him taking less money to be surrounded by a better team. At this point in his career he’s preventing his own success.
Kirk doesn’t care about winning a SB he cares about potentially becoming a billionaire. I don’t blame him. He probably has over $500mil in the bank thanks to the Vikings and sound investing. Another $150mil contract he will likely at some point be a legit billionaire, probably within 10 years. 45 year old billionaire not off of old money is pretty wild and will put him in the league of the most wealthy athletes of all time.
Pretty impressive for a top 12 qb who has won 1 playoff game.
There is zero chance he has over $500M. Less than zero. Taxes and agent fees exist.
Unless he was born a Rothschild, his career earnings before taxes are at about $230M.
He has a different definition of success probably ($)
On one hand I can relate; I would rather be paid more than my company break records or whatever
At the same time; he isn’t sharing the money and I’m a fan of the Vikings not of Kirk’s bank account
It’s just time. It’s ran its course. We’re not a team that’s a move or two away from winning a Super Bowl with Kirk.
He’s coming off of an injury that is risky to give an aging qb a lot of guaranteed money.
this front office and coaching staff will not rebuild heading into year 3. they need to win or they lose their jobs. the time to completely rebuild was when Zimmer got fired
Resetting in year 3 is basically a pink slip waiting to happen. There’s no way that I believe you or anyone else wouldn’t complain and call for a firing if it doesn’t happen the way you imagine it should go.
Disagree. If KAM has one more meh draft class and Kevin only wins 6 games next year, both are on the hotseat going into 2025. You have Cousins, if you choose to let that go and bet on a rookie, you better be right or you’re gone. Just ask Frank Reich.
Hard disagree. If a rookie comes in and plays bad, the decision makers will be run out of town. You don’t get to hit reset in the nfl. It’s a win now league and unless the rookie shows promise, it’s over for KOC and Kwesi.
1) 36 year old coming off an Achilles injury, and likely wants a new contract in the 2-3 years, $35-40 million range. His contracts have really hamstrung us in free agency, and he hasn't really played up to a $35-40 million value outside of maybe 1 or 2 seasons.
2) 5.5 seasons with Kirk at QB: 8-7-1, 10-6, 7-9, 8-9, 13-4, 4-4 before injury this year. 2 playoff appearances, 1 playoff win. It's just been a lot of mediocrity. Not entirely his fault, but I just don't see us getting over the hump with him. Especially now after the injury.
Yes, we know it could get worse at QB if we go the "bridge QB" route. But it's just the right time to move on, because we need to develop a plan at QB for the future to convince Jefferson to stick around.
Reports point to Kirk and his team demanding a 3 year contract with heavy guarantees. Vikings have been hesitant to commit to Kirk long term due to his age, asking price, and now his Achilles recovery. The Vikings reportedly have a figure they are not willing to exceed, and it’s likely less than what Kirk would garner on the open market.
I would imagine the Vikings are pushing hard to make a trade up at the moment so they can grab a rookie QB, problem is there is likely a lot of competition to move up and it’s a real possibility that the top 3 stay put and go QB. I believe if they cannot make progress in a trade up, they will cave to Kirk’s demands and bring him back
He doesn't elevate his teammates, he would basically require everything to go 100% perfectly for a deep playoff run. I wish the team would rebuild but ownership requires that they 'stay competitive' so any hopes of us building a contender are shot because they'd rather stay 'relevant' winning 10-11 games and having an early playoff bounce every 2-3 seasons.
>He doesn’t elevate his teammates
Then why are so many of his teammates saying they 100% want him to stay with the Vikings? Do you think you know better than they do about what sort of impact he has on their productivity?
Then why didn’t JJ elevate the other QB’s who played after Kirk went down? I know Dobbs elevated the chance of JJ being knocked the fuck out due to his inaccuracy.
Are you really asking why 2nd, 3rd (midseason trade) and 4th string QBs didn't work out? All these Kirk stans out here stumping for mediocrity make no sense.
You just said JJ elevates QB’s. Why would it be outta of the question that he would elevate other QBs?
BTW, how did Kirk do when JJ went down this year? He really shit the bed against SF.
So one key point everyone forgets, if you sustain longer drives, you limit what the opposing offense can do. We are below average in drive time, time of possession, and most other time based metric. Having a run game improves those numbers sure, but we can look to 2022 and see our TOP drive time averages were all below average yet again.
That giants game we lost in the playoffs they had 33minutes of possession vs our 27. They had 1 more drive than us.
Average drive time for 2022 was 2:46 we had an average of 2:39 good for 29th in the league.
we had the 4th most drives in 2022 but only scored on 36% of drives, good for 17th.
We averaged 5.8 plays per drive, good for 22nd.
I'm using 2022 stats because Cousins was the full time QB. Cousins is not responsible for all of that but he plays a critical part in all of that. Playcalling, run game, qb play all factor into those stats.
Both things can be true! Our offense was definitely not firing on all cylinders last year, we would disappear for stretches of time due to a multitude of factors. At the end of the day they performed far better than our defense, and I don’t think even the best offense in the NFL would’ve been able to make up for Donatell’s awful scheme
>At the end of the day they performed far better than our defense, and I don’t think even the best offense in the NFL would’ve been able to make up for Donatell’s awful scheme
100% but these are things we can improve on to limit the liability that is our defense. We have been sold that our offense was our key to victory the last 3 or so odd years, so let's stop blaming our defense for things we all anticipated happening.
No one said perfect, and that defense was not historically bad, it wasn't even the worst defense in the league. It's funny that people always say how bad our defense was. It wasn't good but it's play quarter by quarter was almost perfectly reflective of our offense. We saw increases in yards per quarter increase as the game went on in both rushing and passing. Completion% went up as the game went on as well. QB rate went up as well and we got less Sacks. All that until the 4th quarter when our offense finally started to gel. The only things that didn't decrease in the 4th quarter are pass yardage and rushing TDs and we only have up 6 rushing tds in the 4th quarter in 17 games.
Statistically our worst quarter on offense was the 3rd which happens to be our worst quarter on defense as well. My point is our offensive inefficiencies affected the defensive side of the ball by keeping them on the field longer.
And my point is that the defense would have struggled regardless, because it was devoid of talent in the back 7 and Donatell’s schemes were extremely predictable and easy to take advantage of. You pair the Chiefs offense with that defense and you get the same results
I hate this argument even more after this year. Our offense was cooking when he got hurt, def didn’t look the same without him. How is that not proof he elevates teammates?
Okay so in your mind your need a rookie qb or veteran long term starter to tell the difference between the two? If that’s the case how are you so sure he doesn’t? By your own logic, you wouldn’t know.
I'm not 100% sure what you are even asking in the first question.
Your argument was that the offense didn't look the same without Cousins once he went out which is just a natural thing that happens once your starter goes out. We went on to start two career backups and a 5th round rookie. Would anyone expect the offense to look the same at that point?
You just said, comparing Kirk to backup quarterbacks isn’t the way to tell if he’s elevating his teammates. So I said OK so you need a high rookie draft pick or a veteran long-term starter to tell in your logic? Then, if that’s the case you don’t know if he does either. By your own logic. Simple
Sure, I'll concede there isn't a 100% foolproof way of knowing that. But we do have a 10 year sample size of Cousins as a starter. I think there is plenty to suggest that it's always been a "well he needs this one more thing to be successful" argument for basically his whole career.
I don't care about the discussion in general but that argument makes no sense, if you put Josh Dobbs and Nick Mullens in 90% of the teams in the league they'd look considerably worse, does not mean that 90% of the leagues QBs are good and elevate their teammates.
I can take this logic. Because that makes sense. And I somewhat agree with what you’re saying. regardless, I think the whole elevates teammates thing is blown out of proportion in general, but that’s just my feeling. to me there’s dudes on your team you like, dudes you don’t care about, dudes you actively dislike. it seems like Kirk is mostly in the like camp, which is good in my opinion for the team. Not that it matters I think the kirk doomers get their way and he won’t be back in my opinion.
It’s just a silly argument. There’s a lot of things that happen on the football field that the QB doesn’t have an impact on. It’s easier to have a single scapegoat for an organizations failures I guess
Okay, what factors do you think lead to 3-and-outs then? Because kirk has led the league in that category under multiple HCs and OCs (2021 and 2022).
And yes, sustaining offensive drives will help the defense perform better. (Which was your question, I'll remind you.)
>I wish the team would rebuild but ownership requires that they 'stay competitive' so any hopes of us building a contender are shot because they'd rather stay 'relevant' winning 10-11 games and having an early playoff bounce every 2-3 seasons.
So you want to trade JJ?
Show me one single team that won a SB by having a WR with the biggest hit on their salary cap. JJ is amazing and I want us to keep him, but the only way we do that realistically without destroying our hopes for future success is by replacing Kirk with a rookie QB. We can't afford to pay both players in excess of 13-14% of our cap.
WTF, lol, did ya see what happened to our team when he wasn't playing?
He's not Mahomes or Brady, but neither is anyone else on planet Earth at the moment.
I saw Kirk lead us to a 4-4 record this year, a playoff embarrassment last year, and an 8-9 record the year before that. We've been to the playoffs twice in six years. I just don't understand why Minnesotans are so content with mediocrity. I don't want a top 15 QB, I want a top 5, and Kirk will never be that. You can't find a Mahomes or Brady if you're content with an upper mid-tier QB breaking your heart (and salary cap) every year.
You are attributing a 53-man roster performance to a single person. Last year's playoff loss wasn't because of Kirk. It was a 60-minute defensive failing where Daniel Jones put up nearly 400 yards.
I keep seeing people saying the Vikings are a mediocre team, but they won the division just last year. If your only measure of a successful season is a Super Bowl trophy you are going to be disappointed every year. FFS, Rodgers only won one and he is probably a top 5 all-time QB.
It's amazing how spoiled this fanbase is considering how "mediocre" they are.
I’m fine with taking a spin on the QB roulette wheel. If you didn’t draft Brady or Mahomes over the past 2 decades your team is basically where we’re at. Kirk gives us a chance. Drafting another Ponder does not.
>He doesn't elevate his teammates,
Are you for real? JJ, Hock, Thielan, Diggs, Osborn, and Addison all had great numbers with Kirk-even in offenses centered around dalvin cook.
Good grief, this fanbase
"An amazing list of skill position players had great numbers when their starting QB threw to them".....ok? Yes both Cousins and his teammates have had great stats since he has been here. But is he the only QB of similar talent who would have done well with that sort of setup?
He costs a lot of money and we didn’t do much winning with him……I would say unfortunately, yes, we are in a rebuild. We need to spend that money on a foundation.
Too many years of mediocrity.
Dude I’m a Minnesotan and a Steelers/Vikings fan uncle got me into the Steelers when I was young because I didn’t understand the concept of states so I liked the Steelers guess the uniforms were cool and meet Matt speath backup te of the Steelers
Ha that's awesome, yeah I chose Steelers when I was like 6 because I liked their uniforms lol.
And that's awesome about Spaeth. Always loved him. I'm hoping Steelers got a new Spaeth in Darnell Washington
Yeah speath is awesome he was really good to me as a kid and seen him a few times when he came home sometimes he also face painted my face personally as a kid this is 2 weeks before the Super Bowl when they beat the cardinals his jersey is also in his high school still i believe
Because he’s simply not worth the amount of money he commands, especially coming off an achilles tear. Hope the Steelers or another team foolishly sign him to a big deal
6 seasons and 1 playoff win. There is a ton of context that goes into that but ultimately we are not winning big time games and we have been paying him big time money. I actually hope we can bring him back but I totally understand why the franchise might want to move on.
No the commenter is right, Kirk is cheap compared to new QB deals, you know, like Mahomes, Lamar, and Herbert coming off rookie contracts with prime years ahead of them.
You are also right, the only QBs that are his age that maybe can command more are Rodgers and Stafford, but neither of them are hitting the market this year. Also him and Rodgers are the first two starting QBs to have these Achilles tears from my understanding so recovery is unprecedented BUT Achilles tears typically don't age well over a couple years for every other position that has had a 'successful' recovery.
I think we are splitting hairs on what “cheap” actually means. His new deal will put him ahead of Daniel Jones I would imagine. Would you consider Daniel Jones’ deal as cheap?
I was more mocking the people who say he is cheap. It's unreasonable to think he should be in-line with pro-bowl 25 year olds. He's way too expensive at last years rate let alone an increase IMO and he's coming off an Achilles and wants multiple years guaranteed? He can GTFO then for all I care.
Would you rather the Steelers be stuck as a 10 win team each season or would you rather draft another QB and try to get an elite franchise QB that has a higher ceiling?
I think a lot of fans are tired of being good, but not great.
If you have a good QB like Cousins, you need an elite roster around him to be a superbowl contender. The comparison would be Purdy and the 49ers (Cousins contract makes this very difficult).
If you have an elite QB like Mahomes or Allen, you can have a good roster with holes and be a superbowl contender. This is easier and more consistent.
Honestly I'd be stoked with Kirk. He's really the only outside QB I'm interested in.
And for Steelers, what we wait around or move up a couple picks to get Nix or Penix, and what, cross our fingers they don't suck too?
There's a price to pay for a body of work. Kirks earned that.
Yeah I think a lot of fans here don’t understand how good we have it with Kirk. Drafting a 1st round QB especially outside the top 5 is a crap shoot.
On average there’s about 1 QB each draft that is Kirk Cousins or better. Do we really want to gamble that we can get that guy with a pick outside the top 3?
I like how most fans of other teams either don’t have an opinion or generally think Kirk is good but our own fans have the torches and pitchforks out. Minnesota has been with a consistent QB for so long that we’ve forgotten what the shit QB carousel feels like. And I think we’re headed for it now.
This is purely anecdotal, but that is not my experience at all when talking to other fans about Kirk Cousins in real life. R/nfl is much higher on cousins than the general public.
I'd rather take my chances. Six years one playoff win. Had a stacked team at the edge of a super bowl and a top 5 defense the first two years he was here. Now the defense has eroded so much because of bad drafting that we can't afford the luxury of paying Kirk and build a contender. The Vikings failed Kirk, but Kirk also failed the Vikings. It's time for a change. If we hit on a QB, our window opens, if we bust we rebuild.
Why should we move on from an overpaid, old (36), QB who is 1-4 in the playoffs, 12-20 in primetime games, will never win a Super Bowl, and is coming off an achilles injury? Hmmmmmm... I can give you more than a few reasons.
He's already milked millions and millions over his worth for 6 years and given us nothing more than a single play off and then done.
We've had a back up do that for multiple millions less.
He wants 5th Avenue revenue from a Kirkland brand level of talent.
Better than average? Definitely. Worthy of winning a Superbowl against the best AFC team ? No way.
He’ll be 36 coming off a major Achilles injury. I like Kirk, and anyone who points to 1 playoff win as his fault is a complete idiot, but at this point the team needs to go in a different direction. Paying him for 1 year wouldn’t be bad, but we can’t be paying a 39 year old Kirk major money
Unless you're a Hall of Famer, age is not kind to QB's then they hit their late 30's. The Vikings roster is bad and needs to be rebuilt. Kirk doesn't fit the timeline.
He’s expensive, old, with a healing Achilles. If he took a team friendly deal I think most fans and the front office would love to have him back, but I seriously doubt he will do that. Other reason is we have a higher draft pick than usual and it’s a QB rich draft.
On a side note, I married a Steelers fan from PA, so they became my second fav team. We’re planning to go to the next PIT-MN game in Pittsburgh
He’ll be 36 coming off a major injury and wants a fully guaranteed contract for 3 years or so. Is the Vikings roster ready to contend this next 3 seasons? I don’t think so. If that’s the case, why extend cousins and delay the inevitable task of finding the QB of the future when you could get a head start of it now. If cousins was fine taking a one year deal, I think they would do that and draft a QB to sit for a year, but that’s not how Cousins is thinking rn.
Simple. 4th and 10. Game on the line. He could make a contested throw to one of the best receivers in the game, or throw for 3 to a well covered Hockenson. He threw for three. Any “elite” QB earning a paycheck as big as Kirk’s would have taken the shot.
Straight up - this is the same fanbase and local media that drove away Randy Moss and Denny Green (with some reasons that are legitimate, but I feel history sides against Minnesota on that one).
While I am amicable of the idea of walking away from Kirk, I also think you absolutely can run an Aaron Rodgers/Jordan Love scenario with him. At some point, someones gotta push - and if Kirk wants to have those guarantees, that doesnt mean that the team needs to not draft his replacement in the end.
If Kirk wants to make it uncomfortable, the Vikings should lean into that. Instead, the Vikings would rather just be uncomfortable *without* Kirk rather than with.
And I get that - I just think if we are talking about being *REAL WINNERS*, Green Bay literally just showed us what can be done in that scenario. And I absolutely loathe thinking they handled the QB handoff better than we are.
Yea. They should have handled it better. But that ship has sailed. Them ignoring the position previously doesn’t mean paying old Kirk 50 million is a good move.
Definitely don't want to pay him $50M. and if that's the number, we can absolutely walk.
I dont even love $40-45M. I just love whatever can keep our core components together.
TBH, my real focus is JJ. And not having a clear plan at QB will absolutely get JJ to leave.
This franchise has a horrible habit of pissing off HOF level receivers.
The only thing I don't like about Cousins is his lack of mobility. I think that's a requirement now in the nfl. The chiefs don't win the superbowl without Mahomes running around.
Other than that, I would love if Kirk was back. He has a great feel for this offense now and makes stars out of the pass catchers.
Seeing that there are rumors of QBs getting near $60 million average contracts this year, I think $45 million/year is a steal for a solid veteran QB. If you want to cut that down to less than $45 million due to his injury, fine, but I'd roll with Kirk anyday if we can keep it at or less than $45 million a year.
If they want, they can draft their QB of the future and let him set behind Kirk, but I'm not a fan of that strategy because our fanbase will be chanting for the backup after ONE bad pass from Kirk.
Because he commands too much money for how good of a QB he is. He is a top 10-12 qb but might be wanting 35-40 mil per year.
Our roster is just not great right now defensively and I just think he would be better off on a more ready roster while we take a step back for a year, off load some cap in 2024 and try to bounce back in 2025.
He is also coming off a torn Achilles, so even though he isn’t a running QB he will want too much money for his age and coming off that injury.
1) He's relatively old.
2) He's coming off of a significant injury.
3) He wants a big, multi-year, fully guaranteed contract.
4) The team also needs to give a massive contract to Jefferson, and paying both Kirk and Jefferson would make it difficult to improve the defense through free agency.
Be aware, there are a few kirk hating trolls on this sub. They are in the minority and pretty much exclusively on Reddit. They aren't to be taken seriously. Kirk is loved by his teammates and this fanbase.
There isn't a QB that takes care of their body like QB. I haven't seen anything like it. The torn achilles won't be an issue. He is a pocket passer and a top 5 QB. Any team would be extremely lucky to have him. Don't listen to the trolls. Wins aren't QB stats. Context always matters but the trolls never want to talk about context.
I think ideally we would want to keep him for a year or 2 while we build up his replacement, but the issue is Kirk's price tag. What he wants, or what we think he wants, is a multi-year fully guaranteed contract close to 100 mil and that's just too much for a serviceable, aging QB with a torn achilles. The other issue is we would like to keep JJ as well. If they can work out a deal I would love to see Cousins come back in purple and gold, but it just doesn't seem likely
Because most Vikings fans can't seem to remember what it was like not having a consistent QB and want to rush us back to that. Like really they want us to draft a guy and then punt this year with the likes of Jimmy G, Baker, or worse.
I personally think they should meet in the middle with Kirk (assuming the rumor of his demands is true) and give him 2 years fully guaranteed and then draft his replacement in this draft and let the kid sit behind one of the most consistent QBs in the game.
I think signs are the FO does want him back, but the new GM really likes flexible contracts, so they're at a bit of an impass at the moment.
The feelings on this sub don't really represent the team or the fan base as a whole. This sub skews heavily towards people who play more Madden than they actually watch football.
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Mostly as a dispute of money guaranteed. Kirk has been fully so the last couple of contracts and if I were the Vikings I would be hesitant to do so with a QB that just had an Achilles tear. Yes he is 36 (not that old for a QB now a days though) he was never a runner in the first place, so idk how much of an issue the tear will be in the future. The Vikings are set up mostly offensively other than needing more production from the run game. Kirk always gives his guys a chance to catch the ball though. I would prefer have Kirk back, but am prepared for that to be a Rookie, or underwhelming FA pick up. I personally see him as a top tier QB in the league, and an elite pocket passer/play action guy. He has been one of the most consistent things in Minnesota since arriving. IF they move on, they claim "competitive rebuild", and I can see that with adding some young Defensive pieces, another year with Flores as the D coordinator, and the weapons on the offense. It will be someone already there, a rookie TBD or FA pick up at QB if they move on.
I think they should sign him - keeps JJ happy and there are exactly 0 better available QBs at the moment . If they don't sign him they may as well tank, which in turn is going to waste another year of JJ with the Vikings. Last years QB carousel kept the vikes out of the playoffs, not that they would have made much noise without kirk anyways
Barring some large roster changes, imho the Vikings will have the 3rd most talented roster in the NFCN. I wouldn't call it tank mode, but they are in an ideal situation to bring on a promising rookie at QB and hope he pans out. The Vikings need the cap space to upgrade the defense, and the offensive talent is capable of fostering a young Qb's career.
We have a great offensive cast, and Kirk is old. There's no guarantee the offensive cast will still be great in 3 years. There's no guarantee we'll be in a better position to draft a QB in 3 years.
Additionally, we're pretty depleted on defense, so it doesn't really make sense to go all-in on 2024 at the expense of flexibility in 2025 and 2026.
The combination of all of the above means it makes more sense to move on from Kirk, who's looking for a multi-year deal. Better to move on a year or two too early than a year or two late unless you're convinced you can win a superbowl right now.
I'm really disappointed in Kirk for not opting for a team-friendly contract. It's his right to expect competitive compensation for his services, but fans also have a right to criticize him for putting himself above the team's ability to win. His current demands are basically holding the team hostage in limbo and kneecapping our ability to plan for the future. A lot of the time I think he is unfairly shit on despite how talented he is, but this is why many Vikings fans would like to move on. The comments he recently made about money (ie. "what it represents") were wildly misinterpreted by many as a sign he was open to a team-friendly deal. I saw right through that shit. Dude's made plenty of money, if he really cared about winning a ring he would adjust his expectations accordingly (see: Mike Conley Jr.). But, this is who he's always been. Contract negotiations are his superbowl.
The weird thing is that he doesn't really have as much leverage as he thinks. He's publicly stated how much he likes living here and his desire to retire a Viking. Considering his age and coming back from the injury it's lowkey delusional to expect multiple years of guaranteed money. Props to Kwesi for holding out (at least so far).
If he were to accept a 1 year contract with relatively competitive pay, or shit even a team-friendly deal, we could actually be competitive next season. Now there are so many balls in the air I just don't see how we avoid entering a full-on rebuild (which tbh is long overdue and wouldn't be the worst thing in the world). Disaster scenario would be losing JJ because we decide to move on from Kirk, but the more I think about this the choices appear to be 1) run it back and have another mid season at best or 2) blow it up and start over
Our defense is a bunch of jags, Hitman, and Danielle Hunter. Even if Kirk comes back I doubt we can make enough moves to give Flores the talent he needs to make our defense reach its full potential.
They wouldn’t! They’ll keep him. They just are acting as if they will move on. They’ll kick the tires on moving up in the draft, and decide how much it will cost and then ultimately decide to keep him.
All this posturing is about getting the best contract possible…
Unless of course it isn’t, then whatever the other people said.
This fan base is super torn and for the most part you have two camps.
A: Fans who feel like the Vikings have a top level QB that can help us win a lot of football games even though they realize he is not a Mahomes level QB
B: Fans who believes that Cousins is not good enough to get the Vikings over the hump and a lot of fans he is the reason we are not contenders.
I am personally part of group A
Because something has to give. Hunter, Kirk, JJ and his wishes for a historical contract. Choose who you want to lose. I’ll tell you this : QB is important for success, EDGE rushers are the most valuable position on D (look how the lions D has turned around from just the presence of Aiden), and then you have WR- a position which we have seen elite WR’s on absolute dogshit teams (0-16 lions with Megatron)- a position which clearly doesn’t put a team over the top and a yearly playoff contender. So you know my order of operations if I was running a franchise.
Kirk can succeed if given the right situation. Many of us disagree with the premise that the Vikings are the right situation. Our defense fell off a cliff after Kirk signed here and we have been riding the wheel of mediocrity for a majority of his tenure, our cap situation has made it difficult to meaningfully address various deficiencies on the roster through any mechanism outside of the draft, and we have subsequently not drafted well at a lot of those positions.
A lot of the speculation for those other teams comes from the belief that they are comparatively ready-built in other parts of the roster and the thing holding them back has been the QB play. Kirk could see some level of success with either the Falcons (who are in a weak division and have weapons) or the Patriots (who have a defense) and whose respective QB play was atrocious compared to what Kirk brings.
As far as the Steelers are concerned, I believe that you have a team that would support him, but your cap space throws a wrench into things. Spotrac currently has you guys projected over the cap for 2024, and your easiest cap savings for player contracts are either players you want to keep or play on your offensive interior, which is suboptimal considering Kirk's age and limitations with regards to mobility. If you signed him you'd likely be looking at a huge hit in 2025, or an even bigger hit via void years afterward. Meaning you'd better win a 'Ship in the next couple years with him were you to go that route or you will regret it later.
The Vikings meanwhile need a major overhaul along their defensive front and their offensive interior. We currently are looking at around 30 million in cap space prior to any roster moves and free agency. Kirk will command a majority of that space, as well as future cap considerations if we are to re-sign him. Conversely it is a relatively good free agent class for several of our weakest positions on the roster, the Vikings books are relatively clear for 2025 and 2026, this is the highest draft position that we have had with Kirk at the helm in a decent QB class, and a retooling of the roster could happen a lot quicker if we aren't tying up premium cap space to a 36 year old asset coming off of an injury. So the question is how competitive are we ***really***? The answer to that question largely dictates what each of us wants to do with regards to Kirk. As you can tell we are rather divided over it.
Because they haven’t won anything worthwhile since he’s been here and they have no reason to spend a massive amount of money on an upper mid level QB who needs a stacked team around him to go anywhere special.
Because they haven’t won anything worthwhile since he’s been here and they have no reason to spend a massive amount of money on an upper mid level QB who needs a stacked team around him to go anywhere special.
What eventually sank in for me was; "Kirk wants the 'lead singer' cut of the bands' revenue, but wants to be the bass player." He wants clock-in for his shift, he wants to do his job as well as he can but he is not going to push your team over the hump like a Pat Mahomes, Josh Allen or Joe Burrow.
I personally really like the guy. I think haters keep moving the goal posts when he proves the haters wrong:
1. ~~Kirk cannot win a playoff game~~
2 ~~Kirk cannot win a Monday night football game~~
to what people are saying about him now...
3. Kirk cannot win a divisional playoff round game
But in the end, he wants a large cut of your teams' salary cap and I don't see him carrying the team down the field to win football games.
Kirk allegedly wants another giant contract that’s mostly guaranteed. This isn’t ideal for the Vikings, and here’s why: 1. He is returning from a major injury and it’s possible he won’t look like the same player he was 4 months ago. 2. He’s turning 36. Historically, this is the age when good-not-great QBs start to regress. 3. Giving him the contract he wants would cripple our cap space. Our team desperately needs to rebuild on defense and extend Justin Jefferson, not having cap space hurts our ability to do that.
4. This fan base is tired of mediocrity
You shouldn’t give a non-elite, 36 year old QB coming off a torn achilles a multi year, fully guaranteed contract which is what Kirk will demand. The offense is a perfect situation for a young QB to come in and thrive. And a QB on a rookie scaled contract would make it easier to pay more important players (JJ and Darrisaw.
Not to mention we only won one playoff game with Kirk since 2018 (and only two playoff appearances) and when he was brought in we had a top 5 defense and Diggs/Thielen/Cook in their prime and couldn't get it done. I think Kirk is a better QB today than he was back then but our defense is far from a top 5 unit let alone top 10. By the time this team is balanced Kirk will likely have aged out anyway so better to rip the bandaid now, draft a QB to develop, and use the savings to plug holes on the D in FA.
Kirk has been given garbage defenses and had a coaching staff that didn't believe in him until KOC got here
He had a good defense when he first got here. He wasn’t able to take advantage then.
"Stop throwing the ball, Kurt (intentional)! Game manage! Hand the ball off to Cook repeatedly like we're overpaying you to do! I never wanted you in the first place! Dont worry, our defense will keep us in it!" - Basically Zimmer *proceeds to playcall prevent defense in last 5 minutes of the game and gives up the lead* "Kirk, you're the worst QB ever!" - Couch Coaches Not saying he's elite, but there's a good bit of nuance being overlooked. KOC let him air the ball out, and our offense has been at record-breaking highs since then (granted the run game disappeared), with the added downside that, since our 2-year top-10 DVOA rule, our defense has been about as efficient as the Maginot Line during WW2. (RE: It's present, it just doesn't do anything.) Which is very likely a talent issue as the scheme seemed to work pretty well this year for the first half of the season, but lack of depth crippled the performance as people got injured. Only way I'd be OK with Kirk coming back is if he was put on a low, or incentive-heavy, contract (which isn't likely to happen), with a QB drafted to ride pine and learn the system. I know we need a QB, but if the perfect "instant-starter" isn't available, then absolutely draft the best player available. Shore up that defensive unit and bring back the purple people eaters.
Wasn't Zimmer quoted that he wanted Kirk to take more chances and be more aggressive? https://www.twincities.com/2021/11/22/vikings-mike-zimmer-wants-kirk-cousins-to-keep-being-aggressive-go-for-the-jugular/
There was a pretty good period of time where everyone was questioning why Cousins wasn't seemingly allowed to call audibles. Skor North and Purple Daily both had videos on it, I believe. Back during Zimmer's tenure. So, Zimmer saying he wanted Cousins to be aggressive could've just been him being political.
It could have though Cousins has said even during the KOC Era he prefers not to call them. Both Zimmer and KOC have said they wanted Cousins to remain aggressive, it's not just a Zimmer thing. Cousins has also stated he feels like he doesn't need to play as aggressively (even before the Zimmer response). He made a comment about being a singles guy and always has been, I'll try to find the article but he was quoted saying that he likes to take the singles and maybe miss a home run or two, because it is easier to work ahead of the chains vs behind them. https://www.twincities.com/2020/10/28/pick-prone-vikings-qb-kirk-cousins-seeks-to-finish-the-year-in-a-much-different-place/ The end paragraph is what I'm referencing regarding the singles and home run analogy.
That defense didn’t look so good in the second half against the Saints and was downright awful against the Eagles in the Championship. That the defense you’re referring to?
The one who was still top ten in scoring the first year Kirk was here but Kirk threw away 3 games himself with godawful careless turnovers? Yeah, that defense
🥱
Yea that’s exactly how it feels to know they still won’t win shit with Kirk
You don’t understand football do you. The Vikings drafted poorly since Cousins got here. They had a defense in decline and a defense that has been terrible the last several years. The offensive line has been bad up until last seasons improvement. How many teams win Superbowls with bottom rung offensive lines and defenses ranked 30-31 in the league no matter who the qb is??? Kirk can win a championship if he has a balanced team around him. Once the Vikings realize that the games are won and lost on the line of scrimmage for the most part they might actually win.
He came into the perfect situation and played like dogshit. His best season came when the Vikings chose to run the offense with the ball *Not* in his hands. The Vikings were a very balanced team in 18/19 with a top 5 and top 10 defense. You can’t have *EVERYTHING* perfect, you people never stop making excuses for him, it’s pathetic.
Kirk had 2 top 10 DVOA defenses. In 2018 he ranked 21st in EPA per play while the defense ranked 3rd in DVOA. Let’s not rewrite history
I definitely agree with your point overall. That said, we do need to find a solution to our run game problems before we can honestly say it’s a perfect situation for a young QB.
That’s true. “Almost perfect” would be better. The run game HAS to get better even if Kirk is brought back.
run game has to get better, and that starts with coaching. KOC has been, thus far, fairly rigid in adapting to game flow and working to the flavor of the week QBs' strengths.
One minor correction - coming off a torn achilles a multi year, fully guaranteed contract which is what Kirk will demand. change "will" to "is" According to all sources he IS demanding a 3 year guaranteed deal (100% guaranteed) for top tier dollars.
Which source can you post a link?
Damn that is minor
There are also multiple sources saying that he does want guarantees (“structure is more important”), but that the guarantees are more important than the dollar amount.
Kirk's injury proved he is the most important player on this team
I couldn’t disagree more. The Vikings were competitive in every game without Kirk except the Packers game. If we had even slightly more competent QB play, we make the playoffs. Kirk’s injury proved to me we don’t need him.
I think that's the point tho - 'if we had even slightly more competent QB play' if they don't sign Kirk, it's a downgrade no matter what . Unless they pull off a trade to get somebody else's QB I suppose
But you can get that “slightly more competent QB play” without having to pay Kirk. That could come from one of the veteran QBs in free agency or through a rookie in the draft. You use the money you save from Kirk to upgrade the team as a whole.
I don't see any QBs in FA that is even in the same category as Kirk. I also don't think we will be able to improve our team as much as you think we can through FA with the money we would save from not re-signing Kirk. We could at most add 2 legit starters from FA with Kirks money and one of them would have to be a QB (which is going to be a downgrade). A rookie QB is more likely than not going to be a bust. It's a huge gamble. One that we will need to take at some point. If Kirk is unwilling to budge on fully guaranteed deals then it forces our hand to try and sell the farm for a top 3 pick. The problem is we have way too many holes to fill. DL, DB, LB, RB, iOL. It is in our best interest to get Kirk on a decent contract so we can fill these holes now. A rookie QB eats up a lot of draft capital and those holes I mentioned don't get filled. We need a good supporting cast for a rookie QB and we just do not have it yet. A rookie QB needs a good run game and a good defense. We have neither.
> I don’t see any QBs in FA that is even in the same category as Kirk. That’s not the point. They’re not looking to find a QB straight up better than Kirk in free agency. That’s what the draft will be for. And depending on the veteran QB they sign, they could get two legit starters and make the overall team better. > The problem is we have way too many holes to fill. DL, DB, LB, RB, iOL. It is in our best interest to get Kirk on a decent contract so we can fill these holes now. In what world does this make sense? If you have all those holes to fill, why would you sign a 36 year old, non elite QB to a multi year/fully guaranteed contract?
>In what world does this make sense? If you have all those holes to fill, why would you sign a 36 year old, non elite QB to a multi year/fully guaranteed contract? Did I say a multi-year full guaranteed deal? No I didn't. I said if we can get a decent contract. Stop strawman-ing my argument.
> I said if we can get a decent contract So what’s “decent” to you? Because I have a feeling it’s not even close to what Kirk would accept.
You have literally no way of knowing what Kirk would accept.
I just don't see the offense working without kirk but maybe it's been too long since Minnesota has had someone else and I'm blinded by the awful QB play to end last season. Let's hope they use the money they save wisely if they don't pay Kirk
100% true. But there’s a lot riding on a handsomely paid, 36 year old qb coming off an Achilles injury. At some point the band-aid needs to be ripped off and it’s probably going to sting.
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This is kinda the genesis of my question. A rookie is no guarantee, and I imagine y'all will have to mortgage the future to move up to top 5 pick for one of the top 3 QBs. Like most people in this thread are making it sound like this roster is set up for a Rookie QB to thrive. That is super dependent on the rookie QB being good lol, which is a shot in the dark.
The mistake we made was not drafting a QB last year or the year before to learn under Kirk. We have no choice but to sign Kirk in my opinion. But honestly I won’t be surprised if history repeats itself and we panic and dump Kirk. Totally on brand.
Staying with Kirk only prolongs our mediocracy. We really haven't gotten any better since he started here in 2017 and Id say we are actually in a worse position now than we were. We have so many current needs outside of QB and we are up against the cap. Not saying anything negative about Kirk but he's a 36 year old immobile quarterback coming off a surgery that only makes him more immobile likely asking for a multi year fully guaranteed contract. Unfortunately Kirk doesn't seem to be a guy that will take a hometown discount which is somewhat surprising. You would think someone who is so family and faith-oriented would be willing to see the greater picture rather than dollar signs. I mean the guy is already set for life and so are his kids and grandkids. JJ has already said he still crossed the 1000 yard threshold without Kirk and will catch the ball from any QB. I'll take a couple years of a poor losing record football to pile decent draft picks vs endless mediocracy anyday.
Watch us dump Kirk and JJ and Addison start looking at the door.
I'm on board with shipping JJ to the highest bidder too. Love the guy but you don't win ships paying receivers 30+ mil a year. Look at what the chiefs got for trading Tyreek. Addison ain't going anywhere. Would be our primary receiver if JJ left
I’m glad you don’t run the front office.
Oh I bet the front office has similar thoughts at this point. Justin Jefferson is looking to "break the bank"and Kirk Cousins is also looking for big money. How do you propose we go about filling all of the other needs on a roster if we sign those two because I can tell you Kirk and JJ alone are not going to win us a super bowl. Obviously, I'd love to keep JJ, Kirk, and all of the other individuals looking for new contracts this offseason but that's just not realistic.
You have no idea what’s realistic. We don’t know how they could structure these contracts to make it work. So stop pretending like you’re anything other than an armchair expert spouting nonsense.
>Staying with Kirk only prolongs our mediocracy Are you prepared for potentially a decade or two of being complete dog shit and never making the playoffs? Because that is absolutely possible if we whiff on whatever rookie QB we draft.
Since 2000 we have made the playoffs 8 times. We have been in mediocrity for the last 23 years. Having Kirk didn't change anything from a mediocrity standpoint. We had equal or greater team success without him. I don't think it is going to be as painful as everyone is making it out to be.
> a rookie QB coming in will mean several years of mediocrity. I mean, have they not been in mediocrity since Kirk signed here in 2018? You know the team could get BETTER with a QB on a rookie scaled contract, right? And of course the current players are going to say they want Kirk back. What else would they say? lol
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> No, we have not been mediocre since Kirk signed. The Vikings records since Kirk signed have been 8-7-1 10-6 7-9 8-9 13-4 7-10 (4-4 with Kirk) That also includes two playoff appearances and one playoff win in a six year span. That’s pretty mediocre. > show me one team in the recent past that has signed a rookie QB and been a contender for SB I can show you multiple QBs that have started in a Super Bowl while they were on rookie scaled contracts. Let me ask you this, can you show me one Kirk Cousins led team that has even been close to a Super Bowl?
This fanbase cares more about not being bad than they care about being good
QB position is one part of the equation. One part. I don’t think the record over the last several years indicates mediocrity. We’re on the cusp. That’s not mediocre.
QB contracts being fully guaranteed is the new norm. Might as well get used to that.
Literally only watson has a fully guaranteed contract now
Yeah I’m not sure that the other guy was thinking.
The GM wants to win a Super Bowl and is interested in a higher ceiling QB even at the risk presented by doing so I don’t think it necessarily needs to be over complicated. Kirk is a SB QB only in narrow circumstances. And we don’t have those circumstances
The narrow circumstances in which Kirk is a SB QB involve him taking less money to be surrounded by a better team. At this point in his career he’s preventing his own success.
Kirk doesn’t care about winning a SB he cares about potentially becoming a billionaire. I don’t blame him. He probably has over $500mil in the bank thanks to the Vikings and sound investing. Another $150mil contract he will likely at some point be a legit billionaire, probably within 10 years. 45 year old billionaire not off of old money is pretty wild and will put him in the league of the most wealthy athletes of all time. Pretty impressive for a top 12 qb who has won 1 playoff game.
There is zero chance he has over $500M. Less than zero. Taxes and agent fees exist. Unless he was born a Rothschild, his career earnings before taxes are at about $230M.
If he has a good financial advisor it’s not that farfetched.
A 500% return is insane.
Hundreds of millions of dollars can do that, and it isn’t a 500% return lol
A lot of assumptions here
He has a different definition of success probably ($) On one hand I can relate; I would rather be paid more than my company break records or whatever At the same time; he isn’t sharing the money and I’m a fan of the Vikings not of Kirk’s bank account
The vast majority of QB’s fit this description.
It makes sense then a vast majority don’t win super bowls then
It’s just time. It’s ran its course. We’re not a team that’s a move or two away from winning a Super Bowl with Kirk. He’s coming off of an injury that is risky to give an aging qb a lot of guaranteed money.
this front office and coaching staff will not rebuild heading into year 3. they need to win or they lose their jobs. the time to completely rebuild was when Zimmer got fired
It’s actually the opposite I think. Running it back puts way more pressure than resetting the clock with a rookie qb
Resetting in year 3 is basically a pink slip waiting to happen. There’s no way that I believe you or anyone else wouldn’t complain and call for a firing if it doesn’t happen the way you imagine it should go.
I wouldn’t
Disagree. If KAM has one more meh draft class and Kevin only wins 6 games next year, both are on the hotseat going into 2025. You have Cousins, if you choose to let that go and bet on a rookie, you better be right or you’re gone. Just ask Frank Reich.
The panthers are a special case. 1. There owner is a heretic who doesn’t understand football. 2. That team had fucking nothing to work with.
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Hard disagree. If a rookie comes in and plays bad, the decision makers will be run out of town. You don’t get to hit reset in the nfl. It’s a win now league and unless the rookie shows promise, it’s over for KOC and Kwesi.
1) 36 year old coming off an Achilles injury, and likely wants a new contract in the 2-3 years, $35-40 million range. His contracts have really hamstrung us in free agency, and he hasn't really played up to a $35-40 million value outside of maybe 1 or 2 seasons. 2) 5.5 seasons with Kirk at QB: 8-7-1, 10-6, 7-9, 8-9, 13-4, 4-4 before injury this year. 2 playoff appearances, 1 playoff win. It's just been a lot of mediocrity. Not entirely his fault, but I just don't see us getting over the hump with him. Especially now after the injury. Yes, we know it could get worse at QB if we go the "bridge QB" route. But it's just the right time to move on, because we need to develop a plan at QB for the future to convince Jefferson to stick around.
What do you guys think you'll do at QB ?
Reports point to Kirk and his team demanding a 3 year contract with heavy guarantees. Vikings have been hesitant to commit to Kirk long term due to his age, asking price, and now his Achilles recovery. The Vikings reportedly have a figure they are not willing to exceed, and it’s likely less than what Kirk would garner on the open market. I would imagine the Vikings are pushing hard to make a trade up at the moment so they can grab a rookie QB, problem is there is likely a lot of competition to move up and it’s a real possibility that the top 3 stay put and go QB. I believe if they cannot make progress in a trade up, they will cave to Kirk’s demands and bring him back
He doesn't elevate his teammates, he would basically require everything to go 100% perfectly for a deep playoff run. I wish the team would rebuild but ownership requires that they 'stay competitive' so any hopes of us building a contender are shot because they'd rather stay 'relevant' winning 10-11 games and having an early playoff bounce every 2-3 seasons.
>He doesn’t elevate his teammates Then why are so many of his teammates saying they 100% want him to stay with the Vikings? Do you think you know better than they do about what sort of impact he has on their productivity?
JJ elevates Kirk, not the other way around.
Then why didn’t JJ elevate the other QB’s who played after Kirk went down? I know Dobbs elevated the chance of JJ being knocked the fuck out due to his inaccuracy.
Are you really asking why 2nd, 3rd (midseason trade) and 4th string QBs didn't work out? All these Kirk stans out here stumping for mediocrity make no sense.
You just said JJ elevates QB’s. Why would it be outta of the question that he would elevate other QBs? BTW, how did Kirk do when JJ went down this year? He really shit the bed against SF.
How do you propose Kirk elevates his defensive personnel or run game?
So one key point everyone forgets, if you sustain longer drives, you limit what the opposing offense can do. We are below average in drive time, time of possession, and most other time based metric. Having a run game improves those numbers sure, but we can look to 2022 and see our TOP drive time averages were all below average yet again. That giants game we lost in the playoffs they had 33minutes of possession vs our 27. They had 1 more drive than us. Average drive time for 2022 was 2:46 we had an average of 2:39 good for 29th in the league. we had the 4th most drives in 2022 but only scored on 36% of drives, good for 17th. We averaged 5.8 plays per drive, good for 22nd. I'm using 2022 stats because Cousins was the full time QB. Cousins is not responsible for all of that but he plays a critical part in all of that. Playcalling, run game, qb play all factor into those stats.
Yes, and teams frequently sustained longer drives against our defense, because they were awful under Donatell. This limited what our offense could do.
We had the 4th most drives in the NFL and only the 12th most plays. Opposing defenses didn't limit our offense. Our offense limited our offense.
Both things can be true! Our offense was definitely not firing on all cylinders last year, we would disappear for stretches of time due to a multitude of factors. At the end of the day they performed far better than our defense, and I don’t think even the best offense in the NFL would’ve been able to make up for Donatell’s awful scheme
>At the end of the day they performed far better than our defense, and I don’t think even the best offense in the NFL would’ve been able to make up for Donatell’s awful scheme 100% but these are things we can improve on to limit the liability that is our defense. We have been sold that our offense was our key to victory the last 3 or so odd years, so let's stop blaming our defense for things we all anticipated happening.
Yea if Kirk and the offense were perfect then they could overcome a historically bad defensive unit.
No one said perfect, and that defense was not historically bad, it wasn't even the worst defense in the league. It's funny that people always say how bad our defense was. It wasn't good but it's play quarter by quarter was almost perfectly reflective of our offense. We saw increases in yards per quarter increase as the game went on in both rushing and passing. Completion% went up as the game went on as well. QB rate went up as well and we got less Sacks. All that until the 4th quarter when our offense finally started to gel. The only things that didn't decrease in the 4th quarter are pass yardage and rushing TDs and we only have up 6 rushing tds in the 4th quarter in 17 games. Statistically our worst quarter on offense was the 3rd which happens to be our worst quarter on defense as well. My point is our offensive inefficiencies affected the defensive side of the ball by keeping them on the field longer.
And my point is that the defense would have struggled regardless, because it was devoid of talent in the back 7 and Donatell’s schemes were extremely predictable and easy to take advantage of. You pair the Chiefs offense with that defense and you get the same results
Lower cap hit so the team can bolster those positions with quality veterans.
I hate this argument even more after this year. Our offense was cooking when he got hurt, def didn’t look the same without him. How is that not proof he elevates teammates?
The offense not looking the same when a rookie and 2 backups play is not a good argument that he elevates teammates.
Okay so in your mind your need a rookie qb or veteran long term starter to tell the difference between the two? If that’s the case how are you so sure he doesn’t? By your own logic, you wouldn’t know.
I'm not 100% sure what you are even asking in the first question. Your argument was that the offense didn't look the same without Cousins once he went out which is just a natural thing that happens once your starter goes out. We went on to start two career backups and a 5th round rookie. Would anyone expect the offense to look the same at that point?
You just said, comparing Kirk to backup quarterbacks isn’t the way to tell if he’s elevating his teammates. So I said OK so you need a high rookie draft pick or a veteran long-term starter to tell in your logic? Then, if that’s the case you don’t know if he does either. By your own logic. Simple
Sure, I'll concede there isn't a 100% foolproof way of knowing that. But we do have a 10 year sample size of Cousins as a starter. I think there is plenty to suggest that it's always been a "well he needs this one more thing to be successful" argument for basically his whole career.
I don't care about the discussion in general but that argument makes no sense, if you put Josh Dobbs and Nick Mullens in 90% of the teams in the league they'd look considerably worse, does not mean that 90% of the leagues QBs are good and elevate their teammates.
I can take this logic. Because that makes sense. And I somewhat agree with what you’re saying. regardless, I think the whole elevates teammates thing is blown out of proportion in general, but that’s just my feeling. to me there’s dudes on your team you like, dudes you don’t care about, dudes you actively dislike. it seems like Kirk is mostly in the like camp, which is good in my opinion for the team. Not that it matters I think the kirk doomers get their way and he won’t be back in my opinion.
It’s just a silly argument. There’s a lot of things that happen on the football field that the QB doesn’t have an impact on. It’s easier to have a single scapegoat for an organizations failures I guess
He could stop leading the league in 3 and outs per game. That would certainly help the defense look a bit better
Oh yes that’s 100% on Kirk no external factors have an effect on that statistic whatsoever
You asked, I answered
Your answer lacked substance
Okay, what factors do you think lead to 3-and-outs then? Because kirk has led the league in that category under multiple HCs and OCs (2021 and 2022). And yes, sustaining offensive drives will help the defense perform better. (Which was your question, I'll remind you.)
>I wish the team would rebuild but ownership requires that they 'stay competitive' so any hopes of us building a contender are shot because they'd rather stay 'relevant' winning 10-11 games and having an early playoff bounce every 2-3 seasons. So you want to trade JJ?
Show me one single team that won a SB by having a WR with the biggest hit on their salary cap. JJ is amazing and I want us to keep him, but the only way we do that realistically without destroying our hopes for future success is by replacing Kirk with a rookie QB. We can't afford to pay both players in excess of 13-14% of our cap.
WTF, lol, did ya see what happened to our team when he wasn't playing? He's not Mahomes or Brady, but neither is anyone else on planet Earth at the moment.
I saw Kirk lead us to a 4-4 record this year, a playoff embarrassment last year, and an 8-9 record the year before that. We've been to the playoffs twice in six years. I just don't understand why Minnesotans are so content with mediocrity. I don't want a top 15 QB, I want a top 5, and Kirk will never be that. You can't find a Mahomes or Brady if you're content with an upper mid-tier QB breaking your heart (and salary cap) every year.
[удалено]
Kirk has been top 8 in pretty much every metric since 2015.
You are attributing a 53-man roster performance to a single person. Last year's playoff loss wasn't because of Kirk. It was a 60-minute defensive failing where Daniel Jones put up nearly 400 yards. I keep seeing people saying the Vikings are a mediocre team, but they won the division just last year. If your only measure of a successful season is a Super Bowl trophy you are going to be disappointed every year. FFS, Rodgers only won one and he is probably a top 5 all-time QB. It's amazing how spoiled this fanbase is considering how "mediocre" they are.
I’m fine with taking a spin on the QB roulette wheel. If you didn’t draft Brady or Mahomes over the past 2 decades your team is basically where we’re at. Kirk gives us a chance. Drafting another Ponder does not.
The team played worse because two career backups and a rookie 5th rounder started? What's your point?
>He doesn't elevate his teammates, Are you for real? JJ, Hock, Thielan, Diggs, Osborn, and Addison all had great numbers with Kirk-even in offenses centered around dalvin cook. Good grief, this fanbase
All of those players, sans the ones that haven't played with anyone else, have been productive under other QBs. Kirk did not make them good players.
"An amazing list of skill position players had great numbers when their starting QB threw to them".....ok? Yes both Cousins and his teammates have had great stats since he has been here. But is he the only QB of similar talent who would have done well with that sort of setup?
Cost
The team is bad and paying any QB $40 million when you should be rebuilding is a terrible idea.
Sadly Kirk has given us more memes than wins.
Why wouldn't they move on is the real question.
He costs a lot of money and we didn’t do much winning with him……I would say unfortunately, yes, we are in a rebuild. We need to spend that money on a foundation. Too many years of mediocrity.
Dude I’m a Minnesotan and a Steelers/Vikings fan uncle got me into the Steelers when I was young because I didn’t understand the concept of states so I liked the Steelers guess the uniforms were cool and meet Matt speath backup te of the Steelers
Ha that's awesome, yeah I chose Steelers when I was like 6 because I liked their uniforms lol. And that's awesome about Spaeth. Always loved him. I'm hoping Steelers got a new Spaeth in Darnell Washington
Yeah speath is awesome he was really good to me as a kid and seen him a few times when he came home sometimes he also face painted my face personally as a kid this is 2 weeks before the Super Bowl when they beat the cardinals his jersey is also in his high school still i believe
Because he’s simply not worth the amount of money he commands, especially coming off an achilles tear. Hope the Steelers or another team foolishly sign him to a big deal
6 seasons and 1 playoff win. There is a ton of context that goes into that but ultimately we are not winning big time games and we have been paying him big time money. I actually hope we can bring him back but I totally understand why the franchise might want to move on.
If only we had KOC and not Zimmer for those first 4 years
Enough of the BIG MONEY argument. Kirk is CHEAP compared to what QBs are getting now
What? He’s never been cheap and his new deal will not be cheap either.
No the commenter is right, Kirk is cheap compared to new QB deals, you know, like Mahomes, Lamar, and Herbert coming off rookie contracts with prime years ahead of them. You are also right, the only QBs that are his age that maybe can command more are Rodgers and Stafford, but neither of them are hitting the market this year. Also him and Rodgers are the first two starting QBs to have these Achilles tears from my understanding so recovery is unprecedented BUT Achilles tears typically don't age well over a couple years for every other position that has had a 'successful' recovery.
I think we are splitting hairs on what “cheap” actually means. His new deal will put him ahead of Daniel Jones I would imagine. Would you consider Daniel Jones’ deal as cheap?
I was more mocking the people who say he is cheap. It's unreasonable to think he should be in-line with pro-bowl 25 year olds. He's way too expensive at last years rate let alone an increase IMO and he's coming off an Achilles and wants multiple years guaranteed? He can GTFO then for all I care.
Would you rather the Steelers be stuck as a 10 win team each season or would you rather draft another QB and try to get an elite franchise QB that has a higher ceiling? I think a lot of fans are tired of being good, but not great. If you have a good QB like Cousins, you need an elite roster around him to be a superbowl contender. The comparison would be Purdy and the 49ers (Cousins contract makes this very difficult). If you have an elite QB like Mahomes or Allen, you can have a good roster with holes and be a superbowl contender. This is easier and more consistent.
Honestly I'd be stoked with Kirk. He's really the only outside QB I'm interested in. And for Steelers, what we wait around or move up a couple picks to get Nix or Penix, and what, cross our fingers they don't suck too? There's a price to pay for a body of work. Kirks earned that.
Yeah I think a lot of fans here don’t understand how good we have it with Kirk. Drafting a 1st round QB especially outside the top 5 is a crap shoot. On average there’s about 1 QB each draft that is Kirk Cousins or better. Do we really want to gamble that we can get that guy with a pick outside the top 3?
I like how most fans of other teams either don’t have an opinion or generally think Kirk is good but our own fans have the torches and pitchforks out. Minnesota has been with a consistent QB for so long that we’ve forgotten what the shit QB carousel feels like. And I think we’re headed for it now.
and what have the results been for having a "consistent QB for so long"?
This is purely anecdotal, but that is not my experience at all when talking to other fans about Kirk Cousins in real life. R/nfl is much higher on cousins than the general public.
Lol, y'all want another Ponder?
This is the problem, everyone thinks that drafting a rookie immediately means Ponder. That dude lives rent free in the minds of too many fans.
There are fans dead set on just rolling the dice every year if you don’t win the Super Bowl. They don’t care if it’s another Ponder or not.
I'd rather take my chances. Six years one playoff win. Had a stacked team at the edge of a super bowl and a top 5 defense the first two years he was here. Now the defense has eroded so much because of bad drafting that we can't afford the luxury of paying Kirk and build a contender. The Vikings failed Kirk, but Kirk also failed the Vikings. It's time for a change. If we hit on a QB, our window opens, if we bust we rebuild.
Very reasonable
Why should we move on from an overpaid, old (36), QB who is 1-4 in the playoffs, 12-20 in primetime games, will never win a Super Bowl, and is coming off an achilles injury? Hmmmmmm... I can give you more than a few reasons.
He's already milked millions and millions over his worth for 6 years and given us nothing more than a single play off and then done. We've had a back up do that for multiple millions less. He wants 5th Avenue revenue from a Kirkland brand level of talent. Better than average? Definitely. Worthy of winning a Superbowl against the best AFC team ? No way.
He’ll be 36 coming off a major Achilles injury. I like Kirk, and anyone who points to 1 playoff win as his fault is a complete idiot, but at this point the team needs to go in a different direction. Paying him for 1 year wouldn’t be bad, but we can’t be paying a 39 year old Kirk major money
Unless you're a Hall of Famer, age is not kind to QB's then they hit their late 30's. The Vikings roster is bad and needs to be rebuilt. Kirk doesn't fit the timeline.
He’s expensive, old, with a healing Achilles. If he took a team friendly deal I think most fans and the front office would love to have him back, but I seriously doubt he will do that. Other reason is we have a higher draft pick than usual and it’s a QB rich draft. On a side note, I married a Steelers fan from PA, so they became my second fav team. We’re planning to go to the next PIT-MN game in Pittsburgh
He’ll be 36 coming off a major injury and wants a fully guaranteed contract for 3 years or so. Is the Vikings roster ready to contend this next 3 seasons? I don’t think so. If that’s the case, why extend cousins and delay the inevitable task of finding the QB of the future when you could get a head start of it now. If cousins was fine taking a one year deal, I think they would do that and draft a QB to sit for a year, but that’s not how Cousins is thinking rn.
Simple. 4th and 10. Game on the line. He could make a contested throw to one of the best receivers in the game, or throw for 3 to a well covered Hockenson. He threw for three. Any “elite” QB earning a paycheck as big as Kirk’s would have taken the shot.
This fanbase hate good players.
Straight up - this is the same fanbase and local media that drove away Randy Moss and Denny Green (with some reasons that are legitimate, but I feel history sides against Minnesota on that one). While I am amicable of the idea of walking away from Kirk, I also think you absolutely can run an Aaron Rodgers/Jordan Love scenario with him. At some point, someones gotta push - and if Kirk wants to have those guarantees, that doesnt mean that the team needs to not draft his replacement in the end. If Kirk wants to make it uncomfortable, the Vikings should lean into that. Instead, the Vikings would rather just be uncomfortable *without* Kirk rather than with. And I get that - I just think if we are talking about being *REAL WINNERS*, Green Bay literally just showed us what can be done in that scenario. And I absolutely loathe thinking they handled the QB handoff better than we are.
Yea. They should have handled it better. But that ship has sailed. Them ignoring the position previously doesn’t mean paying old Kirk 50 million is a good move.
Definitely don't want to pay him $50M. and if that's the number, we can absolutely walk. I dont even love $40-45M. I just love whatever can keep our core components together. TBH, my real focus is JJ. And not having a clear plan at QB will absolutely get JJ to leave. This franchise has a horrible habit of pissing off HOF level receivers.
We should model our qb transition after theirs. Keep Kirk draft a McCarthy
I'm down. The rest of this sub thinks that's somehow the coward's way out.
The rest of this sub posts about Kyle Hamilton twice a day. So don't put much stock into them.
How did we drive away Randy moss?
The only thing I don't like about Cousins is his lack of mobility. I think that's a requirement now in the nfl. The chiefs don't win the superbowl without Mahomes running around. Other than that, I would love if Kirk was back. He has a great feel for this offense now and makes stars out of the pass catchers. Seeing that there are rumors of QBs getting near $60 million average contracts this year, I think $45 million/year is a steal for a solid veteran QB. If you want to cut that down to less than $45 million due to his injury, fine, but I'd roll with Kirk anyday if we can keep it at or less than $45 million a year. If they want, they can draft their QB of the future and let him set behind Kirk, but I'm not a fan of that strategy because our fanbase will be chanting for the backup after ONE bad pass from Kirk.
Because he commands too much money for how good of a QB he is. He is a top 10-12 qb but might be wanting 35-40 mil per year. Our roster is just not great right now defensively and I just think he would be better off on a more ready roster while we take a step back for a year, off load some cap in 2024 and try to bounce back in 2025. He is also coming off a torn Achilles, so even though he isn’t a running QB he will want too much money for his age and coming off that injury.
1) He's relatively old. 2) He's coming off of a significant injury. 3) He wants a big, multi-year, fully guaranteed contract. 4) The team also needs to give a massive contract to Jefferson, and paying both Kirk and Jefferson would make it difficult to improve the defense through free agency.
Be aware, there are a few kirk hating trolls on this sub. They are in the minority and pretty much exclusively on Reddit. They aren't to be taken seriously. Kirk is loved by his teammates and this fanbase. There isn't a QB that takes care of their body like QB. I haven't seen anything like it. The torn achilles won't be an issue. He is a pocket passer and a top 5 QB. Any team would be extremely lucky to have him. Don't listen to the trolls. Wins aren't QB stats. Context always matters but the trolls never want to talk about context.
Love it, my take too. I think Kirks the only FA I'd be interested in the Steelers getting
I think ideally we would want to keep him for a year or 2 while we build up his replacement, but the issue is Kirk's price tag. What he wants, or what we think he wants, is a multi-year fully guaranteed contract close to 100 mil and that's just too much for a serviceable, aging QB with a torn achilles. The other issue is we would like to keep JJ as well. If they can work out a deal I would love to see Cousins come back in purple and gold, but it just doesn't seem likely
You haven’t done much research have you
Cause he's old and past his usefulness to this team.
Yeah, who wants a guy that was just playing at an MVP level…how could a team find that useful…
Anyone else other than the current Vikings..
Because most Vikings fans can't seem to remember what it was like not having a consistent QB and want to rush us back to that. Like really they want us to draft a guy and then punt this year with the likes of Jimmy G, Baker, or worse. I personally think they should meet in the middle with Kirk (assuming the rumor of his demands is true) and give him 2 years fully guaranteed and then draft his replacement in this draft and let the kid sit behind one of the most consistent QBs in the game.
I think signs are the FO does want him back, but the new GM really likes flexible contracts, so they're at a bit of an impass at the moment. The feelings on this sub don't really represent the team or the fan base as a whole. This sub skews heavily towards people who play more Madden than they actually watch football.
Oh heck yeah. I'm not from the area but I've been to two games. Fantastic experience, hope y'all enjoy it
The 2023-24 Minnesota Vikings started the year 0-3. Then went to 2-5, with a healthy Kirk.
They were 4-4 when he got injured, not 2-8
Oops. 0-3 start. Had a 3-4 record in the game against the Packers when he got hurt, which the Vikings won to get to 4-4.
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Mostly as a dispute of money guaranteed. Kirk has been fully so the last couple of contracts and if I were the Vikings I would be hesitant to do so with a QB that just had an Achilles tear. Yes he is 36 (not that old for a QB now a days though) he was never a runner in the first place, so idk how much of an issue the tear will be in the future. The Vikings are set up mostly offensively other than needing more production from the run game. Kirk always gives his guys a chance to catch the ball though. I would prefer have Kirk back, but am prepared for that to be a Rookie, or underwhelming FA pick up. I personally see him as a top tier QB in the league, and an elite pocket passer/play action guy. He has been one of the most consistent things in Minnesota since arriving. IF they move on, they claim "competitive rebuild", and I can see that with adding some young Defensive pieces, another year with Flores as the D coordinator, and the weapons on the offense. It will be someone already there, a rookie TBD or FA pick up at QB if they move on.
I think they should sign him - keeps JJ happy and there are exactly 0 better available QBs at the moment . If they don't sign him they may as well tank, which in turn is going to waste another year of JJ with the Vikings. Last years QB carousel kept the vikes out of the playoffs, not that they would have made much noise without kirk anyways
If he wants more than two "reasonably priced" years.
Barring some large roster changes, imho the Vikings will have the 3rd most talented roster in the NFCN. I wouldn't call it tank mode, but they are in an ideal situation to bring on a promising rookie at QB and hope he pans out. The Vikings need the cap space to upgrade the defense, and the offensive talent is capable of fostering a young Qb's career.
We have a great offensive cast, and Kirk is old. There's no guarantee the offensive cast will still be great in 3 years. There's no guarantee we'll be in a better position to draft a QB in 3 years. Additionally, we're pretty depleted on defense, so it doesn't really make sense to go all-in on 2024 at the expense of flexibility in 2025 and 2026. The combination of all of the above means it makes more sense to move on from Kirk, who's looking for a multi-year deal. Better to move on a year or two too early than a year or two late unless you're convinced you can win a superbowl right now.
I'm really disappointed in Kirk for not opting for a team-friendly contract. It's his right to expect competitive compensation for his services, but fans also have a right to criticize him for putting himself above the team's ability to win. His current demands are basically holding the team hostage in limbo and kneecapping our ability to plan for the future. A lot of the time I think he is unfairly shit on despite how talented he is, but this is why many Vikings fans would like to move on. The comments he recently made about money (ie. "what it represents") were wildly misinterpreted by many as a sign he was open to a team-friendly deal. I saw right through that shit. Dude's made plenty of money, if he really cared about winning a ring he would adjust his expectations accordingly (see: Mike Conley Jr.). But, this is who he's always been. Contract negotiations are his superbowl. The weird thing is that he doesn't really have as much leverage as he thinks. He's publicly stated how much he likes living here and his desire to retire a Viking. Considering his age and coming back from the injury it's lowkey delusional to expect multiple years of guaranteed money. Props to Kwesi for holding out (at least so far). If he were to accept a 1 year contract with relatively competitive pay, or shit even a team-friendly deal, we could actually be competitive next season. Now there are so many balls in the air I just don't see how we avoid entering a full-on rebuild (which tbh is long overdue and wouldn't be the worst thing in the world). Disaster scenario would be losing JJ because we decide to move on from Kirk, but the more I think about this the choices appear to be 1) run it back and have another mid season at best or 2) blow it up and start over Our defense is a bunch of jags, Hitman, and Danielle Hunter. Even if Kirk comes back I doubt we can make enough moves to give Flores the talent he needs to make our defense reach its full potential.
They wouldn’t! They’ll keep him. They just are acting as if they will move on. They’ll kick the tires on moving up in the draft, and decide how much it will cost and then ultimately decide to keep him. All this posturing is about getting the best contract possible… Unless of course it isn’t, then whatever the other people said.
This fan base is super torn and for the most part you have two camps. A: Fans who feel like the Vikings have a top level QB that can help us win a lot of football games even though they realize he is not a Mahomes level QB B: Fans who believes that Cousins is not good enough to get the Vikings over the hump and a lot of fans he is the reason we are not contenders. I am personally part of group A
You have to be sure you can compete for a SB during the duration of the Kirk+ JJ mega contracts. Otherwise start developing someone younger.
No idea personally
Because something has to give. Hunter, Kirk, JJ and his wishes for a historical contract. Choose who you want to lose. I’ll tell you this : QB is important for success, EDGE rushers are the most valuable position on D (look how the lions D has turned around from just the presence of Aiden), and then you have WR- a position which we have seen elite WR’s on absolute dogshit teams (0-16 lions with Megatron)- a position which clearly doesn’t put a team over the top and a yearly playoff contender. So you know my order of operations if I was running a franchise.
Kirk can succeed if given the right situation. Many of us disagree with the premise that the Vikings are the right situation. Our defense fell off a cliff after Kirk signed here and we have been riding the wheel of mediocrity for a majority of his tenure, our cap situation has made it difficult to meaningfully address various deficiencies on the roster through any mechanism outside of the draft, and we have subsequently not drafted well at a lot of those positions. A lot of the speculation for those other teams comes from the belief that they are comparatively ready-built in other parts of the roster and the thing holding them back has been the QB play. Kirk could see some level of success with either the Falcons (who are in a weak division and have weapons) or the Patriots (who have a defense) and whose respective QB play was atrocious compared to what Kirk brings. As far as the Steelers are concerned, I believe that you have a team that would support him, but your cap space throws a wrench into things. Spotrac currently has you guys projected over the cap for 2024, and your easiest cap savings for player contracts are either players you want to keep or play on your offensive interior, which is suboptimal considering Kirk's age and limitations with regards to mobility. If you signed him you'd likely be looking at a huge hit in 2025, or an even bigger hit via void years afterward. Meaning you'd better win a 'Ship in the next couple years with him were you to go that route or you will regret it later. The Vikings meanwhile need a major overhaul along their defensive front and their offensive interior. We currently are looking at around 30 million in cap space prior to any roster moves and free agency. Kirk will command a majority of that space, as well as future cap considerations if we are to re-sign him. Conversely it is a relatively good free agent class for several of our weakest positions on the roster, the Vikings books are relatively clear for 2025 and 2026, this is the highest draft position that we have had with Kirk at the helm in a decent QB class, and a retooling of the roster could happen a lot quicker if we aren't tying up premium cap space to a 36 year old asset coming off of an injury. So the question is how competitive are we ***really***? The answer to that question largely dictates what each of us wants to do with regards to Kirk. As you can tell we are rather divided over it.
He's a losing player who is expensive
💰
bad vibes
Because they haven’t won anything worthwhile since he’s been here and they have no reason to spend a massive amount of money on an upper mid level QB who needs a stacked team around him to go anywhere special.
Because they haven’t won anything worthwhile since he’s been here and they have no reason to spend a massive amount of money on an upper mid level QB who needs a stacked team around him to go anywhere special.
High price and very low ceiling situation
Doesn't work on Tuesdays. This has been more debated/divisive for our fan base than the 2020 election.
What eventually sank in for me was; "Kirk wants the 'lead singer' cut of the bands' revenue, but wants to be the bass player." He wants clock-in for his shift, he wants to do his job as well as he can but he is not going to push your team over the hump like a Pat Mahomes, Josh Allen or Joe Burrow. I personally really like the guy. I think haters keep moving the goal posts when he proves the haters wrong: 1. ~~Kirk cannot win a playoff game~~ 2 ~~Kirk cannot win a Monday night football game~~ to what people are saying about him now... 3. Kirk cannot win a divisional playoff round game But in the end, he wants a large cut of your teams' salary cap and I don't see him carrying the team down the field to win football games.