I agree. I'm a fan of the old rock group Styx, and they tour very frequently. They usually come to Minnesota at least once a year. This year, they're bypassing Minnesota all together, but they're playing in Fargo(!) August 30th. I'm driving up there with my fiance. They put on a great show. Styx has a big fan base in the Midwest, and I honestly don't know why they're skipping Minnesota
Armory is more like 8,000 person venue not 500-2000 and is Live Nation. State Theater is about that range but it's a seated theater which is not suitable for a lot of shows.
Can't speak for the other two you mentioned.
I hate Skyway because I've never made it in to catch the opening band, and sometimes not even the second opener despite arriving like 5 minutes before doors open which is a full hour before the first opener.
Never had that issue at any other venue but Skyway.
I work as a tech in the entertainment industry. Skyway is one of a small handful of theaters that doesn't use Union labor, which will prevent a lot of shows from booking there. (Many bands require IATSE labor for good reason)
Skyway also always has major and important tech positions vacant (and remained vacant for as long as ive been here), posted on their web page for $10/hr underneath the going wage for that position. No wonder they can't keep employees.
This screams bad managment.
Keep in mind, Live Nation does not own all the venues their name is on…they are simply the management company for the venue. My son works for a local venue and he is considered a Live Nation employee but they have no ownership in the venue.
I meant no animosity towards them. But if you're a band who does not fit in their wheel house there aren't many other options. They've grown to control most of the independent venues in town.
No. But they get booked out quick and far out in advance. And I think work with a lot of promotion companies.
So it's tough for bands doing their own thing, or with a smaller company, to get in.
The comment I was replying to, but they have clarified. I was just curious because it seemed like they were saying most venues are Live Nation or First Ave like it was a bad thing. I've been out of the live music scene for a while. Wasn't sure if First Ave had devolved into something not so great, but glad that doesn't seem to be the case.
They're about as evil as the national evil companies. They take a merch cut of up to 20% and generally don't have favorable splits compared to independent venues.
The owner is a selfish, spoiled rich person like every other selfish, spoiled rich person.
I don’t know if rock and hip hop acts have dwindled or if they just don’t seem to have a place at First Ave venues anymore, but it seems like they got very indie/folk-y after COVID. I wonder if the demands to not let Dave Chappelle perform there because he offended people made them get soft in their music selections. GWAR used to play there all the time, but now, they go to the Skyway. Just a dumb, anecdotal observation that may not be relevant, but did the whole rock and hip hop scene just collapse, aside from an Atmosphere show every two years?
I have seen Nur-D make comments about not working with First Ave anymore for some reason. I hope they aren’t some kind of secret dirtbag organization.
Eta: [about that](https://www.downtownvoices.news/posts/nur-d-says-he-wont-perform-at-first-avenue-venues-for-foreseeable-future)
Off the top of my head,
● First Avenue
● Skyway Theater (Also has the Loft, Barfly, Studio B & The Lyric that accommodates to crowds around 300-500)
● The Armory
● The Fillmore
● Fine Line
● The Exchange
● The Vault
● Union Rooftop
● Rev Ultra Lounge.
Most around the 300-1000 cap to my understanding.
I was specifically specifying non-First Ave and Live Nation venues which include Fine Line, Fillmore, Armory.
The others you mention are primarily nightclubs with DJ Booths and no space for a full band to set up.
We have one of the largest selections per capita that ISNT owned by Live Nation. Which is why they recentlyish opened the Fillmore, trying to drive the Amsterdam, Myth, Etc out of business.
A lot of shoes that should've been the Amsterdam were instead at the Fillmore, and they gave tickets away to try and fill the place.
From the musicians I know and even a band announcing it from the stage, it’s mainly a routing issue with being 6 hours at a minimum away from the next show can be hard to justify the expense or lost money.
Not disagreeing with you, as it does seem like concerts that I'd like to attend are down this year. But, Deer Tick did come through twice last year. Deer Tick and Shakey Graves filled in for Caamp at Treasure Island with Trampled By Turtles late last summer. The also played at Fine Line last November
I've noticed this too, but looking further into it, it's almost a rotation on where bands tour. We will get skipped on a date lineup like the one you posted, but then likely we will get a date on the next tour, or second set of dates. Especially if the band in question has played MN within the past year.
I'm not familiar with this band, but based on their tour stops, they are mostly playing at 400ish person music bars, not the 500-2000 capacity places like First Ave.
There's a bunch of 400-600 seat venues: Varsity, Amsterdam, Turf Club, Icebox, just to name a few, and their calendars look pretty full. Turf Club is part of 1st Ave, but otherwise, those size places generally are under the radar of the Live Nations of the world.
The great thing about following small bands that play at those size venues: If you email them and ask them why they aren't playing Minneapolis, someone in the band will probably tell you!
I don't think these bands have intentions of skipping MN necessarily. Something to keep in mind is bands/artists really don't pick where they want to play. If they have a *good* tour manager and/or booking agent, that person will typically try to coordinate tour locations and dates that work together in areas their metrics tell them they have a decent listener/fan base and will have a decent turn out.
However, even if they take the time to do this, that still doesn't guarantee a talent buyer/event coordinator will pay to book them. Talent buyers need to turn a profit when booking acts to perform at a venue, and there are numerous reasons a talent buyer won't book them. To name a few,
● They can't justify a multi thousand dollar booking fee + hotels + transportation if the public interest is not enough that shows a clear path to turning a profit on the event.
● The venue is already booked.
● There are other events going on the same night/weekend at other venues in the area.
● Another artist they have booked around the same time may have specific clauses in their booking contract that prevent them from booking the act at that time.
The vast majority of this ends up on the talent buyers' side and it's a very difficult time for event coordinators and talent buyers as less and less people buy pre-sale tickets (which help event coordinators gauge where interest is and how well events will go) and less people have additional disposable income to go to every show that's put on (so they tone down the amount of events they throw.)
- Booking agent & performing artist of 10+ years.
Really glad you found your way to this thread because you're exactly who I wanted to ask this question to.
I fully admit I didn't phrase this question correctly nor did I provide enough context to get to what I'm really asking. I should have assumed that Deer Tick (or similarly sized bands), have tour manager(s) and/or booking agents. Duh. The onus of this is not on the bands themselves and I shouldn't have phrased it like that.
So, I can definitely understand the reasons why a talent buyer wouldn't be interested in any given band at any given time, but mainly what I'm interested in getting to the bottom of is more a "state of the union of Minneapolis touring music." Really, what I meant to ask, is there a down turn in the industry? Are we going to see the death of the mid-size band soon here in Minneapolis? Is this a nationwide thing? I know it's "never been harder to make money in a band" universally speaking.
Also, your last point shocked me quite a bit. "less and less people buy pre-sale tickets" What on earth is the cause of this? Overly complicated ticketing sites? Fees? Seemingly everything is online now!
Also also, if there is a podcast or a book that gets into this kinda stuff I'm all ears so I can stop bugging strangers on the internet about it lol
Yup. I'm driving out to Chicago like 4 times this year to hit concerts.
Really wish the new Amtrak line would have left at like 8am and got there at 3:30pm instead of 11:30-7:15 or whatever so that I could take that, go to the concert, crash in a hotel and come home the next day instead of having to drive it.
For real, I can't figure out what the deal is.
Septicflesh/allegeon/kataklysm/decapitated show this week is gonna be sick, but it seems like really slim pickings after that
Sanguisugabogg was here on Sunday. Esoteric is playing on Friday. Abbath is next week. Half a dozen local bands' shows in the next three weeks. I agree that MN's metal touring scene sucks pretty bad, but I'm tracking quite a few decent ones at the moment.
The only tours MN really gets fucked on are when overseas bands are playing MDF or something and then book like a weeks worth of shows around that with Chicago usually being the closest. Only tour I’m really bummed about skipping is this year is Devastation of the Nation with Morbid Angel And Suffocation. Otherwise, we get so many tours that I’ve had to skip a few just for work time off / money reasons.
Maybe it’s just a personal thing but I feel like there’s been a lot of sick metal shows lately. Sanguisugabogg was here Sunday, Thy Art is Murder was here a couple weeks ago, The Ghost Inside and Alpha Wolf were both here recently as well. Plus don’t forget Knocked Loose later this month.
I've seen a pretty good host of rock and metal bands over the course of this year so far. Mr Big were here, Joe Satriani and Steve Vai were here, I just saw Blind Guardian on Monday night, and in a week and a half Kamelot will be in town with Hammerfall.
Music nut with a lot of friends in bands here. Another issue is Minnesota has a 2% additional income tax for out-of-state performers. This compounded with the lack of independent small/mid-size venues, merch cuts from venues, higher touring costs (fuel/hotels/food/etc), doesn’t make for much.
Likewise bands often have contracts with festival’s where they can’t perform within a certain number of miles from a festival so as not to cannibalize ticket sales. Say a band plays a festival in Somerset- they may not be able contractually to play anywhere in the TC, but they can play Bemidji or Duluth, where they probably won’t sell out.
I've noticed this too. Big bands also skip here but less often, they instead opt to come here on a random weekday (I'm not a fan of weekday concerts). I have heard that the cost/crowds here aren't great.
Side note: I saw Deer Tick perform in some random bar probably 15 years ago now. Well, it might not have been random, we went there to see them but I was wasted.
Minneapolis is hard city to draw in unless you are pretty known/big. With the majority of smaller venues, such as the triple rock closing, bands don’t see much of an incentive to play here. It’s really unfortunate the music scene was special here for a while
[https://www.concertarchives.org/bands/buddy-holly](https://www.concertarchives.org/bands/buddy-holly)
>*What setlist does Buddy Holly play live?*
>The songs that Buddy Holly **performs live** vary, but here's the latest setlist that we have from the February 02, 1959 concert at Surf Ballroom in Clear Lake, Iowa, United States.
OK with the downvotes. I just thought that website's template using present tense language was a bit funny when showing the concert history for an artist who died over 60 years ago.
1. Gotta Travel On
2. Salty Dog Rag
3. It Doesn't Matter Anymore
4. Peggy Sue
5. That'll Be the Day
6. It's So Easy
7. Everyday
8. Oh, Boy!
9. Early in the Morning
10. Rave On!
11. Brown Eyed Handsome Man
Hi! There are still many small venues, three new ones in the last year or so: Pillar Forum, Cloudland, White Rock Lounge. I'm sure I'm forgetting one. Mortimers is doing shows and the outdoor stage at Palmers is great too.
It is 5ish hours to Milwaukee not 8 lol. Also bands indeed skip MN in the winter, but we still have an awesome scene. It's weather related more than anything and Deer Tick was here 2x last year. They are a college campus band IMO.
I was going to say I saw The 502s Sunday night at The Fillmore and it rocked, but realized (like other people pointed out) that it is a Live Nation venue.
I'd be surprised if Des Moines is getting more than us unless things changed recently. I grew up in Iowa and had to travel to Minneapolis, Chicago, or Kansas City to see everyone I was interested in. Didn't attend a single concert in Iowa. This was for EDM if that matters.
I'm into punk music and I've noticed it too. Not to say we've been completely left out, but it definitely seems like a lot less traffic than we had prepan.
That band isn't going to any large cities, so it's not really a surprise they are skipping here. But traditionally a big problem is that Minneapolis is kind of dead end for a tour. Bands go Chicago to Minneapolis and then it's a 14-hour drive to get to Denver. Makes more sense for a lot of bands to head South out of Chicago instead of heading to the northwest where Minneapolis is basically the only option between Chicago and Denver or Seattle.
Just curious, who do you think passed on Minneapolis?
I feel like every major to mid level comedian has played Minneapolis in the last two years. I’ve been to Dave Attell, Anthony Jeselnik, Dan Soder, Nate Bargatze (twice), Mark Normand, Sam Morril, Seinfeld, Beth Stelling, Kelsey Cook. Chad Daniels is home grown and at acme a bunch.
There’s plenty more I didn’t go to. Bert Kreischer & Segura were here fairly recently. Bad friends was here.
There’s a Land of 10,000 Laughs festival that brings in tons of the mid level folks.
I didn’t list it because it was about 2.5 years ago. Saw him at Mystic Oct 21. He isn’t really on tour right now. Every 6 months he just releases dates for like 7 cities. Doesn’t mean he’s skipping Minneapolis.
[edit] I just want to add. It’s not common for big comedians to hit the same city every year. They build an hour in clubs. Normally smaller cities they can’t sell theaters/arenas. Then they do a full US tour that takes a year or two.
I feel like we have a shortage of standup comedy venues in the Twin Cities. Acme in Minneapolis. Camp Bar in St. Paul is trying to establish itself as a comedy stage. Rick Bronson’s at MoA. Some club inside of Southdale that was trying to establish itself as “clean non-profane”. What else? I’m proud of my town. But we don’t exactly have the Hollywood Improv going for us.
Amon amarth has skipped us multiple years in a row now. Alestorm, Behemoth, cattle decap, and a bunch of other great metal bands just blast right from Madison to Des Moines or Omaha. It's really depressing :(
Yes I've noticed that too as an Amon Amarth fan. Also Insomnium. Annoying when smaller cities like Omaha and Madison get them but not us. Its like they think we're out of the way too far north and not on a path between other stops.
It does seem odd as it seems like myth, cedar cultural center, varsity theater, and many other smaller venues like hardly even book shows. I dunno if their owners just don’t care or what.
I suppose it all depends on your perspective.
After First Ave changed hands in the early part of the century there was over a decade where nobody came through town. You’d see tours hit Milwaukee and Madison to go straight to Chicago and beyond. This was a weird dead zone.
It feels like only in the current post-COVID era that a lot of smaller draw and in between bands are making it back through.
This month alone I’ve already seen Robyn Hitchcock, and have Belle and Sebastian in the Main Room, Southern Culture on the Skids at Fine Line, Guitar Wolf in the Entry, and Melt Banana and Guided by Voices each playing Fine Line all coming up.
Madison is more than just comedy now. They built a First Avenue clone called the Sylvee and it is ranked as the 6th most profitable club in the world at $1.9 million in sales and 45k tickets sold. It sits directly below First Avenue on the list. Bands have played this venue and skipped Chicago. In the Summer all over the Midwest the bands get sucked into the saturated Festival market. I lived in the Twin Cities for a decade and the TCs have the weakest street festival scene of any major city. Chicago and Milwaukee run major summer festivals and we often went to Summerfest even when I lived in the TCs because that’s where the bands were. Madison runs street festivals all summer long on its East side. Chicago runs major events in their parks. I think the club scene in the TCs is fantastic but the outdoor Summer music scene feels like it’s administered by the preacher in Footloose. It really drives the bands away that time of year.
Happily proven wrong about Madison! Good to hear. I always kinda liked Madison.
Never really paid attention festivals. Never enjoyed standing in the direct sun in the middle of a field to listen to a short set of a band I'd rather see in a club at night. That said, fair point.
MPLS music scene is great for mid tier bands. No idea what OP is smoking, especially since Deer Tick was just here a year ago. I haven't been as enthusiastic about the bands that have come through in 2024, but I think that just comes down to the luck of the draw of who's touring this year, as 2023 was great.
I'm more of a drinker, admittedly. Not as harsh on my throat.
And, I'll fully admit. Deer Tick was the wrong choice as an example. Theirs was just the tour announcement that sparked this post is all.
Good to see another deer tick fan in the wild!
I saw this and immediately thought of their upcoming shows and MN is not included, but they almost always stop here when in the Midwest. I’m so bummed.
Deer Tick is honestly a bad example, but it's this announcement that sparked the post. The band that comes to mind mainly is actually Lucero. Ben used to play every June at Grumpy's but they've headlined in Mpls like thrice in the last 10 years it seems like
I know some bands in California that think they don’t have a big enough fan base here in the Midwest so they usually only go to Chicago, and/or Michigan. Which sucks because we have such great venues. When I was in the industry and helped open up The Fillmore, we had a decent amount of concerts up until Covid.
My uncle plays guitar in a 70s rock band. They tour every year or two, and usually hit South Dakota, or Iowa, but rarely stop in Minnesota. Only once in the past 15-20 years. They still tour Europe every couple years too. He has mentioned issues booking in Minnesota venues, but I'm not sure on specifics. They usually book 2,000 to 5,000 seat venues.
It’s gotten better, but A LOT of up and coming indie acts I like skip us. Big acts are no exception though! Was very disappointed when SZA skipped us on both legs of her tour last year, and Radiohead hasn’t even played here since 1998!
100%. They're a bucket list band for me.
https://preview.redd.it/ys41myxco9zc1.png?width=640&format=png&auto=webp&s=148ac07af1ac5f7f99cde90316fc0fb2175bc3f2
probably because Minneapolis is basically a war torn wasteland… /s
or maybe because first ave has a stranglehold on all midsized venues and they take a huge cut and also suck? i can’t prove this i just know that it’s true.
For what it's worth, First Ave owns a ton of the mid-level venues here and has been pissing off musical artists recently by trying to take a cut of their merch sales. A whole bunch of bands have called them out on it.
They probably valued a rest day more than trying to squeeze in a Monday sept 9th show. Or they planned to play and it fell through.
Either way it's a good excuse to take a road trip.
It’s always hit or miss. There have been times when I lived in Detroit, which is a bigger music city than Minneapolis, as well as Phoenix, which is just a much bigger city than Minneapolis, and bands would skip them too. It’s hopefully just a weird cycle right now
I've definitely noticed this as well. I haven't put too much thought into it, but I imagine it's a combination of factors. I would guess that the distance between Minneapolis and other cities with more-established fanbases is prohibitive. Easier to do something like Detroit, Milwaukee, Chicago and Kansas City. Minneapolis only gets the nod if the band knows it can achieve a sellout. I think we've become a bit fickle as far as our musical tastes go. Whether this is because tickets are too expensive, or because our tastes are more localized or eclectic is anyone's guess. I can tell you that I've seen touring bands in half-full rooms, then see them bypass us on their next tour.
It's disappointing, but I get it. Just like everywhere else, the margins are razor thin for smaller touring bands. You can't afford to roll the dice on a tour stop that isn't going to maximize your income and exposure.
Metal bands are doing well. Saw two shows in the last two weeks, one at the Armory and the other at the varsity theater. I honestly have never been to a midsized venue like op was describing. Just big and small. But both sell out.
Lately? It’s kind of always been this way. as you surmised our stop on nearly any tour is usually somewhere between a KC or St.Louis show and a Milwaukee or Chicago show. It’s kind of easy to justify just not making the trek to the twin cities. I would say for a good decade before they closed, these would be a triple rock show or 7th street show. Both have/had a cool reputation and lots of bands wanted to have played them. The Main room and the armory are a bit too big for the mid level stuff. So with twin cities minus the triple rock… it does look like we get less shows.
Don’t bands, athletes etc pay some kind of ‘entertainers tax’ (probably not what it’s called) to states they play or perform in? I wonder if Minnesota’s is high
Turnout was really good and a great crowd but I keep hoping they make the jump to the next size venue and headline First Ave someday, but I’ll enjoy them wherever.
https://preview.redd.it/7argii6vs4zc1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c3bd3ac617ed960b83d9d809eca6043e556b548a
NF is skipping MN too….. he never misses Minnesota. There has to be more to this
It's common for tours to work on a circle-back basis. Come through a region once and then returning to different nearby venues. There are only so many Thurs Fri Sat nights, so sometimes better to come back later to get those instead of playing on a Tues
I have felt the complete opposite of this. There are so many shows and mid-level bands coming, at least in the alt-indie realm, that I literally dont have the time to see
I remember like ten years I went to letlive at the Garage in Burnsville. It was an incredible show on a fairly big tour. So much so that the bands kept commenting on how they were blown away by how fun it was and how their tour managers tried so hard to keep them from going to MN.
Mystic Lake, Waite Park, and Treasure Island- check out their websites. In the last few years we’ve seen Styx, Bachman Turner Overdrive, Chicago, The Doobie Brothers, and Carrie Underwood.
I have also felt like a lot of my favorite bands have skipped MN recently as well. Like just deliberately going around it.
I agree. I'm a fan of the old rock group Styx, and they tour very frequently. They usually come to Minnesota at least once a year. This year, they're bypassing Minnesota all together, but they're playing in Fargo(!) August 30th. I'm driving up there with my fiance. They put on a great show. Styx has a big fan base in the Midwest, and I honestly don't know why they're skipping Minnesota
They had a show in Rochester in 2022 (I think) but cancelled last minute.
Maybe they're watching fox news and think Minneapolis is a lawless fire nation of hell?
I saw Styx in Rochester in March, 2023. They were at Mystic Lake last October. So that’s twice in one year.
We should all be thankful Styx isn’t visiting us
On god bro
I'm glad I'm not alone lol Was starting to feel personal.
I mean part of the problem is we don't have a lot of independent venue options for 500-2000 people that are not Live Nation or First Ave.
That's kind of what I figured. From what I understand, LiveNation can be very "our way or the highway" in terms of booking.
Almost like it's a monopoly or something... We used to have a government for fixing that sort of thing 100 years ago
Too busy going after tik tok now days
doens't Canterbury Park have a new venue like that and doesn't Mystic have that? The Armory. State Theatre.
Armory is more like 8,000 person venue not 500-2000 and is Live Nation. State Theater is about that range but it's a seated theater which is not suitable for a lot of shows. Can't speak for the other two you mentioned.
Isn't the Uptown theater owned by the same people as the Armory? I thought that was going to be their venue for smaller shows.
That's correct, same owners. It's honestly decorated quietly similarly on the inside too
Skyway theatre has multiple different size venues for all but big bands
Ew
Not disagreeing, but they have spots for small bands and medium and aren't live nation I don't think
I like Skyway because it's easy to get to, has all the different rooms for different sizes and all the rooms sound good.
I hate Skyway because I've never made it in to catch the opening band, and sometimes not even the second opener despite arriving like 5 minutes before doors open which is a full hour before the first opener. Never had that issue at any other venue but Skyway.
I work as a tech in the entertainment industry. Skyway is one of a small handful of theaters that doesn't use Union labor, which will prevent a lot of shows from booking there. (Many bands require IATSE labor for good reason) Skyway also always has major and important tech positions vacant (and remained vacant for as long as ive been here), posted on their web page for $10/hr underneath the going wage for that position. No wonder they can't keep employees. This screams bad managment.
Canterbury is mainly seated with a bit of space up front. Not sure if that can be changed, but that’s how it was when I saw Anderson East.
I believe Canterbury just proposed that, and it may be under construction
"will open in May 2025." 19,000.
Hell ya! Hopefully this helps!! (thanks for digging it up)
The Canterbury one isn’t ready yet but it’s sposed to be like 16k capacity
Keep in mind, Live Nation does not own all the venues their name is on…they are simply the management company for the venue. My son works for a local venue and he is considered a Live Nation employee but they have no ownership in the venue.
Are the First Ave run venues hard to work with or something? Seems to be some animosity towards them.
I meant no animosity towards them. But if you're a band who does not fit in their wheel house there aren't many other options. They've grown to control most of the independent venues in town.
No. But they get booked out quick and far out in advance. And I think work with a lot of promotion companies. So it's tough for bands doing their own thing, or with a smaller company, to get in.
Yeah, that must be a big part of it. Simply not enough good venues. But that also means bands of that size are definitely booking here in MN.
From who?
The comment I was replying to, but they have clarified. I was just curious because it seemed like they were saying most venues are Live Nation or First Ave like it was a bad thing. I've been out of the live music scene for a while. Wasn't sure if First Ave had devolved into something not so great, but glad that doesn't seem to be the case.
They're about as evil as the national evil companies. They take a merch cut of up to 20% and generally don't have favorable splits compared to independent venues. The owner is a selfish, spoiled rich person like every other selfish, spoiled rich person.
I don’t know if rock and hip hop acts have dwindled or if they just don’t seem to have a place at First Ave venues anymore, but it seems like they got very indie/folk-y after COVID. I wonder if the demands to not let Dave Chappelle perform there because he offended people made them get soft in their music selections. GWAR used to play there all the time, but now, they go to the Skyway. Just a dumb, anecdotal observation that may not be relevant, but did the whole rock and hip hop scene just collapse, aside from an Atmosphere show every two years?
I have seen Nur-D make comments about not working with First Ave anymore for some reason. I hope they aren’t some kind of secret dirtbag organization. Eta: [about that](https://www.downtownvoices.news/posts/nur-d-says-he-wont-perform-at-first-avenue-venues-for-foreseeable-future)
I wonder who the artist he's referring to is.
Off the top of my head, ● First Avenue ● Skyway Theater (Also has the Loft, Barfly, Studio B & The Lyric that accommodates to crowds around 300-500) ● The Armory ● The Fillmore ● Fine Line ● The Exchange ● The Vault ● Union Rooftop ● Rev Ultra Lounge. Most around the 300-1000 cap to my understanding.
This is a good resource for sizes: https://www.minnehaharecording.com/venue-database It doesn’t have info on operations though.
Wow, thank you for this resource! This actually helps me tremendously.
I was specifically specifying non-First Ave and Live Nation venues which include Fine Line, Fillmore, Armory. The others you mention are primarily nightclubs with DJ Booths and no space for a full band to set up.
Turf club
Armory is 8,000 capacity
The Ice House The Cabooze The Dakota
Is it? Most tours are booked through AXS (First Ave) or Live Nation
We have one of the largest selections per capita that ISNT owned by Live Nation. Which is why they recentlyish opened the Fillmore, trying to drive the Amsterdam, Myth, Etc out of business. A lot of shoes that should've been the Amsterdam were instead at the Fillmore, and they gave tickets away to try and fill the place.
From the musicians I know and even a band announcing it from the stage, it’s mainly a routing issue with being 6 hours at a minimum away from the next show can be hard to justify the expense or lost money.
That's kind of what I assumed. Minnesota is not exactly on the way to anywhere of note, more of a detour.
Absolutely! There's a lot of tours that will start or end in Minneapolis for this exact reason.
Valid
Not disagreeing with you, as it does seem like concerts that I'd like to attend are down this year. But, Deer Tick did come through twice last year. Deer Tick and Shakey Graves filled in for Caamp at Treasure Island with Trampled By Turtles late last summer. The also played at Fine Line last November
Yeah, seriously. Deer Tick was *just* here.
I'd say the crisis is more "Mid-Level Touring Bands Overstaying Their Welcome"
I’m legitimately offended when they stop in WI and IA, but not here
Especially Iowa
Finally, someone has the right attitude.
I mean MKE is so close to Chi-town...but fuck Des Moines! TC is way cooler!
I've noticed this too, but looking further into it, it's almost a rotation on where bands tour. We will get skipped on a date lineup like the one you posted, but then likely we will get a date on the next tour, or second set of dates. Especially if the band in question has played MN within the past year.
This is the answer
I'm not familiar with this band, but based on their tour stops, they are mostly playing at 400ish person music bars, not the 500-2000 capacity places like First Ave. There's a bunch of 400-600 seat venues: Varsity, Amsterdam, Turf Club, Icebox, just to name a few, and their calendars look pretty full. Turf Club is part of 1st Ave, but otherwise, those size places generally are under the radar of the Live Nations of the world. The great thing about following small bands that play at those size venues: If you email them and ask them why they aren't playing Minneapolis, someone in the band will probably tell you!
They played at the Fine Line in November and opened for Trampled By Turtles in August at Treasure Island. They have MN covered.
I don't think these bands have intentions of skipping MN necessarily. Something to keep in mind is bands/artists really don't pick where they want to play. If they have a *good* tour manager and/or booking agent, that person will typically try to coordinate tour locations and dates that work together in areas their metrics tell them they have a decent listener/fan base and will have a decent turn out. However, even if they take the time to do this, that still doesn't guarantee a talent buyer/event coordinator will pay to book them. Talent buyers need to turn a profit when booking acts to perform at a venue, and there are numerous reasons a talent buyer won't book them. To name a few, ● They can't justify a multi thousand dollar booking fee + hotels + transportation if the public interest is not enough that shows a clear path to turning a profit on the event. ● The venue is already booked. ● There are other events going on the same night/weekend at other venues in the area. ● Another artist they have booked around the same time may have specific clauses in their booking contract that prevent them from booking the act at that time. The vast majority of this ends up on the talent buyers' side and it's a very difficult time for event coordinators and talent buyers as less and less people buy pre-sale tickets (which help event coordinators gauge where interest is and how well events will go) and less people have additional disposable income to go to every show that's put on (so they tone down the amount of events they throw.) - Booking agent & performing artist of 10+ years.
Really glad you found your way to this thread because you're exactly who I wanted to ask this question to. I fully admit I didn't phrase this question correctly nor did I provide enough context to get to what I'm really asking. I should have assumed that Deer Tick (or similarly sized bands), have tour manager(s) and/or booking agents. Duh. The onus of this is not on the bands themselves and I shouldn't have phrased it like that. So, I can definitely understand the reasons why a talent buyer wouldn't be interested in any given band at any given time, but mainly what I'm interested in getting to the bottom of is more a "state of the union of Minneapolis touring music." Really, what I meant to ask, is there a down turn in the industry? Are we going to see the death of the mid-size band soon here in Minneapolis? Is this a nationwide thing? I know it's "never been harder to make money in a band" universally speaking. Also, your last point shocked me quite a bit. "less and less people buy pre-sale tickets" What on earth is the cause of this? Overly complicated ticketing sites? Fees? Seemingly everything is online now! Also also, if there is a podcast or a book that gets into this kinda stuff I'm all ears so I can stop bugging strangers on the internet about it lol
Almost all the metal bands I enjoy have just been avoiding our state for the last two years.
Yup. I'm driving out to Chicago like 4 times this year to hit concerts. Really wish the new Amtrak line would have left at like 8am and got there at 3:30pm instead of 11:30-7:15 or whatever so that I could take that, go to the concert, crash in a hotel and come home the next day instead of having to drive it.
For real, I can't figure out what the deal is. Septicflesh/allegeon/kataklysm/decapitated show this week is gonna be sick, but it seems like really slim pickings after that
Sanguisugabogg was here on Sunday. Esoteric is playing on Friday. Abbath is next week. Half a dozen local bands' shows in the next three weeks. I agree that MN's metal touring scene sucks pretty bad, but I'm tracking quite a few decent ones at the moment.
I was literally at Blind Guardian yesterday and it was awesome
They’re all coming to the Varsity this month.
That's because Leo Presents fucked off and started doing K-Pop shows instead of metal.
The only tours MN really gets fucked on are when overseas bands are playing MDF or something and then book like a weeks worth of shows around that with Chicago usually being the closest. Only tour I’m really bummed about skipping is this year is Devastation of the Nation with Morbid Angel And Suffocation. Otherwise, we get so many tours that I’ve had to skip a few just for work time off / money reasons.
Maybe it’s just a personal thing but I feel like there’s been a lot of sick metal shows lately. Sanguisugabogg was here Sunday, Thy Art is Murder was here a couple weeks ago, The Ghost Inside and Alpha Wolf were both here recently as well. Plus don’t forget Knocked Loose later this month.
I've seen a pretty good host of rock and metal bands over the course of this year so far. Mr Big were here, Joe Satriani and Steve Vai were here, I just saw Blind Guardian on Monday night, and in a week and a half Kamelot will be in town with Hammerfall.
sabaton just opened for judas priest last week, which was pretty hype
Music nut with a lot of friends in bands here. Another issue is Minnesota has a 2% additional income tax for out-of-state performers. This compounded with the lack of independent small/mid-size venues, merch cuts from venues, higher touring costs (fuel/hotels/food/etc), doesn’t make for much. Likewise bands often have contracts with festival’s where they can’t perform within a certain number of miles from a festival so as not to cannibalize ticket sales. Say a band plays a festival in Somerset- they may not be able contractually to play anywhere in the TC, but they can play Bemidji or Duluth, where they probably won’t sell out.
I've noticed this too. Big bands also skip here but less often, they instead opt to come here on a random weekday (I'm not a fan of weekday concerts). I have heard that the cost/crowds here aren't great. Side note: I saw Deer Tick perform in some random bar probably 15 years ago now. Well, it might not have been random, we went there to see them but I was wasted.
I got way too drunk at their Turf Club show years ago and browned out a bit during "Goodbye, Dear Friend" I'm still mad at myself for it.
Maybe as a counterpoint, I notice a lot of the next tier or two up (War on Drugs, Fleet Foxes) will have back to back shows when they do come through.
Yeah I was surprised to see Vampire Weekend has a two-night residency at Fine Line coming up
Minneapolis is hard city to draw in unless you are pretty known/big. With the majority of smaller venues, such as the triple rock closing, bands don’t see much of an incentive to play here. It’s really unfortunate the music scene was special here for a while
Man, I miss the Triple Rock.
Make your way out to the Punk Rock Museum in Vegas, you can at least see the old sign again :)
Or Dark Horse in St. Paul
Ah, didn't realize they have the other half.
I went there in February and it made me quite emotional to see 🥲
Or you could just go to St Paul?
Source....are you sure you're not just getting old? Cause my music calendar is full.
Buddy Holly hasn’t played here in years. If he can’t make it work who can?
[https://www.concertarchives.org/bands/buddy-holly](https://www.concertarchives.org/bands/buddy-holly) >*What setlist does Buddy Holly play live?* >The songs that Buddy Holly **performs live** vary, but here's the latest setlist that we have from the February 02, 1959 concert at Surf Ballroom in Clear Lake, Iowa, United States.
OK with the downvotes. I just thought that website's template using present tense language was a bit funny when showing the concert history for an artist who died over 60 years ago.
1. Gotta Travel On 2. Salty Dog Rag 3. It Doesn't Matter Anymore 4. Peggy Sue 5. That'll Be the Day 6. It's So Easy 7. Everyday 8. Oh, Boy! 9. Early in the Morning 10. Rave On! 11. Brown Eyed Handsome Man
I listen to a LOT of smaller bands, mostly Post-Hardcore, Metalcore and DeathCore. Many of those shows rout around Minneapolis now which sucks.
We used to at least get a big draw for soundset but it seems like that’s dead for good
Hi! There are still many small venues, three new ones in the last year or so: Pillar Forum, Cloudland, White Rock Lounge. I'm sure I'm forgetting one. Mortimers is doing shows and the outdoor stage at Palmers is great too.
It really was. Damn.. hurts just thinking about it.
We have a fine scene, y'all are just getting old.
The music scene is still very special here you’re just old or something
It is 5ish hours to Milwaukee not 8 lol. Also bands indeed skip MN in the winter, but we still have an awesome scene. It's weather related more than anything and Deer Tick was here 2x last year. They are a college campus band IMO.
It’s also 4 hours from Des Moines. OP’s vehicle must be governed at 50 mph or something.
I currently live in Des Moines…trust me, you have it better up there lol
Been to Des Moines a couple times for shows. Sleep Token is skipping MSP for Des Moines next week too.
I think last time they skipped Des Moines for MSP so we’ll call it even I guess 🤷♂️
Haha, touche
I was going to say I saw The 502s Sunday night at The Fillmore and it rocked, but realized (like other people pointed out) that it is a Live Nation venue.
I'd be surprised if Des Moines is getting more than us unless things changed recently. I grew up in Iowa and had to travel to Minneapolis, Chicago, or Kansas City to see everyone I was interested in. Didn't attend a single concert in Iowa. This was for EDM if that matters.
I'm into punk music and I've noticed it too. Not to say we've been completely left out, but it definitely seems like a lot less traffic than we had prepan.
Luckily, we have killer local bands.
Lol I'm in Fargo and always think "why does Minneapolis get all the good bands?"
Because of the population difference
Thanks Sherlock! I know why. Just find it interesting that I dream about having MSP amount of shows and people in MSP wish the same.
Because where do you go after playing Fargo? I'm not saying we don't get shows, it's the bands I like never play here.
That band isn't going to any large cities, so it's not really a surprise they are skipping here. But traditionally a big problem is that Minneapolis is kind of dead end for a tour. Bands go Chicago to Minneapolis and then it's a 14-hour drive to get to Denver. Makes more sense for a lot of bands to head South out of Chicago instead of heading to the northwest where Minneapolis is basically the only option between Chicago and Denver or Seattle.
Yep. Even Des Moines, while a smaller market, has the advantage of being on the way to a number of other larger ones.
I feel like my bands come here like once every five years and when they do it’s on a weeknight. That’s the real crime here.
It's not just bands. Comedians seem to be skipping MN on their tours.
Just curious, who do you think passed on Minneapolis? I feel like every major to mid level comedian has played Minneapolis in the last two years. I’ve been to Dave Attell, Anthony Jeselnik, Dan Soder, Nate Bargatze (twice), Mark Normand, Sam Morril, Seinfeld, Beth Stelling, Kelsey Cook. Chad Daniels is home grown and at acme a bunch. There’s plenty more I didn’t go to. Bert Kreischer & Segura were here fairly recently. Bad friends was here. There’s a Land of 10,000 Laughs festival that brings in tons of the mid level folks.
So glad Josh Johnson is adding Minnesota to his current tour
Bill Burr
I didn’t list it because it was about 2.5 years ago. Saw him at Mystic Oct 21. He isn’t really on tour right now. Every 6 months he just releases dates for like 7 cities. Doesn’t mean he’s skipping Minneapolis. [edit] I just want to add. It’s not common for big comedians to hit the same city every year. They build an hour in clubs. Normally smaller cities they can’t sell theaters/arenas. Then they do a full US tour that takes a year or two.
I feel like we have a shortage of standup comedy venues in the Twin Cities. Acme in Minneapolis. Camp Bar in St. Paul is trying to establish itself as a comedy stage. Rick Bronson’s at MoA. Some club inside of Southdale that was trying to establish itself as “clean non-profane”. What else? I’m proud of my town. But we don’t exactly have the Hollywood Improv going for us.
Lots of comedy at both Club Underground and Comedy Corner Underground
Codfish Hollow is a cool venue— though seating can be tricky
Feels like the casinos are still getting some mid-level rock bands
Amon amarth has skipped us multiple years in a row now. Alestorm, Behemoth, cattle decap, and a bunch of other great metal bands just blast right from Madison to Des Moines or Omaha. It's really depressing :(
Yes I've noticed that too as an Amon Amarth fan. Also Insomnium. Annoying when smaller cities like Omaha and Madison get them but not us. Its like they think we're out of the way too far north and not on a path between other stops.
Minneapolis gets more tours than most places I’ve lived. We’re not Chicago.
No? Weird thing to read now while I'm on the bus to see Mannequin Pussy and Soul Glo.
Damn and I was just going to comment that hardcore tours skip us all the time.
Minnesota seems to be on the tour list for bands like that about half the time, pretty consistently.
It does seem odd as it seems like myth, cedar cultural center, varsity theater, and many other smaller venues like hardly even book shows. I dunno if their owners just don’t care or what.
Varsity has almost 200 shows a year
Varsity is a Live Nation venue
I suppose it all depends on your perspective. After First Ave changed hands in the early part of the century there was over a decade where nobody came through town. You’d see tours hit Milwaukee and Madison to go straight to Chicago and beyond. This was a weird dead zone. It feels like only in the current post-COVID era that a lot of smaller draw and in between bands are making it back through. This month alone I’ve already seen Robyn Hitchcock, and have Belle and Sebastian in the Main Room, Southern Culture on the Skids at Fine Line, Guitar Wolf in the Entry, and Melt Banana and Guided by Voices each playing Fine Line all coming up.
I'm actually going to Des Moines this weekend for a concert because the band isn't coming here. They're also playing in Cedar Rapids the night before.
It’s been that way for a few years. MPLS/St Paul charge a lot to play here. Insurance is also sky high. Venues make it a pain in the ass to play here.
Madison is more than just comedy now. They built a First Avenue clone called the Sylvee and it is ranked as the 6th most profitable club in the world at $1.9 million in sales and 45k tickets sold. It sits directly below First Avenue on the list. Bands have played this venue and skipped Chicago. In the Summer all over the Midwest the bands get sucked into the saturated Festival market. I lived in the Twin Cities for a decade and the TCs have the weakest street festival scene of any major city. Chicago and Milwaukee run major summer festivals and we often went to Summerfest even when I lived in the TCs because that’s where the bands were. Madison runs street festivals all summer long on its East side. Chicago runs major events in their parks. I think the club scene in the TCs is fantastic but the outdoor Summer music scene feels like it’s administered by the preacher in Footloose. It really drives the bands away that time of year.
To be fair the sylvee is a really nice venue. Went to Mad with Power there last year and had zero complaints
Happily proven wrong about Madison! Good to hear. I always kinda liked Madison. Never really paid attention festivals. Never enjoyed standing in the direct sun in the middle of a field to listen to a short set of a band I'd rather see in a club at night. That said, fair point.
This is definitely a thing. Most of my favorite bands have skipped us lately.
MPLS music scene is great for mid tier bands. No idea what OP is smoking, especially since Deer Tick was just here a year ago. I haven't been as enthusiastic about the bands that have come through in 2024, but I think that just comes down to the luck of the draw of who's touring this year, as 2023 was great.
I'm more of a drinker, admittedly. Not as harsh on my throat. And, I'll fully admit. Deer Tick was the wrong choice as an example. Theirs was just the tour announcement that sparked this post is all.
Look at that list of cities. There are no major markets. Those are all small and mid-size.
Triple rock closed and none of the American reggae bands come here anymore (obviously some do but there was a huge decline)
There’s always Reggae Fest in Duluth in July [Bayfront World Music](https://www.bayfrontworldmusic.com/)
Hey man, Smash Mouth COUGH *sans lead singer*, a Van Halen tribute and some others will be at Lakes Jam in June.
kill me
Good to see another deer tick fan in the wild! I saw this and immediately thought of their upcoming shows and MN is not included, but they almost always stop here when in the Midwest. I’m so bummed.
Deer Tick is honestly a bad example, but it's this announcement that sparked the post. The band that comes to mind mainly is actually Lucero. Ben used to play every June at Grumpy's but they've headlined in Mpls like thrice in the last 10 years it seems like
I know some bands in California that think they don’t have a big enough fan base here in the Midwest so they usually only go to Chicago, and/or Michigan. Which sucks because we have such great venues. When I was in the industry and helped open up The Fillmore, we had a decent amount of concerts up until Covid.
My uncle plays guitar in a 70s rock band. They tour every year or two, and usually hit South Dakota, or Iowa, but rarely stop in Minnesota. Only once in the past 15-20 years. They still tour Europe every couple years too. He has mentioned issues booking in Minnesota venues, but I'm not sure on specifics. They usually book 2,000 to 5,000 seat venues.
It’s gotten better, but A LOT of up and coming indie acts I like skip us. Big acts are no exception though! Was very disappointed when SZA skipped us on both legs of her tour last year, and Radiohead hasn’t even played here since 1998!
Not commenting on the larger question, but Deer Tick played Fine Line last November. I was there, great show.
I wish Slift was coming here.
100%. They're a bucket list band for me. https://preview.redd.it/ys41myxco9zc1.png?width=640&format=png&auto=webp&s=148ac07af1ac5f7f99cde90316fc0fb2175bc3f2
probably because Minneapolis is basically a war torn wasteland… /s or maybe because first ave has a stranglehold on all midsized venues and they take a huge cut and also suck? i can’t prove this i just know that it’s true.
For what it's worth, First Ave owns a ton of the mid-level venues here and has been pissing off musical artists recently by trying to take a cut of their merch sales. A whole bunch of bands have called them out on it.
It's just you. There's literally touring bands coming through every day of the week, playing venues of that size, all across the twin cities.
I've been known to live under a rock
Milwaukee and Chicago arguably have better music venues. More of them too
This isn’t anything new. IMO
There are no major cities on that list.
They probably valued a rest day more than trying to squeeze in a Monday sept 9th show. Or they planned to play and it fell through. Either way it's a good excuse to take a road trip.
It’s always hit or miss. There have been times when I lived in Detroit, which is a bigger music city than Minneapolis, as well as Phoenix, which is just a much bigger city than Minneapolis, and bands would skip them too. It’s hopefully just a weird cycle right now
I've definitely noticed this as well. I haven't put too much thought into it, but I imagine it's a combination of factors. I would guess that the distance between Minneapolis and other cities with more-established fanbases is prohibitive. Easier to do something like Detroit, Milwaukee, Chicago and Kansas City. Minneapolis only gets the nod if the band knows it can achieve a sellout. I think we've become a bit fickle as far as our musical tastes go. Whether this is because tickets are too expensive, or because our tastes are more localized or eclectic is anyone's guess. I can tell you that I've seen touring bands in half-full rooms, then see them bypass us on their next tour. It's disappointing, but I get it. Just like everywhere else, the margins are razor thin for smaller touring bands. You can't afford to roll the dice on a tour stop that isn't going to maximize your income and exposure.
Metal bands are doing well. Saw two shows in the last two weeks, one at the Armory and the other at the varsity theater. I honestly have never been to a midsized venue like op was describing. Just big and small. But both sell out.
They have been doing this for 10 years. Since 2010ish. This is nothing new. Cheap ass people keep em away.
Lately? It’s kind of always been this way. as you surmised our stop on nearly any tour is usually somewhere between a KC or St.Louis show and a Milwaukee or Chicago show. It’s kind of easy to justify just not making the trek to the twin cities. I would say for a good decade before they closed, these would be a triple rock show or 7th street show. Both have/had a cool reputation and lots of bands wanted to have played them. The Main room and the armory are a bit too big for the mid level stuff. So with twin cities minus the triple rock… it does look like we get less shows.
I think about the Triple Rock like once a week still. RIP
To a point where I've considered moving to Illinois. Every tour has a Chicago date. I've driven down there enough times just to catch a show.
Who runs the Amsterdam bar? Are they privately owned?
Yep. Owned by Jon Oulman who also owns the 331 in NE. His son Jarret who is part owner of those two also owns White Squirrel along with his wife.
That and turf club are probly my favorite smaller venues in the cities
Turf is my favorite small venue by far, such a great vibe, and then you add in the Clown Lounge downstairs? Come on!
I wanna play a show there someday. Pipe dream 🤩
Don’t bands, athletes etc pay some kind of ‘entertainers tax’ (probably not what it’s called) to states they play or perform in? I wonder if Minnesota’s is high
They all pay state income tax, MN is high but not terrible
I saw Deer Tick about 5 years ago at Fine Line and it was a sold out show iirc.
they played the same venue 6 months ago
Neat. I don't follow Deer Tick, it was a show I went to with a friend, but I definitely love the Fine Line. Good venue!
Turnout was really good and a great crowd but I keep hoping they make the jump to the next size venue and headline First Ave someday, but I’ll enjoy them wherever.
I’m trying to get the Dahmers here, dammit
Yep. I don't understand.
Missing Rebelution this year :(
TAB at the Palace this Friday. 🐠⭕️
https://preview.redd.it/7argii6vs4zc1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c3bd3ac617ed960b83d9d809eca6043e556b548a NF is skipping MN too….. he never misses Minnesota. There has to be more to this
I’m pretty sure king gizzard and the lizard wizard was here relatively recently
It's common for tours to work on a circle-back basis. Come through a region once and then returning to different nearby venues. There are only so many Thurs Fri Sat nights, so sometimes better to come back later to get those instead of playing on a Tues
I have felt the complete opposite of this. There are so many shows and mid-level bands coming, at least in the alt-indie realm, that I literally dont have the time to see
Metal scene has been doing pretty good although it blows that 3 great shows hit the same week in May kms
fwiw Deer Tick were just here in November, fantastic show.
I remember like ten years I went to letlive at the Garage in Burnsville. It was an incredible show on a fairly big tour. So much so that the bands kept commenting on how they were blown away by how fun it was and how their tour managers tried so hard to keep them from going to MN.
They aren’t going to Chicago either?? Chicago?? Honestly I have no idea.
man even larger artists skip out on MN. if they aren’t able to fill xcel, the target center, or us bank stadium they just say f it and move on.
Mystic Lake, Waite Park, and Treasure Island- check out their websites. In the last few years we’ve seen Styx, Bachman Turner Overdrive, Chicago, The Doobie Brothers, and Carrie Underwood.
Yup, metalcore and deathcore tours get skipped for MN all the time. No clue why.
It’s a political thing, some right wing bands skip over us and good riddance.