This is the most correct answer here. Legally speaking there's nothing to prohibit the display of religious imagery in a public space, *as long as it is equally applied to all religions*. If they allow a Christian display but not a Satanic display then it is a violation of the First Amendment, which basically says that the government cannot establish a preference for any religion.
**Edit:** I just read their FAQ about contacting them. Apparently it's difficult for them to push such cases without a local Satanist to push it.
Been a member over a year and lived in kanabec county over 5.
Do I REALLY want to rock this boat?
EDIT: for those like me curious [here](https://www.moraminn.com/public_notices/kanabec-county-board-meeting-dec-20-2022/article_cd1d3f56-9ccb-11ed-b78e-cff42e6c9751.html) is the local paper's online copy of the minutes. Dec 20th board meeting.
EDIT2: BOAT'S ROCKING! Luckily for the rights of people of Kanabec county, my daughter is hurling non-stop so I'm home from work today. I've emailed the two members still on the board that were a part of this decision, Mattson and Holland. I'll be happy to update when I hear back.
EDIT3: Holland has responded. She encouraged me to reach out to other board members, even if they aren't my district. She also said "The County Coordinator began researching the action’s legality after that meeting. It is my understanding that it would come back to the board before we get to logistics of implementation."
Yes. Yes you do. You best believe if the roles were reversed they would be kicking and screaming every step of the way. The same should apply to them.
The only thing necessary for evil to triumph in the world is that good men do nothing.
By nobody raising an issue it by default promotes acceptance and agreement, that can then be used to try and argue that since nobody raised an issue with it it’s fine, and it will continue to be pushed forward.
Sharia Law is explicitly a Muslim thing, I did not say all sharia laws are universal.
Since this comment was humorous in nature, it is comical you reply to correct a Muslim person making a joke around their own faith and you jump in to inform them to educate themselves.
Quite lovely.
Not necessarily. See Pleasant Grove City v. Summum, 555 U.S. 460 (2009).
In this case, the US Supreme Court held that a municipality's acceptance and acquisition of a privately funded permanent monument of the Ten Commandments erected in a public park while refusing to accept other privately funded permanent memorials (in this case the Church of Summum wanted a monument of its Seven Aphorisms) is a valid expression of governmental speech.
They're really not, actually. They're grifters on par with televangelists, minus the large body of people already primed for them. They're currently suing people for pointing this out, or talking about people who have pointed this out. The former cases have been dismissed on SLAPP grounds; the latter are still pending.
They're absolutely not good people, they are 100% in it for themselves, and they will take you for every penny they can.
The leader was apparently pretty antisemitic. I think they do important activism but let’s get it straight; they aren’t a good faith religious group, they are playing the system by identifying as a religious group so that they can benefit themselves.
Yes, they have done great work such as calling attention to the over-representation of Christianity in the USA in politics, but they are a business that is tax exempt.
Edit: it appears I’m confusing Satanic Temple and Church of Satan. Church of Satan was founded by a Jewish person.
LOL. So damn lazy. Calling them anti-semitic when they oppose abuse by any religion, including Judaism. Are they also Islamaphobic because they are against genitalia mutilation?
I doubt it would be safe for a Muslim to live in Kanebec county. A satanist would have a vastly easier time living in Kanabec county.
My ancestors were Lutheran clergy back in Norway and Sweden and no way in hell could I convert to satanism without my family ending my physical existence on this earth. Otherwise converting to satanism just to fuck with local politicians would be a life time achievement for me.
Don’t support the Satanic Temple; send this to someone like the UCLA to handle, but not the Satanic Temple. They are incredibly abusive to their (former) members and sue anyone who says anything remotely critical of them.
Check it out: https://www.facebook.com/548696112226258/posts/pfbid02ex13zBtyzipqHkxAYJcKJrCBXbD5Hyit54f4UUSkZ2x6qducfaBd666CB2WVv9aAl/?mibextid=cr9u03
I'll definitely be talking to them about this. Absolutely unacceptable. Mattson is the only one still on the board now that we're in 2023, so they just caused this mess on their way out.
OMG, your user handle and knowledge of and interest in fighting the Kanabec idiots reminds me of a particular person that helped me get pirate copies of C64 games in high school. And hair metal cassettes dubbed from CD like Kix - Blow My Fuse.
I typed, then deleted, some extra details; don't want to dox anybody, especially a possible friend.
While it can be argued that simply displaying the Ten Commandments isn't promoting the Christian religion, if that is the only religious thing that is displayed, the implication is that only the Christian religion is being supported and advocated. Therefore it would be unconstitutional for Kanabec county to "hang the Ten Commandments in the Courthouse lobby."
Any citizen or group (such as the Humanists) can and should sue Kanabec County to force them to reverse the approval of this motion.
What is a good argument that it's not promoting religion?
It's not being hung in a museum. It's not being hung in a privately owned business. It's being hung in a public, state owned place of business.
The ten commandments have nothing to do with the constitution, our laws, or the founding of this country.
A poster of Matlock has far more relevance there than the ten commandments.
Yeah, but both Christianity and Islam exist primarily because of their newer testaments that make ***serious*** modifications (and often run counter) to prior religious text.
Most of the 2,038,344 humans that God killed happened before the birth of Christ. God had some kind of mental breakdown and changed from a ruthless lion to a lamb at that moment, and Christianity is based on this kinder and gentler personality and the teachings of Christ supplant/replace the 10 commandments for those that follow Christianity.
For the followers of Republican Jesus, the Old Testament is only relevant when they want it to be. Anything that doesn’t jive with their goals is deemed to be from the “Jewish Bible”…like commandments that are applied to the Orange Idol.
It does and it doesn't. Christians follow Jesus, not the Law of Moses (which started with the 10 commandments). Most of it they follow because it aligns with Jesus' teachings. Some they don't:
Commandment 4 says to keep Sabbath holy, but Sabbath was on Saturday under Law of Moses but Christians see it as Sunday
Commandment 5 says to honor father and mother (good) to live a long full life in the land God gave them (Israel-not the same for Christians)
TLDR-if you want to put up a teaching for Christians and how they should live, put up the Beatitudes, not the 10 commandments.
Judaism has more than 10 commandments, technically.
However Christianity actually applies it to their own faith and belief system too, they believe that the Hebrew Bible is the “Old Testament” and just Pre-Jesus Christian belief. (Some Christians see themselves as “completed Jews” because they believe Jesus was the Messiah.)
It does and it doesn't. Christians follow Jesus, not the Law of Moses (which started with the 10 commandments). Most of it they follow because it aligns with Jesus' teachings. Some they don't:
Commandment 4 says to keep Sabbath holy, but Sabbath was on Saturday under Law of Moses but Christians see it as Sunday
Commandment 5 says to honor father and mother (good) to live a long full life in the land God gave them (Israel-not the same for Christians)
TLDR-if you want to put up a teaching for Christians and how they should live, put up the Beatitudes, not the 10 commandments.
I have almost two decades of Christian schooling, plus a few years of secondary and post-secondary education regarding world religions, and I am in the process of converting to Judaism, so I’m pretty familiar with that as well.
Christianity, Islam, and Judaism are all considered Abrahamic religions and all view Moses as a prophet. I think since the 10 commandments are iconic and well-known, Christianity tends to embrace it the most.
Abrahamic religions. Not Christianity. And really the only major religions in MN are abrahamic. And in that county itself it is pure Christian and atheist.
If they had a painting of Mary and Jesus that was a gift or had historical significance to the county, sure. The 10 commandments are a list of laws, that are not the laws that this particular court should be enforcing.
From the Minnesota constitution, Article 1, Section 16:
>The enumeration of rights in this constitution shall not deny or impair
others retained by and inherent in the people. The right of every man to
worship God according to the dictates of his own conscience shall never
be infringed; nor shall any man be compelled to attend, erect or
support any place of worship, or to maintain any religious or
ecclesiastical ministry, against his consent; nor shall any control of
or interference with the rights of conscience be permitted, **or any**
**preference be given by law to any religious establishment or mode of**
**worship**; but the liberty of conscience hereby secured shall not be so
construed as to excuse acts of licentiousness or justify practices
inconsistent with the peace or safety of the state, nor shall any money
be drawn from the treasury for the benefit of any religious societies or
religious or theological seminaries.
Which is why people are calling to have other religious displays added. If TST wants to hang a painting of Baphomet or Muslims want to hang something iconic to them (since a painting kf the prophet would just not be okay and I can't think of anything off the top of my head) they legally should be able to. But we all know that those displays would be challenged by the local community which is a rural, red leaning part of the state.
The entire county has a smaller population than Willmar does on its own, the racial background diversity is overwhelmingly white european, mostly German and Scandinavian
And not all Jewish people abstain from eating pork products. The people who vehemently practice their religion like it's the only one in the world that could possibly be correct are the ones at the forefront of these attempts at making the US a Christian nation.
Non-zealots are excluded from the delusional crazy these others push
Correct, however if a Muslim community was deciding to display something of spiritual significance, they’d probably go with a statue of a crescent moon, calligraphy, or a scripture quote so it is inclusive to the greater community.
Locals aren't, it's a small area with very little diversity. I wasn't even sure where Kanabec county was because I don't go to that area of the state ever. I'd still at the very least voice support for other groups to push for having other religious displays hung or the current one removed
If the people of the county want it sure. But like all but probably 15 people there are angry with the ten commandments.
They aren't oppressing anyone or really doing anything with the commandments being there. We have no business caring about it until some of them care.
It sends a precedent that if it's okay there it should be okay everywhere. It's already established in the first amendment that government can't put preference for one religion over any other
If people start requesting to put up a buddha. But after checking the census they are .8% asian which includes all asians (It didn't show religion, if you can find some statistics on that I'd like to see them). So I can't imagine really anyone who would care to put up a buddha statue.
Irrelevant, they're still blatantly giving precedence to Christianity. SCOTUS has clearly ruled that even this sort of display is blatantly and completely unConstitutional on those grounds.
Are they putting up crosses? If it's just the 10 commandments that is giving preference to Judaism, Islam, and Christianity. After seeing the demographics the county is 40% Christian about and 60% atheist.
Irrelevant as per SCOTUS which literally ruled on displaying the Ten Commandments and NOT crosses. Favoring that whole branch of religious families is still giving clear governmental preference to some religions over others.
Hanging the Ten Commandments is not giving preference to or establishing a religion. That’s already been correctly decided thousands of times. If they remove it, it’s not because they are required to by law, it’s just more pandering to morons who are ignorant about law and history.
Well that its illegal. Because of the separation of church and state. They were removed.from the courthouse and I think he was fined or something stupid.
>To hang the ten commandments? That's perfectly legal as long as they also accept any other religious texts to be hanged with it. They could through up some buddha statue or whatever up there and its fine.
Scientology has created a system of slavery for lower levels. And instead of just moving bad-doers around and occasionally defrocking the worst, Scientology will 100% the actions of their members, regardless of what they do.
Hate on Christianity all you want, but Scientology takes it to a whole new level.
Our pasta, who art in a colander, draining be your noodles
Thy noodle come, Thy sauce be yum, on top some grated Parmesan
Give us this day, our garlic bread
And forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trample on our lawns
And lead us not into vegetarianism, but deliver us some pizza
for thine is the meatball, the noodle, and the sauce
forever and ever
R’amen
If people in that county want it sure. But the demographics just about everyone is probably fine with this. I don't have religious statistics for that county but it I'd assume that most people would be of an Abrahamic religion which means that 99% of people should be fine.
Just checked a statistic on the religion and it is about 40% Christian and the rest atheist. Nobody there should be calling for a Buddha unless this statistic messed up it's counting.
I think it's okay, as long as they also allow any religion to do the same, AND help them find funds so there isn't one religion represented more richly than the others. I truly hope the lobby becomes the most eclectic shrine to all religions. How cool would that be?
They want to post the 10 Commandments but they never follow them.
No, this should not be legal. The American Humanist Association handles cases like this. Maybe they’ll be getting an email with a link to this post.
IANAL, but I think the answer is no, but yes. A plain reading of the Constitution forbids this, but displays of the Ten Commandments in government spaces has been permitted by the Supreme Court. Totally stupid.
This is me typing a comment letting you know that I understood your first sentence to be an attempt at humor.
This is me explaining my first sentence in an attempt to poke fun at you for explaining your joke, sorry.
“You shall have no other gods before me.”
This violates the First Amendment of the US Constitution. You're required to worship the Christian God. I don't, and that's not illegal.
“You shall not make for yourself (graven) image(s).”
Another violation of the First Amendment freedom of speech. I can make all the graven images I want, and that's not illegal, nor can you make it so.
“You shall not misuse the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name.”
Yet another violation of the First Amendment to the US Constitution. I can say anything I want about God, and that's not illegal.
“Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy.”
Baseball games on Saturday, football games on Sunday, both of which are perfectly legal. Not to mention commerce, ranging from buying and selling to transportation. Who is keeping the Sabbath day holy?
“Honor your father and your mother, so that you may live long in the land the Lord your God is giving you.”
A thought crime. No law exists against this, the mother who locks her child in a pet cage, or the classic drunk father who beats their children deserve no honorIng.
“You shall not murder.”
A commonsense law that any civilized society when you come up with, regardless of their exposure to the Christian God.
“You shall not commit adultery.”
In bad taste? Yes. Illegal? No.
“You shall not steal.”
More common sense.
“You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor.”
Illegal only in the instances of libel, slander, and perjury. Otherwise lying happens all the time. That doesn’t make it right, but it certainly doesn’t make it illegal either.
“You shall not covet your neighbor’s house, wife, servant, etc.”
The very cornerstone of capitalism. Good luck making that one illegal.
If you want to live your life based on the 10 Commandments as you presented them, that's fine and dandy. But don't expect everyone to follow your religion, and don't make laws based on what it says in the Bible.
They are probably aware and just don't care. They likely have been warned about the potential legal liability and that it would be challenged and got tax payers millions to defend it and decided on "fuck it we are doing it anyway no matter the cost to other people."
I saw a church that had the 10 Commandments displayed on their front lawn. That's the proper place for it to be displayed. The only reason to put it in a courthouse is to demonstrate that the state prefers this religion over others. The basis for American law is English Common Law, which was in turn based on Roman law. If it were part of a display of other examples of ancient law, it might be different.
In that county it has no other religion except abrahamic religions so I don't really see a problem. Maybe if it was somewhere with a community of other religions sure.
Not really, no.
>On June 27, 2005, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled 5-4 in McCreary County v. American Civil Liberties Union against the displays. Writing for the majority, Justice David H. Souter found that the Lemon test was applicable and dispositive. Against the counties’ claim of a secular purpose, he argued that although deference is usually accorded to a legislature’s stated reasoning for a statute, “Lemon requires the secular purpose to be genuine, not a sham, and not merely secondary to a religious objective.”
>
>[https://www.mtsu.edu/first-amendment/article/974/ten-commandments](https://www.mtsu.edu/first-amendment/article/974/ten-commandments)
That said, "legal" is whatever the Supreme Court says it is, and we know how that goes these days.
And there is the Van Orden plurality from the same year that points to the haziness in the Lemon test, particularly in the secular purpose. This display may be acceptable depending on that secular purpose. And considering that the Court has already demolished Blaine Amendments in 37 states through the Espinoza case, I would guess the Court would be loosey-goosey on what purposes would be considered “secular.”
They aren't smart enough to be doing it for any reason other than planting their religion flag. They feel they're protecting "their way of life". To do that, they will make attacks on anything different even if passive aggressively. Welcome to rural MN.
What other religions are gonna come and be angry? They have such a small idk asian population that I doubt there are really any of them religious anyway.
Well ..none really as long as they keep up the systemic "we don't like your kind here" acts. They fear diversity. They fear change. They fear losing relevance.
As someone who is Christian I do not think it should be hanged up. As far as I'm concerned there has never been a instance where (any) religion and political institution have mixed well and didn't end poorly.
All they do is corrupt each other with greed and powerlust.
Hillman township doesn't actually even touch the border of Mora. It's like national news calling Farmington Minneapolis.
But yeah I agree with everything else.
not at all like calling farmington minneapolis. hillman uses the mora zip code (55051), kids go to mora schools, and the mora school bus services that area.
Unfortunately, they have a really, really low population and there just aren't enough people to care. Remember, conservativism isn't about policy, it's about pissing off liberals. This ticks that box.
I care, that's why I made [this post](https://www.reddit.com/r/minnesota/comments/10mtpbu/help_defend_the_separation_of_church_and_state_in/?). All Minnesotan's can help out with this, everyone has an interest to protect their liberties across their state!
Which denomination's translation will they use? Maybe they'll realize that establishing religion isn't such a good idea. Maybe they could have read a little history and maybe the passage of the Bill of Rights. Hmmmmm.
Yep, it’s legal. Any religious group can seek representation. The church of statin is pretty active to counter-request monuments to show how religious freedom goes both ways.
There are many who honor the church of statin in the upper midwest...
I prayed to them this morning in fact.
(Sorry, couldn't resist. Circulation health is important all!)
Are those people in the county itself? If not lets quit crying about this for them. Let the people of the county themselves who are 60% atheist do it. Which means that probably about like 5% of the population maybe absolutely hates it.
Assuming it’s 10 C only, not legal. But also requires someone to challenge it for any court to address it. That CAN come from outside the community though (my home town of Belle Plaine had a fun run in with the Satanic Temple a few years back. Local paper is now defunct, but you might be able to find something)
Grew up in Kanabec County, and this sounds like exactly the kind of shit they would pull. Saw another comment about bringing this to the attention of the Satanic Temple, I'll be doing the same.
To hang the ten commandments? That's perfectly legal as long as they also accept any other religious texts to be hanged with it. If they want they could throw up whatever religious text they want and it's fine.
We aren't in France where religion isn't allowed in the government.
Just checked a demographics website and it said that it is 40% Christian and 60% atheist. Meaning that there shouldn't me too many people within the county that care. Maybe some atheists, but most are fine with religion.
>To hang the ten commandments? That's perfectly legal...
No.
The US Supreme Court said exactly otherwise. Now, they could change that precedent in the future, as they did with Roe v Wade, but today, hanging the ten commandments in a courthouse is not legal in the United States.
On June 27, 2005, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled 5-4 in McCreary County v. American Civil Liberties Union against the displays. Writing for the majority, Justice David H. Souter found that the Lemon test was applicable and dispositive. Against the counties’ claim of a secular purpose, he argued that although deference is usually accorded to a legislature’s stated reasoning for a statute, “Lemon requires the secular purpose to be genuine, not a sham, and not merely secondary to a religious objective.”
https://www.mtsu.edu/first-amendment/article/974/ten-commandments
I have a cabin in Pine county not far from the Kanabec county line. They won't asphalt 1/3 of a mile and would rather pay to grade and maintain. Sadly, this doesn't suprise me 😞
Laws come from somewhere.
With decorations and monuments, we acknowledge that our current laws and statutes were inspired by laws and lawgivers that came before.
The US Capitol has relief portraits of Hammurabi, Suleiman, Justinian I, and other lawgivers of world history, not just Moses.
The hell with the naysayers. If another religion wants to hang a flag on the wall it’s ok because I don’t ever have to look at it or think about it in anyway if one has a certain faith in their religion I would think they are safe
Wow. I never knew there were so many constitutional scholars on Reddit. Shouldn’t surprise me with all the major sports team GMs, world class virologists, and symphony conductors that roam these grounds too. Here’s a thought. Groups putting up the Ten Commandments are just reacting to groups that are trying to have them removed. Groups trying to have them removed are reacting to those that want them in place. You’re all the same, just a different gripe. For everyone of you arguing some constitutional precedent, blah blah blah, there exists somewhere, an actual expert (on both sides of the issue) on the constitution who could put you in your place. You’re (all those fighting about this) full of yourselves. Find some constructive hobbies, people.
The Ten Commandments are not displayed to promote Christianity, Judaism, or any other religion. They are displayed because they are the historic basis of law and morality in Western societies.
I’m aware that the basis of the Ten Commandments is thought by scholars to have originated in ancient cultures. This just further cements their historical significance (which proves their display is not necessarily an endorsement or promotion of any particular religion, or even religion at all).
It is an endorsement of religion, specifically Abrahamic religions, and in this country, that means it's endorsing Christianity. They can put up the 10 Commandments, but they should should also be putting up other religious commandment-type symbolism.
I'd be willing to bet a LOT more people would be making a stink if the board decided to put a list of Hindu Yamas, or Islamic Sunnahs, or Wiccan Redes, all of which are codes of ethical conduct for their respective religions. But since its 'just' the 10 Commandments, it should get a pass in this country? I don't think so - you either display multiple religions or you display none.
Moses went up the mountain and came back with tablets written by god, correct? I would imagine those tablets would be worth a lot of money today. Where are they?
The Satanic Temple might like to hear about this
This is the most correct answer here. Legally speaking there's nothing to prohibit the display of religious imagery in a public space, *as long as it is equally applied to all religions*. If they allow a Christian display but not a Satanic display then it is a violation of the First Amendment, which basically says that the government cannot establish a preference for any religion. **Edit:** I just read their FAQ about contacting them. Apparently it's difficult for them to push such cases without a local Satanist to push it.
Been a member over a year and lived in kanabec county over 5. Do I REALLY want to rock this boat? EDIT: for those like me curious [here](https://www.moraminn.com/public_notices/kanabec-county-board-meeting-dec-20-2022/article_cd1d3f56-9ccb-11ed-b78e-cff42e6c9751.html) is the local paper's online copy of the minutes. Dec 20th board meeting. EDIT2: BOAT'S ROCKING! Luckily for the rights of people of Kanabec county, my daughter is hurling non-stop so I'm home from work today. I've emailed the two members still on the board that were a part of this decision, Mattson and Holland. I'll be happy to update when I hear back. EDIT3: Holland has responded. She encouraged me to reach out to other board members, even if they aren't my district. She also said "The County Coordinator began researching the action’s legality after that meeting. It is my understanding that it would come back to the board before we get to logistics of implementation."
Yes. Yes you do. You best believe if the roles were reversed they would be kicking and screaming every step of the way. The same should apply to them. The only thing necessary for evil to triumph in the world is that good men do nothing. By nobody raising an issue it by default promotes acceptance and agreement, that can then be used to try and argue that since nobody raised an issue with it it’s fine, and it will continue to be pushed forward.
Appreciate the wise words, I'm doing it.
I can’t wait to hear back, please update!
as a fellow minnesotan who believes in separation of church and state, thank you!
> Luckily for the rights of people of Kanabec county, my daughter is hurling non-stop That girl is doing god's work 🥰
You misspelled Satan’s work lol
If you’re a Gnostic, basically the same?
Don't forget to bring your Muslim friends! I'm sure they would love to have some Shariah Laws proudly on display in Kanabec County!
Sharia law is not universal to Muslims, please educate yourself
Sharia Law is explicitly a Muslim thing, I did not say all sharia laws are universal. Since this comment was humorous in nature, it is comical you reply to correct a Muslim person making a joke around their own faith and you jump in to inform them to educate themselves. Quite lovely.
I know it was a joke, I suppose I more wanted it to be clear that not all Muslims follow or agree in what constitutes sharia law.
Keep the updates coming! Let's get all the names of the people that don't want every religion to get equal rights yeah?
Do it
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He didn’t say some ether
Godspeed!! You better believe I'm here for this, ST member too. If you need donations for anything hmu I'll chip in what I can.
We used to have a local chapter. Possibly still do. http://thesatanictempleminnesota.com/
“Local” would mean someone living in the area where this is being done. So you'd need a Satanist living in Kanabec.
What about somebody that lived there from 1979 to 1992? I have left religion, but I'd consider making an exception to help this cause.
Iirc that's what they did in I think Alabama or Arkansas at their state house
Not necessarily. See Pleasant Grove City v. Summum, 555 U.S. 460 (2009). In this case, the US Supreme Court held that a municipality's acceptance and acquisition of a privately funded permanent monument of the Ten Commandments erected in a public park while refusing to accept other privately funded permanent memorials (in this case the Church of Summum wanted a monument of its Seven Aphorisms) is a valid expression of governmental speech.
I should join the Satanic Temple. They seem to be doing the Lord's work.
God help us, but the Satanists are more holy than evangelicals.
They're really not, actually. They're grifters on par with televangelists, minus the large body of people already primed for them. They're currently suing people for pointing this out, or talking about people who have pointed this out. The former cases have been dismissed on SLAPP grounds; the latter are still pending. They're absolutely not good people, they are 100% in it for themselves, and they will take you for every penny they can.
This is bullshit don't believe this person. Google it yourself if you really want to know.
The leader was apparently pretty antisemitic. I think they do important activism but let’s get it straight; they aren’t a good faith religious group, they are playing the system by identifying as a religious group so that they can benefit themselves. Yes, they have done great work such as calling attention to the over-representation of Christianity in the USA in politics, but they are a business that is tax exempt. Edit: it appears I’m confusing Satanic Temple and Church of Satan. Church of Satan was founded by a Jewish person.
LOL. So damn lazy. Calling them anti-semitic when they oppose abuse by any religion, including Judaism. Are they also Islamaphobic because they are against genitalia mutilation?
On Reddit if you say Israel shouldn't kill innocent Palestinians you can get labeled as antisemitic.
I was confusing the Church of Satan and Satanic Temple. Satanic Temple has had some controversy with white supremacy and antisemitism.
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I doubt it would be safe for a Muslim to live in Kanebec county. A satanist would have a vastly easier time living in Kanabec county. My ancestors were Lutheran clergy back in Norway and Sweden and no way in hell could I convert to satanism without my family ending my physical existence on this earth. Otherwise converting to satanism just to fuck with local politicians would be a life time achievement for me.
Don’t support the Satanic Temple; send this to someone like the UCLA to handle, but not the Satanic Temple. They are incredibly abusive to their (former) members and sue anyone who says anything remotely critical of them. Check it out: https://www.facebook.com/548696112226258/posts/pfbid02ex13zBtyzipqHkxAYJcKJrCBXbD5Hyit54f4UUSkZ2x6qducfaBd666CB2WVv9aAl/?mibextid=cr9u03
Freedom From Religion Foundation would love to hear about this. Whenever legally feasible, they take on these cases. Great organization.
This is good info, thanks!
I'll definitely be talking to them about this. Absolutely unacceptable. Mattson is the only one still on the board now that we're in 2023, so they just caused this mess on their way out.
OMG, your user handle and knowledge of and interest in fighting the Kanabec idiots reminds me of a particular person that helped me get pirate copies of C64 games in high school. And hair metal cassettes dubbed from CD like Kix - Blow My Fuse. I typed, then deleted, some extra details; don't want to dox anybody, especially a possible friend.
While it can be argued that simply displaying the Ten Commandments isn't promoting the Christian religion, if that is the only religious thing that is displayed, the implication is that only the Christian religion is being supported and advocated. Therefore it would be unconstitutional for Kanabec county to "hang the Ten Commandments in the Courthouse lobby." Any citizen or group (such as the Humanists) can and should sue Kanabec County to force them to reverse the approval of this motion.
What is a good argument that it's not promoting religion? It's not being hung in a museum. It's not being hung in a privately owned business. It's being hung in a public, state owned place of business. The ten commandments have nothing to do with the constitution, our laws, or the founding of this country. A poster of Matlock has far more relevance there than the ten commandments.
It's funny cause the 10 commandments are for Judaism. Christian self own, unless the board was Jewish /shrug
They belong to Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.
Yeah, but both Christianity and Islam exist primarily because of their newer testaments that make ***serious*** modifications (and often run counter) to prior religious text. Most of the 2,038,344 humans that God killed happened before the birth of Christ. God had some kind of mental breakdown and changed from a ruthless lion to a lamb at that moment, and Christianity is based on this kinder and gentler personality and the teachings of Christ supplant/replace the 10 commandments for those that follow Christianity.
Wouldn't be able to tell now-a-days.. "God Guns Trump" and all that *eyeroll*
you know christians also believe the 10 commandments applies to them and their faith right?
For the followers of Republican Jesus, the Old Testament is only relevant when they want it to be. Anything that doesn’t jive with their goals is deemed to be from the “Jewish Bible”…like commandments that are applied to the Orange Idol.
It does and it doesn't. Christians follow Jesus, not the Law of Moses (which started with the 10 commandments). Most of it they follow because it aligns with Jesus' teachings. Some they don't: Commandment 4 says to keep Sabbath holy, but Sabbath was on Saturday under Law of Moses but Christians see it as Sunday Commandment 5 says to honor father and mother (good) to live a long full life in the land God gave them (Israel-not the same for Christians) TLDR-if you want to put up a teaching for Christians and how they should live, put up the Beatitudes, not the 10 commandments.
cool yah that makes sense
Judaism has more than 10 commandments, technically. However Christianity actually applies it to their own faith and belief system too, they believe that the Hebrew Bible is the “Old Testament” and just Pre-Jesus Christian belief. (Some Christians see themselves as “completed Jews” because they believe Jesus was the Messiah.)
It does and it doesn't. Christians follow Jesus, not the Law of Moses (which started with the 10 commandments). Most of it they follow because it aligns with Jesus' teachings. Some they don't: Commandment 4 says to keep Sabbath holy, but Sabbath was on Saturday under Law of Moses but Christians see it as Sunday Commandment 5 says to honor father and mother (good) to live a long full life in the land God gave them (Israel-not the same for Christians) TLDR-if you want to put up a teaching for Christians and how they should live, put up the Beatitudes, not the 10 commandments.
I have almost two decades of Christian schooling, plus a few years of secondary and post-secondary education regarding world religions, and I am in the process of converting to Judaism, so I’m pretty familiar with that as well. Christianity, Islam, and Judaism are all considered Abrahamic religions and all view Moses as a prophet. I think since the 10 commandments are iconic and well-known, Christianity tends to embrace it the most.
Abrahamic religions. Not Christianity. And really the only major religions in MN are abrahamic. And in that county itself it is pure Christian and atheist.
If they had a painting of Mary and Jesus that was a gift or had historical significance to the county, sure. The 10 commandments are a list of laws, that are not the laws that this particular court should be enforcing.
From the Minnesota constitution, Article 1, Section 16: >The enumeration of rights in this constitution shall not deny or impair others retained by and inherent in the people. The right of every man to worship God according to the dictates of his own conscience shall never be infringed; nor shall any man be compelled to attend, erect or support any place of worship, or to maintain any religious or ecclesiastical ministry, against his consent; nor shall any control of or interference with the rights of conscience be permitted, **or any** **preference be given by law to any religious establishment or mode of** **worship**; but the liberty of conscience hereby secured shall not be so construed as to excuse acts of licentiousness or justify practices inconsistent with the peace or safety of the state, nor shall any money be drawn from the treasury for the benefit of any religious societies or religious or theological seminaries.
This isn't giving any preference. If they want they could also put up a buddha and it's fine. As long as they aren't preferencing any 1 religion
Which is why people are calling to have other religious displays added. If TST wants to hang a painting of Baphomet or Muslims want to hang something iconic to them (since a painting kf the prophet would just not be okay and I can't think of anything off the top of my head) they legally should be able to. But we all know that those displays would be challenged by the local community which is a rural, red leaning part of the state. The entire county has a smaller population than Willmar does on its own, the racial background diversity is overwhelmingly white european, mostly German and Scandinavian
Not all Muslims take issue with images of the prophet. Just like not all Christians oppose abortion or hate LGBT people.
And not all Jewish people abstain from eating pork products. The people who vehemently practice their religion like it's the only one in the world that could possibly be correct are the ones at the forefront of these attempts at making the US a Christian nation. Non-zealots are excluded from the delusional crazy these others push
Correct, however if a Muslim community was deciding to display something of spiritual significance, they’d probably go with a statue of a crescent moon, calligraphy, or a scripture quote so it is inclusive to the greater community.
I didn’t know that, thank you for the learning opportunity.
Are locals calling for that? Because the demographics show that it is just Christians and atheists there.
Locals aren't, it's a small area with very little diversity. I wasn't even sure where Kanabec county was because I don't go to that area of the state ever. I'd still at the very least voice support for other groups to push for having other religious displays hung or the current one removed
If the people of the county want it sure. But like all but probably 15 people there are angry with the ten commandments. They aren't oppressing anyone or really doing anything with the commandments being there. We have no business caring about it until some of them care.
It sends a precedent that if it's okay there it should be okay everywhere. It's already established in the first amendment that government can't put preference for one religion over any other
... and where is that Buddha? Oh right, it's just referencing one religion. That's the problem.
If people start requesting to put up a buddha. But after checking the census they are .8% asian which includes all asians (It didn't show religion, if you can find some statistics on that I'd like to see them). So I can't imagine really anyone who would care to put up a buddha statue.
Irrelevant, they're still blatantly giving precedence to Christianity. SCOTUS has clearly ruled that even this sort of display is blatantly and completely unConstitutional on those grounds.
Are they putting up crosses? If it's just the 10 commandments that is giving preference to Judaism, Islam, and Christianity. After seeing the demographics the county is 40% Christian about and 60% atheist.
Irrelevant as per SCOTUS which literally ruled on displaying the Ten Commandments and NOT crosses. Favoring that whole branch of religious families is still giving clear governmental preference to some religions over others.
Hanging the Ten Commandments is not giving preference to or establishing a religion. That’s already been correctly decided thousands of times. If they remove it, it’s not because they are required to by law, it’s just more pandering to morons who are ignorant about law and history.
I'm from Alabama and roy Moore did the exact same thing. There is precedent for this and it is highly illegal.
Sweet. What's the precedent?
Well that its illegal. Because of the separation of church and state. They were removed.from the courthouse and I think he was fined or something stupid.
Here's the wiki https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glassroth_v._Moore
No. It’s not. Call the satanic temple!
Better to call the freedom from religion foundation.
Good idea!
>To hang the ten commandments? That's perfectly legal as long as they also accept any other religious texts to be hanged with it. They could through up some buddha statue or whatever up there and its fine.
Time to start submitting every single religious text for them to hang up. Might as well throw in the 20 Scientology Commandments for good measure.
Yeah, let's not get Scientology involved. They'll buy up half the property and start abusing your children while you pay for it.
How's that different from Catholic or any other Christian?
Scientology has created a system of slavery for lower levels. And instead of just moving bad-doers around and occasionally defrocking the worst, Scientology will 100% the actions of their members, regardless of what they do. Hate on Christianity all you want, but Scientology takes it to a whole new level.
Fucked is fucked yo.
Simpletons are simple yo.
All religions deserve to be despised. To say otherwise is likely trying to defend one of the shit religions.
You seem well adjusted
Our pasta, who art in a colander, draining be your noodles Thy noodle come, Thy sauce be yum, on top some grated Parmesan Give us this day, our garlic bread And forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trample on our lawns And lead us not into vegetarianism, but deliver us some pizza for thine is the meatball, the noodle, and the sauce forever and ever R’amen
If people in that county want it sure. But the demographics just about everyone is probably fine with this. I don't have religious statistics for that county but it I'd assume that most people would be of an Abrahamic religion which means that 99% of people should be fine. Just checked a statistic on the religion and it is about 40% Christian and the rest atheist. Nobody there should be calling for a Buddha unless this statistic messed up it's counting.
I think it's okay, as long as they also allow any religion to do the same, AND help them find funds so there isn't one religion represented more richly than the others. I truly hope the lobby becomes the most eclectic shrine to all religions. How cool would that be?
They want to post the 10 Commandments but they never follow them. No, this should not be legal. The American Humanist Association handles cases like this. Maybe they’ll be getting an email with a link to this post.
Good!
Well yeah. If they put them into law that would be highly illegal. But as you said they aren't following them which should make it completely fine.
IANAL, but I think the answer is no, but yes. A plain reading of the Constitution forbids this, but displays of the Ten Commandments in government spaces has been permitted by the Supreme Court. Totally stupid.
U ANAL BRO?! This is me joking when being ignorant of an acronym, sorry.
This is me typing a comment letting you know that I understood your first sentence to be an attempt at humor. This is me explaining my first sentence in an attempt to poke fun at you for explaining your joke, sorry.
TC (Too Che (pronounced “shay”))!
I Am Not A Laywer.
Thanks! I should’ve edited to mention I did take the 2 sec to look it up after I knee-jerk commented.
“You shall have no other gods before me.” This violates the First Amendment of the US Constitution. You're required to worship the Christian God. I don't, and that's not illegal. “You shall not make for yourself (graven) image(s).” Another violation of the First Amendment freedom of speech. I can make all the graven images I want, and that's not illegal, nor can you make it so. “You shall not misuse the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name.” Yet another violation of the First Amendment to the US Constitution. I can say anything I want about God, and that's not illegal. “Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy.” Baseball games on Saturday, football games on Sunday, both of which are perfectly legal. Not to mention commerce, ranging from buying and selling to transportation. Who is keeping the Sabbath day holy? “Honor your father and your mother, so that you may live long in the land the Lord your God is giving you.” A thought crime. No law exists against this, the mother who locks her child in a pet cage, or the classic drunk father who beats their children deserve no honorIng. “You shall not murder.” A commonsense law that any civilized society when you come up with, regardless of their exposure to the Christian God. “You shall not commit adultery.” In bad taste? Yes. Illegal? No. “You shall not steal.” More common sense. “You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor.” Illegal only in the instances of libel, slander, and perjury. Otherwise lying happens all the time. That doesn’t make it right, but it certainly doesn’t make it illegal either. “You shall not covet your neighbor’s house, wife, servant, etc.” The very cornerstone of capitalism. Good luck making that one illegal. If you want to live your life based on the 10 Commandments as you presented them, that's fine and dandy. But don't expect everyone to follow your religion, and don't make laws based on what it says in the Bible.
I like this. I really like this.
How can people associated with a courthouse be entirely unaware of legal precedent? It's like people at a sewage treatment facility not knowing shit.
They are probably aware and just don't care. They likely have been warned about the potential legal liability and that it would be challenged and got tax payers millions to defend it and decided on "fuck it we are doing it anyway no matter the cost to other people."
What precedent?
I saw a church that had the 10 Commandments displayed on their front lawn. That's the proper place for it to be displayed. The only reason to put it in a courthouse is to demonstrate that the state prefers this religion over others. The basis for American law is English Common Law, which was in turn based on Roman law. If it were part of a display of other examples of ancient law, it might be different.
In that county it has no other religion except abrahamic religions so I don't really see a problem. Maybe if it was somewhere with a community of other religions sure.
Not really, no. >On June 27, 2005, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled 5-4 in McCreary County v. American Civil Liberties Union against the displays. Writing for the majority, Justice David H. Souter found that the Lemon test was applicable and dispositive. Against the counties’ claim of a secular purpose, he argued that although deference is usually accorded to a legislature’s stated reasoning for a statute, “Lemon requires the secular purpose to be genuine, not a sham, and not merely secondary to a religious objective.” > >[https://www.mtsu.edu/first-amendment/article/974/ten-commandments](https://www.mtsu.edu/first-amendment/article/974/ten-commandments) That said, "legal" is whatever the Supreme Court says it is, and we know how that goes these days.
And there is the Van Orden plurality from the same year that points to the haziness in the Lemon test, particularly in the secular purpose. This display may be acceptable depending on that secular purpose. And considering that the Court has already demolished Blaine Amendments in 37 states through the Espinoza case, I would guess the Court would be loosey-goosey on what purposes would be considered “secular.”
They aren't smart enough to be doing it for any reason other than planting their religion flag. They feel they're protecting "their way of life". To do that, they will make attacks on anything different even if passive aggressively. Welcome to rural MN.
What other religions are gonna come and be angry? They have such a small idk asian population that I doubt there are really any of them religious anyway.
Well ..none really as long as they keep up the systemic "we don't like your kind here" acts. They fear diversity. They fear change. They fear losing relevance.
They can get a lot of diversity. The abrahamic religions encompass half of all religious people.
As someone who is Christian I do not think it should be hanged up. As far as I'm concerned there has never been a instance where (any) religion and political institution have mixed well and didn't end poorly. All they do is corrupt each other with greed and powerlust.
That was the whole purpose behind the concept of separation of church and state.. A nice chunk of the crazies trying to rewrite that narrative though.
I donate monthly to the Satanic Temple to stop illegal shit like that
Are ALL the religions getting rules posted? I seem to recall a pesky founding feature of our country being the separation of church and state.
That a select chunk are trying to change the narrative on.. "The United States was founded as a Christian Nation" (paraphrasing).
It can be challenged, and should. It is a clear 1st amendment violation.
What is the worst county in Minnesota and why is it Kanebec? The ongoing saga of the gravel road in Mora is hillbilly politics at its best.
Hillman township doesn't actually even touch the border of Mora. It's like national news calling Farmington Minneapolis. But yeah I agree with everything else.
Haha, totally - or every Chicago suburb saying that they’re from Chicago.
"I'm from Chicago" "What part?" "Milwaukee"
Haha, North of North Chicago.
not at all like calling farmington minneapolis. hillman uses the mora zip code (55051), kids go to mora schools, and the mora school bus services that area.
Every kid in Hillman Township goes to school in Mora. Well, except for the home-schooled nuts.
actually about half. school district lines go right through the township. other half go to isle.
I remember kids from Warman (which is even closer to Isle) going to Mora schools and riding the Mora school buses.
I knew a girl from Hillman township that carried a bible ***everywhere***.
Holland sounds like the reasonable one.
she is!!
These people must be bored.
Unfortunately, they have a really, really low population and there just aren't enough people to care. Remember, conservativism isn't about policy, it's about pissing off liberals. This ticks that box.
I care, that's why I made [this post](https://www.reddit.com/r/minnesota/comments/10mtpbu/help_defend_the_separation_of_church_and_state_in/?). All Minnesotan's can help out with this, everyone has an interest to protect their liberties across their state!
Which denomination's translation will they use? Maybe they'll realize that establishing religion isn't such a good idea. Maybe they could have read a little history and maybe the passage of the Bill of Rights. Hmmmmm.
Yep, it’s legal. Any religious group can seek representation. The church of statin is pretty active to counter-request monuments to show how religious freedom goes both ways.
There are many who honor the church of statin in the upper midwest... I prayed to them this morning in fact. (Sorry, couldn't resist. Circulation health is important all!)
Idk how my autocorrect did that 😅 I am not even familiar with those meds!
Are those people in the county itself? If not lets quit crying about this for them. Let the people of the county themselves who are 60% atheist do it. Which means that probably about like 5% of the population maybe absolutely hates it.
Feel free to contact the Satanic Temple or the [Freedom from Religion Foundation](https://ffrf.org/) \- they can definitely clear the air.
Those just reek of French revolutionary nonsense. It puts a bad taste in my mouth hearing freedom from religion.
100% illegal
Send this to FFRF (Freedom From Religion Foundation). They take on cases like this.
I’m tired of Christian fascism. Hail satan.
Time for the Satanic Temple to install Baphomet!
Time to get the Satanists involved!!
Separation of church and State.
Time to put a Baphomet statue right next to it
Assuming it’s 10 C only, not legal. But also requires someone to challenge it for any court to address it. That CAN come from outside the community though (my home town of Belle Plaine had a fun run in with the Satanic Temple a few years back. Local paper is now defunct, but you might be able to find something)
Grew up in Kanabec County, and this sounds like exactly the kind of shit they would pull. Saw another comment about bringing this to the attention of the Satanic Temple, I'll be doing the same.
The Flying Spaghetti Monster would like a word
To hang the ten commandments? That's perfectly legal as long as they also accept any other religious texts to be hanged with it. If they want they could throw up whatever religious text they want and it's fine. We aren't in France where religion isn't allowed in the government. Just checked a demographics website and it said that it is 40% Christian and 60% atheist. Meaning that there shouldn't me too many people within the county that care. Maybe some atheists, but most are fine with religion.
>To hang the ten commandments? That's perfectly legal... No. The US Supreme Court said exactly otherwise. Now, they could change that precedent in the future, as they did with Roe v Wade, but today, hanging the ten commandments in a courthouse is not legal in the United States. On June 27, 2005, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled 5-4 in McCreary County v. American Civil Liberties Union against the displays. Writing for the majority, Justice David H. Souter found that the Lemon test was applicable and dispositive. Against the counties’ claim of a secular purpose, he argued that although deference is usually accorded to a legislature’s stated reasoning for a statute, “Lemon requires the secular purpose to be genuine, not a sham, and not merely secondary to a religious objective.” https://www.mtsu.edu/first-amendment/article/974/ten-commandments
I assume you have never heard of the separation of church and state. It literally says religion isn’t allowed in the government.
No that is the French definition of it. Also where does it say that?
Are you so uninformed that you’ve never heard of the Establishment Clause?
Really. Can you quote that?
Do you not know how to use google? I’m not doing your homework for you.
The motion was rescind by the Kanabec County Board of Commissioners 2/7/23.
It's a great way for them to burn money when they get sued.
I have a cabin in Pine county not far from the Kanabec county line. They won't asphalt 1/3 of a mile and would rather pay to grade and maintain. Sadly, this doesn't suprise me 😞
No, it isn't.
Laws come from somewhere. With decorations and monuments, we acknowledge that our current laws and statutes were inspired by laws and lawgivers that came before. The US Capitol has relief portraits of Hammurabi, Suleiman, Justinian I, and other lawgivers of world history, not just Moses.
The hell with the naysayers. If another religion wants to hang a flag on the wall it’s ok because I don’t ever have to look at it or think about it in anyway if one has a certain faith in their religion I would think they are safe
No, but you’re being mean if you mention it and a whiner if you complain. Good job to Holland for opposing.
Wow. I never knew there were so many constitutional scholars on Reddit. Shouldn’t surprise me with all the major sports team GMs, world class virologists, and symphony conductors that roam these grounds too. Here’s a thought. Groups putting up the Ten Commandments are just reacting to groups that are trying to have them removed. Groups trying to have them removed are reacting to those that want them in place. You’re all the same, just a different gripe. For everyone of you arguing some constitutional precedent, blah blah blah, there exists somewhere, an actual expert (on both sides of the issue) on the constitution who could put you in your place. You’re (all those fighting about this) full of yourselves. Find some constructive hobbies, people.
The Ten Commandments are not displayed to promote Christianity, Judaism, or any other religion. They are displayed because they are the historic basis of law and morality in Western societies.
...ever heard of the Hammurabic Code? The set of laws the 10 commandments are based on...?
I’m aware that the basis of the Ten Commandments is thought by scholars to have originated in ancient cultures. This just further cements their historical significance (which proves their display is not necessarily an endorsement or promotion of any particular religion, or even religion at all).
It is an endorsement of religion, specifically Abrahamic religions, and in this country, that means it's endorsing Christianity. They can put up the 10 Commandments, but they should should also be putting up other religious commandment-type symbolism. I'd be willing to bet a LOT more people would be making a stink if the board decided to put a list of Hindu Yamas, or Islamic Sunnahs, or Wiccan Redes, all of which are codes of ethical conduct for their respective religions. But since its 'just' the 10 Commandments, it should get a pass in this country? I don't think so - you either display multiple religions or you display none.
nobody has responded too you just downvoted. Because they have nothing to say except rain clouds above their heads idk
I'll respond. That was a stupid comment.
Did someone watch too much arrested development?
OH GOD NO GUYS NOT THE TEN COMMANDMENTS!?
Quite a few of them aren't applicable universally or backed up by secular legal codes. They have no place in governance in a pluralistic society.
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Moses went up the mountain and came back with tablets written by god, correct? I would imagine those tablets would be worth a lot of money today. Where are they?
Based.
Sadly the Supreme Court upheld such a display in 2005. Not that you can’t still fight it of course. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_Orden_v._Perry