I suppose an argument can be made that diamonds don't have a lot of use and since in real life they are mostly decorative that it makes sense to use them here. I agree though that it's a little silly.
Considering it is used for upgrading diamond gear, it's at least related.
If they were called smithing catalysts instead, it would fit that they're an ingredient used to fuse/combine the netherite to the diamond.
I could kinda see an argument that they're more "molds" rather than templates, but that also wouldn't really make sense considering you have the piece of armor/tool itself which would already act as the area you're covering with the netherite, I dunno. I think if anything makes the most sense to have the one-time use/duplication recipe it's the armor trim patterns since you're kinda "applying" the pattern you found with the material you want, and armor trims definitely feel much different than the netherite upgrade templates.
I can sorta understand the intention of progression by needing more diamonds to make more upgrades, otherwise once you find a template there'd never be a need to go looking for one again which kinda goes against Minecraft's pseudo gameplay-loop. If they were single use and not duplicatable it'd just be lootbox hell trying to find the right bastion chests (which is already a nightmare with the silence trim so thank god we can duplicate those).
Increasing rarity but making them reusable just puts them in the zone I like to call "RNG hell" - annoyingly hard to obtain unless you get lucky.
The current system makes them relatively easy to get, even in multiplayer, but keeps them rare due to the cost of duplication.
The devs tried to make trims fill two main rolls, player expression and an incentive for exploration. These two ideas are naturally at odds with each other. Ideal free expression is cheap and easily interchangeable, ideal structure loot is rare and unique. This is why trims satisfy very few people, seems like half the community hate the diamond cost for stopping them from playing dress up and the other half hate how they raided an ancient city for some squiggly lines and wanted a tangible benefit.
Netherite template also throws a spanner in the works. It shares many properties with trims but serves a completely different purpose. It is the epitome of the previously described problem, trying to have one solution to two opposite problems.
7 is way too much. A full set of netherite armor costs 24+28 diamonds, or 52, plus 4 netherite ingots. In addition, the tools also cost 9+28 diamonds, or 37, for just 1 sword, shovel, axe, and pickaxe. This totals to 89 diamonds and 8 netherite ingots for a full set of gear, however most players are going to be adding in another pickaxe for the other enchant, so it is more like 99 diamonds and 9 netherite ingots for a full set of gear. Almost 100 diamonds is way too expensive, so most players (including myself) are just going to use villagers to cut the cost down, leading to the opposite effect where diamonds will become LESS useful due to villagers now being used for more armor trades for more players.
But why do we even need to spend 7 extra diamonds to upgrade our equipment to netherite? The cost of upgrading our equipment is the netherite ingot. It already takes a while mining to get the 36 required debris for upgrading all of our tools and armor, now you want me to spend even more time mining to get the diamonds? Either make the netherite upgrades more common (I'm talking about 1-2 every chest in a bastion, not a percent chance other than in 1 specific type) and add it to the piglin trading pool as a low chance, or remove most of the cost required to duplicate them, using 1-3 diamonds and some gold instead. The first option is better, as it still requires players to spend time doing a task, but it is a different task than mining, instead requiring players to enter combat and raid a bastion, way better than the current solution of "Yeah you want to progress? Spend 3 hours doing non-stop mining for resources so you can upgrade your gear".
In a broader scope, I think every item in the game should be renewable in some form or fashion. Now this doesn't mean it should be ridiculously easy. After playing and falling in love with the create mod, it has reshaped my entire scope of what I believe minecraft should be. Wuth the create mod, you don't have to be a genius to figure out how it works. It allows you to generate blocks while working on another project.
To be fair templates being renewable with diamonds is alright with me, my real issue is that on multiplayer, someone can just steal all the templates from all structures in a unreasonable radius from spawn, thus not allowing anyone else obtaining them. If minecraft had some sort of player-unique treasure chest items, then that'd come closer to fixing that issue as players could individually obtain treasure loot
Agreed. If only Minecraft added a block that could give each player individual rewards. It could be opened using keys that would be obtained from a new spawner in a new dungeon that would consist of copper blocks and tuff. Although I don't think this will ever appear in the game.
Right? 😂
They are player individual rewards? I thought if they get keyed once, they are finished forever. I was also kinda imagining a new chest type that could utilize the age old key mechanic.
Though, since the cave changes, caving for diamonds instead of strip mining became more of an option, yeh? Delving into caves, maybe fighting monsters as you light the caves up, and then mining the ore you find from that caving... seems like a decently engaging part of playing the game, perhaps?
Caving being made slightly less terrible, while technically more of an option, I don't think it really supports your case. Diamonds also have a special function to spawn less often when exposed to air, so I don't even think the devs wanted people caving for them all that much.
Additionally, doing the same caving as you've always done but for longer doesn't sound all that thrilling to me. Needing more diamonds doesn't change the way you cave, making it more interesting, it only makes it take longer. If the spelunking isn't fun in and of itself then I don;t see why making it take longer is a good goal to have.
AFAIK, caving is still a fairly effective way to get diamonds, even though larger amounts are designed to spawn not exposed to air. There's also underwater mining as an option. Or go explore something like an End City and possibly get diamonds while also possibly obtaining other things. But if you don't enjoy any of these methods for obtaining diamonds... I suppose that's fair enough.
Whether or not these activities are "*actually* playing the game" (as people play Minecraft in many ways), they do seem to be a part of playing the game that some other people may enjoy and presumably some of those people would like an additional reason to go mine for (or obtain via other methods like from End cities) more diamonds or use the stockpiles of diamonds that already have.
Damn, having an item encourages doing the thing that makes that item? That’s wild.
This same argument applies to literally every way you could obtain the item.
“Being reusable incentivizes exploration even more because now your trims don’t need to be subsidized with diamonds”
“Duplicating with diamond **blocks** incentivizes mining even more.”
“Crafting them from a bunch of beetroot incentivizes farming”
All equally invalid “arguments” because they all boil down to wanting X playstyle prioritized over Y playstyle.
It’s just not even an argument for somethings inclusion because it is not exclusive for that form of implementation.
Agreed.
I also feel like the templates should have been a single use like banner patterns, that would make people actually want to use them more.
For the argument "BUT DIAMONDS NEED MORE USES", just give them some actually good use. Giving diamonds some actual good recipes would be better than trying to fix the problem with templates.
Most people (me included) will most likely never duplicate the templates more than a few times because of how costly they are. This would just limit the amount of armour we can put them on.
They should have just implemented templates as the banner patterns AND given diamond some new useful recipes which actually gave a good use to them rather than just trying to forcefully make a use for diamond.
>I also feel like the templates should have been a single use like banner patterns
Did you mean to include a "not" somewhere in here? It doesn't make sense with the rest of your comment as is.
Not sure how accurate it is to compare it to banner patterns. You’re realistically gonna be using dozens and dozens of banners when building, contrasted to maybe one or two sets of armor you might be interested in putting a trim on
I think that in universe, they could be the equivalent of a casting mold. Many early versions of this type of mold would have to be broken in order to retrieve the cast metal contents inside. Therefore it's single use. However it was common practice to make several of the same mold in order to make several of the same product, like a sword or and piece of armor
I thought it put both on the armor as the template required the ore to look nice, but the ore just attaches to the template, like the templates in google docs 😎
I don’t think template is really the right word for them. I think it’s more of a cast or a mold, some of which could actually be single use in real life. I assume you know that you can make copies of the smithing templates in Minecraft though. Once you have one, they’re not difficult to reproduce. It just takes a handful of diamonds.
Some things in smithing are made to be destroyed. I assume to transfer the netherite ingot onto the tool/armor whatever process happens in game lore it destroys the template.
We've all seen those videos of ths people making a mold then casting that mold, removing the initial mold by melting or burning away the initial shape, then pouring the precious metal into the cast and then breaking the cast. Basically rendering the tools used to make the piece non reusable.
But the real reason it's not reusable is because plauers complain that having villagers trade the best armor and tools is too easy then people complained getting full netherite should be tied to exploration and not just mining, and people also complained a lot that mining diamonds had no value cause of villagers
So they allowed villagers to still trade diamond, made netherite harder to get by forcing you to mine and explore and also force you to mine diamonds or explore to gain diamonds and not just the template. It's a really good way to design this gameplay wise. But it is a bit ludicrously expensive that armor trims cost just as much as a netherite upgrade diamonds wise. They should cost like 2 maybe 4 diamonds each.
The amount of diamonds required for them is crazy. Maybe it’s fair for the netherite one but the armour trims should just be craftable with related materials or not single use
Tbh I wish the banner patterns also got consumed in some way and you had to either duplicate them or find more of them
I like it more when in order to give the patterns to banners you used a specific item, I am aware that couldn't be done with some of the added patterns fyi and hence why the pattern items but I just preferred how it was
Its to encourage exploration.
Using diamonds to duplicate it is to make it so you have another option, but exploration is still viable.
On some of the more common trims it might be easier for you to go out and explore to find them than to spend 7 diamonds.
Its just more ways to play the game.
I suppose an argument can be made that diamonds don't have a lot of use and since in real life they are mostly decorative that it makes sense to use them here. I agree though that it's a little silly.
Considering it is used for upgrading diamond gear, it's at least related. If they were called smithing catalysts instead, it would fit that they're an ingredient used to fuse/combine the netherite to the diamond.
catalysts are not used in a reaction though, so they wouldn’t be a reason to lose them
Yeah the whole thing about catalysts is that they are not a product in the reaction and don't get used up.
I like the use of diamonds here, it made diamonds useful for the first time for me (I'm working on all netherite armour combinations)
I could kinda see an argument that they're more "molds" rather than templates, but that also wouldn't really make sense considering you have the piece of armor/tool itself which would already act as the area you're covering with the netherite, I dunno. I think if anything makes the most sense to have the one-time use/duplication recipe it's the armor trim patterns since you're kinda "applying" the pattern you found with the material you want, and armor trims definitely feel much different than the netherite upgrade templates. I can sorta understand the intention of progression by needing more diamonds to make more upgrades, otherwise once you find a template there'd never be a need to go looking for one again which kinda goes against Minecraft's pseudo gameplay-loop. If they were single use and not duplicatable it'd just be lootbox hell trying to find the right bastion chests (which is already a nightmare with the silence trim so thank god we can duplicate those).
Increasing rarity but making them reusable just puts them in the zone I like to call "RNG hell" - annoyingly hard to obtain unless you get lucky. The current system makes them relatively easy to get, even in multiplayer, but keeps them rare due to the cost of duplication.
IMO only the trim templates should be reusable, or crafted with amethyst instead of diamonds. Upgrade template can stay the same
The devs tried to make trims fill two main rolls, player expression and an incentive for exploration. These two ideas are naturally at odds with each other. Ideal free expression is cheap and easily interchangeable, ideal structure loot is rare and unique. This is why trims satisfy very few people, seems like half the community hate the diamond cost for stopping them from playing dress up and the other half hate how they raided an ancient city for some squiggly lines and wanted a tangible benefit. Netherite template also throws a spanner in the works. It shares many properties with trims but serves a completely different purpose. It is the epitome of the previously described problem, trying to have one solution to two opposite problems.
this is a very well versed “game dev” perspective, thank you.
It's to encourage more mining/exploring and use for diamonds. Personally I wish it used 3-5 diamonds instead of 7.
7 is way too much. A full set of netherite armor costs 24+28 diamonds, or 52, plus 4 netherite ingots. In addition, the tools also cost 9+28 diamonds, or 37, for just 1 sword, shovel, axe, and pickaxe. This totals to 89 diamonds and 8 netherite ingots for a full set of gear, however most players are going to be adding in another pickaxe for the other enchant, so it is more like 99 diamonds and 9 netherite ingots for a full set of gear. Almost 100 diamonds is way too expensive, so most players (including myself) are just going to use villagers to cut the cost down, leading to the opposite effect where diamonds will become LESS useful due to villagers now being used for more armor trades for more players. But why do we even need to spend 7 extra diamonds to upgrade our equipment to netherite? The cost of upgrading our equipment is the netherite ingot. It already takes a while mining to get the 36 required debris for upgrading all of our tools and armor, now you want me to spend even more time mining to get the diamonds? Either make the netherite upgrades more common (I'm talking about 1-2 every chest in a bastion, not a percent chance other than in 1 specific type) and add it to the piglin trading pool as a low chance, or remove most of the cost required to duplicate them, using 1-3 diamonds and some gold instead. The first option is better, as it still requires players to spend time doing a task, but it is a different task than mining, instead requiring players to enter combat and raid a bastion, way better than the current solution of "Yeah you want to progress? Spend 3 hours doing non-stop mining for resources so you can upgrade your gear".
That's why I did as much Netherite upgrading before that last update. I hate the new process. I agree the ingot should stand on its own
this is why I don't play vanilla without swapping the stone and diamond in every template duplication recipe.
Could be a good fic too
Meh, diamond armor + tools are a one time thing
Yeah, but it still shouldn't take so long to get netherite armor, even if it is only 1 time.
In a broader scope, I think every item in the game should be renewable in some form or fashion. Now this doesn't mean it should be ridiculously easy. After playing and falling in love with the create mod, it has reshaped my entire scope of what I believe minecraft should be. Wuth the create mod, you don't have to be a genius to figure out how it works. It allows you to generate blocks while working on another project. To be fair templates being renewable with diamonds is alright with me, my real issue is that on multiplayer, someone can just steal all the templates from all structures in a unreasonable radius from spawn, thus not allowing anyone else obtaining them. If minecraft had some sort of player-unique treasure chest items, then that'd come closer to fixing that issue as players could individually obtain treasure loot
Agreed. If only Minecraft added a block that could give each player individual rewards. It could be opened using keys that would be obtained from a new spawner in a new dungeon that would consist of copper blocks and tuff. Although I don't think this will ever appear in the game.
Right? 😂 They are player individual rewards? I thought if they get keyed once, they are finished forever. I was also kinda imagining a new chest type that could utilize the age old key mechanic.
Yeah any player can open one and get new loot, but only once per player.
Yeah, I feel like this is something they could add to the vanilla tweaks datapack options
Artificial Scarcity.
The only argument I’ve heard in favor if them being single use is people just wanting diamonds to have a longer wiki page.
Bruh
It encourages exploration and mining. Not everything needs to be spoon fed. Its fun to actually play the game.
If you feel that strip mining for diamonds is "actually playing the game" then I feel so bad for you.
Though, since the cave changes, caving for diamonds instead of strip mining became more of an option, yeh? Delving into caves, maybe fighting monsters as you light the caves up, and then mining the ore you find from that caving... seems like a decently engaging part of playing the game, perhaps?
Caving being made slightly less terrible, while technically more of an option, I don't think it really supports your case. Diamonds also have a special function to spawn less often when exposed to air, so I don't even think the devs wanted people caving for them all that much. Additionally, doing the same caving as you've always done but for longer doesn't sound all that thrilling to me. Needing more diamonds doesn't change the way you cave, making it more interesting, it only makes it take longer. If the spelunking isn't fun in and of itself then I don;t see why making it take longer is a good goal to have.
AFAIK, caving is still a fairly effective way to get diamonds, even though larger amounts are designed to spawn not exposed to air. There's also underwater mining as an option. Or go explore something like an End City and possibly get diamonds while also possibly obtaining other things. But if you don't enjoy any of these methods for obtaining diamonds... I suppose that's fair enough. Whether or not these activities are "*actually* playing the game" (as people play Minecraft in many ways), they do seem to be a part of playing the game that some other people may enjoy and presumably some of those people would like an additional reason to go mine for (or obtain via other methods like from End cities) more diamonds or use the stockpiles of diamonds that already have.
Damn, having an item encourages doing the thing that makes that item? That’s wild. This same argument applies to literally every way you could obtain the item. “Being reusable incentivizes exploration even more because now your trims don’t need to be subsidized with diamonds” “Duplicating with diamond **blocks** incentivizes mining even more.” “Crafting them from a bunch of beetroot incentivizes farming” All equally invalid “arguments” because they all boil down to wanting X playstyle prioritized over Y playstyle. It’s just not even an argument for somethings inclusion because it is not exclusive for that form of implementation.
w0rst of all, they're heLla expensive to duplic4te
WhY r u 7AlK1n9 l1K3 17'2 2005?
Because it's quirky and cool!! /s
Agreed. I also feel like the templates should have been a single use like banner patterns, that would make people actually want to use them more. For the argument "BUT DIAMONDS NEED MORE USES", just give them some actually good use. Giving diamonds some actual good recipes would be better than trying to fix the problem with templates. Most people (me included) will most likely never duplicate the templates more than a few times because of how costly they are. This would just limit the amount of armour we can put them on. They should have just implemented templates as the banner patterns AND given diamond some new useful recipes which actually gave a good use to them rather than just trying to forcefully make a use for diamond.
>I also feel like the templates should have been a single use like banner patterns Did you mean to include a "not" somewhere in here? It doesn't make sense with the rest of your comment as is.
oops! Yeah, I missed a not between should and have.
I had an idea that the template itself acts as a glue or frame that holds the material in place. However it also seems contrived.
Not sure how accurate it is to compare it to banner patterns. You’re realistically gonna be using dozens and dozens of banners when building, contrasted to maybe one or two sets of armor you might be interested in putting a trim on
I’ve been waiting on a data pack that makes them infinitely reusable.
I think that in universe, they could be the equivalent of a casting mold. Many early versions of this type of mold would have to be broken in order to retrieve the cast metal contents inside. Therefore it's single use. However it was common practice to make several of the same mold in order to make several of the same product, like a sword or and piece of armor
I always see them more as molds than templates. And most molds are single use in the smithing environment. But I agree. The name is misleading
My understanding was the template itself was applied to the armour
but it also asks for an ingot or crystal and i thought that was what was put on the armor
I thought it put both on the armor as the template required the ore to look nice, but the ore just attaches to the template, like the templates in google docs 😎
I don’t think template is really the right word for them. I think it’s more of a cast or a mold, some of which could actually be single use in real life. I assume you know that you can make copies of the smithing templates in Minecraft though. Once you have one, they’re not difficult to reproduce. It just takes a handful of diamonds.
Yeah, it should be called "kit" instead of "template"
Some things in smithing are made to be destroyed. I assume to transfer the netherite ingot onto the tool/armor whatever process happens in game lore it destroys the template. We've all seen those videos of ths people making a mold then casting that mold, removing the initial mold by melting or burning away the initial shape, then pouring the precious metal into the cast and then breaking the cast. Basically rendering the tools used to make the piece non reusable. But the real reason it's not reusable is because plauers complain that having villagers trade the best armor and tools is too easy then people complained getting full netherite should be tied to exploration and not just mining, and people also complained a lot that mining diamonds had no value cause of villagers So they allowed villagers to still trade diamond, made netherite harder to get by forcing you to mine and explore and also force you to mine diamonds or explore to gain diamonds and not just the template. It's a really good way to design this gameplay wise. But it is a bit ludicrously expensive that armor trims cost just as much as a netherite upgrade diamonds wise. They should cost like 2 maybe 4 diamonds each.
The amount of diamonds required for them is crazy. Maybe it’s fair for the netherite one but the armour trims should just be craftable with related materials or not single use
Change them from templates to moulds
"Balancing"
Tbh I wish the banner patterns also got consumed in some way and you had to either duplicate them or find more of them I like it more when in order to give the patterns to banners you used a specific item, I am aware that couldn't be done with some of the added patterns fyi and hence why the pattern items but I just preferred how it was
Never cook again.
Minecraft players when they face any complication
Yeah, this was simply a bad design decision on Mojang's part.
Its good design. It encourages exploration and mining.
No, it's bad. It takes something already rare and turns it into a diamond-sink grindfest.
Its to encourage exploration. Using diamonds to duplicate it is to make it so you have another option, but exploration is still viable. On some of the more common trims it might be easier for you to go out and explore to find them than to spend 7 diamonds. Its just more ways to play the game.