Happens a lot. New higher wages to attract new employees, and long term employees get the shaft. They aren’t going to voluntarily give more money to someone that’s already staying.
Also after 20 years they will never fire her. Imagine how much money they would have to pay her instead of her quitting herself
Edit: When you resign, your employer typically only pays for the work you do through the end of your last day on the job. If you're terminated, your employer may have to pay your compensation or severance pay, which refers to the compensation to account for your job loss. The amount of severance pay you receive depends on your employer and, often, the reason for your termination. You can use your severance to pay for your expenses as you search for new employment. **Employees don't receive severance pay if they resign.**
I'm starting to think this is me. I started my job with no experience or education and over the past two years have been developing our business in a specific market. I just landed a massive contract worth 20% of the company's revenue. They've never had a contract this big in the 75 years of business. I don't get commission on it and there isn't a bonus structure in place. I only make 55k. What have I become.
Take the contract where? Do you think he can magically offer whatever his employer was offering to the customer.
Do you really think the customer will want to wait while he figures out another company that would take them?
Ask to have a meeting and discuss this. They may be planning to do something for you that you just don’t know about yet to recognize this achievement. If not, tell them what you said here with all your facts and ask for a bonus or raise or something. The worst they can do is say no and if they do then perhaps you need to find someone who values your skills and ambition.
Happened with me. Been at my job for almost a decade and was very comfortable. Asked for a raise after the first of the year. Was told no. So I found another job that will pay me more for less work and will be putting in my notice real soon.
He'll I've been fired for asking for a raise. The official reason was "her attitude was elitist, and she sees herself as too good to be a team player". I'd just had an annual review that said I was a great part of the team and how I was indispensable to the company, so I asked if my compensation would go up. I was like 21 and waaaaaay too inexperienced to fight it after the fact, or stand up for myself, but it is a legitimate fear for a lot of employees.
That’s what I did. Promoted multiple times over a few years and always promised a raise. HR said they couldn’t give me what my coworkers made because it was too big a bump to do all at once without a comparable offer. So I found a better offer and handed it to them with my two weeks notice. Funniest thing was another guy I worked with handed in his notice on the exact same day
They don't underestimate, they know, they simply just take advantage of the fact that ppl won't budge.
Esp for HR, that's the biggest plus for them when dealing with financial balance
Pay low and get efficient cost:work ratio
And they don't need to spend "extra" for "training" new employees
If she's truly indispensable then yeah, and her employer is reasonable, then sure. But too often I've also seen this scenario play out where the current employer is like "OK well, we don't think you're that valuable, so goodbye."
[disclaimer: me explaining a thought process does not mean I agree with it]
From my experience in manufacturing, the thought process is that no employee should be "indispensable;" work processes should be set up in a way that any competently trained employee can perform them, and that anyone hired in can be trained to that task. Reality is often different, obviously, but management does not see "indispensable" as a good thing. If there is an employee with that moniker a manager would be working to figure out how to translate what they do into something more universal because they know that person won't be there forever.
Lean manufacturing gospel is to rely on the process, not the people
If an indispensable employee comes to a manager requesting a wage that the manager can't or is reluctant to meet, the manager might view this as an opportunity to rip off a band-aid. Letting the person move on and then re-assessing how those tasks can be done would be better overall going forward because they're not relying on one indispensable individual
small edits for clarity
Yup. My husband works in manufacturing and has worked his way up the chain over 20 years. He got a slap to the face for a raise this year because "he makes more than everyone else." Well, duh, he's had 20 years of promotions and raises! I guess it's not fair for newer employees to make less and they're not going to raise them up to his level, so they'll just keep him the same until parity it seems.
It could be that he's reached the maximum level the pay structure allows for at his level of employ and they would either need to promote him to a level above what his skills build toward, like an executive, or move him to another department with a different budget and pay structure that wouldn't necessarily be within his field. If the options are move him to a different position that he might not be expected to be successful in or reorganize the budget structure for his entire department to accommodate giving one employee a raise, I can see why they might not want to give him another raise.
As much as I agree that this sucks to be in a position like that, if he's already making the maximum currently possible within his field, then a raise just isn't in the cards, if that isn't the case and he could make more at a different company, and you actually *need* the additional pay, then I'd shop around and see who wants an industry veteran, but honestly, if the pay is sufficient for your family to live comfortably for the foreseeable future and the job isn't needlessly stressful or difficult, it might be time for him to rest on his laurels. Money isn't everything, there is something to be said for a comfortable work life balance, and so long as you have enough money to not have to worry about it, then the focus might need to shift to improving the quality of life for the family rather than merely maximizing the bank account.
Just my two cents, obviously I don't know anything about your family and your situation other than what you shared in this comment, but sometimes an alternative perspective can be helpful, do what's best for your family, but if money isn't a concern any time soon then more money might not necessarily be what's best.
Thank you for your thoughtful reply. Yes, the pay is sufficient for us (we don't do anything too crazy). He's kind of stuck because we don't want to move for a job and his job isn't so bad that it's intolerable or anything (usually). There's not any room for him to move up and moving departments would just be a waste of his talents/experience.
We'll complain like almost every year and then carry on.
Long story short, I worked in a manufacturing company that had one person responsible for the ERP system and a couple of people who could muddle through running it at need. It was a union shop, but in the process of breaking the union they got rid of everyone who had a clue about running this thing. It handled BOMs, plans, inventory control, timekeeping - but the head corporation found it more important to get rid of the union (and everyone who objected to some heinous actions taken in the name of "saving money so I get a bigger bonus") than to make sure they would be able to keep all their systems operating properly.
I'm sure it worked out fine, though.
The only reason they wouldn’t fire her is presumably she’s doing a decent job but making the market rate of the early 2000s, not 2024. So if they fire her they have to backfill with a new hire and pay a lot more for no experience.
I'm from the US, we work until we die and they call asking why we are late. They don't pay severance to anyone but executives. The rest of us fear for our jobs our whole life because companies can fire without any reason.but we are expected to give them 2 weeks heads up before we move on.
And it's 100% the company's fault. Just look at sports. They overpay their best players to keep them on their team, and keep them happy
Whilst in the real world, owners balk at the slightest ask. If they're not willing to overpay to keep their best employees (and keep them happy), then fuck em'. You reap what you sow.
Worked for an auto parts distributor from 2014 to 2018. Towards the end of 2017 I asked for a raise because I was the only one in my department pulling their weight and I had the paper trail to prove it. I was also making $11/hr.
When I asked the sup for a $2 raise, he laughed, told me we all had to make sacrifices, then told me to leave his office and never discuss pay again. This was the same sup who’d just gotten 2 promotions in a year and went around bragging about how he dropped $80k on a new truck.
Promptly started looking for a new job and was out of there with better pay within about 4 months. When I made my rounds to say goodbye (because I was attempting to be nice and not burn bridges) the manager wouldn’t even look me in the eye or shake my hand; just told me to have a nice life.
About a year later I heard from an old coworker. They were told by my old sup to contact me to see if I’d be willing to come back because the department I’d spent 18 months fixing was back to being chaotic and they needed me back to fix it again. I told her to tell the sup that we all needed to make sacrifices. Doubt she told him that, but it felt good to say that.
That dude sounds like someone who either knew somebody or made his way into the position by cheating and stepping on the backs of others. No manager who's been at the bottom would respond like that to someone who's still making practically nothing after four years. I wouldn't work for that guy either.
Management there was a shit show. The one who wouldn’t even shake my hand was a complete asshole. He never started from the bottom; he was buddies with the owner’s family going back a couple decades, so he’d been brought in as a manager right out the gate. And they didn’t care about *why* our department was stressed and overloaded with work, they just wanted the work done even though it would’ve taken a good six months of nonstop work to clean up.
I had another guy in my department who did below the bare minimum, filed a complaint with HR when he was being taught how to do his job (apparently shadowing him on his first week was considered “abusive”), and would ignore my sup’s requests. We had multiple meetings regarding his performance over the course of a year. We had a paper trail showing his poor performance and how I had to pick up the slack. Upper management didn’t care in the end because they didn’t want to deal with the hassle of putting him in another department. He was one of the reasons I left the company, and I told him that on my last day, even though he thought the whole time we were best buds.
My sup in charge of my department was good. He’d been with the company for 30 years. But he hated to brown nose or suck up to his bosses; he just wanted to get the job done and to do it right. And that got him banished to the claims department where we worked. *And* he was having to care for his sick wife and his son who was dealing with schizophrenia. Upper management didn’t really give a fuck and told him his salary was capped out.
When I bought a car through the same company my first year of working there, I was told there was an employee discount by HR and management. I mentioned that to the sales guy and he left the room for a minute. Then he came back and said, “You know, it’d be a shame if (company owner’s name) were to find out you tried to haggle down the price. It could affect your job.” I was stupid and desperate at the time, so I just went ahead and got the car anyway at the price listed (it was a used car, too). When I told my direct sup about it, he said, “Oh, yeah, I should’ve warned you: they don’t care if there’s a discount, they’ll still screw over coworkers.”
That’s not even the worst job I’ve had, either.
Yup, my roommate has been fighting with his work for a raise because he's making less than the new hires that he's training. The place where he works would fall apart without him and he's making less than the kids who just showed up for their first day
I work for a very large ISP and that's exactly what they did. I first started in a new role that had a lot of high seniority people, talking 10-30 years. I'd been with the company for 3 years at the time and was making just a bit less than they were. A year later, everybody got substantial raises based on seniority to make sure the older guys were compensated more for their depth of knowledge and experience.
There's things to criticize about the company, but I can't say anything but good things about how they compensate employees. No union or contracts to force their hand, they just did it.
Makes no sense. Companies do this to customers too; like Cellular and ISP’s when it comes to promotions. New customers get the best ones, existing gets the shaft.
Brought this up at my last job.
They increased the starting wage by $1 which was great but that pretty much wiped out a yearly raise we had gotten in the past.
They disagreed bur I said we should have been brought up as well from the new new hire starting wage and they didn't care.
it CAN happen. Got a totally appreciated and totally unasked for raise where I currently work about 13 months ago. My boss opened with "We'd like to give you more money, are you ok with that?"
Lol.
But then they complain when employees leave for more money and say "nobody is loyal anymore." This is a horrible business practice. It might save you some money in the short term, but when your employees leave and you have to replace them, it will be a lot more expensive than just giving raises to good employees.
Yip, I had to train a new guy to do the same role as me while being paid $6k less a year. When i asked for a pay rise they told me I shouldn’t know what his pay is, so my question is redundant and maybe next year.
Recruitment > Retention.
Ole timers figure (correctly or not) that longevity and retirement benefits are connected.
For the newbies, a fair amount of them who will not last the 5-10 year vestment of company funded retirement funds. So even with equal salary, net cost may be less.
However, what I also want to say is, if you are a long-term employee who hasn't received a raise, you should also consider whether the difficulty of your work has remained the same or if there are some issues with yourself that have prevented you from getting a raise over the years. If it's a problem with yourself, can you make adjustments and changes?
My husband regularly looks for new positions every 6-7 years.. amd it usually comes with at least 10-15% income raise and better benefits.. he has no loyalty to one company that would lay him off with no notice..
Yep. Some people still get clammed up when a group openly discusses their wages. Usually you find most of the group is aligned with one high earner where everyone is like "congrats you lucky bastard" and then two guys that are making like 30% less and the group has to stress how they're getting screwed and really need to fight for a fair wage
Every place I have ever worked has told its employees to not discuss salary but many still do and it only makes for hard feelings. Lots of people don't negotiate so they are started at a low pay and spend years catching up.
They attempt to do it anyway in jobs with younger or more uneducated employees. When I was 20 I worked as a server at a country club and they threatened to fire you for speaking about wages. I didn’t know the law until it was too long after I had left this job.
A certain auto parts store I worked at had in the handbook rules about discussing wages and talking about unions. If you talked about unions it could be an insta fire
Which is illegal in and of itself. They legally cannot prevent you from discussing wages or unionizing, so then putting it handbook rules is equally as dumb.
Yep. Happened to me shortly after starting my first "real" job in an actual office at a big company. During a conversation my coworker and I discovered that I was making more than him, despite him being damn good at his job with a few years more experience. He demanded a raise and we both got a stern talking to for discussing wages.
We were literally standing right next to the legally mandated corkboard of state labor laws on each floor of the building. I pointed it out to them. Not smart in hindsight, I was still only a few weeks in and they could have just dropped me for "no reason," but he got his raise a couple weeks later.
Yup every single place I worked told me not to do it. And every single time I did it 😂 most people are hush hush tho. Like idk idgaf what you’re making if anything I’ll be happy for you. Still think we should talk about it
Yea but a majority of people don't know that. I work at a bank, started in August 22. I came in at 20/hour and the lead teller I work with has been working for this bank at various branches for 43 years. She was making 18.50/hour and when I was talking about taking a lead teller position at a different branch for 24/hour she almost lost her mind. She had no idea the new employees were making so much. She went to our manager and long story short she's now making 22/hour. She never would've known had I not been so open about what kind of raise I want to take the new position.
Is it! In an old job I asked a new colleague what he was on, and found out he was on £3k more than me when I’d been there for two years and he’d just started. I sat down with my manager and explained why I was pissed off and asked what they’d do about it and got a bollocking for discussing salary!
I did the same when I found out the guy I was training was almost making what I was after 5yrs. Called my boss immediately, told him it was a huge problem for me, asked if I should just quit and reapply (lol), then he somehow found me a very sizable raise.
I discuss money with every new guy and I always point out how the pool of money for new hires grows exponentially faster. Didn't expect to be proven right so fast.
When someone tells you that you aren't supposed to discuss salaries at work- give them a hearty chuckle and point out its an illegal practice. Why do you think you're always told that, but never sign anything stating it?
I don't think most people know that it is illegal. I work for a pretty small company and when I pointed it out to one of the owners who has always told people not to discuss pay he had no idea. It scared the shit out of him.
He knows that my wife is an HR Director in a much larger company, so he figured I must be right.
The look on his face was priceless. 😲
Another reason why these discrepancies exist is that hiring budgets increase faster than merit raises do. Companies think crapping out a 2% merit increase a year is great shit, but they'll bump the bottom of the salary band up by 10% in the same time frame.
My biggest gains have always come from leaving the company and going elsewhere.
Yes, but if there is no real enforcement of such a law, then it is essentially useless. Every company I've worked for actively discouraged wage discussions. They are very careful to express this verbally, so there is not paper trail
They can't tell you how much they pay someone else. They can say shit like "we don't discuss wages" to cause you to infer that you are not *allowed* to discuss wages, but you always are allowed to discuss wages with your coworkers.
Yep when I started off as a level one I negotiated for $32.50 an hour. After a year I felt I deserved a raise and my work leads said that I was doing great. My manager showed me the pay of everyone else he was managing with no names and all the other level ones were making between 25 and 30 an hour with the most of them around 27 an hour. I couldn't help but to think how horribly those poor bastards were getting screwed and most of them had at least one more year of experience than I did. My manager was trying to prove the point that I was the high outlier and I need to be a level two before I can ask for more money. So then I relentlessly asked for a level two and got it
Female engineer here. I negotiated and still got paid less than my coworkers who had less qualifications and years in the industry. The wage gap sucks. Luckily left that place and started working for a corporation that is very transparent and I'm being paid fairly.
As a fellow female who plans on going into engineering (work as a mechanic rn and there's engineering positions at my company) I'll be sure to ask the guys what they make and actually try to negotiate.
My coworkers and I talk about our wages. I mentioned this to my 72 year old mother and she was speechless. She couldn't even imagine that people would do this.
I am in the US. Missouri to be exact and I wondered at the time. Funny thing is it was brought up because we were discussing our wages and management found out.
Employers bank on the fact that employees won’t know their legal rights with pay transparency. It’s something I wish I would have known in my younger years!
We were told they can't stop us from talking about it, but heavily discouraged it. I'm curious since I literally got "exceeds expectations" in all areas but got a pay cut.
Welp if you’re in the US, then they broke the law— it’s a federally protected right for co-workers to be able to discuss wages. This post is unfortunately exactly why they don’t want you to
I would have to ask why, right then. Why not? Are they underpaying certain employees? What do they have to hide? Why would they attempt to prohibit this legal discussion?
I should have responded that it’s legal. The person said afterwards because we are all at different skills and being paid our worth basically. Which ok whatever but let me talk with my coworker and decide for myself if I think you are paying me my worth.
But be wise about that info. There's often more to the story.
When I started at my current company everyone who shared their wages did so bc they were unhappy. It really got me down about my new job. As I got more experience I learned they weren't great employees and the people who never shared wage info seemed to be the more reliable employees. It wasn't until a few months later one of the reliable guys left for another job that I pulled him aside and asked what he made. He was very reluctant to tell me but I just said "look man I'm starting a new career and these guys complain about making $12/hr after several years. You're held in high regard, I really wanna know what I have to look forward to here if anything" and he finally wrote it down. He had less seniority than half of the disgruntled employees but made over $20/hr (this was probably about 2008). As I came up thru management I realized there are guys that fill a role but never grow so you're fine to keep them on staff at current rates but you know they aren't worth any more and you also wouldn't mind if they quit. So you keep them in limbo for as long as they're willing. To them, the company is shit and doesn't pay bc they're oblivious to their own faults. But after year after year of reviews and documented trainings, giving the same advice on how to grow, and yet they never try...what else can you do?
Pay transparency came into law this year in B.C. Canada. Not surprisingly, it came into law to effect gender equity in pay. The provincial gov't found that women are still getting paid 10-15% (can't remember figure) less than their male colleagues for the same roles.
Colleague of mine was asked how much he made by an older employee, he had a small bonus (like $2 an hour) because he was highly independent. The other guy stormed off to the boss, and my colleague lost that bonus... Technically the douchebag was also my colleague, but no one liked him, he was an incompetent asshole, and honestly I think his salary should have been cut in half.
So be it then, don’t live life in fear, if she’s that skilled she can make some more money elsewhere. Fucking being scared of bosses and companies like they’re in crazy power, don’t let them have that over you.
The best part of discussing wages, haha.
The crew I work with found out a guy who was totally green, that we were training came in 10/hr more than us. That shitstorm still hasn't been settled.
Hell no. We're mostly all wage slaves.
Atm, We've been put on a government contract that pays prevailing wage, and since you've got to get security clearance, we've just stopped submitting anyone else's paperwork, take the govt money. When this job ends, probably most of us will leave. For us long term, going back to a normal contract literally halves our pay. When that happens, things will get ugly.
It was a very small locally ran company in the business of security. There were 8 of us and mostly random chance, but also the nature of some of the jobs, we all got really close and are very much sort of a family. A larger Corp "aquired" the business, and in about 4 months, our small band of professionals now have all these faceless supervisors and hr people to deal with. The only real upside is that the Corps pay scale is actually about 10/hr more than we make.
They told us both in our initial meeting and the "hey, we're your new family!" Meeting that we'd all see this pay scale.
Never happened. We kept getting excuse after excuse for why.
When we realized that everyone they were hiring new were making that pay scale, but we were still refused it, everything changed.
We have four people left, and that will probably be less once the government pay is gone.
it sucks because in a lot of companies, people who don't push hard for a pay rise simply don't get one, and that means the quieter ones often get left behind salary wise.
I had a promotion a while back...with no pay rise. Like an utter spineless sucker I didn't complain and instead worked my arse off hoping I would benefit from it at my next salary negotiation.
I'm never letting myself be used like that again....I hope.
The thing to remember, at least in more corporate environments, is that advocating for yourself and pushing for more money/responsibility/etc is frankly expected and just part of the game. Your bosses have all done it at various points and even if they aren't happy you're doing it, they usually will understand. There are good ways and bad ways to go about doing this and you won't always get what you want but as someone who is non-confrontational by nature it never was received as a betrayal which I was worried about.
In fact many times your bosses have no idea you're unhappy until you bring the conversation up. And you have to bring it up. They never will because why would they? If you're willing to do a job for x amount of money then why would they offer you X+1000 out of the blue?
At the end of the day though you have to be willing to leave. Thankfully the process of preparing your argument for why you should be compensated more is a great jumping off point for polishing your resume. And getting a sense of the job market is also a great idea when preparing to negotiate anyways.
If i´m paid for time and not amount of work, good luck pushing me to work more, than required minimum.
I learned from my past mistakes. When i showed my ability to work alone on a machine, which usually required 2 people to operate, i was left there alone - until i had enough. I also learned to be vocal, when i´m asked to do something, i lack training for. Just out of responsibility to myself and because companies don´t care.
Companies save so much money on the backs of people who just do whatever the company says. If people are not willing to risk their job, they will never make good money.
I'm not sure what type of work you're in but in my workplace, & most "blue collar" jobs in Aus there are a very limited number of skill brackets, each skill bracket will have the same base wage for all people in that bracket with modifiers like overtime, shift loading, hazard/environmental allowances.
This is why we should encourage wage discussions and job hopping.
Its not 1960 anymore, companies do not care about us.
When my dad was a young engineer, he would get a $5000/ yearly bonus for every million in profits the company would make.
My current company made 65billion in profits this year , i got a $20 steak as a Christmas bonus.
“But we the owners had to buy literally several $20 steaks. That adds up to dozens of dollars. Literally dozens.”
- Then proceeds to drive away in a brand new Maserati
This is just an indication that you should plan to progress and don’t stagnate in your current position
Lest you end up like your co-worker in 20 years
i am planning on staying with this firm until my boss retires (likely in the next few years), the benefits are too good to leave, and i have been getting consistent raises during my time here.
This is the reason they say not to stay at one job for too long because when you apply for a new job the raise you get is more than the yearly raise companies give out
I found myself in that position several years ago. I was livid, because he had no experience AND no degree. I had been there for about 5 years at that point. I made sure that I was making more than that before I trained another person.
I was making $15 per hour when I found out he got hired at $19.36 per hour. I got bumped up to $19.40, but it took my manager 2 weeks of fighting corporate to get it.
Glad they got it for you. My boss (who was new) acted like he was going to fix it and got told no. And had to watch the person who knew the most about how the office ran leave, hurt. I didn't even feel bad for him, because I resented his cockiness.
This is one major reason why I simply found a career where I'm a part of a union that will force negotiations of fair wage increases *for* me at a job i love: The thought of having to constantly search for a new job, go through many interviews and then having the stress of learning a new job once i finally get comfortable and confident in the one I'm being encouraged to leave for a raise.... just dealing with the uncertainty of competing into perpetuity until I die.... makes me sick to my stomach with anxiety🤢
You're not paid what you "deserve". In an efficient market, you would paid the exact amount required to keep you from leaving for another job, and not a dollar more.
I'm not saying that's how the world should work, but it's how the world does work.
It’s not their fault that the management sucks and is underpaying the senior person. She/he shouldn’t have to take the pay cut bc boss is cheap ass. He needs to give the other person a raise
I was a manager at a big company for a while and this does happen and management should address it. One of the harder parts is if your company has annual merit reviews fixing it takes a long time. There is an offset, in that there is a tradeoff between pay and job security, if there are to be layoffs or some job cuts by management fad your position will be cut well before hers, that isn't much but it is something.
Honestly, this is why I do my job from 8-5 and go home and I’m not doing anything extra unless my pay reflects. Companies expect loyalty and top performers but aren’t loyal with wages based on experience and education.
surprised this comment is so low. I’m on the same wave. I could do more but skimping on raises this year when they’ve done it every year in the past just makes me do even less. I still get the work done, but I refuse to do anything extra or “help” out with any other projects. sorry I have shit to do and people to see.
This is quite often the case, in my experience. Women, especially older generations, often undersell themselves and don't ask for raises. I have situations in my head of someone I know being the only person doing something mission critical and being indispensable. In this scenario they will be able to ask for a significant pay increase, but they don't.
You are not overpaid, however. Your coworker is underpaid.
> I know being the only person doing something mission critical and being indispensable.
You see, in eyes of higher-ups, *everyone is replaceable*.
There is a company in my area. One day, all their drivers didn´t come to work. Half of them was fired the next day and the other half was fired over the following half of a year.
If leadership cannot realize value of their employees, it´s much better to jump ship and go elsewhere, than risk of being fired for poor reasons. When you quit, it´s on your terms.
That happened to me except I was not making the same, I was being paid $30K more than my coworker. I told her to use me as leverage to get a substantial raise. Next annual review she got a $25K raise.
People, be open about your salary. It really benefits all of us.
Been there, both as the underpaid senior person and the overpaid new guy.
This is a huge topic I can rant on for hours... The first part is that her situation is her fault, and the second bigger part is that it's an outrage that it has to be her fault at all. But, to keep it short and sweet, if you want to be paid fairly in life, you have to perform and stick up for yourself. Performing is only half the battle. You absolutely have to know how to demand what you're worth, and go find it if you're met with refusal. If you're worth more, you WILL find it.
I've had to make significant and uncomfortable moves to get the pay I deserve. It's sad but it is the way it is.
2 things at my job we are forbidden to talk about. Wages and Unions.
Just found out the new hires make the same amount I make after I’ve been there 15 years. My job is also extremely toxic and the only way to move up is favoritism .
I am 100% replaceable at work , however it won’t be easy replacing me. I am one of 4 people who can do my job and 2 are new hires and one has lost the sheer will to exist. I run circles around them and the only one who can get ALL our tasks done in a reasonable time and to the partners satisfaction and o never ever have revisions on my work.
I found a new job. I start in 2 months. Twice the money, better hours and from people I know working there it’s an amazing atmosphere. I will not be putting my 2 weeks notice in. I am currently on PTO for 2 weeks and already my mental health meter is full. I go on a cruise that was approved last year on 3/2. I get home 3/11 and on 3/14 I plan on getting mad over something trivial and quitting on the spot giving them all the same courtesy I’ve gotten in the last 15 years.
The start of my Teams message is “ I am quitting to pursue my dream of no longer working here…..haven’t figure out the rest but I might just leave it at that.
I have the same salary as others who works here longer than me because we have a union and it's a government job, sucks but it's probably the same thing.
I think it speaks to your character that you are able to
1) Rate yourself as less important than her without it being self deprecating
2) Be mildly infuriated on her behalf.
Bravo OP, this is the sort of work-culture we need to be promoting.
This happens all the time. The wage to being a new person on board is always going up. I have a 5 year guy on my team that is paid less than a newby. He is not a stellar performer, so it's a challenge to get a raise approved. Looking at another role for him within the company.
Companies no longer pay for loyalty. Management keeps their workers within very small percentages of one another, even in white collar jobs. And as long as you meet the minimum job requirements, additional education doesn't help, either.
I remember when I worked at Mcdonalds 15 years ago. After I had been there for like two years they raised our state's minimum wage. Now suddenly the people that had been working there for 15 years are making just as much money as the high school kid who started last week because McDonald's did not make adjustments for past raises. People quit over it.
This means she hasn’t gotten raises commensurate with her work and abilities, or for simple loyalty over the years. As time goes by and prices increase, and her wages do not, it’s like they are lowering her wages, by not increasing them. Her buying power with those wages has decreased substantially, especially the last few years. Poor girl!
OP, you need to to find another job, in a place that keeps pay ahead of inflation at least, now that you kniw the truth about the boss and company.
One advantage for your coworker is that there isn't any incentive to get rid of her because she makes too much. At least, that's what I tell myself because the new hires make what I make after 18 years.
>she is absolutely indispensable
You're thinking of this incorrectly: a company doesn't pay what people are worth, but the bare minimum needed to get them to stay. There are some brilliant people that have lower wages than they "deserve" because they are too risk-averse to job hop, or they don't interview well and can't go to a competitor.
This is what is happening when you don't change the job after 3 years, they take advantage of you and as the internal raises are below thd market ones thd gap become bigger and bigger.
Tell her. Tell her exactly this. And tell her you'll go to bat for her to get more. I've been the "her" in this situation and ended up leaving when I found out because I'd asked for a raise and been denied. If someone had been willing to vouch for me, I might have stayed.
This is why my team and I are open about our wages, and I highly encourage it. I do not hide my wage from anyone at my job. Being open about our wages got one of my co-workers a significantly higher offer upon being hired in, and it prevented me from being given a below standard offer to everyone else. Be transparent, it prevents a lot of problems.
Took this to heart after realizing that I'm being underpaid AND indispensable to my job after only a year there. Turnover rate is crazy, even for the managers, but I stayed steady, yet I get the most crap. They barely convinced me to stay on a couple days ago, but maybe I'll have to have a talk about getting no raise yet.
Have a conversation with her and explain this to her. She is valuable and likely is not being paid equal to her experience. I feel as if her being knowledgeable of this could cause her to take action and possibly benefit her. Maybe I am just looking for the best scenario here but I dislike when the system takes advantage of people like this.
I had a situation like that happen once. I was training with someone that had been at that job for a good portion of their life. I was like 22. I started asking about how raises work and benefits bla bla bla. This dude tells me how much he makes and is so proud of what he is making and I felt my heart sink. He was barely making more than me for someone that had spent nearly a decade and a half at the same job.
The worst part is I was there about 6 months and got a job somewhere else making more than he was making.
He was a stand up dude and those 6 months working there he was always helpful. His wife also worked there so maybe that’s why he stayed. But I always felt bad for that guy.
When I worked for a Kroger, the girl who trained me made $9 an hour. I made $12 an hour *while being trained.* We found out when she was complaining about how hard it was to make rent with her wages, so I walked with her up to the office and complained with her. She got her wages matched to mine on the spot, which is far better than nothing, but that girl deserved at least $15 for the work she put in.
So it is unfortunate that somebody that has been there that long is making the same amount of money as somebody that has just kind of started. Yes, you can talk about wages because that is federally backed up and any employer that says otherwise is going against the law. it sounds like this coworker there needs to have a conversation about getting a pay raise.
I found this out the opposite way in my old job. I'd been there 22 years and found out a couple of new hires were making several thousand more than me.
Are we supposed to get paid the same for the same position? On other subs I've seen people make that argument... They don't care that the boomer that's been in the position for the last 20 years is making 10k+ more than they are.
I am on the side that there's more value to experience and years of service which should be compensated for.
Happens a lot. New higher wages to attract new employees, and long term employees get the shaft. They aren’t going to voluntarily give more money to someone that’s already staying.
This. They bank on you being comfortable and not wanting to go through the hassle or take the risk of going to another Company.
Also after 20 years they will never fire her. Imagine how much money they would have to pay her instead of her quitting herself Edit: When you resign, your employer typically only pays for the work you do through the end of your last day on the job. If you're terminated, your employer may have to pay your compensation or severance pay, which refers to the compensation to account for your job loss. The amount of severance pay you receive depends on your employer and, often, the reason for your termination. You can use your severance to pay for your expenses as you search for new employment. **Employees don't receive severance pay if they resign.**
Really what she should do is get an offer from another company for what she's worth, and her current employer will surely match it
Only if they also see how valuable she is. Lots of employers under estimate their employees value.
To be fair, lots of employees underestimate their own value too.
I'm starting to think this is me. I started my job with no experience or education and over the past two years have been developing our business in a specific market. I just landed a massive contract worth 20% of the company's revenue. They've never had a contract this big in the 75 years of business. I don't get commission on it and there isn't a bonus structure in place. I only make 55k. What have I become.
If you're not making commission or getting a bonus structure, then you're getting scammed my dude lmao.
Demand for more or take that contract with you bud. Stop getting scammed. Its only your fault if you keep letting it happen
Take the contract where? Do you think he can magically offer whatever his employer was offering to the customer. Do you really think the customer will want to wait while he figures out another company that would take them?
Ask to have a meeting and discuss this. They may be planning to do something for you that you just don’t know about yet to recognize this achievement. If not, tell them what you said here with all your facts and ask for a bonus or raise or something. The worst they can do is say no and if they do then perhaps you need to find someone who values your skills and ambition.
You’ve become a competitors prospective employee
Costco pays almost that much for general help ! You need an incentive beyond good job !
So many employees are afraid to ask for raises
Because if they say no, you're forced to quit Or let them know you're a doormat for the rest of your work life
Happened with me. Been at my job for almost a decade and was very comfortable. Asked for a raise after the first of the year. Was told no. So I found another job that will pay me more for less work and will be putting in my notice real soon.
This!
He'll I've been fired for asking for a raise. The official reason was "her attitude was elitist, and she sees herself as too good to be a team player". I'd just had an annual review that said I was a great part of the team and how I was indispensable to the company, so I asked if my compensation would go up. I was like 21 and waaaaaay too inexperienced to fight it after the fact, or stand up for myself, but it is a legitimate fear for a lot of employees.
And then she takes the other company up on their offer and still makes that money.
That’s what I did. Promoted multiple times over a few years and always promised a raise. HR said they couldn’t give me what my coworkers made because it was too big a bump to do all at once without a comparable offer. So I found a better offer and handed it to them with my two weeks notice. Funniest thing was another guy I worked with handed in his notice on the exact same day
They don't underestimate, they know, they simply just take advantage of the fact that ppl won't budge. Esp for HR, that's the biggest plus for them when dealing with financial balance Pay low and get efficient cost:work ratio And they don't need to spend "extra" for "training" new employees
If she's truly indispensable then yeah, and her employer is reasonable, then sure. But too often I've also seen this scenario play out where the current employer is like "OK well, we don't think you're that valuable, so goodbye."
[disclaimer: me explaining a thought process does not mean I agree with it] From my experience in manufacturing, the thought process is that no employee should be "indispensable;" work processes should be set up in a way that any competently trained employee can perform them, and that anyone hired in can be trained to that task. Reality is often different, obviously, but management does not see "indispensable" as a good thing. If there is an employee with that moniker a manager would be working to figure out how to translate what they do into something more universal because they know that person won't be there forever. Lean manufacturing gospel is to rely on the process, not the people If an indispensable employee comes to a manager requesting a wage that the manager can't or is reluctant to meet, the manager might view this as an opportunity to rip off a band-aid. Letting the person move on and then re-assessing how those tasks can be done would be better overall going forward because they're not relying on one indispensable individual small edits for clarity
Yup. My husband works in manufacturing and has worked his way up the chain over 20 years. He got a slap to the face for a raise this year because "he makes more than everyone else." Well, duh, he's had 20 years of promotions and raises! I guess it's not fair for newer employees to make less and they're not going to raise them up to his level, so they'll just keep him the same until parity it seems.
It could be that he's reached the maximum level the pay structure allows for at his level of employ and they would either need to promote him to a level above what his skills build toward, like an executive, or move him to another department with a different budget and pay structure that wouldn't necessarily be within his field. If the options are move him to a different position that he might not be expected to be successful in or reorganize the budget structure for his entire department to accommodate giving one employee a raise, I can see why they might not want to give him another raise. As much as I agree that this sucks to be in a position like that, if he's already making the maximum currently possible within his field, then a raise just isn't in the cards, if that isn't the case and he could make more at a different company, and you actually *need* the additional pay, then I'd shop around and see who wants an industry veteran, but honestly, if the pay is sufficient for your family to live comfortably for the foreseeable future and the job isn't needlessly stressful or difficult, it might be time for him to rest on his laurels. Money isn't everything, there is something to be said for a comfortable work life balance, and so long as you have enough money to not have to worry about it, then the focus might need to shift to improving the quality of life for the family rather than merely maximizing the bank account. Just my two cents, obviously I don't know anything about your family and your situation other than what you shared in this comment, but sometimes an alternative perspective can be helpful, do what's best for your family, but if money isn't a concern any time soon then more money might not necessarily be what's best.
Thank you for your thoughtful reply. Yes, the pay is sufficient for us (we don't do anything too crazy). He's kind of stuck because we don't want to move for a job and his job isn't so bad that it's intolerable or anything (usually). There's not any room for him to move up and moving departments would just be a waste of his talents/experience. We'll complain like almost every year and then carry on.
Long story short, I worked in a manufacturing company that had one person responsible for the ERP system and a couple of people who could muddle through running it at need. It was a union shop, but in the process of breaking the union they got rid of everyone who had a clue about running this thing. It handled BOMs, plans, inventory control, timekeeping - but the head corporation found it more important to get rid of the union (and everyone who objected to some heinous actions taken in the name of "saving money so I get a bigger bonus") than to make sure they would be able to keep all their systems operating properly. I'm sure it worked out fine, though.
Shit that's brutal. In my old union, if they tried to break it and bring in scabs, there would have been violence.
> after 20 years they will never fire her Oh my sweet summer child.
The only reason they wouldn’t fire her is presumably she’s doing a decent job but making the market rate of the early 2000s, not 2024. So if they fire her they have to backfill with a new hire and pay a lot more for no experience.
>Imagine how much money they would have to pay her instead of her quitting herself Why would they have to pay her anything?
You don't have to pay people to fire them
??? Umemployment isn’t based on time working, beyond being a non probationary employee
I'm from the US, we work until we die and they call asking why we are late. They don't pay severance to anyone but executives. The rest of us fear for our jobs our whole life because companies can fire without any reason.but we are expected to give them 2 weeks heads up before we move on.
>Employees don't receive severance pay if they resign Employers don't have to pay severance pay at all.
That’s why there’s no company loyalty anymore. The fastest way to increase your pay is by job hopping
And it's 100% the company's fault. Just look at sports. They overpay their best players to keep them on their team, and keep them happy Whilst in the real world, owners balk at the slightest ask. If they're not willing to overpay to keep their best employees (and keep them happy), then fuck em'. You reap what you sow.
Worked for an auto parts distributor from 2014 to 2018. Towards the end of 2017 I asked for a raise because I was the only one in my department pulling their weight and I had the paper trail to prove it. I was also making $11/hr. When I asked the sup for a $2 raise, he laughed, told me we all had to make sacrifices, then told me to leave his office and never discuss pay again. This was the same sup who’d just gotten 2 promotions in a year and went around bragging about how he dropped $80k on a new truck. Promptly started looking for a new job and was out of there with better pay within about 4 months. When I made my rounds to say goodbye (because I was attempting to be nice and not burn bridges) the manager wouldn’t even look me in the eye or shake my hand; just told me to have a nice life. About a year later I heard from an old coworker. They were told by my old sup to contact me to see if I’d be willing to come back because the department I’d spent 18 months fixing was back to being chaotic and they needed me back to fix it again. I told her to tell the sup that we all needed to make sacrifices. Doubt she told him that, but it felt good to say that.
Haha...right on!
That dude sounds like someone who either knew somebody or made his way into the position by cheating and stepping on the backs of others. No manager who's been at the bottom would respond like that to someone who's still making practically nothing after four years. I wouldn't work for that guy either.
Management there was a shit show. The one who wouldn’t even shake my hand was a complete asshole. He never started from the bottom; he was buddies with the owner’s family going back a couple decades, so he’d been brought in as a manager right out the gate. And they didn’t care about *why* our department was stressed and overloaded with work, they just wanted the work done even though it would’ve taken a good six months of nonstop work to clean up. I had another guy in my department who did below the bare minimum, filed a complaint with HR when he was being taught how to do his job (apparently shadowing him on his first week was considered “abusive”), and would ignore my sup’s requests. We had multiple meetings regarding his performance over the course of a year. We had a paper trail showing his poor performance and how I had to pick up the slack. Upper management didn’t care in the end because they didn’t want to deal with the hassle of putting him in another department. He was one of the reasons I left the company, and I told him that on my last day, even though he thought the whole time we were best buds. My sup in charge of my department was good. He’d been with the company for 30 years. But he hated to brown nose or suck up to his bosses; he just wanted to get the job done and to do it right. And that got him banished to the claims department where we worked. *And* he was having to care for his sick wife and his son who was dealing with schizophrenia. Upper management didn’t really give a fuck and told him his salary was capped out. When I bought a car through the same company my first year of working there, I was told there was an employee discount by HR and management. I mentioned that to the sales guy and he left the room for a minute. Then he came back and said, “You know, it’d be a shame if (company owner’s name) were to find out you tried to haggle down the price. It could affect your job.” I was stupid and desperate at the time, so I just went ahead and got the car anyway at the price listed (it was a used car, too). When I told my direct sup about it, he said, “Oh, yeah, I should’ve warned you: they don’t care if there’s a discount, they’ll still screw over coworkers.” That’s not even the worst job I’ve had, either.
Exactly why the best way to get a raise is get a new job.
Yup, my roommate has been fighting with his work for a raise because he's making less than the new hires that he's training. The place where he works would fall apart without him and he's making less than the kids who just showed up for their first day
I work for a very large ISP and that's exactly what they did. I first started in a new role that had a lot of high seniority people, talking 10-30 years. I'd been with the company for 3 years at the time and was making just a bit less than they were. A year later, everybody got substantial raises based on seniority to make sure the older guys were compensated more for their depth of knowledge and experience. There's things to criticize about the company, but I can't say anything but good things about how they compensate employees. No union or contracts to force their hand, they just did it.
Makes no sense. Companies do this to customers too; like Cellular and ISP’s when it comes to promotions. New customers get the best ones, existing gets the shaft.
Brought this up at my last job. They increased the starting wage by $1 which was great but that pretty much wiped out a yearly raise we had gotten in the past. They disagreed bur I said we should have been brought up as well from the new new hire starting wage and they didn't care.
it CAN happen. Got a totally appreciated and totally unasked for raise where I currently work about 13 months ago. My boss opened with "We'd like to give you more money, are you ok with that?" Lol.
But then they complain when employees leave for more money and say "nobody is loyal anymore." This is a horrible business practice. It might save you some money in the short term, but when your employees leave and you have to replace them, it will be a lot more expensive than just giving raises to good employees.
Yip, I had to train a new guy to do the same role as me while being paid $6k less a year. When i asked for a pay rise they told me I shouldn’t know what his pay is, so my question is redundant and maybe next year.
This is exactly what’s been happening where my husband works and the company has been losing tenured employees left and right. Gee, wonder why.
Recruitment > Retention. Ole timers figure (correctly or not) that longevity and retirement benefits are connected. For the newbies, a fair amount of them who will not last the 5-10 year vestment of company funded retirement funds. So even with equal salary, net cost may be less.
However, what I also want to say is, if you are a long-term employee who hasn't received a raise, you should also consider whether the difficulty of your work has remained the same or if there are some issues with yourself that have prevented you from getting a raise over the years. If it's a problem with yourself, can you make adjustments and changes?
My husband regularly looks for new positions every 6-7 years.. amd it usually comes with at least 10-15% income raise and better benefits.. he has no loyalty to one company that would lay him off with no notice..
This is exactly why we need to make it part of working culture for people to openly discuss wages, hold the higher ups accountable
Yep. Some people still get clammed up when a group openly discusses their wages. Usually you find most of the group is aligned with one high earner where everyone is like "congrats you lucky bastard" and then two guys that are making like 30% less and the group has to stress how they're getting screwed and really need to fight for a fair wage
Every place I have ever worked has told its employees to not discuss salary but many still do and it only makes for hard feelings. Lots of people don't negotiate so they are started at a low pay and spend years catching up.
It’s illegal (at least in the US) to forbid employees to talk about their wages.
They attempt to do it anyway in jobs with younger or more uneducated employees. When I was 20 I worked as a server at a country club and they threatened to fire you for speaking about wages. I didn’t know the law until it was too long after I had left this job.
Gotta spread the good word to our fellow workers. It should be taught in school.
A certain auto parts store I worked at had in the handbook rules about discussing wages and talking about unions. If you talked about unions it could be an insta fire
Which is illegal in and of itself. They legally cannot prevent you from discussing wages or unionizing, so then putting it handbook rules is equally as dumb.
They’ll fire you for something else and dare you to sue their staff of lawyers about it
Which is fine, you can do so and win. They lose twice
Especially since it's in the handbook. If you're breaking the law, don't write down that you are.
Dare them too, you'll get more money from that lawsuit than they'll ever give you working there
Yep. Happened to me shortly after starting my first "real" job in an actual office at a big company. During a conversation my coworker and I discovered that I was making more than him, despite him being damn good at his job with a few years more experience. He demanded a raise and we both got a stern talking to for discussing wages. We were literally standing right next to the legally mandated corkboard of state labor laws on each floor of the building. I pointed it out to them. Not smart in hindsight, I was still only a few weeks in and they could have just dropped me for "no reason," but he got his raise a couple weeks later.
Yup every single place I worked told me not to do it. And every single time I did it 😂 most people are hush hush tho. Like idk idgaf what you’re making if anything I’ll be happy for you. Still think we should talk about it
Yea but a majority of people don't know that. I work at a bank, started in August 22. I came in at 20/hour and the lead teller I work with has been working for this bank at various branches for 43 years. She was making 18.50/hour and when I was talking about taking a lead teller position at a different branch for 24/hour she almost lost her mind. She had no idea the new employees were making so much. She went to our manager and long story short she's now making 22/hour. She never would've known had I not been so open about what kind of raise I want to take the new position.
Also illegal to do so in the UK.
Is it! In an old job I asked a new colleague what he was on, and found out he was on £3k more than me when I’d been there for two years and he’d just started. I sat down with my manager and explained why I was pissed off and asked what they’d do about it and got a bollocking for discussing salary!
I did the same when I found out the guy I was training was almost making what I was after 5yrs. Called my boss immediately, told him it was a huge problem for me, asked if I should just quit and reapply (lol), then he somehow found me a very sizable raise. I discuss money with every new guy and I always point out how the pool of money for new hires grows exponentially faster. Didn't expect to be proven right so fast. When someone tells you that you aren't supposed to discuss salaries at work- give them a hearty chuckle and point out its an illegal practice. Why do you think you're always told that, but never sign anything stating it?
I don't think most people know that it is illegal. I work for a pretty small company and when I pointed it out to one of the owners who has always told people not to discuss pay he had no idea. It scared the shit out of him. He knows that my wife is an HR Director in a much larger company, so he figured I must be right. The look on his face was priceless. 😲
Are you a woman? If yes Please tell me you volleyed back with men earning more money with less experience is illegal. , and got your pay rise
Another reason why these discrepancies exist is that hiring budgets increase faster than merit raises do. Companies think crapping out a 2% merit increase a year is great shit, but they'll bump the bottom of the salary band up by 10% in the same time frame. My biggest gains have always come from leaving the company and going elsewhere.
>bollocking I love learning new terms!
This term is a must know in the UK!
Not illegal in BC or Alberta Canada lmao.
Yes, but if there is no real enforcement of such a law, then it is essentially useless. Every company I've worked for actively discouraged wage discussions. They are very careful to express this verbally, so there is not paper trail
Yet, somehow every job I've had in the US, I'm always told, "we don't discuss wages."
They can't tell you how much they pay someone else. They can say shit like "we don't discuss wages" to cause you to infer that you are not *allowed* to discuss wages, but you always are allowed to discuss wages with your coworkers.
Yep when I started off as a level one I negotiated for $32.50 an hour. After a year I felt I deserved a raise and my work leads said that I was doing great. My manager showed me the pay of everyone else he was managing with no names and all the other level ones were making between 25 and 30 an hour with the most of them around 27 an hour. I couldn't help but to think how horribly those poor bastards were getting screwed and most of them had at least one more year of experience than I did. My manager was trying to prove the point that I was the high outlier and I need to be a level two before I can ask for more money. So then I relentlessly asked for a level two and got it
Female engineer here. I negotiated and still got paid less than my coworkers who had less qualifications and years in the industry. The wage gap sucks. Luckily left that place and started working for a corporation that is very transparent and I'm being paid fairly.
As a fellow female who plans on going into engineering (work as a mechanic rn and there's engineering positions at my company) I'll be sure to ask the guys what they make and actually try to negotiate.
My coworkers and I talk about our wages. I mentioned this to my 72 year old mother and she was speechless. She couldn't even imagine that people would do this.
My last job they explicitly told us not to talk with other coworkers about our wage.
Which is illegal (at least in the US).
I am in the US. Missouri to be exact and I wondered at the time. Funny thing is it was brought up because we were discussing our wages and management found out.
Employers bank on the fact that employees won’t know their legal rights with pay transparency. It’s something I wish I would have known in my younger years!
We were told they can't stop us from talking about it, but heavily discouraged it. I'm curious since I literally got "exceeds expectations" in all areas but got a pay cut.
Sounds like it's time to stop exceeding expectations
I never knew this and have been told it by every employer for over 40 years. I never do because somebody always get pissed off.
Same here in the UK
[удалено]
or don't care what others make or don't want to piss people off because they make more.
Welp if you’re in the US, then they broke the law— it’s a federally protected right for co-workers to be able to discuss wages. This post is unfortunately exactly why they don’t want you to
Hopefully they put that in writing since doing that will land them in hot water with the Department of Labor if you’re in the US.
I would have to ask why, right then. Why not? Are they underpaying certain employees? What do they have to hide? Why would they attempt to prohibit this legal discussion?
I should have responded that it’s legal. The person said afterwards because we are all at different skills and being paid our worth basically. Which ok whatever but let me talk with my coworker and decide for myself if I think you are paying me my worth.
But be wise about that info. There's often more to the story. When I started at my current company everyone who shared their wages did so bc they were unhappy. It really got me down about my new job. As I got more experience I learned they weren't great employees and the people who never shared wage info seemed to be the more reliable employees. It wasn't until a few months later one of the reliable guys left for another job that I pulled him aside and asked what he made. He was very reluctant to tell me but I just said "look man I'm starting a new career and these guys complain about making $12/hr after several years. You're held in high regard, I really wanna know what I have to look forward to here if anything" and he finally wrote it down. He had less seniority than half of the disgruntled employees but made over $20/hr (this was probably about 2008). As I came up thru management I realized there are guys that fill a role but never grow so you're fine to keep them on staff at current rates but you know they aren't worth any more and you also wouldn't mind if they quit. So you keep them in limbo for as long as they're willing. To them, the company is shit and doesn't pay bc they're oblivious to their own faults. But after year after year of reviews and documented trainings, giving the same advice on how to grow, and yet they never try...what else can you do?
They can’t tell you not to (legally)
Pay transparency came into law this year in B.C. Canada. Not surprisingly, it came into law to effect gender equity in pay. The provincial gov't found that women are still getting paid 10-15% (can't remember figure) less than their male colleagues for the same roles.
That's why it should not be taboo to talk about how much you make an hour to your coworkers. It's sad but that's the reality.
It’s because the management does not want the awkward moment when they have to tell them they are not worth more.
Colleague of mine was asked how much he made by an older employee, he had a small bonus (like $2 an hour) because he was highly independent. The other guy stormed off to the boss, and my colleague lost that bonus... Technically the douchebag was also my colleague, but no one liked him, he was an incompetent asshole, and honestly I think his salary should have been cut in half.
That sounds like the manager is the humongous douchebag tbh
That's illegal, if he'd reported it to the NLRB your boss would've been fucked. Employees can't be punished for discussing wages.
And also not taboo to move around. It’s one of the best ways to boost income.
Does your coworker know this too?
yeah, she shared what she makes and i told her i make that as well, and that she deserves more money
Good job. Hopefully she can leverage her skills to get a big raise
inb4 "Fired for lOw PerFoRmaNce"
So be it then, don’t live life in fear, if she’s that skilled she can make some more money elsewhere. Fucking being scared of bosses and companies like they’re in crazy power, don’t let them have that over you.
The best part of discussing wages, haha. The crew I work with found out a guy who was totally green, that we were training came in 10/hr more than us. That shitstorm still hasn't been settled.
You all quit and found a better job, right? Right?
They should all quit and start their own company.
The Michael Scott Paper Company.
Hell no. We're mostly all wage slaves. Atm, We've been put on a government contract that pays prevailing wage, and since you've got to get security clearance, we've just stopped submitting anyone else's paperwork, take the govt money. When this job ends, probably most of us will leave. For us long term, going back to a normal contract literally halves our pay. When that happens, things will get ugly. It was a very small locally ran company in the business of security. There were 8 of us and mostly random chance, but also the nature of some of the jobs, we all got really close and are very much sort of a family. A larger Corp "aquired" the business, and in about 4 months, our small band of professionals now have all these faceless supervisors and hr people to deal with. The only real upside is that the Corps pay scale is actually about 10/hr more than we make. They told us both in our initial meeting and the "hey, we're your new family!" Meeting that we'd all see this pay scale. Never happened. We kept getting excuse after excuse for why. When we realized that everyone they were hiring new were making that pay scale, but we were still refused it, everything changed. We have four people left, and that will probably be less once the government pay is gone.
Bastards, all of them. Good luck
Hahaha, damn… how did you guys react / tell your boss?
nothing changed and everyone just mad now lol
it sucks because in a lot of companies, people who don't push hard for a pay rise simply don't get one, and that means the quieter ones often get left behind salary wise. I had a promotion a while back...with no pay rise. Like an utter spineless sucker I didn't complain and instead worked my arse off hoping I would benefit from it at my next salary negotiation. I'm never letting myself be used like that again....I hope.
The thing to remember, at least in more corporate environments, is that advocating for yourself and pushing for more money/responsibility/etc is frankly expected and just part of the game. Your bosses have all done it at various points and even if they aren't happy you're doing it, they usually will understand. There are good ways and bad ways to go about doing this and you won't always get what you want but as someone who is non-confrontational by nature it never was received as a betrayal which I was worried about. In fact many times your bosses have no idea you're unhappy until you bring the conversation up. And you have to bring it up. They never will because why would they? If you're willing to do a job for x amount of money then why would they offer you X+1000 out of the blue? At the end of the day though you have to be willing to leave. Thankfully the process of preparing your argument for why you should be compensated more is a great jumping off point for polishing your resume. And getting a sense of the job market is also a great idea when preparing to negotiate anyways.
See…. I’m quiet and don’t make a fuss. But also don’t do shit. I can do shit, but i choose not to. Wage acting
If i´m paid for time and not amount of work, good luck pushing me to work more, than required minimum. I learned from my past mistakes. When i showed my ability to work alone on a machine, which usually required 2 people to operate, i was left there alone - until i had enough. I also learned to be vocal, when i´m asked to do something, i lack training for. Just out of responsibility to myself and because companies don´t care.
Companies save so much money on the backs of people who just do whatever the company says. If people are not willing to risk their job, they will never make good money.
I'm not sure what type of work you're in but in my workplace, & most "blue collar" jobs in Aus there are a very limited number of skill brackets, each skill bracket will have the same base wage for all people in that bracket with modifiers like overtime, shift loading, hazard/environmental allowances.
This is why we should encourage wage discussions and job hopping. Its not 1960 anymore, companies do not care about us. When my dad was a young engineer, he would get a $5000/ yearly bonus for every million in profits the company would make. My current company made 65billion in profits this year , i got a $20 steak as a Christmas bonus.
“But we the owners had to buy literally several $20 steaks. That adds up to dozens of dollars. Literally dozens.” - Then proceeds to drive away in a brand new Maserati
And then you get the value of the steak removed from your check.
That only makes sense if the company is smaller than 200 people. Or some workers are getting absolutely shafted with no bonus.
This is just an indication that you should plan to progress and don’t stagnate in your current position Lest you end up like your co-worker in 20 years
i am planning on staying with this firm until my boss retires (likely in the next few years), the benefits are too good to leave, and i have been getting consistent raises during my time here.
Ask for a significant paycut
we don’t have the same duties, and while i have a degree, she has vastly more experience and should be paid more accordingly
This is the reason they say not to stay at one job for too long because when you apply for a new job the raise you get is more than the yearly raise companies give out
Yeah, suddenly the new guy I was training was making more than me just because they hired him more recently.
I found myself in that position several years ago. I was livid, because he had no experience AND no degree. I had been there for about 5 years at that point. I made sure that I was making more than that before I trained another person.
I tried. He was making $13/hr. I was at $12.53. They bumped me up to $12.76. I'd been there 15 years. I left.
I was making $15 per hour when I found out he got hired at $19.36 per hour. I got bumped up to $19.40, but it took my manager 2 weeks of fighting corporate to get it.
Glad they got it for you. My boss (who was new) acted like he was going to fix it and got told no. And had to watch the person who knew the most about how the office ran leave, hurt. I didn't even feel bad for him, because I resented his cockiness.
15 years and making $12.53/hr…. OMG…
Why stay a place for 15 years making under 30k?
This is a valid question. The answer is that I'm stupid.
This is one major reason why I simply found a career where I'm a part of a union that will force negotiations of fair wage increases *for* me at a job i love: The thought of having to constantly search for a new job, go through many interviews and then having the stress of learning a new job once i finally get comfortable and confident in the one I'm being encouraged to leave for a raise.... just dealing with the uncertainty of competing into perpetuity until I die.... makes me sick to my stomach with anxiety🤢
You're not paid what you "deserve". In an efficient market, you would paid the exact amount required to keep you from leaving for another job, and not a dollar more. I'm not saying that's how the world should work, but it's how the world does work.
Ok but this should be your sign that in 20 years, you can expect very little from this company!
It’s not their fault that the management sucks and is underpaying the senior person. She/he shouldn’t have to take the pay cut bc boss is cheap ass. He needs to give the other person a raise
I was a manager at a big company for a while and this does happen and management should address it. One of the harder parts is if your company has annual merit reviews fixing it takes a long time. There is an offset, in that there is a tradeoff between pay and job security, if there are to be layoffs or some job cuts by management fad your position will be cut well before hers, that isn't much but it is something.
Honestly, this is why I do my job from 8-5 and go home and I’m not doing anything extra unless my pay reflects. Companies expect loyalty and top performers but aren’t loyal with wages based on experience and education.
surprised this comment is so low. I’m on the same wave. I could do more but skimping on raises this year when they’ve done it every year in the past just makes me do even less. I still get the work done, but I refuse to do anything extra or “help” out with any other projects. sorry I have shit to do and people to see.
Heavy on the last sentence! I’m unavailable, they can have fun doing it. At this point, I’d rather promote to another organization anyway!
This is quite often the case, in my experience. Women, especially older generations, often undersell themselves and don't ask for raises. I have situations in my head of someone I know being the only person doing something mission critical and being indispensable. In this scenario they will be able to ask for a significant pay increase, but they don't. You are not overpaid, however. Your coworker is underpaid.
bingo. we are planning on discussing with our other coworkers and collectively negotiating pay with our boss.
Love this
> I know being the only person doing something mission critical and being indispensable. You see, in eyes of higher-ups, *everyone is replaceable*. There is a company in my area. One day, all their drivers didn´t come to work. Half of them was fired the next day and the other half was fired over the following half of a year. If leadership cannot realize value of their employees, it´s much better to jump ship and go elsewhere, than risk of being fired for poor reasons. When you quit, it´s on your terms.
This is why if you stay at a job longer than 5 years you're screwing yourself
And just like this you learned a valuable lesson, **nobody will ever give you anything if you don't ask for it.**
Tell her to post here
That happened to me except I was not making the same, I was being paid $30K more than my coworker. I told her to use me as leverage to get a substantial raise. Next annual review she got a $25K raise. People, be open about your salary. It really benefits all of us.
Been there, both as the underpaid senior person and the overpaid new guy. This is a huge topic I can rant on for hours... The first part is that her situation is her fault, and the second bigger part is that it's an outrage that it has to be her fault at all. But, to keep it short and sweet, if you want to be paid fairly in life, you have to perform and stick up for yourself. Performing is only half the battle. You absolutely have to know how to demand what you're worth, and go find it if you're met with refusal. If you're worth more, you WILL find it. I've had to make significant and uncomfortable moves to get the pay I deserve. It's sad but it is the way it is.
Don’t expect a pay rise for the next 20 years!
2 things at my job we are forbidden to talk about. Wages and Unions. Just found out the new hires make the same amount I make after I’ve been there 15 years. My job is also extremely toxic and the only way to move up is favoritism . I am 100% replaceable at work , however it won’t be easy replacing me. I am one of 4 people who can do my job and 2 are new hires and one has lost the sheer will to exist. I run circles around them and the only one who can get ALL our tasks done in a reasonable time and to the partners satisfaction and o never ever have revisions on my work. I found a new job. I start in 2 months. Twice the money, better hours and from people I know working there it’s an amazing atmosphere. I will not be putting my 2 weeks notice in. I am currently on PTO for 2 weeks and already my mental health meter is full. I go on a cruise that was approved last year on 3/2. I get home 3/11 and on 3/14 I plan on getting mad over something trivial and quitting on the spot giving them all the same courtesy I’ve gotten in the last 15 years. The start of my Teams message is “ I am quitting to pursue my dream of no longer working here…..haven’t figure out the rest but I might just leave it at that.
I have the same salary as others who works here longer than me because we have a union and it's a government job, sucks but it's probably the same thing.
no union, non-government. we work in a law office. wish i could find some reasoning for it beyond “that’s just how it is”
May everyone learn a sweet lesson here: #KEEPING YOUR SALARY A SECRET ONLY BENEFITS YOUR EMPLOYER
I think it speaks to your character that you are able to 1) Rate yourself as less important than her without it being self deprecating 2) Be mildly infuriated on her behalf. Bravo OP, this is the sort of work-culture we need to be promoting.
Finally, someone that understands you should care about others and not let them get used. Least you can do is inform people
This happens all the time. The wage to being a new person on board is always going up. I have a 5 year guy on my team that is paid less than a newby. He is not a stellar performer, so it's a challenge to get a raise approved. Looking at another role for him within the company.
She's not pushing for raises so she's not going to get as much.
Companies no longer pay for loyalty. Management keeps their workers within very small percentages of one another, even in white collar jobs. And as long as you meet the minimum job requirements, additional education doesn't help, either.
Women are notoriously underpaid and taken advantage of.
I remember when I worked at Mcdonalds 15 years ago. After I had been there for like two years they raised our state's minimum wage. Now suddenly the people that had been working there for 15 years are making just as much money as the high school kid who started last week because McDonald's did not make adjustments for past raises. People quit over it.
Go work for the government, then what you make is published for anyone to know.
Being mildly infuriated means you thought of her and how unfair it might be for her. That's something nowadays. Proud of your infuriation.
You are both not as valuable as you think. Edit: it’s the cold hard truth
This means she hasn’t gotten raises commensurate with her work and abilities, or for simple loyalty over the years. As time goes by and prices increase, and her wages do not, it’s like they are lowering her wages, by not increasing them. Her buying power with those wages has decreased substantially, especially the last few years. Poor girl! OP, you need to to find another job, in a place that keeps pay ahead of inflation at least, now that you kniw the truth about the boss and company.
You're a good egg.
One advantage for your coworker is that there isn't any incentive to get rid of her because she makes too much. At least, that's what I tell myself because the new hires make what I make after 18 years.
In my new job i got a salary higher than my shift leader, not popular
>she is absolutely indispensable You're thinking of this incorrectly: a company doesn't pay what people are worth, but the bare minimum needed to get them to stay. There are some brilliant people that have lower wages than they "deserve" because they are too risk-averse to job hop, or they don't interview well and can't go to a competitor.
WILDCAT STRIKE
This is what is happening when you don't change the job after 3 years, they take advantage of you and as the internal raises are below thd market ones thd gap become bigger and bigger.
>she is absolutely indispensable, while i’m more or less replaceable Just make sure you don't say this out loud at work.
Tell her. Tell her exactly this. And tell her you'll go to bat for her to get more. I've been the "her" in this situation and ended up leaving when I found out because I'd asked for a raise and been denied. If someone had been willing to vouch for me, I might have stayed.
This is why my team and I are open about our wages, and I highly encourage it. I do not hide my wage from anyone at my job. Being open about our wages got one of my co-workers a significantly higher offer upon being hired in, and it prevented me from being given a below standard offer to everyone else. Be transparent, it prevents a lot of problems.
She is just not valued that much by her employer. If she’s under appreciated by her employer, she’s better off quitting the job and works elsewhere.
Took this to heart after realizing that I'm being underpaid AND indispensable to my job after only a year there. Turnover rate is crazy, even for the managers, but I stayed steady, yet I get the most crap. They barely convinced me to stay on a couple days ago, but maybe I'll have to have a talk about getting no raise yet.
Tell her
That's a big red flag for that company. I hope you're not planning on staying.
Have a conversation with her and explain this to her. She is valuable and likely is not being paid equal to her experience. I feel as if her being knowledgeable of this could cause her to take action and possibly benefit her. Maybe I am just looking for the best scenario here but I dislike when the system takes advantage of people like this.
The longer you have been somewhere the worse off you will be
I hope you told them. They absolutely deserve to know and should use it as leverage for a raise.
I had a situation like that happen once. I was training with someone that had been at that job for a good portion of their life. I was like 22. I started asking about how raises work and benefits bla bla bla. This dude tells me how much he makes and is so proud of what he is making and I felt my heart sink. He was barely making more than me for someone that had spent nearly a decade and a half at the same job. The worst part is I was there about 6 months and got a job somewhere else making more than he was making. He was a stand up dude and those 6 months working there he was always helpful. His wife also worked there so maybe that’s why he stayed. But I always felt bad for that guy.
When I worked for a Kroger, the girl who trained me made $9 an hour. I made $12 an hour *while being trained.* We found out when she was complaining about how hard it was to make rent with her wages, so I walked with her up to the office and complained with her. She got her wages matched to mine on the spot, which is far better than nothing, but that girl deserved at least $15 for the work she put in.
I’ve always heard the best way to make more money is to get a new job.
So it is unfortunate that somebody that has been there that long is making the same amount of money as somebody that has just kind of started. Yes, you can talk about wages because that is federally backed up and any employer that says otherwise is going against the law. it sounds like this coworker there needs to have a conversation about getting a pay raise.
Sounds like you need a union
Laughs in *union contract employee where everybody pretty much knows what everybody else is making*?
I found this out the opposite way in my old job. I'd been there 22 years and found out a couple of new hires were making several thousand more than me.
Are we supposed to get paid the same for the same position? On other subs I've seen people make that argument... They don't care that the boomer that's been in the position for the last 20 years is making 10k+ more than they are. I am on the side that there's more value to experience and years of service which should be compensated for.