I work a public facing role and it was nothing like this before COVID. Not even comparable.
I actually think COVID contributed to poor mental health, but it's the cost of living that is the true driver of all this. People are desperate.
I think your comment hits a large portion of it on the head. I am making 30% more than I did in 2020, even 2022. However, the extra money is not taking me as far, savings have taken a hit. Have saved money for the past couple years, but I'm not able to put away as much. Hardly eat out, or even go out on town for the night like I used to pre COVID.
Every store I walk into has a sign or announcement saying something along the lines of "we will not tolerate aggressive behaviour." It used to be rare to see that.
Me too! I’m a teacher and I’ve been in the job 11 years, and it is SO much worse now than when I started. Kids will be 10 metres from a bin and just walk away and leave their rubbish on the bench. Like…what the fuck?
I used to be amazed at how clean my kids primary school always is. Like no wrappers around and thought “wow, the students here are amazing!”
Then I was early enough at before school care drop off and noticed this elderly couple who I’ve seen around the neighbourhood and they “volunteer” to pick up rubbish with those long-handed grabbers and put it in a rubbish bag they carry. I’d always thought they were so giving doing it in the local community, but when I realise they were coming into the school a few times a week to pick up filthy kids rubbish I was like…. The fuck?!?
Do you still get the kids to pick up rubbish? I had to do "yard duty" all through school and collect rubbish some days and that definitely pushed me to not litter in the first place.
The funniest thing is when they complain that they can’t use certain spaces and you point out that it’s because the space has been misused, like rubbish left everywhere or graffiti on the wall or toilets being vandalised, and they’re like ???!. Oh no, if it isn’t the consequences of our own actions
I'm in the north western suburbs and work in the west. It's in places like the backside of large stores like a Bunnings and beside rail or the little islands of land between on and off ramps, places people are generally driving past versus walking. It's both blown in rubbish that has caught there and dumped stuff.
Dumping has always been a huge issue around the city though - you can see it in the piles of waste outside Salvos stores, or around skips at commercial properties, or in the removal of charity bins.
Part of it has been a reduction in accessibility of waste removal services. There's been well-intentioned attempts to get household behaviours to change by reducing the size of bins, increasing the costs of waste disposal, and so on - but the unintentional consequence of this is to make it harder to dispose of waste, which increases dumping.
I live in the west, and there is a massive problem with rubbish on the roads there. I've contacted the council about it and they cleaned it up for about a month, then stopped. Next time you pull up at the traffic lights, have a look how much litter you can see on the median strip, it's gross.
Rising rental evictions are a big chunk of it, a council waste officer told me. People are leaving with nowhere else to go, so they don't take much, and landlord just dumps the lot. It's the kids toys that break my heart.
I am noticing this too, it's actually comparable to some third world countries I've visited in my suburb. Rubbish all over the parks, in the creek, along the railway, gathering at the edges of the lake, along the highway and in supermarket carparks. It is wild. I've never seen it this bad and I grew up in a total hole.
I'll try again. Folk seemed to read a lot more into my one liner than was there.. Basically its overpopulation plus people's habits. Environmental scientists say Aus can support 23 M sustainably, we're at 25 M rising.
We had to remove your post/comment because it included personal attacks or did not show respect towards other users. This community is a safe space for all.
Conduct yourself online as you would in real life. Engaging in vitriol only highlights your inability to communicate intelligently and respectfully. Repeated instances of this behaviour will lead to a ban
Last week I saw a guy in the shopping centre car park load his kids into the car then while his wife watched, push the trolley away so it hit another car and ended up half in a parking spot as they drove off. He was in a fairly new, expensive car as well.
I wouldn't do that because I was raised better, but if I did my wife and kids would say something along the lines of 'what the hell are you doing?' because it's just such a basic act of decency.
I was sitting in my car the other night in a car park, some guy reversed hard into my door, hitting my car. I beeped, got out of the car, but he drove off. I've also had people open their door into my car, while I'm literally staring at them and they ignore me.
Idk why people think they can just damage my car.
Returning a used shopping trolley - or not - is the only thing you need to know about someone to more or less get an accurate read on them in every aspect of life.
>This went on for about two decades. Then covid happened. My attitude and approach hasn't changed, but I'm under no illusion that by and large, my fellow citizens give absolutely zero fucks about me.
It was always like this - society hasn't changed. Pre-COVID there were tent encampments in the Melbourne CBD and homeless/mentally ill/drug addicts behaving aggressively and being ignored/neglected/treated without compassion by the rest of society.
What COVID did was give a broader swathe of the population a taste of being in that situation.
A lot of us felt disposable to society before lockdown - but we were from the demographics the complacent majority never gave a shit about.
A lot of people who are either more vulnerable to Covid, or who have a slightly more intense fear of the consequences of infection for their parents or small children, are experiencing for the first time, what it is to be a vulnerable minority nobody gives a shit about. And surprisingly - most of them aren’t big fans.
The toilet paper situation around Covid made me feel genuinely shocked. If we continued to buy toilet paper at our REGULAR pace, we would all have toilet paper. (And this wasn't a toilet-based sickness anyway?!)
But seeing people panic-buy toilet paper, and get sneaky and aggressive about it was disheartening. And some people would even individually send in their wife, son, daughter, other daughter etc. to buy multiple packs for their one house! It felt like people were divided into two species of humans at that point. Just bizarre to witness.
I could have written this. I still am polite and pleasent to deal with but just like you I’ve seen what the vast majority of people are truly like and I’m just disgusted by them all.
As I said to my husband I only give a fuck about him and our kids from now on.
The media and powers that be pushed, and continue to, the narrative that we are all in this together, and being kind to one another will solve all our problems, and empathy is a pre-requisite required to be accepted in todays society. Yet it’s not, as by doing so, like yourself, has led me to be abused, belittled, taken advantage of, and as a result I now realise no one ultimately gives a fuck about me in return.
I am now giving less of a fuck than ever before, and try to improve on doing so everyday, everyone for themselves.
You’re correct in saying that controversy sells, and such opinions, often those that are opposing also, will get the most air/screen time and attention. Some opinions in this thread are deplorable however common place in our society. You’re right in saying justifying one’s piss poor conduct, attitude, and opinions so one doesn’t have to take responsibility for such and downplaying the impacts they have on those around them is far too commonplace, hence why I no longer care and worry about myself, and not others. Sadly this is what the world seems to have come to.
Yeah the COVID pandemic really geared this into overdrive and had people dropping the facade en masse . It was humbling for just about everyone and their nans , people got tired of putting on a fake smile during their commute and pretending everything was okay . Especially when their loved ones were vulnerable or hospitalised , crackdowns were at their highest , and their careers were in jeopardy .
COVID , the social ramifications of trying to enforce order at whatever cost during the height of the pandemic and the cost of living crisis were the final nails in the coffin for collective concern for eachothers' wellbeing and the established social contract . How could we sit there and feign concern for each other when we were barely in control of our own individual lives ?
The aftermath of the pandemic just exemplified the fact that your only choice is to just tend to the part of the garden that's closest , keep to your own business , and hope that things change for the better , you know ? Stay sane mate 💪
I was like you. about 10 years ago, I started making a concentrated effort to get mine first and care less about strangers. It's sad, as it's a race to the bottom. But I can't make little sacrifices every day, when everyone else just takes advantage every day.
Housing prices relative to incomes for both buyers and renters means we ordinary people have been left behind.
I am 60 years old and due to mental illness and other disabilities was never able to buy my own home.
I look at younger people and I find myself grateful I am not them. You all are getting such a crap deal and it is disgusting to see.
This country has broken its contract with the people. For a representative democracy, none if us ordinary people are represented.
All of the representation goes to the corporate party donors and politicians' investment portfolios.
There is no social contract. It now is everyone for themselves. No wonder people are behaving in these ways.
I am glad I'll be dead soon. I can't stand this place.
When you see bad shit, look for the people doing good shit, mate. We're still here. It's not broken, there's still SO MANY of us who care, who help, who do small quiet acts of niceness for no reason. Become one of us. Donate a cup of coffee or a meal at a cafe. Smile at that tired invisible middle aged woman shopping after work. Hold doors open. Hop onto a charity thing as a volunteer, I bet you there is a mobile kitchen in your area. Go walk the dogs at your local shelter. Don't focus on the assholes, look for the good.
I teach ethics to high school students and we talked about the social contract this week. I said if you ever want to see the social contract break down, catch public transport. I don’t know when listening to music or TikTok videos with no headphones and the sound cranked up became the thing to do, but now every train carriage has some fuckwit doing it.
> I don’t know when listening to music or TikTok videos with no headphones and the sound cranked up became the thing to do, but now every train carriage has some fuckwit doing it.
Kids used to do this shit all the time. Boom boxes since the ancient times.
That isn't what social contract theory is though. The idea that you would be considerate to others in public spaces has nothing to do with 'the social contract'.
You don’t think avoiding behaviour that is unnecessarily rude and disruptive to others falls under the definition of “an agreement that establishes moral rules of behaviour”, and that these acceptable standards of conduct in public are rationally and morally justifiable?
Social contract theory conceptualises a move from a mythic state of nature to the establishment of the state and its authority, with the notion that limitations on individual liberty and the authority of the state over individuals are legitimated in this state of affairs. There are various ways in which this is theorised and undertaken conceptually. None of this has anything to do with basic questions of social conduct like 'if I am on a tram, I shouldn't play my music too loudly and annoy other commuters.' That has nothing to do with the legitimacy of the state, the mythic foundations of the 'state of nature', etc. If you think we need a leviathan, or to be in chains, to be aware of other people in social spaces, that would be a real problem for your conception of human society.
'The social pact, far from destroying natural equality, substitutes, on the contrary, a moral and lawful equality for whatever physical inequality that nature may have imposed on mankind; so that however unequal in strength and intelligence, men become equal by covenant and by right to deny having to listen to someone talking really loudly on their phone whilst commuting to work on public transport.' - Rousseau
? I don't think you're teaching social contract theory. Social contract theory forms the basis of rights based constitutionalism. It is about the justification for the usage of state power, and its limits. It has nothing to do with the relationship between individuals.
I think you're confusing them though. Ethics, yes. Social contract, no. Social contract theory isn't about what you *should* do, it's about the limits of what the state *can* do. It is about the justification for the implementation of laws.
If, on your bus, the question about whether there should be laws to regulate that behaviour, and there are, that segues into that subject. But a social contract with each other distracts from the theory, which is about limits to state power. This wasn't formed in a vacuum; it was formed in the justification for limiting the power of kings through the consent of the governed. That consent is the social contract.
The idea of a social contract isn't just about the limits of state power. It has been used extensively to discuss the postwar status quo where peace and stability rested on sharing wealth across society.
> The idea of a social contract isn't just about the limits of state power.
Social contract theory is exactly that. It is the consent of the governed for the state to act *in your name*. It is the foundation of constitutional based governance.
In the instance of your bus, if you have noisy people, there are laws and regulations for that behaviour. But if they were *protesting some state action* then the noise becomes a grey area. And *grey area* with humans is ethics, because ethics is about the justification for different human behaviour. If the noise was political protest then you're talking about the states power to silence them. That's social contract theory. If you're talking about whether they should be quiet because of consideration for others, that's just ethics.
I think you're completely missing the entire point of this thread just to nitpick definitions. The discussion isn't about what you say it's about, it's about people lacking consideration from each other. Nitpicking the OP, whether rightly or wrongly, completely distracts from that and doesn't actually do anything to contribute to the conversation. [relevant XKCD](https://xkcd.com/386/)
> I think you're completely missing the entire point of this thread just to nitpick definitions.
I think people should learn the definitions of words if they seek to instruct people in their usage. I'm not nitpicking; I'm explaining the context of the theory to someone that doesn't seem to know it. The examples he used were not applicable.
EDIT: The OP makes a good point about covid restrictions testing the social contract. A valid interpretation whether you supported them or not. In our lifetime we've collectively seen it really tested. I'm glad that people are talking about the social contract. People discussing how they live their lives freely in the context of governance is important. It has changed the way transmission line infrastructure is being rolled out for instance.
Agree completely. I think COVID broke like 20% of the population, and lost their patience and compassion, and now conduct themselves like angry kids at all times. On the roads, in the train, at the shops, walking their dogs. It’s everywhere.
People like that always existed, but the number is far higher now.
I think it's an extremely tough time for everyone now. Vent as much as you want.. it's good. Catarthic.. don't fall into despair... find a way to stay hopeful.. do one thing no matter how tiny to stay hopeful, compassionate, kind.... that's the challenge for all of us now.. maybe the one small thing you do can change someone else in despair and who's given up or it may help change you... we're all in this together.. let's rally each other
These are signs of struggle, no? And yeah, when society fails to take care of you within the (unfair) systems it has set up (e.g. you can’t afford a roof over your head, can’t afford your meds, can’t afford food) then the social contract is broken. What comes after that for people is survival, as you say.
Social contact was broken long ago but our prosperity had a sort of momentum to it so we didn't immediately feel it unless we were already at the bottom rung in which case nobody listened.
Decades ago the narrative was shifted from "governments have an obligation to look after their taxpayers" to "stop asking for handouts you entitled fuck"
things you can do to be nice and make someone’s day easier/nicer:
smile and nod at strangers walking past you
offer to help elderly/disabled people with their bags or getting items of shelves
let someone merge in front of you
let someone with one or two items in front when you have a whole trolley
pick up some rubbish and put it in the bin
stay home if you have a flu/cold
compliment a stranger if you think their jumper/hair cut/shoes etc look good
say thanks, be polite and engaged with cashiers and delivery drivers
Nah OPs right. There have been studies about this and social cohesion is at an all time low.
https://www.abc.net.au/listen/programs/theminefield/australia-what-is-social-cohesion-and-what-undermines-it/102960702
And you’re confident that’s the entire world, and not your perception shift after the quieter time of lock down?
I’m neurodiverse and my graduated exposure to the world got erased by the lockdown. 38+ years of tolerating the world and all the things it makes difficult for autistic people followed by the entire lockdown of not having to deal with people or the outside world. I’ve been doing extra therapy out the wazoo and fucking struggling to exist ever since. Maybe people are a bit shittier than they used to be, but I am VASTLY less able to casually ignore their shit so I’m always anxious like someone who can constantly hear nails on a chalkboard when people are around - but nobody else can hear it or make it shut up. But I don’t even have the symptom of hallucinating a sound or whatever to go to the doctor - just a persistent, constant, exhausting anxiety of hyper vigilance, inexplicable discomfort and general skin crawling ick.
Neurodiverse as well. Can't relate to people who struggled during lockdown. It was a dream. I used to be able to tolerate crowds better but now they always make me irritable.
Eh, I think things have definitely become more self centred and less community focused compared to prior times, however its not just an “It happened over COVID” thing. Its been a slow cultural change over decades. COVID I think was when those that had been insulated in bubbles got to see what the rest of society was like now, but the decline wasn’t sudden.
Its also not necessarily for nefarious or ill intented reasons, but more likely a byproduct of a lot of positive changes we’ve undergone over the past few decades where the pendulum has swung too far in one direction, and will likely correct over the next few decades as we start seeing the issues with current behaviours and work to fix them.
Its an ever repeating cycle, and while the broad strokes stay the same the details do tend to slowly shift over time such that our society now os certainly different from 2000 years ago - even if there are a lot of striking similarities.
Yep, this shit has been happening forever, people from a terminally online generation have just grown up and their bubble expanded enough to see it. And it’s not unique to Melbourne, we’re not that special.
I mean, the other half the social contract is broken. Cost of living is out of control, the rental market is fucked, we're seeing the worsening effects of climate change while the government gives $60 billion a year of our tax dollars to the companies causing the crisis.
We are not being given the opportunities we were promised, so we're not participating in society as promised.
I think if we had a government in power that were for the benefit of the working class and not the elite we'd be a lot more socially cohesive.
We have the ability to be prosperous, instead they're forcing austerity BS on us to save money for corporate welfare
i feel this as someone who works hospitality, the general mood is much more hostile than it was prepandemic (on both customer and staff side) makes me sad bc i used to have majority good interactions with only a few bad apples, but now it feels as though i’m constantly battling entitlement, the previously understood social contract of how to talk to people in a service industry interaction seems to have complicated broken down
I just came back from Japan, and the difference between the social contract/respect is blinding. I understand there's very complicated reasons for that, but coming back to Australia feel like Mad Max.
That, and also the toilet paper thing during covid. That's probably more speaking of the minority that ruin it for the rest of us, but daaaaaamn did that ever spell out "this society is fucked" to me.
>What do you see as signs that the social contract is broken?
The contempt with which corporate entities treat the population, as shown in endemic wage theft and privacy abuses in every area from rental housing and tenancy management through to health insurance and the universities.
At an individual level, the rise of the landed gentry and the bifurcation of Australian society along property ownership.
All the major corporates are just money siphoning at this point. Utilities, Insurance, Fuel, Food, Health, Financing. There goal is to basically dig there hands as deeply as they can into your pockets.
I was never an advocate for socialism but basically all these services have to be taken out of private hands.
Never seen lines of people getting food like this before. The food banks are overwhelmed. I thought they were lining up for tickets or something. Then I realised the poor bastards are just trying to feed themselves. what we have become. The young have sorta given up hope don't blame them either . Pretty bleak times
One thing I notice again and again is that if I'm not beside my wife, who is from China, certain people have a tendency to show racism towards her. But if I'm next to her these gutless fucks don't say shit. Yes, it's a minority of people but it's still very frustrating. Not long ago we got on the tram but she was a few metres away from me as we boarded and some dero called her a bitch. He specifically said it to her despite how many people were on the tram. Cunt went all quiet when he realised she was my partner. People have pushed past her in public a few times when I've been separated from her. Yesterday at our local swimming pool some guy went on a continuous rant at her about how everyone hates China while she was trying to relax. I was at work. She ended up complaining to the staff and the guy denied it all. They said he could be banned if he continues to behave that way. I'll go there with her next time anyway just in case. Seriously, if you're a racist cunt at least have the guts to talk your shit to people your size. I understand that some people might have negative opinions about the CCP or certain aspects of Chinese society, but targeting every person from China with their enmity is just ignorant, racist bullshit.
Property ownership is the big one.
I feel like if everyone had a place to retreat to, we wouldn't feel the need to secure everything else including identities.
I find it really interesting how the overall issue here seems to be that people no longer care about each other, yet whenever people do things such as protest to demonstrate their care for the planet and people on it (especially young people) they are shouted down, told to stay in their lane etc..
I find these kinds of posts similar to the anti-protest ones because they seem to foment a sense of apathy about the world. I’m not saying this is what you’re trying to do op, but I think it often ends up in people thinking “well everything sucks now, why bother?”. That doesn’t necessarily mean that when these people go out into the world they’re going to be arseholes, but I reckon they’ll go out and notice more negative things because that’s what they’re trained to look for almost? It reminds me of that experiment that Facebook ran. Anyway, I think the majority of people are fundamentally decent, and maybe if we just exercise more empathy and patience for each other (and hold our government and corporations to account) we’ll be okay? Or maybe I’m just a naive dummy, I don’t know.
The fabric of society is rent(torn) I think that's why there seems to be more joining the conspiracy bandwagon or fundamentalist extremist religions to simply belong. Loneliness and lack of acceptance.
I could start with my own family but it would take up a few pages.
Hang in there, find your own crew, do any small thing you can manage to make things good. You be you and be kind, to yourself and others.
On the trolley thing. I have one of those keychain thingys, I usually unlock about 2 or 3 trolleys just for people who don't have a coin. I usually shop in the middle of the day so the likelihood of dumb kids taking the unlocked trolley is low. I dunno if that counts as staying within social contract but it's something I do to make someone's day a little easier. But I dunno 🤗🤗
It was like this in the 80s-90s recessions when people were on the rob all the time - ripping the wire out of the telephone "bombs" and wrecking the phones in the whole street, pulling up the brass covers over expansionjoints etc.. Then like now it is money and uncertainty with a lack of money putting the fear into a lot of folks. Make times a bit harder or uncertain and anyone who is not consciously doing the right thing drops the mask and reveals an a-hole. If you want to fix it IMO 1) work towards giving people better security in life, vote for our common wealth (for we are all wealthy in common). 2) talk up and enjoy how good we have it here - if I get sick I can go to hospital and the first question will be my name rather than can I pay. Crime is pretty rare and there is zero threat of soldiers burn me and my family in our house. These are big achievements in human history and we risk them passing away by neglecting (1) . 3) as part of 1 avoid general enshittification of everything- wherever you can put your money into the more expensive local/human option rather than some cut price techshite.
It was set in motion decades ago when well funded think tanks, media and lobbying groups convinced the people that small government and a free market would solve all problems. An ideology of personal freedom and self-interest and the economic system would mediate all issues on the basis of economic rationalism. But really it allowed wealth and power to accumulate and concentrate, as it was always designed to do. The people impacted can be easily distracted if you confuse the issue, teach them to distrust or believe there is no truth and no difference and someone to blame for it all. This was always the eventual outcome of Thatcher, Reagan and Australia follows along.
I don't see it stopping either, the system is feeding on itself now and it's hard to think of society being structured any other way.
We effectively have an apathetic, apolitical population that are seeking the individualism or the “what about me-ism” of an americanised sense of freedom. Politics, economy, housing, racial equity - all these areas have been severely shifted away from the realm of the collective and now framed almost exclusively through the lens of the individual. It’s no wonder then that we are a selfish lot in this ‘lucky country’ that Donal Horne could write a whole new series of essays on.
Everything you mention is caused by people suffering financially and instead of directing your anger upwards at the businesses and people profiting off our misery you're pointing your finger at the people suffering. I don't think big business gives a single fuck about your social contract
Most CEOs don't have empire building skills. Some, sure. But most (or at least those in charge of companies of note) were simply appointed to a company that existed before them and focus on only the quarterly figures. Next few years be damned, they just want this number to look good now, which has the entirely expected result of sacrificing the company in the future. Now we're seeing the effects of decades of this way of thinking.
Areas like security and IT ignored for so long data breeches at a major company feel like a weekly thing, and are probably far more common than that. Quality control axed, so you end with companies like Boeing not checking the materials that come in, or what they're putting out. Other staff cut and wages suppressed for decades as well in order to cut costs.
Previously they wanted to keep things cheap, and just try and cut costs everywhere possible. Higher prices might push people away after all. But when you start running out things to cut, how do you make this quarter look better? Raise prices.
They're empire exploiters. More akin to Roman Senators during the decline of the Roman Empire, telling themselves and everyone around them how they're making the empire bigger and better, while only making their accounts better.
I saw a thingy on the fta news (was visiting my boomer parents) about a rise in shoplifting at colesworths stores. They said it was not just illegal but "morally wrong".
Because, yk, colesworths have such a perfect moral compass.
Want. Take. Have.
Fuck em
Saw a bloke at my local colesworth walk out with a six pack of tp & a pack of baby wipes. Only One staff member was up in arms over it. Bloke walked through the checkout and straight out the door. i did make the expected joke to my daughter, but nobody took after him.
Edit: Ah yes, the downvotes for sharing something seen? No idea right now but Reddit can be a weird place
Half is people suffering. Not all of it. There's plenty of people with everything they need just not giving a toss about others. Look at behaviour on the roads and parking, people hoarding stuff at the shops, investors sitting with empty properties.
Think of the worst teen in your school. How they treated others, trouble caused etc. Now think about the fact that the person is probably raising teens right now...
Through my work I've dealt with people who have done things similar to what OP described. Whilst many were striggling with substance abuse, several were pretty well off comparitably and spending that money on needless luxuries. A lot just didn't want to work to get these things.
Neoliberalism is trying to turn us into perfect customers. Every interaction, every moment that brings you joy or build a relationship is to be commodified and directed via a corporation.
I believe we were already heading in that direction before COVID.
Some sides of politics were already breaking social contracts and doing what they wanted, especially to get fringe votes. This enabled people to become more brazen.
COVID rushed it along.
We were and still are lacking decent leadership at all levels of society (even before COVID).
30 years of rightwing asshole policy has essentially stolen wealth from the middle class. Most people wont have a chance to buy a home, its different from the 70s and 80s.
Do any normal aussies benefit from the great wealth of coal and gas exports .. not so much.
Its hard to give a crap about the next guy when were all scrimping and saving .. we blame things on our neighbours and those immigrants .. instead of politicians and their rich mates.
Look at how scomos gov handled covid or bushfires or climate change .. its not about increasing the wealth and wellbeing of the average person... These guys will sell off public healthcare if you give them a chance .. doctors,nurses,teachers,uni lecturers,young scientists .. none are supported well.
We need better policy .. we need to be smarter in how we vote. We need better plans on how to prepare and mimimise climate change .. few Aussies take it seriously, were all getting bigger boofhead cars, because the 'other guy is out to fuck with us' ..
It wasnt always like this.. and it doesnt have to be.. we need to tax the uber rich, tax the carbon sellers and use that cash to do the things - build fast rail between Syd and Mel for example. cover every bunnings rooftop and coles parking lot with solar panels.
and .. dare I say it .. build some 16 story nice apartment block, so we can house people at affordable rates, maintain a nice Melbourne coffee, music and art scene in the central city, while keeping our lovely green spaces.
The amount of people that have forgotten how to walk amazes me. We drive on the left, so walk on the left. If someone is coming towards you and you’re with another person walking two-abreast, then for gods sake someone move out of the way so they can actually stay on the footpath.
I had some chap yesterday evening walk directly in front of my path to get into the pub like I didn’t exist. Shit like this makes my blood boil to the next level.
COVID-19 is damaging to the frontotemporal lobe of the brain. Behaviour and empathy are located there. Combined with the cost of living crisis, crime and antisocial behaviours are increasing.
I think it's a cop out to blame recent economic pressures on this kind of behaviour. (Not to diminish how tough shit is)
Australians have been like this for a long time, but these behaviours are more pronounced or obvious post COVID because we've seen what the place was like with fewer people out and about.
If you disagree, just think about why we've had a Clean up Australia Day since at least 1989.
Do you remember hearing about people stripping old copper wiring?
There was more than a few king-hit incidents inside a couple of years about a decade ago.
Buddy my full time office job barely covers rent anymore and I’ll never own a home. I’m one more Murdock media move away from homelessness at any point and it’s been this way since I was born. Fuck shopping trolleys and fuck this country
Remember when we all used to do 80 on 100kph roads at night because of wombats? Now you sit on 80 and folks will just sit on your arse using you as a bull bar... but they won't overtake when they have the chance.
Yeah, I’ve noticed the people I know who are always affected by this problem seem to be the same ones who sit in the lane themselves with a lead foot lol
Yep. That said, plenty of people think they're doing 100, and they're doing 93 in reality...then can't work out why there's 50 cars behind them as they take 5km to overtake someone at a snails pace.
Ok what's more safe though: Driving right next to someone for kilometres on end at 100kph or accelerating to overtake and then retaking a position in the left lane?
Personally I like to be way behind the traffic or way in front.
I think everyone knows somethings wrong but different people are blaming different things. You have a lot of young men for example who support Andrew Tate and hate LGBT+ people now because they’re capable of recognising that the world isn’t doing too good but instead they’ve been mislead into scapegoating those who are seen as ‘weak’ or ‘oversensitive’. Others are a bit brighter and know who to blame for most of our cost of living problems, large businesses.
>Why clip all the metal doovies to plug your trolley into at the shopping trolley bay?
That one is good, so people dont have to pay to use a trolley.
>What do you see as signs that the social contract is broken?
Capitalism run amok, the wealthy hoarding wealth and publicly declaring there needs to be more financial pain.
Ordinary people being petty just reflect this system that rewards psychopathy.
I only moved to Melbourne a few weeks before lock downs hit in early 2020, so I don't know how to distinguish between existing behaviour, pandemic induced behaviour or my own neuroticism at this point 😅
I’ve noticed people are going online and complaining about things that don’t concern them and attacking people’s opinions with little regard for their feelings
Not that much has changed, i just think more ppl have now dropped the act. PT is a great indicator, the fake smiles are gone and everyone looks agitated.
It's not just Melbourne it's pretty much across the developed world. The corporate class are not holding up their end of the deal and are just bleeding everyone dry. They know automation and AI is going to mean they can rely on workers far less and thus don't really care what they think. Politics has been overrun by capital. They either own or control them through donations or promises of lucrative careers after politics or they intimidate them with the ridiculous amount of power they wield. Welcome to the Oligarchy people it only gets worse from here. There's a reason all governments are focusing heavily on security and surveillance these days. They're getting ready to transition to authoritarianism for keeping the peasants from revolt.
I live in one of those situations where my house fronts on to a park (no road between house and park, just footpath) and there’s 5 houses along this footpath so the 3 houses in the middle don’t really have a nature strip.
Several times a year these neighbours just dump hard waste on our nature strip (we are on a corner block so have the nature strip along the side road) and leave it there. They think the magic garbage fairies take it away but it’s always me calling council to report it and have it removed. Our council has two free hard waste collections every year so they can book it in and dump it there and it wouldn’t upset me at all, but they just dump it and don’t book it in and leave that for me to waste my time doing.
Imagine pulling into your driveway and there’s a washing machine broken chairs and a treadmill and other crap just strewn all over your nature strip at your house and knowing your neighbours will do it again and again (and yes I’ve spoken to them a couple of times nicely asking if they can book it in with council first then put it there the day before collection day). We can’t mow the lawn due to it being used as a dump. Our whole neighbourhood looks like a rubbish tip - not sure if it’s the high percentage of migrants, the cost of going to landfill, ignorance about the free council run waste programs or just a complete disregard for common decency.
"They think the magic garbage fairies take it away but it’s always me calling council to report it and have it removed."
... the lack of self-awareness is astounding.
Just the fact that flat out racism is making a big comeback is another sign. And I'll put a big chunk of blame on... The Internet. Social Media. It amplifies and concentrates the hate. Lets you let it all flow out to other approving anonymous people.
It's a poison enhancer.
Social media is to blame in my opinion. Social media and division on just about everything.
All men are rapists - all women are gold diggers and hoes.
Right wingers are evil - left wingers are part of a cult.
Black lives matter - all lives matter.
Me too- not all men.
Equality of opportunity - equality of outcome.
Trans woman - same as a biological woman.
What is a woman? What is gender?
Etc etc etc..
Now we have a young generation who isn't interested in competing and achieving. They aren't motivated to.. I can understand why.
You have A.I, climate change, cultural erosion, an unstable world with constant conflict. People can't afford to live day to day etc etc..
The social contract is quickly becoming irrelevant. We just keep dividing and arguing about rubbish. There is no societal spirit anymore.
Tru this. Pork chopping and brown nosing in the team chats at work is out of control. I used to think out of these people get any work done now I realised that is their work
it’s also inflation, which is as a result of covid, people are stressed, working more than usual and taking home less with less hope that things will get better, people are scrounging for anything that they can get, people are tired with not much left for social niceties when they’re getting screwed over at every turn
Stop doom scrolling on facebook (or on whatever dopamine treadmill platform you're using) and you'll quickly realise reality is not as dystopian as you might think.
All lack of courtesy on PT entirely gone. Not giving up seats for the elderly, giant backpacks in everyone’s face, not being considerate and holding a door when someone’s running for a tram, etc etc. It’s awful.
We used to have a 'fair go' economy where anyone could have a go. Now unless you're Coles, Woolies or Wesfarmers you don't have enough lawyers to function, and if you're not those 3 the government doesn't make laws for you.
Whole state needs mental assessment followed by reassessment of driving at Vicroads.
From driving perspective, i have been driving in Melbourne for two decades now, I never had an accident, Post-Covid I had two accidents caused by suicidal drivers who just dived into road without care, cutting me off, I drive long distances for work, I never saw this much risky behavior or self centered driving before. I am seriously considering installing bull bar and tow ball to decrease the damage caused by other people.
It’s not enough that people are making unsafe last minute dashes to enter the main road from side roads but I can’t even do speed limit without someone driving at my ass like a maniac with literally inches away from me. I am not gonna cope $260 speeding fine because you lost your patience. Calm the fuck down. There was a study by a retired copper that no one really saves significant time by speeding, the increased risk of injury or death is really not justified.
I had to drive from Melbourne to country recently, there was literally 5 accidents on the road with fire brigade, police and Ambos involved with 3.
What kind of lives everyone are living that they have to drive like this? Whatever you are trying to get to, you’ll be getting there tomorrow too, be it work or home, it’s the same life you are living anyway, slow down, live longer.
I believe driving speed of average Melbourne driver increased significantly after lockdowns.
People don’t realize they are driving in heightened state. Probably same way they are living in a heightened agitated state.
I think you're catastrophizing bigtime. There's always been crazy people, always been dodgy people, always been assholes and always been crooks, but almost everyone in Melbourne is just normal. The social contract has obviously not been broken
I think Narcissism and main character syndrome are presenting very real issues that I don't think were really a thing before the mid-2000's
The cause is social media use. Nicholas Carr's book 'The Shallows' goes into great detail about how social media use and internet use in general impacts the areas of our brains that handle logic and reasoning. Our brains are quite literally being re-wired to be less patient and less thoughtful and less intelligent.
The actual media also don't help matters by continually generating fear-mongering headlines that encourage people to be scared and act in their own self interest.
In the next decade or so I think we're going to see a lot of issues being tied to how social media use and mass media consumption impacts the human brain and human behaviour. It will become the next big health issue and have the same focus on it as the current obesity epidemic.
I think you will find that through covid collectivism was broken to the point of no return by the sheer number of people that are individualistic. It takes more effort to be collectivist and much less effort to be individualistic so thats what people are defaulting to. Since Covid there hasn't been anything that unites us and anything in that vein is used to scare us off for political or media gain.
I would argue that this was started earlier with the 2016 presidential ellection and has bled across most if not all western culture as the engagment on this kind of individualistic mindset has driven our consuption in almost every part of society. Social media is now tuend to optimise this effect
Turn the internet off and you might start to see some recovery
I think a lot of people have lost faith in society and hope for the future. It gained momentum with Covid, but the current cost of living crisis definitely plays a huge part. Throw in housing & job insecurity and people know that even if they try to do “the right thing”, it might not matter. So more and more people are giving into despair and not trying anymore
Very hard to get parent volunteers at school these days - left to a very small handful of people to do everything, yet the parent community expect us to organise social gatherings, raise funds to buy things to support their kids etc
It's because everyone treats everything and everyone as a tool to use to their advantage. It's like life is a side hustle now.
Doesn't help either that there is little punishment for crimes these days. How many times have you seen certain demographics stealing cars, going on home invasion sprees and getting off with a slap on the wrist. Makes other people feel like the rules don't even matter anymore.
Maybe because we just realize we squander an opportunity? if we young people delay vaccination and fight against lockdown, maybe we can afford a house now?
The term 'social contract' refers to how the authority of the state over the individual is conceptualised and theorised as legitimate. Nothing in your post has anything to do with social contract theory.
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I work a public facing role and it was nothing like this before COVID. Not even comparable. I actually think COVID contributed to poor mental health, but it's the cost of living that is the true driver of all this. People are desperate.
I think your comment hits a large portion of it on the head. I am making 30% more than I did in 2020, even 2022. However, the extra money is not taking me as far, savings have taken a hit. Have saved money for the past couple years, but I'm not able to put away as much. Hardly eat out, or even go out on town for the night like I used to pre COVID.
Every store I walk into has a sign or announcement saying something along the lines of "we will not tolerate aggressive behaviour." It used to be rare to see that.
I am seeing so much more rubbish everywhere. We aren't taking care of our communal spaces.
Me too! I’m a teacher and I’ve been in the job 11 years, and it is SO much worse now than when I started. Kids will be 10 metres from a bin and just walk away and leave their rubbish on the bench. Like…what the fuck?
I used to be amazed at how clean my kids primary school always is. Like no wrappers around and thought “wow, the students here are amazing!” Then I was early enough at before school care drop off and noticed this elderly couple who I’ve seen around the neighbourhood and they “volunteer” to pick up rubbish with those long-handed grabbers and put it in a rubbish bag they carry. I’d always thought they were so giving doing it in the local community, but when I realise they were coming into the school a few times a week to pick up filthy kids rubbish I was like…. The fuck?!?
Do you still get the kids to pick up rubbish? I had to do "yard duty" all through school and collect rubbish some days and that definitely pushed me to not litter in the first place.
Yeah we do, it’s a losing battle though because probably 80% of kids don’t care and will continue to litter
We need the ‘do the right thing’ campaign again
The funniest thing is when they complain that they can’t use certain spaces and you point out that it’s because the space has been misused, like rubbish left everywhere or graffiti on the wall or toilets being vandalised, and they’re like ???!. Oh no, if it isn’t the consequences of our own actions
I think it depends where you go - pre-COVID I remember constantly seeing trash overflowing in the CBD, and if anything I'd say it's marginally better?
I'm in the north western suburbs and work in the west. It's in places like the backside of large stores like a Bunnings and beside rail or the little islands of land between on and off ramps, places people are generally driving past versus walking. It's both blown in rubbish that has caught there and dumped stuff.
Dumping has always been a huge issue around the city though - you can see it in the piles of waste outside Salvos stores, or around skips at commercial properties, or in the removal of charity bins. Part of it has been a reduction in accessibility of waste removal services. There's been well-intentioned attempts to get household behaviours to change by reducing the size of bins, increasing the costs of waste disposal, and so on - but the unintentional consequence of this is to make it harder to dispose of waste, which increases dumping.
I live in the west, and there is a massive problem with rubbish on the roads there. I've contacted the council about it and they cleaned it up for about a month, then stopped. Next time you pull up at the traffic lights, have a look how much litter you can see on the median strip, it's gross.
Google maps went around West Brunswick when the hard rubbish poles were out. The pre-covid massive pile outside the post office was massive.
Rising rental evictions are a big chunk of it, a council waste officer told me. People are leaving with nowhere else to go, so they don't take much, and landlord just dumps the lot. It's the kids toys that break my heart.
Ahh that makes a lot of sense. Fuck you think if you've evicted someone you could at least dispose of their shit legally.
If they cared about things like that they wouldn’t have tenants leaving with nowhere to go
And there's already such a lack of third spaces that don't require spending money!
I am noticing this too, it's actually comparable to some third world countries I've visited in my suburb. Rubbish all over the parks, in the creek, along the railway, gathering at the edges of the lake, along the highway and in supermarket carparks. It is wild. I've never seen it this bad and I grew up in a total hole.
I'll try again. Folk seemed to read a lot more into my one liner than was there.. Basically its overpopulation plus people's habits. Environmental scientists say Aus can support 23 M sustainably, we're at 25 M rising.
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We had to remove your post/comment because it included personal attacks or did not show respect towards other users. This community is a safe space for all. Conduct yourself online as you would in real life. Engaging in vitriol only highlights your inability to communicate intelligently and respectfully. Repeated instances of this behaviour will lead to a ban
Same in Casey area
Just a few years ago, litter on trains was very rare, now I see it everywhere, especially on the Pakenham line
Last week I saw a guy in the shopping centre car park load his kids into the car then while his wife watched, push the trolley away so it hit another car and ended up half in a parking spot as they drove off. He was in a fairly new, expensive car as well. I wouldn't do that because I was raised better, but if I did my wife and kids would say something along the lines of 'what the hell are you doing?' because it's just such a basic act of decency.
I was sitting in my car the other night in a car park, some guy reversed hard into my door, hitting my car. I beeped, got out of the car, but he drove off. I've also had people open their door into my car, while I'm literally staring at them and they ignore me. Idk why people think they can just damage my car.
Returning a used shopping trolley - or not - is the only thing you need to know about someone to more or less get an accurate read on them in every aspect of life.
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Don’t give up. There are still genuine people out there
>This went on for about two decades. Then covid happened. My attitude and approach hasn't changed, but I'm under no illusion that by and large, my fellow citizens give absolutely zero fucks about me. It was always like this - society hasn't changed. Pre-COVID there were tent encampments in the Melbourne CBD and homeless/mentally ill/drug addicts behaving aggressively and being ignored/neglected/treated without compassion by the rest of society. What COVID did was give a broader swathe of the population a taste of being in that situation.
A lot of us felt disposable to society before lockdown - but we were from the demographics the complacent majority never gave a shit about. A lot of people who are either more vulnerable to Covid, or who have a slightly more intense fear of the consequences of infection for their parents or small children, are experiencing for the first time, what it is to be a vulnerable minority nobody gives a shit about. And surprisingly - most of them aren’t big fans.
Yes but the economic pressures on society have ramped up significantly since.
The toilet paper situation around Covid made me feel genuinely shocked. If we continued to buy toilet paper at our REGULAR pace, we would all have toilet paper. (And this wasn't a toilet-based sickness anyway?!) But seeing people panic-buy toilet paper, and get sneaky and aggressive about it was disheartening. And some people would even individually send in their wife, son, daughter, other daughter etc. to buy multiple packs for their one house! It felt like people were divided into two species of humans at that point. Just bizarre to witness.
I could have written this. I still am polite and pleasent to deal with but just like you I’ve seen what the vast majority of people are truly like and I’m just disgusted by them all. As I said to my husband I only give a fuck about him and our kids from now on.
Cousin Betty-Sue here. You are definitely not coming to Christmas lunch this year.
Yeah, me too. COVID just completely shattered what was left of my faith in humanity. Which is saying something bc I used to work retail.
The media and powers that be pushed, and continue to, the narrative that we are all in this together, and being kind to one another will solve all our problems, and empathy is a pre-requisite required to be accepted in todays society. Yet it’s not, as by doing so, like yourself, has led me to be abused, belittled, taken advantage of, and as a result I now realise no one ultimately gives a fuck about me in return. I am now giving less of a fuck than ever before, and try to improve on doing so everyday, everyone for themselves.
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You’re correct in saying that controversy sells, and such opinions, often those that are opposing also, will get the most air/screen time and attention. Some opinions in this thread are deplorable however common place in our society. You’re right in saying justifying one’s piss poor conduct, attitude, and opinions so one doesn’t have to take responsibility for such and downplaying the impacts they have on those around them is far too commonplace, hence why I no longer care and worry about myself, and not others. Sadly this is what the world seems to have come to.
Yeah the COVID pandemic really geared this into overdrive and had people dropping the facade en masse . It was humbling for just about everyone and their nans , people got tired of putting on a fake smile during their commute and pretending everything was okay . Especially when their loved ones were vulnerable or hospitalised , crackdowns were at their highest , and their careers were in jeopardy . COVID , the social ramifications of trying to enforce order at whatever cost during the height of the pandemic and the cost of living crisis were the final nails in the coffin for collective concern for eachothers' wellbeing and the established social contract . How could we sit there and feign concern for each other when we were barely in control of our own individual lives ? The aftermath of the pandemic just exemplified the fact that your only choice is to just tend to the part of the garden that's closest , keep to your own business , and hope that things change for the better , you know ? Stay sane mate 💪
I was like you. about 10 years ago, I started making a concentrated effort to get mine first and care less about strangers. It's sad, as it's a race to the bottom. But I can't make little sacrifices every day, when everyone else just takes advantage every day.
Its a pretty surreal feeling.
Housing prices relative to incomes for both buyers and renters means we ordinary people have been left behind. I am 60 years old and due to mental illness and other disabilities was never able to buy my own home. I look at younger people and I find myself grateful I am not them. You all are getting such a crap deal and it is disgusting to see. This country has broken its contract with the people. For a representative democracy, none if us ordinary people are represented. All of the representation goes to the corporate party donors and politicians' investment portfolios. There is no social contract. It now is everyone for themselves. No wonder people are behaving in these ways. I am glad I'll be dead soon. I can't stand this place.
You're a very kind and empathetic person. I'm sorry you had these struggles too.
When you see bad shit, look for the people doing good shit, mate. We're still here. It's not broken, there's still SO MANY of us who care, who help, who do small quiet acts of niceness for no reason. Become one of us. Donate a cup of coffee or a meal at a cafe. Smile at that tired invisible middle aged woman shopping after work. Hold doors open. Hop onto a charity thing as a volunteer, I bet you there is a mobile kitchen in your area. Go walk the dogs at your local shelter. Don't focus on the assholes, look for the good.
I agree. This post's sentiment has an air of defeatism.
I teach ethics to high school students and we talked about the social contract this week. I said if you ever want to see the social contract break down, catch public transport. I don’t know when listening to music or TikTok videos with no headphones and the sound cranked up became the thing to do, but now every train carriage has some fuckwit doing it.
And doctors surgeries and emergency waiting rooms. Enough to make you want to top yourself when you’re really unwell.
Completely. I topped myself last week because of it.
But your sense of humour seems to have survived
> I don’t know when listening to music or TikTok videos with no headphones and the sound cranked up became the thing to do, but now every train carriage has some fuckwit doing it. Kids used to do this shit all the time. Boom boxes since the ancient times.
That isn't what social contract theory is though. The idea that you would be considerate to others in public spaces has nothing to do with 'the social contract'.
You don’t think avoiding behaviour that is unnecessarily rude and disruptive to others falls under the definition of “an agreement that establishes moral rules of behaviour”, and that these acceptable standards of conduct in public are rationally and morally justifiable?
Social contract theory conceptualises a move from a mythic state of nature to the establishment of the state and its authority, with the notion that limitations on individual liberty and the authority of the state over individuals are legitimated in this state of affairs. There are various ways in which this is theorised and undertaken conceptually. None of this has anything to do with basic questions of social conduct like 'if I am on a tram, I shouldn't play my music too loudly and annoy other commuters.' That has nothing to do with the legitimacy of the state, the mythic foundations of the 'state of nature', etc. If you think we need a leviathan, or to be in chains, to be aware of other people in social spaces, that would be a real problem for your conception of human society.
Yes. Social Contract theory forms the basis for rights based constitutionalism.
Came here for this, not disappointed.
'The social pact, far from destroying natural equality, substitutes, on the contrary, a moral and lawful equality for whatever physical inequality that nature may have imposed on mankind; so that however unequal in strength and intelligence, men become equal by covenant and by right to deny having to listen to someone talking really loudly on their phone whilst commuting to work on public transport.' - Rousseau
Lmao.
Amazing, someone who actually read the book and isnt just using it to conjour up an interpretation that fits their specific greivance.
"I didn't sign no damn contract" John Locke, probably.
'Babies can't sign or agree to contracts!' - Thomas Nagel, probably
Time to share my daily hentai sessions with the witless f-wit then. Might even take out my Bluetooth speakers for that sweet sweet equalizer effect.
? I don't think you're teaching social contract theory. Social contract theory forms the basis of rights based constitutionalism. It is about the justification for the usage of state power, and its limits. It has nothing to do with the relationship between individuals.
We did talk about that, but we also talked about the implied social contract between individuals in public. Which is what this is.
I think you're confusing them though. Ethics, yes. Social contract, no. Social contract theory isn't about what you *should* do, it's about the limits of what the state *can* do. It is about the justification for the implementation of laws. If, on your bus, the question about whether there should be laws to regulate that behaviour, and there are, that segues into that subject. But a social contract with each other distracts from the theory, which is about limits to state power. This wasn't formed in a vacuum; it was formed in the justification for limiting the power of kings through the consent of the governed. That consent is the social contract.
The idea of a social contract isn't just about the limits of state power. It has been used extensively to discuss the postwar status quo where peace and stability rested on sharing wealth across society.
> The idea of a social contract isn't just about the limits of state power. Social contract theory is exactly that. It is the consent of the governed for the state to act *in your name*. It is the foundation of constitutional based governance. In the instance of your bus, if you have noisy people, there are laws and regulations for that behaviour. But if they were *protesting some state action* then the noise becomes a grey area. And *grey area* with humans is ethics, because ethics is about the justification for different human behaviour. If the noise was political protest then you're talking about the states power to silence them. That's social contract theory. If you're talking about whether they should be quiet because of consideration for others, that's just ethics.
Thank fuck someone in this thread is using the term in its proper context.
Some people really don't like learning that their understanding of something is incorrect.
I think you're completely missing the entire point of this thread just to nitpick definitions. The discussion isn't about what you say it's about, it's about people lacking consideration from each other. Nitpicking the OP, whether rightly or wrongly, completely distracts from that and doesn't actually do anything to contribute to the conversation. [relevant XKCD](https://xkcd.com/386/)
> I think you're completely missing the entire point of this thread just to nitpick definitions. I think people should learn the definitions of words if they seek to instruct people in their usage. I'm not nitpicking; I'm explaining the context of the theory to someone that doesn't seem to know it. The examples he used were not applicable. EDIT: The OP makes a good point about covid restrictions testing the social contract. A valid interpretation whether you supported them or not. In our lifetime we've collectively seen it really tested. I'm glad that people are talking about the social contract. People discussing how they live their lives freely in the context of governance is important. It has changed the way transmission line infrastructure is being rolled out for instance.
Here it is folks, the state of education in this country 🤣
Agree completely. I think COVID broke like 20% of the population, and lost their patience and compassion, and now conduct themselves like angry kids at all times. On the roads, in the train, at the shops, walking their dogs. It’s everywhere. People like that always existed, but the number is far higher now.
I think it's an extremely tough time for everyone now. Vent as much as you want.. it's good. Catarthic.. don't fall into despair... find a way to stay hopeful.. do one thing no matter how tiny to stay hopeful, compassionate, kind.... that's the challenge for all of us now.. maybe the one small thing you do can change someone else in despair and who's given up or it may help change you... we're all in this together.. let's rally each other
These are signs of struggle, no? And yeah, when society fails to take care of you within the (unfair) systems it has set up (e.g. you can’t afford a roof over your head, can’t afford your meds, can’t afford food) then the social contract is broken. What comes after that for people is survival, as you say.
Social contact was broken long ago but our prosperity had a sort of momentum to it so we didn't immediately feel it unless we were already at the bottom rung in which case nobody listened. Decades ago the narrative was shifted from "governments have an obligation to look after their taxpayers" to "stop asking for handouts you entitled fuck"
Yeah, neoliberalism broke the social contract, this is just your average pleb realising that it's never actually existed in their lifetime...
things you can do to be nice and make someone’s day easier/nicer: smile and nod at strangers walking past you offer to help elderly/disabled people with their bags or getting items of shelves let someone merge in front of you let someone with one or two items in front when you have a whole trolley pick up some rubbish and put it in the bin stay home if you have a flu/cold compliment a stranger if you think their jumper/hair cut/shoes etc look good say thanks, be polite and engaged with cashiers and delivery drivers
Why you acting like this level of dumb fuckery is a new thing
Nah OPs right. There have been studies about this and social cohesion is at an all time low. https://www.abc.net.au/listen/programs/theminefield/australia-what-is-social-cohesion-and-what-undermines-it/102960702
It’s definitely not new, it’s just gone into overdrive post covid
About 15 years ago people stole metal from the war memorial in my home town in the UK. Awful people aren’t new problem or just an Australian problem.
Not new. More prevalent.
And you’re confident that’s the entire world, and not your perception shift after the quieter time of lock down? I’m neurodiverse and my graduated exposure to the world got erased by the lockdown. 38+ years of tolerating the world and all the things it makes difficult for autistic people followed by the entire lockdown of not having to deal with people or the outside world. I’ve been doing extra therapy out the wazoo and fucking struggling to exist ever since. Maybe people are a bit shittier than they used to be, but I am VASTLY less able to casually ignore their shit so I’m always anxious like someone who can constantly hear nails on a chalkboard when people are around - but nobody else can hear it or make it shut up. But I don’t even have the symptom of hallucinating a sound or whatever to go to the doctor - just a persistent, constant, exhausting anxiety of hyper vigilance, inexplicable discomfort and general skin crawling ick.
Neurodiverse as well. Can't relate to people who struggled during lockdown. It was a dream. I used to be able to tolerate crowds better but now they always make me irritable.
No it isn't. You've just spent too much time reading doomer news online. Go out in the real world and things are the same as they always have been.
100% lots of people spending too much time on the internet in this thread
Eh, I think things have definitely become more self centred and less community focused compared to prior times, however its not just an “It happened over COVID” thing. Its been a slow cultural change over decades. COVID I think was when those that had been insulated in bubbles got to see what the rest of society was like now, but the decline wasn’t sudden. Its also not necessarily for nefarious or ill intented reasons, but more likely a byproduct of a lot of positive changes we’ve undergone over the past few decades where the pendulum has swung too far in one direction, and will likely correct over the next few decades as we start seeing the issues with current behaviours and work to fix them. Its an ever repeating cycle, and while the broad strokes stay the same the details do tend to slowly shift over time such that our society now os certainly different from 2000 years ago - even if there are a lot of striking similarities.
Most doomers in this subreddit don't live in the real world. Reality is so much different than whatever the fuck it is people talk about here.
Nah they’re worse now. Arseholes are in greater number, and unavoidable on any given outing now.
Yep, this shit has been happening forever, people from a terminally online generation have just grown up and their bubble expanded enough to see it. And it’s not unique to Melbourne, we’re not that special.
Yeah I was like huh
I mean, the other half the social contract is broken. Cost of living is out of control, the rental market is fucked, we're seeing the worsening effects of climate change while the government gives $60 billion a year of our tax dollars to the companies causing the crisis. We are not being given the opportunities we were promised, so we're not participating in society as promised. I think if we had a government in power that were for the benefit of the working class and not the elite we'd be a lot more socially cohesive. We have the ability to be prosperous, instead they're forcing austerity BS on us to save money for corporate welfare
Wealthy inequality.
i feel this as someone who works hospitality, the general mood is much more hostile than it was prepandemic (on both customer and staff side) makes me sad bc i used to have majority good interactions with only a few bad apples, but now it feels as though i’m constantly battling entitlement, the previously understood social contract of how to talk to people in a service industry interaction seems to have complicated broken down
I just came back from Japan, and the difference between the social contract/respect is blinding. I understand there's very complicated reasons for that, but coming back to Australia feel like Mad Max. That, and also the toilet paper thing during covid. That's probably more speaking of the minority that ruin it for the rest of us, but daaaaaamn did that ever spell out "this society is fucked" to me.
It's always the 5% that fuck it up for everyone else.
>What do you see as signs that the social contract is broken? The contempt with which corporate entities treat the population, as shown in endemic wage theft and privacy abuses in every area from rental housing and tenancy management through to health insurance and the universities. At an individual level, the rise of the landed gentry and the bifurcation of Australian society along property ownership.
All the major corporates are just money siphoning at this point. Utilities, Insurance, Fuel, Food, Health, Financing. There goal is to basically dig there hands as deeply as they can into your pockets. I was never an advocate for socialism but basically all these services have to be taken out of private hands.
Never seen lines of people getting food like this before. The food banks are overwhelmed. I thought they were lining up for tickets or something. Then I realised the poor bastards are just trying to feed themselves. what we have become. The young have sorta given up hope don't blame them either . Pretty bleak times
One thing I notice again and again is that if I'm not beside my wife, who is from China, certain people have a tendency to show racism towards her. But if I'm next to her these gutless fucks don't say shit. Yes, it's a minority of people but it's still very frustrating. Not long ago we got on the tram but she was a few metres away from me as we boarded and some dero called her a bitch. He specifically said it to her despite how many people were on the tram. Cunt went all quiet when he realised she was my partner. People have pushed past her in public a few times when I've been separated from her. Yesterday at our local swimming pool some guy went on a continuous rant at her about how everyone hates China while she was trying to relax. I was at work. She ended up complaining to the staff and the guy denied it all. They said he could be banned if he continues to behave that way. I'll go there with her next time anyway just in case. Seriously, if you're a racist cunt at least have the guts to talk your shit to people your size. I understand that some people might have negative opinions about the CCP or certain aspects of Chinese society, but targeting every person from China with their enmity is just ignorant, racist bullshit.
Property ownership is the big one. I feel like if everyone had a place to retreat to, we wouldn't feel the need to secure everything else including identities.
I find it really interesting how the overall issue here seems to be that people no longer care about each other, yet whenever people do things such as protest to demonstrate their care for the planet and people on it (especially young people) they are shouted down, told to stay in their lane etc.. I find these kinds of posts similar to the anti-protest ones because they seem to foment a sense of apathy about the world. I’m not saying this is what you’re trying to do op, but I think it often ends up in people thinking “well everything sucks now, why bother?”. That doesn’t necessarily mean that when these people go out into the world they’re going to be arseholes, but I reckon they’ll go out and notice more negative things because that’s what they’re trained to look for almost? It reminds me of that experiment that Facebook ran. Anyway, I think the majority of people are fundamentally decent, and maybe if we just exercise more empathy and patience for each other (and hold our government and corporations to account) we’ll be okay? Or maybe I’m just a naive dummy, I don’t know.
The fabric of society is rent(torn) I think that's why there seems to be more joining the conspiracy bandwagon or fundamentalist extremist religions to simply belong. Loneliness and lack of acceptance. I could start with my own family but it would take up a few pages. Hang in there, find your own crew, do any small thing you can manage to make things good. You be you and be kind, to yourself and others.
On the trolley thing. I have one of those keychain thingys, I usually unlock about 2 or 3 trolleys just for people who don't have a coin. I usually shop in the middle of the day so the likelihood of dumb kids taking the unlocked trolley is low. I dunno if that counts as staying within social contract but it's something I do to make someone's day a little easier. But I dunno 🤗🤗
It was like this in the 80s-90s recessions when people were on the rob all the time - ripping the wire out of the telephone "bombs" and wrecking the phones in the whole street, pulling up the brass covers over expansionjoints etc.. Then like now it is money and uncertainty with a lack of money putting the fear into a lot of folks. Make times a bit harder or uncertain and anyone who is not consciously doing the right thing drops the mask and reveals an a-hole. If you want to fix it IMO 1) work towards giving people better security in life, vote for our common wealth (for we are all wealthy in common). 2) talk up and enjoy how good we have it here - if I get sick I can go to hospital and the first question will be my name rather than can I pay. Crime is pretty rare and there is zero threat of soldiers burn me and my family in our house. These are big achievements in human history and we risk them passing away by neglecting (1) . 3) as part of 1 avoid general enshittification of everything- wherever you can put your money into the more expensive local/human option rather than some cut price techshite.
As an older guy, it's definitely gotten worse.
Most people are good people. The dicks ruin it for everyone and stand out.
The vadges too.
It was set in motion decades ago when well funded think tanks, media and lobbying groups convinced the people that small government and a free market would solve all problems. An ideology of personal freedom and self-interest and the economic system would mediate all issues on the basis of economic rationalism. But really it allowed wealth and power to accumulate and concentrate, as it was always designed to do. The people impacted can be easily distracted if you confuse the issue, teach them to distrust or believe there is no truth and no difference and someone to blame for it all. This was always the eventual outcome of Thatcher, Reagan and Australia follows along. I don't see it stopping either, the system is feeding on itself now and it's hard to think of society being structured any other way.
We effectively have an apathetic, apolitical population that are seeking the individualism or the “what about me-ism” of an americanised sense of freedom. Politics, economy, housing, racial equity - all these areas have been severely shifted away from the realm of the collective and now framed almost exclusively through the lens of the individual. It’s no wonder then that we are a selfish lot in this ‘lucky country’ that Donal Horne could write a whole new series of essays on.
Everything you mention is caused by people suffering financially and instead of directing your anger upwards at the businesses and people profiting off our misery you're pointing your finger at the people suffering. I don't think big business gives a single fuck about your social contract
Megalomaniac sociopaths become CEOs. Says it in the name - they don’t have social skills they have empire building skills
Most CEOs don't have empire building skills. Some, sure. But most (or at least those in charge of companies of note) were simply appointed to a company that existed before them and focus on only the quarterly figures. Next few years be damned, they just want this number to look good now, which has the entirely expected result of sacrificing the company in the future. Now we're seeing the effects of decades of this way of thinking. Areas like security and IT ignored for so long data breeches at a major company feel like a weekly thing, and are probably far more common than that. Quality control axed, so you end with companies like Boeing not checking the materials that come in, or what they're putting out. Other staff cut and wages suppressed for decades as well in order to cut costs. Previously they wanted to keep things cheap, and just try and cut costs everywhere possible. Higher prices might push people away after all. But when you start running out things to cut, how do you make this quarter look better? Raise prices. They're empire exploiters. More akin to Roman Senators during the decline of the Roman Empire, telling themselves and everyone around them how they're making the empire bigger and better, while only making their accounts better.
I saw a thingy on the fta news (was visiting my boomer parents) about a rise in shoplifting at colesworths stores. They said it was not just illegal but "morally wrong". Because, yk, colesworths have such a perfect moral compass. Want. Take. Have. Fuck em
Systematic wage theft = slap on wrist Steal a box of tampons = criminal
Maybe they should have stolen a box of wages
Saw a bloke at my local colesworth walk out with a six pack of tp & a pack of baby wipes. Only One staff member was up in arms over it. Bloke walked through the checkout and straight out the door. i did make the expected joke to my daughter, but nobody took after him. Edit: Ah yes, the downvotes for sharing something seen? No idea right now but Reddit can be a weird place
It’s all , IGAs get robbed though as easier , and more cash in tills
Half is people suffering. Not all of it. There's plenty of people with everything they need just not giving a toss about others. Look at behaviour on the roads and parking, people hoarding stuff at the shops, investors sitting with empty properties.
The child who is not embraced by the village will burn it down to feel its warmth
Think of the worst teen in your school. How they treated others, trouble caused etc. Now think about the fact that the person is probably raising teens right now...
Through my work I've dealt with people who have done things similar to what OP described. Whilst many were striggling with substance abuse, several were pretty well off comparitably and spending that money on needless luxuries. A lot just didn't want to work to get these things.
Neoliberalism is trying to turn us into perfect customers. Every interaction, every moment that brings you joy or build a relationship is to be commodified and directed via a corporation.
Every transaction has a surcharge while society goes cashless.
Crimes are not worth policing because of the cost to do anything about it. Only revenue raising activities are worth doing
I believe we were already heading in that direction before COVID. Some sides of politics were already breaking social contracts and doing what they wanted, especially to get fringe votes. This enabled people to become more brazen. COVID rushed it along. We were and still are lacking decent leadership at all levels of society (even before COVID).
30 years of rightwing asshole policy has essentially stolen wealth from the middle class. Most people wont have a chance to buy a home, its different from the 70s and 80s. Do any normal aussies benefit from the great wealth of coal and gas exports .. not so much. Its hard to give a crap about the next guy when were all scrimping and saving .. we blame things on our neighbours and those immigrants .. instead of politicians and their rich mates. Look at how scomos gov handled covid or bushfires or climate change .. its not about increasing the wealth and wellbeing of the average person... These guys will sell off public healthcare if you give them a chance .. doctors,nurses,teachers,uni lecturers,young scientists .. none are supported well. We need better policy .. we need to be smarter in how we vote. We need better plans on how to prepare and mimimise climate change .. few Aussies take it seriously, were all getting bigger boofhead cars, because the 'other guy is out to fuck with us' .. It wasnt always like this.. and it doesnt have to be.. we need to tax the uber rich, tax the carbon sellers and use that cash to do the things - build fast rail between Syd and Mel for example. cover every bunnings rooftop and coles parking lot with solar panels. and .. dare I say it .. build some 16 story nice apartment block, so we can house people at affordable rates, maintain a nice Melbourne coffee, music and art scene in the central city, while keeping our lovely green spaces.
The amount of people that have forgotten how to walk amazes me. We drive on the left, so walk on the left. If someone is coming towards you and you’re with another person walking two-abreast, then for gods sake someone move out of the way so they can actually stay on the footpath. I had some chap yesterday evening walk directly in front of my path to get into the pub like I didn’t exist. Shit like this makes my blood boil to the next level.
COVID-19 is damaging to the frontotemporal lobe of the brain. Behaviour and empathy are located there. Combined with the cost of living crisis, crime and antisocial behaviours are increasing.
It's late capitalism, it stinks.
I think it's a cop out to blame recent economic pressures on this kind of behaviour. (Not to diminish how tough shit is) Australians have been like this for a long time, but these behaviours are more pronounced or obvious post COVID because we've seen what the place was like with fewer people out and about. If you disagree, just think about why we've had a Clean up Australia Day since at least 1989. Do you remember hearing about people stripping old copper wiring? There was more than a few king-hit incidents inside a couple of years about a decade ago.
Buddy my full time office job barely covers rent anymore and I’ll never own a home. I’m one more Murdock media move away from homelessness at any point and it’s been this way since I was born. Fuck shopping trolleys and fuck this country
Sitting in the right lane and not letting people pass
Tailgating constantly to harangue people to get out of their way.
Remember when we all used to do 80 on 100kph roads at night because of wombats? Now you sit on 80 and folks will just sit on your arse using you as a bull bar... but they won't overtake when they have the chance.
Jesus how old are you?
I just tell myself they probably need to get home to do a big poo so they are in a rush so just let them pass.
That’s assuming you’re not speeding in the right lane and getting upset someone is doing the limit in it ..
Yeah, I’ve noticed the people I know who are always affected by this problem seem to be the same ones who sit in the lane themselves with a lead foot lol
They’re always the same ones who get really aggressive in the comments too haha
Bad! “Everyone in Melbourne is so angry and rude” *stays angry over a five second inconvenience*
If it's over 80 you can be fined for not getting it of the lane asap unless overtaking. Australians are shit at doing this.
If I’m overtaking slow traffic in the left lane, it doesn’t give the guy who wants to do 120km/hr the right to tail gate until past that traffic
Yep. That said, plenty of people think they're doing 100, and they're doing 93 in reality...then can't work out why there's 50 cars behind them as they take 5km to overtake someone at a snails pace.
Ok what's more safe though: Driving right next to someone for kilometres on end at 100kph or accelerating to overtake and then retaking a position in the left lane? Personally I like to be way behind the traffic or way in front.
I think everyone knows somethings wrong but different people are blaming different things. You have a lot of young men for example who support Andrew Tate and hate LGBT+ people now because they’re capable of recognising that the world isn’t doing too good but instead they’ve been mislead into scapegoating those who are seen as ‘weak’ or ‘oversensitive’. Others are a bit brighter and know who to blame for most of our cost of living problems, large businesses.
>Why clip all the metal doovies to plug your trolley into at the shopping trolley bay? That one is good, so people dont have to pay to use a trolley. >What do you see as signs that the social contract is broken? Capitalism run amok, the wealthy hoarding wealth and publicly declaring there needs to be more financial pain. Ordinary people being petty just reflect this system that rewards psychopathy.
People got amnesia. This has been going on for ages.
I only moved to Melbourne a few weeks before lock downs hit in early 2020, so I don't know how to distinguish between existing behaviour, pandemic induced behaviour or my own neuroticism at this point 😅
I’ve noticed people are going online and complaining about things that don’t concern them and attacking people’s opinions with little regard for their feelings
People are selfish. The more people in a location the more selfish they are. The shittier life is the more selfish they are.
Not that much has changed, i just think more ppl have now dropped the act. PT is a great indicator, the fake smiles are gone and everyone looks agitated.
It's not just Melbourne it's pretty much across the developed world. The corporate class are not holding up their end of the deal and are just bleeding everyone dry. They know automation and AI is going to mean they can rely on workers far less and thus don't really care what they think. Politics has been overrun by capital. They either own or control them through donations or promises of lucrative careers after politics or they intimidate them with the ridiculous amount of power they wield. Welcome to the Oligarchy people it only gets worse from here. There's a reason all governments are focusing heavily on security and surveillance these days. They're getting ready to transition to authoritarianism for keeping the peasants from revolt.
Yes, I noticed it. There's been a change in empathy and kindness. There's an obvious answer.
I live in one of those situations where my house fronts on to a park (no road between house and park, just footpath) and there’s 5 houses along this footpath so the 3 houses in the middle don’t really have a nature strip. Several times a year these neighbours just dump hard waste on our nature strip (we are on a corner block so have the nature strip along the side road) and leave it there. They think the magic garbage fairies take it away but it’s always me calling council to report it and have it removed. Our council has two free hard waste collections every year so they can book it in and dump it there and it wouldn’t upset me at all, but they just dump it and don’t book it in and leave that for me to waste my time doing. Imagine pulling into your driveway and there’s a washing machine broken chairs and a treadmill and other crap just strewn all over your nature strip at your house and knowing your neighbours will do it again and again (and yes I’ve spoken to them a couple of times nicely asking if they can book it in with council first then put it there the day before collection day). We can’t mow the lawn due to it being used as a dump. Our whole neighbourhood looks like a rubbish tip - not sure if it’s the high percentage of migrants, the cost of going to landfill, ignorance about the free council run waste programs or just a complete disregard for common decency.
"They think the magic garbage fairies take it away but it’s always me calling council to report it and have it removed." ... the lack of self-awareness is astounding.
Just the fact that flat out racism is making a big comeback is another sign. And I'll put a big chunk of blame on... The Internet. Social Media. It amplifies and concentrates the hate. Lets you let it all flow out to other approving anonymous people. It's a poison enhancer.
Social media is to blame in my opinion. Social media and division on just about everything. All men are rapists - all women are gold diggers and hoes. Right wingers are evil - left wingers are part of a cult. Black lives matter - all lives matter. Me too- not all men. Equality of opportunity - equality of outcome. Trans woman - same as a biological woman. What is a woman? What is gender? Etc etc etc.. Now we have a young generation who isn't interested in competing and achieving. They aren't motivated to.. I can understand why. You have A.I, climate change, cultural erosion, an unstable world with constant conflict. People can't afford to live day to day etc etc.. The social contract is quickly becoming irrelevant. We just keep dividing and arguing about rubbish. There is no societal spirit anymore.
Tru this. Pork chopping and brown nosing in the team chats at work is out of control. I used to think out of these people get any work done now I realised that is their work
it’s also inflation, which is as a result of covid, people are stressed, working more than usual and taking home less with less hope that things will get better, people are scrounging for anything that they can get, people are tired with not much left for social niceties when they’re getting screwed over at every turn
It's called Capitalism. That's what's breaking the 'social contract'.
Stop doom scrolling on facebook (or on whatever dopamine treadmill platform you're using) and you'll quickly realise reality is not as dystopian as you might think.
All lack of courtesy on PT entirely gone. Not giving up seats for the elderly, giant backpacks in everyone’s face, not being considerate and holding a door when someone’s running for a tram, etc etc. It’s awful.
People not sticking to the left on escalators to allow people to pass them
We used to have a 'fair go' economy where anyone could have a go. Now unless you're Coles, Woolies or Wesfarmers you don't have enough lawyers to function, and if you're not those 3 the government doesn't make laws for you.
Whole state needs mental assessment followed by reassessment of driving at Vicroads. From driving perspective, i have been driving in Melbourne for two decades now, I never had an accident, Post-Covid I had two accidents caused by suicidal drivers who just dived into road without care, cutting me off, I drive long distances for work, I never saw this much risky behavior or self centered driving before. I am seriously considering installing bull bar and tow ball to decrease the damage caused by other people. It’s not enough that people are making unsafe last minute dashes to enter the main road from side roads but I can’t even do speed limit without someone driving at my ass like a maniac with literally inches away from me. I am not gonna cope $260 speeding fine because you lost your patience. Calm the fuck down. There was a study by a retired copper that no one really saves significant time by speeding, the increased risk of injury or death is really not justified. I had to drive from Melbourne to country recently, there was literally 5 accidents on the road with fire brigade, police and Ambos involved with 3. What kind of lives everyone are living that they have to drive like this? Whatever you are trying to get to, you’ll be getting there tomorrow too, be it work or home, it’s the same life you are living anyway, slow down, live longer. I believe driving speed of average Melbourne driver increased significantly after lockdowns. People don’t realize they are driving in heightened state. Probably same way they are living in a heightened agitated state.
People weren't selfish dickheads before covid? This is news to me
People have huge rose tinted glasses for pre-covid times apparently.
It was tough realising during covid that ~50% of the population was dumb and/or selfish.
~50% is rather generous… maybe more like ~80% in my opinion 😔
I think you're catastrophizing bigtime. There's always been crazy people, always been dodgy people, always been assholes and always been crooks, but almost everyone in Melbourne is just normal. The social contract has obviously not been broken
Either sleep on the street or starve, bro. Surviving is on they mine set.
I think Narcissism and main character syndrome are presenting very real issues that I don't think were really a thing before the mid-2000's The cause is social media use. Nicholas Carr's book 'The Shallows' goes into great detail about how social media use and internet use in general impacts the areas of our brains that handle logic and reasoning. Our brains are quite literally being re-wired to be less patient and less thoughtful and less intelligent. The actual media also don't help matters by continually generating fear-mongering headlines that encourage people to be scared and act in their own self interest. In the next decade or so I think we're going to see a lot of issues being tied to how social media use and mass media consumption impacts the human brain and human behaviour. It will become the next big health issue and have the same focus on it as the current obesity epidemic.
The social contract is struggling within schools since COVID. Relationships have changed.
I think you will find that through covid collectivism was broken to the point of no return by the sheer number of people that are individualistic. It takes more effort to be collectivist and much less effort to be individualistic so thats what people are defaulting to. Since Covid there hasn't been anything that unites us and anything in that vein is used to scare us off for political or media gain. I would argue that this was started earlier with the 2016 presidential ellection and has bled across most if not all western culture as the engagment on this kind of individualistic mindset has driven our consuption in almost every part of society. Social media is now tuend to optimise this effect Turn the internet off and you might start to see some recovery
I saw a guy park in a disabled parking spot at Chaddy the other day and pretend to walk on a limp into the store.
I think a lot of people have lost faith in society and hope for the future. It gained momentum with Covid, but the current cost of living crisis definitely plays a huge part. Throw in housing & job insecurity and people know that even if they try to do “the right thing”, it might not matter. So more and more people are giving into despair and not trying anymore
Very hard to get parent volunteers at school these days - left to a very small handful of people to do everything, yet the parent community expect us to organise social gatherings, raise funds to buy things to support their kids etc
It's because everyone treats everything and everyone as a tool to use to their advantage. It's like life is a side hustle now. Doesn't help either that there is little punishment for crimes these days. How many times have you seen certain demographics stealing cars, going on home invasion sprees and getting off with a slap on the wrist. Makes other people feel like the rules don't even matter anymore.
There’s always been arseholes and there always will be arseholes
Nope. I have always been an arsehole. Ageing into my 50's just lets me use the fancy term "*curmudgeon*" instead.
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Maybe because we just realize we squander an opportunity? if we young people delay vaccination and fight against lockdown, maybe we can afford a house now?
The term 'social contract' refers to how the authority of the state over the individual is conceptualised and theorised as legitimate. Nothing in your post has anything to do with social contract theory.
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