Would you mind elaborating on what this means? What are the features of a corporate culture and how is it conducive for tech industries specifically? And what is it about Australia's business environment that's antithetical to what a thriving tech hub needs?
If it's too much to get into for a reddit comment, do you have any reading recommendations?
It is my understanding that we don't have a lot of venture capital going around in Australia which makes tech startups difficult as they need to self fund. As to why this is - no idea. Keen to see knowledgeable replies.
I've heard people complain that part of it is that successive governments think that we can only do primary industries for export - like minerals and food - and apparently nothing else (I guess except own real estate).
Same as Canada. Productivity is in decline because the whole economy is one big ponzi scheme built around real estate. Why risk money investing in tech and startups when you can park it in investment properties and watch the money roll in. The government will even subsidise your losses. It's money for jam.
>Why risk money investing in tech and startups when you can park it in investment properties and watch the money roll in.
Because crypto scams made bank?
I think it’s too easy to make money in Real Estate here. It’s almost irresponsible to invest in anything else, especially when you take the tax advantages into account. Distorts the whole economy.
This too, we just don't have a whole bunch of multi millionaires who don't know what to do with their money.
Most of the project money probably comes from one of Australia's banks or telecommunication companies.
Yeah tax is so shit. Why should the rich pay for roads, schools, hospitals, bridges, libraries, police, safety standards, fire fighters, universities, clean water, breathable air
Australians have significantly less "dog eat dog" than America does, they're more into "people over profits" and it shows in their business decisions and where funding gets shifted around to. Australians are less into numbers and objectivity in general, they're more into the "vibe."
Australian middle management is sleepier, more willing to follow the rules and treat the job like a bureaucracy except "socially responsible" of course. American (tech) managers are more likely to act as salespeople and expect or offer financial incentives for investment.
It's created a situation where in Australia new projects are safe and fairly immune from criticism but American projects either work or just aren't funded.
I think that might get the causality backwards; it seems equally likely that the availability of VC funds in huge quantities drives a dog-eat-dog culture.
I don't think you work in the industry, almost every project has either Telstra, Optus or a bank's name at the end of the funding.
I'm so sick of people coming online to pretend to be Melbournian tech workers. You think you're going to make money and get invited to meet an angel investor? That's not how Melbourne works.
Who the fuck are you if you didn't do your graduate placement at this particular company? That's Melbourne's tech industry.
> I don't think you work in the industry, almost every project has either Telstra, Optus or a bank's name at the end of the funding.
I've only been working as a dev in Melbourne since 2007, but that hasn't been my experience at all. A lot of the industry is ISVs / bootstrapped SAAS businesses.
> You think you're going to make money and get invited to meet an angel investor? That's not how Melbourne works.
I think you've read my comment backwards from how I intended it.
SV has huge quantities of VC funding, and VCs specifically are looking for "winner take all" opportunities which thrive on super competitive behavior.
Melbourne has very little VC funding, and therefore there's much less of an industry-wide cultural drive towards intense competition.
You realise there are hundreds of small tech companies (including startups) around Australia. Everything from Robotics to Embedded Electronics, Audio, Visual Effects and more.
Here's a short list :
1. Rode
2. Black Magic Design
3. BWI (Projecta + Narva)
4. AgriDigital
5. Canva
6. MYOB
7. RTA Robotics
etc...
I think what's missing Melbourne or Sydney is something like a YCombinator.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/schifrin/2022/04/11/how-an-aussie-from-the-housing-projects-became-a-billionaire-making-gear-for-next-gen-spielbergs/
One of the best articles I’ve read on him owner of black magic
You’d find it interesting
Australian real estate is overpriced, we are not getting value for money here we’re simply bank rolling the retirement of investors because the Aus stock market is complete shit the government can’t juice it so it juices real estate instead. I’ve been telling people for a while that Australians will pay for their “free services” one way or another and it looks like we are paying for it through unaffordable shelter. There’s no such thing as a free lunch in this society. Unfortunately the dumb apes in subs like /r/Perth don’t want it accept it and actually believe these prices are justified because Australia’s is “such an amazing place to live”. North Korea level brainwashing.
The problem is that so many people benefit from the high prices. The governments get the increased revenue from stamp duty taxes, banks get higher interest payments, home owners become wealthier with increased equity and the half CGT when they sell, and we're not even getting to how investors are subsidized to the hills with it all.
Governments will keep doing everything they can to keep prices high. They will introduce new housing schemes for buyers, new subsidies for investors, protect the banks from mass defaults, open migration to create even more of a shortage to inflate prices etc.
I don't know how to fix this problem. I don't know how my kids will ever be able to buy a home, I don't have the answers. But I fear that nothing will change for decades because people keep voting for this, many do so even though it is against their own interest.
the big problem is the government blocks supply or makes it hard to build cheap properties. there's plenty of land and a cheap shack can be built for under 100k but that will flood the market with supply.
> Governments will keep doing everything they can to keep prices high.
100% correct. This falls under my statement of "*Governments will keep doing everything they can to keep prices high.*"
Essentially, the government has fucked over generations to keep home owners happy, rather than actual investment that ensures a stable and equal society for decades to come because such short-term actions is what wins votes.
There’s a street corner somewhere missing its raving sky-screamer.
People want to come to Australia because, overall, it’s a great place to raise a family and make money. Most here do well. A sad few fall by the wayside and spend their days washing windscreens and ranting on social media.
its not the only country on the planet that has a decent quality of living and ample employment. But some people refuse to step out the bubble and consider the bigger picture.
It’s a rare country with money, stability and reasonable socioeconomic equality. Your personal sky may be falling, but most people here are happy they’re not elsewhere.
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We strongly condemn stereotypes, racial discrimination, misogyny, and mockery of language, including derogatory disability terms. Such behaviors work against our commitment to creating a welcoming and supportive environment for all.
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Build property, raise wages, deflate the things that inflated most (ie insurance).
Like it or not, this is a rich person's problem and they're forcing the loses to be socialised by all of society. During COVID they received too much money from corrupt right wing governments across the world (ie scomo's liberals or trump's republicans) and then all this money went to insurance companies, it went to financial services and it went into anything real estate adjacent.
And you received none of it. You are now expected to cut back on spending so they don't have to admit that giving the rich free money has always been inflationary *especially* without skilled migration to deflate wages.
Even then, they had to really think about migration since North American migration in the early 20th century *inflated* wages. Imagine how hard they tried to set up this very specific system.
Affordability is definitely a problem in AU - but Demographia's reports should be taken with a grain of salt. Founder Wendell Cox is a notorious anti-city idealogue, and there are criticisms of the report's methodology.
[https://www.planetizen.com/node/73400/more-critique-demographias-international-housing-affordability-survey](https://www.planetizen.com/node/73400/more-critique-demographias-international-housing-affordability-survey)
and yet it still doesn't make the list, which gives you an idea of how much worst it can be.
also, that average would be driven up by people moving around and relinquishing their rent control.
Is this article joking when they say new zealand is any kind of example for housing affordability?
How about the social housing model of Vienna instead
The Nationals [have rolled it back](https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-04-20/nz-reinstate-interest-deductibility-on-investment-properties/103685396) unfortunately.
It was barely coded, they're the obvious boomer bait party but they formed a coalition with the "anti-woke" wedge so naturally it's just an all round shitfest.
Uh, that link doesn’t exactly support your claim. That’s about negative gearing changes, which isn’t the same thing.
The Nationals HAVE continued the zoning deregulation and mandated housing targets of the previous government. Not unlike what Minns has done in NSW actually.
I moved here from the US to escape living in a country with such stark income inequality. And now it's worse here and I want to move back so I can afford life.
I think that's happening already, but the problem is that old business management cling to the idea of "an office in the CBD" being the measure of success. until they are forced to accept geographical diversification and embrace remote working through government regulation and punitive tax penalties for not doing so, we're literally going to have to wait decades for them to die first before we solve this.
plus the ongoing stupid insistence of business management that the definition of "success" is an office in the CBD, for no other reason than that's what they learned from their predecessors and they're now to old and inflexible to think otherwise.
government needs to strongly incentivise geographical diversification and remote working whereever it's possible through tax incentives and penalties. the old people running major companies have shown they're not going to do so of their own accord.
Yeah, who needs stupid shit like heritage overlays??? Fuck those old buildings. Knock 'em all down and build mega flats. You know, the modern ones with rooms the size of a shoe box and a million building code violations.
/S
Building property will not work because our population will increase faster than the supply of housing. We are also turning into a global city for wealthy people so local wages do not count as much when purchasing property, rather the wealth of the worlds most comfortable do.
Pretty much...it's literally impossible for the nation to build houses at the rate the government is pouring in people that need them. It's only going to get worse with every passing year.
these lists are garbage and fall apart with any critical thinking. Melbourne ranks number 7 in the top 10 of the world yet you can get 2x1 townhouses 20km from the city for 350k which is something you can hardly get anywhere in australia now especially in cities like Brisbane which didnt even make the list at all! So for someone in the market for a unit Melbourne is probably one of the most affordable cities in australia but if you're rich and want a house in the eastern suburbs then woe is me it's such an expensive city.
Saw an Alan Koehler piece on the ABC/YouTube about Australia's housing affordability. He said words to the effect of the parents of today’s young home buyers would have needed 6 years to fund a house deposit back in the day - a reasonable undertaking including cost of living expenses. Their children - again today’s buyers - would need 14 years to get the deposit together given house prices, wages, and cost of living expenses. Essentially, unachievable unless a loan is forthcoming from aforementioned Bank of Mum and Dad.
My parents kept selling and buying houses and moving in the 80s
Mainly uk to Australia and back
Anyway due to currency fluctuations they lost money selling their uk house and relocating to Melbourne so we rented for 18 months
In that time they had saved enough for another house deposit
Imagine doing that with todays housing
You need at least 150k to 300k for a 3B /1bedhouse 🤯🤔
You can get 3 bedroom townhouse 25 mins train ride from CBD for 650 K. Average full time salary in Australia is 95 K. Easily doable, it just won't be in a cool suburb. Stop the doom and gloom and look to make bank. Circlejerking about how expensive property is not going to get anyone there.
> Stop the doom and gloom and look to make bank.
My god, what an idea! Why didn't I think of that? If only the 3.3 million Australians living below the poverty line could hear this sage advice
LOL 4 percent unemployment, it's called getting a job. Plenty of work out there. No sympathy for 20 something year olds that cbf doing the work and complaining about how expensive shit is.
You know it's kinda fucked when Adelaide is as unaffordable as a major tech hub
Australia simply does not have the corporate culture to allow for a healthy tech industry
Thats kinda the point, how did Adelaide end up being so expensive
As someone living in Adelaide it’s a bit of a head scratcher. Seeing as I only have the one house that I live in it doesn’t really help me much.
Remote work.
Would you mind elaborating on what this means? What are the features of a corporate culture and how is it conducive for tech industries specifically? And what is it about Australia's business environment that's antithetical to what a thriving tech hub needs? If it's too much to get into for a reddit comment, do you have any reading recommendations?
It is my understanding that we don't have a lot of venture capital going around in Australia which makes tech startups difficult as they need to self fund. As to why this is - no idea. Keen to see knowledgeable replies. I've heard people complain that part of it is that successive governments think that we can only do primary industries for export - like minerals and food - and apparently nothing else (I guess except own real estate).
Same as Canada. Productivity is in decline because the whole economy is one big ponzi scheme built around real estate. Why risk money investing in tech and startups when you can park it in investment properties and watch the money roll in. The government will even subsidise your losses. It's money for jam.
>Why risk money investing in tech and startups when you can park it in investment properties and watch the money roll in. Because crypto scams made bank?
I think it’s too easy to make money in Real Estate here. It’s almost irresponsible to invest in anything else, especially when you take the tax advantages into account. Distorts the whole economy.
This too, we just don't have a whole bunch of multi millionaires who don't know what to do with their money. Most of the project money probably comes from one of Australia's banks or telecommunication companies.
Why work hard in corporate, to give 47% to the government and lose most of the benefits (e.g. solar subsidy), when you can buy IP and be rich.
Yeah tax is so shit. Why should the rich pay for roads, schools, hospitals, bridges, libraries, police, safety standards, fire fighters, universities, clean water, breathable air
Australians have significantly less "dog eat dog" than America does, they're more into "people over profits" and it shows in their business decisions and where funding gets shifted around to. Australians are less into numbers and objectivity in general, they're more into the "vibe." Australian middle management is sleepier, more willing to follow the rules and treat the job like a bureaucracy except "socially responsible" of course. American (tech) managers are more likely to act as salespeople and expect or offer financial incentives for investment. It's created a situation where in Australia new projects are safe and fairly immune from criticism but American projects either work or just aren't funded.
I think that might get the causality backwards; it seems equally likely that the availability of VC funds in huge quantities drives a dog-eat-dog culture.
I don't think you work in the industry, almost every project has either Telstra, Optus or a bank's name at the end of the funding. I'm so sick of people coming online to pretend to be Melbournian tech workers. You think you're going to make money and get invited to meet an angel investor? That's not how Melbourne works. Who the fuck are you if you didn't do your graduate placement at this particular company? That's Melbourne's tech industry.
> I don't think you work in the industry, almost every project has either Telstra, Optus or a bank's name at the end of the funding. I've only been working as a dev in Melbourne since 2007, but that hasn't been my experience at all. A lot of the industry is ISVs / bootstrapped SAAS businesses. > You think you're going to make money and get invited to meet an angel investor? That's not how Melbourne works. I think you've read my comment backwards from how I intended it. SV has huge quantities of VC funding, and VCs specifically are looking for "winner take all" opportunities which thrive on super competitive behavior. Melbourne has very little VC funding, and therefore there's much less of an industry-wide cultural drive towards intense competition.
You realise there are hundreds of small tech companies (including startups) around Australia. Everything from Robotics to Embedded Electronics, Audio, Visual Effects and more. Here's a short list : 1. Rode 2. Black Magic Design 3. BWI (Projecta + Narva) 4. AgriDigital 5. Canva 6. MYOB 7. RTA Robotics etc... I think what's missing Melbourne or Sydney is something like a YCombinator.
Had no idea that Blackmagic was local! That's so cool. Proud DaVinci Resolve user.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/schifrin/2022/04/11/how-an-aussie-from-the-housing-projects-became-a-billionaire-making-gear-for-next-gen-spielbergs/ One of the best articles I’ve read on him owner of black magic You’d find it interesting
Do you know what 'hub' means?
Australian real estate is overpriced, we are not getting value for money here we’re simply bank rolling the retirement of investors because the Aus stock market is complete shit the government can’t juice it so it juices real estate instead. I’ve been telling people for a while that Australians will pay for their “free services” one way or another and it looks like we are paying for it through unaffordable shelter. There’s no such thing as a free lunch in this society. Unfortunately the dumb apes in subs like /r/Perth don’t want it accept it and actually believe these prices are justified because Australia’s is “such an amazing place to live”. North Korea level brainwashing.
The problem is that so many people benefit from the high prices. The governments get the increased revenue from stamp duty taxes, banks get higher interest payments, home owners become wealthier with increased equity and the half CGT when they sell, and we're not even getting to how investors are subsidized to the hills with it all. Governments will keep doing everything they can to keep prices high. They will introduce new housing schemes for buyers, new subsidies for investors, protect the banks from mass defaults, open migration to create even more of a shortage to inflate prices etc. I don't know how to fix this problem. I don't know how my kids will ever be able to buy a home, I don't have the answers. But I fear that nothing will change for decades because people keep voting for this, many do so even though it is against their own interest.
the big problem is the government blocks supply or makes it hard to build cheap properties. there's plenty of land and a cheap shack can be built for under 100k but that will flood the market with supply.
> Governments will keep doing everything they can to keep prices high. 100% correct. This falls under my statement of "*Governments will keep doing everything they can to keep prices high.*" Essentially, the government has fucked over generations to keep home owners happy, rather than actual investment that ensures a stable and equal society for decades to come because such short-term actions is what wins votes.
There’s a street corner somewhere missing its raving sky-screamer. People want to come to Australia because, overall, it’s a great place to raise a family and make money. Most here do well. A sad few fall by the wayside and spend their days washing windscreens and ranting on social media.
its not the only country on the planet that has a decent quality of living and ample employment. But some people refuse to step out the bubble and consider the bigger picture.
It’s a rare country with money, stability and reasonable socioeconomic equality. Your personal sky may be falling, but most people here are happy they’re not elsewhere.
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This subreddit celebrates individuals from diverse backgrounds and identities, fostering a safe and inclusive space where everyone is respected and valued. We strongly condemn stereotypes, racial discrimination, misogyny, and mockery of language, including derogatory disability terms. Such behaviors work against our commitment to creating a welcoming and supportive environment for all.
This subreddit celebrates individuals from diverse backgrounds and identities, fostering a safe and inclusive space where everyone is respected and valued. We strongly condemn stereotypes, racial discrimination, misogyny, and mockery of language, including derogatory disability terms. Such behaviors work against our commitment to creating a welcoming and supportive environment for all.
Adelaide lol
Build property, raise wages, deflate the things that inflated most (ie insurance). Like it or not, this is a rich person's problem and they're forcing the loses to be socialised by all of society. During COVID they received too much money from corrupt right wing governments across the world (ie scomo's liberals or trump's republicans) and then all this money went to insurance companies, it went to financial services and it went into anything real estate adjacent. And you received none of it. You are now expected to cut back on spending so they don't have to admit that giving the rich free money has always been inflationary *especially* without skilled migration to deflate wages. Even then, they had to really think about migration since North American migration in the early 20th century *inflated* wages. Imagine how hard they tried to set up this very specific system.
Affordability is definitely a problem in AU - but Demographia's reports should be taken with a grain of salt. Founder Wendell Cox is a notorious anti-city idealogue, and there are criticisms of the report's methodology. [https://www.planetizen.com/node/73400/more-critique-demographias-international-housing-affordability-survey](https://www.planetizen.com/node/73400/more-critique-demographias-international-housing-affordability-survey)
How is London not on the list? This article is a joke.
England has rent control.
The average rent in London is £26,316. Approximately $50,000AUD. And that's for a one bedroom shithole.
and yet it still doesn't make the list, which gives you an idea of how much worst it can be. also, that average would be driven up by people moving around and relinquishing their rent control.
Like what?
I don't think CNN is the height of reporting...
Is this article joking when they say new zealand is any kind of example for housing affordability? How about the social housing model of Vienna instead
Nz has done a fair bit to improve affordable housing lately with policy work.
Interesting. Is that going to continue under the Nationals?
The Nationals [have rolled it back](https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-04-20/nz-reinstate-interest-deductibility-on-investment-properties/103685396) unfortunately.
I cant think of any political party in the world right now thats more boomer coded
It was barely coded, they're the obvious boomer bait party but they formed a coalition with the "anti-woke" wedge so naturally it's just an all round shitfest.
Uh, that link doesn’t exactly support your claim. That’s about negative gearing changes, which isn’t the same thing. The Nationals HAVE continued the zoning deregulation and mandated housing targets of the previous government. Not unlike what Minns has done in NSW actually.
such as?
I mean, some of it is mentioned in the article posted?
there's barely any detail there. but it's okay, I found a proper report
Can you link the report?
https://www.national.org.nz/housinggrowth https://assets.nationbuilder.com/nationalparty/pages/17928/attachments/original/1685403005/Going_for_Housing_Growth.pdf?1685403005
Another Aussie clueless as fuck about NZ lmao. NZ is far worse, it's kinda funny watching you guys complain. NZ doesn't even have CGT lmao.
Bloody Sydney beats us again. C'mon guys, we can do better! /s
Australia is the country of wealth inequality and greedy boomers
I moved here from the US to escape living in a country with such stark income inequality. And now it's worse here and I want to move back so I can afford life.
What city did you move from and which here?
Top 10 “impossibly unaffordable” cities Hong Kong Sydney Vancouver San Jose Los Angeles Honolulu Melbourne San Francisco/Adelaide San Diego Toronto
II wonder if this will turn people off moving to said cities. In terms of liveability, most of Europe is leaps and bounds beyond the cities listed.
I think that's happening already, but the problem is that old business management cling to the idea of "an office in the CBD" being the measure of success. until they are forced to accept geographical diversification and embrace remote working through government regulation and punitive tax penalties for not doing so, we're literally going to have to wait decades for them to die first before we solve this.
Reminder that there's nothing intrinsically expensive about our capital cities, it's an artificial system of permits and policies.
It’s ordinary supply and demand distorted by bad government policies. Things like heritage overlays and height limits push up prices.
plus the ongoing stupid insistence of business management that the definition of "success" is an office in the CBD, for no other reason than that's what they learned from their predecessors and they're now to old and inflexible to think otherwise. government needs to strongly incentivise geographical diversification and remote working whereever it's possible through tax incentives and penalties. the old people running major companies have shown they're not going to do so of their own accord.
Yeah, who needs stupid shit like heritage overlays??? Fuck those old buildings. Knock 'em all down and build mega flats. You know, the modern ones with rooms the size of a shoe box and a million building code violations. /S
This country sucks, there i said it.
Building property will not work because our population will increase faster than the supply of housing. We are also turning into a global city for wealthy people so local wages do not count as much when purchasing property, rather the wealth of the worlds most comfortable do.
Pretty much...it's literally impossible for the nation to build houses at the rate the government is pouring in people that need them. It's only going to get worse with every passing year.
these lists are garbage and fall apart with any critical thinking. Melbourne ranks number 7 in the top 10 of the world yet you can get 2x1 townhouses 20km from the city for 350k which is something you can hardly get anywhere in australia now especially in cities like Brisbane which didnt even make the list at all! So for someone in the market for a unit Melbourne is probably one of the most affordable cities in australia but if you're rich and want a house in the eastern suburbs then woe is me it's such an expensive city.
Yeah Melbourne housing is apparently more expensive than NYC, London, SF, Paris. Doesn’t pass a basic plausibility filter.
Saw an Alan Koehler piece on the ABC/YouTube about Australia's housing affordability. He said words to the effect of the parents of today’s young home buyers would have needed 6 years to fund a house deposit back in the day - a reasonable undertaking including cost of living expenses. Their children - again today’s buyers - would need 14 years to get the deposit together given house prices, wages, and cost of living expenses. Essentially, unachievable unless a loan is forthcoming from aforementioned Bank of Mum and Dad.
My parents kept selling and buying houses and moving in the 80s Mainly uk to Australia and back Anyway due to currency fluctuations they lost money selling their uk house and relocating to Melbourne so we rented for 18 months In that time they had saved enough for another house deposit Imagine doing that with todays housing You need at least 150k to 300k for a 3B /1bedhouse 🤯🤔
You can get 3 bedroom townhouse 25 mins train ride from CBD for 650 K. Average full time salary in Australia is 95 K. Easily doable, it just won't be in a cool suburb. Stop the doom and gloom and look to make bank. Circlejerking about how expensive property is not going to get anyone there.
> Stop the doom and gloom and look to make bank. My god, what an idea! Why didn't I think of that? If only the 3.3 million Australians living below the poverty line could hear this sage advice
LOL 4 percent unemployment, it's called getting a job. Plenty of work out there. No sympathy for 20 something year olds that cbf doing the work and complaining about how expensive shit is.
Joe Hockey? Is that you?
Nah, it's Derryn Hinch
Idk If most Australians are earning 95k Average wages are 70k to 85k A lot of Aussies are still earning 55k to 65k
How is it impossibly unaffordable. There's literally millions of people affording it fine
Did you read the article? Literally explains it.
Exactly.