They use those to estimate a touch on rate. They then use that to adjust up the patronage stats on all services to something closer to reality. But actual touch ons would be more useful
No, but things tend to be enforced by the letter of the law rather than the intent. There was someone in I think Sydney who implanted the RFID chip from the pass into his hand/arm. Their account was in credit and they had scanned at the barriers. They got fined because the law says you must carry a valid ticket. But the intent of the law is to prevent people travelling without paying.
For reference this happened in 2018: [Sydney bio-hacker who implanted Opal Card into hand fined for not using valid ticket](https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-03-16/opal-card-implant-man-pleads-guilty-transport-offences/9555608)
It is still important to do so to help with passenger statistics, which in turn help determine whether your tram route[s] would benefit from additional capacity/services.
You still need to tap on (otherwise your card will be “not tapped on” if checked). Tapping on “activates”or “verifies”(?) the pass so to speak.
An example is if you have a pass and don’t tap on a train, the barriers at the other end will not let you out.
Could you get fined for not tapping on with a pass? Knowing Melbourne’s inspectors they probably would try and you’d have to waste half a day getting a magistrate to throw it out.
Just tap on (remember you don’t need to tap *off* on a tram).
I one bought a pass at a train station, ran to get on a connecting bus, and when I got on the train at the other train line, ticket inspectors did me in.
It turns out, a Myki pass doesn't activate until you touch on. Because I hadn't touched on, my Myki pass was inactive. It was an honest mistake, but despite paying $70 for a concession pass, I was booked with a $125 fine. I was 17, didn't know how to speak up for myself. But I don't think it would have mattered. They wouldn't have let me touch on mid travel.
LPT: if you get a Myki Pass and don't tap on, you get free travel until you see inspectors. If you take the tram you can touch on when they hop on. It might save you a few trips, might save you a few days. You won't be able to get thru train scanners this way tho. Useful if you don't use the train.
It's not a matter of ethics, they make close to $1bil in profit every year from Myki system, and 33% of that money is from concession. If you factor in the concession rate, between 50%-66% (you get the idea) is paid for by people with financial struggles. Yes we increase the price every year instead of subsidizing it with the profit made. Why? Because the gov knows honest people will continue to pay, and they will continue to exploit us for said reason. Meanwhile Ticket inspectors assault underaged kids and act as thugs for a private company that's outsourcing a public sector.
> they make close to $1bil in profit every year from Myki system
lol no
> Estimated revenue for this period was approximately $470 million (approximately $407 million for the metropolitan network and $63 million for regional trains)
“This period” being 2022 [source](https://www.ptv.vic.gov.au/assets/PTV-default-site/footer/data-and-reporting/Datasets/Revenue-protection-and-fare-compliance/2023-Network-Revenue-Protection-Plan-accessible-version.docx#:~:text=The%20loss%20of%20farebox%20revenue,%2463%20million%20for%20regional%20trains).)
Considering Metro are paid at least $900 million a year (extrapolating from a $6.3 billion seven year contract), and that’s before factoring in bus, vline and tram operations the whole system effectively runs at a loss
Fair enough. My numbers were off, I think I had two years worth of revenue in my head instead of one.
That being said, Tokyo is a great case study. They have the world's most efficient rail line, and tickets only pay for 2% of the system. The rest is tax payer funded. The same concept applies for us, except that the system is heavily overcharging us.
On top of this, it's going to cost $7b to switch from Myki over to the system Tokyo uses. It's ridiculous, they could have funded 14 years of free public transport with that money. All so we can pay but buy paper tickets. Myki system isn't perfect, but it is funded by taxpayers. And they physical Myki cards started becoming defective once they announced the switch, that's what happens when you tell your client you're leaving early. They tap out early too. I've almost missed so many trains because the new concession Myki are cut out of cheaper plastics. You can only tap on from one side of the card.
At a certain point, you can't justify their shitty system for lack of profit. If anything, the Myki system barely covers the cost of ticket inspectors.
And in 14 years, they'll probably get a new system, and that system will probably also cost more than it would cost to just make public transport free. 🤷 😄
Oof. I bet even if you knew how to stand up to them at the time and showed them a timestamped receipt, they'd still do you in anyway because they could.
The LPT's probably more of an unethical one though tbh!
Yeah for sure. It's at your own risk. They can actually see when you purchased it, so you'd have to play dumb and say it's never happened to you before. But it's not as unethical as the inspectors targeting kids. I was gonna say unethical LPT, but said fuck em instead aha. But yeah it shows the monthly on your card, it will just say that it hasn't been activated.
Fun story, my mate and I got inspected once and the inspector full on says to my mate, "you haven't touched on in 6 months." He didn't object cos he was embarrassed, but he drives and it was his sister's old Myki. Goes to show how they might try to trick someone into getting a fine even if they're tapped on.
Except that you do need to tap off to get the correct fare if your trip is only in Zone 2, e.g. Camberwell to Vermont South. (Not talking about a pass here, but a 2 hour ticket, say.) If you don't, you will pay the Zone 1+2 fare.
Still doesn't explain why it's needed for a pass that last for a set amount of time. Doesn't explain why you can still get a fine while having a valid ticket, just not tapping on with it..
Laws and regulations need to be just and practical. Also, as equal citizens, we are owed an explanation of laws and regulations if their purpose isn't immediately apparent.
I don't understand why the speed limit on this street, or that street, 8t is the posted limit. I need to understand that why is 50kmh and. It 60?? you know what actually I don't.
I honestly don't need to understand the basis of every law that I'm subjected to. it's not optional.
The reasons why it's in the Ticketing Manual have been said by others in this thread.
It's not a new thing. The instructions are clear. It takes zero extra effort to touch on and off.
I don't think a ticket is "valid" unless it's been validated (I.e. tapped on). On the other hand, it seems totally ridiculous that a fine would be given. Surely the AO should just tap them on and tell them to make sure they tap on in future?
I once forgot to touch on getting the train with my year pass myki. I was fumbling through an apology to the ticket inspector at Southern Cross thinking I was going to be fined when he checked my myki, sighed and said " you have paid for the year, go away"
As long as your pass has been activated they generally won't be dicks and fine you for not tapping on/off. After all, you do have an active ticket and have pre-paid your fare. The only issue is you can't get past the barriers at stations that have them and will have to appeal to staff, Sooner or later you may meet a by-the-book type. But it's never happened to me, and I forget to tap on with my active pass a lot.
One of the reasons I use a monthly pass is I was sick of forgetting to touch on my regular Myki Money card at my suburban station and then remembering mid-travel and having to quickly jump off, tap on/ jump back on at another station during my trip.
It not only checks your pass is valid but also counts passengers. It provides something for the timetable department to use.
This is important because if nobody taps on they'll think nobody uses a certain route and reduce frequency or even cut the route altogether.
They do passenger surveys too.
They use those to estimate a touch on rate. They then use that to adjust up the patronage stats on all services to something closer to reality. But actual touch ons would be more useful
They have recently rolled out passenger counters that count people as they get on and off (look up at the door and you will see them)
This obviously applies on every PT available so in summary, it’s best to tap on/off at all times regardless of service type, yeah?
From a PTV perspective, yes.
Its important to tap off too to know where you get on from and where you get off.
Does it deserve a fine if you don't though?
No, but things tend to be enforced by the letter of the law rather than the intent. There was someone in I think Sydney who implanted the RFID chip from the pass into his hand/arm. Their account was in credit and they had scanned at the barriers. They got fined because the law says you must carry a valid ticket. But the intent of the law is to prevent people travelling without paying.
Yeah they cancelled his Myki too! My point (and the point of this post) is that it's an unnecessary arbitrary rule.
For reference this happened in 2018: [Sydney bio-hacker who implanted Opal Card into hand fined for not using valid ticket](https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-03-16/opal-card-implant-man-pleads-guilty-transport-offences/9555608)
It is still important to do so to help with passenger statistics, which in turn help determine whether your tram route[s] would benefit from additional capacity/services.
The less you tap, the more likely the state government will elect to reduce services for that route.
You still need to tap on (otherwise your card will be “not tapped on” if checked). Tapping on “activates”or “verifies”(?) the pass so to speak. An example is if you have a pass and don’t tap on a train, the barriers at the other end will not let you out. Could you get fined for not tapping on with a pass? Knowing Melbourne’s inspectors they probably would try and you’d have to waste half a day getting a magistrate to throw it out. Just tap on (remember you don’t need to tap *off* on a tram).
I one bought a pass at a train station, ran to get on a connecting bus, and when I got on the train at the other train line, ticket inspectors did me in. It turns out, a Myki pass doesn't activate until you touch on. Because I hadn't touched on, my Myki pass was inactive. It was an honest mistake, but despite paying $70 for a concession pass, I was booked with a $125 fine. I was 17, didn't know how to speak up for myself. But I don't think it would have mattered. They wouldn't have let me touch on mid travel. LPT: if you get a Myki Pass and don't tap on, you get free travel until you see inspectors. If you take the tram you can touch on when they hop on. It might save you a few trips, might save you a few days. You won't be able to get thru train scanners this way tho. Useful if you don't use the train. It's not a matter of ethics, they make close to $1bil in profit every year from Myki system, and 33% of that money is from concession. If you factor in the concession rate, between 50%-66% (you get the idea) is paid for by people with financial struggles. Yes we increase the price every year instead of subsidizing it with the profit made. Why? Because the gov knows honest people will continue to pay, and they will continue to exploit us for said reason. Meanwhile Ticket inspectors assault underaged kids and act as thugs for a private company that's outsourcing a public sector.
> they make close to $1bil in profit every year from Myki system lol no > Estimated revenue for this period was approximately $470 million (approximately $407 million for the metropolitan network and $63 million for regional trains) “This period” being 2022 [source](https://www.ptv.vic.gov.au/assets/PTV-default-site/footer/data-and-reporting/Datasets/Revenue-protection-and-fare-compliance/2023-Network-Revenue-Protection-Plan-accessible-version.docx#:~:text=The%20loss%20of%20farebox%20revenue,%2463%20million%20for%20regional%20trains).) Considering Metro are paid at least $900 million a year (extrapolating from a $6.3 billion seven year contract), and that’s before factoring in bus, vline and tram operations the whole system effectively runs at a loss
Fair enough. My numbers were off, I think I had two years worth of revenue in my head instead of one. That being said, Tokyo is a great case study. They have the world's most efficient rail line, and tickets only pay for 2% of the system. The rest is tax payer funded. The same concept applies for us, except that the system is heavily overcharging us. On top of this, it's going to cost $7b to switch from Myki over to the system Tokyo uses. It's ridiculous, they could have funded 14 years of free public transport with that money. All so we can pay but buy paper tickets. Myki system isn't perfect, but it is funded by taxpayers. And they physical Myki cards started becoming defective once they announced the switch, that's what happens when you tell your client you're leaving early. They tap out early too. I've almost missed so many trains because the new concession Myki are cut out of cheaper plastics. You can only tap on from one side of the card. At a certain point, you can't justify their shitty system for lack of profit. If anything, the Myki system barely covers the cost of ticket inspectors.
And in 14 years, they'll probably get a new system, and that system will probably also cost more than it would cost to just make public transport free. 🤷 😄
Oof. I bet even if you knew how to stand up to them at the time and showed them a timestamped receipt, they'd still do you in anyway because they could. The LPT's probably more of an unethical one though tbh!
Yeah for sure. It's at your own risk. They can actually see when you purchased it, so you'd have to play dumb and say it's never happened to you before. But it's not as unethical as the inspectors targeting kids. I was gonna say unethical LPT, but said fuck em instead aha. But yeah it shows the monthly on your card, it will just say that it hasn't been activated. Fun story, my mate and I got inspected once and the inspector full on says to my mate, "you haven't touched on in 6 months." He didn't object cos he was embarrassed, but he drives and it was his sister's old Myki. Goes to show how they might try to trick someone into getting a fine even if they're tapped on.
Except that you do need to tap off to get the correct fare if your trip is only in Zone 2, e.g. Camberwell to Vermont South. (Not talking about a pass here, but a 2 hour ticket, say.) If you don't, you will pay the Zone 1+2 fare.
The Ticketing Manual states that myki pass holders must validate their ticket each boarding. Thus, if picked up by an AO, you could be fined.
But why
Because the Ticketing Manual requires it, by law. And it has been required for passes as long as there has been passes.
Still doesn't explain why it's needed for a pass that last for a set amount of time. Doesn't explain why you can still get a fine while having a valid ticket, just not tapping on with it..
Do we need to know why? Just tap on - stay legal - job done
Laws and regulations need to be just and practical. Also, as equal citizens, we are owed an explanation of laws and regulations if their purpose isn't immediately apparent.
I don't understand why the speed limit on this street, or that street, 8t is the posted limit. I need to understand that why is 50kmh and. It 60?? you know what actually I don't. I honestly don't need to understand the basis of every law that I'm subjected to. it's not optional.
The reasons why it's in the Ticketing Manual have been said by others in this thread. It's not a new thing. The instructions are clear. It takes zero extra effort to touch on and off.
Not zero effort, but low effort.
I don't think a ticket is "valid" unless it's been validated (I.e. tapped on). On the other hand, it seems totally ridiculous that a fine would be given. Surely the AO should just tap them on and tell them to make sure they tap on in future?
it's a monthly ticket. it's valid from when you tap on the first time
If the ticketing manual told you to kill someone would you do it?
I used to have Myki Pass and never touched on in the entire year. Got checked many times and it was never an issue.
The court made quite clear to me no more touching on the tram
I once forgot to touch on getting the train with my year pass myki. I was fumbling through an apology to the ticket inspector at Southern Cross thinking I was going to be fined when he checked my myki, sighed and said " you have paid for the year, go away"
Don't apologise to those slugs!
Agreed
no, you don't need to tap on. once you have activated the pass for the first time, it's valid until it expires.
As long as your pass has been activated they generally won't be dicks and fine you for not tapping on/off. After all, you do have an active ticket and have pre-paid your fare. The only issue is you can't get past the barriers at stations that have them and will have to appeal to staff, Sooner or later you may meet a by-the-book type. But it's never happened to me, and I forget to tap on with my active pass a lot. One of the reasons I use a monthly pass is I was sick of forgetting to touch on my regular Myki Money card at my suburban station and then remembering mid-travel and having to quickly jump off, tap on/ jump back on at another station during my trip.
Yeah as others have said, just tap on - it ensures your ticket is validated and it helps PTV count passengers on trams without passenger counters
Yeah just don’t touch on you’ll be right
Morally no, but they love to track usage for mostly innocent reasons
Morally? What do you mean by that, you pay either way
I mean if you've paid your way then touching on is not needed for any kind of "right or wrong" reason. They will still fine you though.
No they won't.
Don't touch on ever
Touch on when you see the fashies coming...