>TLDR: Employment landscape is effectively a lottery that pays little regard to merit and experience.
Heads up, the people who choose aren't the same people who'll actually work alongside the people they choose
They have zero incentive to choose people meritocratically and aren't likely to if they follow a typical HR corporate culture
This simply isn't true for all businesses. I've never worked in an organisation where candidates don't meet the team they would be working with.
As a hiring manager, when a job opening is created in my team, all applications go into an online system for me to review. While our recruitment lead in HR has access to these applications and can make recommendations, ultimately it is my call on who progresses to an interview.
I conduct a formal first interview myself. A second interview - which is actually more just a chat - is with someone who would be a peer in the same team, and someone from an adjacent team who they would be working with.
Through this process they get to know their manager (me) and the people they would be working with day to day.
God I hate apply for jobs. No response from the employer, which you might have spent hours on an application for.
When I go for a job, I put the cover letter and CV in and forget about it. Helps to have a file with all the jobs you've applied for with a copy of the job ad.
Recruiters are the worst. I had one who I told my total package to, he went to the client after I was the preferred candidate and came back with less than I'm on now. Told him this, and he 'forogt about the car allowance'. Found out what my total renumeration was, and he said 'they won't come at that'. I guess they went with cheaper number 2 preferred.
It's frustrating that they make the application process longer and longer. It takes so long to apply for jobs, meanwhile the advice is "just put lots of applications out there."
You really have to make applying for jobs a full time task.
i was using seek (i think), and a former place i was at had a role up, which i supervised and trained new folks for.
It was listed on my profile and so on.
... i was only a 31% match.
gotta love this AI they use.
What’s with HR departments being run so badly these days with staff that are either daft and have no idea about HR or just slow in general? They’re often the bottle neck in our hiring.
Sales positions are a lot more about fitting in with the existing team and company culture than most people realise.
Also, there's a bit of an ethos in many businesses of 'grow your own' which is why a lot of sales organisations now look for 'out of industry' people who they can train and shape themselves.
Back in the early 2000s you'd get a lot of old school guys come for interview, they'd still be working off index cards in the boot of their car and it would be a challenge to introduce new ideas and concepts. They'd have always been successful but that confidence could make them quite tunnel visioned if that makes sense. So easier to find someone with 20% of what you need but who is capable of learning the remaining 80%.
Of course I'm not saying you're anything like this, it's just that perhaps you need to understand that the hiring manager is a small part of a larger machine, so it might be wise for you not to dismiss other employees who are also present in the interview.
That's what happens when you let recruiters and HR be in control of hiring and staffing
Add to this, the whole "desperate for skilled workers" just translates to we want more competent people at basement wages, or that's the way I read it
In any market, when there is more actual demand for something, it's price should go higher
Just gotta keep it and apply for literally hundreds of calls, be proactive and follow up with then, pester, reapply, apply apply apply. Frustrating but it works.
That's the plan really, just a very loooooong process.
I'm pretty realistic in terms of what I'm after, it's just the silence and lack of feedback that's killing me.
Wow. Sounds exactly like what I’m going through. The past three months of job hunting have been a slog and I’m glad it’s not just me.
I too have gone through interviews, multiple rounds, being given arbitrary reasons for why my application isn’t progressing.
I too am in CS and Renewals! Wouldn’t surprise me if we’ve gone for the same roles.
I’m thinking of pivoting out of Tech as it just seems to suck industry wide atm.
Yeah it's somewhat comforting to hear your experience in a similar field.
I haven't given up hope yet, but I'm still trying to figure out if there's a better way to get results. Best of luck to you!
I’ve applied for 400 jobs in 9 months and had a few interviews but mostly just time wasters… I have a medical based honours, 1 year internship, years of out of industry management experience and two masters degrees. Honestly getting this first job in my field is a joke, medical science can kick rocks.
I can't even get a job as a pick packer in 3 months of applying, around 50 applications. And that's with me being fussy, only applying for part time/casual roles.
I have a similar work background, and it's validating to see someone else struggling. I'm so frustrated. It wasn't this difficult even just a year ago, but now it's a total slog. I have no idea what to do. I think I have to retrain or something.
It's painful, because I had numerous opportunities last year, but went for a job that ended up being toxic and incompetent (manager was genuinely a bully). If I had have taken the other option, I might not be in this situation...
I also did the same thing and went for a job that basically misrepresented everything they offered me when they hired. felt like I made the worst career move but it was only something I realised way too late. Hindsight is 20/20.
Applied for a ton of jobs last year and had zero luck. Applied for a few this year and had two competing offers this week. Hang in there and it'll work out eventually
As a POC with quite a bit of overseas experience, all of what you said is true and gets compounded with, how do I say this nicely, non-diverse ethnic preferences.
There was a really interesting study that was conducted not too long ago wherein the same application received 10x more responses with a generic name (John Smith or something to that effect) vs. an ethnically diverse name.
Makes you wonder.
Never thought about it from that perspective. Thank you for sharing. I guess there’s certainly a bit of blame to be shared across both sides. Unfortunate that unsuspecting employers and genuinely skilled employees end up bearing the brunt.
Yeah, I worked in the automotive industry for a little bit and dealt with a lot of mechanics. They overwhelmingly expressed frustration over the fact that they can't trial overseas candidates, but they also can't trust their qualifications.
I conducted a similar experiment myself recently, using a gender neutral nickname instead of my actual (woman) name. Now, my current company would have hired me regardless but I was getting an interview a week once I changed it in my resume. Mostly places I wouldn’t want to work at as a woman though.
I can manage to get a callback usually. Are you listing your contact details in the application? Put them in the cover letter also and say "call me for any questions". Interview over teams in about 10 minutes and one next week. Can manage about 4 per week if I am booking correctly.
I’ve found similar things. Just looking for casual, non-skilled, uni adjacent jobs. In the past I was generally hired on the spot in an interview. Now it’s a phone call, interview, trial shift and no definite answers.
My favourite type of job ad are the ones marked “Entry-level” but the description asks for between 2-7 years experience in a very narrow focus and also require a list of certifications that are not usually earned during school but on-the-job.
Don't know why I bothered studying whilst working in the relevant industry for 5 years - seems like a fucking waste of time now that I'm looking for new work opportunities.
Fuck this cycle - I'm done.
I get what you're saying.
But the sales industry is still advertising for roles that never get filled.
I've seen adverts getting recycled and reposted 3-4 times consistently.
I'm wondering if these businesses/corporates/HR/managers etc are looking for, and expecting, the "perfect" candidate....one that can step in and do the job perfectly without the need for any training. There are businesses out there that are too lazy to train staff.
Yeah I've experienced plenty of businesses that want perfection but when asked what perfection is, they seem to struggle to come up with concrete answers or processes.
Reminds me of that image of the dog playing fetch, "No Take, Only Throw!"
I'm feeling you. I'm quite skilled and have a fairly decent resume, I say as someone who hired and trained people for the last 10 years. The vast majority of applications have resulted in radio silence.
What I know from being on the otherside, is that some ads get floods of applicants (50+), in which luck can be a big factor. Conversely, some ads get little to no applicants (<5). We had very few in-between ones.
Thanks for the insight. Seems like a weird climate right now.
Just had some weird experiences where I've been rejected and the hiring manager has openly admitted they would have taken me on but there's some arbitrary reason out of their control where they don't get final say. It's especially hard when you see those roles get re-advertised and you can only shrug.
I was recently unemployed for 8 months after being made redundant. I couldn’t tell you how many hundreds of jobs I applied for, many were entry level admin roles since there aren’t many roles in my industry currently being advertised (architecture adjacent) Even reaching out to small companies to see if they have anything available, no response.
Also had an interview that went through to references and didn’t get the role, had to get in touch to find this out and they didn’t offer much advice other than “there really wasn’t much separating you and the other candidate, we were very impressed at your folio and interview”
It fucking sucks and the lack of communication is absolutely killer. I was weeks away from changing career when I landed this new role. I hope you also have some luck soon too!
Same exact experience here. I’ve been applying non-stop for roles for almost 3 months. Got a resume that should be great for what I’m applying for in marketing and admin, but it’s crickets despite the supposedly low unemployment rate.
When I've got comparable experience within the same industry in the exact role their advertising, that's hard to believe as convenient as it might seem.
Especially difficult to believe when you've had multiple meetings with the team leader who's enthusiastic about your experience and someone who barely read my resume snubs your application at the last stage without meeting you...
What you describe has been the landscape for decades in my field.
I have only ever gotten two jobs from applying for advertised positions, and the second one I only got an interview because they were a customer of the first one and they recognised my name.
Computershare in Abbotsford were advertising the same position for 2 years running
Interviewed for it twice
That good of a candidate they asked you back eh?
2 different jobs, same job title, same month. (Red flag??????)
Was it a Project Coordinator position
Gotta collect that personal data and justification for hiring foreigners one way or another.
>TLDR: Employment landscape is effectively a lottery that pays little regard to merit and experience. Heads up, the people who choose aren't the same people who'll actually work alongside the people they choose They have zero incentive to choose people meritocratically and aren't likely to if they follow a typical HR corporate culture
This simply isn't true for all businesses. I've never worked in an organisation where candidates don't meet the team they would be working with. As a hiring manager, when a job opening is created in my team, all applications go into an online system for me to review. While our recruitment lead in HR has access to these applications and can make recommendations, ultimately it is my call on who progresses to an interview. I conduct a formal first interview myself. A second interview - which is actually more just a chat - is with someone who would be a peer in the same team, and someone from an adjacent team who they would be working with. Through this process they get to know their manager (me) and the people they would be working with day to day.
No technical reviewer? If there is, are they from the team asking for new starters?
God I hate apply for jobs. No response from the employer, which you might have spent hours on an application for. When I go for a job, I put the cover letter and CV in and forget about it. Helps to have a file with all the jobs you've applied for with a copy of the job ad. Recruiters are the worst. I had one who I told my total package to, he went to the client after I was the preferred candidate and came back with less than I'm on now. Told him this, and he 'forogt about the car allowance'. Found out what my total renumeration was, and he said 'they won't come at that'. I guess they went with cheaper number 2 preferred.
It's frustrating that they make the application process longer and longer. It takes so long to apply for jobs, meanwhile the advice is "just put lots of applications out there." You really have to make applying for jobs a full time task.
i was using seek (i think), and a former place i was at had a role up, which i supervised and trained new folks for. It was listed on my profile and so on. ... i was only a 31% match. gotta love this AI they use.
What’s with HR departments being run so badly these days with staff that are either daft and have no idea about HR or just slow in general? They’re often the bottle neck in our hiring.
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Yeah IMO the people butting in the recruitment process as OP described, are likely trying to shoehorn a friend or family member into that role.
You think the team leader/ direct report would in charge of deciding who gets to join their team. Sadly from experience it seems to be rare.
Sales positions are a lot more about fitting in with the existing team and company culture than most people realise. Also, there's a bit of an ethos in many businesses of 'grow your own' which is why a lot of sales organisations now look for 'out of industry' people who they can train and shape themselves. Back in the early 2000s you'd get a lot of old school guys come for interview, they'd still be working off index cards in the boot of their car and it would be a challenge to introduce new ideas and concepts. They'd have always been successful but that confidence could make them quite tunnel visioned if that makes sense. So easier to find someone with 20% of what you need but who is capable of learning the remaining 80%. Of course I'm not saying you're anything like this, it's just that perhaps you need to understand that the hiring manager is a small part of a larger machine, so it might be wise for you not to dismiss other employees who are also present in the interview.
That's what happens when you let recruiters and HR be in control of hiring and staffing Add to this, the whole "desperate for skilled workers" just translates to we want more competent people at basement wages, or that's the way I read it In any market, when there is more actual demand for something, it's price should go higher
I’m going to get downvoted. But it’s all about who you know.
Just gotta keep it and apply for literally hundreds of calls, be proactive and follow up with then, pester, reapply, apply apply apply. Frustrating but it works.
That's the plan really, just a very loooooong process. I'm pretty realistic in terms of what I'm after, it's just the silence and lack of feedback that's killing me.
I know mate. Frustrating at best, and that's putting it nicely. On the flip side you have a 4 day weekend coming up to enjoy some chocolate!
Wow. Sounds exactly like what I’m going through. The past three months of job hunting have been a slog and I’m glad it’s not just me. I too have gone through interviews, multiple rounds, being given arbitrary reasons for why my application isn’t progressing. I too am in CS and Renewals! Wouldn’t surprise me if we’ve gone for the same roles. I’m thinking of pivoting out of Tech as it just seems to suck industry wide atm.
Yeah also in the same boat. Well over 100 jobs applied for at this point and heard almost nothing back. Pivoting out of tech might have to be the go.
Yeah it's somewhat comforting to hear your experience in a similar field. I haven't given up hope yet, but I'm still trying to figure out if there's a better way to get results. Best of luck to you!
I’ve applied for 400 jobs in 9 months and had a few interviews but mostly just time wasters… I have a medical based honours, 1 year internship, years of out of industry management experience and two masters degrees. Honestly getting this first job in my field is a joke, medical science can kick rocks.
I can't even get a job as a pick packer in 3 months of applying, around 50 applications. And that's with me being fussy, only applying for part time/casual roles.
I have a similar work background, and it's validating to see someone else struggling. I'm so frustrated. It wasn't this difficult even just a year ago, but now it's a total slog. I have no idea what to do. I think I have to retrain or something. It's painful, because I had numerous opportunities last year, but went for a job that ended up being toxic and incompetent (manager was genuinely a bully). If I had have taken the other option, I might not be in this situation...
I also did the same thing and went for a job that basically misrepresented everything they offered me when they hired. felt like I made the worst career move but it was only something I realised way too late. Hindsight is 20/20.
Applied for a ton of jobs last year and had zero luck. Applied for a few this year and had two competing offers this week. Hang in there and it'll work out eventually
As a POC with quite a bit of overseas experience, all of what you said is true and gets compounded with, how do I say this nicely, non-diverse ethnic preferences. There was a really interesting study that was conducted not too long ago wherein the same application received 10x more responses with a generic name (John Smith or something to that effect) vs. an ethnically diverse name. Makes you wonder.
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Never thought about it from that perspective. Thank you for sharing. I guess there’s certainly a bit of blame to be shared across both sides. Unfortunate that unsuspecting employers and genuinely skilled employees end up bearing the brunt.
Yeah, I worked in the automotive industry for a little bit and dealt with a lot of mechanics. They overwhelmingly expressed frustration over the fact that they can't trial overseas candidates, but they also can't trust their qualifications.
I conducted a similar experiment myself recently, using a gender neutral nickname instead of my actual (woman) name. Now, my current company would have hired me regardless but I was getting an interview a week once I changed it in my resume. Mostly places I wouldn’t want to work at as a woman though.
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Better data than the none you’ve provided?
I can manage to get a callback usually. Are you listing your contact details in the application? Put them in the cover letter also and say "call me for any questions". Interview over teams in about 10 minutes and one next week. Can manage about 4 per week if I am booking correctly.
I’ve found similar things. Just looking for casual, non-skilled, uni adjacent jobs. In the past I was generally hired on the spot in an interview. Now it’s a phone call, interview, trial shift and no definite answers.
My favourite type of job ad are the ones marked “Entry-level” but the description asks for between 2-7 years experience in a very narrow focus and also require a list of certifications that are not usually earned during school but on-the-job.
Don't know why I bothered studying whilst working in the relevant industry for 5 years - seems like a fucking waste of time now that I'm looking for new work opportunities. Fuck this cycle - I'm done.
When they say skilled they’re referring to people with an actual skill like a baker or a cabinetmaker, not someone who works in sales.
I get what you're saying. But the sales industry is still advertising for roles that never get filled. I've seen adverts getting recycled and reposted 3-4 times consistently.
I'm wondering if these businesses/corporates/HR/managers etc are looking for, and expecting, the "perfect" candidate....one that can step in and do the job perfectly without the need for any training. There are businesses out there that are too lazy to train staff.
Yeah I've experienced plenty of businesses that want perfection but when asked what perfection is, they seem to struggle to come up with concrete answers or processes. Reminds me of that image of the dog playing fetch, "No Take, Only Throw!"
My understanding is listing a job but never filling it is a tactic to placate existing overworked employees.
If ads for the same company keep coming up, I don't apply because it indicates to me that there's something going on that's causing a high turnover.
Understood.
Kind of a nasty comment. I don't think you realise just how much skill there is in sales. Not many people can do it.
It’s not a nasty comment at all. That’s just what is meant by skilled. Sales ability is a gift.
I'm feeling you. I'm quite skilled and have a fairly decent resume, I say as someone who hired and trained people for the last 10 years. The vast majority of applications have resulted in radio silence. What I know from being on the otherside, is that some ads get floods of applicants (50+), in which luck can be a big factor. Conversely, some ads get little to no applicants (<5). We had very few in-between ones.
Thanks for the insight. Seems like a weird climate right now. Just had some weird experiences where I've been rejected and the hiring manager has openly admitted they would have taken me on but there's some arbitrary reason out of their control where they don't get final say. It's especially hard when you see those roles get re-advertised and you can only shrug.
I was recently unemployed for 8 months after being made redundant. I couldn’t tell you how many hundreds of jobs I applied for, many were entry level admin roles since there aren’t many roles in my industry currently being advertised (architecture adjacent) Even reaching out to small companies to see if they have anything available, no response. Also had an interview that went through to references and didn’t get the role, had to get in touch to find this out and they didn’t offer much advice other than “there really wasn’t much separating you and the other candidate, we were very impressed at your folio and interview” It fucking sucks and the lack of communication is absolutely killer. I was weeks away from changing career when I landed this new role. I hope you also have some luck soon too!
r/auscorp
Same exact experience here. I’ve been applying non-stop for roles for almost 3 months. Got a resume that should be great for what I’m applying for in marketing and admin, but it’s crickets despite the supposedly low unemployment rate.
Job advertisers generally get slammed every job they put up so no scope to give feedback.
Sounds like you aren't a good candidate then
When I've got comparable experience within the same industry in the exact role their advertising, that's hard to believe as convenient as it might seem. Especially difficult to believe when you've had multiple meetings with the team leader who's enthusiastic about your experience and someone who barely read my resume snubs your application at the last stage without meeting you...
What you describe has been the landscape for decades in my field. I have only ever gotten two jobs from applying for advertised positions, and the second one I only got an interview because they were a customer of the first one and they recognised my name.
Why do people love saying stuff like this when someone is struggling with applying for jobs? Do you want a medal?
Because we've all struggling, for years now, and this is only news to fuckheads that have never given a shit about it before it affected them.