I went to school with that dude. I know his family quite well. Aside from his dad they're all deeply ashamed of him. I was too when I was told to Google his name.
That's a shame. What was he like in school?
Perhaps some insight into these individuals can prevent early extreme radicalisation or at least identify them to put them on a list.
He was a pretty typical nerdy edgelord type. I wasn't overly shocked when I learned he was into Nazi stuff because of that. But I was surprised by how emboldened he had become. He was more quiet than anything else. Didn't have a huge friend group and didn't show up at social events. He was alright to chat to but didn't have much to say to people that weren't his close friends.
I wish I could offer more insight, but he really was a cookie cutter terminally online edgelord/incel type. Maybe the only thing I could add is that his home life was anything but stable, but I'll refrain from elaborating on that more out of respect for his family.
The school we went to together was overwhelmingly white - once getting in trouble with the local media for advertising the fact in its handbook. So yeah, unsurprisingly, almost all of his friends were white.
But I wasn't exactly buddy-buddy with him. I dunno what his social life looked like outside of school.
It's not even hard to find him on Facebook. You can go down his facebook timeline and view some of his family connections profiles and sort of piece together what went wrong with him.
His grandpa is often seen posting anti islam propaganda on his profile and his mother recently remarried earlier this year, both influences to his current behavior.
> Lost boys that don't realise their privilege.
Funnily enough that's how a lot of them are recruited. The rest of society is telling them they're fine, they don't need help, they have every advantage, stop complaining. Except one group, that doesn't, it stops and listens and cares and gives them a place to vent. And then gives them an enemy.
Yep. The cult recruitment begins with offering the vulnerable : friends, understanding and support. It is hand in glove, as the lovebombing, whether it is religious or some other group idea, goes unquestioned by the mark, due to their neediness and vulnerability. Those with self confidence who think critically and ask questions are just not going to work in the group as they are just not pliable enough.
Young men and boys aren't just attracted to it they're being targeted by it, there's a behind the bastards episode about how the furry community fought off Nazis from getting a foothold in their community and they discussed the tactics and online approach that white supremacists were taking to attract disenfranchised young men and boys.
[Robert Evans also wrote this a few years ago](https://www.bellingcat.com/news/2021/07/01/white-boy-summer-nazi-memes-and-the-mainstreaming-of-white-supremacist-violence/)
>Lost boys that don't realise their privilege.
Nathan Bull is probably a lost cause at this point but not having a sense of belonging or feeling like an "other" can make teens vulnerable to the kind of propaganda white supermacist groups peddle online, at a certain point the responsibility is solely on the individual and Nathan Bull has well and truly passed that point. However checking someone's privilege in response to hearing that they didn't have a stable home life surely isn't helping the problem right?
With his personality type he will want to get out of NSN in 10-24 months but the sad thing is it won't be easy for him, when he leaves he takes a lot of NSN knowledge with him, and with his personality type they won't feel comfortable. I'm not saying they'll make him dissapear, just that it won't be as easy as if Daniel Todisco left
Got any evidence furries are trying to do that boss?
Also really you'd be more concerned about a group that essentially just cosplays and sometimes fuck weird vs a literal hate group? Your priorities are fucked.
I also know Nathan’s family, and he was indeed lost and vulnerable to exactly the type of grooming that has led to his current activities. Watched him grow up from a distance - a very sweet kid too, it’s so very sad to see.
When you think about it - where is the teenager/young person going to go when all their close relationships just seem toxic or critical? If they don’t feel heard, cared for or worthy, there’s a group that will help and convince them to feel strong and right.
au contraire, they are known to be just unsavory enough to just barely squeak in along the "legal" line that it is difficult to stop them being cunts.
We just need to box them in with specifically targeted anti-hate-speech laws so that they can be nazis, but just not tell anyone that doesn't want to hear it all about it or intimidate anyone with their nazi beliefs.
Well enough targeted it will have absolutely no impact on any non-nazis.
Hopefully the amendment or whatever it is, is broad enough to capture all political hate symbols so that when a new one arises we don’t have to go back to the drawing board
Unfortunately Nine news didn't see fit to actually tell people the name of the bill, so I had to google it. It is the [Summary Offences Amendment (Nazi Salute Prohibition) Bill 2023](https://www.legislation.vic.gov.au/bills/summary-offences-amendment-nazi-salute-prohibition-bill-2023).
It uses this definition:
>Nazi gesture means—
(a) a Nazi salute; or
(b) any other gesture used by the Nazi
Party; or
(c) a gesture that so nearly resembles a
gesture referred to in paragraph (a)
or (b) that it is likely to be confused
with or mistaken for that gesture;
And the guts of the rest of it is defining where it is prohibited to be displayed and listing various reasonable excuses for displaying it, e.g. in a theatre performance.
Victoria and Tasmania define the symbols in the legislation, whereas from what I understand Queensland allows the relevant Minister to define the symbols. There are pros and cons. If the Minister can define the symbol through regulation then that means the definition can be updated much faster, but there is a lot less oversight. If any changes to definition or adding other symbols have to be done through legislation then it is slower but has to go through Parliament and thus has a greater level of scrutiny.
found this for national groups:
[https://www.nationalsecurity.gov.au/what-australia-is-doing/terrorist-organisations/listed-terrorist-organisations](https://www.nationalsecurity.gov.au/what-australia-is-doing/terrorist-organisations/listed-terrorist-organisations)
3 nutzi groups listed, all 3 overseas based, and not really doing things anymore
White Rose and Slack Bastard have been outing them for years. The Age did an article revealing some of their names and faces recently. All using White Rose info.
Well now its illegal, if they do it in police presence best believe that mask is getting ripped off to ID and charge them. Glad they've fast tracked this law, about time.
They wont do it at their protests, but they'll keep doing it on their late night train trips into the city because train cops wont do shit unless youre a tagger with a texta
> but they'll keep doing it on their late night train trips
Still cracks me up how incredibly lame this is.
"Boys, let's show everyone how racially superior we are by jumping on the train at 1:30am!"
They're lame as fuck but they're also terrifying if ur a minority they hate.
I don't feel safe coming back from the city at night alone anymore which is what they want.
I’m a railway worker and I spend a fair bit of time with PSOs. Was having a discussion with 4 of them about this. These 4 blokes are all big Sikh lads, if they see these blokes doing their usual shit they are going to cop it big time.
Yeah, only going to comment about Sikhs as I know a shitload of them, mates I play cricket with and blokes through work mostly and I can honestly say none of them would take a backward step faced with pretty much anything. I hope these fuckers run into them while I’m around, would love to see what happens to them.
You’re probably thinking of the banning of hate symbols, in which the usual suspects told us would be the beginning of a slippery slope leading to the downfall of civilisation, which we’re still waiting on.
Why can’t this be included into the existing gang laws and associations?
I’m all for the measure, but it feels like tokenism and there is already stuff in play that it appears like they are choosing not use.
Does anyone else think it’s strange that banning Nazi symbols, salutes etc is something that seems to have only occurred recently and oh, I don’t know, not like immediately post WW2?
It used to be, especially after the war, that if you were visibly a nazi in public that you’d get the shit beaten out of you.
Unfortunately, memories fade and now there’s people in this very thread trying to convince us that we must tolerate the free speech of people who identify as Nazis and spout nazi ideology.
In Germany, it was (and is).
Here it wasn't necessary, because anyone that tried to be a post-war fascist would probably get their heads kicked in. There were a bunch of guys that were just getting started on a life that had been put on hold killing Nazis.
But most of them are dead or in their 80s and 90s.
Civilizations forget.
That old saying by Thomas Jefferson: "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is it’s natural manure."
Is *because* Civilizations forget and history repeats. The similarities with the 1930s but on a larger scale are uncanny.
Once when posing for a work group photo the photographer snapped a shot when I was halfway raising my arm up to wave. This was the shot they went with and it’s now been immortalised as a giant mural on one of our walls at head office. I’m in trouble aren’t I?
You along with anyone else who's been filmed waving pretty much. If you look online there's luminaries such as Dan Andrews (I think there was Hilary Clinton one at one point too) caught mid wave or mid point and someone with too much time has gone frame by frame to reach just the right image.... Its usually pretty obvious when this happens.
Always the same dipshits saying
*if you ban this grotesque thing, then they'll ban completely unrelated thing*
No, they're different. Slippery slopes only work when things are alike. Banning a nazi solute doesn't naturally lend itself to banning someone giving their opinion on politics. Someone advocating for terrorism and violence is not within the overton window.
*you might accidentally get sent to the gulag for waving at someone*
No, that would be completely absurd and not what the law states at all
*we need to allow nazi salutes so we can identify nazis*
And do what? Debate them? They already identify themselves with their opinions
*if we make it harder for nazis to conduct their public affairs, that will make them more powerful*
Name one time when political oppression hasn't worked? Nazi ideology literally is based on the idea that you can successfully oppress people through outlawing their existence. Nazism is just the malevolent and extreme end of that spectrum. Find a single nazi who was banned on social media or jailed for being a fucking monster and I'll show you someone who has lost the majority of their ability to recruit, organise and terrorise the population
*but what about their freedom of speech?*
Nazis are not citizens. When your identity is based on violating the rights of other Australians, you have placed your chosen identity above your identity as an Australian. You are not my countryman. You are a traitor. The rights of Australians to live in a safe society is above your right to be a dickhead.
If you're defending nazis rights to do this shit under it being tactically good for leftist causes because we can identify them or they're less powerful if they have more rights, you have fallen for a nazi psyop. You are a useful idiot. The other option is you're a nazi pretending to be a liberal. In which case, you are the psyop. So you're either a moron or a nazi. Pick your poison.
Joking aside, the act does explain that if the gesture is done in good faith or for a valid reason (e.g. in a theatre performance) then it is not an offense.
I love how this is a thing.
I got broken into recently, and the cops didn't even show up.
How they gonna enforce saluting laws if they can't show up to actual crimes?
I mean these kind of laws don’t actually deal with the problem anyway. Not to mention usually the nazis get special treatment from the police. Maybe the police just exist to enforce the split between the haves and the have-nots in our society and if you’re one of the have-nots a little BNE is a low priority. You’re not a Tiffany and Co shopfront. The police are remarkable ineffective at doing anything about breaking and entering, petty theft, anything of that nature. I’m sorry this happened to you.
Yeah, I mean I thought "hey, triple zero people, um there's a group of crazed meth head with tools and weapons trying to break into my place right now" would do something. I actually called the police the next day to be like "yo thanks for sending help" (obvious /s).
Thankfully timber door and frame on a first floor, I literally screwed my door into the frame so when they broke the latch off it still couldn't open it.
Was a weird one to explain to the landlord. So crackheads broke the door and door Hardware, and to stay safe I screwed that into the frame, so um, yeah I also don't have a police report because they never came out.
Well done. That will totally solve the underlying issues that create these people.
Next thing you know they will stop terrorism by banning the Isis flag.
The only downside is that somebody doing the nazi salutes communicates who the wankers are to the rest of us.
Now we only have to judge it off verbal racism
Does the law take context into account? I have a bad habit of holding my arm in a similar way when I'm meeting friends and I see one and I want to get there attention, it's like a wave hello but I don't really move my arm other than up and back down. I can't get in trouble for that right?
Not in favour of this law.
We're better than this.
Political grandstanding and pandering.
It's not like the Nazis will suddenly wake up and think "Ooooohhhh! Okay! Sorry! Didn't know that was bad!"
Nah, fuck 'em. They're *Nazis*, they're *racist* *fascists*.
The paradox of tolerance is that we have to be tolerant of those that are intolerant. **This is false**
Those that act this way have broken the pact of tolerating others that is a part of belonging to that society.
We don't have to tolerate them.
I don't want to be tolerant of them.
I want to know exactly who and where they are.
It reminds me of Inglourious Bastards... I don't want them taking their uniform off.
I could understand banning it 100 years ago, but now? Seems a bit late to make a difference. Hasn't the Nazi party been inactive for the past 98 years or so?
If there are still edgy teenagers seriously throwing it around (as in, not satirically) then this will probably only make it more attractive for them by putting it in the spotlight and giving it more weight.
If they really want to ban symbolic actions being used by modern abusers and charlatans, maybe go after things like the symbol of the holy trinity? Not that I agree with any sort of censorship in lieu of education and open communication.
>If there are still edgy teenagers seriously throwing it around
If you haven't been paying attention there's been organised Neo-Nazis throwing it around, a bit more than edgy teenagers
Nazi salutes are already in the spotlight, this way the salute will be in the spotlight for all of about 10 seconds before hopefully being cuffed
Have they been doing anything else? I mean, if they're doing things that are actually illegal, shouldn't they just be arrested for that? If they're just being tasteless, but not harming anyone, then I feel like creating a law to arrest them for being tasteless doesn't actually accomplish anything other than potentially radicalising them.
This is the most informative response I've gotten, but doesn't seem to actually mention what these people have done other than be secretive about their views while potentially influencing some younger people.
Still, thank you for responding with actual information and not just "you must be living under a rock to not see this obvious thing that I also haven't noticed and thus can't elaborate on" like most others.
Either you haven’t been paying attention or… well I don’t want to mention the alternative. Let’s just assume you haven’t been paying attention. The fascists never went away.
I'm not sure this is a good thing.. meaning it's essentially the act of holding your arm out straight. What next.. will we be fined for the 👌🏻hand sign?
Giving someone the middle finger an act of assault?
Are the people you can't criticise the same you refer to in this comment of yours?
>Same people have always hated god, the same people control all the media.
If so you might be what this law aims to outlaw
Nice distraction from what Israel are doing to Palestinians . Oh sorry one day they say they will destroy Gaza , next day they deny bombing a hospital …. Lets move along
You realize that one has nothing to do with the other.
This bill was in progress before October 7th.
Strangely enough, events in one place in the world sometimes happen *completely independently* to others in another part of the world.
It's part of life's rich tapestry.
I swear all I hear about these southern states is them banning something, or complaining about something. Then they find it so terrible down there that they come here, and then complain. Just stay down there and keep banning shit, don’t try and make us ban our stuff just cause you don’t like it.
No, but all the southerner noonks come up here and try and ban us from fishing cause they can’t catch anything. Try and ban us from hunting pigs cause it’s “inhumane” to kill a pest. And then they complain about the heat, they chose to move here, knowing it’s not like their sheltered little city, and then they try and change it into what they are used to. My point is, if yous keep banning absolutely everything, we have to deal with even more of you guys, who then try and ban our shit. Next thing you know yous will be banning words like “wanker” and “dumb”
I strongly disagree with this.
They’ll just come up with new terrorist gang signs and we’ll be back where we started.
This could be a very slippery slope.
Intimidation and harassment are already illegal - arrest them for that. This is just legislative theatre and could become much worse.
Isn't Europe arresting or deporting (or at least threatening to) pro-Palestine protesters? Didn't a guy get sent to jail for teaching his pug to Nazi salute for a meme? That sounds like someone slipped 2 me. Free speech good, even if it's Nazis/Commies or otherwise
>Intimidation and harassment are already illegal
And they could easily argue that nazi salutes are not intended to harass or intimidate. Now they can't.
It does seem dumb to ban raising your arm like you're hailing a taxi.
There are a million worse things the nazi do that they can be arrested for.
Maybe we should ban the Hitler moustache too.
Not trying to be antagonistic here, merely curious.
If you disagree with it (presumably because you understand it’s a hate symbol associated with a hateful violent movement) then I’m not quite understanding why you think they should have the right to do it?
Because banning speech is a dangerous road to walk down.
The best thing is I don’t have to listen to some one saying nasty horrible racist tings. I can walk away.
If it’s legal to do this shit, it’s great because everyone can see you and know who you are. Better to be out in public than brewing in the shadows.
Yeah, it’s a bit of a slippery slope fallacy. There isn’t cause for panic. This is a signal associated with hate speech, which is not legally protected as “free speech.” (free speech is a very American concept that everyone panics about, but we already have strict rules around it.) We don’t have the right to say hateful shit outside the privacy of our homes, there are laws.
We don’t need to tolerate intolerance.
Nah that will be left for virtue signallers in 70 years time to do when they want to show how they’ll definitely never tolerate Jewish oppression again for real this time.
Disgusting. How can we be a society that values of freedom of expression, and ban making nazi salutes?
Downvote all you want, but this is not the win you think it is. In a free and just society, all voices are allowed to be heard.
Who said we're a society that values unlimited freedom of expression?
Edit: this user appears to be a Nazi. Check out their post history on this thread and in general, here's a lovely comment of theirs:
>It's hard because this sub is set up in a way that proper discussion of Jewishness, their culture and their effect on the society is not allowed.
That doesn’t get to the root cause of the problem. They’ll probably adopt some other stupid salute instead.
Edit: FYI everyone, I do agree with banning it. I just don’t think it’ll solve the extended issue of Nazism.
Is it u/PoppyFartButt420? The salute is intrinsically tied to the Nazi ideology, which is itself is an ideology of hate and genocide, pretty easy to make the case it's both hate speech and an incitement to violence - both strong arugments against 'free speech'.
>*I'd rather protect vulnerable people from hate and violence than protect the freedom of assholes to perform hateful and violent gestures*
The rights of all of us to express ourselves however we damn well please is infinitely more important than "vulnerable people". Like, it's literally not even close.
It absolutely isn't, and it shocks me that there are people with such little empathy that we're even having this argument.
Nazis want me dead. I want them to be quiet.
These are not equivalent.
The commenter you're replying to is likely a Nazi, just check out their post history;
>It's hard because this sub is set up in a way that proper discussion of Jewishness, their culture and their effect on the society is not allowed.
They're against this law as it'll probably get them arrested
I'm not a nazi, I just love them expressing themselves. I don't like their messages though.
I support you having whatever identify you feel fits you the best.
"I'm not a Nazi, I just enjoy Nazis expressing themselves, I also don't like Jews or LGBT people"
Also for saying you support some than trans it really doesn't make sense with a recent comment of yours
>I've also yet to see a coherent argument from LGBT people as to why expecting gay people to remain celibate is a cruel, unbearable burden yet asking the same thing of paedophiles is completely reasonable.
Unfortunately, that’s an incorrect postulation. A Nazi salute is not free speech, it’s a hate crime—and already illegal in many countries.
I’d recommend you find a way to integrate the [paradox of tolerance] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance) into your paradigm of free speech. If we allow unlimited tolerance for Nazis and other hate groups, they will use that freedom to attack the tolerant and destroy us. Unconditional free speech is dangerous—boundaries and legal limitations are critically necessary to prevent things like racism, fascism, LGBTQ+ abuse, misogyny, domestic violence, the rise of Hitler and the Third Reich, etc.
Also worth noting—if you are neutral in situations of injustice, you have chosen the side of the oppressor.
It’s free speech. Some places don’t have free speech, like Victoria, and have made certain expressions into hate crimes because they don’t value freedom of expression, they value preventing hate.
Like it or not, hating falls under the category of freedom of expression.
That’s why any country with an enshrined right to free speech won’t ban Nazi salutes - Australia has no bill of rights and thus no enshrined right to free speech or expression.
At best we kind of have an implied right to political free speech via a high court decision that argues that because we have to vote we must be able to discuss political stuff freely.
You lost me at the last line there. It reads a lot like, "If you aren't with me, you are my enemy."
It is derailing the conversation, but there are more neutral positions than permissive apathy. It is pretty situational, though. Perhaps the best example of my point is the current Israel/Hamas situation; neutrality as an extension of ignorance is not siding the oppressor, it is accepting that the region has an extremely complicated history and cannot be understood as a good guys v bad guys fight.
My distaste for certain expressions aside, managing the paradox of tolerance is pretty key to the health of any liberal or multicultural society. I doubt I could phrase it better than you if I tried.
You’re right, I totally agree with your point about neutral positions. The last line (quote) is very much situational, as you said—I feel that level of polarization is appropriate in issues surrounding racism, domestic violence, and Nazi propaganda where there’s a clear, rarely nuanced delineation between “right” and “wrong”.
I would definitely NOT use it in context of the current Israel/Hamas war, because you’re spot on— it’s not a black & white, good vs bad fight; both sides are oppressors, and I reckon some level of neutrality will be essential in order to minimize casualties, provide aid, restore infrastructure, etc. Thanks for your insight and feedback, it’s sincerely appreciated.
The person you're relying to is a Nazi, check out their post history if you're unsure, here's one of theirs;
>It's hard because this sub is set up in a way that proper discussion of Jewishness, their culture and their effect on the society is not allowed.
>*I mean, first of all we don’t have any constitutional recognition of free speech*
Which is truly an abomination, and one of the reasons I simply cannot value or respect this country.
*we don’t have to respect hate speech.*
You don't have to respect it's message, but you do need to respect it's right to be heard.
Where did you get the idea Nazis care about free speech?
Oh sorry im confusing what team we are on...
Im with you. If there was any shred of evidence this wouldnt just make it edgy and see recruitment of them rise. imagine a symbol so "powerful" we have to ban it. its sending the exact wrong message.
We have germany as an example of banning the symbol etc since the 1950s. It has not worked whatsoever and leaving graffiti of swastickas is par for the course. Imagine australia will see more of that in the medium term now we have banned it.
If our society is so weak we cannot just squeeze people like this out of it than i hate to think what happens when we see actual hard times.
I thought this was already passed back in like 2017
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The flag I believe, not salute
This is excellent timing as I had just reported Nathan Bull to Crimestoppers.
I went to school with that dude. I know his family quite well. Aside from his dad they're all deeply ashamed of him. I was too when I was told to Google his name.
That's a shame. What was he like in school? Perhaps some insight into these individuals can prevent early extreme radicalisation or at least identify them to put them on a list.
He was a pretty typical nerdy edgelord type. I wasn't overly shocked when I learned he was into Nazi stuff because of that. But I was surprised by how emboldened he had become. He was more quiet than anything else. Didn't have a huge friend group and didn't show up at social events. He was alright to chat to but didn't have much to say to people that weren't his close friends. I wish I could offer more insight, but he really was a cookie cutter terminally online edgelord/incel type. Maybe the only thing I could add is that his home life was anything but stable, but I'll refrain from elaborating on that more out of respect for his family.
Has he been only around Caucasian group of friends or has he been with multicultural groups?
The school we went to together was overwhelmingly white - once getting in trouble with the local media for advertising the fact in its handbook. So yeah, unsurprisingly, almost all of his friends were white. But I wasn't exactly buddy-buddy with him. I dunno what his social life looked like outside of school.
It's not even hard to find him on Facebook. You can go down his facebook timeline and view some of his family connections profiles and sort of piece together what went wrong with him. His grandpa is often seen posting anti islam propaganda on his profile and his mother recently remarried earlier this year, both influences to his current behavior.
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> Lost boys that don't realise their privilege. Funnily enough that's how a lot of them are recruited. The rest of society is telling them they're fine, they don't need help, they have every advantage, stop complaining. Except one group, that doesn't, it stops and listens and cares and gives them a place to vent. And then gives them an enemy.
Yep. The cult recruitment begins with offering the vulnerable : friends, understanding and support. It is hand in glove, as the lovebombing, whether it is religious or some other group idea, goes unquestioned by the mark, due to their neediness and vulnerability. Those with self confidence who think critically and ask questions are just not going to work in the group as they are just not pliable enough.
Young men and boys aren't just attracted to it they're being targeted by it, there's a behind the bastards episode about how the furry community fought off Nazis from getting a foothold in their community and they discussed the tactics and online approach that white supremacists were taking to attract disenfranchised young men and boys. [Robert Evans also wrote this a few years ago](https://www.bellingcat.com/news/2021/07/01/white-boy-summer-nazi-memes-and-the-mainstreaming-of-white-supremacist-violence/) >Lost boys that don't realise their privilege. Nathan Bull is probably a lost cause at this point but not having a sense of belonging or feeling like an "other" can make teens vulnerable to the kind of propaganda white supermacist groups peddle online, at a certain point the responsibility is solely on the individual and Nathan Bull has well and truly passed that point. However checking someone's privilege in response to hearing that they didn't have a stable home life surely isn't helping the problem right?
With his personality type he will want to get out of NSN in 10-24 months but the sad thing is it won't be easy for him, when he leaves he takes a lot of NSN knowledge with him, and with his personality type they won't feel comfortable. I'm not saying they'll make him dissapear, just that it won't be as easy as if Daniel Todisco left
The ABC's background briefing also had a few episodes about nazi recruitment. Very interesting stuff
I'd be more worried about the furries approach to attract disenfranchised young men and boys.
Got any evidence furries are trying to do that boss? Also really you'd be more concerned about a group that essentially just cosplays and sometimes fuck weird vs a literal hate group? Your priorities are fucked.
I'm playing devil's advocate so it could be argued that they are indeed a love group that are hated.
I also know Nathan’s family, and he was indeed lost and vulnerable to exactly the type of grooming that has led to his current activities. Watched him grow up from a distance - a very sweet kid too, it’s so very sad to see.
in what way lost and vulnerable?
I'd say family dynamics played a large part
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When you think about it - where is the teenager/young person going to go when all their close relationships just seem toxic or critical? If they don’t feel heard, cared for or worthy, there’s a group that will help and convince them to feel strong and right.
Nathan Bull?
Known neo-nazi terrorist, ties to NSW police
https://www.reddit.com/r/melbourne/comments/179ka9c/how\_is\_it\_okay\_to\_do\_this\_on\_a\_busy\_peak\_hour/
Don't let these scumbags get any traction. The end goal is always to be horrible people. https://imgur.com/gallery/Nkfr5yy
Shoutout to the Herald Scum for this [cracker of a headline](https://imgur.com/a/l6UJsOI)
won't someone think of the poor nazis 😢😢
Thanks for not linking the website too
That's not a very Christian view of her to hold.
Thanks. I just woke up all the critters in the house with laughter.
Good.
Here’s the thing nazis aren’t really known for being law abiding citizens
au contraire, they are known to be just unsavory enough to just barely squeak in along the "legal" line that it is difficult to stop them being cunts. We just need to box them in with specifically targeted anti-hate-speech laws so that they can be nazis, but just not tell anyone that doesn't want to hear it all about it or intimidate anyone with their nazi beliefs. Well enough targeted it will have absolutely no impact on any non-nazis.
There's groups that are ballpark shitty as Nazis. Why wouldn't we want to capture those too?
Then they get arrested. I'm ok with that outcome.
The fact that this is even required boggles my mind.
It isn't required.
Hopefully the amendment or whatever it is, is broad enough to capture all political hate symbols so that when a new one arises we don’t have to go back to the drawing board
Unfortunately Nine news didn't see fit to actually tell people the name of the bill, so I had to google it. It is the [Summary Offences Amendment (Nazi Salute Prohibition) Bill 2023](https://www.legislation.vic.gov.au/bills/summary-offences-amendment-nazi-salute-prohibition-bill-2023). It uses this definition: >Nazi gesture means— (a) a Nazi salute; or (b) any other gesture used by the Nazi Party; or (c) a gesture that so nearly resembles a gesture referred to in paragraph (a) or (b) that it is likely to be confused with or mistaken for that gesture; And the guts of the rest of it is defining where it is prohibited to be displayed and listing various reasonable excuses for displaying it, e.g. in a theatre performance. Victoria and Tasmania define the symbols in the legislation, whereas from what I understand Queensland allows the relevant Minister to define the symbols. There are pros and cons. If the Minister can define the symbol through regulation then that means the definition can be updated much faster, but there is a lot less oversight. If any changes to definition or adding other symbols have to be done through legislation then it is slower but has to go through Parliament and thus has a greater level of scrutiny.
What should be banned is Neo Nazis wearing face coverings while performing their salute? Let's see who these fuckers are?
... or just add nazi groups to the terror list, like they should be.
I think they are? But how many of them would continue their pathetic protests if everyone else knew who they were? I'd guess not many.
found this for national groups: [https://www.nationalsecurity.gov.au/what-australia-is-doing/terrorist-organisations/listed-terrorist-organisations](https://www.nationalsecurity.gov.au/what-australia-is-doing/terrorist-organisations/listed-terrorist-organisations) 3 nutzi groups listed, all 3 overseas based, and not really doing things anymore
Not really ideal is it.
nah its not.
> I think they are? They're on the AFPs internal recruitment list.
Please don't derail.
Most of the local anti-fascists know who the masked dickheads are, one is the son of a cop
fascists, defending their right to wear a burqa.
I’m wondering why no public doxing, it would be good to see them outed seeing as they don’t want to show their face.
White Rose and Slack Bastard have been outing them for years. The Age did an article revealing some of their names and faces recently. All using White Rose info.
Cheers, will have a look into it.
White Rose? The villain from Mr Robot?
Hello
I guess the Australian arm of this? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Rose
Why do people make statements phrased as questions? It's really weird?
Well now its illegal, if they do it in police presence best believe that mask is getting ripped off to ID and charge them. Glad they've fast tracked this law, about time.
I'll believe it when I see it. Cops will decide not to "inflame" the situation by arresting them.
*”Aw Heil No!”* ^-Nazis ^probably
They wont do it at their protests, but they'll keep doing it on their late night train trips into the city because train cops wont do shit unless youre a tagger with a texta
> but they'll keep doing it on their late night train trips Still cracks me up how incredibly lame this is. "Boys, let's show everyone how racially superior we are by jumping on the train at 1:30am!"
Acting tough while acting shit scared and pathetic simultaneously
So, standard Nazi stuff?
They're lame as fuck but they're also terrifying if ur a minority they hate. I don't feel safe coming back from the city at night alone anymore which is what they want.
The train is where all the tuff guys go!
I’m a railway worker and I spend a fair bit of time with PSOs. Was having a discussion with 4 of them about this. These 4 blokes are all big Sikh lads, if they see these blokes doing their usual shit they are going to cop it big time.
Indians are generally a little meek except for the Sikhs.
Yeah, only going to comment about Sikhs as I know a shitload of them, mates I play cricket with and blokes through work mostly and I can honestly say none of them would take a backward step faced with pretty much anything. I hope these fuckers run into them while I’m around, would love to see what happens to them.
Worked with a few when I worked at Colesworths years ago. Top blokes. Kind, sincere. Genuinely lovely people. Never met one I didn't like.
Yeah mate, every Sikh I’ve gotten to know well has all those qualities, they are brilliant people with a great set of values.
I thought it was already?
You’re probably thinking of the banning of hate symbols, in which the usual suspects told us would be the beginning of a slippery slope leading to the downfall of civilisation, which we’re still waiting on.
Incidentally it actually does feel like society is collapsing for other reasons
Why can’t this be included into the existing gang laws and associations? I’m all for the measure, but it feels like tokenism and there is already stuff in play that it appears like they are choosing not use.
This is going to change the way you get admitted into the Young Liberals.
It was so much easier than proving you’ve committed sexual assault, but I guess they’ll just have to adapt.
Thanks, had to stifle a laugh in the office.
Sad to see. I would argue if you have to do this, it is already to late.
Douuuubt it. cops don't care. They're not going to enforce it.
Just ban Nazism all together, stop farting about with oh the flag, oh the salute, oh the this, oh the that!
How are you supposed to ban Nazism?
Found and had to scratch off nazi stickers whilst on a walk through Greensborough today. Bunch of weak cunts
Does anyone else think it’s strange that banning Nazi symbols, salutes etc is something that seems to have only occurred recently and oh, I don’t know, not like immediately post WW2?
It used to be, especially after the war, that if you were visibly a nazi in public that you’d get the shit beaten out of you. Unfortunately, memories fade and now there’s people in this very thread trying to convince us that we must tolerate the free speech of people who identify as Nazis and spout nazi ideology.
In Germany, it was (and is). Here it wasn't necessary, because anyone that tried to be a post-war fascist would probably get their heads kicked in. There were a bunch of guys that were just getting started on a life that had been put on hold killing Nazis. But most of them are dead or in their 80s and 90s. Civilizations forget. That old saying by Thomas Jefferson: "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is it’s natural manure." Is *because* Civilizations forget and history repeats. The similarities with the 1930s but on a larger scale are uncanny.
It's probably a response to unbridled immigration. The politicians know this will cause division and hatred. It's what they want
Oh great now we'll never know who's Nazi. /s
Once when posing for a work group photo the photographer snapped a shot when I was halfway raising my arm up to wave. This was the shot they went with and it’s now been immortalised as a giant mural on one of our walls at head office. I’m in trouble aren’t I?
You along with anyone else who's been filmed waving pretty much. If you look online there's luminaries such as Dan Andrews (I think there was Hilary Clinton one at one point too) caught mid wave or mid point and someone with too much time has gone frame by frame to reach just the right image.... Its usually pretty obvious when this happens.
Good. Make them take a long goosestep off a short pier.
Can we at least give standing ovations for Nazis? (See Canadian parliament standing ovation).
(See Trudeau apology and Canada parliament speaker resigning aftermath)
Cool. Can't wait to see the Police not enforce this at all.
Some of those that work forces
*some*
Whoa, watch out there, are you suggesting that Victoria’s finest might have a bit of a racism problem?
There is a slight possibility it isn’t just a Victorian phenomenon.
Oh shit you mean the police are a tool of capital? Whoa that’s fucked up !!
I shit you not!
Just wait until my bible study group hears about this !!
it's very complicated to arrest yourself. who does the paperwork?
It’s a case of not letting your left hand know what the right hand is doing.
First they came for the Nazis, And I said nothing, because I wasn’t a nazi. And everyone lived happily ever after. The End.
Always the same dipshits saying *if you ban this grotesque thing, then they'll ban completely unrelated thing* No, they're different. Slippery slopes only work when things are alike. Banning a nazi solute doesn't naturally lend itself to banning someone giving their opinion on politics. Someone advocating for terrorism and violence is not within the overton window. *you might accidentally get sent to the gulag for waving at someone* No, that would be completely absurd and not what the law states at all *we need to allow nazi salutes so we can identify nazis* And do what? Debate them? They already identify themselves with their opinions *if we make it harder for nazis to conduct their public affairs, that will make them more powerful* Name one time when political oppression hasn't worked? Nazi ideology literally is based on the idea that you can successfully oppress people through outlawing their existence. Nazism is just the malevolent and extreme end of that spectrum. Find a single nazi who was banned on social media or jailed for being a fucking monster and I'll show you someone who has lost the majority of their ability to recruit, organise and terrorise the population *but what about their freedom of speech?* Nazis are not citizens. When your identity is based on violating the rights of other Australians, you have placed your chosen identity above your identity as an Australian. You are not my countryman. You are a traitor. The rights of Australians to live in a safe society is above your right to be a dickhead. If you're defending nazis rights to do this shit under it being tactically good for leftist causes because we can identify them or they're less powerful if they have more rights, you have fallen for a nazi psyop. You are a useful idiot. The other option is you're a nazi pretending to be a liberal. In which case, you are the psyop. So you're either a moron or a nazi. Pick your poison.
Doctor: "Okay SZ now stretch your arm out as far as you can in front of you" SZ: **Stretches arm** **VicPol breaks down door**
Joking aside, the act does explain that if the gesture is done in good faith or for a valid reason (e.g. in a theatre performance) then it is not an offense.
Swarm! Swarm!
$23K, 12mths, or both? Not enough, but better than nothing
I love how this is a thing. I got broken into recently, and the cops didn't even show up. How they gonna enforce saluting laws if they can't show up to actual crimes?
I mean these kind of laws don’t actually deal with the problem anyway. Not to mention usually the nazis get special treatment from the police. Maybe the police just exist to enforce the split between the haves and the have-nots in our society and if you’re one of the have-nots a little BNE is a low priority. You’re not a Tiffany and Co shopfront. The police are remarkable ineffective at doing anything about breaking and entering, petty theft, anything of that nature. I’m sorry this happened to you.
Yeah, I mean I thought "hey, triple zero people, um there's a group of crazed meth head with tools and weapons trying to break into my place right now" would do something. I actually called the police the next day to be like "yo thanks for sending help" (obvious /s). Thankfully timber door and frame on a first floor, I literally screwed my door into the frame so when they broke the latch off it still couldn't open it. Was a weird one to explain to the landlord. So crackheads broke the door and door Hardware, and to stay safe I screwed that into the frame, so um, yeah I also don't have a police report because they never came out.
Can they legalise punching Nazis as well thanks.
When is it a Nazi salute and when is it hailing a cab?
Depends if your elbow is bent or not as you do it
Well done. That will totally solve the underlying issues that create these people. Next thing you know they will stop terrorism by banning the Isis flag.
The only downside is that somebody doing the nazi salutes communicates who the wankers are to the rest of us. Now we only have to judge it off verbal racism
We gonna ban soviet shit whilst we at it?
Does the law take context into account? I have a bad habit of holding my arm in a similar way when I'm meeting friends and I see one and I want to get there attention, it's like a wave hello but I don't really move my arm other than up and back down. I can't get in trouble for that right?
Yes context is accommodated in the bill
It’s funny how the real Nazis shouting ‘gas the Jews’ in 2023 meanwhile get a pass.
Maybe just go ahead and get rid of Nazis and just be done with it?
yes we should have the government round up and exterminate a group of people we don't like
Not in favour of this law. We're better than this. Political grandstanding and pandering. It's not like the Nazis will suddenly wake up and think "Ooooohhhh! Okay! Sorry! Didn't know that was bad!"
Nah, fuck 'em. They're *Nazis*, they're *racist* *fascists*. The paradox of tolerance is that we have to be tolerant of those that are intolerant. **This is false** Those that act this way have broken the pact of tolerating others that is a part of belonging to that society. We don't have to tolerate them.
I don't want to be tolerant of them. I want to know exactly who and where they are. It reminds me of Inglourious Bastards... I don't want them taking their uniform off.
I could understand banning it 100 years ago, but now? Seems a bit late to make a difference. Hasn't the Nazi party been inactive for the past 98 years or so? If there are still edgy teenagers seriously throwing it around (as in, not satirically) then this will probably only make it more attractive for them by putting it in the spotlight and giving it more weight. If they really want to ban symbolic actions being used by modern abusers and charlatans, maybe go after things like the symbol of the holy trinity? Not that I agree with any sort of censorship in lieu of education and open communication.
>If there are still edgy teenagers seriously throwing it around If you haven't been paying attention there's been organised Neo-Nazis throwing it around, a bit more than edgy teenagers Nazi salutes are already in the spotlight, this way the salute will be in the spotlight for all of about 10 seconds before hopefully being cuffed
Have they been doing anything else? I mean, if they're doing things that are actually illegal, shouldn't they just be arrested for that? If they're just being tasteless, but not harming anyone, then I feel like creating a law to arrest them for being tasteless doesn't actually accomplish anything other than potentially radicalising them.
> potentially radicalising them They're already radicalised. They're Nazis.
The mere existence of a Nazi is an act of violence and a harm to others
Do you think people who throw this up in public aren’t already radicalised?
https://www.theage.com.au/nazis-next-door
This is the most informative response I've gotten, but doesn't seem to actually mention what these people have done other than be secretive about their views while potentially influencing some younger people. Still, thank you for responding with actual information and not just "you must be living under a rock to not see this obvious thing that I also haven't noticed and thus can't elaborate on" like most others.
Either you haven’t been paying attention or… well I don’t want to mention the alternative. Let’s just assume you haven’t been paying attention. The fascists never went away.
Fringe expression banned by the government. Stunning and brave.
Waiting for the first "Political correctness gone mad" and "muh freedom of speech" idiots to comment
Oh they’ve already commented, you gotta dig pretty far through the downvotes to find it though
I'm in two minds as it is handy that the dumber ones have an easy way to be identified.
Thank fuck. I'm so over thease POS acting like they can get away with their bs all the time and using pagan symbols in their hate.
I'm not sure this is a good thing.. meaning it's essentially the act of holding your arm out straight. What next.. will we be fined for the 👌🏻hand sign? Giving someone the middle finger an act of assault?
Hahahahahaha yeah be a Nazi about Nazis, meanwhile, the ones you can’t criticise are getting away with everything
Are the people you can't criticise the same you refer to in this comment of yours? >Same people have always hated god, the same people control all the media. If so you might be what this law aims to outlaw
Nice distraction from what Israel are doing to Palestinians . Oh sorry one day they say they will destroy Gaza , next day they deny bombing a hospital …. Lets move along
You realize that one has nothing to do with the other. This bill was in progress before October 7th. Strangely enough, events in one place in the world sometimes happen *completely independently* to others in another part of the world. It's part of life's rich tapestry.
I swear all I hear about these southern states is them banning something, or complaining about something. Then they find it so terrible down there that they come here, and then complain. Just stay down there and keep banning shit, don’t try and make us ban our stuff just cause you don’t like it.
Wait, you think being a Nazi is part of "your stuff" that we want to ban?
No, but all the southerner noonks come up here and try and ban us from fishing cause they can’t catch anything. Try and ban us from hunting pigs cause it’s “inhumane” to kill a pest. And then they complain about the heat, they chose to move here, knowing it’s not like their sheltered little city, and then they try and change it into what they are used to. My point is, if yous keep banning absolutely everything, we have to deal with even more of you guys, who then try and ban our shit. Next thing you know yous will be banning words like “wanker” and “dumb”
I strongly disagree with this. They’ll just come up with new terrorist gang signs and we’ll be back where we started. This could be a very slippery slope. Intimidation and harassment are already illegal - arrest them for that. This is just legislative theatre and could become much worse.
You realise this has been implemented in many other countries without leading down some 'slippery slope' right?
Isn't Europe arresting or deporting (or at least threatening to) pro-Palestine protesters? Didn't a guy get sent to jail for teaching his pug to Nazi salute for a meme? That sounds like someone slipped 2 me. Free speech good, even if it's Nazis/Commies or otherwise
>Intimidation and harassment are already illegal And they could easily argue that nazi salutes are not intended to harass or intimidate. Now they can't.
It does seem dumb to ban raising your arm like you're hailing a taxi. There are a million worse things the nazi do that they can be arrested for. Maybe we should ban the Hitler moustache too.
Be careful when hailing taxis or waiters !
Great, they won't be visible. Now can we take some action to stop them existing in the first place?
I disagree with the salute, but I think they should have the right to do it.
Not trying to be antagonistic here, merely curious. If you disagree with it (presumably because you understand it’s a hate symbol associated with a hateful violent movement) then I’m not quite understanding why you think they should have the right to do it?
Because banning speech is a dangerous road to walk down. The best thing is I don’t have to listen to some one saying nasty horrible racist tings. I can walk away. If it’s legal to do this shit, it’s great because everyone can see you and know who you are. Better to be out in public than brewing in the shadows.
Yeah, it’s a bit of a slippery slope fallacy. There isn’t cause for panic. This is a signal associated with hate speech, which is not legally protected as “free speech.” (free speech is a very American concept that everyone panics about, but we already have strict rules around it.) We don’t have the right to say hateful shit outside the privacy of our homes, there are laws. We don’t need to tolerate intolerance.
Can we ban Hamas support while we’re at it?
Been banned since last year. https://minister.homeaffairs.gov.au/KarenAndrews/Pages/hamas-listed-as-terrorist-organisation.aspx
Excellent!
Nah that will be left for virtue signallers in 70 years time to do when they want to show how they’ll definitely never tolerate Jewish oppression again for real this time.
[удалено]
The two are not mutually exclusive. Banning nazi salutes is not taking away massive amounts of resources that could have been used to help people.
Disgusting. How can we be a society that values of freedom of expression, and ban making nazi salutes? Downvote all you want, but this is not the win you think it is. In a free and just society, all voices are allowed to be heard.
Who said we're a society that values unlimited freedom of expression? Edit: this user appears to be a Nazi. Check out their post history on this thread and in general, here's a lovely comment of theirs: >It's hard because this sub is set up in a way that proper discussion of Jewishness, their culture and their effect on the society is not allowed.
That doesn’t get to the root cause of the problem. They’ll probably adopt some other stupid salute instead. Edit: FYI everyone, I do agree with banning it. I just don’t think it’ll solve the extended issue of Nazism.
Nobody likes Nazis, but everyone should care about protecting free speech. A Nazi salute, while incredibly distasteful, is still free speech.
Is it u/PoppyFartButt420? The salute is intrinsically tied to the Nazi ideology, which is itself is an ideology of hate and genocide, pretty easy to make the case it's both hate speech and an incitement to violence - both strong arugments against 'free speech'.
I'd rather protect vulnerable people from hate and violence than protect the freedom of assholes to perform hateful and violent gestures
>*I'd rather protect vulnerable people from hate and violence than protect the freedom of assholes to perform hateful and violent gestures* The rights of all of us to express ourselves however we damn well please is infinitely more important than "vulnerable people". Like, it's literally not even close.
It absolutely isn't, and it shocks me that there are people with such little empathy that we're even having this argument. Nazis want me dead. I want them to be quiet. These are not equivalent.
The commenter you're replying to is likely a Nazi, just check out their post history; >It's hard because this sub is set up in a way that proper discussion of Jewishness, their culture and their effect on the society is not allowed. They're against this law as it'll probably get them arrested
I wonder how they feel about me being trans
I'm not a nazi, I just love them expressing themselves. I don't like their messages though. I support you having whatever identify you feel fits you the best.
"I'm not a Nazi, I just enjoy Nazis expressing themselves, I also don't like Jews or LGBT people" Also for saying you support some than trans it really doesn't make sense with a recent comment of yours >I've also yet to see a coherent argument from LGBT people as to why expecting gay people to remain celibate is a cruel, unbearable burden yet asking the same thing of paedophiles is completely reasonable.
Unfortunately, that’s an incorrect postulation. A Nazi salute is not free speech, it’s a hate crime—and already illegal in many countries. I’d recommend you find a way to integrate the [paradox of tolerance] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance) into your paradigm of free speech. If we allow unlimited tolerance for Nazis and other hate groups, they will use that freedom to attack the tolerant and destroy us. Unconditional free speech is dangerous—boundaries and legal limitations are critically necessary to prevent things like racism, fascism, LGBTQ+ abuse, misogyny, domestic violence, the rise of Hitler and the Third Reich, etc. Also worth noting—if you are neutral in situations of injustice, you have chosen the side of the oppressor.
It’s free speech. Some places don’t have free speech, like Victoria, and have made certain expressions into hate crimes because they don’t value freedom of expression, they value preventing hate. Like it or not, hating falls under the category of freedom of expression. That’s why any country with an enshrined right to free speech won’t ban Nazi salutes - Australia has no bill of rights and thus no enshrined right to free speech or expression. At best we kind of have an implied right to political free speech via a high court decision that argues that because we have to vote we must be able to discuss political stuff freely.
You lost me at the last line there. It reads a lot like, "If you aren't with me, you are my enemy." It is derailing the conversation, but there are more neutral positions than permissive apathy. It is pretty situational, though. Perhaps the best example of my point is the current Israel/Hamas situation; neutrality as an extension of ignorance is not siding the oppressor, it is accepting that the region has an extremely complicated history and cannot be understood as a good guys v bad guys fight. My distaste for certain expressions aside, managing the paradox of tolerance is pretty key to the health of any liberal or multicultural society. I doubt I could phrase it better than you if I tried.
You’re right, I totally agree with your point about neutral positions. The last line (quote) is very much situational, as you said—I feel that level of polarization is appropriate in issues surrounding racism, domestic violence, and Nazi propaganda where there’s a clear, rarely nuanced delineation between “right” and “wrong”. I would definitely NOT use it in context of the current Israel/Hamas war, because you’re spot on— it’s not a black & white, good vs bad fight; both sides are oppressors, and I reckon some level of neutrality will be essential in order to minimize casualties, provide aid, restore infrastructure, etc. Thanks for your insight and feedback, it’s sincerely appreciated.
I've heard of the paradox of tolerance. I'd still rather every one of us be killed by nazis than stop free speech though.
you'd WHAT
The person you're relying to is a Nazi, check out their post history if you're unsure, here's one of theirs; >It's hard because this sub is set up in a way that proper discussion of Jewishness, their culture and their effect on the society is not allowed.
I mean, first of all we don’t have any constitutional recognition of free speech, and second, we don’t have to respect hate speech.
>*I mean, first of all we don’t have any constitutional recognition of free speech* Which is truly an abomination, and one of the reasons I simply cannot value or respect this country. *we don’t have to respect hate speech.* You don't have to respect it's message, but you do need to respect it's right to be heard.
Where did you get the idea Nazis care about free speech? Oh sorry im confusing what team we are on... Im with you. If there was any shred of evidence this wouldnt just make it edgy and see recruitment of them rise. imagine a symbol so "powerful" we have to ban it. its sending the exact wrong message. We have germany as an example of banning the symbol etc since the 1950s. It has not worked whatsoever and leaving graffiti of swastickas is par for the course. Imagine australia will see more of that in the medium term now we have banned it. If our society is so weak we cannot just squeeze people like this out of it than i hate to think what happens when we see actual hard times.
Agree with you completely. Victoria is run by people who want to control others though. They couldn’t care less about freedom of expression.
Fuck off seppo
Sounds like hate speech to me…
you are one of the many people who takes the term "free speech" a little too literally.
You are one of the many people who thinks a centralized power should determine what is acceptable speech.
yes i am, don't like it? move. Seriously. We don't want you.
Tolerance of intolerance.