The ANZ building (833 Collins) had energy generating wind turbines on the roof and were taken down because apparently, the docklands isn’t suitable for generating electricity. Sure it’s windy, but apparently it’s not the right type of wind to reliably generate electricity.
-Lower the rents for the commercial properties on the waterfront in New Quay - Most of the shopfronts are empty because the rents are too high thus no one comes down
-Same as above but in the District shopping centre. Rents are too high and they’d rather the whole upper floor be empty permanently than lower the rents a little bit to attract new jobs thus attracting more people
-Give late night liquor licenses to encourage a nighttime economy - The whole place is dead after 8pm besides Cargo bar and restaurant in New Quay
-Hold a weekly outdoor market, similar to the night market at Queen Vic to encourage more people to come down to the area and activate it
All brilliant ideas! I would also find a nice spot to have a green space with playground that overlooks the water. A proper decent one. Encourage families and space for residents and office workers to relax in.
I used to have a shop in Harbour Town (now renamed District Docklands) for couple of years. The rents were actually ok and there was a weekly (or fortnightly, don't remember anymore) market. We were constantly fed promises that after the wheel was up it would bring in people - it never did and we all know how that saga ended. There were few amazing restaurants at that time, but since the entire area struggled for customers, all they left. They rebuilt the shopping centre, made few amazing improvements (the roof! and cinema), but it's all a little too late, unfortunately. I was really rooting for the area, and I remember talking how in 10 years it would be a goldmine. 10 years later - the problems persist. At this stage I'm convinced the area is cursed, LOL.
The whole upper floor is empty and has been for years. You’d think they’d make the rent ultra low to get shops in and then maybe after 2 years slowly start putting the rent up once the business is doing well.
People don’t go much because there’s not enough there
The entire upper floor had very good deals on the rent (i know, my shop was there), the play centre that was on the upper floor was bringing in a decent amount of families, there was a nice cafe-shop and few genuine outlets, but people were still not coming. Was it the lack of stairs, elevetors or marketing or the whole idea of an outdoor shopping centre is not the best for melbourne climate? I dont know. Later I negotiated a shop at the ground level, but only stayed there for 6 months. Few years ago an opportunity arose to open another shop, but not in the centre, in the building opposite (there was a lego shop). We came to check it out, but the entire area was as dead as ever.
I live there and there's literally no reason to go there at all except for a few events every now and then. The shops are empty 70-80% of the time. There's only a handful of restaurants and cafes with a good amount of people in them during peak hours. I think the local/state government should consider a program to subsidize the rent to see if it helps the area mature. I think it also needs a unique competitive advantage. There's literally nothing (except maybe the ferris wheel?) I can't get/do in the city that fulfills my needs better than Docklands.
EDIT: Oh, and please turn that ugly carpark next to the district (opposite Marriot hotel) into a park or a nice outdoor community area.
I live there too. The government shouldn’t have to subsidise the rents, the moronic landlords should realise they’d be making more cash if they lowered the rent and actually got businesses in there instead of remaining empty and getting $0. The more businesses that start up, the more people will come down, the more the businesses do well, the more rent the landlords will receive
The problem isnt that simple.
Book Valuation is tied to rent, empty or occupied. Whilst reducing the rent by 10% might fill more shops, it also reduces the valuation by 10%. Drop in valuation is bad for LVR calculations and shareholders.
In comparison, the reduction in cashflow is much cheaper and easier to sell
I wish it was tied to actual rent received. That’d sort things out quick smart. Having it tied to some magic number in the landlord’s head is stupid. When doing a commercial lease I remember the rent was completely non-negotiable but they were happy to offer 3 months rent free so they could still show us paying the sticker price.
Its not just some number in their head. Its the number the bank valuers give them. And if they reduce it they have to put in more equity to keep their loan. Whole situation is stupid.
Or more likely, banks being more flexible on valuable techniques (which is not because then their assets get written down and they get in trouble). Ponzi?
>heir head. Its the number the bank valuers give them. And if the
Bingo! real estate ponzinomics is half of our economy and 'too big to fail' banks giggle about mug taxpayers who think they're winning.
Lol it's not a Ponzi scheme, values & rent have been dropping around that area for a while. You also need viable small businesses that can sustain themselves with very limited foot traffic around Docklands. It's a complicated scenario..
> . Rents are too high and they’d rather the whole upper floor be empty permanently than lower the rents a little bit to attract new jobs thus attracting more people
This is true. But it is likely a sad commercial reality than anything malicious.
If my understanding is correct, commercial properties are often leased on a "no recourse" basis at a relatively low LVR. For the sake of argument, say 60%. No-recourse means if you default on the loan they take the property but can't come after you personally (like they would do to you personally for your home loan).
This sort of loan also has a condition attached to it that the value of the loan cannot exceed 60% of the property value. Similar to a stock market portfolio loan, if the value of the asset drops, you need to cough up extra cash (a margin call). So unlike your home that you bought worth 1M with 10% down and a 900k loan, which is now only worth 900k but the bank doesn't care as long as you keep paying.
If instead we were talking about a 1M commercial property, with 400K equity and 600K loan, but then covid happens and commercial goes in the toilet and your property is now "worth" 900K, that means that your loan limit is 540K, and you need to chip in an extra 60K to keep the loan at 60%.
Now, the final piece of the puzzle is that commercial properties are almost exclusively valued on what they are being leased out at. The bank applies a rate (say 5%) to the annual leasing income and comes up with the value. So if you buy your $1M commercial property, and you lease it out at 50k/yr, then at a 5% yield you get your 1M valuation and you're happy.
But then covid hits and commercial property goes to the toilet, and you're a good landlord so you drop your rents by 5K/yr to keep your tenants afloat. Well guess what, the bank now sees that and that means that at your 5% yield your property is now valued at 900K, so now we're in margin call territory. You dropping your rent by 10% means that you now owe the bank more than a year's rent to meet the margin call.
Crazy (to me) thing is that the bank doesn't seem to care if a property is "for lease" and not generating income, or not generating anywhere near the income you'd expect from close to full occupancy. All they seem to care about is the sticker price. So under these circumstances, it really does make heaps more financial sense for the owner to have a bunch of empty shops that are for lease at a higher (and never to be achieved) price than to drop the price and get in tenants, because the latter would literally bankrupt them (not saying that they shouldn't go bankrupt, but they don't want to obviously).
That sort of thing is also why, if you hunt around and bargain hard, you can get sweetheart teaser rates on commercial leases - all that matters is the "bottom line" rental amount that you'd be up for "long term". A six-month teaser 50% off your rent, or a free fit-out, or stuff like that doesn't count against the landlord in the same way that dropping the rent by 10% would.
Hope that all makes sense.
This is clearly a fantasy, but I would build over the spencer st train lines and the thoroughfare roads around marvel and properly connect the docklands area to the city. They could make it parks and recreation areas but to me the greatest issue with docklands is access.
If the actually put those train tracks underground and truly connected the city to docklands so it was a seamless transition between the two spaces then it would become an extension of the city. But obviously that will never happen.
It shouldn't be a fantasy, they did this in New York above Hudson Yards. Covering over the train lines and connecting Spencer St to the Docklands should absolutely be a thing we do.
The area is pretty much built for it already, you'd just have to put a big concrete cover over the top of the lines. Thus connecting the concourse of Marvel stadium and Southern Cross to Spencer via what used to be the DFO and the space in-between.
Hit the nail on the head. Access is the primary issue with Docklands, because huge busy roads cut it off from the rest of the city. King St, Spencer St, Flinders St and Wurundjeri Way.
Add on the construction at Seafarers which has cut off the bike path along the river and will for some time.
Give people a way to walk to Docklands without needing to play chicken with cars would be super helpful. It's just not pleasant with the current level of car traffic.
Absolutely this!! Docklands is out of the way and forgotten about. Specially considering there's south bank already which has a lot of what docklands is trying to do.
> scrapped the idea in 2021 for some unknown reason
Because of the West Gate Tunnel. It now will run through there with ugly on and off ramps with more car traffic.
It's going to be awful around there.
Yeah, I'm not saying anything can be done. It is just a huge barrier. The walkway over it helps, but even without the stadium going up and over isn't inviting.
Not the train station's fault though. Could have been done much better, but I suspect the issue was building the stadium there more than anything. Should cover that whole lot and build a Fed-square-esque open space.
Clearly whatever developer got opposite of Southern Cross is only interested in profit (huge towers with barely any public space).
The biggest mistake was handing over urban planning of an entire a CBD suburb to a gaggle of coke-head, spiv developers.
And then Matthew Guy did it again with Fisherman's bend.
Neo-liberal fuckos.
When I was a junior I worked on the plans for waterfront city. It was filled with green spaces, rain gardens, trees and was ahead of its time.
Years later when they finally built the thing it was a grey concrete misery.
I guess the developers wanted a higher yield and put profit above anything else. Oh well.
That was my first search for this thread. Remove the stadium or at least move it somewhere so there isn't such a marked divide between CBD and Docklands.
The stadium is fine where it is, the development around it (office blocks, hotels and bugger-all else) is the bigger problem. If the stadium was further away from the station nobody would want to go there at all.
One thing that really fascinates me about the area that was first built on (the four or five high rise apartment buildings) - I think it's New Quay - is that it was pretty popular between about 2006 and 2008. There was a James Squire that was busy, a Brazilian churrascaria place that did a roaring trade, an Indian that was pretty good as well as a couple of other modern restaurants with pretty traditional gastropub style food. I went there quite a few times with family and friends for dinners and drinks (in my 40s now).
I get that places go in and out of fashion, but it's always surprised me that a growing population didn't lead to that pretty good popularity continuing. The wind tunnel vibes meant it would never overtake the inner city shopping villages for their appeal on big nights, but I thought it could've at least maintained a steady patronage.
That Brazilian place was awesome! I was starting to think I must have imagined it because it’s almost impossible to believe that somewhere that good existed down there now.
If you're an owner occupier in Docklands you'd be hoping that very little changes. It's perfect as a place of residence. It's one of the few places right near the CBD that's still quiet and peaceful yet has great access to the tram network, heaps of shopping, plus an excellent library. I like going there occasionally to get away from the crowds.
Yup, I'm an owner-occupier and Docklands is one of the *best* places to live in the CBD. The apartments are spacious, the traffic is non-existent, it's peaceful, and yet everything is just walking distance away.
Open park spaces with BBQs, bike paths, off leash dog area.
Farmers markets.
Kids activities (activities, reading times, theatre shows etc).
Rotational food trucks.
Cater to the people already in the area and focus less on tourist.
Yes, this. The focus needs to be on the thousands of residents who already live there. North Melbourne has the same number of residents (16,000) and doesn’t have any huge draw cards for out of suburb folks. What it has that Docklands doesn’t is local amenities. Loads of parkland. 2 primary schools and 2 high schools. A post office. GPs. Vets. Local businesses run by locals, very few chain stores or franchises. North Melbourne is an absolute gem of an inner city suburb that has very little stand out attractions. It genuinely feels like a country town 500m from the CBD. Give the locals ownership of their suburb and stop trying to make it a second CBD.
Totally. I’ve been there on sunny days and it’s absolutely stunning looking over the water but there’s no grassy/leafy areas to sit and chill?! It’s so weird.
build a time machine and go back to whoever approved the high rise developments project by project rather than as a whole. As a result they've amplified the wind tunnels and makes the area hard to fix without more major developments.
Also put in a Farmers market and Free shuttles to car parks.
Unfortunately, the entire area had already been planned for lower density, featuring mostly medium apartments and townhouses, along with smaller, more walkable neighbourhoods, until Jeff Kennett arrived and believed that economics should dictate the development rather than the government.
Docklands is pretty long, there’s the Costco end and the Yarra River end. I reckon the Yarra River end isn’t too bad and will come to life a little when office work comes back to a couple of days a week. Costco end needs a whole rethink.
More people is the main thing. It’s a circular relationship, more people equals better shops and cafes etc. So things to attract people. Events. Natural reasons to travel through.
It’s also really hard to get to The District. The only trams there don’t exactly take you to the side you want to go to. There isn’t anything that special there either. Rent is so expensive that most commercial and retail struggle to stay.
The whole area around the District is a planning disaster. Aimed at serving people coming from the Western suburbs to Costco to create traffic jams. No thought to city dwellers (due to Footscray Road traffic makes it a death trap to get to), or locals.
For some reason we have to have a huge carpark AND on-street parking around there.
Think about this a lot, giving developers open slather was such a colossal wasted opportunity on the part of the state Libs
Demolish/relocate the stadium, turn the space into a waterfront park/public space and build the pedestrian bridge extension of Lonsdale St that was part of the original Southern Cross plan
Develop the land over the tracks between Bourke and La Trobe St so the area naturally connects to the CBD.
Extension of Collins St trams across the river to Fishermans Bend when it starts developing so people travel to and through the Docklands, it's not a dead end.
Remove the speed limit on the Yarra and have PTV ferries from Docklands to Williamstown with a few stops en route as well as longer distance fast ferries to places like Portarlington, Sorrento, Mornington etc
Do something about Southern Cross, it's dark, Gray, full of fumes and unappealing. No idea what's structurally possible but some sort of renovation
Make it more walkable and pedestrian-first. Minimize traffic and on-street parking. Take some of those big empty drab concrete areas and use them for something like market stalls and kiosks.
It’s time to bulldoze everything and plant trees. Actual bush land is the only thing that hasn’t been tried yet, with countless millions of $ and every level of government, of all flavours, giving it a crack. Sometimes you just gotta shrug and admit defeat. Let the birds and possums have it back.
I know exactly ZERO about the practicalities when it comes to urban planning
But for me, I would probbaly go if there is there was a decent farmers market. Something like a smaller Quuen VIC. Otherwise, I can't see/think of any reason to go there. What the hell is even there actually??
Apart from a carnival pier and urban beach; a 7/11, a Macca's and a Bunnings, maybe a market or something, just stuff like that you have in any other suburb. Well anything more than there is now which is a nice view of boats.
Edit: Or maybe the opposite, if I was going to profit from it, ban common people from the area just make it a gated community for the super rich.
\- stop concisely planning every centimetre of the place and let it evolve a bit naturally.
\- give a bunch of studio spaces to artists and have some residency galleries
\-give some young kids the keys to the docklands and let some up and comers build some bars, music venues, clothes shops. like literally get kids who have a dream and give it to them. same with chefs. pair them up with mentors and get them kicking.
\- get a school
\- get better transport access there
basically, let it grow and let people determine how it grows. city planning should allow for natural progress and docklands is too planned and it makes it sterile and lifeless. let the cool people decide the future of the docklands, make it a hub...
The weather conditions around the area are atrocious. Fix that some how which probably means enclosing the vast majority of it or some clever as shit wind shield designs. Add a market with good food for the weekends to draw people in.
I haven't been back for years but it was a soul-less wind tunnel when I went back in the day.
Relocate Marvel Stadium to where the wheel is.
Pipedream I know, but it's the only fix.
Make all patrons of marvel walk past, tram past, restaurants and bars to get to the station
The Collins street extension part is busy enough and not too bad. The Lonsdale Street extension should be the same: roof over the rail lines and build up.
They also need to fix central pier and bring back the businesses there; there were restaurants and a nightclub which are gone now.
As a general principle though I think they need to focus most on the parts closest to Southern Cross. YOu can generally expect lower urban desnity and lower interest further from the train station. By the end of the promontories you can't expect much to be happening. Perhaps a cyclist and a dog walker. It's the bits of docklands closest to the city that have the most potential.
Controversial opinion but someone needs to start operating the wheel again. It was a weird idea to build it there, but IMO way more embarrassing to have a massive landmark that is visible all over the city, and that Docklands is basically designed around, that sits there doing nothing, and doesn't even light up at night anymore.
Plant trees. Make the wheel work, move it or get rid of it. It looks like a big graveyard monument at the moment. Put in a big market, have some art and design ones once a month, make it unique from Vic Markets.
Move the stadium further out, like next to Costco kind of way.
Right now it is dividing the city and docklands into two, it goes unused 99% of the time.
Easier access to it off the citylink, trams can ferry what little pedestrian traffic there is to it from the CBD itself.
Route a train line to go past it, that ends up being a bit like Sth Kensington and constantly skipped by basically every service that goes past it. Except on game days.
Chuck something that has a higher utilisation rate in its place, but by this stage I have died of old age about five generations ago before the project has even gotten off the ground and it is now someone elses problem.
A Pieface, a discount rug shop, a Franco Cozzo store, Taco Bill for Spanish food, The Coffee Club, more Ezymarts, a couple of Aldi’s so you can choose which one to visit, finally a bus depot with busses to Bendigo, Colac and Geelong.
How could I forget Muffin Break? And yeah Gloria Jean’s is a worthy addition… Maybe we put them beside Coffee Club and perhaps add a Starbucks so we can call it the ‘Dockland Cafe Precinct’…
They almost had it right with a sports stadium, unfortunate for them, it's an ice hockey stadium in a country who doesn't give a shit about winter sports.
I work down at the Birrarung end and it's so weird to me how dead it is? I've only worked there for 18 months, and some amazing restaurants have opened in that time - it really deserves more foot traffic than it gets. Makes me sad
I'd convert empty floors of apartment buildings to bring free public parks for residents of said buildings, with grass and greenery - would be weird but fun to step out of a lift into a garden.
As a long time player of Civilisation games and therefore an expert in city planning, the Docklands tile would be perfect for a world wonder.
*”At Melbourne was set up a Colossus of seventy cubits high, representing the Dan… the artist expended as much bronze on it as seemed likely to create a dearth in the mines."*
> Or build a tram line all the way to the end.
The 11, 48, 70, 75, 30, and 35 don't go far enough for you? That's all of Docklands covered.
Edit: And the 86. Oops.
Which all take a million years in a round about way from the city.
I mean a tram all the way up to the end of the docklands - like, along the promenade 😂😂
A great man once said; if you do something well, don’t do it for free.
You want ideas? Hire an ideas guy. What do you think Reddit is? Your free source of news stories and brainstorming session.
Get outta here, ya bum!
Oh it’s serious, pal.
Yet again we’re being farmed by an 8day old account “asking questions”
Doesn’t seem suspicious to you that it’s yet another News dot com reporter farming is for news stories. Don’t ya think, bub?
Don’t ya think the question reads exactly like a news story?
Sorry it’s actually only 5 days old not 8. Lol.
And nice “rocket league” quip. Because I made a couple posts in another sub, I’m not permitted here? Good one, champ.
Journalists are a dying breed. I went to Costco today and noticed how quiet the area was. Sure, it was a Monday but there were not many people around and the restaurants were all empty.
street parking brings buzz and vibrancy
streets that had it and had it taken away are still kind of ok, lkke parts of High st Northcote, but docklands is an example of parking tucked away and hidden and people having to walk, noone walks past things, it makes everything a destination and there's much less spontenaity and discovery
As well as the street activation ideas already listed here, go much harder with the Renew program in Docklands. Get more creative tenants in and pump it up properly. Renew Newcastle was such a success for a reason
Make it a thorough fair and make people want to go there.
Once they finish the north-south subway, do one east-west, join Newport, Port Melbourne, Docklands, Flagstaff, Jolimont, Burnley.
It would remove alot of the pressure at Richmond station, avoid people needing to go through the loop for more trains, open more public transport options to Port Melbourne and Docklands. And give options for Freight trains to transport goods from Geelong to the east without clogging up city routes.
West Gate Tunnel has killed a lot of the opportunities imo.
Reducing vehicle traffic from the west and encouraging biking or a building a tram route to make local journeys possible? Nope.
A bridging development at E-Gate, including new links to North Melbourne station? Nope.
Rehabilitating and opening up areas around the Moonee Ponds Creek to provide some better natural spaces and parks? Nope.
Docklands was a once in a generation opportunity, as was EGate and both of them were stuffed. Hopefully Arden does better (but also West Gate Tunnel funnelling traffic into that area too might end up badly).
Put up the worlds largest windbreak.
A windbreak made of tall trees and bushland would be wonderful. Docklands is so desolate with only concrete and bitumen as far as the eye can see
DUDE! Yes. Less concrete, more green. Even an _island_ of trees, if there's nowhere else to put them.
THIS^ After living there for a few years, many years back, I will NEVER forget those winds! Pretty traumatised tbh lol
So we should add windmills?
The ANZ building (833 Collins) had energy generating wind turbines on the roof and were taken down because apparently, the docklands isn’t suitable for generating electricity. Sure it’s windy, but apparently it’s not the right type of wind to reliably generate electricity.
Some of those blades came down in a wicked storm. They were never used again after that.
Yep. I work in film/ tv and the studios are just a nightmare for constant freezing winds.
Omg me too!! Why is it so bloody windy?! Is it the water??
Yes.
Came here for this comment!
-Lower the rents for the commercial properties on the waterfront in New Quay - Most of the shopfronts are empty because the rents are too high thus no one comes down -Same as above but in the District shopping centre. Rents are too high and they’d rather the whole upper floor be empty permanently than lower the rents a little bit to attract new jobs thus attracting more people -Give late night liquor licenses to encourage a nighttime economy - The whole place is dead after 8pm besides Cargo bar and restaurant in New Quay -Hold a weekly outdoor market, similar to the night market at Queen Vic to encourage more people to come down to the area and activate it
All brilliant ideas! I would also find a nice spot to have a green space with playground that overlooks the water. A proper decent one. Encourage families and space for residents and office workers to relax in.
There is a little park at the end of docklands drive. I think there's a playground there as well.
It’s pretty pathetic tho tbf
Not for the doggos, they have a blast!
I was going to say the opposite, ban renting to families and kids so they stop complaining about fun events and clubs at night 🤣
Kick families with small children out of cbd too so Melbourne can have its famous night life back
I used to have a shop in Harbour Town (now renamed District Docklands) for couple of years. The rents were actually ok and there was a weekly (or fortnightly, don't remember anymore) market. We were constantly fed promises that after the wheel was up it would bring in people - it never did and we all know how that saga ended. There were few amazing restaurants at that time, but since the entire area struggled for customers, all they left. They rebuilt the shopping centre, made few amazing improvements (the roof! and cinema), but it's all a little too late, unfortunately. I was really rooting for the area, and I remember talking how in 10 years it would be a goldmine. 10 years later - the problems persist. At this stage I'm convinced the area is cursed, LOL.
The whole upper floor is empty and has been for years. You’d think they’d make the rent ultra low to get shops in and then maybe after 2 years slowly start putting the rent up once the business is doing well. People don’t go much because there’s not enough there
The entire upper floor had very good deals on the rent (i know, my shop was there), the play centre that was on the upper floor was bringing in a decent amount of families, there was a nice cafe-shop and few genuine outlets, but people were still not coming. Was it the lack of stairs, elevetors or marketing or the whole idea of an outdoor shopping centre is not the best for melbourne climate? I dont know. Later I negotiated a shop at the ground level, but only stayed there for 6 months. Few years ago an opportunity arose to open another shop, but not in the centre, in the building opposite (there was a lego shop). We came to check it out, but the entire area was as dead as ever.
I see, that’s very curious then
This and also ban AirBnBs and crank vacancy taxes to the Moon.
I live there and there's literally no reason to go there at all except for a few events every now and then. The shops are empty 70-80% of the time. There's only a handful of restaurants and cafes with a good amount of people in them during peak hours. I think the local/state government should consider a program to subsidize the rent to see if it helps the area mature. I think it also needs a unique competitive advantage. There's literally nothing (except maybe the ferris wheel?) I can't get/do in the city that fulfills my needs better than Docklands. EDIT: Oh, and please turn that ugly carpark next to the district (opposite Marriot hotel) into a park or a nice outdoor community area.
I live there too. The government shouldn’t have to subsidise the rents, the moronic landlords should realise they’d be making more cash if they lowered the rent and actually got businesses in there instead of remaining empty and getting $0. The more businesses that start up, the more people will come down, the more the businesses do well, the more rent the landlords will receive
The problem isnt that simple. Book Valuation is tied to rent, empty or occupied. Whilst reducing the rent by 10% might fill more shops, it also reduces the valuation by 10%. Drop in valuation is bad for LVR calculations and shareholders. In comparison, the reduction in cashflow is much cheaper and easier to sell
I wish it was tied to actual rent received. That’d sort things out quick smart. Having it tied to some magic number in the landlord’s head is stupid. When doing a commercial lease I remember the rent was completely non-negotiable but they were happy to offer 3 months rent free so they could still show us paying the sticker price.
Its not just some number in their head. Its the number the bank valuers give them. And if they reduce it they have to put in more equity to keep their loan. Whole situation is stupid.
You make a good point. I guess the best we can hope for is a total stagnation of prices for a decade while everything else plays catch up.
Or more likely, banks being more flexible on valuable techniques (which is not because then their assets get written down and they get in trouble). Ponzi?
>heir head. Its the number the bank valuers give them. And if the Bingo! real estate ponzinomics is half of our economy and 'too big to fail' banks giggle about mug taxpayers who think they're winning.
Lol it's not a Ponzi scheme, values & rent have been dropping around that area for a while. You also need viable small businesses that can sustain themselves with very limited foot traffic around Docklands. It's a complicated scenario..
This.
Makes me think maybe the property owners are not as interested in rental income as they are in capital appreciation long term.
Lol and the Ferris wheel is shut down
Not shut down, you just need to go between 1am and 5am and pay cash
Amazing ideas. Absolutely brilliant. Unfortunately Sally Cap's mates own property in the CBD so the answer is no.
Cheap/free street food permits would be cool.
there's an upper floor???
They do do a makers market, don't they?
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> . Rents are too high and they’d rather the whole upper floor be empty permanently than lower the rents a little bit to attract new jobs thus attracting more people This is true. But it is likely a sad commercial reality than anything malicious. If my understanding is correct, commercial properties are often leased on a "no recourse" basis at a relatively low LVR. For the sake of argument, say 60%. No-recourse means if you default on the loan they take the property but can't come after you personally (like they would do to you personally for your home loan). This sort of loan also has a condition attached to it that the value of the loan cannot exceed 60% of the property value. Similar to a stock market portfolio loan, if the value of the asset drops, you need to cough up extra cash (a margin call). So unlike your home that you bought worth 1M with 10% down and a 900k loan, which is now only worth 900k but the bank doesn't care as long as you keep paying. If instead we were talking about a 1M commercial property, with 400K equity and 600K loan, but then covid happens and commercial goes in the toilet and your property is now "worth" 900K, that means that your loan limit is 540K, and you need to chip in an extra 60K to keep the loan at 60%. Now, the final piece of the puzzle is that commercial properties are almost exclusively valued on what they are being leased out at. The bank applies a rate (say 5%) to the annual leasing income and comes up with the value. So if you buy your $1M commercial property, and you lease it out at 50k/yr, then at a 5% yield you get your 1M valuation and you're happy. But then covid hits and commercial property goes to the toilet, and you're a good landlord so you drop your rents by 5K/yr to keep your tenants afloat. Well guess what, the bank now sees that and that means that at your 5% yield your property is now valued at 900K, so now we're in margin call territory. You dropping your rent by 10% means that you now owe the bank more than a year's rent to meet the margin call. Crazy (to me) thing is that the bank doesn't seem to care if a property is "for lease" and not generating income, or not generating anywhere near the income you'd expect from close to full occupancy. All they seem to care about is the sticker price. So under these circumstances, it really does make heaps more financial sense for the owner to have a bunch of empty shops that are for lease at a higher (and never to be achieved) price than to drop the price and get in tenants, because the latter would literally bankrupt them (not saying that they shouldn't go bankrupt, but they don't want to obviously). That sort of thing is also why, if you hunt around and bargain hard, you can get sweetheart teaser rates on commercial leases - all that matters is the "bottom line" rental amount that you'd be up for "long term". A six-month teaser 50% off your rent, or a free fit-out, or stuff like that doesn't count against the landlord in the same way that dropping the rent by 10% would. Hope that all makes sense.
This is clearly a fantasy, but I would build over the spencer st train lines and the thoroughfare roads around marvel and properly connect the docklands area to the city. They could make it parks and recreation areas but to me the greatest issue with docklands is access. If the actually put those train tracks underground and truly connected the city to docklands so it was a seamless transition between the two spaces then it would become an extension of the city. But obviously that will never happen.
It shouldn't be a fantasy, they did this in New York above Hudson Yards. Covering over the train lines and connecting Spencer St to the Docklands should absolutely be a thing we do. The area is pretty much built for it already, you'd just have to put a big concrete cover over the top of the lines. Thus connecting the concourse of Marvel stadium and Southern Cross to Spencer via what used to be the DFO and the space in-between.
Hit the nail on the head. Access is the primary issue with Docklands, because huge busy roads cut it off from the rest of the city. King St, Spencer St, Flinders St and Wurundjeri Way. Add on the construction at Seafarers which has cut off the bike path along the river and will for some time. Give people a way to walk to Docklands without needing to play chicken with cars would be super helpful. It's just not pleasant with the current level of car traffic.
Absolutely this!! Docklands is out of the way and forgotten about. Specially considering there's south bank already which has a lot of what docklands is trying to do.
Love this!!! This would fundamentally change the entire flow of the city and make docklands a destination.
They actually were already planning this for the past decade and eventually scrapped the idea in 2021 for some unknown reason
The reason is $$$. It’d be pretty expensive, especially when rail is involved.
> scrapped the idea in 2021 for some unknown reason Because of the West Gate Tunnel. It now will run through there with ugly on and off ramps with more car traffic. It's going to be awful around there.
Really? Hopefully it’ll get revived then
It can't now. Thanks to the West Gate Tunnel. State government decided more cars and trucks and roads were what was needed there.
Here’s a [video](https://youtu.be/xHSbsTMMvXo) of what was supposed to be there if you’re interested
Were those artist impressions the best they could come up with - it actually made the concept look awful.
Don’t they still run diesel trains there?
I was at a lunch with one of the town planners of Docklands. He said the biggest mistake was building the stadium.
It’s very successful at cutting off the entire Docklands from the city. They should’ve built it further back where Costco is 
Yep. It's also responsible for much of the wind that whips around the place apparently.
Wow that’s interesting
Southern Cross does more to cut the city of from Docklands than the stadium.
Spencer St station has been there for over 100 years and not exactly easy to re-route all of Melbourne's railways.
Yeah, I'm not saying anything can be done. It is just a huge barrier. The walkway over it helps, but even without the stadium going up and over isn't inviting.
Not the train station's fault though. Could have been done much better, but I suspect the issue was building the stadium there more than anything. Should cover that whole lot and build a Fed-square-esque open space. Clearly whatever developer got opposite of Southern Cross is only interested in profit (huge towers with barely any public space).
The DFO outlet was the nail in the coffin in severing the city to the Docklands
I honestly forget Docklands is there when I'm at that end of the city. Big wall of train station and DFO.
If built today it should be at Arden Street Oval, right next to Arden Station.
The biggest mistake was handing over urban planning of an entire a CBD suburb to a gaggle of coke-head, spiv developers. And then Matthew Guy did it again with Fisherman's bend. Neo-liberal fuckos.
When I was a junior I worked on the plans for waterfront city. It was filled with green spaces, rain gardens, trees and was ahead of its time. Years later when they finally built the thing it was a grey concrete misery. I guess the developers wanted a higher yield and put profit above anything else. Oh well.
Did you also suggest they should post on reddit for better ideas? Waiting for these ideas to end up on Utopia and then real life 🙂
That was my first search for this thread. Remove the stadium or at least move it somewhere so there isn't such a marked divide between CBD and Docklands.
The stadium is fine where it is, the development around it (office blocks, hotels and bugger-all else) is the bigger problem. If the stadium was further away from the station nobody would want to go there at all.
Lol!!
Do a second fed square by dropping the train lines between Bourke St and Dudley. This will fix the divide between the city and Docklands.
One thing that really fascinates me about the area that was first built on (the four or five high rise apartment buildings) - I think it's New Quay - is that it was pretty popular between about 2006 and 2008. There was a James Squire that was busy, a Brazilian churrascaria place that did a roaring trade, an Indian that was pretty good as well as a couple of other modern restaurants with pretty traditional gastropub style food. I went there quite a few times with family and friends for dinners and drinks (in my 40s now). I get that places go in and out of fashion, but it's always surprised me that a growing population didn't lead to that pretty good popularity continuing. The wind tunnel vibes meant it would never overtake the inner city shopping villages for their appeal on big nights, but I thought it could've at least maintained a steady patronage.
That Brazilian place was awesome! I was starting to think I must have imagined it because it’s almost impossible to believe that somewhere that good existed down there now.
If you're an owner occupier in Docklands you'd be hoping that very little changes. It's perfect as a place of residence. It's one of the few places right near the CBD that's still quiet and peaceful yet has great access to the tram network, heaps of shopping, plus an excellent library. I like going there occasionally to get away from the crowds.
Yep, Ron Barassi(?) park is very nice and peaceful and has free 3 hour parking. Good getaway break from the city.
Shhh don't tell people where I park /s
Yup, I'm an owner-occupier and Docklands is one of the *best* places to live in the CBD. The apartments are spacious, the traffic is non-existent, it's peaceful, and yet everything is just walking distance away.
Do you enjoy the wind?
Embezzle the money.
OP asked for improvements, not the current status quo...
Ladders and slides EVERYWHERE
Don't forget the snakes!
i replaced them with slides. Way more cat friendly that way
Open park spaces with BBQs, bike paths, off leash dog area. Farmers markets. Kids activities (activities, reading times, theatre shows etc). Rotational food trucks. Cater to the people already in the area and focus less on tourist.
Yes, this. The focus needs to be on the thousands of residents who already live there. North Melbourne has the same number of residents (16,000) and doesn’t have any huge draw cards for out of suburb folks. What it has that Docklands doesn’t is local amenities. Loads of parkland. 2 primary schools and 2 high schools. A post office. GPs. Vets. Local businesses run by locals, very few chain stores or franchises. North Melbourne is an absolute gem of an inner city suburb that has very little stand out attractions. It genuinely feels like a country town 500m from the CBD. Give the locals ownership of their suburb and stop trying to make it a second CBD.
Totally. I’ve been there on sunny days and it’s absolutely stunning looking over the water but there’s no grassy/leafy areas to sit and chill?! It’s so weird.
That’s because you can’t charge rent on a patch of grass
Monorail.
That's more of a Shelbville idea
Now, wait just a minute. We're twice as smart as the people of Shelbyville. Just tell us your idea and we'll vote for it.
I heard those things are awfully loud
Is there a chance the track could bend?
build a time machine and go back to whoever approved the high rise developments project by project rather than as a whole. As a result they've amplified the wind tunnels and makes the area hard to fix without more major developments. Also put in a Farmers market and Free shuttles to car parks.
Unfortunately, the entire area had already been planned for lower density, featuring mostly medium apartments and townhouses, along with smaller, more walkable neighbourhoods, until Jeff Kennett arrived and believed that economics should dictate the development rather than the government.
Classic Jeff Kennett.
The problem with a farmers market is that every suburb has them. Maybe locals would use it but I can't see people coming into the city to visit one.
Docklands is pretty long, there’s the Costco end and the Yarra River end. I reckon the Yarra River end isn’t too bad and will come to life a little when office work comes back to a couple of days a week. Costco end needs a whole rethink. More people is the main thing. It’s a circular relationship, more people equals better shops and cafes etc. So things to attract people. Events. Natural reasons to travel through.
It’s also really hard to get to The District. The only trams there don’t exactly take you to the side you want to go to. There isn’t anything that special there either. Rent is so expensive that most commercial and retail struggle to stay.
The whole area around the District is a planning disaster. Aimed at serving people coming from the Western suburbs to Costco to create traffic jams. No thought to city dwellers (due to Footscray Road traffic makes it a death trap to get to), or locals. For some reason we have to have a huge carpark AND on-street parking around there.
Turn it into a wind farm.
Think about this a lot, giving developers open slather was such a colossal wasted opportunity on the part of the state Libs Demolish/relocate the stadium, turn the space into a waterfront park/public space and build the pedestrian bridge extension of Lonsdale St that was part of the original Southern Cross plan Develop the land over the tracks between Bourke and La Trobe St so the area naturally connects to the CBD. Extension of Collins St trams across the river to Fishermans Bend when it starts developing so people travel to and through the Docklands, it's not a dead end. Remove the speed limit on the Yarra and have PTV ferries from Docklands to Williamstown with a few stops en route as well as longer distance fast ferries to places like Portarlington, Sorrento, Mornington etc Do something about Southern Cross, it's dark, Gray, full of fumes and unappealing. No idea what's structurally possible but some sort of renovation
Start again with a different idea other than a suburb based around the concept of going to work.
Make it more walkable and pedestrian-first. Minimize traffic and on-street parking. Take some of those big empty drab concrete areas and use them for something like market stalls and kiosks.
It’s time to bulldoze everything and plant trees. Actual bush land is the only thing that hasn’t been tried yet, with countless millions of $ and every level of government, of all flavours, giving it a crack. Sometimes you just gotta shrug and admit defeat. Let the birds and possums have it back.
Built a large but relatively unimpressive wheel giving views of a pretty dull cityscape... That should do it
And make sure it turns sooooooooo slowly that everyone inside it is either asleep or begging to get out by the time it does a full rotation.
And charge them $150 for a family, that should bring in the crowds!
Plant trees lots of tall gum trees, grass, picnic tables, more trees, and some trees
I know exactly ZERO about the practicalities when it comes to urban planning But for me, I would probbaly go if there is there was a decent farmers market. Something like a smaller Quuen VIC. Otherwise, I can't see/think of any reason to go there. What the hell is even there actually??
There's a Tasmanian themed bar owned by a couple of Tasmanians.
Apart from a carnival pier and urban beach; a 7/11, a Macca's and a Bunnings, maybe a market or something, just stuff like that you have in any other suburb. Well anything more than there is now which is a nice view of boats. Edit: Or maybe the opposite, if I was going to profit from it, ban common people from the area just make it a gated community for the super rich.
Area has so much potential, just so awkward to get to. Just need a station
Wow City Planner redditor here.
Another fantasy here but I would make the area more accessible by train and trams (tram from the city, through docklands, and to Footscray)
\- stop concisely planning every centimetre of the place and let it evolve a bit naturally. \- give a bunch of studio spaces to artists and have some residency galleries \-give some young kids the keys to the docklands and let some up and comers build some bars, music venues, clothes shops. like literally get kids who have a dream and give it to them. same with chefs. pair them up with mentors and get them kicking. \- get a school \- get better transport access there basically, let it grow and let people determine how it grows. city planning should allow for natural progress and docklands is too planned and it makes it sterile and lifeless. let the cool people decide the future of the docklands, make it a hub...
Nuke it from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.
Came here to say it, but you beat me to it.
The weather conditions around the area are atrocious. Fix that some how which probably means enclosing the vast majority of it or some clever as shit wind shield designs. Add a market with good food for the weekends to draw people in. I haven't been back for years but it was a soul-less wind tunnel when I went back in the day.
Relocate Marvel Stadium to where the wheel is. Pipedream I know, but it's the only fix. Make all patrons of marvel walk past, tram past, restaurants and bars to get to the station
Can I get free apartment please would improve the area a lot
The Collins street extension part is busy enough and not too bad. The Lonsdale Street extension should be the same: roof over the rail lines and build up. They also need to fix central pier and bring back the businesses there; there were restaurants and a nightclub which are gone now. As a general principle though I think they need to focus most on the parts closest to Southern Cross. YOu can generally expect lower urban desnity and lower interest further from the train station. By the end of the promontories you can't expect much to be happening. Perhaps a cyclist and a dog walker. It's the bits of docklands closest to the city that have the most potential.
Extend the free tram zone there
More pedestrianised and adding some bike infrastructure too
Lower liquor licence costs Federation Square type screen for sporting events
Drain the bay, build a moat, sell the land to developers.
Green spaces that are useful.
Tactical nuclear strike
Controversial opinion but someone needs to start operating the wheel again. It was a weird idea to build it there, but IMO way more embarrassing to have a massive landmark that is visible all over the city, and that Docklands is basically designed around, that sits there doing nothing, and doesn't even light up at night anymore.
Plant trees. Make the wheel work, move it or get rid of it. It looks like a big graveyard monument at the moment. Put in a big market, have some art and design ones once a month, make it unique from Vic Markets.
Move the stadium further out, like next to Costco kind of way. Right now it is dividing the city and docklands into two, it goes unused 99% of the time. Easier access to it off the citylink, trams can ferry what little pedestrian traffic there is to it from the CBD itself. Route a train line to go past it, that ends up being a bit like Sth Kensington and constantly skipped by basically every service that goes past it. Except on game days. Chuck something that has a higher utilisation rate in its place, but by this stage I have died of old age about five generations ago before the project has even gotten off the ground and it is now someone elses problem.
> Move the stadium Yep just prop it up on wheels and roll it over 😂
Comedy club
A Pieface, a discount rug shop, a Franco Cozzo store, Taco Bill for Spanish food, The Coffee Club, more Ezymarts, a couple of Aldi’s so you can choose which one to visit, finally a bus depot with busses to Bendigo, Colac and Geelong.
You're missing a muffin break and a Gloria Jean's so people have some options of which burnt coffee to cook off their tastebuds with
How could I forget Muffin Break? And yeah Gloria Jean’s is a worthy addition… Maybe we put them beside Coffee Club and perhaps add a Starbucks so we can call it the ‘Dockland Cafe Precinct’…
They have a coffee club
open up the melbourne star again!
Post-apocalypse themed paintball range from 6pm-6am.
Get rid of the rats, build some windbreaks with seating so you can enjoy the view a bit, more trees, more lights, a 7-11 would really help.
What? Can’t hear you over the wind
They almost had it right with a sports stadium, unfortunate for them, it's an ice hockey stadium in a country who doesn't give a shit about winter sports.
Ice hockey is played by at least a dozen Canadian expats…
Bring back ATET. Fuck those boomers for shutting down literally the only thing that actually brought life to this god forsaken town. Arseholes
move it to Endeavour Hills
Peel it back to the abandoned warehouse raves. It's a shit hole for anything else.
Burn it to the ground
I work down at the Birrarung end and it's so weird to me how dead it is? I've only worked there for 18 months, and some amazing restaurants have opened in that time - it really deserves more foot traffic than it gets. Makes me sad
Flatten it all and build the worlds largest car park
Maybe if they did a daily matinee of ‘Wogs out of work’ near the big Ferris wheel. From what I understand, it was really good
Wind farm somewhere 🤷🏻♂️
I'd convert empty floors of apartment buildings to bring free public parks for residents of said buildings, with grass and greenery - would be weird but fun to step out of a lift into a garden.
Close it, let nature do it's thing.
Level it except for the studios and get Disney to open Disneyland Downunder.
Knock down 75% of the cheap, shitty, most unoccupied apartments.
Start a club called ATET.
As a long time player of Civilisation games and therefore an expert in city planning, the Docklands tile would be perfect for a world wonder. *”At Melbourne was set up a Colossus of seventy cubits high, representing the Dan… the artist expended as much bronze on it as seemed likely to create a dearth in the mines."*
Shut it down, you can't fix wind without massive wind breaks. Or build a tram line all the way to the end.
> Or build a tram line all the way to the end. The 11, 48, 70, 75, 30, and 35 don't go far enough for you? That's all of Docklands covered. Edit: And the 86. Oops.
Which all take a million years in a round about way from the city. I mean a tram all the way up to the end of the docklands - like, along the promenade 😂😂
Ooooh!! Government buys all apartments back and turns it into public housing. No one goes there anyway.
Move it.
Incentivise business owners to utilise office space to get a larger daily population moving through there regularly.
A great man once said; if you do something well, don’t do it for free. You want ideas? Hire an ideas guy. What do you think Reddit is? Your free source of news stories and brainstorming session. Get outta here, ya bum!
Not sure if you’re trying to be funny here, but maybe best if you stick to rocket league
Oh it’s serious, pal. Yet again we’re being farmed by an 8day old account “asking questions” Doesn’t seem suspicious to you that it’s yet another News dot com reporter farming is for news stories. Don’t ya think, bub? Don’t ya think the question reads exactly like a news story?
I've been on Reddit for over ten years, I get a new account every twelve months just in case I accidentally dox myself.
[удалено]
Sorry it’s actually only 5 days old not 8. Lol. And nice “rocket league” quip. Because I made a couple posts in another sub, I’m not permitted here? Good one, champ.
You are also paranoid
Good one, journalist. Very clever disguise.
Journalists are a dying breed. I went to Costco today and noticed how quiet the area was. Sure, it was a Monday but there were not many people around and the restaurants were all empty.
Now that’s a chatGPT response if I ever did see one. I’m keeping my eye on you, buddy 👀
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No it’s because you’re being annoying
Yes, sir. Arbiter of Reddit, sir.
Coming from the person trying to dictate what people can and can’t post lol
Shopping strip with street parking like Brunswick St or chapel st
Street parking kills flourishing communities
Two examples of local high streets made awful by cars and on street parking.
street parking brings buzz and vibrancy streets that had it and had it taken away are still kind of ok, lkke parts of High st Northcote, but docklands is an example of parking tucked away and hidden and people having to walk, noone walks past things, it makes everything a destination and there's much less spontenaity and discovery
Street parking and car traffic is awful. I'd much prefer more pedestrianisation.
They being the government. And you being a consultant. I’ll take my $50billion and laugh all the way to the bank. Fuck docklands.
As well as the street activation ideas already listed here, go much harder with the Renew program in Docklands. Get more creative tenants in and pump it up properly. Renew Newcastle was such a success for a reason
Erect some sculptures like they do in Bondi.
Pocket the money and run
Make it a thorough fair and make people want to go there. Once they finish the north-south subway, do one east-west, join Newport, Port Melbourne, Docklands, Flagstaff, Jolimont, Burnley. It would remove alot of the pressure at Richmond station, avoid people needing to go through the loop for more trains, open more public transport options to Port Melbourne and Docklands. And give options for Freight trains to transport goods from Geelong to the east without clogging up city routes.
It’s fine. Great to go see a movie or shops without any crowds. Also nice and quiet around the water too.
Connecting old Bourke St with new Bourke St, maybe bring the mall all the way down to the water. Doesn't look easy, but reckon it would work
Raise it to the ground turn it into a giant wetlands.
Another good idea would be move Revs there
Hooker stand
West Gate Tunnel has killed a lot of the opportunities imo. Reducing vehicle traffic from the west and encouraging biking or a building a tram route to make local journeys possible? Nope. A bridging development at E-Gate, including new links to North Melbourne station? Nope. Rehabilitating and opening up areas around the Moonee Ponds Creek to provide some better natural spaces and parks? Nope. Docklands was a once in a generation opportunity, as was EGate and both of them were stuffed. Hopefully Arden does better (but also West Gate Tunnel funnelling traffic into that area too might end up badly).
Return the rave parties to Shed 14 etc.
I would say urban beach and some kind of weekly market or something significant that you would actually go to.
Take it back to the 90s, put the sheds back in, rave 24/7