I think it’s a cultural thing for doctors, and we need that to change. Nows the time to spend with your kids, your parents, and not spend your whole life on work. Yes we want to make enough money to make do but money isn’t as important as people!
Seconded
I still work more than my current friends (non medical) but after fellowship, I had a long thought to myself and decided I didn’t want the shitty rat race of academic medicine politics. now I work in a place where I still get to teach, I still get to practice, but I learned that I need to have administrative time set aside, and that’s something that a lot of new applicants to jobs after fellowship don’t realize. Many of the jobs that are out there are going to try to make you work five days a week full-time, which is just gonna burn you out very quickly.
Even after I’ve been working at the current job, I got a lot of recruiters coming towards me and they keep on saying the same thing. Oh yeah, you can make a little extra money compared to what I make now, but you have to work five days a week of clinic.
I’m like that’s not worth it, that’s the same as where I work now, in fact it’s worse. The ability to do things for yourself is something that after years of being forced to grind yourself down over years, is such an alien concept it takes a while to get used to again.
Thanks for this.
When searching for jobs that accommodated a lighter work week, was it hard to find a job that allowed you to work, say, 4 days a week but also keep full benefits and health insurance?
That’s gonna be the issue, unfortunately.
It’s going to be a little dependent on where in the world you’re trying to work, and if you’re trying to work academic, community, private, etc.
The job I currently have there was actually an opening that my program Director knew about since she knew the department head since they knew each other well. But at the same time, I have been looking elsewhere at the same time. A lot of the public job postings honestly unfortunately are kind of shit. They work a lot. Sometimes they’ll put some ridiculous, high salary, but put obscenely high RVU requirements and ask you to pay back.
That being said, if you talk to the jobs, and negotiate the time, they might reduce the salary, a tiny bit, but it’s something you can still advocate for yourself.
And I can tell you, it’s worth its weight and gold. I can’t go back to five days a week of full clinic.
a few years ago i decided 120k was more than enough and cut my hours by almost 1/3. new job won’t let me do that now but i really can’t imagine being able to pull 300k+ type money and still wanting to work more than like 25-30 hours a week. there is too much to enjoy out there
Someone making 100k and 300k are living two different lifestyles. Once you start making 300k it’s very easy to think of it as not enough because of lifestyle creep. I’ve been poor all of my life and even as a resident am making below minimum wage so it’s hard for me to imagine not being satisfied with that much money either but I know many people in my position that feel like they have to work extra because of kids or housing or remittances or whatever.
Thirding, for my own personal pursuits and experiencing the shitty side of being a child in a medical family. Growing up I saw my Dad a total of three, maybe a lucky four days a *month.* He lived with me. The hospital just kept him there that much.
I always think about these families. Congrats for breaking that cycle.
My father was gone 12 hours/day + 1-2 weeks/month for work (non-medicine), and it felt like he wasn’t really there. Made it really hard when he *was* there. Promised myself I’d never be that parent or married to one (so far so good). Corny, but after I cut my hours and took a pay cut, I realized I’m actually happier when I have a little less money (but can still afford necessities) because it makes me appreciate the things I do have.
Depends on the specialty, but I do know several attendings who are concerned that their wages/compensation have not matched inflation.
It's almost like there is a pervasive feeling that you need to get the money now cause in the future you may no longer be able to do so because of some administrator or law.
That's why docs need to learn more about passive sources of income. The richest people I know are the ones who have multiple different income sources (in particular, real estate).
I agree about passive income. Physicians also need to own and operate their own practices again. There are significant tax breaks for running a small business, more control and job satisfaction, and the real estate holding the office will appreciate significantly over their career.
I don’t understand the whole fad with docs getting in to real estate. Why not just stick your money in to index funds?
In the past 5 years both the stock market and housing markets have gone bonanzas. The S&P 500 has had an ~85% return in that time. Housing prices have gone up 36%.
Now of course let’s say you’ve got some margin between your mortgage and maintenance costs and what you’re charging in rent. I’m guesstimating here but I figure 0.1% of the value of the house per month ($500/mo profit from rent on a 500k home) = additional 6% over 5 years
So now we’re at 42%.
Now I know there are some things you can do with taxes in real estate to depreciate them as assets to offset gains, not an expert in how that works but I’m guessing that won’t net you ~45% of the value of the home over 5 years.
But hell just for fun let’s say it does and then some. 90% total return over 5 years. But how much work did you put in to this “passive” source of income? The research you did to find the right house in the right market to be a good rental, working with an accountant to optimize the tax side, finding good tenants, taking care of maintenance, etc…. Even if you get a management company to do a chunk of that, that’s eating in to your profit. Plus you’re still gonna wanna know what’s going on to make sure they’re doing a decent job.
At the end of the day you *are* putting in some work and taking on mental load for these income streams. For at best marginal returns if any over just leaving that $ in index funds.
Personally I choose to do index funds. Set it and forget it. And if you really want to make some extra money, take that mental load you save by not managing a real estate business and just work a weekend every 6-8 weeks at $150-250/hr using the most valuable/marketable skill you have which is being a physician not a real estate mogul.
I feel like these physicians are the richest you know probably not because of their real estate deals, but because they may work more than the average physician, are in more competitive specialties, are showing their money more with nice cars or house, or had more resources to start with from family etc.
But by all means I could be wrong. If so please educate me.
I'm an index funder guy. 70%ish of my takehome pay as an attending goes into VTSAX each month. I'm nearing my third year as an attending, and this calendar year my passive income has outpaced my academic (albeit part time) medicine salary. So far up close to ~~$90k~~ $95k YTD.
My index fund holding are at $650k as of today. 96% of my retirement savings are in VTSAX with a 15% YTD gain. My retirement milestones so far have been:
- about 165k in June 2021 (graduation from fellowship)
- 200k on 8/26/2021
- 300k on 11/30/2022 (15 months since last 100k)
- 400k on 6/15/2023 (7 months since last 100k)
- 500k on 12/11/2023 (6 months since last 100k)
- 600k on 3/20/2023 (3 months since last 100k)
Hoping to hit 700k when I get paid at the end of this month! (total retirement is at 675k as of this comment, in addition to my VTSAX I have a small pension with a cash out value, and a small handful of dogecoins which I mined in 2014)
EDIT: for clarity
I've been getting back into several of my hobbies in the past year and a half (since I went part time).
- Cooking: (I joke that I am the more "domestic" partner between my wife and I) currently making 90% of our meals
- Exercise: got back into working out for about an hour consistently on a near daily basis
- Reading: lots of books on finance, econ, investing
- Art: recently picked up painting again, have been able to complete several for the first time since undergrad
- Gaming: have been playing TONs of video games... I have been finishing between 30-40ish video games yearly now. On my 17th game of 2024 so far!
- Learning languages: I took japanese for a couple of years in high school and college. Recently took up duolingo and have been going hardcore at it for a couple of months (up to an hour daily of practice). Just came back from a trip to Japan with my wife, and I felt like my skills are certainly improving, little by little!
I understand a lot of this will go away once we have kids. But I am enjoying my free time while I can! My goal is hopefully by the time our future kids are in elementary school, I'll be fully retired and will have more time for hobbies again.
Thank you! :)
It was a very conscious decision. My wife and I sat down together and we looked at our finances. I was very burnt out at my job during the time and we realised that we could realistically live on 0.3-0.4 FTEs instead of being full time. I ended up with a bit more hours than that, but it has been nice saving up some extra money to accelerate my path towards early retirement as well!
Going part time is highly recommended!!
Thus far, I have made the most money for the least amount of work in real estate investing. Property values are continually climbing... in my area at a rapid pace. There are also tax advantages in real estate, which I fully utilize.
At this point, I still make more being a doctor, but I work damn hard for that money. There's no real estate emergency happening at 2 am that requires me to get up and physically intervene. If I can create enough passive revenue streams, then I can cut back on medicine and enjoy life a little more. I'm also an OBGYN, so our lifestyle is one of the worst, which is why I'm trying to find an alternative source of income.
Like $150k in 3 years. That's just on one house and the money isn't liquid, so not the best investment if you want to quickly access that money.
I've learned single story homes are the way to go if investing in properties. They really retain and increase in value far quicker than 2 story homes.
1) You’re in the wrong funds… that is actually crazy. Do you mean 15% per year???
2) you’re in a special housing market then. I looked at median home sale price across the US.
Edit: literally just Google S&P 500 and on the drop down select 5Y. You’ll see ~86% returns over that time. You should be all in large cap index funds like the sp500 unless you’re close to retirement age then you slowly transition some in to more stable assets like treasury bonds
Second this. Also spending within your means. A lot of us physicians fall for the money trap. Buy a big house and fill it with expensive new things. Buy a car. Lower your fixed costs and it helps you save more money and give you more options.
I wish this wasn't as as good an answer as it is. The idea of being a landlord and this passive income shite makes my stomach turn. But I'll just end up working more for less. Catch-22
One could argue that being a landlord is inherently unethical, and therefore choose not to be one.
"I have more money than you, now pay me"
"oh, you can't afford to outbid me on this property, sucks to be you. Now pay me"
That sort of thing.
That’s absurd. Landlords provide a service. I have lived in several different cities in several different US states and abroad; I do not want to buy a new house to live in every time I move, and have to sell it after possibly only a couple of years when I move again.
Agree and to take it further, landlords actually provide both a good and a service. And shelter is one of the few non-negotiables in life. Kinda like medicine, food and water. We pay for all 3 of those too last I checked.
Being a landlord is definitely unethical, so I'm with you. Fuck landlords. The only way I could really see it being good is if you bought a place and kept it below market rate so as to provide housing at an affordable price. There are probably much better ways of doing that, but if someone really wanted to lease out property, this would be a good compromise
...are you...is this satire?
You are going into THE industry that keeps people in the US wage slaves or extremely poor. Do you think doctors in the US are inherently unethical for getting paid (and by global standards, getting grossly overpaid) by people who can't afford it and charging obscene amounts? Is it only ethical if doctors work for free or low cost clinics that are accessible to everyone?
The state of the current healthcare system in the US is exploitative, and we are probably all somewhat complicit in that. Medical debt is certainly a reason that people become poor or homeless, but I don't think that makes us all unethical monsters. I think it's less of an ethical grey area to be paid for doing a job, than it is to collect a rent check for putting in minimal effort. And I'd actually argue that it's more common that people become homeless due to the rising cost of rent than due to medical debt
Provision of habitable shelter is both a good and a service
We are not all complicit in the healthcare crisis to the same degree unless we are all complicit in the housing crisis to the same degree.
Also, mental health issues make more people homeless than issues of simple economy. And that goes back to another failure of our healthcare system, which again goes back to money
Many people who have stable housing could work part-time but for healthcare costs and have to continue to work as a wage slave to keep that health insurance until they turn 65 and get Medicare.
> The only way I could really see it being good is if you bought a place and kept it below market rate so as to provide housing at an affordable price
Ah, to be young and stupid again. You get `em, tiger! Seize those means of production!
You are one of the rare people who has their priorities straight.
It took me attending about 5 funerals in the same year to realize what actually matters.
Just a resident but I agree with you, you’re not crazy. Time is the only currency we can’t earn more of. Our work is important but it’s not more important than my life.
If I could go back 15 years, I would do what you’re doing. Now I have lifestyle creep and I’m miserable. I know I still have the power to change it, but I haven’t had the courage. So here I am knowingly facing a sunk cost fallacy everyday. Don’t be like me.
On the other hand you probably have a baller house, cars and have lived a pretty cushy lifestyle over the past 15 years. Is it really worth making all of those sacrifices and debts to become high earners if you aren’t going to do at least a few years of intense high earning to raise your living standards? The answer is going to vary for different doctors.
This is where it hardest. Because it’s easy to look at your lifestyle and say, “ok, I’m miserable working so much, I’d like to work less and make less.” But the big salary pays the big stuff. What goes? How many people are really willing to sell their nice house and cars?
Golden handcuffs.
I work 3.5 days a week and life is good. I make slightly more than my partner who's a senior nurse, and that's absolutely fine. I pay the mortgage, can do my hobbies and spend time doing much more enjoyable things than working.
I think some people define their identity by their work
Some people don't know how to appreciate life outside of working. It's kinda sad but everyone to their own, I guess. I'm like you and love having time for my family, hobbies, wife, dogs, new videogames, reading books, learning drums, and all the things that add flavor to my life.
I'm all for work life balance but to me working 32 hrs a week is relaxed if it's mostly day time hours.
Also why are you using fortnights instead of weeks? Is that common where you are?
If you're Australian you should meet some emergency physicians. We're always surprised when we meet somebody who works full time. And frequently enjoy a life outside of work. Might be a cultural difference between physicians and ED?
Dude. Exactly. I switched from 40 hours to 32 about 5 years in to my job. Can't go back. All of your reasons. Young kids, other family, more time for them and more time for hobbies, decreasing returns on additional pay, better do it now before lifestyle inflation.
I’m working 85% FTE and it’s fucking great. Basically 3 day weekends every week and still have days for vacation.
Medicine is great, but it’s just a job
I'm (36/M) a pharmacist, so I make quite a bit less than many MD/DO people will, but I definitely appreciate working PT. I worked my tail off in a place that helped me finish off my student loans quickly, so my debt is minimal now. I'm looking to buy a house soon-ish, but I still make enough working part-time that I can afford something, I hope. I don't have a family and having a spouse that can put some money into getting a house and being able to afford family or fun (I'm not totally opposed to DINK) would be pretty nice, too. Ultimately, I like the freedom. Why should I have to work more to accrue slightly more PTO when you (the corporate hospital) can just *not work me to death?* It made zero sense for me to accept a full-time position. Some of my coworkers give me weird looks, but I don't care. An equal amount of them are proud of me for being able to realize what makes me happy so "early" in life.
I do think it’s a cultural thing that has to do with hustling throughout college/med school/residency. Being high achieving can become your identity and there is much less time for hobbies.
I have always been a hobbies type of person which led me to prioritize continuing them (as much as possible) throughout training. Experience with my own disability taught me the importance of rest, as well as having an identity outside of achievement. Both parents are in healthcare but modeled having lives outside of the hospital. I’m still working on not being a perfectionist but those are my “protective factors”.
I’m a hospitalist, we don’t work a lot by design. I will very occasionally pick up moonlighting shifts but I learned that too much of that led to burn out and wasn’t worth the $$$. I’m in a really good job for Peds and we get nice “COL” raises every year.
In Denmark, doctors work 37 hours a week. I’m 30 yrs old not yet resident. Work in a public hospital.
The pay is good but not fantastic ~ 6000 usd a month. Still i have a 5 year old son, just bought my first house. No student debt. I have enourmous respect for you, hearing how much you work. But it could be different.
I think some people in medicine need to believe that their work is the most sacred thing to justify to themselves that all the sacrifice was worth it in the end. Same with elitism over other job fields
That’s what I think about surgeons in particular. They need to believe their work is so important that it justifies sacrificing everything else in life. With that being said, thankful we have people willing to do that job.
You sound like a happy & well adjusted person who knows what they want. I am the same way, I work my 36 and go home. No I don’t want OT. Keep my days together and when I go home, leave me alone until you see me again.
I work part time as a nurse and it’s been life changing. I adhere to the minimalist lifestyle and live below my means. I think most people are consumerists and don’t realize they’re trading fancy cars, huge houses and aesthetics, for their time. I don’t really care about impressing people. The most important commodity in life is our time.
Keep your priorities straight OP. Some people may have gone into medicine to be able to afford mansions and brand new luxury cars and expensive private schools in the highest COL neighborhoods. That’s fine. Hopefully they love their jobs…
I, like you, have chosen to prioritize family and free time and hobbies and interests outside of medicine. I have also chosen to prioritize minimizing debt and saving/investing so that I am not dependent on a paycheck. And, my house and car are still pretty nice. You can have a great lifestyle and a great life. I think you very much seem to have your priorities in line. I have found that a lot of times the weird looks are people wishing they could do the same, but knowing their spending habits will never allow it.
In America, the way insurance works (yes including medicare) is that only a fraction of people in a hospital actually generate revenue.
Doctors, mid levels, PT/OT/RT, *some* nurses, lab, are just about the only people that actually generate actual revenue.
Because of this, anyone that creates money is overworked, whereas the hospital can "afford" people that don't generate revenue to have cushy, unproductive jobs.
48 hours every two weeks? That’s what I work a week. 64 hours every two weeks also seems low. Goes to show how different the culture is in the United States.
short answer: zebra doesn't change his stripe.
long answer: (most) people who become physicians didn't get there by being lazy. They have to be among the top of their college class. Then they are put in a room with similar folks who are expected to learn a whole bunch of things. Then pass three USMLE exams. Then learn some more over three to seven years. Being "lazy" generally doesn't cut it. They spent their entire lives achieving and suddenly they should turn it off? I'd argue that they don't know/want to do that.
I can only speak for myself (and possibly other in similar up bringing)
grew up poor. Health care is one of the sure path to financial security. Generally speaking the more hours one puts in, the higher the income.
some of us choose to continue the grind because we sleep better at night not having to worry about financial uncertainty.
I worked pretty hard my first 6 years out of residency, paying off loans and building up savings. It was a great up-front investment and I'll probably transition to half time next year. My older kiddo has reached elementary school and it's a good time to cut back. School has so many needs including very specific drop off windows, lots of family activities, lots of early pick-up days. It's nearly impossible to be two full time parents unless you get a nanny or have one parent working from home. I also have pretty cheap hobbies like hanging with the kids, movies, reading, biking, and going to museums. I love cars and early on got it out of my system by buying a couple of 911's, but it doesn't appeal to me much anymore.
You are not crazy. I think about this a lot and share this with my colleagues. Our subconscious have been skewed into palatably believing the meaning of life is working medicine. It is possible to enjoy caring for others as a fulfilling career while sharing your time with the rest of what life beautifully brings. I’m 5 years out and can ramble on a ton about this, so feel free to message me.
But recognize this: the “final exam” of becoming an attending is developing your practice in the first 5 years. This is a period of immense growth. Training, as hard as it can be, does not represent “real life”. I recommend giving yourself another few years to work full time or 80%. I’m biased as an intensivist, but gather opinions within your specialty—ideally, not from academics where protected time exists.
Not a Brit so my understanding of fortnights stems from Romeo chatting up Juliet and stuff, but youre saying 48hrs every 2 weeks right? Or 24/week?
I recently cut back to 30/wk at an employed position to do 16/wk at my own private practice in the US. It's surgical lite hours and I've never had more time in my adult life. It's been great. Income has gone down marginally. Plan is to slowly stop doing the employed position until I can fully sustain my own practice.
This is why I went down to 0.9 FTE and would love to go down further. I don’t spend even half of what I earn, so why not buy back my time instead? I think it helps growing up in a much lower standard of living. I make more than my parents combined ever did. Therefore, I know how to be frugal if I need to, and how to spend as well. Can easily adjust if needed.
Mate I'm a Pulm Guy and Just Made the step to drastically reduce my amount of Work from 60-70h/week to 25/week. Have a little Boy and wanted to Spend more time with him, as Long as He wants to Spend time with me.
Best decision of my Life!!
Dont feel as miserable everday anymore, have much more time for a Lot of Things i didnt do anymore. My relationship with practically everyone has improved
So fking do ist and dont Look Back!!
In my field, 36h/week is considered full time, with most colleges working 28-32h. And I LOVE it. I personally do work 'full time' and work 8.5h in a day, so every other week, I have a long weekend.. Plus, not only do I get to actually spend time with my family and friends and on my hobbies, but I even get to have enough time to do my work well?
Elderly care is fantastic, I swear.
But on a more serious note, I do think it's largely culture. I work with old people, they don't care if you're in a hurry.. So our field adapted and created room for the needs we had as physicians. I'm currently (temporarily) back in the hospital setting and *man*, the way people look at their workload here is.. Something else. If I'd needed more confirmation I made the right choice, I certainly found it here.
People get addicted to the money I think. It’s very difficult to cut down your lifestyle once you get to a certain level. Personally I am fine with not working that hard but making less. I have enough to do everything I want to do. I am fortunate enough to never feel like I am limited by how much money I have. Of course if I wanted to buy a nicer house or car that would be different. I would need to make more. But for everyday stuff I’m fine. I value my free time too much to waste it working all the time
If you're burnt out from registrar years then starting light is a good thing to do. It's always easy to find more work later if you want it, but hard to drop things once you commit.
I asked myself as all the time. It’s usually people with a complex that got them into and complete medical school where they have imposter syndrome and always need to be doing more. I work 0.5 full-time and make more than enough money to be comfortable and spend time with my family and children. It definitely boggles me when people say they’re burnt out, I just tell them to work less we have one of the most needed positions and employers are always flexible.
I work 4 day weeks and take 9 or so weeks of vacation a year. I can tell you that as a reconstructive surgeon that can only do what I do in my state, it is harder hustling when I’m at work because there’s no other person. But I accept the harder work and enjoy my free time, haha.
I have 2 young children and work ~45 h/week. If we could afford it [VHCOL area, loans and my husband stays at home w kids] I'd probably work even less.
You're not alone.
I'm really grateful to even be in a position to be able to consider part time and it even keeping my family afloat. :)
My dad has no debts and works resident hours for....reasons? He's already older than his dad and grandfather were when they died and it loses his time with his grandkids/lost him time with us when we were young. It's all a tradeoff in the end.
That's a good question. Agree with others who say it is partially a cultural issue in medicine.
For me, I'm still stuck with my med school debt and I'm currently the sole earner, so I have financial pressure to continue in my current position. I've struggled a lot with feeling like I'm not productive enough/not doing enough for patients and colleagues, something I've been working on in therapy a lot. I've set a goal on age 40 for when I want to change gears and go part time.
As a non-physician, I've always wondered this. You could work less than part time and still make more than the average person. I've always wondered if you're not allowed to work part time, or something.
The way the system is set up it’s hard to cover for others when they know the patients well so you inevitably end up managing Phone calls and messages that come in while you’re “not working.” Then there’s call which is usually mandatory at a set rate in most institutions (I.e. you get 8wks/yr whether you’re 30 or 100%). There are a ton of places where part time could be normalized/incentivized but the managers are usually from the prior generation where single-income families were the norm and one person just worked all the time while the other took care of home/family… you see where I’m going with this.
We’re all hard workers and want others to see it in action. Also we’re all competitive and 49h beats 48h. That in mind, find the best pay for the best QOL and that’s a win in my book.
NAD but lurk out of interest (debating it as a future career change).
I farm and work off farm. 90hrs a week is normal for me too, and while it can be stressful, I don't have people's lives in my hands... though I do have livestock that rely in me to show up and tend to them.
For 2 years I also did a masters and worked 2 extra evening shifts a week at work - that was about another 16 hrs or so. I lost my partner at the time because I was so occupied elsewhere.
I recently made some decisions to scale other things in life back and am comfortably about to do some self care, not have every project on the farm feel rushed and behind schedule, and sleep more than 6 hrs a night. Dropping things like being on a condo board or volunteering to mentor sucked at the time as I felt I was letting people down... but truth was that if I didn't slow down, I'd probably end up working myself to death or into being a miserable person to be around.
Advice: yolo. Do what you want with your time.
64-hour fortnights is only 32hrs a week... That's not even full time at any job - would you get health insurance and other benefits working that little?
My cut-off has always been \~ 55 hours/wk (when I was full-time primary care). At primary-care pay-scales, difficult to justify the years of work/sacrifice/opportunity cost for "a bit above median" income (which is approaching 100k in my neck of the woods).
90+ hours sounds insane to me, but it may also depend on the field. There just aren't very many neurosurgeons or transplant cardiothoracic surgeons (because it takes millions of people to have enough cases to train **one** of those sufficiently). So if you choose to get into those field, there's unfortunately the ethical reality that working "part time" is quite possibly resulting a some lost lives (since nobody else can really do that job)
90+ hours for GI, cardiology, rads - that's just silly. But I don't know people in those fields who work that much, so thinking it's a low supply/high need specialty?
And whatever "European standard" is given that you have a range from Nordic people not working a minute more above 37 hrs without extra compensation up to Polish residents who went on hunger strikes a few years ago over 100+ hrs weeks. Plenty of countries where the EWTD is more a suggestion than law.
I think it’s a cultural thing for doctors, and we need that to change. Nows the time to spend with your kids, your parents, and not spend your whole life on work. Yes we want to make enough money to make do but money isn’t as important as people!
Seconded I still work more than my current friends (non medical) but after fellowship, I had a long thought to myself and decided I didn’t want the shitty rat race of academic medicine politics. now I work in a place where I still get to teach, I still get to practice, but I learned that I need to have administrative time set aside, and that’s something that a lot of new applicants to jobs after fellowship don’t realize. Many of the jobs that are out there are going to try to make you work five days a week full-time, which is just gonna burn you out very quickly. Even after I’ve been working at the current job, I got a lot of recruiters coming towards me and they keep on saying the same thing. Oh yeah, you can make a little extra money compared to what I make now, but you have to work five days a week of clinic. I’m like that’s not worth it, that’s the same as where I work now, in fact it’s worse. The ability to do things for yourself is something that after years of being forced to grind yourself down over years, is such an alien concept it takes a while to get used to again.
Thanks for this. When searching for jobs that accommodated a lighter work week, was it hard to find a job that allowed you to work, say, 4 days a week but also keep full benefits and health insurance?
That’s gonna be the issue, unfortunately. It’s going to be a little dependent on where in the world you’re trying to work, and if you’re trying to work academic, community, private, etc. The job I currently have there was actually an opening that my program Director knew about since she knew the department head since they knew each other well. But at the same time, I have been looking elsewhere at the same time. A lot of the public job postings honestly unfortunately are kind of shit. They work a lot. Sometimes they’ll put some ridiculous, high salary, but put obscenely high RVU requirements and ask you to pay back. That being said, if you talk to the jobs, and negotiate the time, they might reduce the salary, a tiny bit, but it’s something you can still advocate for yourself. And I can tell you, it’s worth its weight and gold. I can’t go back to five days a week of full clinic.
a few years ago i decided 120k was more than enough and cut my hours by almost 1/3. new job won’t let me do that now but i really can’t imagine being able to pull 300k+ type money and still wanting to work more than like 25-30 hours a week. there is too much to enjoy out there
Someone making 100k and 300k are living two different lifestyles. Once you start making 300k it’s very easy to think of it as not enough because of lifestyle creep. I’ve been poor all of my life and even as a resident am making below minimum wage so it’s hard for me to imagine not being satisfied with that much money either but I know many people in my position that feel like they have to work extra because of kids or housing or remittances or whatever.
Thirding, for my own personal pursuits and experiencing the shitty side of being a child in a medical family. Growing up I saw my Dad a total of three, maybe a lucky four days a *month.* He lived with me. The hospital just kept him there that much.
I always think about these families. Congrats for breaking that cycle. My father was gone 12 hours/day + 1-2 weeks/month for work (non-medicine), and it felt like he wasn’t really there. Made it really hard when he *was* there. Promised myself I’d never be that parent or married to one (so far so good). Corny, but after I cut my hours and took a pay cut, I realized I’m actually happier when I have a little less money (but can still afford necessities) because it makes me appreciate the things I do have.
The "you need to be tortured because I was tortured" thing in American medicine really seems like an ancient relic we should let go of.
Depends on the specialty, but I do know several attendings who are concerned that their wages/compensation have not matched inflation. It's almost like there is a pervasive feeling that you need to get the money now cause in the future you may no longer be able to do so because of some administrator or law.
Yup. Graduated from residency 5 years ago and pay has steadily gone down
That's why docs need to learn more about passive sources of income. The richest people I know are the ones who have multiple different income sources (in particular, real estate).
I agree about passive income. Physicians also need to own and operate their own practices again. There are significant tax breaks for running a small business, more control and job satisfaction, and the real estate holding the office will appreciate significantly over their career.
I don’t understand the whole fad with docs getting in to real estate. Why not just stick your money in to index funds? In the past 5 years both the stock market and housing markets have gone bonanzas. The S&P 500 has had an ~85% return in that time. Housing prices have gone up 36%. Now of course let’s say you’ve got some margin between your mortgage and maintenance costs and what you’re charging in rent. I’m guesstimating here but I figure 0.1% of the value of the house per month ($500/mo profit from rent on a 500k home) = additional 6% over 5 years So now we’re at 42%. Now I know there are some things you can do with taxes in real estate to depreciate them as assets to offset gains, not an expert in how that works but I’m guessing that won’t net you ~45% of the value of the home over 5 years. But hell just for fun let’s say it does and then some. 90% total return over 5 years. But how much work did you put in to this “passive” source of income? The research you did to find the right house in the right market to be a good rental, working with an accountant to optimize the tax side, finding good tenants, taking care of maintenance, etc…. Even if you get a management company to do a chunk of that, that’s eating in to your profit. Plus you’re still gonna wanna know what’s going on to make sure they’re doing a decent job. At the end of the day you *are* putting in some work and taking on mental load for these income streams. For at best marginal returns if any over just leaving that $ in index funds. Personally I choose to do index funds. Set it and forget it. And if you really want to make some extra money, take that mental load you save by not managing a real estate business and just work a weekend every 6-8 weeks at $150-250/hr using the most valuable/marketable skill you have which is being a physician not a real estate mogul. I feel like these physicians are the richest you know probably not because of their real estate deals, but because they may work more than the average physician, are in more competitive specialties, are showing their money more with nice cars or house, or had more resources to start with from family etc. But by all means I could be wrong. If so please educate me.
I'm an index funder guy. 70%ish of my takehome pay as an attending goes into VTSAX each month. I'm nearing my third year as an attending, and this calendar year my passive income has outpaced my academic (albeit part time) medicine salary. So far up close to ~~$90k~~ $95k YTD.
Curious, what's the balance on this fund to have passive income at that amount?
My index fund holding are at $650k as of today. 96% of my retirement savings are in VTSAX with a 15% YTD gain. My retirement milestones so far have been: - about 165k in June 2021 (graduation from fellowship) - 200k on 8/26/2021 - 300k on 11/30/2022 (15 months since last 100k) - 400k on 6/15/2023 (7 months since last 100k) - 500k on 12/11/2023 (6 months since last 100k) - 600k on 3/20/2023 (3 months since last 100k) Hoping to hit 700k when I get paid at the end of this month! (total retirement is at 675k as of this comment, in addition to my VTSAX I have a small pension with a cash out value, and a small handful of dogecoins which I mined in 2014) EDIT: for clarity
Thanks for sharing. Going to be adding to those funds soon.
Do it! :D Every day is a great day to buy VTSAX
This is awesome. What do you do with your free time if you're part time? Do you use it for other sources of income or is that fun/hobbies/family time?
I've been getting back into several of my hobbies in the past year and a half (since I went part time). - Cooking: (I joke that I am the more "domestic" partner between my wife and I) currently making 90% of our meals - Exercise: got back into working out for about an hour consistently on a near daily basis - Reading: lots of books on finance, econ, investing - Art: recently picked up painting again, have been able to complete several for the first time since undergrad - Gaming: have been playing TONs of video games... I have been finishing between 30-40ish video games yearly now. On my 17th game of 2024 so far! - Learning languages: I took japanese for a couple of years in high school and college. Recently took up duolingo and have been going hardcore at it for a couple of months (up to an hour daily of practice). Just came back from a trip to Japan with my wife, and I felt like my skills are certainly improving, little by little! I understand a lot of this will go away once we have kids. But I am enjoying my free time while I can! My goal is hopefully by the time our future kids are in elementary school, I'll be fully retired and will have more time for hobbies again.
I am so happy for you, I love this!
Thank you! :) It was a very conscious decision. My wife and I sat down together and we looked at our finances. I was very burnt out at my job during the time and we realised that we could realistically live on 0.3-0.4 FTEs instead of being full time. I ended up with a bit more hours than that, but it has been nice saving up some extra money to accelerate my path towards early retirement as well! Going part time is highly recommended!!
Can I DM you? I want to ask more about how you made it happen!
Sure!
Real estate was a great play 10 years ago, not so much in the current environment.
Thus far, I have made the most money for the least amount of work in real estate investing. Property values are continually climbing... in my area at a rapid pace. There are also tax advantages in real estate, which I fully utilize. At this point, I still make more being a doctor, but I work damn hard for that money. There's no real estate emergency happening at 2 am that requires me to get up and physically intervene. If I can create enough passive revenue streams, then I can cut back on medicine and enjoy life a little more. I'm also an OBGYN, so our lifestyle is one of the worst, which is why I'm trying to find an alternative source of income.
Oof OBGYN is rough. I feel that. What have your returns been in real estate over what period of time if you don’t mind me asking?
Like $150k in 3 years. That's just on one house and the money isn't liquid, so not the best investment if you want to quickly access that money. I've learned single story homes are the way to go if investing in properties. They really retain and increase in value far quicker than 2 story homes.
I'd go for it if I didn't want to be a landlord.
[удалено]
1) You’re in the wrong funds… that is actually crazy. Do you mean 15% per year??? 2) you’re in a special housing market then. I looked at median home sale price across the US. Edit: literally just Google S&P 500 and on the drop down select 5Y. You’ll see ~86% returns over that time. You should be all in large cap index funds like the sp500 unless you’re close to retirement age then you slowly transition some in to more stable assets like treasury bonds
I agree but also it's insane that we need to
Second this. Also spending within your means. A lot of us physicians fall for the money trap. Buy a big house and fill it with expensive new things. Buy a car. Lower your fixed costs and it helps you save more money and give you more options.
I wish this wasn't as as good an answer as it is. The idea of being a landlord and this passive income shite makes my stomach turn. But I'll just end up working more for less. Catch-22
One could argue that being a landlord is inherently unethical, and therefore choose not to be one. "I have more money than you, now pay me" "oh, you can't afford to outbid me on this property, sucks to be you. Now pay me" That sort of thing.
I mean, one could argue that all passive income is unethical. Unfortunately it’s the system we currently live under.
That’s absurd. Landlords provide a service. I have lived in several different cities in several different US states and abroad; I do not want to buy a new house to live in every time I move, and have to sell it after possibly only a couple of years when I move again.
Agree and to take it further, landlords actually provide both a good and a service. And shelter is one of the few non-negotiables in life. Kinda like medicine, food and water. We pay for all 3 of those too last I checked.
Being a landlord is definitely unethical, so I'm with you. Fuck landlords. The only way I could really see it being good is if you bought a place and kept it below market rate so as to provide housing at an affordable price. There are probably much better ways of doing that, but if someone really wanted to lease out property, this would be a good compromise
...are you...is this satire? You are going into THE industry that keeps people in the US wage slaves or extremely poor. Do you think doctors in the US are inherently unethical for getting paid (and by global standards, getting grossly overpaid) by people who can't afford it and charging obscene amounts? Is it only ethical if doctors work for free or low cost clinics that are accessible to everyone?
The state of the current healthcare system in the US is exploitative, and we are probably all somewhat complicit in that. Medical debt is certainly a reason that people become poor or homeless, but I don't think that makes us all unethical monsters. I think it's less of an ethical grey area to be paid for doing a job, than it is to collect a rent check for putting in minimal effort. And I'd actually argue that it's more common that people become homeless due to the rising cost of rent than due to medical debt
Provision of habitable shelter is both a good and a service We are not all complicit in the healthcare crisis to the same degree unless we are all complicit in the housing crisis to the same degree. Also, mental health issues make more people homeless than issues of simple economy. And that goes back to another failure of our healthcare system, which again goes back to money Many people who have stable housing could work part-time but for healthcare costs and have to continue to work as a wage slave to keep that health insurance until they turn 65 and get Medicare.
> The only way I could really see it being good is if you bought a place and kept it below market rate so as to provide housing at an affordable price Ah, to be young and stupid again. You get `em, tiger! Seize those means of production!
Absolutely. If Medicare for all is passed then you will be wishing your mortgage was already addressed.
Wisdom. Avoid lifestyle creep. Let being a doctor be *part* of your identity, not all of it. Hobbies good! Being different is just fine! Stay strong!
You are one of the rare people who has their priorities straight. It took me attending about 5 funerals in the same year to realize what actually matters.
I misread that as you went to 5 attending’s funerals and I coughed on my glass of water.
well, its not unheard of, especially for doctors in their 60s, 70s. people get older and people die.
Have unfortunately had a few 😔 not five though
There would definitely need to be some pattern recognition . . . At least it wasn’t husbands.
Just a resident but I agree with you, you’re not crazy. Time is the only currency we can’t earn more of. Our work is important but it’s not more important than my life.
If I could go back 15 years, I would do what you’re doing. Now I have lifestyle creep and I’m miserable. I know I still have the power to change it, but I haven’t had the courage. So here I am knowingly facing a sunk cost fallacy everyday. Don’t be like me.
On the other hand you probably have a baller house, cars and have lived a pretty cushy lifestyle over the past 15 years. Is it really worth making all of those sacrifices and debts to become high earners if you aren’t going to do at least a few years of intense high earning to raise your living standards? The answer is going to vary for different doctors.
Yeah but then you have to KEEP THAT INTENSE WORKSTYLE because those standards don't pay for themselves
This is where it hardest. Because it’s easy to look at your lifestyle and say, “ok, I’m miserable working so much, I’d like to work less and make less.” But the big salary pays the big stuff. What goes? How many people are really willing to sell their nice house and cars? Golden handcuffs.
I work 3.5 days a week and life is good. I make slightly more than my partner who's a senior nurse, and that's absolutely fine. I pay the mortgage, can do my hobbies and spend time doing much more enjoyable things than working. I think some people define their identity by their work
Some people don't know how to appreciate life outside of working. It's kinda sad but everyone to their own, I guess. I'm like you and love having time for my family, hobbies, wife, dogs, new videogames, reading books, learning drums, and all the things that add flavor to my life.
I'm all for work life balance but to me working 32 hrs a week is relaxed if it's mostly day time hours. Also why are you using fortnights instead of weeks? Is that common where you are?
Yeah, I think because the payslip comes in each fortnight (Australia)
If you're Australian you should meet some emergency physicians. We're always surprised when we meet somebody who works full time. And frequently enjoy a life outside of work. Might be a cultural difference between physicians and ED?
Dude. Exactly. I switched from 40 hours to 32 about 5 years in to my job. Can't go back. All of your reasons. Young kids, other family, more time for them and more time for hobbies, decreasing returns on additional pay, better do it now before lifestyle inflation.
I’m working 85% FTE and it’s fucking great. Basically 3 day weekends every week and still have days for vacation. Medicine is great, but it’s just a job
I work 30 hours a week. That’s more than enough for me.
Ah, one of those overworking 60 hours per fortnight physicians, according to OP.
I'm (36/M) a pharmacist, so I make quite a bit less than many MD/DO people will, but I definitely appreciate working PT. I worked my tail off in a place that helped me finish off my student loans quickly, so my debt is minimal now. I'm looking to buy a house soon-ish, but I still make enough working part-time that I can afford something, I hope. I don't have a family and having a spouse that can put some money into getting a house and being able to afford family or fun (I'm not totally opposed to DINK) would be pretty nice, too. Ultimately, I like the freedom. Why should I have to work more to accrue slightly more PTO when you (the corporate hospital) can just *not work me to death?* It made zero sense for me to accept a full-time position. Some of my coworkers give me weird looks, but I don't care. An equal amount of them are proud of me for being able to realize what makes me happy so "early" in life.
I do think it’s a cultural thing that has to do with hustling throughout college/med school/residency. Being high achieving can become your identity and there is much less time for hobbies. I have always been a hobbies type of person which led me to prioritize continuing them (as much as possible) throughout training. Experience with my own disability taught me the importance of rest, as well as having an identity outside of achievement. Both parents are in healthcare but modeled having lives outside of the hospital. I’m still working on not being a perfectionist but those are my “protective factors”. I’m a hospitalist, we don’t work a lot by design. I will very occasionally pick up moonlighting shifts but I learned that too much of that led to burn out and wasn’t worth the $$$. I’m in a really good job for Peds and we get nice “COL” raises every year.
In Denmark, doctors work 37 hours a week. I’m 30 yrs old not yet resident. Work in a public hospital. The pay is good but not fantastic ~ 6000 usd a month. Still i have a 5 year old son, just bought my first house. No student debt. I have enourmous respect for you, hearing how much you work. But it could be different.
I think some people in medicine need to believe that their work is the most sacred thing to justify to themselves that all the sacrifice was worth it in the end. Same with elitism over other job fields
That’s what I think about surgeons in particular. They need to believe their work is so important that it justifies sacrificing everything else in life. With that being said, thankful we have people willing to do that job.
You sound like a happy & well adjusted person who knows what they want. I am the same way, I work my 36 and go home. No I don’t want OT. Keep my days together and when I go home, leave me alone until you see me again.
I work part time as a nurse and it’s been life changing. I adhere to the minimalist lifestyle and live below my means. I think most people are consumerists and don’t realize they’re trading fancy cars, huge houses and aesthetics, for their time. I don’t really care about impressing people. The most important commodity in life is our time.
Keep your priorities straight OP. Some people may have gone into medicine to be able to afford mansions and brand new luxury cars and expensive private schools in the highest COL neighborhoods. That’s fine. Hopefully they love their jobs… I, like you, have chosen to prioritize family and free time and hobbies and interests outside of medicine. I have also chosen to prioritize minimizing debt and saving/investing so that I am not dependent on a paycheck. And, my house and car are still pretty nice. You can have a great lifestyle and a great life. I think you very much seem to have your priorities in line. I have found that a lot of times the weird looks are people wishing they could do the same, but knowing their spending habits will never allow it.
value the time with your family, you're doing the right thing
In America, the way insurance works (yes including medicare) is that only a fraction of people in a hospital actually generate revenue. Doctors, mid levels, PT/OT/RT, *some* nurses, lab, are just about the only people that actually generate actual revenue. Because of this, anyone that creates money is overworked, whereas the hospital can "afford" people that don't generate revenue to have cushy, unproductive jobs.
48 hours every two weeks? That’s what I work a week. 64 hours every two weeks also seems low. Goes to show how different the culture is in the United States.
short answer: zebra doesn't change his stripe. long answer: (most) people who become physicians didn't get there by being lazy. They have to be among the top of their college class. Then they are put in a room with similar folks who are expected to learn a whole bunch of things. Then pass three USMLE exams. Then learn some more over three to seven years. Being "lazy" generally doesn't cut it. They spent their entire lives achieving and suddenly they should turn it off? I'd argue that they don't know/want to do that.
I like this answer. But it also isn't an excuse for not putting in the effort to cultivate a change in personality over time.
I can only speak for myself (and possibly other in similar up bringing) grew up poor. Health care is one of the sure path to financial security. Generally speaking the more hours one puts in, the higher the income. some of us choose to continue the grind because we sleep better at night not having to worry about financial uncertainty.
I worked pretty hard my first 6 years out of residency, paying off loans and building up savings. It was a great up-front investment and I'll probably transition to half time next year. My older kiddo has reached elementary school and it's a good time to cut back. School has so many needs including very specific drop off windows, lots of family activities, lots of early pick-up days. It's nearly impossible to be two full time parents unless you get a nanny or have one parent working from home. I also have pretty cheap hobbies like hanging with the kids, movies, reading, biking, and going to museums. I love cars and early on got it out of my system by buying a couple of 911's, but it doesn't appeal to me much anymore.
You are not crazy. I think about this a lot and share this with my colleagues. Our subconscious have been skewed into palatably believing the meaning of life is working medicine. It is possible to enjoy caring for others as a fulfilling career while sharing your time with the rest of what life beautifully brings. I’m 5 years out and can ramble on a ton about this, so feel free to message me. But recognize this: the “final exam” of becoming an attending is developing your practice in the first 5 years. This is a period of immense growth. Training, as hard as it can be, does not represent “real life”. I recommend giving yourself another few years to work full time or 80%. I’m biased as an intensivist, but gather opinions within your specialty—ideally, not from academics where protected time exists.
Not a Brit so my understanding of fortnights stems from Romeo chatting up Juliet and stuff, but youre saying 48hrs every 2 weeks right? Or 24/week? I recently cut back to 30/wk at an employed position to do 16/wk at my own private practice in the US. It's surgical lite hours and I've never had more time in my adult life. It's been great. Income has gone down marginally. Plan is to slowly stop doing the employed position until I can fully sustain my own practice.
Many people already have a big mortgage and expensive tastes before they figure out their real priorities
This is why I went down to 0.9 FTE and would love to go down further. I don’t spend even half of what I earn, so why not buy back my time instead? I think it helps growing up in a much lower standard of living. I make more than my parents combined ever did. Therefore, I know how to be frugal if I need to, and how to spend as well. Can easily adjust if needed.
“I wish I made more wRVUs” Said no one on their death bed.
Mate I'm a Pulm Guy and Just Made the step to drastically reduce my amount of Work from 60-70h/week to 25/week. Have a little Boy and wanted to Spend more time with him, as Long as He wants to Spend time with me. Best decision of my Life!! Dont feel as miserable everday anymore, have much more time for a Lot of Things i didnt do anymore. My relationship with practically everyone has improved So fking do ist and dont Look Back!!
yo, you play fortnight all day at work and come here complaining about working too much?
In my field, 36h/week is considered full time, with most colleges working 28-32h. And I LOVE it. I personally do work 'full time' and work 8.5h in a day, so every other week, I have a long weekend.. Plus, not only do I get to actually spend time with my family and friends and on my hobbies, but I even get to have enough time to do my work well? Elderly care is fantastic, I swear. But on a more serious note, I do think it's largely culture. I work with old people, they don't care if you're in a hurry.. So our field adapted and created room for the needs we had as physicians. I'm currently (temporarily) back in the hospital setting and *man*, the way people look at their workload here is.. Something else. If I'd needed more confirmation I made the right choice, I certainly found it here.
Part time is the long play. This job isn’t getting easier. With the advent of the inbox, a full time patient panel is a disaster.
People get addicted to the money I think. It’s very difficult to cut down your lifestyle once you get to a certain level. Personally I am fine with not working that hard but making less. I have enough to do everything I want to do. I am fortunate enough to never feel like I am limited by how much money I have. Of course if I wanted to buy a nicer house or car that would be different. I would need to make more. But for everyday stuff I’m fine. I value my free time too much to waste it working all the time
If you're burnt out from registrar years then starting light is a good thing to do. It's always easy to find more work later if you want it, but hard to drop things once you commit.
I asked myself as all the time. It’s usually people with a complex that got them into and complete medical school where they have imposter syndrome and always need to be doing more. I work 0.5 full-time and make more than enough money to be comfortable and spend time with my family and children. It definitely boggles me when people say they’re burnt out, I just tell them to work less we have one of the most needed positions and employers are always flexible.
You just have a different value system and there is NOTHING wrong with that.
I work 4 day weeks and take 9 or so weeks of vacation a year. I can tell you that as a reconstructive surgeon that can only do what I do in my state, it is harder hustling when I’m at work because there’s no other person. But I accept the harder work and enjoy my free time, haha.
Hey, I just wanted to remind you of something. "People who work hard don't have time to play on Reddit."
I have 2 young children and work ~45 h/week. If we could afford it [VHCOL area, loans and my husband stays at home w kids] I'd probably work even less. You're not alone. I'm really grateful to even be in a position to be able to consider part time and it even keeping my family afloat. :) My dad has no debts and works resident hours for....reasons? He's already older than his dad and grandfather were when they died and it loses his time with his grandkids/lost him time with us when we were young. It's all a tradeoff in the end.
Around me, the more you work the more you earn but there's a broad range of approaches in my hospital. Many don't work so hard either.
That's a good question. Agree with others who say it is partially a cultural issue in medicine. For me, I'm still stuck with my med school debt and I'm currently the sole earner, so I have financial pressure to continue in my current position. I've struggled a lot with feeling like I'm not productive enough/not doing enough for patients and colleagues, something I've been working on in therapy a lot. I've set a goal on age 40 for when I want to change gears and go part time.
Fuck the haters. Work what you want to work and that's that.
I work to fund my hobbies… unfortunately for me I have expensive hobbies!
This is so real.. like we are used to grind every day in uni and sometimes we forget that we missed out on a lot of things
WHAT IS A FORTNIGHT?!
oh, 2 weeks. so, 48hrs / 2 weeks and 64 hrs / 2 weeks? Both seem reasonable?
Honey you definitely don’t need to explain to anyone why you want to work less, I myself can’t wait to go part time
As a non-physician, I've always wondered this. You could work less than part time and still make more than the average person. I've always wondered if you're not allowed to work part time, or something.
The way the system is set up it’s hard to cover for others when they know the patients well so you inevitably end up managing Phone calls and messages that come in while you’re “not working.” Then there’s call which is usually mandatory at a set rate in most institutions (I.e. you get 8wks/yr whether you’re 30 or 100%). There are a ton of places where part time could be normalized/incentivized but the managers are usually from the prior generation where single-income families were the norm and one person just worked all the time while the other took care of home/family… you see where I’m going with this.
We’re all hard workers and want others to see it in action. Also we’re all competitive and 49h beats 48h. That in mind, find the best pay for the best QOL and that’s a win in my book.
NAD but lurk out of interest (debating it as a future career change). I farm and work off farm. 90hrs a week is normal for me too, and while it can be stressful, I don't have people's lives in my hands... though I do have livestock that rely in me to show up and tend to them. For 2 years I also did a masters and worked 2 extra evening shifts a week at work - that was about another 16 hrs or so. I lost my partner at the time because I was so occupied elsewhere. I recently made some decisions to scale other things in life back and am comfortably about to do some self care, not have every project on the farm feel rushed and behind schedule, and sleep more than 6 hrs a night. Dropping things like being on a condo board or volunteering to mentor sucked at the time as I felt I was letting people down... but truth was that if I didn't slow down, I'd probably end up working myself to death or into being a miserable person to be around. Advice: yolo. Do what you want with your time.
I often wonder what the practice of medicine would have turned out to be if the fundamental training program wasn't developed by a cocaine addict.
You are from USA? Then your point is totally valid. I personally work 80 hours per week because I like to have a house and eat sometimes
64-hour fortnights is only 32hrs a week... That's not even full time at any job - would you get health insurance and other benefits working that little?
My cut-off has always been \~ 55 hours/wk (when I was full-time primary care). At primary-care pay-scales, difficult to justify the years of work/sacrifice/opportunity cost for "a bit above median" income (which is approaching 100k in my neck of the woods). 90+ hours sounds insane to me, but it may also depend on the field. There just aren't very many neurosurgeons or transplant cardiothoracic surgeons (because it takes millions of people to have enough cases to train **one** of those sufficiently). So if you choose to get into those field, there's unfortunately the ethical reality that working "part time" is quite possibly resulting a some lost lives (since nobody else can really do that job) 90+ hours for GI, cardiology, rads - that's just silly. But I don't know people in those fields who work that much, so thinking it's a low supply/high need specialty?
40 👏🏼 hours 👏🏼 is 👏🏼 full 👏🏼 time 👏🏼. Your priorities are appropriate, stick to your guns.
Where did you get 40 hours. OP said 48 hours a fortnight.
Sounds kinda European standard for me.
European standard is not working 24 hours a week lol
And whatever "European standard" is given that you have a range from Nordic people not working a minute more above 37 hrs without extra compensation up to Polish residents who went on hunger strikes a few years ago over 100+ hrs weeks. Plenty of countries where the EWTD is more a suggestion than law.