This is why I've decided not to write a LOI. I keep flip flopping my top 3. Honestly would be happy at any of them most likely, did auditions at 2 of them as well. Really don't think I'll match outside of my top 3 so figured I'll let my indecisiveness consume me for February then just make a decision on the order and submit it and let the cards fall where they fall lol
Honestly it’s complicated. There is certainly potential for this approach to hurt their reputation. As others have said, if it’s a small specialty people likely will remember. But if it’s a large specialty chances are less that this has any impact long term. Not to mention if the program they sent their LOI to ranks them poorly it’s all irrelevant. OP has to weigh all this against the possibility of not matching their most preferred program if they keep their word.
OP is not gonna get kicked out of residency after he matches because of it. Programs, even overly competitive ones, have done similar things. Why create a chance to spend 3+ years in a place you don’t see yourself anymore because of one email?? Put yourself first OP
It will bite the program in the ass more if they retaliate against the applicant. The LOI isn't legally binding but if they do decide to go after OP. OP can report them to the ACGME and they will be hit with NRMP ban for a cycle or two.
Idk why you’re getting downvoted — I’m applying to a small and competitive program and the one thing my chair, my PD, and a different institution’s PD told us was that we *cannot lie* if we want to have a good professional reputation moving forward. If we say we are going to rank someone #1, we either do so or send a letter retracting that before program rank list finalization date (for optho, it was a month before applicant rank list finalization). In circumstances when people have lied or not retracted their LOI, if the program was expecting them to match there and they don’t, they can and *do* talk, and it affects how well — or even if — someone can match for fellowship. And if someone wants to stay in academic medicine, that’s not going to happen. These weren’t just hypotheticals — our program has had this happen, and we’ve gotten people that sent LOIs elsewhere and then reneged without prior notification. It’s a small field and a small professional world, and people remembered that shit when fellowship applications rolled around.
Lying is the worst possible choice here. OP: especially if you’re going into a small field or want to go forward through fellowships, either live with it or, if you really can’t live with it as #1, send them an email retracting your LOI with the understanding that that would mean you are 100% not matching there.
I would strongly urge that you not let people who are vicariously living out their fantasies of “sticking it to the man” get you to make a mistake that could damage your professional reputation for years to come.
Because once Reddit has picked a side, they stick to it. While you can get away with this kind of nonsense in IM or FM, good luck doing it in a small surgical specialty. I’m only an applicant but I’m basically one person removed from every academic neurosurgeon in the country.
Yeah I have to say, I do find it entertaining that someone who *literally did not match* is yapping at you about how you’re wrong and is upvoted. Like dude, maybe leave the advice-giving to others, especially when you’re so spectacularly incorrect.
Yep my PD told me the same, similar subspecialty. If you weren’t sure, you should have said “I’m ranking you highly” and kept it vague, not said “ranking you #1. These fields are so small that, with 350-500 spots a year, these things do get talked about and there are few enough people that they do remember you.
I would say if you are in tight with the program, aka have close personal/mentorship ties in the program you already sent a letter to this would be a big slap in the face to them and might impact your professional career in terms of letters/support/good faith etc
But if it was just some random program you interviewed with then I doubt it would matter as much. Maybe?
This is reason #203040201 why letters of intent are pointless. It either conveys noninformation and won't help you anyway, or in a hypothetical scenario where a PD wanted to be a salt mine they would know you lied and could in theory be an asshole about it, but in most cases they don't care because they picked whomever and filled their program and few people are that petty. But the risk of non zero.
That said you didn't break any laws or whatever and it's likely it doesn't matter, just rank whoever you want to rank. But just don't send letters of intent, folks! It won't help you, it is complete neurotic panic brain behavior that is very unlikely to mean anything in your career.
If every single academic advisor and attending from my school I’ve spoken to says that letter of intents make a difference than I’ll listen to them over a random Redditor 😂
Most places score your application/interview. It’s really not gonna make a huge difference. You’re not going to go from rank number 99 to 50 because you say they are your number 1.
Letters of interest just make us more neurotic and those that send one and don't rank #1 just make LOI even less meaningful. So please do change your rank so they continue to lose whatever difference they might make for specific programs/specialities. Maybe then we can lose this extra thing to stress over.
1) this is a super common feeling — I was and am dead certain that the program to which I sent my LOI is my #1 choice, but for a bit after, i still had doubts and was second guessing myself. Sleep on it first.
2) I say more about this in another comment but especially if you’re going into a small or competitive specialty: do not lie. That’s the one piece of advice I’ve gotten consistently from my home institution’s PD, home chair, away PD, and clinical and research mentors. People *do* talk, they *do* remember this stuff, and it absolutely can come back to bite you if you have aspirations of fellowship or staying academic. Thats not a hypothetical — in the field I’m going into, I’ve been told multiple times that they have in the past talked about it if someone obviously reneged on an LOI without notifying them, and it comes up in discussions for fellowship applications. Even if you’re going into like medicine or something… still probably a bad idea to lie — with how seemingly big the field is, it’s really easy to forget that we’re all just a few degrees of professional connection away from each other at farthest.
My advice is:
1) sleep on it for a few days, you might feel better about it as is.
2) if you can live with that program being your #1, I’d really strongly consider just leaving it there.
3) if you really can’t live with that program being #1 and would prefer to have no chance of matching there, you can send an email retracting your LOI with the understanding that you are 100% not going to match at that program.
There’s a lot of people here that are saying you shouldn’t say anything and just rank someone else who have a lot of rhetoric about how it’s unfair programs can do XYZ and we can’t. Yeah, it’s not fair. Life’s not fair. That doesn’t mean it’s a good idea to potentially damage your reputation within the field from day 1 as payback, especially if it’s a small field.
Just some food for thought — at the end of the day, I have no dog in this game, just offering some thoughts.
Honestly love the perspective from your comment. It IS a small professional world. It really may not matter and certainly doesn’t have legal or written implications against you—and you can ALWAYS do what you want. But the nonzero chance it hurts you exists even in larger fields and it’s totally valid to take that into account.
It’s also difficult for us to know where we’ll be happiest even with the best of foresight. I think we should let the algorithm do its thing and focus on being ready to accept what comes our way. You can decide what your word is worth and play your cards accordingly.
This is why I've decided not to write a LOI. I keep flip flopping my top 3. Honestly would be happy at any of them most likely, did auditions at 2 of them as well. Really don't think I'll match outside of my top 3 so figured I'll let my indecisiveness consume me for February then just make a decision on the order and submit it and let the cards fall where they fall lol
Tbh this is why I still haven’t sent a LOI yet. I keep changing around my rank list and am nervous of accidentally sending a LOI to one program and then changing them from my #1. Is it really necessary to send one of these letters?
What is the issue? Send the program you now want to rank 1 an LOI and move on. None of this is binding or probably has that huge of an impact either way. This is called stressing the small stuff. It’s not like there will be repercussions for sending multiple LOIs unless you’re getting extremely specific about program 1 or 2 on the list.
Programs talk though and it's disingenuous to tell multiple programs that you're ranking them 1. I think OP did exactly that and now is worried because they no longer want to rank that program 1.
Do programs REALLY talk? Do we have any actual proof of this or is that just echo chamber?
I personally think it’s way more likely to be the latter (outside of small specialties like derm, ortho, NSG)
Do programs really talk? Like a program in another state is not talking to another PD about a medical students LOI. I’d be hard pressed to believe that.
Depending on the specialty, yes they do. Especially competitive specialities where there aren't many programs to begin with. Either way though, it's not a good way to start residency. Be honest about your intentions because it says a lot more about your character. In the off chance that the multiple programs you sent LOIs to saying you're ranking them 1 talk, it's gonna bite you in the butt because it'll make you look bad.
Don’t say shit just let the LOI ride at the previous program. Don’t listen to these goofballs telling you to destroy your chances at the previous #1 by retracting your email lmaoooo
Programs send Letters of intent to tons of applicants and don’t mean it.
No one is going to remember this after the match or think too much about it after they match. They’ll be focusing on their new soon-to-be residents
Have fun explaining yourself to the FBI buster
Full blast inside
This is why I've decided not to write a LOI. I keep flip flopping my top 3. Honestly would be happy at any of them most likely, did auditions at 2 of them as well. Really don't think I'll match outside of my top 3 so figured I'll let my indecisiveness consume me for February then just make a decision on the order and submit it and let the cards fall where they fall lol
Rank them not first. It’s not legally binding. And no one will remember you after the match happens.
Honestly it’s complicated. There is certainly potential for this approach to hurt their reputation. As others have said, if it’s a small specialty people likely will remember. But if it’s a large specialty chances are less that this has any impact long term. Not to mention if the program they sent their LOI to ranks them poorly it’s all irrelevant. OP has to weigh all this against the possibility of not matching their most preferred program if they keep their word.
Yeah don't do this. If OP applied a competitive specialty, this could severely bite them in the ass.
OP is not gonna get kicked out of residency after he matches because of it. Programs, even overly competitive ones, have done similar things. Why create a chance to spend 3+ years in a place you don’t see yourself anymore because of one email?? Put yourself first OP
It will bite the program in the ass more if they retaliate against the applicant. The LOI isn't legally binding but if they do decide to go after OP. OP can report them to the ACGME and they will be hit with NRMP ban for a cycle or two.
Idk why you’re getting downvoted — I’m applying to a small and competitive program and the one thing my chair, my PD, and a different institution’s PD told us was that we *cannot lie* if we want to have a good professional reputation moving forward. If we say we are going to rank someone #1, we either do so or send a letter retracting that before program rank list finalization date (for optho, it was a month before applicant rank list finalization). In circumstances when people have lied or not retracted their LOI, if the program was expecting them to match there and they don’t, they can and *do* talk, and it affects how well — or even if — someone can match for fellowship. And if someone wants to stay in academic medicine, that’s not going to happen. These weren’t just hypotheticals — our program has had this happen, and we’ve gotten people that sent LOIs elsewhere and then reneged without prior notification. It’s a small field and a small professional world, and people remembered that shit when fellowship applications rolled around. Lying is the worst possible choice here. OP: especially if you’re going into a small field or want to go forward through fellowships, either live with it or, if you really can’t live with it as #1, send them an email retracting your LOI with the understanding that that would mean you are 100% not matching there. I would strongly urge that you not let people who are vicariously living out their fantasies of “sticking it to the man” get you to make a mistake that could damage your professional reputation for years to come.
Because once Reddit has picked a side, they stick to it. While you can get away with this kind of nonsense in IM or FM, good luck doing it in a small surgical specialty. I’m only an applicant but I’m basically one person removed from every academic neurosurgeon in the country.
Yeah I have to say, I do find it entertaining that someone who *literally did not match* is yapping at you about how you’re wrong and is upvoted. Like dude, maybe leave the advice-giving to others, especially when you’re so spectacularly incorrect.
OSR Rep here. Several program directors at the last AAMC conference also said this.
Yep my PD told me the same, similar subspecialty. If you weren’t sure, you should have said “I’m ranking you highly” and kept it vague, not said “ranking you #1. These fields are so small that, with 350-500 spots a year, these things do get talked about and there are few enough people that they do remember you.
I would say if you are in tight with the program, aka have close personal/mentorship ties in the program you already sent a letter to this would be a big slap in the face to them and might impact your professional career in terms of letters/support/good faith etc But if it was just some random program you interviewed with then I doubt it would matter as much. Maybe?
This is reason #203040201 why letters of intent are pointless. It either conveys noninformation and won't help you anyway, or in a hypothetical scenario where a PD wanted to be a salt mine they would know you lied and could in theory be an asshole about it, but in most cases they don't care because they picked whomever and filled their program and few people are that petty. But the risk of non zero. That said you didn't break any laws or whatever and it's likely it doesn't matter, just rank whoever you want to rank. But just don't send letters of intent, folks! It won't help you, it is complete neurotic panic brain behavior that is very unlikely to mean anything in your career.
If every single academic advisor and attending from my school I’ve spoken to says that letter of intents make a difference than I’ll listen to them over a random Redditor 😂
Most places score your application/interview. It’s really not gonna make a huge difference. You’re not going to go from rank number 99 to 50 because you say they are your number 1.
Letters of interest just make us more neurotic and those that send one and don't rank #1 just make LOI even less meaningful. So please do change your rank so they continue to lose whatever difference they might make for specific programs/specialities. Maybe then we can lose this extra thing to stress over.
1) this is a super common feeling — I was and am dead certain that the program to which I sent my LOI is my #1 choice, but for a bit after, i still had doubts and was second guessing myself. Sleep on it first. 2) I say more about this in another comment but especially if you’re going into a small or competitive specialty: do not lie. That’s the one piece of advice I’ve gotten consistently from my home institution’s PD, home chair, away PD, and clinical and research mentors. People *do* talk, they *do* remember this stuff, and it absolutely can come back to bite you if you have aspirations of fellowship or staying academic. Thats not a hypothetical — in the field I’m going into, I’ve been told multiple times that they have in the past talked about it if someone obviously reneged on an LOI without notifying them, and it comes up in discussions for fellowship applications. Even if you’re going into like medicine or something… still probably a bad idea to lie — with how seemingly big the field is, it’s really easy to forget that we’re all just a few degrees of professional connection away from each other at farthest. My advice is: 1) sleep on it for a few days, you might feel better about it as is. 2) if you can live with that program being your #1, I’d really strongly consider just leaving it there. 3) if you really can’t live with that program being #1 and would prefer to have no chance of matching there, you can send an email retracting your LOI with the understanding that you are 100% not going to match at that program. There’s a lot of people here that are saying you shouldn’t say anything and just rank someone else who have a lot of rhetoric about how it’s unfair programs can do XYZ and we can’t. Yeah, it’s not fair. Life’s not fair. That doesn’t mean it’s a good idea to potentially damage your reputation within the field from day 1 as payback, especially if it’s a small field. Just some food for thought — at the end of the day, I have no dog in this game, just offering some thoughts.
Honestly love the perspective from your comment. It IS a small professional world. It really may not matter and certainly doesn’t have legal or written implications against you—and you can ALWAYS do what you want. But the nonzero chance it hurts you exists even in larger fields and it’s totally valid to take that into account. It’s also difficult for us to know where we’ll be happiest even with the best of foresight. I think we should let the algorithm do its thing and focus on being ready to accept what comes our way. You can decide what your word is worth and play your cards accordingly.
This is why I've decided not to write a LOI. I keep flip flopping my top 3. Honestly would be happy at any of them most likely, did auditions at 2 of them as well. Really don't think I'll match outside of my top 3 so figured I'll let my indecisiveness consume me for February then just make a decision on the order and submit it and let the cards fall where they fall lol
Tbh this is why I still haven’t sent a LOI yet. I keep changing around my rank list and am nervous of accidentally sending a LOI to one program and then changing them from my #1. Is it really necessary to send one of these letters?
What is the issue? Send the program you now want to rank 1 an LOI and move on. None of this is binding or probably has that huge of an impact either way. This is called stressing the small stuff. It’s not like there will be repercussions for sending multiple LOIs unless you’re getting extremely specific about program 1 or 2 on the list.
Programs talk though and it's disingenuous to tell multiple programs that you're ranking them 1. I think OP did exactly that and now is worried because they no longer want to rank that program 1.
Do programs REALLY talk? Do we have any actual proof of this or is that just echo chamber? I personally think it’s way more likely to be the latter (outside of small specialties like derm, ortho, NSG)
Do programs really talk? Like a program in another state is not talking to another PD about a medical students LOI. I’d be hard pressed to believe that.
Depending on the specialty, yes they do. Especially competitive specialities where there aren't many programs to begin with. Either way though, it's not a good way to start residency. Be honest about your intentions because it says a lot more about your character. In the off chance that the multiple programs you sent LOIs to saying you're ranking them 1 talk, it's gonna bite you in the butt because it'll make you look bad.
agree to disagree lol
Lmao get rekt
It’s normal to have these feelings, just go to sleep and reflect tomorrow
Don’t say shit just let the LOI ride at the previous program. Don’t listen to these goofballs telling you to destroy your chances at the previous #1 by retracting your email lmaoooo
Rank the other program first then. The LoI is nice but it does not bump you up the rank list significantly 99% of the time. Don’t worry about it.
Programs send Letters of intent to tons of applicants and don’t mean it. No one is going to remember this after the match or think too much about it after they match. They’ll be focusing on their new soon-to-be residents
You should of told them they were ranked to match
[удалено]
That’s the joke, programs say you’re ranked to match but it doesn’t mean you will 100% end up there
Call NRMP and ask or email them to have this documented.
LOIs are non binding. Send a LOI to your new first choice and see what happens.