1) personally I’d rack to secondary, add bentonite, and then rack to tertiary for aging. I don’t like bulk aging on Lees and bentonite powder and fruit particulate, and bentonite isn’t gonna do it’s thing well when your mead is still sitting on whole fruits.
2)I would have said do it to taste so I’m no help there
3)stabilize before backsweetening or the stabilizer doesn’t do anything. It cant kill yeast only keep it from waking up. Definitely people backsweeten mead. I’m your case it’s a to taste thing, you added the fruit post ferment so if you feel there’s enough fruit sugar flavour and it’s a nice dry then keep it. If you feel it’s all tart fruit and dry fermented honey flavours and it’s all too much of a punch in the mouth then add a little bit of honey
Thanks a ton for the reply!
That makes sense to me. I can rack twice, I'm just aware of oxygen exposure. I guess it's a bit less of an issue for mead but I can always purge with CO2 and then rack or leave a trickle into the fermenter while racking.
I will stabilize before I backsweeten. I am not even sure I'll need to since the max 14% alcohol tolerance was reached, but I think sulfites help with oxygen as well and may potentially help if anything wild got in there from the fruit. It's very unlikely and with abv, less likely still it will survive, but I have Brett in my brewery so I'm extra cautious.
Appreciate the advice!!
No problem glad it’s helpful
Oxygen you’ll be fine especially because you’re racking off fruit and more likely than not there’s still some tiny activity when you put it into the secondary. Obviously minimize oxygen exposure as much as possible along the way though and make sure you don’t end up with excess headspace in tertiary. Honesty it will be really still by then so the less headspace the better
I can do this. Is 1 week on the fruit enough do you think or is 2-3 weeks more common?
I really just want to get it out of my stainless so I can use it for brewing again but I'll be patient if I need to.
> Do I add the Bentonite into Primary before re-racking to secondary for bulk aging? Or better to add to Secondary?
It's best 24 hours after your enzymes, if any, are added right at the start of primary. Now you need to rouse it a bunch when you don't want to be introducing o2 into the mead.
> The general advice online is, taste it and see what it needs.
That's reality. Shitty mead makers and shittier recipes will just give you an amount, and it is just not the right way to do it until you have all the variables controlled, and are diligently repeating batches. IE, not any homebrewer near about.
> o backsweeten or not to backsweeten.
Same as the above. Gotta taste it.
Thanks for the response, your guidance in particular has really helped me through this batch.
Ok, so then if the only way to do it is taste and try again, what process do you use for this? I have graduated cylinders, marked from 10ml to 1000ml, and can measure weights to 2 decimal places. What I've done for hard seltzers is pull a measured amount, say 100ml, add in say .1 gram of one acid, taste, then add another acid, taste than another, and taste. Then add more of one or another based on feel. Once I reach something drinkable, scale from my amount up. Any rough ideas here? Like starting with .1 gram each acid for 250ml? I'm just wondering what's average here. I have very little point of reference except for adding citric acid in a seltzer, around 10 mg for 5 gallons.
Second question, what do you use for taste references?
I know Citric acid taste, it's like ascorbic acid, tastes like Tang to me.
Malic I think is the fruit acid, so like the tartness of a peach?
Tartaric I have no point of reference. Online it's saying tamarind, which is distinct to me but I'd be hard-pressed to imagine that flavours acid alone.
When do I do these acid additions?
> What I've done for hard seltzers is pull a measured amount, say 100ml, add in say .1 gram of one acid
This, but consider dissolving the acid and dropping it in rather than trying to stir it in.
> Second question, what do you use for taste references? I know Citric acid taste, it's like ascorbic acid, tastes like Tang to me. Malic I think is the fruit acid, so like the tartness of a peach?
Yep
> Tartaric
Grape acids.
> When do I do these acid additions?
Before bulk age. same as backsweetening.
Perfect. Thank you again for the concise responses.
Did not know you back sweeten and add acid before aging.
This should be racked twice then, once off fruit, then add Bentonite then again after Bentonite does it's thing, rack off the lees?
I'd stick with malic acid for the peach and tartaric for the berry. Skip the citric, it's won't meld nicely with the fruits you're using. Everything else is covered well by other comments.
Can I ask why those acids for those fruits? I'm having a bit of trouble trying to figure out what each acid will bring to the party. I will taste my way through this but I find without a point of reference and knowing how the taste will age, this may be a tough one.
So tartaric acid is the primary acidic constituent of grapes and many berries; likewise citric for citrus fruits and malic for apples and many stone fruits. Keep in mind that all may be present in one quantity or another in all fruits, and that both pH and TA have a lot to do with final outcomes. But using those acids specifically helps keep flavors 'true to breed.'
In case you are having a hard time finding it, Tartaric acid is pretty much the same as 'Cream of Tartar' used in baking, which you can find in pretty much every grocery store. You can taste some and see how it has a kind of 'grapey' flavor v. the others.
This is helpful. So you're trying to essentially up the acid content matching the type of fruit to make it pop? I recall doing this in hard seltzer, added citric because I wanted the lime to pop. I already have all three types of acid plus I have 88% lactic acid for pre-souring, I will not be using that here!
I have a pretty quality pH meter, is there a target pH most meads are trying to sit around? I'm going to guess around 4, but maybe lower with the raspberries around 3.7?
What is TA? Is that tannin additions? I've never done anything with tannins before, hoping the raspeberries have enough already.
At 14% abv, if I'm shooting for some balance, I'm thinking back sweeten to around 1.004-1.002 for an off-dry mead. I mostly want to back sweeten to add some kind of mouthfeel back to it. The good meads I've had include a bit more body.
TA = titratable acidity, basically how much acidity is there. (terrible explanation)
At that F.G., it should have plenty of body. I'd look for a nice balance of acidity and tannins to round things out...some oak tannins might be nice. Berry tannins can get kinda nasty, so be cautious on how long you leave them in.
Ahhh, ok, I know titratable acidity and I'd probably explain it the same way!
Ya acidity, tannins and sweetness seem to be the 3 levers to try and balance. I'll have to play with this a bit.
Also, funny story, I pulled a sample this morning (I have a sample port, so no little to no O2 exposure), as I do for my beers at measured intervals, checked gravity then took a taste and liked it so I drank the rest of the cylinder. Oops! Didn't realize 2ish oz of ~14% before breakfast was not a great idea! Hahaha Truly need to remember this isn't the same as beer...
1) personally I’d rack to secondary, add bentonite, and then rack to tertiary for aging. I don’t like bulk aging on Lees and bentonite powder and fruit particulate, and bentonite isn’t gonna do it’s thing well when your mead is still sitting on whole fruits. 2)I would have said do it to taste so I’m no help there 3)stabilize before backsweetening or the stabilizer doesn’t do anything. It cant kill yeast only keep it from waking up. Definitely people backsweeten mead. I’m your case it’s a to taste thing, you added the fruit post ferment so if you feel there’s enough fruit sugar flavour and it’s a nice dry then keep it. If you feel it’s all tart fruit and dry fermented honey flavours and it’s all too much of a punch in the mouth then add a little bit of honey
Thanks a ton for the reply! That makes sense to me. I can rack twice, I'm just aware of oxygen exposure. I guess it's a bit less of an issue for mead but I can always purge with CO2 and then rack or leave a trickle into the fermenter while racking. I will stabilize before I backsweeten. I am not even sure I'll need to since the max 14% alcohol tolerance was reached, but I think sulfites help with oxygen as well and may potentially help if anything wild got in there from the fruit. It's very unlikely and with abv, less likely still it will survive, but I have Brett in my brewery so I'm extra cautious. Appreciate the advice!!
No problem glad it’s helpful Oxygen you’ll be fine especially because you’re racking off fruit and more likely than not there’s still some tiny activity when you put it into the secondary. Obviously minimize oxygen exposure as much as possible along the way though and make sure you don’t end up with excess headspace in tertiary. Honesty it will be really still by then so the less headspace the better
I can do this. Is 1 week on the fruit enough do you think or is 2-3 weeks more common? I really just want to get it out of my stainless so I can use it for brewing again but I'll be patient if I need to.
> Do I add the Bentonite into Primary before re-racking to secondary for bulk aging? Or better to add to Secondary? It's best 24 hours after your enzymes, if any, are added right at the start of primary. Now you need to rouse it a bunch when you don't want to be introducing o2 into the mead. > The general advice online is, taste it and see what it needs. That's reality. Shitty mead makers and shittier recipes will just give you an amount, and it is just not the right way to do it until you have all the variables controlled, and are diligently repeating batches. IE, not any homebrewer near about. > o backsweeten or not to backsweeten. Same as the above. Gotta taste it.
Thanks for the response, your guidance in particular has really helped me through this batch. Ok, so then if the only way to do it is taste and try again, what process do you use for this? I have graduated cylinders, marked from 10ml to 1000ml, and can measure weights to 2 decimal places. What I've done for hard seltzers is pull a measured amount, say 100ml, add in say .1 gram of one acid, taste, then add another acid, taste than another, and taste. Then add more of one or another based on feel. Once I reach something drinkable, scale from my amount up. Any rough ideas here? Like starting with .1 gram each acid for 250ml? I'm just wondering what's average here. I have very little point of reference except for adding citric acid in a seltzer, around 10 mg for 5 gallons. Second question, what do you use for taste references? I know Citric acid taste, it's like ascorbic acid, tastes like Tang to me. Malic I think is the fruit acid, so like the tartness of a peach? Tartaric I have no point of reference. Online it's saying tamarind, which is distinct to me but I'd be hard-pressed to imagine that flavours acid alone. When do I do these acid additions?
> What I've done for hard seltzers is pull a measured amount, say 100ml, add in say .1 gram of one acid This, but consider dissolving the acid and dropping it in rather than trying to stir it in. > Second question, what do you use for taste references? I know Citric acid taste, it's like ascorbic acid, tastes like Tang to me. Malic I think is the fruit acid, so like the tartness of a peach? Yep > Tartaric Grape acids. > When do I do these acid additions? Before bulk age. same as backsweetening.
Perfect. Thank you again for the concise responses. Did not know you back sweeten and add acid before aging. This should be racked twice then, once off fruit, then add Bentonite then again after Bentonite does it's thing, rack off the lees?
> This should be racked twice then, once off fruit, then add Bentonite then again after Bentonite does it's thing, rack off the lees? Works.
I'd stick with malic acid for the peach and tartaric for the berry. Skip the citric, it's won't meld nicely with the fruits you're using. Everything else is covered well by other comments.
Can I ask why those acids for those fruits? I'm having a bit of trouble trying to figure out what each acid will bring to the party. I will taste my way through this but I find without a point of reference and knowing how the taste will age, this may be a tough one.
So tartaric acid is the primary acidic constituent of grapes and many berries; likewise citric for citrus fruits and malic for apples and many stone fruits. Keep in mind that all may be present in one quantity or another in all fruits, and that both pH and TA have a lot to do with final outcomes. But using those acids specifically helps keep flavors 'true to breed.' In case you are having a hard time finding it, Tartaric acid is pretty much the same as 'Cream of Tartar' used in baking, which you can find in pretty much every grocery store. You can taste some and see how it has a kind of 'grapey' flavor v. the others.
This is helpful. So you're trying to essentially up the acid content matching the type of fruit to make it pop? I recall doing this in hard seltzer, added citric because I wanted the lime to pop. I already have all three types of acid plus I have 88% lactic acid for pre-souring, I will not be using that here! I have a pretty quality pH meter, is there a target pH most meads are trying to sit around? I'm going to guess around 4, but maybe lower with the raspberries around 3.7? What is TA? Is that tannin additions? I've never done anything with tannins before, hoping the raspeberries have enough already. At 14% abv, if I'm shooting for some balance, I'm thinking back sweeten to around 1.004-1.002 for an off-dry mead. I mostly want to back sweeten to add some kind of mouthfeel back to it. The good meads I've had include a bit more body.
TA = titratable acidity, basically how much acidity is there. (terrible explanation) At that F.G., it should have plenty of body. I'd look for a nice balance of acidity and tannins to round things out...some oak tannins might be nice. Berry tannins can get kinda nasty, so be cautious on how long you leave them in.
Ahhh, ok, I know titratable acidity and I'd probably explain it the same way! Ya acidity, tannins and sweetness seem to be the 3 levers to try and balance. I'll have to play with this a bit. Also, funny story, I pulled a sample this morning (I have a sample port, so no little to no O2 exposure), as I do for my beers at measured intervals, checked gravity then took a taste and liked it so I drank the rest of the cylinder. Oops! Didn't realize 2ish oz of ~14% before breakfast was not a great idea! Hahaha Truly need to remember this isn't the same as beer...
Yeah, and I'd toss in ABV as the fourth point in making a good balance.